Ratings, Scheduling, and Watching for Cancellation/Renewal

[jhlipton]

Since Fox does own the show, we're just about 100% guaranteed to get season 4. Even if it sustains the same ratings it did on Monday night, the financial benefits of syndication will outweigh anything else.

 

Beharie and Mison,as relative new-comers probably have the standard 5 year contract.  I don't see them having much room to renegotiate between Season 3 and 4, so, all other things being equal, if Season 3 does fairly well, Seasons 4 and 5 should be a bit more certain.  I wouldn't begin to speculate past Season 5.

[Julia]

True, but I am also banking on the fact that some of those Monday viewers, who choose The Voice or Bachelor or Scorpion over SH (subsequently DVRing SH), will show up to live watch on Thursday and hopefully choose SH. Some may choose Scandal instead, but there is the potential for an increase. But there could be a small drop too. We'll see.

Last Thursday the five broadcast networks added up to 26.8 million viewers at 9 PM (assuming that the viewers for the two hour Bones finale were fairly constant at 4.4). Only 7.44 million of those viewers were watching Scandal. I think there's a lot of room for Sleepy Hollow to grow without eating Scandal's lunch.

It will depend on how the show does too - if SH improves (it can only improve, to be honest, after season 2) and gets some good buzz, and Scandal continues to not do so good (apparently people have commented it's declining in storyline, etc), then there is a chance for SH to grab some more Scandal viewers.

Scandal is becoming increasingly problematic, JMO, and its viewers have gone from twelve million to less than seven and a half over the course of a season. I think it would be a very good thing for Olivia Pope to be more like Abbie Mills, and, bluntly, for Shonda Rimes to have to compete with a show about a strong, independent woman who doesn't allow herself to be defined by the men she's sleeping with.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Julia

[Criminey]

I watched the first 2 seasons of Scandal and loved it. I stopped watching into season 3. I thought the story line made Olivia weak. The work she was doing became her battles with her Dad, Fritz and Jake all with a goblet of red wine clutched in her hand. I also didn't like Fritz's character. Actually thought Mellie was the most sympathetic character on the show.

Also liked Blacklist. But I dvr'd it.

Thursday night will become Sleepy Hollow night for me. Can't wait till season 3!

[netlyon2]

My experience as a Scandal viewer mostly tracks with @Criminey, although I was fond of Fitz and only tolerated Mellie.  I quit because the show seemed unwilling to let its characters grow and progress; it was becoming formulaic.  I have friends who still watch it (about 50/50 gender split), but I haven't been the least bit tempted.  I even stopped following most of the cast because they would clog up my Twitter feed on Thursday nights.

 

With Sleepy Hollow, I put everything else on the backburner (namely MNF and The Voice), even through the awfulness of Season 2.  Seeing the previews leading into SH is what got me watching Gotham (plus good buzz from coworkers), so that strategy worked with at least one viewer.  I continue to have 0% interest in watching Bones, but I'll follow SH right on down to Thursday nights just fine.

 

I think I'm actually encouraged by the fact that the network execs are looking at the actual genres of these shows, rather than treating "black show" as a genre of its own.  I do wonder what impact Orlando's departure will have in terms of viewers who watched live to engage with him on social media.  Then again, I don't think he regularly live-tweeted the way that Scandal's cast does, so it might not have an effect at all.  Besides, since the parting appears to be without rancor, I could definitely see him staying involved as a fan, the way he does with Supernatural and The Flash.  Now that I think on it, he's one of the people who got me watching Orphan Black!

Edited May 18, 2015 by netlyon2

[blixie]

 

I don't think he regularly live-tweeted the way that Scandal's cast does

 

He definitely did, both airings East Coast/West, and usually every week. 

[phoenics]

Last Thursday the five broadcast networks added up to 26.8 million viewers at 9 PM (assuming that the viewers for the two hour Bones finale were fairly constant at 4.4). Only 7.44 million of those viewers were watching Scandal. I think there's a lot of room for Sleepy Hollow to grow without eating Scandal's lunch.

Scandal is becoming increasingly problematic, JMO, and its viewers have gone from twelve million to less than seven and a half over the course of a season. I think it would be a very good thing for Olivia Pope to be more like Abbie Mills, and, bluntly, for Shonda Rimes to have to compete with a show about a strong, independent woman who doesn't allow herself to be defined by the men she's sleeping with.

I'm sorry but this is naive. Scandal may not be what it once was, but it's still a juggernaut compared to SH and it's bracketed by two hit shows, Grey's and HTGAWM.

And there is an overlap in audiences. AND Scandal fans are all over social media - in even larger numbers than SH - far larger.

And even though I don't watch Scandal for Olitz (they are my NOTP), a lot of people do, and Shonda just pushed them back together at the end of this season - a lot of fans will come back for that and many that left probably aren't going to switch to SH. I convinced some of my friends to watch, but most gave up SH - but still watch Scandal. Soapy stuff tends to trump sci-fi stuff every time.

This isn't good - I'm not even going to try to sugar coat it. I'm a hardcore SH fan, but even I would live watch Scandal over it because I don't want to miss the social media aspect while the show airs. You can't really get that back after the fact. The best part is seeing everyone's reactions.

Fox just made a HUGE mistake. I'm so angry, lol.

Edited May 22, 2015 by phoenics

[savinggrace]

I hate to be a glass-half-empty sort of person but scheduling SH on Thursday pretty much assures this will be the show's last season. If you have confidence in a show you'll schedule it during at time that best assures success. That time for SH was Monday nights and unfortunately Goffman and Co. squandered it Now they've blatantly replaced it with Minority Report which, by no coincidence, contains the magic White male/Black female lead combo that seems to be doing well in the ratings. If Minority Report does well, Fox can safely cancel SH. It's going to suck to have the new showrunner come in and clean up the mess Goffman made only to have the show cancelled.

Edited May 24, 2015 by savinggrace

[HalcyonDays]

I hate to be a glass-half-empty sort of person but scheduling SH on Thursday pretty much assures this will be the show's last season.

 

Well I am going to disagree, but somewhat agree. I agree, in that this will be the last season for SH, if they don't significantly improve it. The fandom is loyal, but impatient. If it doesn't bring back the "magic" in a few episodes, then we'll all jump ship and move on.

 

However, I don't think scheduling any show on Thursday is a death sentence at all. Scandal, The Big Bang Theory, Elementary, the Blacklist and Grey's Anatomy all air Thursday, and have for a long time, and they are doing quite well in the ratings. I agree with an article that I posted earlier - that Gotham was not the right lead in for SH - completely different demos. Honestly, it makes sense. If it was moved to a Friday or Saturday, then yeah. Death sentence. But Thursday is a good date to pick.

[DearEvette]

...moved from Media thread...

 

Like I said somewheres else... the bigger push for more diversity and more and more leading ladies or major characters of color will inevitably lead to just this sort of scheduling.  If the trend toward casting actors of color continues in major roles (and this is a good thing!) then more and more viewers and are going to have to decide just this sort of thing.  Networks can not use that to avoid pitting these shows against each other.  Quite the opposite in fact, if they can feel that they can peel off viewers from one demographic they will do it in a heartbeat (altho I don't think this is what Fox is necessarily doing here, but if they do succeed in pulling WOC viewers away from Scandal you'll bet they'll claim that was their plan all along).  You can blame Fox for pitting a struggling show against a power show.  But you can't blame them for pitting one show with a black actor against another. 

 

If this trend does continue, it will become less  about supporting an actor of color, and more about supporting a show that is entertaining and serving those characters well.  And in my highly unscientific poll with a fairly small data set,  I know of quite  few black female viewers who watch both shows and are choosing to watch Sleepy Hollow.  And mostly it is because they are kinda over Scandal and it is because of how Olivia is being written and how the story seems to be under-serving her. I mean we complain on SH how Goffmann was pushing his Katrina agenda, but at least Abbie was still unquestionably the heroine of the show.  But I would argue that Shonda has been just as guilty of pushing Mellie-as-heroine agenda as well.  She has been writing a Mellie/Olivia as Madonna/Whore since Season 3.  Mellie as rape victim/martyr/mother while Olivia is being shown as sexual currency between her father & two boyfriends.  Believe me, this does not go over well and in my small data set.  LOL.

 

I think we can only wait and see, but I don't see Scandal as an unscalable mountain. And if FOX actually promotes Sleepy Hollow during it's highly rated shows (hint* Empire* hint) then it might even have a fighting chance.

[jhlipton]

If this trend does continue, it will become less  about supporting an actor of color, and more about supporting a show that is entertaining and serving those characters well. 

 

That day (or season) can not come soon enough for me!  I'm so ready for an "embarrassment of riches". 

[possibilities]

I thought putting a show on Thursday nights was a vote of confidence. Thursdays are the highest revenue night for ads, right? So any show that gets put on Thursday is believed by the network to have the greatest potential to bring in high-value viewers and thus ad money. No matter what the competition, they are just not going to put a show on Thursdays that they think is weak. They will always go with their biggest potential performers.

[Moonsky]

Reply to @phoenics response from the Sleepy Hollow in the Media thread:

MOONSKY, ON 12 MAY 2015 - 2:28 PM, SAID:
FOX moved SH to Thursdays & it will compete in the same 9PM timeslot with Scandal but it also replaced a black actress led scifi/fantasy show SH with another black actress led scifi/fantasy show Minority Report staring Meagan Good airing on Mondays @ 9PM. So there will be three dramas on FOX now led by black actresses. SH, Empire, & Minority Report.

 

@phoenics replied:

Yeah - I don't care. Without Shonda Rhymes' Scandal, a network likely NEVER would have cast NB as Abbie on this show. It just wouldn't have been done - at all. This just feels utterly disrespectful to me and puts fans of both shows in a quandary, for no good reason.

 

At least there are now 5 shows with black lead actresses - but man - I HATE that this is up against Scandal.

 

Kerry Washington being the lead for Scandal did a lot for getting more black actresses/actors in other lead & important supporting roles but if viewers expect more black actresses/actors to be cast in these roles in the future on many networks, then these shows will be competing with each other for all types of viewers that fall within the black demo. This upcoming fall tv schedule will have new shows starring Megan Good, Aunjanue Ellis, Anika Noni Rose, Morris Chestnut, Wesley Snipes, Mehcad Brooks, & more in prominent roles. TV programmers for each network can’t only be worried that one or more shows starring black actresses/actors will go up against Scandal or HTGAWM because their show on another network also attracts viewers from the black demo during the same timeslot. These programmers also have to take into account other demos, so unless they get information stating that almost every single viewer of a show falls into one demo, then they aren’t going to only target that demo because they can’t put all of their eggs into one basket.

 

SH lost viewers to Scorpion which also aired on Mondays at 9PM & falls within similar genres but they also don’t share the same percentage of viewers in each demo which is something network programmers have to take into account when marketing each show. Some of those viewers that SH lost to Scorpion because of the direction season two went into might decide to give season three of SH another chance now that it’s on another night & talk from FOX of the show returning more to what made it successful in season one. All of those lost viewers to Scorpion & other shows consisted of viewers of all demos including some black female viewers, so FOX will be trying to see if they can court members of all of those demos back for SH’s season 3. Also, network programmers know that they will share some viewers among different races & ages within the same timeslot with other networks. That’s why so many viewers are happy that they get to DVR shows that air at the same time these days.

 

I hate to be a glass-half-empty sort of person but scheduling SH on Thursday pretty much assures this will be the show's last season. If you have confidence in a show you'll schedule it during at time that best assures success.

 

Moving any show to a new day & time can be risky. Sometimes it works & other times it doesn’t. Even though Bones is an old show (so ratings have naturally declined over the years), it still pulls in decent ratings for FOX. After the network moved Bones from its usual Monday night spot & replaced it with Gotham, they placed it on Wednesdays at 8 for the 2014 fall tv schedule & once American Idol was ready to premiere its new season during the winter schedule, FOX once again moved Bones to Thursdays at 8. If I’m remembering correctly new episodes also aired for a period of time on Friday nights either during the 2013/2014 or 2014/2015 season. Fans of that show still found it even with it being moved all over the place & it will be on the FOX schedule again come Thursday nights at 8 this fall.

 

I think we can only wait and see, but I don't see Scandal as an unscalable mountain. And if FOX actually promotes Sleepy Hollow during it's highly rated shows (hint* Empire* hint) then it might even have a fighting chance.

 

Scandal still gets good ratings but it’s not some juggernaut that every tv executive is afraid of putting their shows against. Also, even some Scandal fans understand that it’s not unbeatable because I remember when Empire continued to break records, one of the reasons why some black female fans of Scandal hoped that Empire stayed on Wednesdays was because they were worried about what it would mean for Scandal if Empire was to hypothetically move to Thursday nights. So even some Scandal fans have fears about its ability to hold onto the black female demo if it were to go up against certain shows during its Thursday 9PM timeslot.

 

Do I think even before the move was officially announced FOX already understood they will lose some of their live black female viewers to Scandal but they still hope to hold on to a portion of that demo that still keeps them competitive within it? Yes.

 

Do I think FOX hopes that some ex-Scandal watchers from the black female demo might decide to live watch SH during season 3? Yes.

 

Do I think FOX hopes that some fans from the black female demo that live watch Scandal simply out of habit or even those who love the show who also live watched SH when they were on different days might consider live watching SH during season 3 & DVR Scandal instead? Sure.

 

But I don’t think FOX believes they need SH to win a majority of the black female demo & compete with Scandal's overall ratings for SH’s move to Thursdays to be considered a success. We don’t know what the numbers need to look like for FOX to consider season 3 of SH a success but maybe FOX is looking for a few episodes during the season to pull in numbers of 5 million or more & demos of 1.7 or more. After losing millions of viewers during season one, those were the kind of ratings that SH was still able to pull in for a few episodes during the first month of season two before the ratings were between 4.3-4.7 million & 1.3-1.6 demos for the majority of the season. Even the highest ratings during season two of SH would be considered low for shows airing on ABC during their Thursday 8-11 block but the lowest SH ratings would still be better than Backstrom which FOX previously had following Bones on Thursdays at 9PM. Backstrom was pulling in ratings of around 3.5 million viewers & demos of 0.8, so if SH can do better than that & hold onto a portion of Bones viewers which after many seasons was still able to get them at least anywhere from 4-5 million viewers & demos of 1.0-1.2, then FOX might consider that a season 3 where SH brings in ratings that stay above 4 million viewers & 1.3 demos in its new timeslot, good enough to receive a season 4. Also, since FOX owns SH they have a little more incentive to make sure the show survives its third season.

 

I thought putting a show on Thursday nights was a vote of confidence. Thursdays are the highest revenue night for ads, right? So any show that gets put on Thursday is believed by the network to have the greatest potential to bring in high-value viewers and thus ad money. No matter what the competition, they are just not going to put a show on Thursdays that they think is weak. They will always go with their biggest potential performers.

 

Yes, that is why you’ll see a lot of ads for department stores, restaurants (ex: Olive Garden), & the latest movie releases during Thursday night prime time hours. There are a lot of viewers during these hours among all network/cable channels & advertisers are trying to attract the members from each demo that are most likely going to be out on Friday nights & weekends spending money at these type of establishments.

 

But even if SH’s ratings fall slightly on Thursdays, FOX could still charge equal or more for ad space than it did on Monday nights. For example, say there was a scenario where FOX’s internal data showed that at a minimum, they could expect season 3 of SH to average 4.5 million viewers & 1.4 demos if left on Mondays but could fall to around 4 million viewers & 1.3 demos on a Thursday. FOX could still charge equal or higher for ad space for the Thursday night spot (even if they lost half a million viewers) because those viewers who are potential weekend spenders would have ads from various companies fresher in their minds then ads from much earlier in the week.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Moonsky

[DearEvette]

SH lost viewers to Scorpion which also aired on Mondays at 9PM & falls within similar genres but they also don’t share the same percentage of viewers in each demo which is something network programmers have to take into account when marketing each show. Some of those viewers that SH lost to Scorpion because of the direction season two went into might decide to give season three of SH another chance now that it’s on another night & talk from FOX of the show returning more to what made it successful in season one. All of those lost viewers to Scorpion & other shows consisted of viewers of all demos including some black female viewers, so FOX will be trying to see if they can court members of all of those demos back for SH’s season 3. Also, network programmers know that they will share some viewers among different races & ages within the same timeslot with other networks. That’s why so many viewers are happy that they get to DVR shows that air at the same time these days.

 

 

Showbuzz daily came out with a set of audience maps just recently for the 2014-2015 tv season that breaks down the viewership for each primetime show based on age groups & gender.  It further color-codes the map based on whether that viewership falls within the low, middle or high range for that network.

 

In looking at the audience map for Sleepy Hollow, the picture emerges that it falls in the middle of the Fox viewership re: ratings but skewes higher the older the audience.  It also skews male by a comfortable margin.  Only in the 21-24 age group does female viewership outpace male viewership for Sleepy Hollow. 

 

Interestingly, Scorpion's age/gender map looks disturbingly like Sleepy Hollow's even to the point that it is in the same 21-24 age group that women skew higher than men.  Hence it really looks like they share the same audience make-up.  Scorpion skews male in much the same margin that SH does, and it falls comfortably in the middle of CBS viewership range.  So imo, SH's ratings got hit by the one-two punch of a bad storyline and competition that attracted the same demo.  So it is no surprise their ratings took a hit.

 

Meanwhile over on ABC, no surprise at all, but Scandal skews overwhelmingly female.  I mean, really, really female.  It outpaces male viewership by a big margin. 

 

In a surprise (to me at least), The Blacklist also skews heavily female.    I was sure that would be a a male skewing show.

 

The Fox audience map is here: http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/audience-map-fox-primetime-full-2014-2015-season.html

[HalcyonDays]

^^ Those audience maps are really fascinating, actually, DearEvette. So the move to Thursday makes even more sense. All of those males who switched to Scorpion, because of a bad season 2 and another decent show, now can tune in Thursday's for SH. Some of those same males will had the choice of NFL Football on Monday or Thursday ( and the Thurs games usually suck) so more viewship for SH. They may do what I do - tape both, fast forward through commercials and stoppage in play. It works nicely, actually, and you can finish the show, and watch the last hour or so of football live.

 

I really thought though that SH skewed really high female. Only because I think 9/10 twitter and tumblr and forum comments I've read are all females. I think jhlipton is the only male here out of the rest of us posters in the SH board, so figured that was similar to how SH was overall.

 

So again, this move by FOX - it almost seems like they know what they are doing. They "rebooted" the show, moved it to a popular day and time, where ad revenue is most expensive, scheduled it so the lost males could come back, and are banking on at least SOME of the Scandal viewship choosing SH live. Makes sense to me. Personally, I don't watch Scandal, like Gotham and am female (smack dab in the middle of the coveted demo) so maybe I am the odd demo, but there are a fair bit of us out there wanting our SH back. Also, the few wife-lovers will most likely not come back, but they are a very small percentage that won't affect the overall show that much.

[Moonsky]

Showbuzz daily came out with a set of audience maps just recently for the 2014-2015 tv season that breaks down the viewership for each primetime show based on age groups & gender.  It further color-codes the map based on whether that viewership falls within the low, middle or high range for that network.

 

Thanks for providing the link to the breakdown in the gender/age demos for SH & Scorpion. I already knew that they shared some similar stats in that regard which is why some SH viewers were upset before season 2 started that both shows were airing at the same time, especially since both shows shared executive producers & appealed to some of the same age/gender viewership. What I meant by them not necessarily sharing the same percentage of viewers in each demo is the breakdown within the age/gender viewership. The same percentage of black female viewers at age 30, don’t necessarily watch Scorpion at the same percentage as they are watching SH. Just like the same percentage of Asian male viewers at age 18 aren’t necessarily watching SH at the same percentage as they are watching Scorpion.

 

That’s why even if SH & Scorpion share general gender/age stats, they won’t be marketed in the same way because race also plays a part in it as well. So for example, even if there are black female viewers that both watch SH & Scorpion, FOX would be the one to more likely spend more ad money in publications like Essence or Ebony to promote SH because of Nicole Beharie & other black women who have or will likely play roles on the show because of Nicole being cast in the lead (like Jenny, their mother, Grace), while if CBS got data that showed that even though Scorpion has some black female viewership, that amount might not be enough for them to spend a lot of ad money in publications like Essence or Ebony if it really isn’t going to have that much of an effect on their ratings.

[jhlipton]

I really thought though that SH skewed really high female. Only because I think 9/10 twitter and tumblr and forum comments I've read are all females. I think jhlipton is the only male here out of the rest of us posters in the SH board, so figured that was similar to how SH was overall.

This is why you can't count on fora and other social media for an accurate picture of viewer data.

I think that the black female audience is important, but it's not the only demographic. If SH picks up males (regardless of color) more than it loses black females, then it will do fine.

[DearEvette]

Thanks for providing the link to the breakdown in the gender/age demos for SH & Scorpion. I already knew that they shared some similar stats in that regard which is why some SH viewers were upset before season 2 started that both shows were airing at the same time, especially since both shows shared executive producers & appealed to some of the same age/gender viewership. What I meant by them not necessarily sharing the same percentage of viewers in each demo is the breakdown within the age/gender viewership. The same percentage of black female viewers at age 30, don’t necessarily watch Scorpion at the same percentage as they are watching SH. Just like the same percentage of Asian male viewers at age 18 aren’t necessarily watching SH at the same percentage as they are watching Scorpion.

 

That’s why even if SH & Scorpion share general gender/age stats, they won’t be marketed in the same way because race also plays a part in it as well. So for example, even if there are black female viewers that both watch SH & Scorpion, FOX would be the one to more likely spend more ad money in publications like Essence or Ebony to promote SH because of Nicole Beharie & other black women who have or will likely play roles on the show because of Nicole being cast in the lead (like Jenny, their mother, Grace), while if CBS got data that showed that even though Scorpion has some black female viewership, that amount might not be enough for them to spend a lot of ad money in publications like Essence or Ebony if it really isn’t going to have that much of an effect on their ratings.

 

Yeah, I'd be curious how race plays into that mapping because I do think it has bearing on marketing and  would give an even more nuanced picture.  I can't imagine black women being as into Scorpion as Sleepy Hollow.  But then again black female sff fans and Blerds in general are an underserved market.  Black fandom for Game of Thrones for instance, is soo frickin' robust and there are no black main characters.  So it is alll story that is pulling them in!  I think S1 of Sleepy Hollow was on the cusp of tapping into that market but S2 really frittered it away by sidelining their POC cast members and then dumbing down their mythology.  If they can rally for S3 I think they might be able to gain some momentum in that demographic again.

 

I wasn't even thinking about Scorpion at all when I started looking at the audience map.  I was more concerned about how the possible demo overlapped with Scandal & Blacklist.  Short sighted of me, but I always felt that SH's loss of audience was due solely to how Sleepy itself had floundered, I never once thought of Scorpion stealing SH's audience.  But looking at the Scorpion map made it evident that it was actual real demo competition for Sleepy.    Frankly, even though Scandal is a clear ratings winner I am thinking that Sleepy will hold it's own.

[phoenics]

^^ Those audience maps are really fascinating, actually, DearEvette. So the move to Thursday makes even more sense. All of those males who switched to Scorpion, because of a bad season 2 and another decent show, now can tune in Thursday's for SH. Some of those same males will had the choice of NFL Football on Monday or Thursday ( and the Thurs games usually suck) so more viewship for SH. They may do what I do - tape both, fast forward through commercials and stoppage in play. It works nicely, actually, and you can finish the show, and watch the last hour or so of football live.

 

I really thought though that SH skewed really high female. Only because I think 9/10 twitter and tumblr and forum comments I've read are all females. I think jhlipton is the only male here out of the rest of us posters in the SH board, so figured that was similar to how SH was overall.

 

So again, this move by FOX - it almost seems like they know what they are doing. They "rebooted" the show, moved it to a popular day and time, where ad revenue is most expensive, scheduled it so the lost males could come back, and are banking on at least SOME of the Scandal viewship choosing SH live. Makes sense to me. Personally, I don't watch Scandal, like Gotham and am female (smack dab in the middle of the coveted demo) so maybe I am the odd demo, but there are a fair bit of us out there wanting our SH back. Also, the few wife-lovers will most likely not come back, but they are a very small percentage that won't affect the overall show that much.

Maybe - except this is the map for Season 2 of Sleepy Hollow. Looking at the ratings, and how they plummeted, I would be interested in seeing if the female viewership simply fled with the horrible writing in Season 2.

Maybe Fox does know what they are doing - but a season 2 map for Sleepy HOllow wouldn't really prove that without looking at the Season 1 map to see if we lost a ton of female viewers.

I'll adopt a wait and see attitude - but I don't believe yet that Sleepy Hollow skewed as heavily male until this crapfest of a season when we ran off most of the female viewership.

[phoenics]

This is why you can't count on fora and other social media for an accurate picture of viewer data.

I think that the black female audience is important, but it's not the only demographic. If SH picks up males (regardless of color) more than it loses black females, then it will do fine.

As long as the writing doesn't alienate women like it did last year (which I suspect it did, hence the drop in female viewership assumption). Sometimes shows write horribly (and in a sexist way) to appeal to male fans, which automatically alienates female fans.

I hope SH doesn't go down that route.

[Moonsky]

I wasn't even thinking about Scorpion at all when I started looking at the audience map.  I was more concerned about how the possible demo overlapped with Scandal & Blacklist.  Short sighted of me, but I always felt that SH's loss of audience was due solely to how Sleepy itself had floundered, I never once thought of Scorpion stealing SH's audience.  But looking at the Scorpion map made it evident that it was actual real demo competition for Sleepy.    Frankly, even though Scandal is a clear ratings winner I am thinking that Sleepy will hold it's own.

 

Before Scorpion even aired I knew that it would take away some of SH’s viewership because they involve similar genres (scifi/fantasy), had the same executive producers, & it was a new show, so there were people that were going to naturally be curious about Scorpion & probably watch the first couple of episodes. The storyline issues that SH had during season 2 did play an additional role in loss viewership to Scorpion & other shows though.

 

People usually look at a situation from their point of view mostly, so some black female viewers who watch Scandal & SH might see this new shared timeslot as being completely problematic because they want to support both black female leads by watching their shows live. A television programmer though will also notice that SH & Scandal are shows that belong in two different genres so they won’t necessarily compete for the same overall viewership and even if they share some viewers in specific demos that doesn’t mean they share them at the same percentage. Empire & Scandal are both dramas with soapy elements & they don’t share the entire black female demo, so there is no way that two shows like SH & Scandal do. FOX has to take into account other races, genders, age groups, as well as courting scifi/fantasy fans that aren’t interested in Scandal when trying to market SH on Thursday nights.

 

If FOX had put Empire opposite Scandal, there would be even more cause for concern when it comes to who would win the black female demo because those two shows fall within similar genres & are more likely to share a closer percentage of that demo than SH & Scandal when put opposite each other. But if FOX for example took the black male demo into account, Empire’s percentage of that demo would dominate Scandal’s percentage if the two shows aired opposite each other & since SH is a scifi/fantasy show it will probably draw a higher percentage of black males when aired opposite Scandal, so this is why networks can’t only be concerned with targeting one demo for a show because the same racial demo but different genders viewing habits might differ between similar & different genres.

 

Also, there were some media/fans who wanted SH moved from Mondays but they didn’t want it going up against shows like The Flash, Supernatural, & Arrow which all air on Tuesday & Wednesday because they are all within similar genres. And even when shows are within similar genres & have black actresses in prominent roles, that still doesn’t mean they share the same black female audience because there are black women that watch both SH & The Flash while others watch one & but not the other.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Moonsky

[vanarnd1]

One thing that works in the favor of switching timeslots is the fact that Sleepy Hollow is more or less being rebooted from Season 2. The show is trying to gain back fans who gave up on the show last season and there is no cliffhanger that requires anybody to have extensive knowledge of past episodes or to have been following the show in it's Monday timeslot. If FOX promotes SH effectively and highlights the Ichabbie chemistry accordingly, they can get old viewers to give the show a second chance in the new timeslot and hopefully draw in new viewers as well. And as others have said the Thursday TV competition overall is not as tough as Monday night so I think there is potential for SH to at least tread water and remain steady in the ratings, which is all that is really required for the show to be renewed.

 

In the end, I think it all comes down to what TPTB and the creative team come up with for Season 3. The show is at a crossroads where it can still be salvaged, but it can't afford to have a repeat of Season 2.  FOX seems to support the show and will want to see it succeed, so it is really in the hands of the new leadership to take advantage of the opportunity they have.

[fantique]

Maybe - except this is the map for Season 2 of Sleepy Hollow. Looking at the ratings, and how they plummeted, I would be interested in seeing if the female viewership simply fled with the horrible writing in Season 2.

Maybe Fox does know what they are doing - but a season 2 map for Sleepy HOllow wouldn't really prove that without looking at the Season 1 map to see if we lost a ton of female viewers.

I'll adopt a wait and see attitude - but I don't believe yet that Sleepy Hollow skewed as heavily male until this crapfest of a season when we ran off most of the female viewership.

Actually I always assumed SH was geared more towards dudes. Then again, I always assume my favourite shows are because I am half a bro inside a girl's body (the other half is an old asian lady who is thoroughly unimpressed by everything). I actually think that the inclination would be bigger towards male if we looked at season one, especially for the casual viewers that checked out. The promotion for season 2 wasn't really something guys would enjoy I think. They promoted Hawley and the love triangles a lot and there is nothing better to send a male audience running. As the season went on, it got more about CFD and Ichabod stuck between his wife and work wife... not fun. I think that the moment from which they tarted to sex up Katrina was when they realised the male viewers were going away being "what the hell? She can't do anything fun!". She was in the way of the action so they thought if she showed boobage, that would retain those fleeing viewers. Also remember, SH started fairly early into the Fall schedule so people could watch, not be impressed, and then switch to other shows once those started. The first few episodes had weird pacing and felt slow even if stuff was happening so I am sure a lot of male viewers who were there for the fun action twistory would have signed off. Of course that is mostly that casual audience that sticks around as long as it's fun and don't endure when it gets boring but that's the biggest percentage of any show that doesn't just have cult following à la SPN.

Edited May 28, 2015 by fantique

[jhlipton]

they thought if she showed boobage, that would retain those fleeing viewers.

If they were trying to show boobage, they failed miserably.  I've seen more boobage in a Little House on the Prairie episode (well, maybe not).  They went for cleavage:

 

rather than boobage

and, as a connoisseur of boobage, I can tell the difference.  

NOTE: The search for pictures was done purely for scientific research! 

[DJG1122]

jhlipton, due to your diligent research, you are now our resident boobage expert!

[DeLurker]

Update that resumé!

[jhlipton]

It's a task which I will reluctantly take on, in the name of SCIENCE!!!

The things I do for y'all....  SMH

 

 

Nicole has lot of topless pictures from her scenes in Shame (which I won't post here), but if they really wanted to up the boobage meter (to about 15 out of 10)... I give you Lyndie:

 

I believe the technical term for this picture is "Dayummmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!"

Edited May 28, 2015 by jhlipton

[DeLurker]

In the words of Thomas Dolby and jhlipton - She blinded me with SCIENCE!

[Sparkling Beth]

I think that the moment from which they tarted to sex up Katrina was when they realised the male viewers were going away being "what the hell? She can't do anything fun!"

This is one of the best typos I've ever seen.

[HalcyonDays]

Uh, I know you're dying to post boobage, jhlipton, but I don't think that picture is Lyndie Greenwood. The face doesn't look right and she definately does not have breastesess that big (thank god).

[LilWharveyGal]

I don't think that picture is Lyndie Greenwood. The face doesn't look right...

 

I was about to say... Am I the only one looking at her face? :)

[Julia]

I was about to say... Am I the only one looking at her face? :)

 

Well, I was thinking: downside, she's not going to be able to move her arms above the elbow when she's swimming. Upside, she seems as if she'd float well.

[caseylane]

I'll adopt a wait and see attitude - but I don't believe yet that Sleepy Hollow skewed as heavily male until this crapfest of a season when we ran off most of the female viewership.

Can't speak for others but in my daughter's house her husband (42) fights for SH while she (33) fights for Scorpian. He usually wins. I was surprised to hear this. He's an engineer so I thought for sure he would be more of a Scandal fan but I guess the SciFi loving fan in him made the decision.

[SnarkyTart]

Uh, I know you're dying to post boobage, jhlipton, but I don't think that picture is Lyndie Greenwood. The face doesn't look right and she definately does not have breastesess that big (thank god).

Google fu says that it's fashion designer Andrea Iyamah, from her retro swimwear line.

[HalcyonDays]

Can't speak for others but in my daughter's house her husband (42) fights for SH while she (33) fights for Scorpian. He usually wins. I was surprised to hear this. He's an engineer so I thought for sure he would be more of a Scandal fan but I guess the SciFi loving fan in him made the decision.

 

Well, I've mentioned before that hubby loved the watch the show with me, but a few episodes into season 2, he bailed over the whole Katrina story BS. The heaving bosom and corset wasn't enough to keep him interested, however much the showrunner thought it would. In fact, for a few weeks after that, he kept asking me "have they killed her off yet?" He also bailed way before Deliverance, that's how much his disliked the storylines with K. And he was the one who introduced me to the show. So there you go. Basically, lots of people like the show, regardless of sex or skin colour or preferred genre!

 

He hasn't seen the final two episodes yet and I have not told him the good news (dead K and H). Before season 3 starts, I'm going to force him to watch those two and see if I can get him back into the show.

 

Google fu says that it's fashion designer Andrea Iyamah, from her retro swimwear line.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Knew it wasn't her, but wasn't going to Google to confirm cause who knows what I'd find! Thanks for risking it for us, SnarkyTart.

[DeLurker]

Uh, I know you're dying to post boobage, jhlipton, but I don't think that picture is Lyndie Greenwood.

He literally was blinded by SCIENCE! if that is what kids today are calling breasticles.

[jhlipton]

Uh, I know you're dying to post boobage, jhlipton, but I don't think that picture is Lyndie Greenwood. The face doesn't look right and she definately does not have breastesess that big (thank god).

 

Actually, I'm only going to post boobage in context, and will restrain myself at that.  I know that not everyone enjoys boobage (or breasticles or any of the other "99 Words for Boobs")

 

Here is a nice picture of Lyndie:

 

[fantique]

This is one of the best typos I've ever seen.

Freudian type... wow. I am not even changing it. Beautiful.

 

Uh, I know you're dying to post boobage, jhlipton, but I don't think that picture is Lyndie Greenwood. The face doesn't look right and she definately does not have breastesess that big (thank god).

This word cracks me up... I only hear it once but I keeled over in laughter. 

[HalcyonDays]

This word cracks me up... I only hear it once but I keeled over in laughter. 

 

You're probably not old enough to remember, but I stole it from a character David Alan Grier played in one of the sketches in a 90s show called In Living Colour. Hilarious hilarious show. Nothing like it today, unfortunately.

[Julia]

You're probably not old enough to remember, but I stole it from a character David Alan Grier played in one of the sketches in a 90s show called In Living Colour. Hilarious hilarious show. Nothing like it today, unfortunately.

They should be running that somewhere, if only for the where are they now factor. Can you imagine what it would cost today to make a series starring the Wayans family, Jim Carrey, and Jamie Foxx, with Jennifer Lopez and Carrie Ann Inaba as gogo dancers?

Edited May 30, 2015 by Julia

[jhlipton]

You're probably not old enough to remember, but I stole it from a character David Alan Grier played in one of the sketches in a 90s show called In Living Colour. Hilarious hilarious show. Nothing like it today, unfortunately.

 

That would be from the Men on Film segment.  Whenever there was something that could even slightly be seen as gay, they would give it "two snaps up" (one was "in a circular formation" and one was "ina Z formation -- I still use the second).  Whenever there was something that seemed straight (like their review of "Little Women"), they would say, in unison, Hated it!"

That was a FUN show!

 

It will be interesting to see who, if anyone, comes from Neil Patrick Harris' new variety show.

[Amethyst]

You're probably not old enough to remember, but I stole it from a character David Alan Grier played in one of the sketches in a 90s show called In Living Colour. Hilarious hilarious show. Nothing like it today, unfortunately.

 

I loved that show and I remember that sketch!  "Booked on Phonics."

 

[HalcyonDays]

That's the one, Amethyst! I believe DAG played a guy named Tiny, who was in prison and referred to woman's "breastesses". For some reason, I still remember that after all these years.

 

It wasn't from the Men on Film segment, jhlipton, but the Men On...was one of the most hilarious sketches ever. And Men on Cooking....my god, dead with laughter. Hilarious!

 

Man, we should get back on topic. TV Line just announced that there will be a SH panel at this years San Diego Comic Con in July. Hopefully they will announce the premiere date for season 3 then. I am hoping it will be early September, but it all depends on how the writing and filming is going to go. Apparently they start filming in July.

[HalcyonDays]

Double-posting.

 

FOX releases Fall 2015 premiere dates.

 

Sleepy Hollow season 3 (along with Bones) premieres Thursday October 1st, 2015 @ 9:00 - 10:00 pm EST

 

*Sigh* I have to wait that long...I thought for sure it would be the week before, because that when most of the shows are premiering. FOX, why you make me wait?

 

ETA: Show, you'd better give me a good Halloween episode this season, dammit. October 29th it would air, and I want some creepy Halloween. I mean, come on! Sleepy Hollow out of all shows has never had a Halloween episode. It's just not right.

[Yolapukka]

Yay! 

[Blackhoney]

Why is Friday and Saturday considered a death sentence in TV? I know it didn't use to be that way. Lots of hit shows through the years have aired on Friday nights. Is it just assumed everyone is out at the club on those nights? Have the execs not figured out the world is full of ppl who stay home. I personally don't do anything different on Friday and Saturay nights that I don't do Sunday through Thursday. My butt is usually home 9pm at night.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Blackhoney

[orza]

While some older people and those with children may be at home in front of the TV on Friday and Saturday evening, the preferred demographic is, apparently, not. Friday is the big night for new movie and theater openings. People go on dates, to parties, visit with friends, attend sporting events, have their religious life, etc, and do all the others things that are not feasible if they have to get up early the next day for work and school. Not everyone is a homebody.

 

TV used to be something special back when most people only had a few channels to choose from and no means to record shows for later viewing. That has all changed. People can view their shows when it suits them and are not tied to the broadcast schedule so lots of them take advantage of that flexibility.

[HalcyonDays]

^^ To add to orza's awesome reply, yeah, Friday and Saturday nights, lots of the desired demo of 18-49-year olds go out. Whether to a movie, a club, a restaurant, bar or someone else's house, they are not home to watch the TV show. Add to that the ability to DVR, a Friday or Sat show is most likely going to not have live viewers, but lots of DVR viewers later on.

 

However...interesting TV watching trivia. Back in the day, when the X-Files aired, the first three seasons aired Friday nights at 9:00 pm. After that, they moved to Sunday's at 9:00 pm that now - what with Mad Men, The Walking Dead and other shows - is a very popular schedule slot.

 

Anyway, guess what the Friday viewership was? It started at 12 million and hit almost 20 million before the Sunday switch. People were going out back then, but only had VCRs (if you had it). That doesn't happen now, does it? Empire is considered a MAJOR hit (deservedly) and getting numbers like this. It's ranked #5 overall, and #2 in the 18-49 demo. Guess what the X-Files was ranked? Started around #50 to #60, and at it's peak, ranked #11. Crazy eh, the change in ratings and what's considered a success.

[Dizzychickstar]

I wonder how the TGIF run would factor into the convo. I know I was glued to the set for Urkel, Step by Step, Perfect Strangers, and Full House as an 80's kid.

[Rina99]

I wonder how the TGIF run would factor into the convo. I know I was glued to the set for Urkel, Step by Step, Perfect Strangers, and Full House as an 80's kid.

 

Those shows aired when overall audience was what mattered, not the all-mighty 18-49 demo.  There was also not nearly as much competition from cable, and now Netflix and Amazon.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Rina99

[fantique]

this would have made me happy before today.

 

http://brownsista.com/gallery-nicole-beharie-2015-foxupfronts/at the bottom it has a poll on wether people would watch between Scandal and SH. But that was back in May.

Edited July 16, 2015 by fantique