S02.E07: XV

[WatchrTina]

Tonight’s episode was not perfect but parts of it were excellent!

 

THE GOOD

John Silver is a liar and the thief and cares about no one but himself and yet he is just about the most compelling character on the show.  I like him because he is completely consistent in his self-serving deviousness.  Also, he is just so damn clever. 

 

Billy!  I was hating his plan to sell-out Flint.  So glad to learn he played me (and Dufresne.)

 

Charles “Motherf@#$%^g” Vane.  That scene in the tunnel was incredibly tense and all because the threat was credible.  When I saw that torchlight at the end of the tunnel I was strongly reminded of the arrival of the Balrog in the mines or Moria.  The scene between Eleanor and Vane with the bars between them – that was just amazing.  So much tension.  It’s difficult for me to be a member of TeamVane right now because he is the scariest thing on New Providence Island.

 

Ooooh that plot twist.  Say, Max do you know a captain with a small crew who might be interested in going after that gold?  Why yes, yes she does.  (Just a hunch here but I’m betting Jack’s crew will get over their issues with Anne when he tells them 5 million pesos are up for grabs.)

 

THE BAD

Still chronically irritated by the writing for Max and Anne.  As soon as Max left Anne alone at a table downstairs I knew she’d be approached by a customer because, you know, it’s a whorehouse!  I’m sure the writers were hoping the scene upstairs between Anne and the customer would be just as tense as the scene in the tunnel  between Vane and Eleanor but, no.  I was just too annoyed by the premise to get caught up in the suspense around “what will Anne do now?”

 

THE UGLY

Please tell me those figures standing on the road at the very end weren’t zombies.  I hate zombies.

 

Okay just kidding – I’m sure they aren’t zombies. I’m sure it’s just the beginning of a meeting between Eleanor’s terrible, horrible, no good, very bad father and some co-conspirators in a plot to screw Eleanor over.  Again.

Edited March 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Garnett7]

Geez, so much double-crossing going on this episode I lost count of it all.

 

I actually hope that Richard does betray Eleanor. It would serve her right. She's no problem betraying anyone who cares for her or people she claims to care about. It's time she got it back in spades.

 

I loved that scene with her and Vane. I hope he follows through on his threat and destroys her and her plans for Nassau.

 

Silver -- I just can't stand the little weasel. I hope Flint or Billy or someone figures him out.

 

Billy -- Well played, Mr. Bones, well played. I loved it but a part of me still thinks he's playing the long con. Not sure what his endgame is just yet. 

 

Anne -- Wallowing in self-pity because she's having to sit a few plays on the bench. Meh, whatever.

 

On a shallow note, Flint has the most beautiful, disarming smile. On an even more shallow note, Tom Hopper's arms are freaking insane. Thank you, wardrobe department, for putting him back in those nice tight shirts.

[WatchrTina]

 

Silver -- I just can't stand the little weasel. 

I felt the same way last season but this season I like him.  I think it was the whole Flint & Silver show from the first few episodes that won me over.

 

 

On a shallow note, Flint has the most beautiful, disarming smile.

Flint doesn't -- James McGraw does.  As soon as he smiled he looked 10 years younger and was the man from the flashback scenes again. Amazing transformation.

[Ripley Rules]

John Silver is a weasel, but he has brass balls.   I don't think he was right in trusting Max, though.  Her ego exceeds her intelligence and she could very well end up leaking the information to the wrong people.

 

This episode really highlighted how almost everyone (except maybe Miranda Barlow) is out for him/herself.   

 

Even though Billy's decided that his interests are best served by siding with Flint, his speech to the crew was incredibly ironic- he said he wanted to spare his "brothers" from torture at the hands of the Royal Navy, but did he really believe that Flint (or most of his fellow crew members for that matter) wouldn't torture him if they felt it was necessary?

 

Still not caring much about Anne Bonny.

 

As for Dufresne, he's become totally irritating and useless.  He should have been killed by Billy when he agreed to recruit the eight men to mutiny against Flint.  

Edited March 8, 2015 by Ripley Rules

[maraleia]

 

Max cleans up after a massacre. News from the outside world changes everything for Flint and Silver. Eleanor risks her life for the sake of her future. Bonny faces a crossroads. Dufresne pushes Billy to act.

 

[ganesh]

Silver had me fooled. I didn't think the gold was still there. I suppose that's the actual Treasure Island? I actually never read the book.  I'm glad the girl recognized Miranda. I'm looking forward to her being more active now.

 

This was a kind of move the pieces around episode, but it was still interesting.

[Neurochick]

I actually hope that Richard does betray Eleanor. It would serve her right. She's no problem betraying anyone who cares for her or people she claims to care about. It's time she got it back in spades.

I loved that scene with her and Vane. I hope he follows through on his threat and destroys her and her plans for Nassau.

 

 

See I don't because I detest Vane.  He reminds me of guys in bars who think they're hotter than they really are; and Vane always looks like he smells bad; I mean does he ever wash those extensions?  

[attica]

God, most of the scenes in this episode were so fucking slow! We have to watch Bonny's tentativeness one fucking footstep at a time? Ugh. Even the progress through the tunnels could have been done at double-time, seeing as how they're trying to outrun discovery and they already spent a good half hour reading Miranda's freaking letter! (Also: don't most padlocks just, um, lock when you close them? Aren't keys only needed to open them, not close them? Ugh, even if I'm wrong, that scene should have been played breathlessly, not like a goddamn staged debate.)

 

On the other hand, I'm pleased to know Capt. Jack will get his chance at the gold. That should be fun.

[ganesh]

Olde tymey padlocks required a key to lock and unlock. I'm surprised Elanor found the right key in two tries.

 

I'll say what we're all thinking: Vane smells like ball sweat. 

 

I do think that he'll factor into the gold somehow because he always seems to be able to survive; cf., being buried and left for dead.

[orza]

Vane looks no worse than anyone else. Hygiene standards were quite different back then.

[raven]

The tunnel escape annoyed because they spent so.much.time. talking in the cell, all I could think was that if they hadn't done that, they'd be gone.  Where is the urgency to escape??? Ugh.  No let's read the letter and talk, talk, talk!  And then Ashe's daughter just stands there and watches Eleanor struggle to pull the gate open for the longest time.  Annoying.

 

I want to care, but I just can't about Bonney's identity crisis.  I don't know if it's the actress or what, but for me the interest just isn't there.  Maybe she works better playing off Jack.  It was good (and surprising to me) to hear that Max does apparently care about her and is going to these lengths because Anne did the same for her.  I also liked Max putting her foot down about Anne with with one of her workers, but adding more gently that anyone who's concerned to come and see her. She knows they're scared/worried but isn't doing a complete dictator act.  Max is doing pretty well at being in charge.  

 

 

 

John Silver is a weasel, but he has brass balls.

Heh, I can't really blame him.  He came this far to get the gold, he doesn't care about an independent Nassau or about Flint's dreams.  He's always been clear about that.  I don't remember for sure, I think he also knows that Flint killed Gates because Gates was in his way; he knows Flint would do the same to him.  I'm very interested to see how his partnership with Max and Jack plays out.  If Flint hadn't looked so surprised at Silver telling him the gold was gone, I would have thought maybe Flint planted the story (as Silver suggests) to get the men all behind him again.

 

 

I’m sure it’s just the beginning of a meeting between Eleanor’s terrible, horrible, no good, very bad father and some co-conspirators in a plot to screw Eleanor over.  Again.

Interesting I thought maybe it was Vane's men intercepting Eleanor's father to throw a wrench it what they're trying to do.   Vane is just going to want to blow all their plans up now.

Edited March 8, 2015 by raven

[WatchrTina]

 

I thought maybe it was Vane's men intercepting Eleanor's father to throw a wrench it what they're trying to do.   Vane is just going to want to blow all their plans up now.

Oooh, I like that idea.  I originally assumed that Daddy Dearest was expecting to meet someone.  If you are right then maybe what's happened is that the horses sense someone is there in the road and won't go forward, so that's why he has to get out and look around   I'd love it if it is Vane & Co waiting in ambush but if it is, Vane must have done some amazing fast-talking to get out of the situation Eleanor left him in.

 

Another possibility is that it is Dufresne, Hornigold and a couple of random guys they enlisted who are blocking the road.  I can't think WHY it would be them but they are definitely another loose thread in the tapestry of this show.

Edited March 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Neurochick]

I think this show illustrates brilliantly two very different philosophies.  One is thinking about long term, an independent Nassau, a place that the British won't mess with; the other is thinking about short term, getting the gold.  One thing Flint was right about last season was that his men would spend their share of the gold in like, a day or so and then wind up broke.  That's what happens with many people who win things like Lotto; they get the money and in a few years they're broke again.  

 

A friend inherited money from her father, she said getting the money was one thing, but knowing how to spend it was another (she purchased property and made even more money).  I think Silver does have an eye on the future, I think he'd take the gold and be smart about it, not just spend it on women and booze.  I think that Max might be interested in an independent Nassau though.

[raven]

WatchrTina, unless Vane's men don't know yet?  Vane would probably not be in a hurry to tell them. 

 

 

I think Silver does have an eye on the future, I think he'd take the gold and be smart about it, not just spend it on women and booze.

I agree Silver would want to set himself up somehow.  He said he doesn't want to be a pirate, I can see him running Nassau or some other business.  

 

There are people who want to lead and people who want to be led.  The "spend the gold" types don't have long term plans because they can't look that far ahead, or like what they're doing, or know that in their profession they could be dead tomorrow.  They may not be capable of doing anything else so they don't care long term but they'll follow someone they respect.  Flint needs these types though because he needs to be backed as strongly as possible; he understands what they need to keep them on his side.  Even with that, I think Flint could do a better job articulating his vision; a lot of what he says boils down to "trust me" to those not in his immediate circle.

[WatchrTina]

 

I think Flint could do a better job articulating his vision

I think Flint's vision (which was originally Lord Hamilton's vision) is the thing I am struggling with the most here.  I just don't buy the idea that most pirates would go legit if given the opportunity.  John Silver is a long-term thinker and he's already said he never wanted to be a sailor much less a pirate, but even John has no interest in going legit until (and unless) he makes a big score to set him up for the rest of his life. I presume a lot of the pirates are like people who work in organized crime or drug gangs nowadays.  I'll admit I don't know any of them personally but I suspect that people who make their living from crime look down on people who go "legit."  They think their lives are boring and sad and much less lucrative.  

 

Is Flint's plan that all those pirates would become merchant mariners?  We already saw two crews converted to that last season and they weren't happy about it -- and they were the two least-productive crews.  Does he think they will become laborers on the plantations?  Or set up shops in the town to ply their trade (if they have one that is marketable)?  I can't see that happening. I just don't get how pardoning the pirates is supposed to work.  John's great speech notwithstanding, I don't understand why Flint's crew is backing this play.

Edited March 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[raven]

It's true, the pardoning plan assumes a lot from the pirates.  Are they really backing Flint's plan though?  They were when it was to retrieve the gold and they may have gone with Hornigold if we had gotten to that vote.  Like Silver said, they want to be paid.  I don't know that they are willing to sit and wait, no matter what Billy may say.  They may be expecting money from delivering Ashe's daughter.

 

I guess some would be happy to get out of pirating but probably most wouldn't.  There's probably a lot like Vane, who would look down on "legit".  So I'm not sure even Flint has thought this all the way through, except for getting Eleanor on his side.  Maybe that's why he hasn't really detailed it.  It's not the process, it always comes down to the people, and I don't know if he's thinking about that.  Whatever Silver's planning should be a real wake-up call.

[Garnett7]

Oh, yes, Eleanor "rescuing" Abigail was one badly written escape. They sit there and chatted forever, reading letters and reminiscing about the past. I was like, "Chat later, get out of there now if your plan is to escape".  Then Abigail stood there like a lump doing nothing while Eleanor strugged to get the door open. Geez.

 

I also thought Silver was telling the truth at first about the men reporting the gold was gone. My first thought was perhaps Billy broke and told the Navy what prize Flint had been looking for and they went searching for it. I wasn't expecting Silver to have conned the other two into lying. He's slick but I can't wait for it to backfire on him.

[Fable]

This show just kills me!  Everyone is double crossing everyone, and yet I can't pick a side.  I love all these dirty double dealers! 

[Tabasco Cat]

This episode was a snoozefest. The plotlines keep up the suspense that big things are going to happen, but there is virtually no payoff on any of it. Returning for the Urca gold was going to be front and center at the start of the season, at least that's what the S1 cliffhanger led me to believe. Then there was going to be a huge battle for the fort. That didn't happen. And now I can't say I care what happens to Eleanor's father (if that was Hornigold and Dufresne ambushing his carriage there at the end). I don't care what happens to Eleanor, either. I find Max to be an incredible bore. Jack is the only one out pirating at the moment, and we didn't even see him this episode. 3 left before the end of the season? I seriously almost fell asleep watching this episode, not sure if I can stand another 3 episodes leading up to another cliffhanger for which there wil be no payoff after waiting another year. Yeah..... no.

[Ravenya003]

Whew, I just caught up on this entire season over the last two nights.

 

Reading everyone's comments over these threads, it's amusing just how starkly opposed everyone's opinions are. There are plenty of "shades of grey" casts out there, such as Vikings and Game of Thrones, but everyone seems to be more-or-less on the same page about the favourite characters and the most hated characters. Here, on the other hand? Any given character can either be loved or hated. 

 

As a fan of the original Treasure Island, I love watching the likes of Flint, Billy and Silver, and knowing where they're all going to end up far down the track. I won't give anything away, but you can already see the seeds of what will eventually happen to Flint and Silver being carefully sown. Also, I'm convinced that Max will end up as Silver's wife. She fits the description given in the books, and they already seem to have a rapport based on sneakiness and the closest thing to "trust" between two people that you'll see on this show.

 

I imagine that Eleanor locking the door on Vane was the equivalent of Flint killing Mr Gates last season: the point of no return, in which she has to sacrifice something precious for the sake of the bigger picture (though arguably she's done that already with Max). In an earlier episode, Max asks Vane: "would you like to know how I no longer care about her?" and he said "no." Something tells me he'll be asking her for the answer before season's end. 

 

Amongst all the back-stabbing and double-crossing, it was nice to get a little bit of genuine kindness in the way Miranda greeted Abigail. Poor girl. 

 

And I had to laugh at the score when Silver starts telling Max about the fate of the crew protecting the Urca gold: dozens of men dying of some tropical disease ... and the music is all upbeat and triumphant. Win for the pirates!

 

Still wondering if Mary Read will ever turn up. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by Ravenya003

[DarkRaichu]

1. Am I the only one thinking Eleanor's dad was meeting with the Brits ? He was the original weasel afterall

 

2. The only way Flint's plan would work was to have the pirates' services utilized by the Brits.  Ie. in exchange for survival, they would leave all Brits merchant ships alone and do whatever they want with the Dutch, Spaniards, French, etc.  Win win.

 

And yes, I played too much Pirates! PC game way back then :grin:

[ganesh]

Or, the Brits would contract them out to pirate the Dutch, etc. If the pirates get caught, the Brits have deniability. The Brits might also have exclusive rights to Nassau or take a certain cut every month. 

[WatchrTina]

 

2. The only way Flint's plan would work was to have the pirates' services utilized by the Brits.  Ie. in exchange for survival, they would leave all Brits merchant ships alone and do whatever they want with the Dutch, Spaniards, French, etc.  Win win.

I'm reading a trilogy set in roughly the same time frame -- The Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson -- and last night I was introduced to a character who is a "privateer" for France.  Basically he is a tame pirate who only sacks the vessels of enemy states and who turns his takings over to France.  I had forgotten that kind of thing existed.  So yeah, I suppose the pirates who still want to go marauding on the high seas could be turned into privateers.  But that only works if Great Britain or Spain takes over the island and I thought Flint's plan was for the island to remain independent.  Isn't that what he's selling to Eleanor?  Or is his plan to be welcomed into the warm embrace of Britannia but somehow he and Eleanor remain in positions of power? I still don't get his end game.

[ganesh]

It seems like I was describing privateers. 

 

I don't think they want Nassau to be an independent nation. I think the cabal over there would be fine being a Brit territory, but they want autonomy. 

[Pogojoco]

Yeah, privateers were pretty useful in the Spanish, Flemish, English, French etc battle for power. And the term is slippery, one country's privateers is a pirate to another. Francis Drake was one of Elizabeth I's best privateers, to the point that she knighted him. The Spanish king offered 20 000 ducats (or 4 million pounds in today's money) for someone to take him out. Henry Morgan (of rum fame) was one, too. He apparently used priests as human shields and tortured people for info about booty- that's pretty pirate-y. 

 

This was a very quiet episode. Whispering chats and fires. 

[ulkis]

I want to care, but I just can't about Bonney's identity crisis.  I don't know if it's the actress or what, but for me the interest just isn't there.  Maybe she works better playing off Jack.

 

For me - shallow alert - it was the constant lip curl. She's calmed down on it the past couple of episodes but before, combined it with the hat that covers half her face, all I saw this walking lip curl.

Edited March 30, 2015 by ulkis

[GreyBunny]

THE BAD

Still chronically irritated by the writing for Max and Anne.  As soon as Max left Anne alone at a table downstairs I knew she’d be approached by a customer because, you know, it’s a whorehouse!  I’m sure the writers were hoping the scene upstairs between Anne and the customer would be just as tense as the scene in the tunnel  between Vane and Eleanor but, no.  I was just too annoyed by the premise to get caught up in the suspense around “what will Anne do now?”

 

THE UGLY

Please tell me those figures standing on the road at the very end weren’t zombies.  I hate zombies.

 

Okay just kidding – I’m sure they aren’t zombies. I’m sure it’s just the beginning of a meeting between Eleanor’s terrible, horrible, no good, very bad father and some co-conspirators in a plot to screw Eleanor over.  Again.

 

I wish they were zombies, it would have livened things up a bit!

 

Agree about Max and Anne.  Anne went from badass to pathetic (I doubt the real Anne Bonny would have wallowed in self pity for getting pushed aside for a moment).  Max is just annoying, I can't even get past the actress's whiny voice and fake accent.

 

I also hate that they've ruined the character Dufresne.  He was great in season one but went downhill in season two.  I can't believe he'd be dumb enough to fall for Flint's obvious ruse to retake the ship, even after discussing it.  At the very least he should have known to be confident and ruthless when talking with the captain of the ship he hunted.  And then the got suckered AGAIN - this time by Billy.  Ugh!  The character just fell apart.