S02.E11: Aftershocks

[sinkwriter]

 

Taking out the Hydra leaders like that felt a bit cheap to me because it kinda hinged on the Hydra people acting insanely dumb and naive.

 

I'm wondering if they were simply too arrogant and feeling invincible. That might cause them to not look closely enough at their surroundings, if they're already assuming no one's going to dare try to go up against them.

 

Skye's mother wasn't experimenting on people.

 

Agreed. To me it looked like she was gathering them up to help them learn to accept, love and control their powers. I assumed that's what the guy with no eyes was doing when he grabbed Raina, continuing on Skye's mom's legacy.

[Raja]

Skye's mother wasn't experimenting on people. The Inhumans believe their gifts make them special so they want their children to get them. Gordan, Skye and Raina had those gifts inside of them already, the mist just released them. Terrigenesis only works if they have Inhuman blood. They were however experiments of the Kree (from Guardians of the Galaxy) which is why their powers are not fun powers.

And with Skye being orphaned and Raina talking about her grandmother and not mom they missed the optimal years when inhuman parents put their children in the mist.

[Aeryn13]

 

Skye's mother wasn't experimenting on people. The Inhumans believe their gifts make them special so they want their children to get them. Gordan, Skye and Raina had those gifts inside of them already, the mist just released them.

 

I got that. But the way this flashback scene played, didn`t exactly give me good vibes about the people involved. I don`t care what the Inhumans wanted, the offered up their children to fates potentially worse than death. And Skye`s Mom was apparently the "caregiver" to the kids. That one guy commented on how her warmth helped prepare generations. Just like Raina used certain manipulative tactics, buttered people up and promised them their dreams, only to offer them up for experimentation, torture and death. So for me, Skye`s mother was still willingly and consciously involved in something pretty horrific.

[Kromm]

I don't think the show communicated very well WHY the Inhumans subject their people to the gas. Although to be fair, I don't recall the comics ever doing it all that well either. I think the gist of it is that the Inhumans aren't especially enlightened either. If I'm recalling correctly, it might not be that they don't have a choice, but that their entire social structure is based on taking the risk of subjecting yourself to the mists to gain powers, and it's the only way to move up the ladder of social importance (otherwise you are just a peon--barely more than a human, who they kind of despise/pity). So presumably if we have some young character with a horrible transformation, it's because maybe with parental pressure he chose to take the risk, not really believing it might lead to a power that had that much of a downside.

Also, the rulers of the Inhumans have been both villains and heroes in the Marvel Universe, but consistently have been ruthless. No idea how they plan to play this out in the MCU. I think there are likely to be both good guys and bad guys among the Inhumans, but I don't know if they'll hit the beats that as an entire race their values might be strange (although if you think about it, having a caste/social structure where those with abilities rule isn't all that strange or hard to understand).

[KirkB]

I haven't read any of the comics in a while, but I seem to recall it was usually only people who had a higher standing were given access to the mists in the first place. Most of the Inhumans you saw most often, like Black Bolt and Medusa, were members of the royal family. But even for them the mists are a crap shoot. Black Bolt can't open his mouth without threatening the entire city, and look at Lockjaw. We have no idea how much any of this will apply on the show. The Inhumans movie is a long way off (even longer than before from what I've heard) so we probably won't be seeing any of the royal family or major named characters, if they even exist in this continuity, most likely we'll just get people affected by obelisks and such.

[benteen]

 

And May`s "mind your rank" really rankled. You are basically a merry band of underground vigilants now, wake up and realize you are no longer a quasi-military organization with multiple strongholds, academies and a structure like before. Coulson and May IMO are trying to simply recreate SHIELD as it was or acting like it never stopped and this is just a temporary tough spot. I kinda want to bang their heads together for that.

 

This 1000X.  This version of Shield is an all-volunteer group of illegal vigilantes with no authority whatsoever and no ability to prosecute people who decide to desert/leave.  Or for that matter, no authority to kill or capture criminals.  Or conduct any kind of espionage.  I understand any "organization" like Shield needs structure in order to function and rebuild.  But Coulson and May need to realize that everyone currently aligned with them is there strictly by choice.  Given the status of Shield as fugitive, they would be foolish to leave (or work with Shield in the first place).  But Coulson and May have less authority than mall security cops.

Edited March 9, 2015 by benteen

[Sarahastro]

One of the really annoying things about the show is that they've never really addressed why these people are still working with S.H.I.E.L.D. Some make sense -- Coulson's in charge, May and Coulson are BFF, Skye is really attached to Coulson and has nowhere else to go -- but I don't really get why the others have stuck around. I'd kind of given up on the show ever addressing this, so I was really surprised and pleased that we got the big fight in this episode between Coulson and Mack, and we learned that Bobbi and Mack have their own agenda and are spying on Coulson. It'll be interesting to see how these things play out going forward, and what this means for the team and Coulson's leadership.

[Raja]

One of the really annoying things about the show is that they've never really addressed why these people are still working with S.H.I.E.L.D. Some make sense -- Coulson's in charge, May and Coulson are BFF, Skye is really attached to Coulson and has nowhere else to go -- but I don't really get why the others have stuck around. I'd kind of given up on the show ever addressing this, so I was really surprised and pleased that we got the big fight in this episode between Coulson and Mack, and we learned that Bobbi and Mack have their own agenda and are spying on Coulson. It'll be interesting to see how these things play out going forward, and what this means for the team and Coulson's leadership.

SHIELD as we know it is the only international organization working for us and not nationality based would seem to be the only reason folks stayed with SHIELD following the civil war with the Hydra among them rather then jumping ship like

Agent 13 did to the CIA at the end of The Winter Soldier

to organizations like national police forces or Stark Industries. However once the decision was made to stay I would expect the customs and courtesies would be more strickly enforced then when SHIELD was the premier agency.

 

I am still waiting for Agent Carter, and maybe Ant Man to explain how an open SSR became a secret SHIELD, that even had a service academy, before becoming an open SHIELD after the Battle of New York

[Ottis]

I missed the first 15 minutes of this ep, and when I saw Simmons' reaction to aliens I thought for sure she was pretending to hate them as part of a deep cover action initiated by Coulson with only her. That is how far out of chatacter her reaction was.

 

Also, she immediately saw that something was wrong with the blood results Fitz brought to the group (I'm guessing something related to the age of the sample). So she knows something is up already.

 

I have no idea who is fighting who anymore, nor who is winning. Hydra seemed to be on the run this ep from basically Coulson and May. And then there are the mutant/inhumans. But whatever, I'll stay with it.

[ChelseaNH]

This version of Shield is an all-volunteer group

 

Even volunteer organizations can have hierarchies, and the volunteers presumably knew what they were signing up for.  But if they decide they're no longer interested in sticking around, it looks like SHIELD doesn't have the resources to do all that much about it.

 

I suspect the show is struggling with the dissonance of a "ragtag bunch of underdogs" who nonetheless have a base and a jet and supporting staff.  I enjoy Whedon's work, but I've never considered him the best fit for a show about a quasi-military organization.

[Sakura12]

This isn't written by Joss Whedon, it's his less talented brother Jed Whedon. If Joss were writing this show it would be much better.

[ChelseaNH]

Jed has the writing room, but Joss was presumably involved in defining the show and influencing its ongoing direction.

[Sakura12]

Joss has not touched this show since directing the pilot. He's been too busy with Avengers 2.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Sakura12

[ChelseaNH]

Per this article:

 

“I’m reading every script, every story, and giving notes and re-writes”

[Sakura12]

That's an article from 2 years ago. I don't think he's done much with the show. He might look at the scripts but not put too much of his insight into it. He's leaving it up to his brother to run the show. 

[redfish]

Taking out the Hydra leaders like that felt a bit cheap to me because it kinda hinged on the Hydra people acting insanely dumb and naive. To fall for such a rather obvious ploy? To not be suspicious about someone who had been held captive by the enemy for months.  If you take out mid-level henchman like that? Fine. But not the leaders. Eh.

 

Right. Somehow, not Captain America or all previous seasons' of SHIELD's planning were able to effectively bring down Hydra. It ended up with a very convenient slapdash plot device to get rid of them so that they can focus on a new unknown enemy (whoever rescued Raina) just in time to wrap it up for the season finale and to set up Avengers2. Sigh.

 

I don't think the show communicated very well WHY the Inhumans subject their people to the gas. Although to be fair, I don't recall the comics ever doing it all that well either. I think the gist of it is that the Inhumans aren't especially enlightened either. If I'm recalling correctly, it might not be that they don't have a choice, but that their entire social structure is based on taking the risk of subjecting yourself to the mists to gain powers, and it's the only way to move up the ladder of social importance (otherwise you are just a peon--barely more than a human, who they kind of despise/pity). So presumably if we have some young character with a horrible transformation, it's because maybe with parental pressure he chose to take the risk, not really believing it might lead to a power that had that much of a downside.

 

From what the comics (and Wikipedia) tries to explain that the Kree genetically experimented a certain number of humans as guinea pigs to see how if they (Kree) could evolve into more powerful species using the Terrigen Mist. The altered ones exposed to the Terrigen mist became Inhumans and they went off on their own. Being mutated correlates to a specific power and into a caste  system so yeah, they're very hierarchal and it's inevitable due to their genes reacting to the mist and like a rite of passage. And there are the others who weren't altered yet that were left alone for generations on Earth "waiting" for the moment to be exposed to the Terrigen mist like Skye and probably Raina. So I guess this is a callback from season 1 with the big blue guy (Kree) that they've been around messing around with human beings.

 

[Kromm]

That's an article from 2 years ago. I don't think he's done much with the show. He might look at the scripts but not put too much of his insight into it. He's leaving it up to his brother to run the show. 

The details sure, but the broad strokes still have to follow Joss' blueprint because the events in the show have to sync up with the movies and now also the other TV properties (the Netflix stuff).  So the whole fall of SHIELD, for example, and who was left in charge, and the general resources they'd have all are going to have been run by Joss.

[Actionmage]

to effectively bring down Hydra.

 

I only saw the top of the Hydra chain of command killed. I don't think Hydra's "dead" any more than SHIELD is.  We just don't know who's going to step into the power void next.

 

Possibly Bakshi because  Talbot will make a stupid deal or get sloppy or some "convenient" thing.. For right now, yeah, we're probably going to look at the Inhuman stuff for a bit.  Dr. Cal doin' a happy dance is a fun note to see now and again.

[Raja]

I only saw the top of the Hydra chain of command killed. I don't think Hydra's "dead" any more than SHIELD is.  We just don't know who's going to step into the power void next.

 

Possibly Bakshi because  Talbot will make a stupid deal or get sloppy or some "convenient" thing.. For right now, yeah, we're probably going to look at the Inhuman stuff for a bit.  Dr. Cal doin' a happy dance is a fun note to see now and again.

Also at the local council of war the Hydra leadership made references to Baron Von Strucker suggesting that Hydra was much larger then those seniors

[Chicago Redshirt]

I only saw the top of the Hydra chain of command killed. I don't think Hydra's "dead" any more than SHIELD is.  We just don't know who's going to step into the power void next.

It's not even the entire top of the Hydra chain of command that got killed. 

The episode said that the five people meeting represented Hydra leadership in this region of the world. We were given nothing to specify how large that region of the world is, or where it is. Presumably it includes America and other areas. All we know is that Bloom took out three of the four potential rivals (Baronness by poison drink, Banker by disintegration device, Sheikh by poison gas).

 

We were not shown the fate of the fourth potential rival, Dr. List. Bloom was shot in the head by Hunter. Bakshi is presumably going to be delivered to Talbot for real.

 

Presumably, there are lieutenants to each of these people who are potentially going to step up. 

 

And of course, we don't know anything about the rest of Hydra's management structure, other than Baron Von Strucker exists and it can be inferred based on his comic history and his appearance in Cap 2 is the Supreme Hydra, or the overall head of Hydra.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[Actionmage]

Felt a bit bad for Raina who got truly a raw deal. But then it`s not like she didn`t have it coming

 

What would have been the best, imo, would have been for Raina to emerge, just not having any powers. The objective she was willing to kill and act morally above everyone else on the planet would have been denied to her.

 

Instead she can kill a bit more efficiently, has some kind of power( but she's lamenting not looking like the goddess she wanted to look like, so no telling what she might be able to do currently) and has folks willing to help her discover how to use those powers ( if she allows them to help her.) Not looking like Skye is what she's most upset about right now and demonizing Skye/Daisy for "stealing" what she felt owed.

[Kromm]

Also at the local council of war the Hydra leadership made references to Baron Von Strucker suggesting that Hydra was much larger then those seniors

Well it's also public, outed casting news that Thomas Kretschmann is playing that role in the upcoming Avengers movie (although everything beyond that, in other words what the Baron is doing) is of course spoilery.  And of course we already saw the Baron in the post-credits scene of the last Captain America film.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Kromm

[Kromm]

What would have been the best, imo, would have been for Raina to emerge, just not having any powers. The objective she was willing to kill and act morally above everyone else on the planet would have been denied to her.

 

Instead she can kill a bit more efficiently, has some kind of power( but she's lamenting not looking like the goddess she wanted to look like, so no telling what she might be able to do currently) and has folks willing to help her discover how to use those powers ( if she allows them to help her.) Not looking like Skye is what she's most upset about right now and demonizing Skye/Daisy for "stealing" what she felt owed.

Yeah, but her shallowness is what makes what they did the right choice (not that anyone in their right mind would want what she got).  It's a more powerful message because she's a hypocrite.  Just like Cal is one too, since his whole scheming against Coulson because "his revenge was denied" simply proves that Daisy/Skye's actual welfare was less his goal, despite his ranting, than his role is being the one to "save" her.

We're going to see these two pointless selfish vendettas play out this season, and the whole point will be that evil is kinda selfish (that's also why I think there's zero chance the people who scooped up Raina are good guys who will reform her--it's the wrong setup for her plot).

[Chicago Redshirt]

Yeah, but her shallowness is what makes what they did the right choice (not that anyone in their right mind would want what she got).  It's a more powerful message because she's a hypocrite.  Just like Cal is one too, since his whole scheming against Coulson because "his revenge was denied" simply proves that Daisy/Skye's actual welfare was less his goal, despite his ranting, than his role is being the one to "save" her.

We're going to see these two pointless selfish vendettas play out this season, and the whole point will be that evil is kinda selfish (that's also why I think there's zero chance the people who scooped up Raina are good guys who will reform her--it's the wrong setup for her plot).

In terms of wanting what Raina "has," I'm sure that some people would give up looking normal for a power suite that apparently includes enhanced speed and durability, plus the ability to kill barehanded with ease.

 

Cal's anger at his revenge being denied is of course at least somewhat crazy, just like just about everything he does. But it had nothing to do with Skye's immediate safety. It had to do with avenging his murdered wife. 

 

There are at least a couple ways for the Inhumans/Raina plot to go, and it'll take a while to see what happens.

1. The Inhumans are generally good but get betrayed by Raina. They eventually team up with SHIELD to take her (and possibly other rogue Inhumans down).

2. The Inhumans are generally good. Raina goes through a redemption/self-acceptance arc and becomes an ally to SHIELD, along with the Inhumans.

3. The Inhumans are generally bad. Raina becomes even worse and SHIELD needs to fight both the Inhumans and her.

4. The Inhumans are generally bad. Raina comes to realize that and warns SHIELD/becomes a victim of the Inhumans.

5. The Inhumans are mixed (at least some good, some bad, some grey). One of the above consequences happens.

[Kromm]

See, I sense that a lot of both of these vendetta plots are ultimately (unfortunately to my mind) about stupid fucking Ward.  I think we're going to have him finally gain his redemption by defusing one or both of these threats.

 

If you think about it Ward is somewhat responsible for both situations (even beyond his original bullshit with Garrett).  He was the one urging Skye to give her evil psycho Dad a chance, and he's coddled and allied himself with Raina in the past as well.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

It would take Ward curing cancer while dying for humanity's sins and saving a busload of orphans and puppies for him to ever be redeemed in my mind. 

[Kromm]

It would take Ward curing cancer while dying for humanity's sins and saving a busload of orphans and puppies for him to ever be redeemed in my mind. 

Would your #2 really be any more realistic?  Putting aside her work for Garrett, we saw Raina outright slaughter a whole bunch of your namesakes (redshirts) in this episode.

[callie lee 29]

Am I the only one who thought "GI Joe" when they were talking about "The Baroness"? That's a little too much crossover for me (and I like GI Joe)!

[Cranberry]

In terms of wanting what Raina "has," I'm sure that some people would give up looking normal for a power suite that apparently includes enhanced speed and durability, plus the ability to kill barehanded with ease.

 

I'm sure they would, although didn't she mention that she's in constant pain because she cuts herself when she moves? That would be a pretty big drawback.

[Kromm]

Am I the only one who thought "GI Joe" when they were talking about "The Baroness"? That's a little too much crossover for me (and I like GI Joe)!

I get the thought, but I think the Marvel Baroness (even though she seemed like a real throwaway character in the actual show) was a comics established one.  Or maybe just the NAME, since the actual comics character was at first Baron Zemo's mind in a female body, but then later (creepily enough--but the character claimed it was some kind of ruse that she was Zemo) the same character married to Baron Zemo's son (the second Baron Zemo).  

[Chicago Redshirt]

Would your #2 really be any more realistic?  Putting aside her work for Garrett, we saw Raina outright slaughter a whole bunch of your namesakes (redshirts) in this episode.

I could buy that as a result of the initial transformation, Raina had little to no control over what her actions were. None of the killing of the redshirts seemed (to me, anyways) directed to an objective or a strategy. She was just seemingly lashing out. So if her time with the Inhumans allows her to have better control over her emotions and thoughts, or even if the initial effects of the gas wore off, I could accept that she did what she did as part of diminished capacity/temporary insanity.

 

Whereas everything Ward has done was under no duress, no temporary insanity, and was 100 percent his fault. 

[KirkB]

See, I think a more fitting parallel would have been Skye stays beautiful and normal looking but gets a not inherently useful power she can't control, while Raina loses what she thinks is her best quality (beauty) but gets a really, dangerous power she has full control over. Like affecting minds/emotions or killing people with a poison touch. 

Edited March 11, 2015 by KirkB

[ChelseaNH]

Raina needed to get out of the city before it was flooded, and naturally she didn't want to get captured, caged and possibly exterminated.  There are guards in between her and freedom.  Unfortunately, she's not really equipped to subdue them.  If she attacks them, it's going to get messy.  If she doesn't attack them, how does she escape?

[Kromm]

Raina needed to get out of the city before it was flooded, and naturally she didn't want to get captured, caged and possibly exterminated.  There are guards in between her and freedom.  Unfortunately, she's not really equipped to subdue them.  If she attacks them, it's going to get messy.  If she doesn't attack them, how does she escape?

Raina has allowed herself to be captured by SHIELD before--it doesn't seem to be a dealbreaker for her.  Given that only a few scenes later we saw her attempt at "Death By Cop", I'd actually have thought that stealth attacks would be of little interest to her earlier, because even if she hadn't yet worked out that SkyeDaddy couldn't (or wouldn't) help her, I'd sooner have seen her trying to strike a deal with SHIELD to try and help her than her simply attacking them.  Meaning the interpretation that she simply couldn't help herself is probably accurate.  Clearly there's some kind of animalistic imprint on her that goes beyond simply being covered with weapons.

[ChelseaNH]

Raina has allowed herself to be captured by SHIELD before--it doesn't seem to be a dealbreaker for her.

 

Before she transformed, yes.  I'm thinking the situation is just a little bit different now.

[Kromm]

Before she transformed, yes.  I'm thinking the situation is just a little bit different now.

But that's the point.  We saw her willing to die just a scene or two later.

 

Admittedly the sequence of events makes it clear she DID try and get to SkyeDaddy first and guilt him into a magic cure (bad idea with someone who seemingly has no conscience).  But this has to show she wasn't thinking at ALL down in that pit, because the previous version of her would have had SHIELD in her back pocket as an alternate choice, because she'd have known that about that nutter, 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Raina needed to get out of the city before it was flooded, and naturally she didn't want to get captured, caged and possibly exterminated.  There are guards in between her and freedom.  Unfortunately, she's not really equipped to subdue them.  If she attacks them, it's going to get messy.  If she doesn't attack them, how does she escape?

There is no indication that Raina knew anything about a plan to flood the city. Assuming she did, she still had plenty of opportunity to leave the city between when  she found out and when we see her without killing anyone, let alone the three people we saw her kill.

 

It did not appear to me that the first person she killed was in the way of her leaving the city, and the second two she went out of her way to attack as well. One of whom was down when she straddled him and slashed his throat. She only tried to escape when Simmons shot her. She also attacked at least two other people, judging from Simmons's statement that there were two dead and three injured by her.

[kennyab]

It would take Ward curing cancer while dying for humanity's sins and saving a busload of orphans and puppies for him to ever be redeemed in my mind. 

 

Only if he does it shirtless (cue google search for Brett Dalton and puppies).

[ChelseaNH]

But this has to show she wasn't thinking at ALL down in that pit

 

Feeling trapped and wanting to escape doesn't require much thought.  Point is, she's not equipped to subdue guards without doing real harm.

 

There is no indication that Raina knew anything about a plan to flood the city. Assuming she did, she still had plenty of opportunity to leave the city between when she found out and when we see her without killing anyone

 

Even if she didn't know that they were going to flood the city, she wanted to escape without being caught.  There were guards around.  What opportunities did we see for her to escape?  When did we see that the exits were unguarded?  When did we see that her path to those exits was wide open? 

[Aeryn13]

 

This isn't written by Joss Whedon, it's his less talented brother Jed Whedon.

 

Heh. Somehow upon reading this my mind flashed to Big Bang`s Sheldon Cooper inventing a new chess piece, the dimwitted cousin of the King, called "Prince Joey".   

[Chicago Redshirt]

Feeling trapped and wanting to escape doesn't require much thought.  Point is, she's not equipped to subdue guards without doing real harm.

 

 

 

 

Even if she didn't know that they were going to flood the city, she wanted to escape without being caught.  There were guards around.  What opportunities did we see for her to escape?  When did we see that the exits were unguarded?  When did we see that her path to those exits was wide open? 

She could have escaped without killing or severely wounding.

 

Knock out guard 1 and take his hazmat suit and walk out of there.

 

Wait for the guards to pass or knock them out and then get on the elevator that she actually used to escape. 

 

Heck, even wait for them to leave just before blowing the city and then leave while more of the SHIELD redshirts are gone or going. 

[ChelseaNH]

How does Raina knock out an armed guard?  As far as we know, she doesn't have combat training, so what technique does she use?  There were two guards standing together, so how does she take out both of them?

 

This is my point:  She is far better equipped to slash than bash, so she slashed.

[Chicago Redshirt]

We're getting to the point of having to agree to disagree on this.

 

My point is that Raina killed two and seriously wounded three when as far as I can see, she didn't have to. 

 

If you can look at the scenes of Raina attacking the guards again, you can she that she knocked one of them out. She then straddled the guard. She then slashed her throat. 

 

If her only objective was escape and she was acting rationally, I think she could have done it certainly without killing 2 and wounding 3. 

[ChelseaNH]

There were two people together.  Raina came up behind one and slashed his throat.  She then pushed the second against the wall (okay), punched him in the face region despite the face mask of his hazmat suit (Hollywood BS) and spun him around to the floor (okay).  His head moved before she slashed him.  It's possible he was unconcious, if you're in Hollywood; he was more likely stunned, so not solidly down.

 

Nothing about this fight indicates that Raina could take on two people at once and knock them both out.  You are of course free to believe otherwise.

[John Potts]

At last, SHIELD are learning how to fight - if you're small, you need to exploit your enemies weakness to help take them down. Exploiting the fact that HYDRA is an always Chaotic Evil organisation means they're always ready to backstab their rivals to get to the top, so you throw a grenade and watch as they all shoot each other in retaliation.

 

But the downside: if they want to sell Skye as a hero (or heroine), they need to have her stand up and say "You can't let me go - I could be dangerous." Being ready to sacrifice yourself and loss of freedom are what makes you heroic (see Superman, Batman, Daredevil and skipping media, John Crichton, to name a few). Hell, you know Coulson is a soft touch, you'll be out in a couple of weeks. As for Fitz - that was soft hearted, but dumb. Fortunately, this seems to be a show where good intentions are sufficient protection against potential alien pandemics!

[sinkwriter]

 

Being ready to sacrifice yourself and loss of freedom are what makes you heroic (see Superman, Batman, Daredevil and skipping media, John Crichton, to name a few).

 

A+ for mentioning John Crichton.   :D

[Jeezaloo]

didn't she mention that she's in constant pain because she cuts herself when she moves?

She just hasn't learned how to move yet.