The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Brn2bwild]

IMO even unfinished, Martin's series is much better than Auel's.  It's interesting that in her case, with the recently announced television pilot of her series, we might see a television show that substantially improves upon the source material, if done right.

[Haleth]

Another series that was green lighted for tv probably due to the success of GoT is the Outlander series.  Swash buckling romance with a timey wimey sci fi element.  And it's the same story with the writing... the first 2 or 3 books are fun and captivating.  After that?  Meh, Gabaldon seemed to run out of ideas.  There was nothing new to keep the saga moving forward.   

[Winnief]

I also think we can credit GoT for "The Musketeers" on BBC America which I enjoy as a semi-guilty pleasure.  

 

 

Also, his slow pace doesn't IMO really explain the decline in writing for the last two books. How many times do we have to read about Tyrion shaking off the last few drops? Dany and Asha have nearly identical sex scenes at one point. Numerous unnecessary things pad the books out. Imagine if he'd subtracted half of the repeat phrases? Words are wind. We know, we know. He knows we know. Yet still he persists with the repetition. What does he think is the point of having an editor, I wonder?

To give him repeated encouragement?!?  From all accounts he never listens to his editor's attempts to get him to tighten up the story and cut out the chaff.  

 

I find it significant that the show even while trying to contract its list of characters included three Sand Snakes.  In part because, I'm sure they thought they'd add some color to the series but to me that also suggests they play a significant role in TWOW; one of them I think is going kill Tommen or some other central figure in KL for sure.

[Skeeter22]

The funny thing about GRRM's suggestions for delaying the series is the idea that he thinks he'd finish in time if only they'd take a season off. Imagine if they indulged him and took a hiatus next year or did a prequel season and pushed season 5 (ADWD & AFFC) to 2016. Say GRRM actually manages to publish TWOW in 2016 (2015 seems really unlikely). That means he'd have to publish ADOS by early 2018 to finish before the last season airs (2017 if he wants to finish before they write the final season). Does anyone think he can finish the last book in 2 years or less? Unless they delay the show indefinitely, there is no way for GRRM to finish before the show does. 

 

I am looking forward to how they deal with spoilers after this season. It's already too complicated for a lot of people to keep up with as it is. Once the show starts spoiling the books, it'll be crazy. It'll be a nice comeuppance for book readers who can't seem to stop themselves from spoiling the show.

[Avaleigh]

It wouldn't have made much of a difference but I have wondered for awhile now if GRRM was ever under the impression that the show would increase from 10 episodes to 12 or so after the success of the first season. While it would probably only have given him a year of extra time, I do think it's unfortunate that the showrunners couldn't see the sense in having 12 episode seasons. Why the insistance on starting each season in April? Would the wheels really come off of the wagon if people had to wait until June for a longer season? HBO is so not above milking a show. Just to be clear, I don't want them to do it now of course but do I think that seasons 1 and 2 especially should easily have been 12 episodes? Hell fucking yes! There was plenty of exciting material and now if anything it seems like they might end up stretching out on material they don't even have, just some rough idea of. Season 1 I understand because at the time they were taking a gamble but why not bump it up after such a successful debut? It happens all the time, shows that start off with a smaller number of episodes only to increase the order number for subsequent season. It works the other way around too but often that can be for a show that is on the decline. It's odd that a show as successful as GoT wouldn't have wanted some extra time to keep its viewers captive.

 

Oh well, too late now but if I'd been D&D I would have been keen on trying this for at least one season. Seasons 3 and 4 at 10 episodes a piece makes sense to me though. That was plenty. 

 

I am looking forward to how they deal with spoilers after this season. It's already too complicated for a lot of people to keep up with as it is. Once the show starts spoiling the books, it'll be crazy. It'll be a nice comeuppance for book readers who can't seem to stop themselves from spoiling the show.

 

 

Isn't that the truth. Although to be fair I get the sense that most of the people who go out of their way to spoil people often haven't even read the books. Not only that but people who are spoiler sensitive tend to be respectful. I've seen some of the other type too though, so I agree that it'll be nice for the tables to be turned on those types. 

 

I am an addict when it comes to spoilers so even though all of the big moments that I'm looking forward to have basically already happened on the show, I think I might well be more excited for next season than I am for any other. I'm going to lose my mind during practically any Sansa/Alayne scene next year because almost all of it should be new. Bran too. It's going to feel like such a treat. I can't imagine if I'd been waiting since 2006 to see what Sansa and Littlefinger are up to.

[feverfew]

I can't imagine if I'd been waiting since 2006 to see what Sansa and Littlefinger are up to.

Fanfics, my friend. Unfortunately most of the Sansa-centric fics are SanSan porn, but..them's the breaks. Kidding aside, I am as exited as you are - this season has already been interesting in terms of her future development, since I'm guessing the last episode with her means to convey that she'll be a player, not a piece going forward. Nice to be vindicated - it's been 8 long years ;)

[benteen]

It wouldn't have made much of a difference but I have wondered for awhile now if GRRM was ever under the impression that the show would increase from 10 episodes to 12 or so after the success of the first season. While it would probably only have given him a year of extra time, I do think it's unfortunate that the showrunners couldn't see the sense in having 12 episode seasons. Why the insistance on starting each season in April? Would the wheels really come off of the wagon if people had to wait until June for a longer season? HBO is so not above milking a show. Just to be clear, I don't want them to do it now of course but do I think that seasons 1 and 2 especially should easily have been 12 episodes? Hell fucking yes! There was plenty of exciting material and now if anything it seems like they might end up stretching out on material they don't even have, just some rough idea of. Season 1 I understand because at the time they were taking a gamble but why not bump it up after such a successful debut? It happens all the time, shows that start off with a smaller number of episodes only to increase the order number for subsequent season. It works the other way around too but often that can be for a show that is on the decline. It's odd that a show as successful as GoT wouldn't have wanted some extra time to keep its viewers captive.

 

Oh well, too late now but if I'd been D&D I would have been keen on trying this for at least one season. Seasons 3 and 4 at 10 episodes a piece makes sense to me though. That was plenty. 

 

 

Isn't that the truth. Although to be fair I get the sense that most of the people who go out of their way to spoil people often haven't even read the books. Not only that but people who are spoiler sensitive tend to be respectful. I've seen some of the other type too though, so I agree that it'll be nice for the tables to be turned on those types. 

 

I am an addict when it comes to spoilers so even though all of the big moments that I'm looking forward to have basically already happened on the show, I think I might well be more excited for next season than I am for any other. I'm going to lose my mind during practically any Sansa/Alayne scene next year because almost all of it should be new. Bran too. It's going to feel like such a treat. I can't imagine if I'd been waiting since 2006 to see what Sansa and Littlefinger are up to.

 

I have been a little surprised that they haven't considered at least having longer episodes.  I guess with how much the show costs, they're leery about adding additional episodes.  But a couple minutes more each episode certainly couldn't hurt.

[Winnief]

 

I have been a little surprised that they haven't considered at least having longer episodes.  I guess with how much the show costs, they're leery about adding additional episodes.  But a couple minutes more each episode certainly couldn't hurt.

 

Well they went to 66 minutes for "The Children," and I wouldn't be surprised if we get more longer episodes in the future as well; possibly even more episodes per season for seasons 6 &7

[Avaleigh]

With a show like this, if I'd been in control, I would have wanted to go for either a two hour intro or finale* for each season. That might well have made all of the difference to me.

66 minutes barely feels like extra IMHO. I know, I know, I should be grateful for what we get, and I am, but I'd also be lying if I didn't admit that such thoughts have occurred to me.

*Not quite two full hours obviously and that could basically be considered eleven episodes.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

I like the idea of a two hour premiere or finale myself.  Certainly the eventual series finale should be two hours.

[Winnief]

 

I like the idea of a two hour premiere or finale myself.  Certainly the eventual series finale should be two hours.

 

There's always next season!  

 

If as rumored Arianne doesn't make it to the show, then to me that's probably because her story becomes so entwined with Aegon's in the books and that yes indeed Arianne weds Aegon and ruins both of them in the process.  If the show decides not to use Aegon then they don't really need Ari because all else she does is seduce a Kingsguard, make an ill advised attempt to crown Myrcella, (something one of the Sand Snakes could do just as easily,) and sulk a lot at being ignored.  So Arianne's absence from the official cast list would tell us she didn't last long but no doubt went down in the Second Dance.  

 

Conversely, I think the reason the Sand Snakes *did* make it is because they're going to do something in TWOW that massively shakes things up for the Lannisters and/or Tyrell's; whether that involves the death of Tommen, Myrcella, or both, or something else altogether they have a role to play.  Hell one of them OR Trystane (or assuming a Sand Snake/Trystane wedding which isn't unthinkable) is gonna end up ruling Dorne someday whereas again if Arianne doesn't make the cut its because she doesn't survive to ever rule Dorne.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Winnief

[patchwork]

I wont be surprised if we get a mini series about Robert's Rebellion once the series ends. All new actors to keep costs down and they already have half the sets.

 

I have limited sympathy for GRRM, if he was that bothered about the tv show spoiling the ending of his books then he shouldn't have sold the rights to HBO in the first place. ITA he knows how he wants to end it but I think he's set up a Meereenese Knot of his own about how to get there. The books have so many prophesies and it's not easy to course change when you've had credible characters state 'right yep, this is how you're gonna get there'. Even Melisandre who's probably backed the wrong guy isn't wrong about the prophesy itself. 

Edited July 13, 2014 by patchwork

[Avaleigh]

If they're cutting Arianne then IMO that's even more of a reason to keep Quentyn and Trystane as separate characters. That leaves House Martell without any heirs and as of TWoW they still have two. I agree that it doesn't look good for Aegon or Arianne based on the points made by Winnief and others, but I'm wondering who would be responsible for taking them out especially if it's happens early on in TWoW ? Who has the military strength to deal with them at this point?

Also, would it be safe to assume that Aegon is indeed FAegon if he's dropped from the show?

If they spend time on a Sand Snake seducing Arys Oakheart then to me it makes more sense to keep Arianne and to me this is largely because of the Myrcella portion of the story. It just seems like Myrcella would be more likely to have formed a friendship and trust with someone who is more or less on her own level sort of like the Sansa/Margaery dynamic. Plus, to me since Arianne is a princess and first in line, they'd use all of this to explain to Myrcella why she in fact should come before Tommen. To me the plot to crown Myrcella makes more sense withArianne in tthe picture serving as an example of a woman who has brothers but still comes first. Not even Dany can claim that. (Which might be another reason for why Arianne may have been cut.)

There's also the romance with Trystane to consider since that seems like it's going to be a thing. Doesn't it seem more likely that Myrcella would place more trust in the sister of her betrothed rather than one of his notoriously shady and illegitimate cousins? I wonder too if Trystane will know anything about the plot and what effect the situation will have on their relationship. I've also been curious to know if he'll reject her now that she's been disfigured. I'm actually kind of hoping they skip that part of it but OTOH I know I'd find it hilarious to read people's take on the show including the infamous Dorkstar especially if they keep the dialogue. I can actually almost see GRRM urging D&D to keep him in since he seemed to not really get the weaknesses of the character.

[Winnief]

 

 

agree that it doesn't look good for Aegon or Arianne based on the points made by Winnief and others, but I'm wondering who would be responsible for taking them out especially if it's happens early on in TWoW ? Who has the military strength to deal with them at this point?

Also, would it be safe to assume that Aegon is indeed FAegon if he's dropped from the show?

I didn't say Aegon/Arianne collapse early in TWOW but just that their reign is short lived.  Remember Martin foretold that Dany would face the Mummer's Dragon and be the "destroyer" of lies, so my guess is Aegon/Arianne actually take KL for a time, (and we get another failed regime in King's Landing-oh joy) or some other places and enjoy a lot of support but it's all a Pyrrhic victory because when Dany finally, finally does roll into town she doesn't feel like sharing but rather crushes them in literally no time at all.  (Bigger army + Actual Dragons=fAegon Barbecue.)  Then Dany's off to deal with the One Eyed Kraken.

 

Alternatively, fAegon and Arianne could be killed by the One Eyed Kraken if he ever made it to KL.  It would certainly be logical; but it doesn't seem to fit the prophecy.  And yeah, Martin has totally boxed himself in with all the damn prophecies detailing how things have to happen, when by the aims of the evolving story they don't necessarily fit.  Hence, Dany's further dawdling in Essos because of the "to go forward you must go back" thing even when it's clearly WAY past time to have her meet Tyrion and start sailing West.  Seven only knows how he hopes to keep things at a stalemate between fAegon and the IB in Westeros in the meantime or keep Cersei alive long enough to be killed by the Valonqar.  

[Hecate7]

 

choose someone for herself based on who she thinks can do her and the Stark cause the most good.

That would be a tossup between Stannis & Tyrion.

 

Tyrion has already killed Tywin and plans to take down most of the rest of the Lannister clan. He's still legally her husband, which means that what's his is hers if he ends up with Casterly Rock or gets promoted by Danaerys, who, let's face it, will want to put HER people in as many of the top positions in the 7 Kingdoms as possible.

 

Stannis otoh might help the Starks, out of gratitude to Ned, when he's not burning down godwoods and killing diehard adherents of the Old Religion.....but he has yet to actually help the Starks up front.

[Winnief]

 

Stannis otoh might help the Starks, out of gratitude to Ned, when he's not burning down godwoods and killing diehard adherents of the Old Religion.....but he has yet to actually help the Starks up front.

 

Plus he's already married.  I agree Stannis/Sansa seems unlikely, and I think even if Stannis were a widower Stannis/Asha would be more probable.  

 

Remember from Sansa's viewpoint Tyrion at present is a penniless fugitive and Seven only know where he is.  Martin doesn't plan on having him even meet Dany anytime soon and the marriage could be annulled long before that.  So while I'm not saying Sansa/Tyrion isn't possible there are other possibilities as well.

[Haleth]

so my guess is Aegon/Arianne actually take KL for a time, (and we get another failed regime in King's Landing-oh joy) or some other places and enjoy a lot of support but it's all a Pyrrhic victory because when Dany finally, finally does roll into town she doesn't feel like sharing but rather crushes them in literally no time at all.

 

In keeping with the historical sources, during the War of the Roses the crown pingponged between the houses several times.  This gave Henry Tudor time to grow up and gain the support he needed to come in and pick up the pieces, just like Dany is doing.  Of course the wait is tedious for us readers.

[Avaleigh]

I didn't say Aegon/Arianne collapse early in TWOW but just that their reign is short lived.  Remember Martin foretold that Dany would face the Mummer's Dragon and be the "destroyer" of lies, so my guess is Aegon/Arianne actually take KL for a time, (and we get another failed regime in King's Landing-oh joy) or some other places and enjoy a lot of support but it's all a Pyrrhic victory because when Dany finally, finally does roll into town she doesn't feel like sharing but rather crushes them in literally no time at all.  (Bigger army + Actual Dragons=fAegon Barbecue.)  Then Dany's off to deal with the One Eyed Kraken.

 

Alternatively, fAegon and Arianne could be killed by the One Eyed Kraken if he ever made it to KL.  It would certainly be logical; but it doesn't seem to fit the prophecy.  And yeah, Martin has totally boxed himself in with all the damn prophecies detailing how things have to happen, when by the aims of the evolving story they don't necessarily fit.  Hence, Dany's further dawdling in Essos because of the "to go forward you must go back" thing even when it's clearly WAY past time to have her meet Tyrion and start sailing West.  Seven only knows how he hopes to keep things at a stalemate between fAegon and the IB in Westeros in the meantime or keep Cersei alive long enough to be killed by the Valonqar.

If Aegon/Arianne does end up happening I agree that it will be a short reign indeed. If multiple people are still meant to sit on the Iron Throne before all is said and done, to me that suggests that FAegon and Arianne will crash and burn during TWoW and I also agree that Euron is the best bet as to who would likely try to claim the throne next.

I feel like Euron is in an interesting position in that he basically seems like he might well be the most threatening person in Westeros at the moment. Right now he's the biggest threat to the Reach (which could interfere with food supply), we know he's going to be a thorn in Dany's side if Quaithe is to be believed, he has no love for the North, he's a threat to KL and seems like he might well be headed there soon, etc. Then of course there's the fact that he's a murderous, misanthropic psychopath, lol. The idea of him being let loose anywhere within the realm gives me bad Ramsay-style vibes. For all we know it could be his crazy ass who ends up burning the city to the ground. Or maybe it happens because of him and he ends up getting roasted like the men of Harrenhaal. Either way I think there's an excellent chance that he has a role to play in turning the throne room into the state show!Dany sees during her HotU vision.

For some reason this makes me wonder if anyone will end up taking those ships from Aurane Waters now that he's all set up as a pirate. I can't see Victarion living through the battle of Meereen but I can sort of see him thinking that Aurane's fleet would be easy pickings. Dany claiming them for herself would definitely be sweet. I mean, we're not just going to not see those ships again, right?

[sev]

For some reason this makes me wonder if anyone will end up taking those ships from Aurane Waters now that he's all set up as a pirate. I can't see Victarion living through the battle of Meereen but I can sort of see him thinking that Aurane's fleet would be easy pickings. Dany claiming them for herself would definitely be sweet. I mean, we're not just going to not see those ships again, right?

 

I hope so: I, too, look forward to hear Tywin be addressed as a she! (Cersei named one one of the ships Lord Tywin)

Edited July 19, 2014 by sev

[Holmbo]

IMO even unfinished, Martin's series is much better than Auel's.  It's interesting that in her case, with the recently announced television pilot of her series, we might see a television show that substantially improves upon the source material, if done right.

Absolutely agree. Although it's like comparing apples to broadswords.

I didn't know there was talk of a television series. That sounds very interesting, I'll have to check out the news about that.

[benteen]

GRRM won't be writing a script next season as he stated "I have this book to finish."  He did give some information about the Winds of Winter prologue and a character who would appear in it (though not be the POV).

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/07/26/george-r-r-martin-wont-writing-episode-season-5-talks-winds-winter-prologue/

[jjjmoss]

I sorta feel that it might be more that he's pouting that the show's moving ahead of him this season and erasing some of his beloved boring characters/storylines. Given his penchant for complaining about the pace of the show, and his penchant for being incredibly slow at writing the books this century.

Edited July 27, 2014 by jjjmoss

[Avaleigh]

I hope so: I, too, look forward to hear Tywin be addressed as a she! (Cersei named one one of the ships Lord Tywin)

 

 

It's random stuff like this that makes me love Cersei. And yes, I too rather look forward to this.

 

I've said it a few times, but if Tywin could see even half of what's happened since his death, I'm sure he'd have to be positively spinning and not only because of Cersei's nonstop idiocy.  

[Hanahope]

I bet GRRM is feeling intense pressure to get the next book out so he can get started on the final book in time for the last season.  If he doesn't want the show producers to pretty much make up how the story ends he'd better get his act together.

[mac123x]

I bet GRRM is feeling intense pressure to get the next book out so he can get started on the final book in time for the last season.  If he doesn't want the show producers to pretty much make up how the story ends he'd better get his act together.

 

I remember hearing a story about J.K. Rowling having written the final part of the last Harry Potter book really early (like when she wrote the first book I think).  I wonder if GRRM has the finale already planned out and maybe even partially written, and the reason he's taken so long on the intermediate books is he couldn't figure out how to get to that end point.  That's me being hopeful.

 

Pessimistic Me says either a) he has no idea how to end the series so is meandering and procrastinating or b) he does know how to get to the end but just takes a really long time to write -- pages and pages of food and heraldry porn take a lot of time!  Either way I'm pretty certain the series will wrap long before book 7 gets published.

[Hanahope]

I wonder if GRRM has the finale already planned out and maybe even partially written, and the reason he's taken so long on the intermediate books is he couldn't figure out how to get to that end point.  That's me being hopeful.

 

I had read somewhere that GRRM did tell the producers at least some of the planned finale of the story, at least who, if anyone, is on the Iron Throne and the resolution of some characters/story lines.  But yes, I think his main problem is getting to where he wants the end to be.  Already the show had taken liberties with the story, so unless the show is going to pretty much be completely different from the books, GRRM better get at least outlining done.

 

I wonder if HBO promised him some sort of production bonus/carrot if he gets enough of the story done in time to film, or alternatively threatened a whip if he doesn't (perhaps there's some contract provision about it).  According to his blog, GRRM is also not going to schedule any more appearances, other than those already scheduled, until he gets the next book out, so it looks like he's going to buckle down and git 'er done.

[SilverShadow]

I think he desperately wants to get Book 6 out before Season 6 starts, at the very least. I could see it being finished this Fall/Winter, with a Spring/Summer 2015 release either just before GOT season 5, or just after. Which would give Martin around two years to finish 7.

[benteen]

I know the recent Mercy chapter that GRRM released was said to have been written 13 years ago, I believe around the time of that "five-year jump".

[Avaleigh]

I might totally be pulling this out of my ass but I thought I read that a 2015 release date was pretty much off of the table?  I feel like I've been optimistic by thinking early 2016.

 

The fact that GRRM isn't scheduling any more appearances and won't be writing an episode for this season suggests to me that those of us who feel that he could have taken this approach some time ago had a fair point in thinking that spending more time writing might *gasp* achieve some actual results. GRRM says he knows what works best for him and that he needs big blocks of time to get writing done, so I'm glad he finally seems to be taking some steps to make sure that he has some where he won't be so distracted by x, y, and, z.

 

I remember hearing a story about J.K. Rowling having written the final part of the last Harry Potter book really early (like when she wrote the first book I think).

 

 

In retrospect I think she wishes that she'd done things differently. I was sort of glad to see her acknowledge that if she'd had it to do over again it likely wouldn't have had the same ending at least as far as a couple of the romantic pairings. 

 

Thinking about the ending and whatever GRRM has told D&D so far--

I wonder if they're happy about what they know so far and I wonder if they'd ever change anything really big like who ends up sitting on the Iron Throne at the end. What if Stannis did end up winning? I don't think he will but I do wonder if D&D would just say 'yeah, okay, so not happening in our version.' (I don't actually think that D&D hate the character of Stannis but since so many share that opinion this was an immediate example that came to mind.) Similarly, I wonder if they'd ever spare or kill a major character in direct opposition to the books because of feeling that it would be better for the story overall. I suppose that they did that with Talisa/Jeyne Westerling, but to me she barely counts as a major character. If someone like Arya or Jaime were to die in a way that fans felt was premature, I wonder if the show would decide to alter something like that just to cater to the more vocal fans. Hopefully not but after this season of True Blood I can't help but wonder about stuff like this and I didn't even read those books, I've just read comments from people who have and it's interesting to see how fan reaction has seemingly had an influence on that show.

[Minneapple]

I remember hearing a story about J.K. Rowling having written the final part of the last Harry Potter book really early (like when she wrote the first book I think).

She wrote the Nineteen Years Later chapter while she was writing the first book. Since JKR's writing improved with the later books, that chapter is quite jarring partly because it most resembles Sorcerer's Stone. But whatever else JKR did, at least she had an ending planned, she stuck to it, and she finished her work.

GRRM probably knows how he wants his big characters to end up, he's just enjoying a little too much waylaying them before they get there. You don't write characters like Dany, Jon, Cersei without a firm ending for them in mind.

I'm guessing that GRRM's publishers are "gently" urging him to have WoW finished in time to release at roughly the same time that season five starts. That would make for a huge bookstore event, the book would be a loss leader, etc. Plus they could head off a few spoilers at least. By the time A Dream of Spring comes out, the buzz will have plummeted. They'll be casting for Lyanna and Rhaegar and planning a big flashback episode (how much would I love to see the Harrenhal tourney and the Knight of the Laughing Tree onscreen? Though they'd probably muck it up and then I'd be pissed off) and suddenly ADoS will seem really anticlimactic. The show will have basically spoiled the books (ohmygod we'll be reverse-unsullied) and the big hype that comes from television will have faded.

[Hecate7]

He has said he's not going to pull a "Lost" and let fan reactions change the story he's writing. I really hope he sticks to that. I would a million times rather have a satisfying story that is the artist's real expression, than an "unpredictable" one that makes no sense because the artist threw out everything the audience guessed in advance or complained about.

[Holmbo]

I wonder if they're happy about what they know so far and I wonder if they'd ever change anything really big like who ends up sitting on the Iron Throne at the end. What if Stannis did end up winning? I don't think he will but I do wonder if D&D would just say 'yeah, okay, so not happening in our version.' (I don't actually think that D&D hate the character of Stannis but since so many share that opinion this was an immediate example that came to mind.) Similarly, I wonder if they'd ever spare or kill a major character in direct opposition to the books because of feeling that it would be better for the story overall. I suppose that they did that with Talisa/Jeyne Westerling, but to me she barely counts as a major character. If someone like Arya or Jaime were to die in a way that fans felt was premature, I wonder if the show would decide to alter something like that just to cater to the more vocal fans. Hopefully not but after this season of True Blood I can't help but wonder about stuff like this and I didn't even read those books, I've just read comments from people who have and it's interesting to see how fan reaction has seemingly had an influence on that show.

I could see them changing something like a major characters death but I don't think it would be because they didn't like it. Rather I think it might be done because of butterfly effects from changes they done before. If they had to cut certain character or events and those might have lead to a specific demise for one of the main characters.

Like for some reason I feel like Tyrion will die of grayscale in the books. But if they show where to cut out Aegon they might not have the opportunity for him to meet the stonemen and get infected. So they might have him die similarly but by a different disease or something.

[Avaleigh]

He has said he's not going to pull a "Lost" and let fan reactions change the story he's writing. I really hope he sticks to that. I would a million times rather have a satisfying story that is the artist's real expression, than an "unpredictable" one that makes no sense because the artist threw out everything the audience guessed in advance or complained about.

I didn't watch Lost and didn't realize fan reaction played into what happened there. That's pretty surprising to know considering how disappointed most everyone seemed. It's kind of a toss up as to which finale is most regularly used as an example of what not to do. Dexter, Lost, and The Sopranos are regularly cited when it comes to incredibly terrible series finales and I can't see GoT ever being in a position of both wussing out when it comes to telling the audience definitively what happened and having a lacklustre series of events leading up to the conclusion.

Re: Tyrion and greyscale--shouldn't he show signs by now since JonCon has?

Not to open up this can of worms again, but I've wondered before if Tyrion not getting greyscale is another point in favor of the Aerys/Joanna theories. I feel like I'm continually adding logs to the fire when it comes to this theory via the books and show.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Avaleigh

[ElizaD]

Not to open up this can of worms again, but I've wondered before if Tyrion not getting greyscale is another point in favor of the Aerys/Joanna theories.

 

Do you mean the supposed Targaryen immunity to disease? IIRC that's mentioned by Dany who's ignorant of her family's history; part of the reason Aegon the Unlikely came to the throne is that two princes who were ahead of his father in the succession died of the same plague that killed thousands of peasants. Tyrion is also told that he can never be sure he's clean, so it seems greyscale sometimes takes a long time to show up. I think Tyrion was just lucky and doesn't have the disease.

 

I trust the showrunners to mostly follow GRRM's plan for the characters' final fates, but I can see them making some exceptions for their favorites. If Book Jaime dies, for example, in a way that they consider unsatisfying, they still kill him off but in a more badass/sympathetic way. If Tyrion dies on the show, he's definitely dying as a  martyred hero.

[sev]

I don't think GRRM would have Tyrion jump into Greyscale infested water without a purpose. Either he'll contact the disease or GRRM will reveal the cause of the immunity - might it be blood or what Tyrion had for breakfast. 

Edited August 3, 2014 by sev

[Hecate7]

I don't think he has it, but I think having him inhale "all the blackness of the world" or however that quote went, means he has something worse. I think the greyscale thing is meant to expose that Tyrion is immune.

[Holmbo]

Re: Tyrion and greyscale--shouldn't he show signs by now since JonCon has?

 

JonCon said it could lay dormant. He also said you the disease could start from within you. This in combination with some parts of the dream Tyrion had after battle of blackwater makes me think he'll get grayscale from the inside and turn mute and then die. I read it on westeros.org (of course). It's super depressing so I'd be happy to see Tyrion not encountering stonemen in the show even though it might not necessary reveal his fate in the books. It would be cool to see how they'd portray the stonemen though.

[screamin]

I'm not sure this is the place to put this, but for those who followed the GoT fanfic thread at TWoP, the fanfic The North Remembers has come to its conclusion:

 

http://archiveofourown.org/works/336407

 

I've liked this work since its start, and I think it's likely to be as good an ending as we're going to be getting for awhile...

[Lady S.]

Do you mean the supposed Targaryen immunity to disease? IIRC that's mentioned by Dany who's ignorant of her family's history; part of the reason Aegon the Unlikely came to the throne is that two princes who were ahead of his father in the succession died of the same plague that killed thousands of peasants. Tyrion is also told that he can never be sure he's clean, so it seems greyscale sometimes takes a long time to show up. I think Tyrion was just lucky and doesn't have the disease.

Moreover, she believed this because "Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted common men" and Viserys is imo never a good source for belief-basing, as you said he obviously wasn't aware of the Great Spring Sickness. Shireen is also 1/16 or so Targ, yet that didn't stop her from nearly dying of greyscale and being scarred by it. I don't believe in any theories that Targ blood must be 100% pure, we know it's not the case for dragon affinity through Brown Ben Plumm with his "drop or two of dragonblood", I'd think the case would be the same for any other properties of dragonblood. 

[Avaleigh]

I don't think the Targaryen blood keeps them from ever being ill I just think catching an illness seems to be less likely. Tyrion has seemingly avoided both greyscale and the pale mare even though he's been very much exposed. Dany too has avoided the pale mare even though she's been hands on when it comes to trying to show her "children" that she cares about what they're going through. I agree that Viserys didn't necessarily know what he was talking about but 16+ years without ever being ill is still pretty impressive IMO. The miscarriage and food poisoning that she likely got from those suspicious sounding berries don't count as an catching a sickness IMO.

Shireen might have survived due to a combination of her age and her blood. I definitely get a Targaryen vibe from Shireen and have wondered if she's supposed to be similar to that one Targaryen daughter who would have prophetic dreams. I used to think that she was dreaming about Dany's dragons coming to eat her but now because of the show I wonder if it doesn't have more to do with Melisandre's dragon hatching plans.

[SilverShadow]

The Baratheons are part Targaryen. I believe through Robert and co.'s grandmother, but I don't have my book to check. But it's part of the reason it was decided Robert became King and not Ned, he had the better claim. 

[benteen]

The Baratheons are part Targaryen. I believe through Robert and co.'s grandmother, but I don't have my book to check. But it's part of the reason it was decided Robert became King and not Ned, he had the better claim. 

 

That's correct.  Robert, Stannis, and Renly's grandmother was a Targ and that's why Robert had the best blood claim on the Throne.  Renly doesn't put much stock in it but that's supposed to be his argument...that it shouldn't be blood that entitles you to be a ruler.

[SilverShadow]

Thanks for validation! But perhaps the lingering Targ genes are why Shireen was only disfigured and didn't die.

[EngradyPind]

I don't think the Targaryen blood keeps them from ever being ill I just think catching an illness seems to be less likely. Tyrion has seemingly avoided both greyscale and the pale mare even though he's been very much exposed. Dany too has avoided the pale mare even though she's been hands on when it comes to trying to show her "children" that she cares about what they're going through. I agree that Viserys didn't necessarily know what he was talking about but 16+ years without ever being ill is still pretty impressive IMO. The miscarriage and food poisoning that she likely got from those suspicious sounding berries don't count as an catching a sickness IMO.

Shireen might have survived due to a combination of her age and her blood. I definitely get a Targaryen vibe from Shireen and have wondered if she's supposed to be similar to that one Targaryen daughter who would have prophetic dreams. I used to think that she was dreaming about Dany's dragons coming to eat her but now because of the show I wonder if it doesn't have more to do with Melisandre's dragon hatching plans.

In book 5, one of the wilding women remarks on see Shireen, that when children survive greyscale the disease comes back later in their life? 

And of course that comment did not need a question mark at the end.

[Avaleigh]

Val's fear of Shireen reminded me of Melisandre's reaction to Patchface. Shireen and Patchface are both seemingly harmless characters who have provoked intense reactions but haven't really done anything to warrant them. Melisandre is probably very old and I'm sure she's seen a lot of shit yet it's a half witted fool who seems to disturb her the most. Even though he isn't on the show I still feel like something fairly big will end up happening there. I'd like it too if Shireen were to get another of his creepy songs.

I wonder if Val is going to be cut and what this means to her role in TWoW. I know a lot of people have her pegged for Jon but I'm not so sure especially if they aren't going to include her on the show. Shouldn't we have heard about her being cast at this point? No word yet on Myranda Royce, Lady Dustin, Kevan--these are all minor characters I was really hoping to see.

[benteen]

Kevan I'm hoping to see again.  He's a character I really started to like with AFFC and ADWD.  I'd like to see Lady Dustin too but D and D don't do female rulers who aren't named Dany.

 

An interesting thing about Patchface is that he seems to be the embodiment of the Drowned God.  Someone like Damphair would love to have what Patchface seemingly gained from almost drowning.

Edited August 10, 2014 by benteen

[Winnief]

I think if Jon/Val were going to happen we'd have met her by now.  Her not being included is a clear sign she's a red herring.  Also Mance's baby can't be that important if it hasn't made it to the show, and without a baby switch, Sam and Gilly might never be sent off to Oldtown.  (Remember they're juggling so many new sets as is.)  I doubt they'll keep the Maester conspiracy either and interviews said we get Sam/Davos next season which I am sure will be just awesome.  

 

I have a horrible feeling that Shireen will be sacrificed next season, or someone will at least try to kill her, which believe me I *don't* want but this series loves to break our hearts and I think poor Shireen was always doomed.  

 

For the record, Tyrion could still be exposed to greyscale any number of ways-if Greyscale is to be his final death.  I think Martin, (and D&D) might be planning for Tyrion to go out in a blaze of glory.  

 

And I firmly believe some of the biggest TWOW spoilers will happen next season with Sansa.  I've concluded that her future plotlines were so big, (and her character arc so transformative,) that D&D felt like they *had* to get cracking on it sooner than later, which is why things were so accelerated for her in Season Four.  And I'm hoping that Sansa, (besides slaying the Titan/Littlefinger) is going to start moving North with some of those fine knights of the Vale.

[ElizaD]

I have a horrible feeling that Shireen will be sacrificed next season, or someone will at least try to kill her, which believe me I *don't* want but this series loves to break our hearts and I think poor Shireen was always doomed. 

I'm not sure about Shireen's fate myself (though it's very likely be sad), but I'm convinced that Myrcella will die in TWOW. The show has finally got to the point where it's doing some major cuts (no Arianne/Stoneheart), so I'm wondering if Show Jaime was sent to Dorne so that he can witness Myrcella get killed by the not-Darkstar they're casting. On the other hand, that would pretty much mean open war between Martell/Lannister and no Nym on the council, so the Sand Snakes might not be in a position to do whatever they're going to do in TWOW: if their actions are important, that might mean the show has to follow the book plot (Myrcella is only injured).

[Advance35]

Or they could just ensure that word doesn't reach Kings Landing about Myrcella's death.    I guess it all depends on how/what Jaimie does when he gets to Sunspear.   I mean he could see Myrcella is doing well and decide she's better off out of Kings Landing and away from the power games of Court, and willingly leave her there, only for her to die due to the plotting of House Martell.   The Martell's cover it up by passing some Kings Landing looking girl off as Myrcella from far away in the Water Gardens.   This is me spitballing but I could see it.    Although I think I have  to scratch the whole idea because whatever is going to happen to Myrcella IS going to happen in Kings Landing.

 

It's been a while but she is on her way back to the Capital with Lady Nym isn't she?

[Winnief]

Well we KNOW Myrcella will die soon enough since according to Maggi's prophecy, Cersei outlives all three of her children.  We just don't know how exactly it happens.  But Myrcella before she dies will be crowned, "Gold shall be their crowns and gold shall be their shrouds," which suggests to me that Myrcella outlives Tommen.