The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

[Eyes High]

I think it would be a lot easier for GRRM if he did meticulously plan everything out. Having armies of characters, dozens of locations, and dozens of concurrent storylines that have to intersect in precise ways at precise moments really doesn't lend itself well to an organic, free-flowing, gardener-type "I had this crazy dream last night and it gave me a cool idea, let's take that cool idea and run with it" approach. I think any author in this sort of situation would either need to have boundless cognitive capacity--and while GRRM is a thoughtful, intelligent person, I do not get the sense from him that he has that sort of ability--to keep track of everything and to incorporate new ideas smoothly without disrupting the overall story, OR to have meticulously planned and mapped everything in advance. 

 

On the other hand, I do get where GRRM is coming from. If you have meticulously planned and mapped everything out in advance, there's not much fun to be had in grimly marching through all the preplanned developments, unless you have a very specific type of personality. I think a number of sci-fi/fantasy writers, especially those with a highly technical background (engineering, e.g.), would love nothing more than planning something elaborate on the scale of ASOIAF and then executing it perfectly. Coordinating those sorts of mass movements of characters and arcs would be catnip to a certain type of writer. However, GRRM doesn't appear to be that type of writer. In an approach where everything is perfectly planned, there's no room for fun or whimsy, and I think it would be not only difficult or unpleasant for someone like GRRM, who has spoken about the joy he takes in sudden bursts of inspiration, to plan everything out perfectly and eliminate the possibility of spontaneity. Adding a deadline on top of that makes the endeavour even more grim and joyless.

 

The other thing about all this is that this was inevitable the minute HBO agreed to order GOT to series. Of course GRRM would overestimate his ability to produce books on a schedule; he has always been too optimistic. Of course GOT would become a monster hit. Of course GRRM would be overwhelmed and distracted by the newfound fame of GOT. Of course the showrunners would make the adaptation leaner and meaner and barrel through the source material. Of course GRRM would get spooked and stressed out at the prospect of catching up, even as he continued to insist that he was going to try to stay ahead of the show. Of course HBO and the publishers would plan to publish TWOW before Season 6. Of course GRRM wouldn't be able to deliver. GRRM's admission of defeat may have come in 2016, but it was sealed in 2010.

 

Even though I agree with GRRM that he has no one to blame but himself, I do feel sorry for him, especially now that he has officially admitted defeat and that the thinkpieces are flying fast and furious about his colossal fuckup.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[benteen]

I don't know how he keeps up on all the character and plotlines. 

[nksarmi]

I think someone should tell GRRM that we don't care to know what happens to all the bloody characters in the books.  I don't mean to be flip, but all he needs to do is start moving these characters to where they need to be with very short reasons as to how and why.  I don't need a detailed reason why Ayra leaves and goes back to Westerous - I just need to believe she was able to do it.  I don't give two cents about anyone in the Vale but Sansa.  I don't need to know the fate of a character like Robyn - I just need Sansa to get back into the story I actually care about. 

 

The same is true for so many other plots. Don't resolve them in detail, just wrap them up loosely and move the character I do care about back to the main story and get on with it already.  I'm pretty sure that over the course of telling us the fate of the top 30 characters he will check most other characters off the list.  The rest?  Who cares?

[benteen]

I think someone should tell GRRM that we don't care to know what happens to all the bloody characters in the books.  I don't mean to be flip, but all he needs to do is start moving these characters to where they need to be with very short reasons as to how and why.  I don't need a detailed reason why Ayra leaves and goes back to Westerous - I just need to believe she was able to do it.  I don't give two cents about anyone in the Vale but Sansa.  I don't need to know the fate of a character like Robyn - I just need Sansa to get back into the story I actually care about. 

 

The same is true for so many other plots. Don't resolve them in detail, just wrap them up loosely and move the character I do care about back to the main story and get on with it already.  I'm pretty sure that over the course of telling us the fate of the top 30 characters he will check most other characters off the list.  The rest?  Who cares?

 

Agreed.  I want Dany and Arya back at Westeros.  I'm not worried about the Meerenese knot....

 

One of my big disappointments with ADWD is that I thought it would end with Tyrion finally meeting Dany.  But Tyrion's story in ADWD is literally traveling from Point A to Point B and by the end of it, reveling in world-building.  Not only doesn't he meet Dany but he's not even close to meeting her because Dany is going to be spending a lot of time dancing with Dothraki.  The Dothraki storyline should be wrapped up in a single chapter.  Dany gets back on her dragon, roasts alive the Dothraki Khal from A Game of Thrones and tells the rest of those savages that they either join her in going to Westeros or die.  I do NOT need to read a dozen chapters of Dany in the Dothraki Sea, mingling with the Dothraki.  But that is what we're going to get because according to GRRM, the Dothraki are going to "be back in a big way."

[Constantinople]

I could combine the next two books into one and wrap up the series with just two sentences.  However, it would require introducing yet another character(!), albeit one that has been mentioned in the show:

 

And then Macumber the blue-eyed giant woke up.

 

Fin

from A Dream of Tommy Westphall's Spring.

[SeanC]

I think someone should tell GRRM that we don't care to know what happens to all the bloody characters in the books.  I don't mean to be flip, but all he needs to do is start moving these characters to where they need to be with very short reasons as to how and why.  I don't need a detailed reason why Ayra leaves and goes back to Westerous - I just need to believe she was able to do it.  I don't give two cents about anyone in the Vale but Sansa.  I don't need to know the fate of a character like Robyn - I just need Sansa to get back into the story I actually care about. 

Those stories exist to develop the characters and their skills.  In Sansa's case, especially, the Vale is meant to provide a stage for growth as a player with more modest initial stakes, something that would be impossible elsewhere (as the show aptly demonstrated).

[nksarmi]

Those stories exist to develop the characters and their skills.  In Sansa's case, especially, the Vale is meant to provide a stage for growth as a player with more modest initial stakes, something that would be impossible elsewhere (as the show aptly demonstrated).

I get it - I do. But for me, the number of stories that I find interesting are starting to be outnumbered by the ones I don't care about and I think GRRM is just giving us too much damn detail.  Some - many - writers and show runners don't give you enough.  It's life "poof" someone just suddenly pulled off some plot point and we don't know why or how but we just have to go with it.  But GRRM has made me discover that you can go way too far in the other direction. 

 

For example, even if Euron or Victorian are going to be important to getting Dany to Westerous in some capacity or destabilizing the realm even more to bring the Lannisters or Tyrells down - I'm still not sure I needed to read about any of the Iron Born King's moot stuff.  I really think he could have spared me those chapters and just told me through some exposition fairy all about Balon's brothers and what they are rumored to be up to.  And it pains me to say it, but as much as I love Ayra - I'm not sure I need her Bravos story anymore than I need Sansa's Vale story.  He could have cut both of those stories in half and I don't think we would have missed much - better yet, he could have just had the sisters meet up again and tell each other what they went through and give me the cliff notes version along the way.

 

And finally there is Dany's story in Meereen.  I don't want it anymore.  I don't like it - it makes me like her less and unless he plans to move all of Westerous to Meereen so I have a bloody reason to care about what happens there - I'm over it.  And the last thing in the world I want is Dany with the Dorthraki and her loyal comrades attempting to hold Meereen in her place.  At this point, I don't even want her to go to Westerous - I just don't care anymore.  Give me Aegon (fake or not) over Dany any day at this point.

[loki567]

I wouldn't touch any of Arya, Sansa, and Tyrion's chapters because like it's been said, it's character development for the story's major characters. But the Kingsmoot, Dorne, (f)Aegon? All of this stuff could be told in one of the pre-existing PoVs. I mean literally the entire Kingsmoot storyline could have been told in one of Theon's PoVs when he gets captured by Stannis. "Father's dead, Euron took over as King, he sent Victarion east, I'm trying to get you to challenge him." Boom. And when Victarion shows up in a couple chapters at Meereen, nobody in the audience would complain. Similar to how if Aegon's established in Tyrion's chapters and then pops up later as a problem Cersei or Sam, I also don't think the audience would complain about tight, economical storytelling. 

 

It's strange how I think GRRM and D&D are both out-of-whack in how they're telling the later parts of this story. GRRM going way too big and complicated, D&D going way too small and shallow. 

[Lady S.]

Really, in very broad strokes, don't we all have a decent idea of how the books will play out? Others invade. Dany invades, Dothraki in tow. Tyrion rides a dragon. All the "exile" characters--Dany, Tyrion, Arya, etc.--make it back to Westeros. The KL factions (Tyrells, Lannisters, Team Aegon, Martells, Faith, etc.) exhaust or eliminate each other, leaving a convenient power vacuum for whoever ultimately ends up in charge. Jaime kills Cersei. Sansa gets rid of Littlefinger. Starks reunite. Team Humanity fights Team Others and wins. Most of the Greyjoys die. Jon becomes king. 

Well, judging from the fact that just about every thread here involves increasingly pointless arguments about endgame theories and hypothetical scenarios, I think we all have pretty different ideas of how the books will play out, so it's hard to say which ideas are decent or not.

[benteen]

I read once that GRRM love writing about Arya's adventures in Braavos.  I didn't care for them much...it just seemed like more reveling in world-building for me and I want to see Arya and Tyrion in Westeros, a place I actually care about reading (although Arya's Mercy chapter is good).

 

That was another reason Tyrion's ADWD storyline disappointed...I like seeing him in Westeros with familiar characters.  Him in Essos just doesn't do much for me.  I was looking forward to his interaction with Jorah and found it to be disappointing (although the two characters worked a lot better on-screen and that was because of the actors involved).

[nodorothyparker]

That's been one of my recurring issues with Dany and Co. all along.  We're introduced to Westeros.  We're told that's where everything big is happening and where everyone important is.  And sure, the Targaryens are exiled when our story starts and can't just show up in Kings Landing still the Beggar King and Queen.  They have to start somewhere.  But she's been completely bogged down on the other side of the world surrounded by foreigners unlikely to figure into the resolution for five books now.  Then add Arya and then Tyrion and their separate foreign journeys surrounded by separate foreign casts.  It gets really hard to care after awhile when the story is supposed to be Westeros.

[WearyTraveler]

I'm thinking of trying the Shannara trilogy to tide me over until WoW is published (at this rate, though, I may just end up reading an entire fantasy library before that. LOL).

 

Any of you fantasy readers have an opinion on those books?

 

MTV (of all people) is doing a series with Jon Favreau as Executive Producer, which I found out when I saw an interview with him on a late night talk show.  I saw the first four episodes and it's not bad.  A little young skewing, but ok for mindless entertainment.  So, I was wondering if the books were any good.

 

Thoughts?

[nksarmi]

I think my real problem with Ayra's story isn't that it is boring - it would have been interesting for a chapter or two.  The problem is that I want her back in Westerous already.  I'm starting to feel really sad that she didn't turn back North and end up with one of the Northern houses posing as a serving girl as she worked her way to the Wall.  Do you know how much more invested I would be in her story if she kept herself hidden while hearing all these rumors of her imposter marrying Ramsey?  And maybe she even interacted with Davos and joined his journey to find Rickon before she reveals herself in the next book? 

 

I assumed for a long time that Ayra - like Tyrion - were where they are in the story so they can join Dany's story and help her return to Westerous with a Lannister and Stark supporting her.  If she's going to be the conquering hero who joins with Jon to save the realm - that made sense to me.  But I feel like GRRM didn't do anything in book five to move the story in that direction so I'm starting to be sad that he didn't ship Tyrion off to Dorne and let him play with Doran for awhile and keep Ayra in the North.

[benteen]

It's sci-fi but I would recommend the Red Rising series by Pierce Brown, WearyTraveler.  The first two books have been great and the final book in the trilogy is out next month.  While it is definitely influenced by Game of Thrones and The Hunger Games, this series more than stands up on its own and the world-building is fascinating.

 

On the subject of Arya, I thought the Faceless Men would send her to Meereen to kill Dany since Dany has a weakness for kids.  I don't see that as happening though.

Edited January 7, 2016 by benteen

[feverfew]

I'm thinking of trying the Shannara trilogy to tide me over until WoW is published (at this rate, though, I may just end up reading an entire fantasy library before that. LOL).

 

Any of you fantasy readers have an opinion on those books?

 

MTV (of all people) is doing a series with Jon Favreau as Executive Producer, which I found out when I saw an interview with him on a late night talk show.  I saw the first four episodes and it's not bad.  A little young skewing, but ok for mindless entertainment.  So, I was wondering if the books were any good.

 

Thoughts?

The books themselves are a bit paint-by-numbers (especially "The Sword of Shannara" is almost word for word LotR) but Elfstones (which the new series is build upon) does have some great twists. His later books are not as great, but still entertaining.

 

Speaking of fantasy series made into tv shows, I just finished The Magician-series by Lev Grossman. It's sort of Harry Potter with sex and swearing. I hope the show'll live up to the books...

 

It's sci-fi but I would recommend the Red Rising series by Pierce Brown, WearyTraveler.  The first two books have been great and the final book in the trilogy is out next month.  While it is definitely influenced by Game of Thrones and The Hunger Games, this series more than stands up on its own and the world-building is fascinating.

Seconded! I was really impressed with these books and I can't wait to get my hands on Morning Star!

[ElizaD]

That's been one of my recurring issues with Dany and Co. all along.  We're introduced to Westeros.  We're told that's where everything big is happening and where everyone important is.  And sure, the Targaryens are exiled when our story starts and can't just show up in Kings Landing still the Beggar King and Queen.  They have to start somewhere.  But she's been completely bogged down on the other side of the world surrounded by foreigners unlikely to figure into the resolution for five books now.  Then add Arya and then Tyrion and their separate foreign journeys surrounded by separate foreign casts.  It gets really hard to care after awhile when the story is supposed to be Westeros.

 

That's one of the reasons I hated the Aegon twist. Five books of Dany (and later Arya and Tyrion) stuck in places where the lack of local POVs (or even well-developed local characters) shouts that this is only the starter kingdom that's going to be left behind once the Westerosi have screwed up and presumably learned a few lessons at the cost of disposable Essosi lives/political systems without having to deal with the long-term consequences of their decisions. And then this dude gets to Westeros in one book! Dany could have been interacting with or plotting against characters like Tywin or Doran, but no, let's have her show up when everybody interesting has been deposed/killed off and Westeros needs a savior with dragons. After Drogo (who was a decent enough badass type, though not a developed character), I think the only Essosi fans have actually talked about is Daario and that's because he's so ridiculous. There's no scene stealers like Oberyn over there. Dany's entire court could be slaughtered and the majority of fans would only miss Tyrion/Jorah/Barristan.

 

I'm thinking of trying the Shannara trilogy to tide me over until WoW is published (at this rate, though, I may just end up reading an entire fantasy library before that. LOL).

 

Any of you fantasy readers have an opinion on those books?

 

I read the books as a tween and have no idea what an adult reader would think of them in a post-ASOIAF world, but I imagine they could still be decent adventure stories if you don't expect grittiness or deconstruction of fantasy tropes. Elfstones, which the TV show is based on, is the one with a plot and characters I can still remember so I'd guess it was the best, and then there's The Druid (he goes to a forgotten city?)/The Elf Queen (the heroine has to find lost elves?) of Shannara, but I've completely forgotten the others.

[benteen]

 

And then this dude gets to Westeros in one book! Dany could have been interacting with or plotting against characters like Tywin or Doran, but no, let's have her show up when everybody interesting has been deposed/killed off and Westeros needs a savior with dragons.

 

Good God, yes!  This has been one of my chief problems.  Dany has been talking about the Usurper and his dogs forever but they are all pretty much dead.  The only two still alive are Jaime and Stannis and their long-term fates don't look very promising.  I realize that's a theme of Game of Thrones.  The best-laid plans never go the way you want them and you rarely get revenge on those who have wronged you (or if you do, it's at the cost of your own life like Oberyn).  But with the death of so many of the people who "did her family wrong" it has greatly decreased my interest in Dany returning home and taking back what she thinks is hers.  If Tywin was still alive, the return of Dany would be very exciting but he's long dead.  Dany's revenge just isn't that interesting because all the interesting characters are gone.

 

She is the gunslinger who shows up in town only to find out that the town's legendary gunslinger has long since been killed.  This is a case where all the deaths GRRM has written has backfired.   Now, it might further strengthened the idea that Dany's true enemy is the White Walkers.  But having Dany square off against Tywin or Robert would have been far more interesting.

 

 

After Drogo (who was a decent enough badass type, though not a developed character), I think the only Essosi fans have actually talked about is Daario and that's because he's so ridiculous. There's no scene stealers like Oberyn over there. Dany's entire court could be slaughtered and the majority of fans would only miss Tyrion/Jorah/Barristan.

 

Strong Belwas is a cool character but he's not essential at all in the general scheme of things.

Edited January 7, 2016 by benteen

[John Potts]

Characters, no matter how well written or believable, are generally only interesting when they interact with other characters. One reason I wanted to have Tyrion meet Danny is because I actually care what happens to both of them: I may care about Arya, but until she goes to meet another character (maybe with a contract out on them), it's hard to believe anything bad that happens to her is going to have any long term effect. Likewise Sansa in the Vale*: OK, she can talk to Littlefinger and is (maybe) learning to become more of a player herself (...slowly), but Sweetrobin, the Lords Unmemorable and Lord Don'tCare are such non entities that I just want her to get to somewhere that actually matters. OK, maybe Sweetrobin (or any other character I don't care about) could end up suddenly becoming significant and maybe end up on the throne, but if so... they're really underwritten. Look a how everyone is already dismissing Tommen (and he IS King) - even if he is fated to die, that doesn't mean it has to be a meaningless death, but people (including me) assume it will be because otherwise we'd hear more about what his hopes & dreams are (Robb, for example, died in his teens, but that didn't mean he had no impact, even if it ended ignominiously).

 

OK, I'm rambling. Tl,Dr version: have characters interact with each other, or I won't care (JMO, naturally)!

 

* Actually, I think GRRM had a simple out there: keep Lysa alive. It would mean we'd see Littlefinger having to juggle keeping Lysa happy against his long term interest in Sansa, who in turn has to stay safe amidst two insane relatives while Robin tries to assert his rightful authority against both his mother and step father. Ultimately I imagine Lysa would have come to the same end (she's just not important enough to Littlefinger's overall ambitions), but keeping her alivewould have given more plot possibilities

[benteen]

Heheh.  I think GRRM got rid of his original editor after the third book although I'm not completely sure.  I know he once wrote a post about complaining about editors (I read that quite a while ago), which explains how we are in this current situation.

 

He's earned his success and the right to tell editors no.  I totally understand that.  But I think a strong editor is what keeps a lot of these writers in line and GRRM would really benefit from it.  His current editor is the one who suggested he take the final 200 pages of A Dance with Dragons and put it into The Winds of Winter.  So she gets some points there but I think she has very little input otherwise.  She talked about how she once suggested that he stop using the phrase "words are wind."  He had apparently used it several times in ADWD.  But he refused saying "that's how these characters speak."  If GRRM's editor can't get him to stop using a repetitive phrase, then there's not much she can do to get him in line.

Edited January 7, 2016 by benteen

[benteen]

Don't forget too that we will be getting Skagos in the next book.  While that should be a cool location, when I read that part in the book my first thought was that the only reason that Rickon is in Skagos is because GRRM wants to do more world-building.  That is my one and only thought on the subject and it still is.

 

Since we are going to Skagos, I hope Robett Glover goes along with Davos.

[Mya Stone]

Guys, we have PLENTY of threads to discuss the show vs the books. This is not the place.

Posts discussing the show have been hidden. This is a book thread. Believe it or not, we have book readers here who haven't seen any of season 5, and would like to remain unspoiled in a book thread. We have a whole forum dedicated to this show - but this is the BOOKS subforum. Refrain from discussing the show in this. Thanks!

[Fable]

“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.” - GRRM

Thank all the gods JK Rowling is an architect - she had an outline mapped out for each of her novels to help keep her writing schedule disciplined.  GRRM needs to stop gardening and get on with resolving plots, if he's going to get on with it at all.  

 

 

Oh I don't care if GRRM is a gardener.  The fact remains he needs to tend to his garden in order for it to grow, and it's obvious he has long neglected it. It's covered with weeds and parched from lack of nourishment.  I'm pretty much over the books at this point.  He can write or not write for all I care. I doubt I will read any more of them.  

 

I think this thread Title should be renamed from Book 6 will arrive someday to Book 6 will arrive somebody (or will it?) or to Book 6 may arrive some day.  

Edited January 12, 2016 by Fable

[Which Tyler]

I've never really understood the impatience with an author - I'd far rather he publishes the book he wants to publish, than just get something out to get people off his back.

If/when it's out, then I'll chose to read it or ignore it; and the choice is entirely mine, and the time frame between first and last books will be utterly irrelevant. GRRM himself should be far more worried about his legacy; within 5 years of the last book being published, absolutely no-one will give a damn about how long it took, and will judge him solely on the merit of the books.

 

In the mean-time, this reader has millions of other books to choose from and to read; I've no intention of sitting on my hands saying "woe is me, I can't read the book I want to because no-one has written it yet".

There are other books, and other authors people.

[benteen]

I think the frustration is that he's allowed his writing to get completely out of control and unwieldy.  He basically spent over a decade writing one book that he broke up into two and they were the weakest books of the series.  His updates sound increasingly unpromising and I can't shake the feeling that he's just not that interested in writing in the world of A Song of Ice and Fire (novellas and making-of books aside).  Add that to the constant delays and it's not a promising picture.

[vibeology]

I think the other frustration is the show barreling down on him. People who started reading the books years ago may have been content to wait for the eventual last books, but with the show now on top of the narrative, the ending of this story is far more likely to be revealed on screen than off. Many people who enjoy reading the stories preferred to get their ending that way, with the detailed and the nuanced characterization you just don't get from a TV show. (Any TV show, I'm not even going to comment on the quality of the show as it is.) There's no POVs, no internal monologues, foreshadowing is a very different thing in print and on film etc. And, lets not pretend it'll be easy to avoid spoilers. When season 5 ended, the internet was full of spoilers pretty much right away. I'm resigned to the fact that the show is going to be the first to end this story. I knew that when Martin didn't get a book out a few years ago there would be no time for him to write two books before the show ended its run, but I am disappointed in how this story is being told and would have vastly preferred a world where there was no show and I could wait for the books.

[Lady S.]

His updates sound increasingly unpromising and I can't shake the feeling that he's just not that interested in writing in the world of A Song of Ice and Fire (novellas and making-of books aside).  Add that to the constant delays and it's not a promising picture.

I'd say it's the plot of his original story that he is no longer so engaged with, his love of the world he's creating was part of the problem in Feast/Dance. I suspect that when he wrote the first three books he was burning with ideas for Act I of his story (which was all supposed to be the first book in a trilogy) with a general idea of the endgame, and thought he'd just figure out later what came after the War of the Five King to get the characters to their endgames. But when that time came he didn't have more great ideas to advance the plot, just ways to make the plot more complicated with more characters and plotpoints to advance, which meant it was even harder to find the way to get to his endgame. 

[benteen]

He clearly loves the world-building and is definitely interested in more Targayean-related stories.  I completely agree there.

Edited January 12, 2016 by benteen

[WearyTraveler]

I'm not impatient, but I am disappointed.  I think it's fair for readers to want to read the ending intended by the author.  We obviously like this story (some aspects better than others for each of us) and we like his ideas, otherwise, we wouldn't read what he writes.

 

I think part of the frustration, for me, is that he says he wants to finish it, he says he cares about this story, he says he wants to give us his ending, he says he wants to finish before the TV show is done, but everything he does runs counter to any of those objectives (except his statement a while back that he was going to focus on writing and avoid other events to do so).  What he does is: write other stories, attend events, write for the TV show, and other stuff.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, he's free to do whatever he wants, but there's definitely a disconnect between his stated intentions and his actions.  If he really does want us to read his ending and if he really does want to finish, there are many things he can try to achieve those objectives, such as having a shadow writer, let others help, and many more, I'm sure.  But he also refuses to do any of that, and then it's just apologies to fans and being upset because people ask him when he thinks he is going to finish.

 

If it's all so painful for him to do, then he should just say "you know what? I really don't feel like writing the end of this thing.  It bores me now". Then he could add "my my planned ending is ........" or "I'll let the TV show finish the story and work alongside D&D to ensure the conclusion is one that reflects my planned ending" or "I'll hire so and so to finish the story according to my vision". And then he can move on, stress free, to continue doing whatever tickles his fancy the most.

 

I think as readers we sort of make a tacit contract with a writer: you write and I pay you money to read but I expect a full story, not for you to stop in the middle and never give me a conclusion.  There's no time limit attached, off course, but GRRM himself sets the expectations, so, here we are.

[nksarmi]

Well I came to the book series because of the show, so if all I ever get is the show's ending - I will be content.  But I do think he owes his fans an ending every bit as much as King needed to go back and wrap up the Dark Tower series.  If you can't finish a series - you shouldn't write one.  More specifically, don't write series that you HAVE to complete.  Instead, write a series with reoccurring characters but where each book feels like it has an ending so that it doesn't matter if you lose interest and stop writing those books.

 

GRRM choose to write a series with a looming endgame and all the relevant foreshadowing that goes with that.  As a result, its unfair to his fans to leave things unresolved.  If he lacks the vision or the discipline to finish his work - would it really be so bad if he enlisted a little help to move things along?  Would it be so bad to have a co-author or worst case scenario - a ghost writer to get most of the content down and then he could just fiddle with the details?

[Constantinople]

Game of Thrones was first published on August 6, 1996.

(Bill) Clinton was still in his first term as President of the US, and John Major was Prime Minister of the UK.

The No. 1 song in was the Macarena (US) and Wannabe by the Spice Girls (UK).

Princess Diana was still alive and Windows 95 was less than a year old

Get on with it.

[Eyes High]

From Den of Geek's article listing the information gleaned from the Season 5 Blu-ray commentaries:

 

109. Although it has yet to feature in A Song Of Ice And Fire, George R.R. Martin has confirmed that it was always his intention for Stannis and Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen to the God of Light.

 

Huh. I mean, D&D seemed to say as much in the Inside the Episode segment for that episode, but I'm still a bit surprised.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Eyes High

[benteen]

I wonder when that is supposed to happen in the books.

 

Whatever the case, D&D still did a shitty job with the Stannis character, so I won't let them off the hook for that.

[Avaleigh]

I'm one of a handful of people that thinks Stannis is dead *and* that book!Shireen will burn so this doesn't surprise me at all.

More surprising to me are the people who still think that Stannis has a huge role to play. I think his story will be wrapped up in the first quarter of the book. 

 

ETA:

 

I agree though that the show failed with Stannis's character. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Avaleigh

[loki567]

I just wonder about the motive and the timing. I could believe Stannis burning Shireen but I think it's going to have to be his absolute last card to play and figures that the Boltons getting their hands on her would be an even worse fate. That means he's going to lose the Battle of Winterfell, which I always suspected because narratively speaking, it's going to have to be the Starks who deal with the Boltons and retake Winterfell. It would lose some punch if Stannis does it and then hands it over to Jon, Rickon, and/or Sansa. 

 

So I'm wondering what's Jon's status when Shireen's death happens? Is he still "dead," and could it even play a part in his resurrection? Maybe some proof of Jon's Targaryen lineage? 

[GreyBunny]

I don't think Shireen is going to be burned so Stannis can win some small battle like in the show, it'll be when things are absolutely dire - winter has hit hard, there is famine, disease, the Others, every living thing is dying...  Stannis will burn her as a last desperate attempt to appeal to some god to save humanity.  

 

I think Stannis will defeat the Boltons but there won't be much time to breathe as the Others will make their appearance and that's when the fun begins.

[nksarmi]

I'm not even sure Stannis IS going to burn Shireen. Just because Martin said she dies like that in the books doesn't mean Stannis is the one to make that call.  Mel could do it on her own.

 

In other news, the more I think about it - the more I believe Aegon is a dragon.  I don't know if he's Rhaegar's son or a Blackfyre but I do think he's a dragon. I don't know why GRRM would have introduced him at all if it wasn't to fulfill the "three dragon must have three heads" thing that has been hammered on for so long.

 

But I will say, if he is the real deal - then the biggest thing I'm looking forward to in this book (I hope) is him and Jon meeting and discovering they are brothers and hopefully joining together to defeat the Others.  I guess Dany can come play too if she ever decides she wants to leave Meereen.

[Avaleigh]

I'm not even sure Stannis IS going to burn Shireen. Just because Martin said she dies like that in the books doesn't mean Stannis is the one to make that call.  Mel could do it on her own.

 

In other news, the more I think about it - the more I believe Aegon is a dragon.  I don't know if he's Rhaegar's son or a Blackfyre but I do think he's a dragon. I don't know why GRRM would have introduced him at all if it wasn't to fulfill the "three dragon must have three heads" thing that has been hammered on for so long.

 

But I will say, if he is the real deal - then the biggest thing I'm looking forward to in this book (I hope) is him and Jon meeting and discovering they are brothers and hopefully joining together to defeat the Others.  I guess Dany can come play too if she ever decides she wants to leave Meereen.

Why do you think the show wouldn't include Aegon though if he's one of the three heads? 

 

Spoilers for season 6

I think the clips that we've seen of Tyrion with Rhaegal and Viserion are setting it up so that he'll be one of the heads. I think Jon is easily the other rider.

 

I can't decide on how Faegon will die yet but I do think he'll burn out quickly and that Arianne will go down in flames with him. Maybe Euron will take him out. I feel like Euron will do more than one thing to anger Dany and I feel like she'd be pissed if she were to find out that he killed her "nephew". 

[nksarmi]

I feel like the show might either ignore the dragon's three heads or might replace one with someone established on the show.  In this case - I think it's Aegon in the books, but it might be Tyrion on the show.  I know that would be a huge swerve, but I wouldn't be surprised if the show went that far off the rails.  They seem pretty far off when it comes to Jamie .

[DigitalCount]

I'm not even sure Stannis IS going to burn Shireen. Just because Martin said she dies like that in the books doesn't mean Stannis is the one to make that call.  Mel could do it on her own.

Mel could do it on her own, but what would be the point? In-universe, AA doesn't get someone else to stab Nissa Nissa, he does it himself and that's who Stannis believes himself to be. From a Doylist perspective, it has always seemed like Shireen's story with Stannis was headed here. If someone else swoops in and saves Stannis from having to make the choice to kill Shireen, that's not really a story.

 

For the how, well, Mel has access to powers that allow her to see people in the flames across long distances. All we really need is an Asha POV where Stannis' army has been decimated by a combination of snow and Ramsey, and she sees him off to the side, crawling through the snow, muttering something like "do it, I know you can hear me." That way, Stanstans can continue believing that he would never, because plausible deniability, but everyone else would conclude that he's giving Melisandre permission.

[WearyTraveler]

I have no problem believing that book Stanis would burn Shireen, as much as it pains me. He did, after all, kill his own brother, and even though he seemed to be feeling guilty about that for a while, by the last book he barely gives Renly a passing thought.

 

I think what might end up happening is that he's all set up to burn Asha (royal blood, because she's Balon's daughter) but she somehow escapes and he ends up having no other royal blood close at hand. Since Shireen is not with him in the books, I suspect he'll send a raven/fast rider authorizing Mel to do it as per a previous agreement we'll discover they had.

[mrspidey]

New Arianne-excerpt!

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

And guess what, it's more travellogue. Yay...

Edited May 11, 2016 by mrspidey

[SeanC]

He's read this at cons in the past, but it's nice to be able to read it.

I'll be amused to see the reporting on this in the wider media, since it features a plotline that isn't in the show at all.

Edited May 11, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, mrspidey said:

New Arianne-excerpt!

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

And guess what, it's more travellogue. Yay...

It is "new" in the sense that it hasn't been posted on GRRM's website before, but given that the chapter was written in 2010 and read for the first time at Worldcon 2011, it's not "new" at all. This is another chapter that got bounced from ADWD, where--wait for it--nothing happens.

[ElizaD]

Despite the showrunners' screwups, this chapter shows why I don't judge them for stuff like Littlefinger's amazing teleporter; it's more of an amusing fandom joke than a real annoyance. If journeys go on and on and on they need to feel like they're building characterization or plot in ways that couldn't be done once the destination has been reached; I don't get that feeling here and just long for the days when Cat could get from Winterfell to KL without having to spend multiple chapters on debating rumors and wondering about the political situation Ned is dealing with.

[Jazzy24]

14 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Despite the showrunners' screwups, this chapter shows why I don't judge them for stuff like Littlefinger's amazing teleporter; it's more of an amusing fandom joke than a real annoyance. If journeys go on and on and on they need to feel like they're building characterization or plot in ways that couldn't be done once the destination has been reached; I don't get that feeling here and just long for the days when Cat could get from Winterfell to KL without having to spend multiple chapters on debating rumors and wondering about the political situation Ned is dealing with.

GRRM did really good in the first three books with the travelogues after that it was just all over the place. 

[benteen]

37 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Despite the showrunners' screwups, this chapter shows why I don't judge them for stuff like Littlefinger's amazing teleporter; it's more of an amusing fandom joke than a real annoyance. If journeys go on and on and on they need to feel like they're building characterization or plot in ways that couldn't be done once the destination has been reached; I don't get that feeling here and just long for the days when Cat could get from Winterfell to KL without having to spend multiple chapters on debating rumors and wondering about the political situation Ned is dealing with.

Littlefinger's teleporter is a good source of laughs but I never had an issue with it either.  I don't need the kind of sustained travelogues that GRRM revels in writing.

Tyrion's journey through Volantis was an exercise in frustration.  I think it really got to me during the scene after Jorah kidnaps him and they're riding on a horse through the city.  You kind of realize at that point that it's just not going to end.  I've been critical of D&D a lot but I give them a lot of credit for absolutely slashing through Tyrion's travelogue and getting him to Dany in about what, 6 or 7 episodes?  And they still managed to show us stuff like the Long Bridge of Volantis and gave us a pretty good sequence with the Stone Men.  I also found Show Tyrion and Jorah's interaction much better than their show counterparts interaction.

[nodorothyparker]

I heard about this early today and realized I just don't care anymore.  Skimming an article to learn that it's yet another travelogue and has been bouncing around for a full half decade already didn't change that opinion at all for me.  Enough with the dribbles and drabbles.

[benteen]

A half decade...that's scary when you think about it.

[nodorothyparker]

Yes, it really is.  Which is why unless or until George decides to pleasantly surprise me by actually finishing a book, I've made peace with the very real possibility that the show is the only resolution to any of this I'm ever going to see. 

[vibeology]

Every time I see activity in this thread I think for a second that they've announced a date for the book, but then I remember its George and I probably will never see the end of this series.