Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Proteus]

11 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

“final episodes”?   

I don't think he meant final episodes of the series, he probably means season.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Proteus

[Starfish35]

Yeah I would assume so; it’s just odd wording.  I mean, if this was going to be Legends’ final season, I would assume they would have announced it already like they did for Arrow and Supernatural (and pretty much every other non-freshman CW show that’s ended the last few years). All that being said.....it still caught my attention, and made me wonder just a tiny little bit whether there might not be an announcement at SDCC.

[Proteus]

I do not think they are announcing Legends is canceled at SDCC. We would know by now if the show was canceled.

[Featherhat]

It did catch my attention as well and I'd kind of been expecting it so I did some quick googling. I don't know about SDCC, since they aren't having a panel there: Is there anywhere else they could announce it? They might not have done so at the same time as Arrow and SPN because they didn't know. 

That said, I don't think that was what NcD meant in his quote, just the end of the season, presumably via Astra for the big showdown. Cool to hear he really enjoy his last season of LOT, it was different for the character and he doesn't often play Dads in that way. But then he always looks like he's having fun with Damien. 

[Proteus]

4 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

It did catch my attention as well and I'd kind of been expecting it so I did some quick googling. I don't know about SDCC, since they aren't having a panel there: Is there anywhere else they could announce it? They might not have done so at the same time as Arrow and SPN because they didn't know. 

That said, I don't think that was what NcD meant in his quote, just the end of the season, presumably via Astra for the big showdown. 

 I do not think they are sending someone to SDCC to announce Legends is canceled. There's no reason to think the CW made some decision in the last few months to end it & announce it now.

[Proteus]

I was able to get the new SDCC preview issue. Season 5 scoop:

Klemmer says if Ray is really courting Nora, you have to bring back Damien who is the literal dad from Hell.

The show will get back to being more about time travel. Expect monstrous humans like Genghis Khan, Calligula, John Wayne Gacy, and Charles Manson.

Zari resents her brother for joining the Legends. Klemmer says its like Wonder Twins powers, except you have to fight for them. There's only one totem and the siblings have animosity and bitterness between them.

Sara & Ava can make their relationship work as long as Sara can handle Ava calling the shots. Klemmer says their looking to mix things up for them, not mess things up for them.

A big part of next season will tie the shows mythology to some of Charlie's back story.

Klemmer hopes to do a Constantine origin story showing how he got involved in magic.

[Sakura12]

Shouldn't they have tied Charlie to the mythical creatures last season. Instead they kind of forgot she was there to focus on Nate and Time Bureau. 

And Sara's storyline is still going to be focused on Ava. So Ava is Sara's boss, that's why she didn't really feel like the leader anymore. My interest in next season is still at 0. 

[Proteus]

It would have made more sense to explore Charlie last season but at least it seems like they may do it next season.

Hopefully the Sara/Ava stuff will be explained better next weekend.

I am glad it sounds like Zari will get story not just about Nate.

[lurker22]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

And Sara's storyline is still going to be focused on Ava. So Ava is Sara's boss, that's why she didn't really feel like the leader anymore. My interest in next season is still at 0.  

Will there ever be a spoiler about Sara that doesn't have the words "Ava", "relationship" and "love interest" in them? And why is Ava's Sara's boss now? Aren't they supposed to be equals, at least? I feel like they're stripping away Sara's individuality and power that she gained in S2.

Edited July 14, 2019 by lurker22

[Sakura12]

7 hours ago, lurker22 said:

Will there ever be a spoiler about Sara that doesn't have the words "Ava", "relationship" and "love interest" in them? And why is Ava's Sara's boss now? Aren't they supposed to be equals, at least? I feel like they're stripping away Sara's individuality and power that she gained in S2.

Last season they were going on about how Sara and Ava are two women in positions of power and have to make their relationship work. Then somehow in that Ava became Sara's boss, making Sara lose most of her power. I didn't even feel like she was the Captain of the team last season. And for me anyone trained by Rip doesn't give me much confidence in their leadership skills.  

What made Sara a great leader is she listens to her team and to others. She makes decisions based on empathy, logic and what is for the greater good. She doesn't follow a bunch of rules someone wrote down in a handbook. She follows her heart. Rip and Ava don't think like that.  Ava asked Sara how she keeps her team in line, the answer is Sara's trusts them. Even if they screw up, she trusts them to do the right thing when it truly counts. She doesn't boss them around or ask them to change. She lets them be them. That's how Sara gets people to follow her. I know they won't ever acknowledge it on any of the other shows. They should, Sara got 2 criminals in Captain Cold and Heatwave to become heroes, the loner Constantine to become a team player, and made Damian Darhk to join her to save his daughter. None of the special Trinity have done that. 

I haven't rewatched any of the episodes this season but I have watched Sara's Arrow episode multiple times because I got to see Sara again. I got to see people l thinking Sara is awesome, I got to see her fight again and actually have conversations with other people where she talked about her feelings. That showed me how much the Sara I loved disappeared on Legends. 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Sakura12

[lurker22]

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I know they won't ever acknowledge it on any of the other shows. They should, Sara got 2 criminals in Captain Cold and Heatwave to become heroes, the loner Constantine to become a team player, and made Damian Darhk to join her to save his daughter. None of the special Trinity have done that. 

They're too busy portraying the Legends, Sara included, as screw-ups and a joke, to recognize Sara's leadership skills (and that includes the Legends writers themselves sometimes). But to be fair, I haven't seen much of Captain Sara Lance doing her thing last season.

[Featherhat]

They play fast and loose on how the TB and the Legends operate. Remember when they had Sara say she didn't pay Rory and suddenly the Legends handed the TB the massive very meta bill? This is just more of that annoying handwaving. I think Ava is ok and Avalance still isn't my favourite but I hated it was Sara's only real plot. Then again I wouldn't have liked it if BS had come over and *that* had been her plot either.  My hopes are a lot lower than last year, so the only way is up? I thought 2/3rds of 4 was good, just 1/3rd really sucked, which isn't unusual for this 'verse. 

20 hours ago, lurker22 said:

They're too busy portraying the Legends, Sara included, as screw-ups and a joke, to recognize Sara's leadership skills (and that includes the Legends writers themselves sometimes). But to be fair, I haven't seen much of Captain Sara Lance doing her thing last season.

They've gone so far on the "we're awesome, funny screw ups" ride that it's like everyone going on about Oliver's darkness or about how Barry and Kara poop unicorns and fairydust, just "their thing" within the Arrowverse and no coming back. I'd rather be a self identified screw up on a time ship then someone who kept calling myself a hero. But I'd rather be a Legend than anything else. Since they do keep attracting both good guys and bad guys alike who seem to have a lot of fun on their show (still) I think the characters agree. 

I will forgive them a lot of things if Zari's story is not mostly about Nate, like how Amaya's mostly wasn't. Come on, I know TA will be awesome even as alt!Zari but give me this. She would rock what they're describing. 

Charlie should definitely have been used much more given the storyline and her introduction but better late then never. 

Astra and Constantine's origin story as played out on LOT, never would have I ever guessed that back circa Arrow 4x5 when he brought Sara back. 

[BaggythePanther]

Personally season 3 was my favorite so I was looking forward to season four being just as good or better. In hindsight I should have realized the only way to go was down. I feel like season 3 will be the equivalent of Arrow season 2 and Flash season 1.

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

My hopes are a lot lower than last year, so the only way is up? I thought 2/3rds of 4 was good, just 1/3rd really sucked, which isn't unusual for this 'verse.

I agree with your assessment, @Featherhat. And based on how things turned out last season I’m only expecting 75% of the storylines to happen. 

[Sakura12]

I think S2 is still my favorite season. I really enjoyed S3. S4 managed to make S1 look better. While that season had some awful characters in the Hawks and Vandal Savage. It had some good moments for the other characters and had them using their powers and abilities more. 

[shantown]

More and more I appreciate S1 not only for the team members using their variety of skills (and having a special effects budget), but also for time travel being a central, necessary part of the show. I feel like they struggled with both those things in the most recent season.

[BaggythePanther]

On 7/13/2019 at 6:51 PM, Proteus said:

Zari resents her brother for joining the Legends. Klemmer says its like Wonder Twins powers, except you have to fight for them. There's only one totem and the siblings have animosity and bitterness between them.

I’m curious to see how much time they actually spend developing this dynamic because as far as I know, the actor who plays Behrad hasn’t been added as a regular. So I feel like he won’t be around for long.

[tv echo]

As requested by a member here, here is the LoT section from TV Guide's SDCC Special 2019 issue - starting with the "Burning Questions" page...

(Full page)

(In two parts)

Edited July 16, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

LoT's "Crazy In Love" page (in two parts)...

Edited July 16, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

LoT's "Behind the Scenes" - two full pages...

Edited July 16, 2019 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

On 7/13/2019 at 10:38 PM, lurker22 said:

Will there ever be a spoiler about Sara that doesn't have the words "Ava", "relationship" and "love interest" in them? 

I’m losing hope.  I’m mostly ok with Avalance as a pairing, although it wouldn’t have been my first choice for Sara.  What I am not ok with is how Sara increasingly doesn’t seem to have an identity or storyline on the show outside of “Avalance”.  And as for Ava calling the shots?  Yeah no.  

I’m already tired of how Sara seems to always forget her own issues/fears in order to deal with Ava’s insecurities and fears.   I’d like a little more focus on Sara in the relationship please.  I think the writers think they’re being evenhanded, but from where I’m sitting it seems like it always ends up being Sara who ends up comforting/reassuring Ava, while her own issues are forgotten.  I’m getting tired of that.

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I’m losing hope.  I’m mostly ok with Avalance as a pairing, although it wouldn’t have been my first choice for Sara.  What I am not ok with is how Sara increasingly doesn’t seem to have an identity or storyline on the show outside of “Avalance”.  And as for Ava calling the shots?  Yeah no.  

I’m already tired of how Sara seems to always forget her own issues/fears in order to deal with Ava’s insecurities and fears.   I’d like a little more focus on Sara in the relationship please.  I think the writers think they’re being evenhanded, but from where I’m sitting it seems like it always ends up being Sara who ends up comforting/reassuring Ava, while her own issues are forgotten.  I’m getting tired of that.

That's one reason why I'll never get into the Avalance relationship. Sara doesn't seem to get much of a say in it. She's always catering to Ava's needs and wants. I don't see Ava trying things Sara likes to do. Then Ava gets all mad that Sara is not like her someone that follows rule and instructions. Yet gets mad that Sara doesn't accept her. When Sara bends over backwards to make Ava happy.  It's Ava that doesn't accept Sara as she is. Sara doesn't follow rules, she follows her heart, Sara doesn't want a boring domestic life when she's a time traveling super hero. If those are things Ava wants then she should find someone else. 

What I really didn't like was the whole book club thing. Sara joined because she thought she was trying something Ava really liked. Ava even reminded her about it, but never once told her it was a fake book club and that she didn't really want to be in it. She made Sara worry and force herself to learn about the book, when she never had any intention of reading it herself.  

[Sakura12]

Article from EW. An interesting spoilers for Sara that are not about her love life and one about her love life. Sara's getting a power, from an illness so I wonder what it will be.  So it looks the TB is done. Which I'm happy about. But I don't know how I feel about Ava living on the Waverider. I hope they can make it interesting and not keep continuing the same thing they been doing with her. 

https://ew.com/comic-con/2019/07/17/legends-of-tomorrow-star-caity-lotz-reveals-sara-gets-a-superpower-in-season-5/

Quote

At this point, Caity Lotz’s Sara Lance has died, been resurrected, been possessed by a time demon, and formed a Beebo, but she’ll tackle a brand new frontier in DC’s Legends of Tomorrow‘s fifth season: a superpower.

“Sara will get a magical illness, which will turn into a superpower,” says Lotz, who appears on the cover of this month’s Entertainment Weekly. “She’ll learn how to make it a superhero power, which won’t necessarily be a good thing. It’s going to come with its challenges for sure.”

Up until now, Sara, who trained with the League of Assassins, has mostly been known for her martial arts prowess, so Lotz is ecstatic about this latest twist. “I’m just really excited about having a superpower. I’m on a superhero show, and then all my friends are like, ‘What’s your power?’ I’m like, ‘I’m really good at martial arts.’ They’re like, ‘That’s not a power.’ ‘Dammit, you’re right. It’s not a power.’ So finally I get a power,” she says. “It’s something where it’s kind of an illness and she’s going to learn how to turn it into something positive, which I think is really cool — taking a setback, something that’s difficult and challenging, and being able to kind of create alchemy with that and turn it into a positive. I think the negative part of the power [will affect] her personal life [more].”

For Lotz, change has been one of the constants of playing Sara because the character has evolved significantly from when she was first introduced in Arrow season 2 as, essentially, the female version of the forever brooding Oliver Queen (Stephen Amell). “I thought I was bringing over the exact same character [from Arrow to Legends]. I was like, ‘Sara would never say that.’ But then it was like, ‘Oh, this is a different version of Sara. A way more lighthearted version,'” says Lotz. “It was a difficult balance at first to have it still be her and yet fit the new show.” She continues, “It’s really fun. I like this new version of her. It’s fun to play the comedy instead of being so dark and tortured all of the time. This Sara gets to have a lot more fun.”

In somewhat related news: In season 5, Sara and her girlfriend Ava (Jes Macallan) will be living together on the Waverider, “which is going to prove to be very difficult for Sara,” says Lotz. “It’s going to be hard for her to get any personal time, but also a good opportunity for growth in the Avalance relationship.”

Ava will also experience some personal growth in season 5 because she’s currently unemployed. In the wake of the feel-good season 4 finale, the Time Bureau was shuttered, meaning the Legends are now the timeline’s last line of defense and the former director must figure out what comes next for her.

“She’s like a showrunner who enters hiatus and it’s just like, ‘Ahh, I don’t know what to do by myself,’ and that’s scary,” says executive producer Phil Klemmer, with EP Keto Shimizu adding, “Part of her character is figuring out how she fits on the Waverider. We have some great stories with her, and we’ll continue to watch her evolution. She’s a character we love so much.” Shimizu is looking forward to exploring how Ava “becomes ingrained in this family structure, not just through Sara but through her friendships with all of the other characters. She’s this great, complicated person that everyone can have their own friendship with on the ship.”

DC’s Legends of Tomorrow returns in 2020 on The CW. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Sakura12

[Proteus]

I think these Sara and Sara/Ava spoilers sound really awesome. 

[Starfish35]

Mixed feelings - I love Sara’s martial arts skills and I badly missed them this last season. But I am thankful to actually get a spoiler for her that’s not something to do with Avalance.  

Yes to getting rid of the Time Bureau.  Wonder what that means for Gary though - is he also coming onto the Waverider?  I’m not as ok with that idea as I might have been before his actions in the last part of the season. 😕

As for Ava, I actually really like Ava herself outside of the Avalance relationship, and I’ve always thought some of her best moments were with characters not Sara, such as Nate and Constantine.  So yes, more of her having friendships with the other characters please.

I do wonder though how this fits in with the thing about Ava calling the shots, though.  If she’s going to live on the ship and be part of the team, she’s going to have to be able to take orders from Captain Lance and that might not be so easy for her (*firmly represses tiny fear that Ava might take over as Captain if Sara develops an illness*).

Edited July 17, 2019 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

I'm interested in what kind of power Sara's going to get. With the magical illness thing I hope it's something stupid where she has to sneeze on people or something. 

With Avalance I just don't want them to do a repeat of Ava being insecure and Sara bending herself in a pretzel to make Ava feel worthy. I want to see Sara's issues in the relationship dealt with too. When Ava gets in one of her you don't take my side or she thinks Sara doesn't accept her, I want Sara to say. "I'm beginning to think that's it's you that doesn't accept me as I am" or "why don't you just trust me". Or anything that shows that Sara has thoughts and feelings and is part of the relationship too. 

[Proteus]

I now wonder if the Ava calling the shots thing is because Sara is ill so she gives Ava leadership for now.

I'm really thrilled with all of this news for Sara/Ava. Both of their plots for the season sound good for them as characters and a couple IMO.

Im so glad about no more TB. The show could have done so much for it but instead we got the mess that was season 4.

[Starfish35]

14 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I now wonder if the Ava calling the shots thing is because Sara is ill so she gives Ava leadership for now.

I would only be ok with that if it was an extremely temporary situation leading to Ava having a new appreciation of Sara’s leadership skills.  As a permanent or semi-permanent situation, no way. ☹️

[Proteus]

4 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I would only be ok with that if it was an extremely temporary situation leading to Ava having a new appreciation of Sara’s leadership skills.  As a permanent or semi-permanent situation, no way. ☹️

There's no way IMO they'll have Sara replaced as leader for good. So I really think at most it'll be a season long storyline.

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

I would only be ok with that if it was an extremely temporary situation leading to Ava having a new appreciation of Sara’s leadership skills.  As a permanent or semi-permanent situation, no way. ☹️

I would only be okay with it if Ava realizes that it's not easy to be the leader of that many different personalities and that Sara's unique leadership skills were what keep the Legends in line. That Sara inspires people to follow her because she doesn't try to change who they are. With Ava realizing that she can't change Sara to be like her if she wants to continue their relationship. 

[Starfish35]

5 minutes ago, Proteus said:

So I really think at most it'll be a season long storyline.

Oh I would not be ok at all with it being season-long.  Two-three episodes at most would be all I would want to see of that. 

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Oh I would not be ok at all with it being season-long.  Two-three episodes at most would be all I would want to see of that. 

Same, I watch this show for Sara, not Ava. I'd take 1 or 2 episodes with Ava leading and failing until Sara turns her illness into superpowers and Ava hands back the reigns. That would be the more interesting story, seeing Ava have to learn to follow Sara's lead with no rule book and no matter how crazy it is.  

[MarkHB]

Does being captain limit Sara too much, though? I saw that EW cover and it struck me that, outside of HeyWorld, we've barely seen her in her White Canary suit in a long time, and I think part of that is that she's got to be in charge instead of being the assassin she signed on as.

True Confession: I primarily watch this show for the Atom, followed by Mick at this point.

[Starfish35]

I don’t think it does.  I mean, mileage varies of course. But she had no problem kicking ass in seasons two and three even as the captain.  It wasn’t really an issue until this past season.  And she doesn’t have to wear the suit to kick ass.  A lot of my favorite fight scenes with her have not had her in the suit.  (Personally, I’m not fond of the White Canary suit, so the less we see of it the better IMO.)

[Sakura12]

The Legends don't need an assassin, they need someone that can lead them. Plus Sara doesn't want to be just the assassin anymore, that's why when she became Captain it meant something. No one the team thought of her as the monster she thought she was, they saw her as someone to follow. 

I don't care much about her wearing the costume, for me it's more about the actions. Sara stuck being Ava's sidekick limited Sara far more since she did absolutely nothing last season. No fighting, no leading, no team speeches. That's why I don't want Ava calling the shots, she did that most of last season already. I want to see Sara back being the team leader and fighting along side her team. 

[birdsflyinghigh]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

The Legends don't need an assassin, they need someone that can lead them. Plus Sara doesn't want to be just the assassin anymore, that's why when she became Captain it meant something. No one the team thought of her as the monster she thought she was, they saw her as someone to follow. 

I don't care much about her wearing the costume, for me it's more about the actions. Sara stuck being Ava's sidekick limited Sara far more since she did absolutely nothing last season. No fighting, no leading, no team speeches. That's why I don't want Ava calling the shots, she did that most of last season already. I want to see Sara back being the team leader and fighting along side her team. 

We must be watching a completely different season then. How was Sara stuck with being Ava’s sidekick? When has Ava called most of the shots?

Sara has always called the shots and Ava goes with her plan, except maybe in the summer camp episode but that was to show how vastly different each 4 of them were when it came to being counsellors. 

[Sakura12]

Sara spent almost all her time with Ava or thinking about her instead of looking after her team. Ava felt like she was the boss since Sara was now giving her team missions at the Time Bureau with Ava watching over her and second guessing her. Sara also had to explain what she was doing to Ava like she worked for her. Then we had Nate's Dad who was Ava's boss giving Ava instructions on how to handle the Legends finances, making her in charge of that which makes her Sara's boss. 

The show I watched had Sara barely interacting her with team like she did in previous seasons. If she wasn't with Ava, she was thinking about Ava and how she could make Ava happy. They even had Mick say that Sara was spending all her time with her girlfriend, meaning the writers were intentionally writing it that way. 

I can't even think of a single interesting thing Sara did last season that didn't involve Ava. 

[birdsflyinghigh]

6 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Sara spent almost all her time with Ava or thinking about her instead of looking after her team. Ava felt like she was the boss since Sara was now giving her team missions at the Time Bureau with Ava watching over her and second guessing her. Sara also had to explain what she was doing to Ava like she worked for her. Then we had Nate's Dad who was Ava's boss giving Ava instructions on how to handle the Legends finances, making her in charge of that which makes her Sara's boss. 

The show I watched had Sara barely interacting her with team like she did in previous seasons. If she wasn't with Ava, she was thinking about Ava and how she could make Ava happy. They even had Mick say that Sara was spending all her time with her girlfriend, meaning the writers were intentionally writing it that way. 

I can't even think of a single interesting thing Sara did last season that didn't involve Ava. 

But that doesn’t show that Ava’s the one calling the shots? She may give them missions sometimes but Sara’s still the one telling her team what to do and coming up with the plan. Ava being their boss was just like Rip being their boss when he was Director, but at least with Ava, Sara can actually trust her and Ava’s actually on their side and helping. And they were together before Ava got promoted so...

I mean, isn’t that how real life relationships work? Especially a petty new one? And besides, it’s not like most of the characters got to do all that much aside from Constantine and later on Ray and Nora. 

[birdsflyinghigh]

I’m 50/50 about Sara getting powers. I’ll wait to see what the power is first but Caity has said she wanted Sara to have powers and she looked really excited talking about it. 

[tv echo]

Arrowverse Reunion With Ruby Rose, Grant Gustin & More | Cover Shoot | Entertainment Weekly
Published on Jul 17, 2019, by Entertainment Weekly

-- CL: "Sara will get a magical illness, um, which will turn into a superpower. It won't necessarily be a good thing. It's gonna come with its challenges, for sure."

-- CL: "I'm just really excited about having a superpower. All my friends are, like, so what's your power? And I'm like, I'm really good at martial arts... That's not a power. Like, dammit, you're right, that's not a power. So finally I get a power."

Edited July 18, 2019 by tv echo

[lurker22]

Caity finally gets her wish with Sara having a superpower. She's been talking about it for so long, so she must be pretty excited. I'm glad she finally gets a storyline next season.

Looks like it's not a straightforward superpower, but something potentially bad that Sara has to turn into something good. Which is basically her whole life since the Gambit, where she has to turn her bad experiences into something positive. I'm cautiously optimistic that this will focus more on Sara and not be completely turned into a Sara/Ava story. And while they have Ava support her through it, I also want to see her teammates do that too.

I also agree that if Ava is calling the shots because Sara is too sick to do it, then it's at most a 1-2 episode thing, rather than anything longer. I want to see how Sara fares being a leader with superpower, not someone who works for Ava.

[Sakura12]

3 hours ago, birdsflyinghigh said:

But that doesn’t show that Ava’s the one calling the shots? She may give them missions sometimes but Sara’s still the one telling her team what to do and coming up with the plan. Ava being their boss was just like Rip being their boss when he was Director, but at least with Ava, Sara can actually trust her and Ava’s actually on their side and helping. And they were together before Ava got promoted so...

I mean, isn’t that how real life relationships work? Especially a petty new one? And besides, it’s not like most of the characters got to do all that much aside from Constantine and later on Ray and Nora. 

So it's a repeat of what they already did with Rip. It would be more interesting for strict rule follower Ava to have to follow Sara's anything goes lead. We've seen Sara follow the lead of others many times. How would Ava handle Sara calling the shots? Plus its Sara's ship she should be calling the shots, Ava's the guest. So I really hope it only lasts an ep or 2. 

[Proteus]

17 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

Caity finally gets her wish with Sara having a superpower. She's been talking about it for so long, so she must be pretty excited. I'm glad she finally gets a storyline next season.

Looks like it's not a straightforward superpower, but something potentially bad that Sara has to turn into something good. Which is basically her whole life since the Gambit, where she has to turn her bad experiences into something positive. I'm cautiously optimistic that this will focus more on Sara and not be completely turned into a Sara/Ava story. And while they have Ava support her through it, I also want to see her teammates do that too.

I also agree that if Ava is calling the shots because Sara is too sick to do it, then it's at most a 1-2 episode thing, rather than anything longer. I want to see how Sara fares being a leader with superpower, not someone who works for Ava.

The reason why I can't see it being for an episode or two is because from the mag preview it sounds like this will be Sara & Avas storyline for next season. Not a one episode plot line to be quickly moved on from. Ava taking charge wouldn't be worth mentioning if it was a one episode plot.

I know Ava isn't well liked here but I think it could be interesting for both Sara & Ava to have Ava take charge of the Waverider. Klemmer said they want to mix things up for them & this sounds like an interesting way to do it IMO.

Im glad Caity is finally getting her wish for Sara getting a power, and I'm looking forward to seeing how she & Ava deal with it.

[statsgirl]

2 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I know Ava isn't well liked here but I think it could be interesting for both Sara & Ava to have Ava take charge of the Waverider. Klemmer said they want to mix things up for them & this sounds like an interesting way to do it IMO.

It will be interesting for Ava.

The problem for me in the Sara/Ava storyline is that it's a zero sum game. Every advance that Ava gets is at the cost of Sara.  I think Sara is possibly the strongest female fighting character in the Arrowverse when she's away from Ava. She's strong, decisive and she knows how to rally very disparate characters into a team. But get her near Ava and she's constantly making compromises and trying to make Ava feel better about something. The conflicted former assasin who appeared on Arrow season 2 and the acknowledged captain of the Waverider turns into someone who is always trying to do what her girlfriend wants to make her happy.

[Proteus]

I feel it'll be interesting for both characters. Especially since Sara will be dealing with her magical illness gives her powers story.

[Sakura12]

How is that a new storyline for Sara? We've already seen her have to take orders from others, with Rip and with Ava and Hank last season. That's a storyline for Ava and a reused story for Sara. 

Sara having powers shouldn't take away her leadership status. She earned that. Whereas Ava was programmed by Rip to be a leader. She should be learning how to do other things if she wants to separate herself from the other Ava clones.  Ava's storyline should be her dealing with being a clone, because that's her issue not Sara's. Sara dies all time and comes back, why would she care about someone being a clone.  As I said many times it would be more interesting to see Ava have to follow Sara's crazy orders., that goes against everything she knows. Seeing Ava just be the same Ava we've seen for the past 2 years is boring. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Sakura12

[Sakura12]

47 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It will be interesting for Ava.

The problem for me in the Sara/Ava storyline is that it's a zero sum game. Every advance that Ava gets is at the cost of Sara.  I think Sara is possibly the strongest female fighting character in the Arrowverse when she's away from Ava. She's strong, decisive and she knows how to rally very disparate characters into a team. But get her near Ava and she's constantly making compromises and trying to make Ava feel better about something. The conflicted former assasin who appeared on Arrow season 2 and the acknowledged captain of the Waverider turns into someone who is always trying to do what her girlfriend wants to make her happy.

We even saw the difference when Sara showed up on Arrow for an episode. That was the confident skilled fighter and leader that I love. She was non-existent on Legends last season. They couldn't even be bothered to give her awesome fight scene.  

I going to try to hold on to some hope because the writers usually hype a storyline before the season starts making it seem like a season long thing when it only lasts for the first episode or 2. I hope Ava being in the leader on Sara's ship is that. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Sakura12

[Proteus]

14 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

How is that a new storyline for Sara? We've already seen her have to take orders from others, with Rip and with Ava and Hank last season. That's a storyline for Ava and a reused story for Sara. 

Sara having powers shouldn't take away her leadership status. She earned that. Whereas Ava was programmed by Rip to be a leader. She should be learning how to do other things if she wants to separate herself from the other Ava clones. As I said many times it would be more interesting to see Ava have to follow Sara's crazy orders., that goes against everything she knows. Seeing Ava just be the same Ava we've seen for the past 2 years is boring. 

But the same can be said about Ava. We've only ever seen her take orders. From Rip & the director that Grodd killed in season 3 and then last season with Hank.

[Sakura12]

36 minutes ago, Proteus said:

But the same can be said about Ava. We've only ever seen her take orders. From Rip & the director that Grodd killed in season 3 and then last season with Hank.

She was literally created to be the boss. Wouldn't a new storyline for her be, to try something different? I would find it more interesting to have Ava not be the boss and not know what to do with herself. That's all she knew, so she would have to figure out things she likes to do and wasn't programmed in her. It would be fun to see her hang out and do things that each of the Legends likes to see if she likes it too.  She could try experimenting and inventing with Ray in his lab, go to a punk rock concert with Charlie, a strip club with Mick or maybe try her hand at writing a romance book. She could go to a Renaissance fair with Nate or RomantiCon with Mona. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

I know Ava isn't well liked here but I think it could be interesting for both Sara & Ava to have Ava take charge of the Waverider. Klemmer said they want to mix things up for them & this sounds like an interesting way to do it IMO.

Not for me, thanks.  And I like Ava just fine, personally.  It’s “Avalance” I’m not fond of.  I’m tired of “interesting” storylines for Ava coming at Sara’s expense (@statsgirl said it better than I could).  And I will not be pleased if the writers demote Sara in favor of Ava, no matter how supposedly good this powers storyline is for her.  I’ve mostly made my peace with “Avalance”, seeing as how the writers seem determined to go through with it, even though I haven’t been thrilled with a lot of how it’s been handled.  But that might be my breaking point.  Don’t you dare take my Captain Lance away, show!  😂

[darkestboy]

On 7/14/2019 at 12:51 AM, Proteus said:

I was able to get the new SDCC preview issue. Season 5 scoop:

Klemmer says if Ray is really courting Nora, you have to bring back Damien who is the literal dad from Hell.

The show will get back to being more about time travel. Expect monstrous humans like Genghis Khan, Calligula, John Wayne Gacy, and Charles Manson.

Zari resents her brother for joining the Legends. Klemmer says its like Wonder Twins powers, except you have to fight for them. There's only one totem and the siblings have animosity and bitterness between them.

Sara & Ava can make their relationship work as long as Sara can handle Ava calling the shots. Klemmer says their looking to mix things up for them, not mess things up for them.

A big part of next season will tie the shows mythology to some of Charlie's back story.

Klemmer hopes to do a Constantine origin story showing how he got involved in magic.

I'm genuinely surprised that S4 didn't sneak in a Damien appearance but as long as they don't resurrect him, I'm fine for a brief appearance of him again.

All of these people are fascinating subjects for the show to tackle. I hope they're given individual episodes instead of all merged into one.

Will Behrad be around for most of the season or will he be an early or mid-series casualty as Zari finds her place in the team again?

Yeah, not really that bothered about Avalance. Sara's "superpower" sounds more interesting than their relationship.

More Charlie, this is a very good thing. I want to know more about her.

Given that some of the big Constantine episodes were my favourite last season, this also works for me.