Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Sakura12]

It's still hilarious to me that still no one gives a shit about Ray/The ATOM. People are speculating about the new characters, and even the media is only asking about Caity's role and why only one half of Firestorm. That's why the CW didn't pick up the ATOM show. 

[SleepDeprived]

So, I guess the TCA panel of Flash/Arrow, with "Heroes and Villains" as its tagline, was the EPs, the CW, and DC testing the waters/interest for the spinoff then? Almost all the people invited to that event, who is not a regular on the other two shows (save for Robbie and Matt Nable) are now going to be part of this superhero team-up show. Huh. I guess adding women and POC characters on this spinoff just might be the EPs' response to the feedback from TCA.

[Starfish35]

I guess I just don't see why Cold and Heatwave would be regulars, unless we're talking about a Spike reluctantly teaming up with Scooby gang type scenario. Otherwise I think they'd get old quick.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I've been wondering if Cold and Heatwave are gonna be on the hero team, because as villains they don't really work longterm.

Maybe this is something like they either go to jail, or they work with the heroes kind of deal.

 

Edit: their original plan for a team spinoff was Suicide Squad, but that got nixed by the movie, so having a team of heroes and villains would give them some of that too. Berlanti compared the spinoff to Magnificent Seven, and Ocean's 11... those weren't teams of bonafide heroes, those were morally grey folk working together because a team was needed to save a village/rob a casino.

Edited March 17, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Morrigan2575]

So, I guess the TCA panel of Flash/Arrow, with "Heroes and Villains" as its tagline, was the EPs, the CW, and DC testing the waters/interest for the spinoff then? Almost all the people invited to that event, who is not a regular on the other two shows (save for Robbie and Matt Nable) are now going to be part of this superhero team-up show. Huh. I guess adding women and POC characters on this spinoff just might be the EPs' response to the feedback from TCA.

I mentioned that here awhile ago, thinking that Robbie would eventually join the spin-off, meant that ATOM, Firestorm, Captain Cold and Heatwave were all in attendance.  The CL/Sara announcement made me wonder if KC was also there as a potential spin-off move/presentation that didn't work.  Obviously it's possible the KC/CL part is totally unrelated but I certainly think there's a very good possibility that the Heroes and Villains TCA panel was a bid by DC/WB/Berlanti to get Media attention and prove to the CW that the spin-off is viable.

[manbearpig]

I don't see much of these spin-off characters as series regular material, with the exception of Sara who's currently dead. Captain Cold and Heatwave are fun together, but I don't see how they're going to work in a series regular capacity. Just keep them on The Flash for a few episodes a year. I don't know, I feel like the more I hear about this show the messier it seems. Much like reading Arrow spoilers, actually.

[calliope1975]

I don't see much of these spin-off characters as series regular material, with the exception of Sara who's currently dead. Captain Cold and Heatwave are fun together, but I don't see how they're going to work in a series regular capacity. Just keep them on The Flash for a few episodes a year. I don't know, I feel like the more I hear about this show the messier it seems. Much like reading Arrow spoilers, actually.

 

I agree. The more that's announced, the worse it's sounding. I guess I'm going to need to find out more about the basic premise of the show. Where are they and what are they doing? This mix of characters just sounds like guest stars they really liked and want to keep around which is not the best way to structure a new show.

[SleepDeprived]

I mentioned that here awhile ago, thinking that Robbie would eventually join the spin-off, meant that ATOM, Firestorm, Captain Cold and Heatwave were all in attendance.  The CL/Sara announcement made me wonder if KC was also there as a potential spin-off move/presentation that didn't work.  Obviously it's possible the KC/CL part is totally unrelated but I certainly think there's a very good possibility that the Heroes and Villains TCA panel was a bid by DC/WB/Berlanti to get Media attention and prove to the CW that the spin-off is viable.

 

I would find it really hilarious if they, suddenly, added Matt Nable to the regular cast for this spinoff, too. I mean, dude was at TCA, too, even though I think he barely got to speak during the panel. But that would be, like, the biggest WTF announcement ever.

 

Or, they could put in Katrina Law to rep the al Ghuls, instead, to make the cast less white male-centric.

[Sakura12]

It looks like they are making a Heroes and Villains show. We'll get to see a team up of heroes (ATOM, new characters and whoever CL is playing with Stein as their mentor) and a team up of villains (Captain Cold, Heatwave and new leader villain).

 

That would be different than Arrow and Flash. 

[Morrigan2575]

I would find it really hilarious if they, suddenly, added Matt Nable to the regular cast for this spinoff, too. I mean, dude was at TCA, too, even though I think he barely got to speak during the panel. But that would be, like, the biggest WTF announcement ever.

 

Or, they could put in Katrina Law to rep the al Ghuls, instead, to make the cast less white male-centric.

At this point I'm totally waiting for Katrina Law to be added to the spin-off.  With the exception of Ray/ATOM (although that could just be perception) it looks like they're pulling in popular characters from each show.  I think Garber is there to give them street cred and good acting like Jesse/Tom and Paul/Sussana are/were

[MarkHB]

I wonder if the CL part was originally going to be Peyton List's Golden Glider (who is Captain Cold's little sister for those who don't watch The Flash or read the comics), but they switched to resurrecting Sara when Peyton signed for her Disney spinoff.

 

Re the "big bad" that was teased, I can think of some major JLA villains they could play with: Doctor Destiny and Kanjar-Ro for starters.  Or they could just go balls-to-the-wall silly and bring in Starro.

[Starfish35]

I'm still very much interested in the show right now, though I'll admit a lot of that has to do with Sara. And I don't hate Ray like a lot of people do. It's just that I don't get the love for Captain Cold & Heatwave, and I'd rather see them be adding more female characters than more male characters. Right now we're talking, what, six male regulars to only two female regulars?

[FurryFury]

Which is the same ratio The Flash has, actually.

[Sakura12]

I wonder if the CL part was originally going to be Peyton List's Golden Glider (who is Captain Cold's little sister for those who don't watch The Flash or read the comics), but they switched to resurrecting Sara when Peyton signed for her Disney spinoff.

 

Re the "big bad" that was teased, I can think of some major JLA villains they could play with: Doctor Destiny and Kanjar-Ro for starters.  Or they could just go balls-to-the-wall silly and bring in Starro.

 

Different Petyon List. The Peyton List on the Flash is a different actress that has never been on Disney. She's been on Madmen and the Tomorrow People. 

[Lord Kira]

We got Captain Cold and Heat Wave, now we need the CW to go sign the Clock King. Prison Break reunion!

 

I'm excited for this show and the news about the show so far has only increased it. Except for the news that Ray is in it. All of these other characters have a feel of fun about them (even Sara, despite her backstory), then there's Ray who is so bland. Why put him in this show at all? I don't think he has many fans on Arrow. Aren't popular characters supposed to spin-off instead of the unpopular ones?

[tv echo]

Why Ray Palmer?  I think the EPs have invested too much time and money in this character to let him go - time spent eating up episodes of Arrow (to set up Ray's back story), and money spent on the Atom suit and special effects.  Plus, they probably think that his lack of popularity is solely due to his serving as an obstacle to Oliver & Felicity and that, once he's removed as an obstacle and off on his own show, he will be loved by all fans.  From interviews, it sounds like the EPs view BR/Ray as charming, charismatic and non-stalkerish.

Edited March 17, 2015 by tv echo

[MarkHB]

Different Petyon List. The Peyton List on the Flash is a different actress that has never been on Disney. She's been on Madmen and the Tomorrow People. 

 

Duh, OK, thanks.  I thought SAG-AFTRA didn't allow actors who were active at the same time to share a stage name! 

[Sakura12]

On IMDB they are listed as Peyton List (I) the older one and the one that's going be on Flash and Peyton List (II) the 16 year old one.

[kismet]

Why Ray Palmer?  I think the EPs have invested too much time and money in this character to let him go - time spent eating up episodes of Arrow (to set up Ray's back story), and money spent on the Atom suit and special effects.  Plus, they probably think that his lack of popularity is solely due to his serving as an obstacle to Oliver & Felicity and that, once he's removed as an obstacle and off on his own show, he will be loved by all fans.  From interviews, it sounds like the EPs view BR/Ray as charming, charismatic and non-stalkerish.

A lot of how the EPs view Ray was delusional from the beginning. Some of his character choices were questionable before they ever officially made him a love interest. Its been discussed on other threads, so I wont go into the details here, but they should have spent more time on his actual character & backstory. They spent a lot of time on Sebastian Blood's character development & plot which is why I was invested in him (despite initially only caring about the actor) by the time his big office scene came in the end of s2. Can't say I feel the same for RP. I was excited when they announced his involvement because I thought he has potential, but then it was all poorly written cliche stuff. I get they were gunning for a spin-off but I do find the amount of time & $$ spent on his suit to be questionable without the guarantee of a spin-off.

 

I keep wondering if they will try to make ATOM interesting by making his character darker in the back of the season. He might do bad things or perhaps he will become villainous or at least more morally grey. Both Stein & SL have had morally grey moments, so maybe this will be the redemption or morally grey hero league? Some are there for redemption, other profits, some are just tied up because they have no other options. It would make help explain how known villains would collaborate with this new league, unless of course they plan on having a H v. V show with some of the cast against each other & not collaborating.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, it would make sense, considering that Sara also is a pretty grey character.

 

Personally, I'm a bit meh on Heatwave - I was OK with Cold, he was better developed and I know the actor better, but two of them? Definitely not main cast material. A puzzling choice.

[Morrigan2575]

Wow, they really did base some of this on fan favorites

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/flash-arrow-spinoff-villain-dc-comic-character-1201453825/

“In picking them, it was very much about picking, ‘who are some of the most popular characters we’ve created?’ and also, tonally, who went with who? How disparate could we make it?” Berlanti explained. “And we’re also introducing these three new characters that we’re casting right now… I think it’s really important that we have another female hero on the show, and this one is really exciting. I can’t wait for people to find out — we just have to cast it right, as always. And then you want that Rat Pack-y kind of vibe of all this crew hanging out, as disparate and as different as they are.”

Edited March 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

It would be interesting to see how that random group of people comes together. 

[SleepDeprived]

 

I think it’s really important that we have another female hero on the show, and this one is really exciting.

 

Oh, so Sara will be a hero and not a villain. Nice. Although I think I would've liked seeing Caity be somewhat of a villain, or a confused hero, initially, before settling in this "disparate, Rat-pack-y" crew.

 

I'm really curious who the top villain will be. I feel like almost every big villain has had a live-action counterpart already. Has Vandal Savage been done yet?

[Sakura12]

It's important to have one more female character, while also adding 10 more male characters to the 6 already added.

[Proteus]

Wow, they really did base some of this on fan favoriteshttp://variety.com/2015/tv/news/flash-arrow-spinoff-villain-dc-comic-character-1201453825/

That comment is somewhat confusing because other than Sara, who cast on this show so far is popular?

Edited March 17, 2015 by Proteus

[Sakura12]

I think Ray is popular to the EP's, Sara is popular to the fans and people like Victor Garber, Wentworth Miller and Dominic Purcell from other tv shows. 

[Morrigan2575]

That comment is somewhat confusing because other than Sara, who cast on this show so far is popular?

From what I've ween both Captain Cold and Heatwave are very popular in Flash fandom

[BkWurm1]

I can’t wait for people to find out — we just have to cast it right, as always.

 

Crossing fingers on the casting.  They've hit out of the ballpark sometimes (SA, GG, DR, EBR, MM, and I'm blanking on Wells and Joe's real names) but they've had their share of dudes.  Obviously one name comes screaming to mind but people are mixed about CH and DP (both whom I like) and the actress that plays Iris is not someone I hate but so far she's mostly been forgettable.  I don't need perfect.  Caity Lotz isn't perfect, neither is EBR but they bring something of themselves that is genuine and translates on screen to make me care about their characters and I would love if they gave me another character to root for rather than one to tolerate or worse yet, endure. 

[BkWurm1]

I have some real hopes for BR and Ray on the spin off.  I've seen flashes of him being very funny on Arrow but so often the humor fell flat because it was the wrong time for it in regards to everything else going on with the show, the whole problem we've had where it literally feels like I've changed the channel when Ray is there because he and his actions don't fit with the overall narrative even if he legitimately didn't know about anything. 

 

If he was light and said inappropriate things and behaved in a somewhat cocky/naïve manner and the people he's interacting with aren't in the midst of a deep personal crisis, then I think he might have a fantastic dynamic in contrast with the more serious Stein and perhaps the more pessimistic Sara.  The reason why his helicopter scene actually worked was because it was pretty much the only time Felicity wasn't operating in pain induced fog.  Take that tonal problem away and stop trying to negatively compare Oliver to him and yeah, I think he'd work.   

 

It would have been exceedingly nice if they fixed the tonal problem before we had to suffer it on Arrow but if they can learn from their mistakes, then Ray may be the surprise favorite on the new show. 

[BkWurm1]

I found this interesting.  It's an article from a few weeks back that Garber gave.  Not spoilery at this point. http://www.eonline.com/news/626199/what-does-victor-garber-really-think-of-robbie-amell-s-impression-of-him-on-the-flash

Garber reveals that it was actually knowing that [Robbie] Amell would be playing his "other half" that convinced him to take on the role of Dr. Stein in the first place.

"That was part of the attraction for me," Garber says. "We have a great time together and it's part of the joy of doing it."

 

Makes me really wonder if RA will be back at some point no matter what they are saying right now.  I suppose they might have just made Garber a good offer or maybe he looked at the stuff that Tom Cavanagh got to do and said sign me up.  I have to remind myself that he's no stranger to genre TV.  Alias may have been it's own mythology but it might as well have been ripped from a comic book.    

[Carrie Ann]

I have some real hopes for BR and Ray on the spin off.  I've seen flashes of him being very funny on Arrow but so often the humor fell flat because it was the wrong time for it in regards to everything else going on with the show, the whole problem we've had where it literally feels like I've changed the channel when Ray is there because he and his actions don't fit with the overall narrative even if he legitimately didn't know about anything. 

 

If he was light and said inappropriate things and behaved in a somewhat cocky/naïve manner and the people he's interacting with aren't in the midst of a deep personal crisis, then I think he might have a fantastic dynamic in contrast with the more serious Stein and perhaps the more pessimistic Sara.  The reason why his helicopter scene actually worked was because it was pretty much the only time Felicity wasn't operating in pain induced fog.  Take that tonal problem away and stop trying to negatively compare Oliver to him and yeah, I think he'd work.   

 

It would have been exceedingly nice if they fixed the tonal problem before we had to suffer it on Arrow but if they can learn from their mistakes, then Ray may be the surprise favorite on the new show. 

 

I really agree with this. I wouldn't go as far as saying that Ray is something I'm excited about on the spinoff yet, because I have conditions in order for that to be true. But assuming they do drop the Gary Stu thing, and introduce more flaws (I mean flaws that the text acknowledges, not just the ones the viewers see), I would believe that Ray could be an interesting, fun character when removed from Arrow. 

 

It hasn't been hard for me to separate BR's performance from my problems with Ray, which isn't always the case when a character drives me nuts. Yeah, he had the crazy eyes in the beginning, and he may have been a little OTT, but it takes a little time to settle into a role, and I think he's done that really well. I know he has detractors, but I personally don't think BR is the problem with the character, and I think if the writing improved, he would make the most of it. I find BR himself really charming, and he's been allowed a few moments of depth on Arrow that make me believe he can handle that stuff too. Also, they should let him work that stubbly look on the spinoff, because...yes.

[FurryFury]

I also haven't seen Ray because I don't watch Arrow anymore, but from what I gather, he's just another victim of Romantic False Lead trope - a blandly perfect love interest that's needed to keep two characters away from each other until the one involved with the False Lead realizes they don't fit together. I kinda hate this trope, but it's everywhere on TV, even on shows I consider really good (I don't consider Arrow really good - it could have become such in s2, but it squandered all its potential). Still, I suspect that if you take this character away from the love triangle and try to actually build him up, he could work all right. So I'm not really concerned with Ray. Now, way too many guys and such throw-away and shallow characters as Captain Cold and Heatwave in the main cast seems more of a problem to me, to be honest. They are OK on Flash, but I just can't imagine how they could be turned into something substantial. One of them, maybe, but both? There are villains on both Flash (Pied Piper, hell, even Peekaboo) and Arrow (Deadshot, Huntress) who could fit a "ragtag bunch" scenario better than those two.

[MarkHB]

I was trying to figure out what they're liable to call this show.  It certainly isn't the JL(A), as that's taken by movies and they're missing all the real heavy-hitters.  It won't be the (Teen) Titans either, and it definitely isn't the Legion or the Suicide Squad.  And then it dawned on me, a name that's from DC canon, has been reused a couple of times with different memberships, and is actually kind of perfect for this group:

 

The Outsiders.

[Artsda]

Love the addition of Dominic! Prison Break reunion, they work so great together. This cast is really good.

[tarotx]

The Outsiders are interesting by just a quick look there was a member named Atomic Knight that Fits The Arrow's Atom...

[Morrigan2575]

I was trying to figure out what they're liable to call this show.  It certainly isn't the JL(A), as that's taken by movies and they're missing all the real heavy-hitters.  It won't be the (Teen) Titans either, and it definitely isn't the Legion or the Suicide Squad.  And then it dawned on me, a name that's from DC canon, has been reused a couple of times with different memberships, and is actually kind of perfect for this group:

 

The Outsiders.

Jeff Lemire did the Outsiders in his Green Arrow run, so i'm used to that design (Arrow, Fist, Axe, Sword, Spear, Shield and Mask Clans) as a secret society.  I know that's just the new version and there are older ones that might work but since it's the one I'm most familiar with I want to say no these guys can't be The Outsiders...LOL

Edited March 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

The Outsiders immediately makes me think of Ponyboy and Sodapop. 

 

Anyways, I could see that being the title since it's the ragtag group of heroes that the EP's are talking about. Where they are more ratpack and Ocean's 11 then the Justice League. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by Sakura12

[Delphi]

That actually could work very easily, with Sara playing Shado or Cassandra Cain's role. Not to white wash or anything, however Cassie runs a pretty similar role to Sara, bred to kill, runs away from it becomes a hero again.

[calliope1975]

Jeff Lemire did the Outsiders in his Green Arrow run, so i'm used to that design (Arrow, Fist, Axe, Sword, Spear, Shield and Mask Clans) as a secret society.  I know that's just the new version and there are older ones that might work but since it's the one I'm most familiar with I want to say no these guys can't be The Outsiders...LOL

 

I read the line up with Nighwing, Arsenal, Metamorpho, etc., and I loved it so it hurts my heart that this might be called The Outsiders...even if it might fit. But if it means they could bring in Jade, I'd be okay with that.

[KirkB]

And they were founded by Batman in the comics, which would mean Arrow is once again following in his footsteps. Good call.

[BkWurm1]

I wish I remembered what it specifically was but there was something at Paley Fest - I think one of the interviews - that actually led me to believe The Outsiders was the name they were kicking around.   

[statsgirl]

A billionaire entrepreneur with a robot suit who sits in on the mayor's meetings doesn't really fit the idea of an outsider though.

[Sakura12]

From the wiki article it says "The intention of this new team was to act as 'hunters', actively searching for superhuman criminals currently on the loose, rather than waiting for them to act and then responding as other super-vigilante groups often do."

 

That's actually the premise I had in mind when they announced the show. 

[dtissagirl]

From the wiki article it says "The intention of this new team was to act as 'hunters', actively searching for superhuman criminals currently on the loose, rather than waiting for them to act and then responding as other super-vigilante groups often do."

 

That's actually the premise I had in mind when they announced the show. 

 

A team that goes where the potential threat is each week could work for me, as long as they keep the tone more Leverage, and less Criminal Minds with superpowers.

[BkWurm1]

A team that goes where the potential threat is each week could work for me, as long as they keep the tone more Leverage, and less Criminal Minds with superpowers.

Agreed.  I never have understood why they keep the only person apparently capable of levity stuck back in HQ.  Everyone acts so dour and looks so sour on that show. 

 

If Flash is the bright and shiny universe and Arrow is the dark and gritty world, then Team Justice should be a mix of the two. 

[tv echo]

There's already a new WGN America show called Outsiders (formerly called Titans), which is an upcoming TV drama about an Appalachian family:  

http://www.post-gazette.com/ae/tv-radio/2015/01/30/New-WFN-America-series-Outsiders-to-film-in-Western-Pennsylvania/stories/201501300240

http://deadline.com/2014/11/thomas-m-wright-cast-outsiders-wgn-america-1201281929/
http://deadline.com/2015/02/gillian-alexy-star-outsiders-simon-merrells-dominion-1201375147/

 

So I doubt this spin-off is going to be called The Outsiders.  Too confusing.

Edited March 18, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

From the wiki article it says "The intention of this new team was to act as 'hunters', actively searching for superhuman criminals currently on the loose, rather than waiting for them to act and then responding as other super-vigilante groups often do."

 

That's actually the premise I had in mind when they announced the show. 

Wiki for the spin-off?  I never read that before, did they site a source?

[Sakura12]

Wiki for the spin-off?  I never read that before, did they site a source?

 

It's from the wiki article MarkHB posted. That's what it said the premise of the Outsiders from the comics was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsiders_%28comics%29

Edited March 18, 2015 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

oh OK.  The premise of the comics.  Gotcha.

[tv echo]

From the EOnline article (posted in the News & Media thread):

Marc Guggenheim: "I will say the Atom costume is such a triumph. It's not only my favorite…it's never been done on television before, that kind of television. The costume has real practical lights, real practical motors…It's a triumph on engineering."

 

Another reason why Ray is in the spinoff.

Edited March 18, 2015 by tv echo