S03.E05: Salang Pass

[dr pepper]

Remember they've already done an episode in which Phillip and Paige are shopping and encounter a grown man with a teenage girlfriend who then gets pretty skeevy towards Paige. Later, Phillip tracks the man down to frighten him.

[sistermagpie]

If I was Philip, I think I could fool Kimmie with a lie like "impotence since PTSD from Nam-- be patient, I'll get there.  We can do other things..."  I mean, how many nights does he need free reign over the dude's study?  He's had it once.  Plant the bug, back off.  No?

 

 

Gabriel did say something about "longterm" didn't he? I've been assuming that this is the reason it's important because as you say, why would he have to do anything if it was just a case of planting one bug? Hell, he could probably just break in while everyone was out, couldn't he? If he only needs to be in one more time he can find any number of reasons for it not to happen that night.

 

But I doubt Philip wants to do other things with her either. I mean, for me I'd consider it just as sleazy if not sleazier for him to think that as long as it's not PIV it's not sex. There's only so far that can go before it's over the line.

If I was Philip, I think I could fool Kimmie with a lie like "impotence since PTSD from Nam-- be patient, I'll get there.  We can do other things..."  I mean, how many nights does he need free reign over the dude's study?  He's had i

[FormerMod-a1]

Doesn't he have to go back to get the recordings after the bug is planted?  Much like he gets recordings (via Martha) from the bug at the FBI.

[gwhh]

Don't worry about rating for this show.  The rating that is considered successful for non-network TV is so different from network TV it makes no sense.  This show he doing very well on tv and is getting a lot of positive reviews.  Nothing to worry about her!

[sistermagpie]

Doesn't he have to go back to get the recordings after the bug is planted? Much like he gets recordings (via Martha) from the bug at the FBI.

Martha keeps the recorder in her purse, right? The bug stays with Gaad in the pen. With the clock it transmitted to the car they had waiting. With the other CIA guy they just had the thing that transmitted to them in their car.

I don't know how this one's supposed to work but he's putting one in his briefcase, I thought, which the guy's supposed to take to work with him. So it doesn't seem like he'd have to keep the tape part in the house.

[FormerMod-a1]

I'm assuming the bug being in the briefcase is so it can record conversations with other CIA Afghan agents.  So then it's not like they can just camp outside or nearby and listen in.  It would be recording and Philip will have to get the recordings periodically, just like the bug in the FBI pen.

[sistermagpie]

I'm assuming the bug being in the briefcase is so it can record conversations with other CIA Afghan agents.  So then it's not like they can just camp outside or nearby and listen in.  It would be recording and Philip will have to get the recordings periodically, just like the bug in the FBI pen.

 

 

That makes sense. If the guy's moving around they wouldn't be able to set a place for the transmitter, I guess. Seems like he'd waste a lot of time at Kimmie's house in that case, though, since wouldn't there be plenty of times the father would have his jacket or briefcase with him when he was out of the house or on a trip somewhere?

[Loandbehold]

 

That makes sense. If the guy's moving around they wouldn't be able to set a place for the transmitter, I guess. Seems like he'd waste a lot of time at Kimmie's house in that case, though, since wouldn't there be plenty of times the father would have his jacket or briefcase with him when he was out of the house or on a trip somewhere?

All Philip would have to do is ask Kimmie if Daddy is going to be home that evening. If she says he's staying in, Philop doesn't go. If he's only out for the evening, Philip comes over and gets the tapes. If he's away on a trip, he might have to go over for a few hours, but he can make an excuse to leave and not have to come back until he knows Dad's back in D.C. (Maryland?)

[lucindabelle]

I surprise myself by feeling that if Philip sleeps with Kimmie, this show is over for me. I just can't.

 

I know the show does a lot of research, but there's a difference between research and having actually lived it.

For example, I love "Mad Men." the show's creator though was the age of youngest Draper during the '60s. he doesn't remember "Bay of Pigs." I asked my mom, who does, if people holed up, went to see loved ones, etc. the way they did on the show.

 

She just laughed.

 

hindsight is 20/20.

 

Look, 30 years from now, people will be writing scripts abotu 9/11 and in those scripts people will talk of nothing else for days, and nobody will think of work. But that isn't what happened. I was stranded in NJ, but the playwrights I was working with all called to see who was being cast in their readings the following month, and I did as much as I could on the computer.

 

Yes, it had an impact. But its full impact came later, and the world did not grind to a halt. I get annoyed at the retrofitting in Downton Abbey too. For the most part "The Americans" is right, but they do fudge on some details.

[PinkRibbons]

But how much more valuable is Kimmie if she's so besotted with "Jim" that her flips her? First she gets to find out her father has been lying to her about his job all this time (on top of practically abandoning her), and then you add the idea of having an older man in love with her and the idea that, as a spy for the KGB, she's important and has a mission to do, instead of being a constantly ignored child. I'm seeing a lot of potential Annelise and/or Jared in her

 

Jim only has so much time in that house; he had to run like a teenager last time. But Kimmie lives there all the time, often completely alone. She could keep recordings in her bedroom, plant bugs anywhere, hell, she could even possibly get daddy to take her to work and put a bug there, even if it is supposedly the "department of Agriculture". She has access to his papers and his home office, all she needs is a camera to take photos for The Cause. Who on earth is going to suspect the angel-faced fifteen-year-old daughter of spying on her father for the KGB? Even if she gets caught snooping, well, teenagers snoop on their mysterious parents. Look at Paige.

 

It's not that the whole idea of Philip seducing her into the job isn't gross in every way, but I can see how the KGB would consider her an incredible asset.

[sistermagpie]

It's not that the whole idea of Philip seducing her into the job isn't gross in every way, but I can see how the KGB would consider her an incredible asset.

 

 

Yeah, that's the thing--I have no problem seeing why the KGB sees this as a potential goldmine and why the key to that goldmine is a standard honeytrap, age be damned. We know they have no qualms about manipulating teenagers, sexually or otherwise. 

 

At the same time, that's the very reason I suspect (or at least hope) it won't go that way, because while it's gross, it's also kind of predictable, at least until down the road when Kimmie becomes another potential timebomb like Martha and Anneleise and Viola. I mean, where does the story go if he sleeps with her? Just Philip feeling even more disgusted with himself and even more helpless to stop Paige being exploited? That's not much of a change at this point. 

 

The fact that everyone on the show seems to only see two possible outcomes here (he sleeps with her or he walks away from the potential asset) makes me think a third is the way to go. Not only does it make the whole thing more surprising and hard to predict, but it plays right into Philip's wheelhouse because he's the guy who gets all compassionate about people and understands where they're coming from. It's totally IC for him to be the character who sees Kimmie differently than all the other KGB agents who are only seeing her on paper. (IC for his personality as well as just practically logical since he's the one spending time with her.) 

 

The first ep this season set up Philip having sex he himself didn't seem to much enjoy with Anneleise and Martha--they've been hitting the Philip as sexworker thing hard in preparation for this Kimmie story. Also Philip being relatively helpless against the plans of everyone else. We're nearly midway through the season at this point and I feel like he's got to start finding his footing a bit more--I feel like there's a lot of potential for the Kimmie story to help him do that. Basically, I think there's more to the story than just whether or not he damages his character by committing statutory rape. 

[Guest]

To me, the idea that the KGB would gamble their precious assets P&E on the loyalty of either American teenage girl (Kim or Paige) is ludicrous.  Even without the family massacre from last season.  

[sistermagpie]

To me, the idea that the KGB would gamble their precious assets P&E on the loyalty of either American teenage girl (Kim or Paige) is ludicrous.  Even without the family massacre from last season.

 

 

I don't think Kimmie would be getting a very high security clearance with P&E. He'd keep her thinking he's Jim the lawyer/lobbyist, or if he reveals himself as something else it wouldn't be Philip Jennings. Very few of their assets know about their primary identities. Paige would get the power to blow the whole thing up, but Kimmie wouldn't be trusted any more than their adult assets. It's a risk, but it's a risk they take with everyone. 

Edited March 3, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Guest]

But how much more valuable is Kimmie if she's so besotted with "Jim" that her flips her? First she gets to find out her father has been lying to her about his job all this time (on top of practically abandoning her), and then you add the idea of having an older man in love with her and the idea that, as a spy for the KGB, she's important and has a mission to do, instead of being a constantly ignored child. I'm seeing a lot of potential Annelise and/or Jared in her

 

Jim only has so much time in that house; he had to run like a teenager last time. But Kimmie lives there all the time, often completely alone. She could keep recordings in her bedroom, plant bugs anywhere, hell, she could even possibly get daddy to take her to work and put a bug there, even if it is supposedly the "department of Agriculture". She has access to his papers and his home office, all she needs is a camera to take photos for The Cause. Who on earth is going to suspect the angel-faced fifteen-year-old daughter of spying on her father for the KGB? Even if she gets caught snooping, well, teenagers snoop on their mysterious parents. Look at Paige.

 

It's not that the whole idea of Philip seducing her into the job isn't gross in every way, but I can see how the KGB would consider her an incredible asset.

I was balking specifically at this scenario of Kimmie as spy.  I think she'd be a lot more likely to turn "Jim" over to daddy than to willfully start working for the KGB against her father.  Maybe if she was older and already sympathetic to communism and hated her dad but she's just a lonely kid.  

 

If they plan to have her be a third long-term relationship for Phillip I think that's silly.  The Martha thing is already straining credulity.  

[Umbelina]

There is no way Kimmy would be told of the KGB.  Suitcase babe was never told, she thought she was working for Sweden.

 

Also, an asset is not really a spy.  They are just the people used by spies.  Kimmy has the potential to be valuable for a long time.  Not just for the current Afghanistan situation but for all kinds of further information.  Even knowing if her father is home, or has a "business trip" scheduled could be very valuable.  Or overhearing a conversation between her dad and coworkers, all kinds of stuff.  I can't really see the point in making Kimmy a knowing asset, certainly not yet.

 

Will they go there with the sex?  I honestly don't know, but it doesn't escape me that the actress is 21.  Not 18.  21.  It just feels significant to me.

[Bad Example]

Ditto to this.  I have a low attention span when watching TV and it took me 2 seasons of this show to realized that I can NOT be doing anything else while watching otherwise I have no idea what's going on lol 

 

You and me both.  I finally realized that when I watched this show the way I watch nearly everything else, I missed absolutely everything.  

It's not that I think this show is too smart for the masses, it's just that you just can't turn it on and zone out.

 

Oddly, I don't have any visceral reaction to the Phillip/Kimmie situation.  I'm just waiting to see how it plays out, and hope it does so in the most interesting way possible...and I don't know what that would be.

[tennisgurl]

It`s not really an easy show to watch at times. You have to really pay attention to the plots and characters, especially because most of the characters have multiple identities, complex loyalties, and lie all the damn time. Plus the subtitles and multiple bad wigs and glasses. It`s not something I can multitask during. Lucily, its pretty much always holds my attention, so I don`t really want to do other things.

 

All that, plus Philip and Elizabeth can be hard to root for as protagonists, especially Elizabeth. I don`t think she`s a sociopath. I think she loves her family, and she has been shown to care about people, like that girl from last year, or the other spy family. It`s just that she is so fanatically devoted to her cause, everything else takes a backseat. She can sacrifice people she cares about, or totally innocent people for her cause, and be basically ok with it. It can be hard to LIKE Elizabeth, but I think she`s very interesting. Most of the "anti-hero" style characters on TV are motivated by either money or power or some kind. Elizabeth is motivated by her undying loyalty to the state. It`s a different kind of anti-hero then one`s we have seen in the past. I can still have sympathy for Elizabeth and want her to win at times, but I don`t know if I like her so much as I find her fascinating. 

 

Philip, I feel like, is easier for me to root for, and have sympathy for. He does horrible things too, but he clearly feels extreme mounts of guilt about it. He seems to feel more like his spying is just what he does. He`s not a fanatic. He would never want his life for his kids. Ever. Really, what makes him so interesting is that he is usually so warm and empathetic, especially compared to Elizabeth, but he also has a lot of anger, and can be just as scary and cold as she can be. He`s also a complicated character to like, but I feel like he is easier to me to really root for.  

 

So, yeah. Not always a simple show to watch, but I am really glad I do.   

[chocolatine]

I was balking specifically at this scenario of Kimmie as spy.  I think she'd be a lot more likely to turn "Jim" over to daddy than to willfully start working for the KGB against her father.

 

 

Like Umbelina said, she wouldn't know she'd be working for the KGB and she doesn't know her father is in the CIA; she thinks he works at the Department of Agriculture or some such. "Jim" would tell her the information would be used for America. She wouldn't even know she's getting daddy in trouble.

Edited March 4, 2015 by chocolatine

[paramitch]

I liked the episode, and continue to find this season to be another strong one. I'm fascinated by almost everything Elizabeth chooses to say and do, from her chilling 'casual' killing of the poor guy under the car, to her deliberate, open-eyed kiss with Philip at the end (which was, I felt, almost a challenge to Philip to keep the moment real between them after his admission). 

 

My two cents is that I think they will move it down that path, taking it so far as for them to engage in foreplay. I'm willing to bet our little Kimmy is a virgin on top of everything else, and Philip is going to realize that is a line he just can't cross and will stop everything. When I thought she was 18 with daddy issues I didn't think the sex issue was as huge a deal and figured she had already done it. A 15-year-old with daddy issues? Talks a big game, likes to play the part, but when it comes down to it, we -- and Philip, who is already struggling with it -- are going to see a scared 15 year old

I agree that this is the likely scenario, particularly since Philip was already so fatherly and comfortable with her in this episode. I found the kitchen scene oddly touching -- it's so rare that Philip seems to enjoy anything, and here he really seemed to be having fun, in an innocent way, with Kimmy and the popcorn and ice cream, just as he might have with his own kids. I definitely felt that he was in that role for most of the evening with her.

 

Given her willingness to serve up Paige to the ugly world of espionage, I wouldn't rule out Elizabeth being willing to kill her children, if given a set of circumstances which suggested that doing so would obviously serve a critical need of the Soviet State. The context of Soviet culture really needs to be understood here. The show takes  place only 30 years removed from the death of Stalin, when it was quite common for children to be encouraged to inform on parents, leading to the parents being sent to the gulag, or even murdered by the state. That's the formative environment that created Elizabeth. Anyone in close proximity to her, who isn't as ideologically committed as she is to the Soviet State (or even if they are, if they disagree on tactics, and defy Soviet leadership), is a potential target for deadly violence. She's as frightening a major character as I've seen in dramatic television.

This is a pretty astute, if terrifying, assessment of Elizabeth. I'm not sure I agree that she'd ever kill her own kids, but I do think she'd use and/or abandon them pretty readily if required to. What I'm waiting for -- and most interested in -- is for her to be faced with (1) a line she simply cannot cross (something Philip's already been faced with), and (2) the knowledge that Gabriel is using her every bit as coldly as she is planning on using Paige.

 

When Gabriel said to Philip, "You have a conscience." it was so clear to me that he meant "Elizabeth does not and it's not such a great thing that you do. Maybe get that under control." Ugh. Gabriel frightens me -- and Frank Langella is so good! I saw him play Dracula on Broadway many years ago and have always remembered it.

 

I love Langella -- what he's doing with Gabriel is terrific because it's so natural and quiet, yet we can see how easily he manipulates and guides Philip and Elizabeth. He 'handles' them with spooky ease. There's almost a visible contempt there, though, to me -- for Philip for his 'conscience' and (I think) for Elizabeth too, for her affection for him.

And he's just a formidable actor and he can be so subtle -- I always wished I could've seen his "Dracula" onstage. When I lived in New York back in 2010 or so, I was thrilled to finally get to see him onstage (on Broadway in "A Man for All Seasons" -- I'd previously just missed "Frost/Nixon" by a few months so at least I got to see him in something).

 

It's harder to distance myself from the horror that Philip and Elizabeth do when I'm not given a reason to dislike the mark.  I'm also having a hard time with Lisa.  She's such a nice lady, and when Elizabeth's done with here, she'll probably go to death row for espionage/treason.  Her life will be ruined, and her children will be motherless. 

I feel very much the same way. Lisa seems so caring and warm, and she was such a good sponsor to Elizabeth when she was in crisis. I keep hoping Elizabeth will use her unknowingly, versus corrupting her to give away secrets outright.

 

I think they're absolutely fascinating. And there's something so  tragic about them, too, because their work as spies is destroying them slowly. I have the feeling that we're going to see Philip losing it at the end of this season. And the worst part is they're doing it for a lost, wrong cause. 

 

Philip's training broke my heart. No wonder they're so messed up.

 

I'm not sure I like this new relationship between Stan and Oleg but I loved the shot where they were on a bridge. Oleg, with black hair and dark clothes. Stan, with fair hair and light clothes. Very interesting.

Great eye for that scene between Oleg and Stan -- I liked it too, and like the wary tightrope the two men continue to walk around one another.

I also agree that Philip and Elizabeth's situation is even more tragic because of the lens through which we're viewing the show. They do not succeed. Their country and its ideology will pretty definitively crumble. The fact that we know that and they don't adds a poignant doomed quality to their efforts.

 

This was a really good episode. Philip remembering Baby Paige as all sweetness and innocence, and Elizabeth resenting her for remembering her as clumsy and clueless...

I loved that little bit of characterization and thought that scene had some beautiful writing -- that Philip thinks of Paige as being graceful and faultless, while Elizabeth remembers her as being a klutz. The subtext there spoke volumes. 

 

Philip really is the ultimate people pleaser, isn't he? Maybe that's what makes him a good spy. He has his own motives and this is all kinds of objectionable, but the fact is, he is giving Martha and now Kimmie what they want despite not wanting any of it himself.

It's interesting because I think this is a really accurate insight into Philip and also what makes him the more understandable and empathetic one. While Elizabeth seems to shed her alter-egos with ease, Philip seems to become the characters he's playing, living fully in the moment. It's actually a pretty good look at the differences between two acting techniques -- the external actors who use props and wigs in order to find the characters -- versus those internal actors who prefer to pull what they need from inside and work outward from there. 

 

PinkRibbons, I think every Soviet has their own "dismantling of Lenin statues" experience. My school had a bust of him in profile hanging on a wall. After the bust was taken down, you could still see the outline of it on the white paint of the wall, and there was no doubt about whose profile it was. The school either had no money or couldn't be bothered to put a fresh coat of paint on the wall, so I felt Lenin's "shadow" haunt me until my family left the country in 1991.

One of my favorite things about this show's forums, especially this season, is getting all of these personal insights and memories into Russian life over the past several decades. You and so many others have given me such rich and vivid portraits of what life was like there (and how that life may have shaped our characters here).

 

The final flashbacks to Philip's training were terrible but also made sense to me. A woman can have sex with a mark while feeling not an ounce of passion, faking whatever's needed, but unfortunately, as a man, Philip is put in the far more difficult situation in which he has to be able to consistently and realistically perform as if he is actually, er, turned on by the person and circumstances no matter what they are. So I found those little glimpses into his past both horrible and yet completely believable.

 

And I liked that, as a direct response, Elizabeth kisses him with her eyes wide open, as if to remind him that they need no fantasies or lenses with one another. It was a lovely touch, and it reminded me that I tend to like Elizabeth best when she has these quiet moments of tenderness for Philip.

[sistermagpie]

It's interesting because I think this is a really accurate insight into Philip and also what makes him the more understandable and empathetic one. While Elizabeth seems to shed her alter-egos with ease, Philip seems to become the characters he's playing, living fully in the moment. It's actually a pretty good look at the differences between two acting techniques -- the external actors who use props and wigs in order to find the characters -- versus those internal actors who prefer to pull what they need from inside and work outward from there.

 

 

And yet, it's also fascinating because Elizabeth tends to use actual memories of her life to be convincing while Philip doesn't. I mean, Elizabeth told the story of her rape to Brad, she talked about her feelings for Philip to Lisa. This makes sense for her character to me because she doesn't really seem to feel like something can be true unless it really is true--if it comes down to really trying to convince someone of something she always goes to a really true place. But then, as you say, she can walk away from the person. She's told them the truth from a disguised place and she doesn't seem to feel like she's really tied herself to them. It's almost like telling it to a stranger leaves her more free of it.

 

Where as Philip totally is a people pleaser who seems to constantly adjust himself to what the person wants/needs and what he needs to get out of them. Even in his real life. There's a scene last season where Elizabeth's upset about Lucia where he pivots like four times in the scene until he figures out exactly what kind of support she needs. Like he'll start to have a reaction, she'll reject it, and then he'll choose another one. The scene in this ep where he spoke to Stan about spending time alone with Matthew was the most honest I've seen him appear with Stan, giving him advice that was something that he himself had honestly just discovered for real.

 

And all that's reflected in the "make it real" speech that doesn't seem to be something that's true for Elizabeth--and I think is yet another thing that always makes her nervous about Philip. Seems like from Day 1 she's always felt that he plays parts too well for her liking, so she always assumes it's real (since with her it would be). Like if he enjoys his life in the US he can't also be loyal to the USSR because she can't do those two things at once. 

 

And she's not really wrong--I often think Philip seems more understandable because he constantly projects a persona of being understandable. But that's just a surface thing. He keeps his past and origins completely locked up and guarded.

 

I loved that little bit of characterization and thought that scene had some beautiful writing -- that Philip thinks of Paige as being graceful and faultless, while Elizabeth remembers her as being a klutz. The subtext there spoke volumes.

 

 

There's a really interest pattern of the way they tend to talk about the kids this way. They almost always have different povs or play Devil's Advocate about it--like last season Elizabeth said Paige and Henry would be dead in a week if left on their own while Philip had much more faith in them. But also Elizabeth seems to see herself so much in Paige, and often in ways where she's seeing her own insecurities in her, seeing Paige as fragile and incompetent where Philip sees her as strong, super-smart and graceful. Philip's never said anything much critical of Henry--but in the convo about how the kids would fare on their own his only defense of him was that he was a kid but "in a few years...who knows?" Where as Elizabeth back in S1 saw Henry as the one who could survive anything. (And she seemed to be right based on the hitchhiking episode where Paige was overly trusting and Henry was suspicious and ruthless in protecting them both.)

 

It's like when they talk about their kids they're the most honest about the things they admire in each other, yet true to the "lacking self-awareness" stuff the producers talk about, they don't seem to realize they're doing it. 

 

There's almost a visible contempt there, though, to me -- for Philip for his 'conscience' and (I think) for Elizabeth too, for her affection for him.

 

 

::shudders:: Yes. So many of their previous handlers we've seen focus so much on Elizabeth and practically ignore Philip except how he relates to her or how she feels about him. But with Gabriel you can see he figured out both their buttons and presses them all the time. To get Elizabeth motivated you stress duty and praise her as a good soldier. She never wants to miss a chance to sacrifice and do her duty and laps up the approval of Gabriel as the authority figure. For Philip he talks about how it's up to him to keep their people from being hurt or killed, and if he gives in to his desire to protect other people he'll cause pain and suffering for his own people.

 

It's two very different, if compatible, motivations that are reflected in the way they deal with everything in their lives. And both those motivations are strong enough to sustain them through years of spying. 

[Guest]

I listened to the podcast for this episode but I couldn't tell you if there is anything super interesting in it because I could barely get past Rhys' thick brogue and high speaking voice!  I've never heard him speak as himself before.  

 

I did think it mildly interesting that he said he (the actor) was uncomfortable with the Kimmie thing, which to me is a little odd considering the actress is 21, but that he channeled that into Phillip's own discomfort since it applied as well.  I'm remembering Franka Potente saying she had no trouble on The Bridge doing a sex scene with an 18 year old actor because "he's an adult, don't be silly".  Or something.  Though I guess all are different and older man/younger woman is squickier, culturally (despite that Potente's character was a predator and the boy was a total innocent).  

[gwhh]

Lets be honest, no way will the network sensors let Kimmie bang Phillip.  Kimmie got a better chance of going MIA or DOA on this show!

 

 

I listened to the podcast for this episode but I couldn't tell you if there is anything super interesting in it because I could barely get past Rhys' thick brogue and high speaking voice!  I've never heard him speak as himself before.  

 

I did think it mildly interesting that he said he (the actor) was uncomfortable with the Kimmie thing, which to me is a little odd considering the actress is 21, but that he channeled that into Phillip's own discomfort since it applied as well.  I'm remembering Franka Potente saying she had no trouble on The Bridge doing a sex scene with an 18 year old actor because "he's an adult, don't be silly".  Or something.  Though I guess all are different and older man/younger woman is squickier, culturally (despite that Potente's character was a predator and the boy was a total innocent).  

[Orbert]

That's true.  The actress may be 21, but the character is 15, and you cannot portray a sexual act with a minor.  That is what makes it child porn, the depiction, not the actual ages of the actors involved.

[Dev F]

That's true.  The actress may be 21, but the character is 15, and you cannot portray a sexual act with a minor.  That is what makes it child porn, the depiction, not the actual ages of the actors involved.

 

Definitely not true. Underage teens have sex in films and TV series all the time. Not graphically, of course, but characters of any age rarely if ever have graphic sex outside of actual porn. And nonpornographic depictions of pedophilia are certainly not verboten. I'm thinking of Gregg Araki's critically acclaimed film Mysterious Skin, which at one point depicts two prepubescent boys performing a sex act on a grown man that would be shocking even if it were between consenting adults. And what makes it not child porn is that a) the act itself takes place just off camera, and b) Araki was careful to film the scene in such a way that the underage actors were in no way aware of the things they were portraying.

[RedHawk]

Finally got to watch this episode a second time and caught that Philip learns about the Salang Tunnel accident when he's in the bedroom listening to BBC News on a shortwave radio. The report finishes just as Elizabeth is walking into the room and he shuts off the radio. They don't discuss the incident and it almost looks as if Philip doesn't tell her about it on purpose.

 

Then he tells her about Martha taking him to the chlldcare facility to look at a potential foster child. He says, "I could almost do it if it kept Martha on track." This is when I realized how much Philip is yearning for a normal existence, one where he can just be a successful travel agent with a beautiful wife he loves and two great kids, plus a good buddy to have beers with and help get through a first date. He is remembering when Paige and Henry were little children and Elizabeth realizes he's doing that thing of thinking he'd like another kid, to go through those young years of childrearing again. She gives him this weird look and sort of shakes her head; she doesn't like what he's saying and thinking, so she asks how he's doing with Kimmie. So much is said in that scene with so few words!

[sistermagpie]

Finally got to watch this episode a second time and caught that Philip learns about the Salang Tunnel accident when he's in the bedroom listening to BBC News on a shortwave radio. The report finishes just as Elizabeth is walking into the room and he shuts off the radio. They don't discuss the incident and it almost looks as if Philip doesn't tell her about it on purpose.

 

 

I'm actually not sure he learns about it in that scene--I believe the incident happened before the death of Brezhnev. I thought it was possible that he wasn't just learning about it (and not telling Elizabeth), but actually brooding over it even though it had happened a few weeks before--information is still coming in about it. Elizabeth knows, I think, what he was listening to when she walks in, so her "You look worried" is an oblique reference to it, but Philip talks about Martha rather than that incident. And with Kimmie the thing they're watching just as he gets up to get the suitcase is I think a nature documentary on a volcano erupting, but it's a focus on the fiery explosion and smoke, which might also be a callback to it. The announcer in the first scene makes reference to explosions within the tunnel after giving the death toll (which could go much higher) and the volcano documentary also talks about explosions of magma with a close-up of smoke.

[SlovakPrincess]

I'm having trouble with the Kimmy storyline, as well. Like, I keep yelling at the tv like a crazy person "no, she's fifteen! Agh!"

Elizabeth squishing that poor guy under his car was a bit much, as well. I want to have sympathy for her, because her mind was so warped at a young age ... but she really is horrifying sometimes. Of course, Philip killed that poor waiter once, and Stan killed Vlad for no reason. Ack, sometimes I think I just watch this show to see if Paige makes it out of this mess ok.

Of course, so far this season has been a hard slog altogether, with the dead Annalise scenes, etc.

[sistermagpie]

Interesting how Philip talked to Elizabeth about having sex with Kimmie. In the end he seemed to want her to give him the order to do it. Made me realize that she basically is his commanding officer in their hierarchy. (I got this before but the scene really underscored it.)

 

 

Looking around old threads waiting for the new season to start and I don't think I caught this the first time, but I totally disagree that Elizabeth is his commanding officer. They work independently and as partners. If Elizabeth at times seems like the commander I think that's just down to Elizabeth being bossy and domineering and Philip being more passive and manipulative by nature. He defers to her because that's the best way to deal with her, but she can't order him to do anything in terms of rank--they were both just teenagers who went through the same program. I think when they work out their missions together they do it as equals--in fact, I remember the writers even saying that once, that often early drafts of scripts have one character saying "Okay, so we'll do such and such..." and in later drafts they always correct that because it should be assumed that they come to agreements on everything. Philip can definitely speak up when he thinks it's necessary.

 

It would probably be impractical to try to assign one partner as the boss in this type of operation. Elizabeth's just the natural hall monitor of any group, imo.

 

Also re: the Kimmie angle, I think another thing that ties them together is that Philip basically *is* Kimmie much the way he is Martha and was Anneleise. He has a lot of assets who are desperately lonely and willing to work around someone who even pretends to care about them. Philip understands that, I think, because he really does seem to have some of those qualities himself. He's a really isolated character turning himself into the perfect "imaginary friend" for other isolated characters.

Edited December 11, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎2‎.‎2015 at 6:19 AM, Shriekingeel said:

But would Oleg cooperate with Stan's plan? "We can trade Zinaida for Nina" means that Nina would become American property, and Oleg would never get to see her unless he defected himself. Right? Also, if Oleg defected, there would be dire consequences for his father.

 

On ‎26‎.‎2‎.‎2015 at 6:24 AM, Superpole2000 said:

The only part of the plot that is dragging for me is the Stan/Oleg stuff. Their scenes together seem far-fetched but also quite dull. The show killed the dramatic tension that would naturally be present when spies from either side meet when they had Oleg pull out a gun on Stan and not use it. Now they're just talking about saving the women they love(d), and it's a bit too ridiculous for me.

I don't doubt that Stan wants to "save" Nina, but he also, and perhaps even more, uses "lets save Nina by exchanging her with the interloper" in order to use Oleg. 

Oleg is very dumb, if he gives information to Stan - it's treason and he can get a death sentence for it. 

And it's doutful if Nina even "deserves" it. But if one loves, one doesn't ask if the loved one deserves love. 

On ‎26‎.‎2‎.‎2015 at 11:01 PM, Umbelina said:

I always try to flip the script, and think of THOSE times, and imagine how I would feel if Philip and Elizabeth were portraying the good guys (USA!  USA!) spying in the Soviet Union during the late seventies, early eighties.  I think schools were still having kids duck under their desks for bomb drills.

 

Nuclear war.  Crazy assed leaders.  Horrid human rights.  Gulags.  Torture.  Very little food.

 

The good guys, (USA!) Phil and Liz, American spies, infiltrate Russia and try to prevent advances in Soviet nuclear weapons, are appalled by the social norms Russians accept, etc.  Would we still root for them?  Which one more?  The true-blue American Liz?  Or the seduced by Russia, softy Phil, who may compromise national security because of his emotions? 

 

I disagree that Philip and Elizabeth always have it easy.  They've had SEVERAL very close calls, but the nature of them being the leads may lessen the feeling of danger, but only because we, the viewers, know they are the leads, and without them there is no show. 

 

I love that this show makes spying messes, and cold, and that death, sex, whatever it takes is all business.  We are not in a romanticized James Bond world here, and the line between sides is murky.  For just one example, look what both sides did to Nina!  Lie, make promises, but the FBI didn't give one shit about her life, didn't mind lying to her, using her, knowing full well she'd probably be killed in the end.  Does that make them bad, or just doing their jobs?

 

Both sides have a greater goal, and both sides believe in those goals.  Oleg and Philip has doubts, and in some ways, so does Stan, about their orders.

 

I love the complications, and much of it feels real emotionally to me.  "Assets" are completely expendable.  What's more important?  One person's life, or stopping "Star Wars" and "Stealth?"  which could kill millions? 

I agree wholly. The characters aren't ordinary persons living ordinary life. Theirs is the world where what is bad when "their side" do it, is good "our side" do it.

What I like in this show is that nothing is black or white, but everything on the both side is grey.

Take Afghanistan: it's clear that it's wrong to stage a coup in an independent country and change its system, even more, that Russia made a terrible mistake by imagining that it would succeed where the British had failed in 19th century. But the religious fanatics that opposed the Sovies weren't exactly freedom fighters either and by helping them, the USA growed the seeds of her problems in the future.

On ‎27‎.‎2‎.‎2015 at 5:37 PM, Bannon said:

I didn't know that the ratings were so poor, but I, like a previous poster stated, don't need s character to "root" for. Elizabeth is a villain, it seems obvious to me, and the point is to make her an interesting villain. I agree that the FBI characters are written poorly, and that is the show's largest weakness; it really harms dramatic tension when one side of the adversarial relationship being portrayed is comprised of lamebrains. The concept of the show has so much potential; I hope it isn't completely squandered.

I don't think that there are any villains in the show. On the contrary, all characters on both side are morally flawed. And that may be too much for some people.

The reason why P&E aren't caught is simply that it would the plot demands it. 

On ‎27‎.‎2‎.‎2015 at 7:42 PM, ChromaKelly said:

When Philip asked Elizabeth if he should sleep with Kimmy and she said I don't know, I took that to mean Philip sees how far gone Elizabeth is, if she actually thinks sleeping with a 15 year old is an acceptable thing to do for the cause. I think this, combined the Paige issue, is going to be what pushes him over the edge. He already seems to be questioning everything.

What is "an acceptable thing to do for the cause" depends on the situation. What if it was a 15-year-old Jewish girl and Nazi officer who had critical information? 

I think that's hypocritical to condemn only the Soviets, considering what CIA people had done in Homeland.

On ‎2‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 4:00 AM, Boundary said:

Philip and Elizabeth have been doing brutal things from day one. Their actions, including Philip sleeping with Kimberly, should't be too surprising given that the guy spent most of last season murdering people, including innocent janitors. The under age sex falls into the same category, it bothers him that he has to do so (just like those killings last year) but he does it nevertheless. 

 

I read that differently. Like I've pointed out, Philip does a lot of things he doesn't like. It's one of the main reasons he doesn't want Paige recruited. But that whole conversation in the bedroom with Philip was so layered, and I'd put "transferring moral burden to someone else" at the bottom. I knew Elizabeth would ask about herself as soon as the conversation moved in that direction but she brought up Kimmy first. And when he asked her if he should sleep with her, he was asking as a (true) husband. This was not a professional question and her answer was interesting and deserves highlighting. On a personal level, this most stoic of operators either 1. didn't know if professionally this was a line Philip should cross or 2. if sleeping with the girl would jeopardize their own personal marriage. Philip and Elizabeth have two marriages: the professional one used as a front, known to the KGB and one that shifts to accommodate Clarke's timetable for instance; and the more personal one that involves only the two of them and their kids.

 

For me it's the opposite: I feel way too much tension that Philip and/or Elizabeth will get caught. I tense up every time they put on a disguise. On Alias, say, that James Bond effect was in full flow, except that we knew that Syd would get caught in every mission but also that the music will kick in and she'd fight her way out of there. I still enjoyed that series immensely. On this show, in the 3rd season, I've found that I've become too invested in them not getting caught, I coil up until the credits roll. I relax a bit when Stan, Nina or Oleg are on screen and I seem to "enjoy" those scenes more. I also enjoy the Jennings family scenes more this year, they are layered (even taking your daughter shopping means something, like a chess move!). I still adore the show but sometimes I put it off for a few hours (or days) until I'm in the mood to handle the inevitable tension. And if my experience is not unique, that might partially explain the live ratings.

A great analysis.

I also don't want P&E to be caught. Not because I liked the Soviet system irl, on the contrary, but this is a show that gives us to see their POV and, even more, to see them as human, and it would destroy it. 

On ‎4‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 6:00 PM, sistermagpie said:

And yet, it's also fascinating because Elizabeth tends to use actual memories of her life to be convincing while Philip doesn't. I mean, Elizabeth told the story of her rape to Brad, she talked about her feelings for Philip to Lisa. This makes sense for her character to me because she doesn't really seem to feel like something can be true unless it really is true--if it comes down to really trying to convince someone of something she always goes to a really true place. But then, as you say, she can walk away from the person. She's told them the truth from a disguised place and she doesn't seem to feel like she's really tied herself to them. It's almost like telling it to a stranger leaves her more free of it.

 

Where as Philip totally is a people pleaser who seems to constantly adjust himself to what the person wants/needs and what he needs to get out of them. Even in his real life. There's a scene last season where Elizabeth's upset about Lucia where he pivots like four times in the scene until he figures out exactly what kind of support she needs. Like he'll start to have a reaction, she'll reject it, and then he'll choose another one. The scene in this ep where he spoke to Stan about spending time alone with Matthew was the most honest I've seen him appear with Stan, giving him advice that was something that he himself had honestly just discovered for real.

 

And all that's reflected in the "make it real" speech that doesn't seem to be something that's true for Elizabeth--and I think is yet another thing that always makes her nervous about Philip. Seems like from Day 1 she's always felt that he plays parts too well for her liking, so she always assumes it's real (since with her it would be). Like if he enjoys his life in the US he can't also be loyal to the USSR because she can't do those two things at once. 

 

And she's not really wrong--I often think Philip seems more understandable because he constantly projects a persona of being understandable. But that's just a surface thing. He keeps his past and origins completely locked up and guarded.

 

There's a really interest pattern of the way they tend to talk about the kids this way. They almost always have different povs or play Devil's Advocate about it--like last season Elizabeth said Paige and Henry would be dead in a week if left on their own while Philip had much more faith in them. But also Elizabeth seems to see herself so much in Paige, and often in ways where she's seeing her own insecurities in her, seeing Paige as fragile and incompetent where Philip sees her as strong, super-smart and graceful. Philip's never said anything much critical of Henry--but in the convo about how the kids would fare on their own his only defense of him was that he was a kid but "in a few years...who knows?" Where as Elizabeth back in S1 saw Henry as the one who could survive anything. (And she seemed to be right based on the hitchhiking episode where Paige was overly trusting and Henry was suspicious and ruthless in protecting them both.)

 

It's like when they talk about their kids they're the most honest about the things they admire in each other, yet true to the "lacking self-awareness" stuff the producers talk about, they don't seem to realize they're doing it. 

 

::shudders:: Yes. So many of their previous handlers we've seen focus so much on Elizabeth and practically ignore Philip except how he relates to her or how she feels about him. But with Gabriel you can see he figured out both their buttons and presses them all the time. To get Elizabeth motivated you stress duty and praise her as a good soldier. She never wants to miss a chance to sacrifice and do her duty and laps up the approval of Gabriel as the authority figure. For Philip he talks about how it's up to him to keep their people from being hurt or killed, and if he gives in to his desire to protect other people he'll cause pain and suffering for his own people.

 

It's two very different, if compatible, motivations that are reflected in the way they deal with everything in their lives. And both those motivations are strong enough to sustain them through years of spying. 

A great analysis.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Roseanna

[SusanSunflower]

I found this a remarkably grim episode.  There are the many parallels between Paige and Jared and Kimmie and Hans ... and then between Kimmie and E's Lockheed "asset" (both very vulnerable lonely "reaching out" human beings -- as we have seen before in numerous "marks" including Martha and Gregory and the iron-ball paint guy).  (Ironically Oleg also reached out to Nina out of HIS lonely sense of isolation as a Russian who liked America -- too much). 

It will be interesting to see if Elizabeth continues with needling Phillip's masculinity -- wrt Martha and Kimmie.  I think she "woke up" during the "like Martha" rough sex she demanded from Phillip -- that Phillip had a "life" (sexual and otherwise) outside their marriage ... which was referenced when she asked him if he had ever needed "to make it real" with her ... of course he did.  She was a rape-traumatized never-been-loved secret-agent-first who he had to pretend to be married to (newly married, before there were children).  And so he "let her take the lead" (as he has been shown doing repeatedly, rarely initiating the "first move", not risking rejection or anger, allowing his "mark" including E to think they're in control). 

I think Paige is rousing all sorts of male-territorial paternal protective feelings ... I think he can easily see it being demanded that Paige allow herself to be used (as he used Annalise) as a sexual plaything, bait for some "mark".   Paige is still inexperienced ... I don't think she's had her first date, her first heavy petting session, her first weed, her first too much to drink ... certainly a virgin.  Have she and Elizabeth had any sort of Birds&Bees talk yet, beyond the princess and prince charming level of "some day" ... 

I think a possible ending involves Phillip's fury -- much like the Michael Caine version of "Get Carter" -- and vengeance if anything "happens" to his family, and it will largely be a shock to everyone, this Vesuvius of anger arising from decades of putting the mission first, ahead of his preferences, of needing to "keep the peace" with E in furtherence of "the mission." 

I've seen almost no mention of Paige's furious flirting with Pastor Tim (which somewhat parallels Kimmie and Jim) ... her youth and innocence telegraphed by her doing so flagrantly in front of his wife (who is probably used to all the young girls having crushing on her husband).  It will be interesting to see if that relationship remains happy and chaste ... particularly if Paige believes she is "owed" a reward for her conversion, baptism, etc. in the face of her parents lack of enthusiasm.   

It's interesting how little we know, have been shown, has been said about P&E's "beliefs" ... particularly since being atheist parents is a challenge in this country (even for non KGB agents), the religiosity of others via children's peers and their parents is often intrusive, particularly at holidays, but also with "big reward" milestones and ceremonies, like first communions or bar mitzahs, religiously denomination summer camps, and -- in most families -- the pressure from grandparents, aunt and uncles and every nosy co-workers.  I was raised an atheist of atheist/agnostic parents despite my father ordering my atheist mother not to do so (as she had done with my older brother, his step-son).  It's not something you can avoid discussing until they turn 11 or 13 ... and the late 1970's-1980's was a time of great Jesus-Freak christian fundamentalist revival, imho, on the rebound, even a antidote/correction to the 1960's, part of a depressing "getting back to basics" return to status quo. 

Yes, older men and teenage / high school girls was not the scandal it is now ... and yes, Kimmie would have been "attracted" to Jim's money, generosity, car, access to more and better drugs, and the freedoms presented by being an older man's date (often unquestioned entry into adult venues) ... an age-appropriate peer would all in a panic about college and likely consumed with sports and video games.  In my experience, it was more often the older man who was left "heartbroken" (and angry) when his younger squeeze decided she'd had enough. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

On ‎21‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 10:11 PM, SusanSunflower said:

It will be interesting to see if Elizabeth continues with needling Phillip's masculinity -- wrt Martha and Kimmie.  I think she "woke up" during the "like Martha" rough sex she demanded from Phillip -- that Phillip had a "life" (sexual and otherwise) outside their marriage ... which was referenced when she asked him if he had ever needed "to make it real" with her ... of course he did.  She was a rape-traumatized never-been-loved secret-agent-first who he had to pretend to be married to (newly married, before there were children).  And so he "let her take the lead" (as he has been shown doing repeatedly, rarely initiating the "first move", not risking rejection or anger, allowing his "mark" including E to think they're in control). 

What you mean that Philip had "a 'life (sexual and otherwise) outside the marriage"? Isn't Philip playing a role with Martha and Kimmie just as an actors play Hamlet and Ofelia or Anna Karenina and Vronsky? They don't become their role. Are you saying that Philip somehow has?    

[Roseanna]

On ‎21‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 10:11 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Yes, older men and teenage / high school girls was not the scandal it is now ... and yes, Kimmie would have been "attracted" to Jim's money, generosity, car, access to more and better drugs, and the freedoms presented by being an older man's date (often unquestioned entry into adult venues) ... an age-appropriate peer would all in a panic about college and likely consumed with sports and video games.  In my experience, it was more often the older man who was left "heartbroken" (and angry) when his younger squeeze decided she'd had enough. 

Isn't it a crime in the US? 

And whatever Kimmie thinks and feels, Jim/Philip isn't interested in her sexually but rather feels, as he identifies her with his daughter, it would be incestous to bed her. Wouldn't it be even more crushing for her than for Martha to learn that she has been used not even for sex, but for her father's secret? 

[SusanSunflower]

Statutory rape is rarely prosecuted ... even less often then with a willing teenager.  Back then, amazingly, women (even young women and girls) understood than men wanted to have sex with them !!!!! and were willing to do "almost anything" to get in their pants ... I honestly don't know how we got to where we are now... Three girls from my elementary school got pregnant and dropped out of school (back in the 60's) by 8th grade ... and no one talked about rape ... and some were envious because they were getting married (as I recalled) and having a baby.  I switched schools but recall a few years later seeing a very pregnant classmate doing laundry and smoking a cigarette!!! from the bus on my way home from school ... She might have been 16, good family, extremely talented musician, expected to go to music school - Julliard was mentioned (I was heartbroken for her, but there was no going back). 

By the late 70's and early 80's, a decade later, what with Cosmo and extreme promiscuousness (and cocaine and quaaludes), a sophisticated teen (like Kimmie) would be -- as we saw her -- aggressively trying to game the system.  (Do we know or are we assuming she's a virgin?? I don't think so. The show wants to tease this).   

No, I don't think that Kimmie would be so naive as to believe that Jim represented true-love-forever ... I haven't seen any (any) indication that she's interested in more than sex, drugs and using her power of seduction on Jim to avoid being all home alone.  I think Kimmie is too worldly to expect or want to get married to Jim ... Jim will not knock her up and abortion is legal.  I had no intention of marrying my high school sweetheart.   I had college and likely some sort of career and traveling ahead.  Whether or not Phillip had a vasectomy, Clark uses condoms.  Martha loves Clark ... she pursued him, seduced him, reeled him in and married him.  Now she's going for the second jewel in the crown or female scout badge, a child. 

The Polanski plea bargain was actually considered harsh for a first time offense, and a willingness to take a plea and avoid the trauma-to-the-victim of a trial ... the weeks he spend in psychiatric evaluation were extremely unusual (and punitive).  That was then, this is now. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

On ‎23‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 9:28 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Statutory rape is rarely prosecuted ... even less often then with a willing teenager.  

I didn't mean rape but isn't it a crime in the US if an adult has sex with a child (which Kimble is under the law)? A child isn't supposed to have an ability to give a consent.    

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I didn't mean rape but isn't it a crime in the US if an adult has sex with a child (which Kimble is under the law)? A child isn't supposed to have an ability to give a consent.    

Yes, that's what statutory rape is--a legal adult having sex with a child. Even if it's consensual it's considered statutory rape. 

[Roseanna]

Elizabeth and Philip discussed whether it's equal for a woman and for a man to force oneself to have sex in their spying business. 

I don't know the answer, but at least a woman can fake whereas a man can't.    

[SusanSunflower]

driving over the speed limit is a crime too ... having overdue library fines ... 

Most statutory rape cases that I've been aware of (not child molestation/pedophilia stuff) result when parents call the police because someone has had sex with their child (usually a daughter) ... and most cases are dropped because the victim doesn't want to to this (even though in some places it is possible to prosecute without the victims consent, even against the victims will, without the victim's cooperation).  It used to be -- with my middle school classmates -- that as long as the parents and the victim were okay, no law enforcement was going to pursue a criminal complaint.**  There are also "romeo and juliet laws" that limit prosecution wrt two teenagers consensual sex (even is one if over age of consent and the other is not). 

Between kiddie porn and some pedophilia hysteria, people have gotten very "concrete" about age of consent ... when most teenagers eventually find someone they want to have sex with sooner rather than later ... to unburden them of their virginity.  People used to get married much younger -- right out of high school -- too often when there was an unplanned pregnancy ... even way back before I was born.  

It's begun to feel like slut-shaming of the many teens who have sex within the happy context of first love(s) ... as if sex were dirty or harmful.  

** one of the confounding variable in the Polanski case is that the victim and her mother didn't particularly want (iirc) to press charges but the non-custodial father was furious at his ex-wife -- and Polanski and the authorities -- and the judge wanted to nail Polanski to make an example of him (since his buddy's Nicholson and Beatty's hijinks were notorious) ...

Edited May 25, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

On ‎23‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 9:28 PM, SusanSunflower said:

No, I don't think that Kimmie would be so naive as to believe that Jim represented true-love-forever ... I haven't seen any (any) indication that she's interested in more than sex, drugs and using her power of seduction on Jim to avoid being all home alone.  I think Kimmie is too worldly to expect or want to get married to Jim ... 

It's not about it that Kimmie believes that she would have a permanent relationship, but she evidently believes that they have a realationship now, that Jim is attracted to her sexually and cares for her emotionally. Finding out that it all was a sham and he was only using her is going to harm her trust in men generally and thereby her relationships in the future.

In short, sex isn't sex but it's only used for something else.  

It's no defence that Kimmie tries to seduce Jim. He is an adult and she is an unhappy teenager lacking his father's love and attention.

Before all, that's how Philip sees it. It's a limit that he is reluctant to cross as he is also a father of a daughter of same age.  

Edited May 25, 2017 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

On ‎23‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 9:28 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Three girls from my elementary school got pregnant and dropped out of school (back in the 60's) by 8th grade ... . 

What you mean with "dropped out of school" - wasn't they actually fired because of pregnancy? But the boys who had got them pregnant weren't, or would they? 

[SusanSunflower]

I don't remember any discussion of the "boys" at all... but the boys wouldn't have needed to drop out because they weren't pregnant.  There was no talk of rape, just an assumption that they'd probably, with their parents' permission, get married if the "boy" owned up ... 

My point is only that back in 1965, this wasn't some "blue moon" event that nobody every heard of happening. 

The thing with Kimmie is that she's a young girl using her sexuality to "buy" the companionship and caring she's desperate for ... If she can "hook" Jim on a sexual relationship, maybe, he won't leave.  This isn't unique either ... "will you still love me tomorrow" has often lost out to the belief that if a young girl doesn't put out, "he" will find someone else who will. 

I'm just reacting to all the folks squicked by this story line ... see also Jody Foster in Taxi Driver and other media presentation of young girls. Then and now, kids more thoroughly learn the "transactional nature" of sexuality (if I do this for you, you do that for me) better than they understand "being in love" 

Kimmie has low esteem and abandonment issues that often plague children of divorce and/or workaholic parents.   Using her "assets" to "get her needs met" it's sad and it's icky ... Jim is probably more respectful of her age and vulnerability than someone her own age would be. 

Speaking of which, I actually think that Paige and Henry as "well adjusted" is probably far fetched -- another story for some other fan-wanking, but I did wonder if P&E had live-in au pairs when they were younger or what ... and exactly why, after a lifetime of being left alone most nights -- Paige is suddenly wondering what's up.  Lucky they never got stomach flu only to discover that mom and dad were not confabbing behind their closed door ... not to mention ringing phones, called not quickly and tersely answered by Mom or Dad ... etc. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Speaking of which, I actually think that Paige and Henry as "well adjusted" is probably far fetched -- another story for some other fan-wanking, but I did wonder if P&E had live-in au pairs when they were younger or what ... and exactly why, after a lifetime of being left alone most nights -- Paige is suddenly wondering what's up.  Lucky they never got stomach flu only to discover that mom and dad were not confabbing behind their closed door ... not to mention ringing phones, called not tersely answered by Mom or Dad ... etc. 

They weren't alone most nights. It's implied that their lives have gotten much busier since the start of the series. In the past they probably had one parent as home as much as they could. Otherwise they got sitters like they did at the start of the show. The kids only started to be left alone when Paige was old enough to babysit.

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 3:11 AM, SusanSunflower said:

I don't remember any discussion of the "boys" at all... but the boys wouldn't have needed to drop out because they weren't pregnant.  

Women can work when they are pregnant and after the baby is born. So it was not the reason why the girls had to drop out from the school.  They were punished, also when they married. But a girl couldn't become pregnant alone (at that time, that is). Because of moral double standard, the boys weren't treated with the same way.  

I remember well when the change happened here: in 1969 my classmate became pregnant and married her boyfriend but could continue in the school. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 3:11 AM, SusanSunflower said:

Speaking of which, I actually think that Paige and Henry as "well adjusted" is probably far fetched -- another story for some other fan-wanking, but I did wonder if P&E had live-in au pairs when they were younger or what ... and exactly why, after a lifetime of being left alone most nights -- Paige is suddenly wondering what's up.  Lucky they never got stomach flu only to discover that mom and dad were not confabbing behind their closed door ... not to mention ringing phones, called not quickly and tersely answered by Mom or Dad ... etc. 

 

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 3:18 AM, sistermagpie said:

They weren't alone most nights. It's implied that their lives have gotten much busier since the start of the series. In the past they probably had one parent as home as much as they could. Otherwise they got sitters like they did at the start of the show. The kids only started to be left alone when Paige was old enough to babysit.

I don't think that Paige and Henry's life is different than children of parents who have a shift work. Actually, their life is much better than if they had a single mom having two jobs. Their parents are f.ex. always at home in the morning to send them to the school.

As some have said earlier, many teens were so interested in their own matters that they wouldn't wonder about their parents, unlike Paige.  

I found the scene where Paige and Henry waited in vain for their mother to fetch them from the mall very funny as kids much younger than Henry can move freely here. But I guess there aren't other busses than the school bus in DC?  

I think that parents who live in constant fear "if anything happens" to their children are harmful to them. Instead, one must teach kids what to do. 

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that Paige and Henry's life is different than children of parents who have a shift work. Actually, their life is much better than if they had a single mom having two jobs. Their parents are f.ex. always at home in the morning to send them to the school.

Exactly. Latchkey kids were totally common in the 80s. We see plenty of scenes that show the family very often eats breakfast and dinner together, which is not the case for plenty of other families. Elizabeth and Philip both had single mothers and were on their own just as much if not more.  People seem to erase scenes of the family all being at home together or they don't count if the parents aren't looking into Paige and Henry's eyes throughout the scene.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I found the scene where Paige and Henry waited in vain for their mother to fetch them from the mall very funny as kids much younger than Henry can move freely here. But I guess there aren't other busses than the school bus in DC?  

At least not one they knew how to get from the mall! Unless Paige just decided that was a smart thing to do. In her shoes, if I knew exactly how to get home from there I'd start walking. The kids were able to get home on foot just fine from wherever that guy took them. They're lucky he didn't get them completely lost.

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, I was more thinking about keeping up the pretense that they were a normal family with both mom and dad working at the family owned (wildly successful) travel agency, and yet, still having to drop everything all the time to deal with "work" and ticket deliveries and change of plans ... 

It sort of remined me of the -- I'm dating myself -- Saturday Night Live Coneheads (who were space aliens) who iirc had not broken the news to their children who were reaching an age where they kept asking questions ... about why their parents were different from other parents they knew ...  Yes, suburbia is alienating, but what about their other neighbors, and Paige and Henry's other peers/classmates, little league, girl scouts, soccer practice, school sports, band/orchestra ... and it's all okay ... because yes, it's a tv show. 

The kids trying to get home from the mall might have called the travel agency, or a neighbor, or some other person (the parent of a friend, for instance) ... or just started walking home.  I don't remember hitchhiking being done much after the early 1970's ... too many scary stories ... some places had traditional hitchhiking -- there are hitchhikers where I live in the mountains now because there's no bus service at all in most of the region ....

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Actually, I was more thinking about keeping up the pretense that they were a normal family with both mom and dad working at the family owned (wildly successful) travel agency, and yet, still having to drop everything all the time to deal with "work" and ticket deliveries and change of plans ... 

I think this actually apparently does make sense for people who own small businesses. They often do have to run out at all hours, so the choice of job was a good one.

9 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

but what about their other neighbors, and Paige and Henry's other peers/classmates, little league, girl scouts, soccer practice, school sports, band/orchestra ... and it's all okay ... because yes, it's a tv show. 

But Paige and Henry don't stand out at all. Remember when the series started Paige even once talked to Matthew about how she couldn't understand what it was like to have a dad with an job like his because her own life was so safe and normal. We know the parents ferry the kids around to all these activities just like everybody else's parents. Paige noticed the weirdness because she was particularly focused on her parents, but even she saw a lot of it reflected in the parents of friends who had affairs.

Edited May 28, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Armchair Critic]

Watching Phillip with the teenager reminded me that the first time I saw Keri Russell was in 'The Babysitter's Seduction' where she also played a teen with wavy blonde hair who was having an affair with an older man.