All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[CrazyInAlabama]

Yes, when coming back from Africa, Luka did his own zero cost medicine.   That's when he sent a man home with appendix symptoms, but didn't do anything to diagnose his appendicitis, and the man came back with a ruptured appendix, which means he was going to be in the hospital for a long time to get rid of the infection. 

[Guest]

I can't tell if I like Sam or not yet. I have a disposition against her because the actress played one of my least favorite Mad Men characters. 

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, Birdie said:

And Susan mentions she’s divorced from Chuck (another terrible character that made me question what Susan ever saw in him).

I don't get that one at all; he was just plain gross to look at, and there was certainly nothing about his personality or intellect to overcome that.  There is not enough alcohol even in Vegas for me to hook up with him, let alone marry him, but, okay, I'll go with her "oops, we got married" one-nighter.  Her staying married to and procreating with him, though?  No.  Susan was a lot better the first time around.

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

I don't get that one at all; he was just plain gross to look at, and there was certainly nothing about his personality or intellect to overcome that.  There is not enough alcohol even in Vegas for me to hook up with him, let alone marry him, but, okay, I'll go with her "oops, we got married" one-nighter.  Her staying married to and procreating with him, though?  No.  Susan was a lot better the first time around.

I didn't think Chuck was a completely awful character, but with Susan? That pairing never made sense, especially the Las Vegas thing. Susan always looked like a professional, while Chuck looked like he smelled. Susan looked like she thought Chuck smelled. 

[Birdie]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

don't get that one at all; he was just plain gross to look at, and there was certainly nothing about his personality or intellect to overcome that.  There is not enough alcohol even in Vegas for me to hook up with him, let alone marry him, but, okay, I'll go with her "oops, we got married" one-nighter.  Her staying married to and procreating with him, though?  No.  Susan was a lot better the first time around.

 

50 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Susan always looked like a professional, while Chuck looked like he smelled. Susan looked like she thought Chuck smelled. 

Lol my mom and I sometimes refer to him as Fast Food because he’s fat and greasy looking. 
 

I’ve seen Donal Logue in others things, most recently Stumptown, and though he’s a grizzly old man, he’s much better than ER. The ER Make-up and costume people did him no favors. And his long, unwashed hair didn’t help. 

[debraran]

@doodlebug Can you tell me why they always have to leave the breathing tube in when a patient dies, baby or adult? Carrie on ER had them take Sandy's out although Elizabeth or someone initially objected. They said it's for the coroner but why?

My dad didn't but he arrested at home and they probably never had to put tube in.

Thanks in advance!

Edited January 4, 2021 by debraran

[WendyCR72]

11 hours ago, Birdie said:

i’m glad Carter never got back together with her. And Susan mentions she’s divorced from Chuck (another terrible character that made me question what Susan ever saw in him). So I like to imagine that Susan got her early personality back from seasons 1-3 and got together with Carter.

I said the same thing a page or two back.  🙂

[readster]

18 hours ago, Heathen said:

I didn't think Chuck was a completely awful character, but with Susan? That pairing never made sense, especially the Las Vegas thing. Susan always looked like a professional, while Chuck looked like he smelled. Susan looked like she thought Chuck smelled. 

Yeah, that's why I didn't even get the "married in Vegas" thing. I mean, how hammered was Susan to even get into a situation to marry this guy, who just HAPPENED to also work in the EMT field in Chicago. That was really stretching things, then even after the baby was born and Chuck went: "Well, maybe he won't got to college." I wanted to go: "Ok, yeah, not everyone goes to college, but you don't just magically become an EMT without secondary education post high school." His character just never made sense and I always liked the actor, but really, the hell?

[doodlebug]

15 hours ago, debraran said:

@doodlebug Can you tell me why they always have to leave the breathing tube in when a patient dies, baby or adult? Carrie on ER had them take Sandy's out although Elizabeth or someone initially objected. They said it's for the coroner but why?

My dad didn't but he arrested at home and they probably never had to put tube in.

Thanks in advance!

Anytime a patient dies within 24 hours of arriving at the hospital, or at home, they are what is known as a 'coroner's case'.  In Sandy's case, she died from injuries received while fighting a fire.  I don't recall the circumstances, but, if it was an arson fire, the arsonist could face murder charges in her death.

In any event, after someone dies in these circumstances, a couple of things happen.  If the person was known to be seriously ill and under a doctor's care, the coroner may just call the person's doctor and ask if he or she is comfortable signing the death certificate.  This is what happens in hospice or with patients with serious chronic illnesses.  For example, my mother had congestive heart failure, was on dialysis and had severe vascular disease.  She died at home, in bed, after several months of deterioration after she and her doctor decided that she did not want to be hospitalized again.  When she died, my dad called 911, they called her doctor, the death certificate was signed by him and the coroner didn't need to do anything else.

When someone dies unexpectedly, either by trauma or by sudden illness; they wouldn't have a doctor providing ongoing care and the cause of death might not be clear; there may even be concerns about homicide or suicide.  In those cases, the ER doctor doesn't sign the death certificate, either, nor would the surgeon or attending physician unless they were hospitalized more than 24 hours and the doctor felt confident in the diagnosis.  After the death, the coroner would collect the facts on  the case; check any police statements, read the EMT reports, maybe talk to the ER doc or surgeon.  Sometimes, they will talk to witnesses or family members.  In the case of an older person with known risk factors for strokes or heart attacks and no one being suspicious of the cause of death; the coroner can decide not to do an autopsy and just release the body or do a general overall inspection of the body without cutting.  My dad, in his 70's, overweight and on blood pressure meds, collapsed in front of my sister and brother in law.  Multiple people in his family including his mother and 2 siblings had died of sudden cardiac arrest.  Since he wasn't sick beforehand, his doctor couldn't certify the cause.  The coroner read the hospital records, the EMT records and he then called me (my name was listed as the one to call in emergency in his records).  He asked me what I thought, was there reason to suspect foul play, was I satisfied it was a sudden cardiac arrest? Nope and yep.  He signed without an autopsy,

Now we get to Sandy, a young, healthy woman who died of work related injuries; potentially due to a criminal act.  The coroner is going to do an autopsy on her and catalog all of her injuries and come to a conclusion about the cause of death and potentially need to provide evidence that will be examined in court if someone caused the fire.  However, she's been in the hospital.  She's had blood draws, CPR, been intubated.  All of those things can cause bruising, swelling, broken bones, broken teeth and other trauma.  The coroner needs to know what medical interventions were done and where so he or she can separate the effects of that from the trauma.  So, in order to make it easier for the coroner to know what has been done, all IV lines, catheters, endotracheal tubes are left in place.  They usually cut the ET tube at the lips, the IV with just an inch or two of tubing remaining , so the body is easier to transport; but they don't remove the tubes.  What if the ET tube was in her esophagus and not her trachea?  Then the fire is probably not the direct cause of her death.  What if, in placing the tube, some of her teeth were chipped, her tongue was abraded, her trachea was swollen?  They need to know that it was from the tube and not from being hit in the face with debris, etc.  If she had broken ribs and had received CPR, then it might not be possible to know if the ribs were broken when she was in the fire or afterwards.  And on, and on.  In real life, Kerry would know good and well why the tube needed to stay and wouldn't have asked and nobody would've allowed it, either.

My nephew drowned accidentally in a pool when he was 5.  We were allowed to see him in the trauma room afterwards.  The ET tube was cut at the lips and he had several IV catheters in his arms, taped to secure them.  We didn't think twice about it, it didn't matter.

Edited January 5, 2021 by doodlebug

[debraran]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

Anytime a patient dies within 24 hours of arriving at the hospital, or at home, they are what is known as a 'coroner's case'.  In Sandy's case, she died from injuries received while fighting a fire.  I don't recall the circumstances, but, if it was an arson fire, the arsonist could face murder charges in her death.

In any event, after someone dies in these circumstances, a couple of things happen.  If the person was known to be seriously ill and under a doctor's care, the coroner may just call the person's doctor and ask if he or she is comfortable signing the death certificate.  This is what happens in hospice or with patients with serious chronic illnesses.  For example, my mother had congestive heart failure, was on dialysis and had severe vascular disease.  She died at home, in bed, after several months of deterioration after she and her doctor decided that she did not want to be hospitalized again.  When she died, my dad called 911, they called her doctor, the death certificate was signed by him and the coroner didn't need to do anything else.

When someone dies unexpectedly, either by trauma or by sudden illness; they wouldn't have a doctor providing ongoing care and the cause of death might not be clear; there may even be concerns about homicide or suicide.  In those cases, the ER doctor doesn't sign the death certificate, either, nor would the surgeon or attending physician unless they were hospitalized more than 24 hours and the doctor felt confident in the diagnosis.  After the death, the coroner would collect the facts on  the case; check any police statements, read the EMT reports, maybe talk to the ER doc or surgeon.  Sometimes, they will talk to witnesses or family members.  In the case of an older person with known risk factors for strokes or heart attacks and no one being suspicious of the cause of death; the coroner can decide not to do an 

Now we get to Sandy, a young, healthy woman who died of work related injuries; potentially due to a criminal act.  The coroner is going to do an autopsy on her and catalog all of her injuries and come to a conclusion about the cause of death and potentially need to provide evidence that will be examined in court if someone caused the fire.  However, she's been in the hospital.  She's had blood draws, CPR, been intubated.  All of those things can cause bruising, swelling, broken bones, broken teeth and other trauma.  The coroner needs to know what medical interventions were done and where so he or she can separate the effects of that from the trauma.  So, in order to make it easier for the coroner to know what has been done, all IV lines, catheters, endotracheal tubes are left in place.  They usually cut the ET tube at the lips, the IV with just an inch or two of tubing remaining , so the body is easier to transport; but they don't remove the tubes.  What if the ET tube was in her esophagus and not her trachea?  Then the fire is probably not the direct cause of her death.  What if, in placing the tube, some of her teeth were chipped, her tongue was abraded, her trachea was swollen?  They need to know that it was from the tube and not from being hit in the face with debris, etc.  If she had broken ribs and had received CPR, then it might not be possible to know if the ribs were broken when she was in the fire or afterwards.  And on, and on.  In real life, Kerry would know good and well why the tube needed to stay and wouldn't have asked and nobody would've allowed it, either.

My nephew drowned accidentally in a pool when he was 5.  We were allowed to see him in the trauma room afterwards.  The ET tube was cut at the lips and he had several IV catheters in his arms, taped to secure them.  We didn't think twice about it, it didn't matter.

Thanks ,I wasn’t thinking about other reasons than the obvious. I understand much more now. Makes me raise an eyebrow at Kovac cutting balloon so Sam wouldn’t get in trouble in rape victim. TV but still..

[Dr.OO7]

Sad news:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/ers-deezer-d-played-nurse-141148004.html

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Sad news:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/ers-deezer-d-played-nurse-141148004.html

Nice comment from Noah "I lost a dear friend yesterday. Deezer D, known to millions of ER fans as nurse, Malik McGrath, died yesterday morning. He was one of the most creative and charismatic men I’ve ever known and his gospel of positivity pulled us both up from many a dark place. I will miss him terribly. Please say a prayer for him and hold a loving thought for his family today."

Edited January 8, 2021 by debraran

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Sad news:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/ers-deezer-d-played-nurse-141148004.html

Oh, no!  😞 I liked Malik. May Deezer D rest in peace.

[jewel21]

I really liked him, too. R.I.P 😞

[PepSinger]

Goodness, that makes me really sad. It's sweet to see the cast members remember him even though it's been years since the show ended. He must have been a really nice guy and left a memorable impression. RIP 😢

[Growsonwalls]

13 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Goodness, that makes me really sad. It's sweet to see the cast members remember him even though it's been years since the show ended. He must have been a really nice guy and left a memorable impression. RIP 😢

Gloria Reuben also paid tribute to him. I think the ER cast had a reputation for being pretty tight. The Friends cast is the same way. Years later they still seem to like each other.

[Kel Varnsen]

Working my way through season 10 and just watched the episode where med-student Neela kills a guy after Carter tells her to be more assertive. It just seems so stupid. Not only does she change her entire personality after one brief conversation with Carter, but I am also supposed to believe that this is a teaching program but the first time anyone gives her any kind of feedback like that is near the end of the year while they are doing intern matching?

[debraran]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Working my way through season 10 and just watched the episode where med-student Neela kills a guy after Carter tells her to be more assertive. It just seems so stupid. Not only does she change her entire personality after one brief conversation with Carter, but I am also supposed to believe that this is a teaching program but the first time anyone gives her any kind of feedback like that is near the end of the year while they are doing intern matching?

Yes, it's hard to watch now, I use the ability to FF through a lot. Right now that is Abby's pregnancy (painful) and Kovac sending Pratt to Darfur as a punishment (who does that?) Also Dr Clemente is a bit much with his whole life being running from angry husband and having sex and using cocaine etc. I'm like "Where did the writers go?"  There are gems in between but yes Neela's actions would probably never be done by anyone. Working at a Cumberland Farm type of store, looking or work at an employment office where she isn't qualified for anything so back she goes to being a doctor. I liked her relationship with Ray and forgot how that all ends, but sadly remember Michael.

[Birdie]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Working my way through season 10 and just watched the episode where med-student Neela kills a guy after Carter tells her to be more assertive. It just seems so stupid. Not only does she change her entire personality after one brief conversation with Carter, but I am also supposed to believe that this is a teaching program but the first time anyone gives her any kind of feedback like that is near the end of the year while they are doing intern matching?

I don’t find it hard to believe Neela’s abrupt change in personality (at least for the one episode) especially when faced with the prospect of being ranked in the bottom and not being chosen to continue at County. I kinda saw Carter’s talk with her as lighting a fire beneath her ass.

But I agree about it being stupid the attendings waited that long to give feedback. If Carter, Lewis, Kovac, etc were good teachers/mentors, they would have noticed patterns and problems and been checking in with the students every so often. Even informally, like quick chats and catch-ups in the lounge or whatever.

On an unrelated note re: Deezer D - Malik is my favorite nurse. Honestly, I liked the “background” nurses a lot more than the mains (Abby, Sam, Carol).

[Broderbits]

I'm really annoyed by Sam's kid running all over the hospital like it's his personal playground. What hospital IRL would allow that? And Luka taking an x-ray just to amuse him - those things cost money, plus wouldn't each film be catalogued? Were the writers all just doing drugs at this point?

[CrazyInAlabama]

Neela eventually moved where Ray was (Louisiana maybe?), after Ray's accident, and then he came back to visit Chicago for some reason then their relationship started, and she moved with him.    But that was at the end of the show.    

There were some parts of ER that just weren't believable.   Like the number of family, and miscellaneous people who wandered through the treatment rooms, and stood right there during traumas.   

Edited January 15, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[Kel Varnsen]

23 hours ago, Birdie said:

don’t find it hard to believe Neela’s abrupt change in personality (at least for the one episode) especially when faced with the prospect of being ranked in the bottom and not being chosen to continue at County. I kinda saw Carter’s talk with her as lighting a fire beneath her ass.

But I agree about it being stupid the attendings waited that long to give feedback. If Carter, Lewis, Kovac, etc were good teachers/mentors, they would have noticed patterns and problems and been checking in with the students every so often. Even informally, like quick chats and catch-ups in the lounge or whatever.

I found her personality change to be pretty drastic to happen so quickly. But for tv I can kind of let it go. But to really think that this is the first time she has gotten any evaluation (either formal or informal) to say that she needed to be more assertive was hard to buy. Especially since she had more than 1 ER rotation. Then again it did point out that I have no idea why Neela wants to be an ER doc.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[Danny Franks]

On 1/14/2021 at 12:04 PM, Birdie said:

I don’t find it hard to believe Neela’s abrupt change in personality (at least for the one episode) especially when faced with the prospect of being ranked in the bottom and not being chosen to continue at County. I kinda saw Carter’s talk with her as lighting a fire beneath her ass.

But I agree about it being stupid the attendings waited that long to give feedback. If Carter, Lewis, Kovac, etc were good teachers/mentors, they would have noticed patterns and problems and been checking in with the students every so often. Even informally, like quick chats and catch-ups in the lounge or whatever.

The show actually did that in season 2 (I think) with Susan - They built up a storyline over a number of episodes that showed her struggling to stand up to alpha male types - Benton, Kayson, some other dickish surgeon - and it was discussed by Mark and Morgenstern when evaluating her work.

It didn't come out of nowhere, and it didn't result in Susan instantly changing who she was, because the writers back then realised that it's not easy to change your personality and overcome flaws that might impact on your professional life.

[doodlebug]

43 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

I'm really annoyed by Sam's kid running all over the hospital like it's his personal playground. What hospital IRL would allow that? And Luka taking an x-ray just to amuse him - those things cost money, plus wouldn't each film be catalogued? Were the writers all just doing drugs at this point?

Even back in that less security-minded time, any employee who brought their kid to work would be told to get the kid out of there pronto and threatened with disciplinary action.  Also, despite what you see on ER, ER docs do not take their own Xrays and Kovac wouldn't have known what button to push to turn the Xray machine on, let alone take a picture.  Also, there are X ray techs working all night long and they would be hanging out in the vicinity of any open room.  The rooms not in use would be locked and Luka wouldn't have access.  No X-ray tech is going to help him because using the machines for non-medical reasons would result in immediate termination.

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, doodlebug said:

No X-ray tech is going to help him because using the machines for non-medical reasons would result in immediate termination.

What is funny is that Luka gave the tech some bullshit line about how he would give him a chart or something so that it could be billed to the ER. Meanwhile in the episode I watched where Neela kills the guy and Gallant covers for her, Carter gives Gallant a big speech about how falsifying a chart is a felony. But isn't that exactly what Luka did?

[Birdie]

18 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The show actually did that in season 2 (I think) with Susan - They built up a storyline over a number of episodes that showed her struggling to stand up to alpha male types - Benton, Kayson, some other dickish surgeon - and it was discussed by Mark and Morgenstern when evaluating her work.

It didn't come out of nowhere, and it didn't result in Susan instantly changing who she was, because the writers back then realised that it's not easy to change your personality and overcome flaws that might impact on your professional life.

Right, which is why I could only see Neela changing (or striving to change) for that one shift. 

My freshman year of college was 2019-2020, and I went to a few of those mixer things (pre-COVID obv) telling myself to be gregarious and outgoing. And I was able to for the most part, but only for the duration of the mixers. I couldn’t sustain it (I wish I could but, alas, I am an introvert).

I wonder why the show changed writers so often? Did writers leave to work on other projects or were they booted off? Also, random side note, did one of the writers really like The Dixie Chicks or something? Because their music and several references to them are used. I agree with Carter though; not a fan of The Chicks music, lol.

[Birdie]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

What is funny is that Luka gave the tech some bullshit line about how he would give him a chart or something so that it could be billed to the ER. Meanwhile in the episode I watched where Neela kills the guy and Gallant covers for her, Carter gives Gallant a big speech about how falsifying a chart is a felony. But isn't that exactly what Luka did?

I would think so. And isn’t this the same Luka who came back from Africa all “we need to cut costs”, “we need to not do so many needless tests”, yada yada yada. Seems like an unnecessary skull X-ray to entertain some punkass kid would be costly. 🙄

[debraran]

8 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

What is funny is that Luka gave the tech some bullshit line about how he would give him a chart or something so that it could be billed to the ER. Meanwhile in the episode I watched where Neela kills the guy and Gallant covers for her, Carter gives Gallant a big speech about how falsifying a chart is a felony. But isn't that exactly what Luka did?

And when Pratt uses his blood for a friends DUI and falsely puts that down, Neela tells him to tell Kovac like he was the devil and poor Pratt ends up in Africa (wont go there) Of course Kovac can pop a balloon in someones airway so the autopsy is okay for Sam when she kills a rape victim sooner than she should have died by going rogue on her own.

Seeing the last shows of ER compared to the earlier, I see why Pratt wanted to die on the show , he said it wasn't relevant anymore. He had some bumps afterwards but it's hard to see your future, you have to go with your gut.

Edited January 16, 2021 by debraran

[doodlebug]

On 1/15/2021 at 11:18 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

What is funny is that Luka gave the tech some bullshit line about how he would give him a chart or something so that it could be billed to the ER. Meanwhile in the episode I watched where Neela kills the guy and Gallant covers for her, Carter gives Gallant a big speech about how falsifying a chart is a felony. But isn't that exactly what Luka did?

Yes, indeed it is.  Also, the Xray tech could be fired immediately for allowing a someone to be X-rayed who didn't even have a chart.  There are Emergency 'John Doe' type charts set up for dire emergencies when there isn't time to get a patient registered just so that every piece of lab work, every note written, every radiologic report can be linked together to that single patient.  And, of course, the ER doesn't have some sort of fund to pay for frivolous testing done by ER docs on a lark.  There are probably some funds available for supplies used to teach students how to draw blood or run an EKG; but that isn't what happened here.  Remember, too, that the hospital is a public hospital, owned by the citizens of Cook County and both Luka and the Xray tech are public employees.  What he did was theft, pure and simple, and would result in immediate termination.  A single shot X ray of an arm costs a couple hundred bucks.  It probably wasn't a felony, but it was theft.

Quote

And when Pratt uses his blood for a friends DUI and falsely puts that down, Neela tells him to tell Kovac

Not to mention when Pratt helped Chen euthanize her father and then signed the death certificate even though he wasn't Mr Chen's attending physician.  Those are definitely felonies and ground for suspension of his medical license if not permanent loss of it.

Edited January 17, 2021 by doodlebug

[ShortyMac]

Luka falsified a death certificate because Gates wanted him to in "Crisis of Conscience." He initially did not, then, changed his mind. He put 'liver failure of unknown origin,' instead of suicide by toxic ingestion, so, the woman's kids could get her insurance money after she screwed them over with gambling away everything. 

Carter falsified records for a diabetic kid because the dad's health insurance wouldn't kick in until a few months later. The kid came back, in a diabetic coma.

[debraran]

9 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

Luka falsified a death certificate because Gates wanted him to in "Crisis of Conscience." He initially did not, then, changed his mind. He put 'liver failure of unknown origin,' instead of suicide by toxic ingestion, so, the woman's kids could get her insurance money after she screwed them over with gambling away everything. 

Carter falsified records for a diabetic kid because the dad's health insurance wouldn't kick in until a few months later. The kid came back, in a diabetic coma.

I remember that with Carter, he was younger and really thought the guy would help his son. Of course Cleo was grating on everyone's nerves as his pedi supervisor but wrong is wrong. I forget who he talks to later when he is older and the doc does the same type of thing (was is Gallant?) and of course never thinks of what he did . Then it was ripping out a page but no one wants to talk about a crime or how close to being suspended they came. 

There was also a time with Carter I feel when he revived a patient and then he was a vegetable, Miracle Worker? The mom doesn't want to donate organs then because she feels he is returned to life.  Pratt does the same thing with a patient being arrogant but in Carter's anger nothing is ever said about himself or others who have done that.  (Dead Again episode I think) I'm not saying you have to tell all your mistakes  but with something like that, it might help to say you thought you could be God too.

Saw Jigsaw skipping around episodes yesterday while I was cooking and forgot about the multi personality patient Archie diagnoses. Normally I'd roll my eyes but the end with him discussing hot wheels with the child personality made me think that would have been Carter the first few years and it made me smile. (I skipped the stalking parts with Kovac)

Edited January 18, 2021 by debraran

[Kel Varnsen]

On season 11 now and I am really glad they wrapped up Weaver's custody battle with her in-laws because it makes no sense. Because between her crazy level of organization and what she has seen about how bureaucracy treats same sex couples (especially at her hospital), there is no way she would put off taking care of all the necessary paperwork for Henry. Otherwise she could never take him to doctor's appointments or make medical decisions when he was in the NICU. 

It would have worked better I think if she had done everything right and Sandy's parents still found a sympathetic judge to hear their case.

[readster]

1 minute ago, Kel Varnsen said:

On season 11 now and I am really glad they wrapped up Weaver's custody battle with her in-laws because it makes no sense. Because between her crazy level of organization and what she has seen about how bureaucracy treats same sex couples (especially at her hospital), there is no way she would put off taking care of all the necessary paperwork for Henry. Otherwise she could never take him to doctor's appointments or make medical decisions when he was in the NICU. 

It would have worked better I think if she had done everything right and Sandy's parents still found a sympathetic judge to hear their case.

Oh the entire storyline was BS, it was just to get Lauren Innes off the show. I mean it was just so poorly done from the parents/one brother with: "We're his family, not you!" Bullshit to even how Kerry "never got around to it". I mean please. 

[Dr.OO7]

4 hours ago, readster said:

Oh the entire storyline was BS, it was just to get Lauren Innes off the show. I mean it was just so poorly done from the parents/one brother with: "We're his family, not you!" Bullshit to even how Kerry "never got around to it". I mean please. 

It was BS, but that wasn't her final storyline.

The whole thing read like a bad Lifetime movie. In fact, I'm sure that there WAS a Lifetime movie with this plot.

As far as someone as insanely organized as Kerry not having taken care of the necessary paperwork, I was under the impression that they were in the process of it, but nothing was finalized as yet.

[debraran]

Yes, Kerry would know and counseled gay couples about that when the mean family members wouldn't let the partner on the show, give any feedback since paperwork wasn't filed. It didn't matter if they never saw them often. Then she moves to Florida to be on TV (after girlfriend helps get her news exposure) and Henry probably wont see grandparents often. I wondered in real life how that would work. She also loses a free babysitter.  Laura didn't want to die on show like many of them (4?) or get hit by a truck or lose a limb. That was one dangerous ER. Doug and Benton had the right idea!

I watched quickly Abby's decline last night and drinking while alone with Joe and he got hurt with sitter. The stress was too much which I found maybe realistic but not. She leaves her baby all hours with young sitter, she drinks in front of coworkers (no one knew?) She has a mentor who's a doctor and she knows she is drinking and she doesn't say anything? I know there is privacy with that, but I know doctors that privately told superiors about doctors they knew were drunk or impaired. She takes Joe without food or car seat to airport and argues with them about ticket to Croatia. I think they played the same crying loop for 15 minutes! I'll FF through this and see what's ahead. I know there are some hidden gems. My regular shows are off this week or haven't returned yet but ER like a few others is like a worn but loved glove. I agree with the actor who played Pratt though, he saw the changes and thought he should leave. I also thought Stanley Tucci was sadly underused.

I still don't know why Green dying caused such a change, lot more sex, more corny shows, more unbelievable plots with Gates and Sarah, everyone loving Neela (my daughter found that hysterical) no fault of the actress and other bizarre things.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by debraran

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

As far as someone as insanely organized as Kerry not having taken care of the necessary paperwork, I was under the impression that they were in the process of it, but nothing was finalized as yet.

I think like @readster said there was a line about how they hadn't gotten around to doing the adoption yet. But I find that hard to buy for Weaver based on her personality. Plus, and I'm no lawyer, even if adoption was a long drawn out process she probably could have just had Sandy change her will to give Kerry custody of the baby in the event that she died. And considering how many times Sandy and her crew ended up in the ER that would have been smart.

Also kind of annoyed with the Neela storyline so far. Ok she doesn't want to be a doctor but again I have no idea why she chose dermatologist for her specialty. Plus they keep talking about how you have to complete your intern year to get your license. But can you actually do anything after having just that inter year?

[doodlebug]

13 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think like @readster said there was a line about how they hadn't gotten around to doing the adoption yet. But I find that hard to buy for Weaver based on her personality. Plus, and I'm no lawyer, even if adoption was a long drawn out process she probably could have just had Sandy change her will to give Kerry custody of the baby in the event that she died. And considering how many times Sandy and her crew ended up in the ER that would have been smart.

Also kind of annoyed with the Neela storyline so far. Ok she doesn't want to be a doctor but again I have no idea why she chose dermatologist for her specialty. Plus they keep talking about how you have to complete your intern year to get your license. But can you actually do anything after having just that inter year?

Henry was a planned pregnancy, conceived with donor sperm.  Kerry is super detail-oriented crossing the t's and dotting the i's.  It makes absolutely no sense at all that they wouldn't have consulted a lawyer and had paperwork giving Kerry guardianship in case something happened to Sandy.  She was a firefighter, a job with significant risks. Pregnancy is not without risk, either.  There is no way that they wouldn't have gotten everything together before the baby was born.

If I recall correctly, back at the time that episode was filmed, same sex couples were not allowed to adopt a partner's child.  Kerry and Sandy were unable to be legally married, either at that time.  That means that Sandy, as the only legal parent, needed to make sure that Kerry would be the legal parent if anything happened to her.  

With just an internship, a doctor cannot get privileges to practice in a hospital.  Hospital privileges require finishing a residency in a specialty and being board eligible or certified.  I've known a couple of people who for logistical reasons (waiting for a partner to finish their schooling), did an internship and then held off on starting a residency.  They were able to find work at Urgent Care centers which actually paid pretty well under the circumstances.

Quote

I watched quickly Abby's decline last night and drinking while alone with Joe and he got hurt with sitter. The stress was too much which I found maybe realistic but not. She leaves her baby all hours with young sitter, she drinks in front of coworkers (no one knew?) She has a mentor who's a doctor and she knows she is drinking and she doesn't say anything? I know there is privacy with that, but I know doctors that privately told superiors about doctors they knew were drunk or impaired. She takes Joe without food or car seat to airport and argues with them about ticket to Croatia. I think they played the same crying loop for 15 minutes! I'll FF through this and see what's ahead. I know there are some hidden gems. My regular shows are off this week or haven't returned yet but ER like a few others is like a worn but loved glove. I agree with the actor who played Pratt though, he saw the changes and thought he should leave. I also thought Stanley Tucci was sadly underused.

Dr Coburn, as Abby's AA sponsor, was not able to out her as an alcoholic to anyone.  However, if she had any reason to suspect that Abby was drinking on the job; she would've been obligated to report that to the state medical board.  AA doesn't expect members to keep quiet when lives are at stake. Abby seemingly had minimal consequences considering her behavior.  She was drinking at work and clearly impaired.  Aside from being obligated to go to rehab, which she did; that should've been reported to the state medical board which would've suspended her license pending treatment and assessment.  A hearing would be held.  The typical suspension for a first time practicing medicine while impaired is 6 months.  When her suspension is ready to end, there would be a hearing which she would attend with her attorney and witnesses like her rehab counsellor, psychiatrist, etc.  There would also be testimony from those who investigated her drinking on the job, etc.  Then, there is a panel on the medical board who would come together and vote as to whether to restore her license.  She would probably be required to report to the board at intervals with proof of sobriety like AA chips as well as written documentation from her supervisors at work that she was doing well.  If she falls off the wagon, it's back to square one.  Usually by the third time, permanent removal of her medical license would be considered.

[Heathen]

15 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think like @readster said there was a line about how they hadn't gotten around to doing the adoption yet. But I find that hard to buy for Weaver based on her personality. Plus, and I'm no lawyer, even if adoption was a long drawn out process she probably could have just had Sandy change her will to give Kerry custody of the baby in the event that she died. And considering how many times Sandy and her crew ended up in the ER that would have been smart.

Also kind of annoyed with the Neela storyline so far. Ok she doesn't want to be a doctor but again I have no idea why she chose dermatologist for her specialty. Plus they keep talking about how you have to complete your intern year to get your license. But can you actually do anything after having just that inter year?

When her parents came to Chicago to force take her back to Ann Arbor, I think her father (always Mr. Bhamra to me) said something about dermatology being a lucrative field. They expected her to help her siblings through school since the family had sacrificed to send Neela to college and medical school. 

[Kel Varnsen]

13 minutes ago, Heathen said:

When her parents came to Chicago to force take her back to Ann Arbor, I think her father (always Mr. Bhamra to me) said something about dermatology being a lucrative field. They expected her to help her siblings through school since the family had sacrificed to send Neela to college and medical school. 

Yea he said that and I get that there were expectations they had of her. But at the same time, aren't there a of medical fields that are considered lucrative? Especially in the US? Why dermatology vs any other medical specialty?

[Heathen]

45 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Yea he said that and I get that there were expectations they had of her. But at the same time, aren't there a of medical fields that are considered lucrative? Especially in the US? Why dermatology vs any other medical specialty?

Who knows? Her internship was to be in internal medicine leading to dermatology. Maybe her parents thought it would be enough of an intellectual challenge, while also being lucrative but allowing time to have a family. Maybe they picked dermatology at random and thought she'd pick something else like nephrology during her internship. Maybe ER already sucked at that point, and the writer who wrote that episode had just returned from getting his acne treated at the dermatologist's office! 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

Maybe ER already sucked at that point, and the writer who wrote that episode had just returned from getting his acne treated at the dermatologist's office! 

Seems like a likely reason. Because really if Neela's family was concerned about having money to send the rest of the kids to school, wouldn't sending Neela to med school in the UK be an obvious way to save cash. Because I don't know what universities in the US are like but in Canada they really stick it to international students and tuition is like 3 times what it is for citizens.

[Heathen]

3 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Seems like a likely reason. Because really if Neela's family was concerned about having money to send the rest of the kids to school, wouldn't sending Neela to med school in the UK be an obvious way to save cash. Because I don't know what universities in the US are like but in Canada they really stick it to international students and tuition is like 3 times what it is for citizens.

I'm not sure if it's three times the rate for citizens in the US, but International students pay full tuition price. No loans, no grants, none of that. One of my professors in undergrad made a point of saying that's why our university had a very large international student body. 

I think ER stopped being good, at the very latest, at the end of season seven, with the exception of certain episodes. By the time Neela and Ray and Morris arrived, it was a joke. Not even mentioning Super Doc Abby. 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

I'm not sure if it's three times the rate for citizens in the US, but International students pay full tuition price. No loans, no grants, none of that. One of my professors in undergrad made a point of saying that's why our university had a very large international student body. 

Some googling tells me that even forgetting about international students, US medical school tuition for US residents is significantly higher than what UK residents would pay to go to a UK school. So do we ever find out why Neela studied in the US.

I am also curious if Neela would even be able to stay in the US. I mean she would have been in Chicago on a student visa right. I would think those expire when you are no longer a student.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think the dermatology specialty was a smart move.   Where I go for my annual skin checks has one dermatologist, plus a med spa (they do all kinds of treatments, fillers, etc.), and skin care regimens.   Then most of the dermatology work is done by physician's assistants, and a multitude of office, and medical assistants, plus the spa staff.    The only part the dermatologist does is surgery, and some plastic surgery and filler injections.    No emergencies, open Monday through Friday, and nothing like the schedule for nephrology, and other specialties.      With the spa part added, I'm sure the profits are immense.    So, it would cost more to send Neela through medical school in the U.S., but being part of a large dermatology practice would have been very profitable.   

I wondered about the visa for Neela, but couldn't find any mention of it.  Maybe it's another fact that the writers just didn't think about.    I wonder if she applied for a permanent visa when she was married to Gallant?   

Edited January 28, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[Heathen]

19 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Some googling tells me that even forgetting about international students, US medical school tuition for US residents is significantly higher than what UK residents would pay to go to a UK school. So do we ever find out why Neela studied in the US.

I am also curious if Neela would even be able to stay in the US. I mean she would have been in Chicago on a student visa right. I would think those expire when you are no longer a student.

But remember, this is in ER world. 

[PepSinger]

My best friend is in her third year of medical school. I remember the last time we talked about school, she wanted to be a dermatologist, and a large part of that had to do with the money. Plus, she was lucky to work as a MA in a dermatologist's office during college and then while getting her masters. 

[debraran]

Although I saw some large medicare fraud cases with doctors and dermatologists, working as one can be lucrative in the right areas. I knew a guy who left the north to go to Florida and did very well. Lots of skin cancers and older population. His friends who wanted to do less work and stay where they did residency, still made a good living but the more procedures you added, the more money would come in. Of course insurance is more and you need more staff, but its a trade off. I thought at the time, they chose derm on ER because it was not considered as exciting and boring to many. I remember a resident saying if he had to look at rashes and moles all day he'd go nuts but for many, the traumas and  surgery weren't for them and the hours were much better.

I saw Jeanne again last night when Carlos was brought in and I almost teared up seeing an old friend. : ). Everyone was pretty much gone but Haleh and  Chuny  caught her up.  That's when Doug and Carol's twins were brought up (3rd grade) and she mentioned Carter visiting soon and Kerry left.

Edited January 28, 2021 by debraran

[doodlebug]

14 hours ago, Heathen said:

I'm not sure if it's three times the rate for citizens in the US, but International students pay full tuition price. No loans, no grants, none of that. One of my professors in undergrad made a point of saying that's why our university had a very large international student body. 

I think ER stopped being good, at the very latest, at the end of season seven, with the exception of certain episodes. By the time Neela and Ray and Morris arrived, it was a joke. Not even mentioning Super Doc Abby. 

US medical schools require all applicants to be US citizens. Or, at least, that was the case back when I was applying.  I had a friend in undergrad who was Canadian; he moved to the US at age 10 when his father took a job here.  He was a permanent resident with a green card, but had never gotten around to getting citizenship.  He had to apply and be naturalized so he could get into a US med school.  I remember this because I was one of his witnesses.  I had to go to court and get sworn in and attest that I'd never seen him break a law (other than minor traffic laws), that he was genuine in his desire for citizenship  and that he wasn't planning to overthrow the US government.  I must've answered the questions correctly because he got citizenship.  He also got into med school and continues to live in the US.

The whole story with Neela's parents was just ridiculous, IMO.  Certainly, there is cultural pressure for Asian Indian kids to do well in school and aim for major careers; but, as far as expecting Neela to put her siblings through school; even if she did dermatology, it would be 3-4 years before she'd be out in practice and making enough money to help out anyway.  And, yes, if Neela still had British citizenship, she should've gone to the UK where undergrad and med school are combined into a 6 year program and the schooling is government funded.  The training in the UK is completely different in the US, but the medical system is excellent.  Of course, graduates of UK med schools couldn't come to the US and practice without completing a residency in a US hospital.  Even if Neela was trained in the UK in the best dermatology residency there and went out and practiced for a decade as a top dermatologist; she'd have to repeat the residency if she wanted to practice in the US.  The only country where a residency would be accepted for US practice is Canada.  We sorta saw that on ER when Elizabeth had to do an internship.  In real life, she'd have had to do an entire 5 year general surgical residency which is why docs who've completed training in the UK rarely emigrate here.

Edited January 28, 2021 by doodlebug

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, PepSinger said:

My best friend is in her third year of medical school. I remember the last time we talked about school, she wanted to be a dermatologist, and a large part of that had to do with the money. Plus, she was lucky to work as a MA in a dermatologist's office during college and then while getting her masters. 

Derm is also very much a 9-5 specialty.  Very few emergencies, no nights, no weekends, no holidays.  Most dermatologists won't even come to the hospital to do a consultation.  There are quite a few cosmetic procedures done by dermatologists these days that pay very, very well.

It is very well paid and the hours are very reasonable; since it doesn't require much work outside of regular business hours. Many dermatologists just refer all their patients to the ER or Urgent Care for problems in the off-hours.

Edited January 28, 2021 by doodlebug

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

The whole story with Neela's parents was just ridiculous, IMO.  Certainly, there is cultural pressure for Asian Indian kids to do well in school and aim for major careers; but, as far as expecting Neela to put her siblings through school; even if she did dermatology, it would be 3-4 years before she'd be out in practice and making enough money to help out anyway.  And, yes, if Neela still had British citizenship, she should've gone to the UK where undergrad and med school are combined into a 6 year program and the schooling is government funded.  The training in the UK is completely different in the US, but the medical system is excellent. 

Watched episodes 3 and 4 of season 11 and more Neela stupidity. She can't find a job and is basically told the only thing she is qualified for is entry level work at the convenience store by the hospital. Yet the employment placement Lady says she has an undergraduate degree from Yale. Which seems odd to me that even if she wanted to dump medicine an undergrad science degree from Yale shouldn't be totally worthless. It's just the whole can't find a job storyline was dumb, like sitcom dumb. Actually like bad sitcom dumb because I can't remember if Scrubs did a story like that but if they did it would have been way better.

Plus as far as her parents not having money for the other kids, I looked it up and a degree from Yale for a US citizen costs about 4 times what a degree from Cambridge costs for a UK citizen. So assuming the ratio was the same back in the 90s her parents could have sent 4 kids to school just in what they spent on Neela going to Yale, not counting relocation costs. And it is not like Cambridge is some no name loser school.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Kel Varnsen