Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[ShadowFacts]

 

It does make you wonder how many real-world couples might achieve magical True Love if they lived in a world with magic. But I do think that what Snow and Charming overcame was a bit beyond the kind of obstacles you might face in normal life. His quasi-adoptive father was literally threatening to kill him to keep her away from him, which goes above and beyond the normal kind of disapproving parents. She took a magic potion to keep herself from remembering him, and he restored her memories by being willing to die to keep her from destroying herself while under the influence of the potion. She ate the poison apple because she believed doing so would keep him safe. How many "normal" couples have risked death for each other that many times?

 

In the community of people who comment in forums, probably not many normal couples risk death repeatedly for each other, that's the province of fiction.  But around the world, it is not that uncommon for people to risk death, and sometimes die, to be with a person forbidden to them by parents/religion.  I seem to read about it every so often without even searching it out.  The power of love can be very strong.  The most powerful magic?  Sometimes even fatal.

[myril]

Soulmate pretty much comes from the Greek mythology, that humans once where beings with two heads, four arms and legs, but the gods split them up. The two halves though suffered and died a painful death, something the gods didn't wanted either, they fancied the tributes humans paid them. So they made the split bodies so that they could survive on their own, but they always longed for the other half. When these soulmates find each other, there is a deep and unspoken understanding between them, they will feel unified again and enjoy that as well physically with each other.

 

Our modern idea of (one) true love, probably influenced by rediscovering the heroic world of medieval sagas and Minnelied by romanticism, is a mix of that idea and another Greek idea, the idea of a love transcending our physical existence (divine eros, which though never leads to marriage, it's closer to what is known as Platonic love nowadays). Could say: soulmates are kinda meant to marry, while true love is something not necessarily limited to romantic relationships. The funny thing is, that somehow the terms commonly are used the other way around, soulmate for even non-romantic relationship while true love has become a quality or high form of romance.

 

I highly doubt that the show works with the concept of ONE true love, although they stay ambiguous about it, it's never quite clear. But sure parts of the audience, maybe the bigger part, understand true love as something one can only experience once in a lifetime. I never understood that thought though, because would find that life is a rather sad and loveless place if we can have only one true love in our lives, and even more so if that is even considered something people have a hard time finding. Well, we're spread on the planet, some coincidence if my true love lives in the neighborhood or crosses my way in some other place at the right time. Any mathematician around to calculate the chance?

 

Think it was E. Kitsis who was once quoted in an interview with calling Rumple and Cora soulmates, which though wasn't taken well by people, and A. Horowitz later paddled back. I wouldn't bet on them making a difference between soulmate and true love, but of course using different terms always keeps the door open to insist on a difference if need be.

 

My more sarcastic take if looking at what so far has been shown on the show: Soulmate is the special bonding fate puts you in, if you earned it or not. True love is the special feeling you have because you bonded strongly and work on keeping that connection, you have to earn it.

Edited July 22, 2014 by katusch

[stealinghome]

I highly doubt that the show works with the concept of ONE true love, although they stay ambiguous about it, it's never quite clear. But sure parts of the audience, maybe the bigger part, understand true love as something one can only experience once in a lifetime.

I think initially they did. I seem to recall that after 'Stable Boy' aired, Lana Parrilla gave an interview where she said that yeah, in the Enchanted Forest people only get one True Love, and that's why Regina was so angry at Snow--because she thought/knew/believed that she could never have True Love again once Daniel died.

But they've retconned 99% of the show since then, so I wouldn't be surprised if they've also moved away from the idea of one True Love as well. Especially if it's in service of Regina.

[Mari]

Soulmate pretty much comes from the Greek mythology, that humans once where beings with two heads, four arms and legs, but the gods split them up. The two halves though suffered and died a painful death, something the gods didn't wanted either, they fancied the tributes humans paid them. So they made the split bodies so that they could survive on their own, but they always longed for the other half. When these soulmates find each other, there is a deep and unspoken understanding between them, they will feel unified again and enjoy that as well physically with each other.

Could this explain Regina's nearly complete inability to feel guilt or recognize others' pain?  Maybe Robin got the half of their soul that includes empathy/sympathy/conscience.

[kili]

But they've retconned 99% of the show since then, so I wouldn't be surprised if they've also moved away from the idea of one True Love as well. Especially if it's in service of Regina.

 

They don't necessarily have to ret-con the number of True Love's that one has. One just has to have Regina admit that Daniel wasn't her True Love, she just honestly believed that he was. 

 

There is no proof that he was (no curse's being broken or realms transcended), so it's not much of a ret-con. They can have Regina say that she now knows that he wasn't her TL, that it just felt like that because of her horrible, loveless  life (which we can now blame on Eva because she is ultimately why Cora had to rip her own heart out - Eva: Root of all Evil) and her desier to escape her mother, she just clung to the only hope of love/escape which Snow (the Tree of all Evil) destroyed.

 

ETA:

Maybe Robin got the half of their soul that includes empathy/sympathy/conscience.

 

Maybe if he didn't dismiss killing villages, hunting down her own step-daughter and the sending of children to slaughter as "Bold and Audacious", I might believe he has empathy and a consience. As it is, he's just as bad as her.

Edited July 22, 2014 by kili

[Rumsy4]

I am really very worried that we're going to see something with Roland being more responsive and attached to Regina than to Marian, because with this show's logic Regina will be the "mother he knows" vs. Marian being "the mother he doesn't remember."  

 

From the spoiler thread. I've already seen some comments of this nature on tumblr, and I can totally see the writers going for this. If they had actually had Regina bond with Roland in a meaningful way in the Lost Year, and had had Henry interact with Roland , this would have been a good set-up. I wonder how Robin is going to react to any of this. "Honey--Regina save our son from a Flying Money, and now thinks of her as his step-mother. But don't worry--she is not evil, just bold and audacious!" 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Rumsy4

[kili]

I am really very worried that we're going to see something with Roland being more responsive and attached to Regina than to Marian, because with this show's logic Regina will be the "mother he knows" vs. Marian being "the mother he doesn't remember."

 

But they've only been dating for a couple of days! Give Marian a couple of days and she will be on the same footing.  #TeamMarian

[Guest]

But they've only been dating for a couple of days! Give Marian a couple of days and she will be on the same footing.  #TeamMarian

 

The writing on this show makes deciphering relationships hard.  I tend to think that they will go the route of its traumatic for Roland to understand why Regina can't be part of their family anymore and that will be enough to keep Robin torn and ultimately reunite Robin/Regina.

 

But I think its also possible that they are looking for an excuse for Regina to return to her old ways.  This Marian thing fits a very distinct pattern for a Regina relapse to Evil right down to Emma (like her Mother) being "responsible".  Its hard to understand why they would short change the relationship build for Regina/Robin and make Regina come thisclose to killing Marian if they intended the relationship to have any kind of staying power on the show.

 

Part of me thinks that Robin goes poof by 4B.

[KingOfHearts]

Thing is...

 

Marian is not a new character. She is a plot device, and that's all she'll ever be. The writers do not want to give Robin and her a happy ending - they have no good intentions for Robin or Marian. These two characters' only purpose is to be pawns in Regina's story. Just by their writing, I can tell they have no real emotions or free will. They are robots designed to do whatever A&E want in order to play out Regina's redemption story. That is why them just going off into Happy Ever After just isn't happening. Something crazy is going to go down.

 

It might not be Regina going evil, but either Marian is going to die/be evil or Robin is going to choose Regina. I suspect major drama either way. A&E are excited because they've launched a very big controversy. Prepare for a bumpy ride. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Marian is not a new character. She is a plot device, and that's all she'll ever be. ...A&E are excited because they've launched a very big controversy. Prepare for a bumpy ride. 

 

Word, KingOfHearts! Marian is Neal 2.0. And A&E's modus operandi to get people interested in watching the Show is by fueling ship wars--a far cry from what the Show was in Season 1. I simple can't see it ending well for Marian, given the history of First Loves in the Show (Daniel, Milah, Neal). Snowing is the only main couple who is the exceptions to this rule.

[YaddaYadda]

The only difference between Neal and Marian is that no one claimed that Neal and Emma were true loves (I'm starting to really hate that whole notion of true love and TLK anyway).  Marian and Robin are pretty much a whole story of their own.  And they went through a lot to be together.

 

And when they decided to put Emma with someone, it was someone who had no romantic past that was canon.  Hook's sheet as far as the actual character goes (not the OUaT character) didn't have a love of his life as far as I know, so that allows OUaT the freedom to do whatever they choose with him.

 

Robin on the other hand?  Not so much.  Yes, they killed off Neal which I think was stupid to do since he was a pretty important character and central to the show, not sure they did it to clear the way for Hook/Emma though.  I don't think they knew what to do with him.

 

But Marian was presumed dead and they should have kept her dead if they wanted to do something with OQ.  As it stands, I'm nowhere near that bandwagon and I'm even further now.  At the end of the day, I think they should've put Regina with someone who wasn't Robin or whose love was truly, really gone!!

Edited July 23, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[NotBothered]

It might not be Regina going evil, but either Marian is going to die/be evil or Robin is going to choose Regina. I suspect major drama either way. A&E are excited because they've launched a very big controversy. Prepare for a bumpy ride. 

I'm finding it very hard to be interested in OutlawQueen anymore, because it's clear to everyone that Marian is going to be gone by the end of season (and quite likely by the end of 4A).   The return of Marian has made that entire plot much feel much more contrived and lacking real development.   I think the only real question here is whether Robin goes with her.  I'm also leaning towards him being gone for one reason or another by the end of 4B.  

 

 

But they've only been dating for a couple of days! Give Marian a couple of days and she will be on the same footing.  #TeamMarian

He does in theory have memories from the lost year.  I think it's likely that the writers claim that had more interaction that year than we've seen so far.  

[patchwork]

 

But Marian was presumed dead and they should have kept her dead if they wanted to do something with OQ.  As it stands, I'm nowhere near that bandwagon and I'm even further now.  At the end of the day, I think they should've put Regina with someone who wasn't Robin or whose love was truly, really gone!!

 

Hook is a good example of a LI that would have worked for Regina, she needs someone with a villainous past and a story of their own so they're more than her cheerleader, or a prop in the Woeregina Saga .

 

I have an idea! Forget this badly written OQ nonsense I vote Hans for Regina's new/actual true love. 

 

I've always preferred the non-romance version of soulmates anyway, it's love and they're the person who understands you best but it doesn't have to be romantic love. 

[ShadowFacts]

I can't see how Robin could be written so that he would choose Regina over Marian.  He just finished telling Regina he would have marched through hell for Marian.  Now he will find out what really happened to Marian, which he did not know when he started getting cozy with Regina.   Even if Marian dies somehow that has nothing directly to do with Regina, she won't want to be a consolation prize, or Robin will be too grief-stricken, but Regina and Robin and a happy ending will take the juice out of Regina.  She loses Robin and then has the choice to repeat what she did with Daniel and the Snow-blaming, or blame the person who really caused it all--herself.  And P.S. how in the world could Regina, who now has the purest true love for her son, ever begin to forgive herself for having taken her boyfriend's child's mother away from him?  Will she even think about that for a moment?

[Dani-Ellie]

And P.S. how in the world could Regina, who now has the purest true love for her son, ever begin to forgive herself for having taken her boyfriend's child's mother away from him?  Will she even think about that for a moment?

 

On any other show, yes. With this one, which has its head so far up Regina's ass that it can't see the forest for the trees, who knows?

[angelwoody]

Well, looking at this strictly from the point of view of the writers, I can't see Robin and Regina working long term.  Yes, the writers like to give Regina everything she wants or at least let her be heartbroken when she doesn't get exactly what she wants (regardless of whether she deserves it or not); BUT her character would get boring for them pretty fast if she ever became truly happy and satisfied with her life.

 

No angst, no anger, no revenge plots or people to vanquish and suddenly Regina is kind of lame - from a writing point of view.  It is for this reason that I can't see the Robin and Regina pairing being anything than a device with which to manufacture more villainous drama for Regina.

Edited July 23, 2014 by angelwoody

[Crimson Belle]

 

I can't see how Robin could be written so that he would choose Regina over Marian.

He already is being written that way.  Anybody who considers mass murder and genocide to be "bold and audacious"  is pretty much entirely lacking in character and morality.

[RadioGirl27]

The sad thing is that this Marian situation could be great for Regina and her redemption, if done right. It's a way for Regina to face the consequences of her acts, feel real remorse and grow up as a person. Later, maybe season 5, she can find a new love. Instead, we would get lots of crying and Emma blaming.

[kili]

I have an idea! Forget this badly written OQ nonsense I vote Hans for Regina's new/actual true love.

 

I'd ship it.

 

I'm all for getting away from the oogy situation they set up with Regina being Marian's executioner and Robin's "Bold and Audacious" nonsense (no, I did not think that was sexy in case you are wondering, Adam and Eddie).

 

The sad thing is that this Marian situation could be great for Regina and her redemption, if done right. It's a way for Regina to face the consequences of her acts, feel real remorse and grow up as a person.

 

Yes! Yes! Yes!

[ShadowFacts]

 

He already is being written that way.  Anybody who considers mass murder and genocide to be "bold and audacious"  is pretty much entirely lacking in character and morality.

 

Excellent point.  That line was cringeworthy, and equally appalling was him going along with Neal's plan to make Roland bait for the Shadow.  He is a bit lacking in discernment.  But so far I don't think he knows of the direct connection between Regina's audacity and Marian's disappearance.  Maybe he will be the Belle to Regina's Rumple, but that would be a retread relationship.  Oh, what am I saying, this is retread city.

[stealinghome]

He does in theory have memories from the lost year.  I think it's likely that the writers claim that had more interaction that year than we've seen so far.

Which will make me side-eye even more the notion that Regina and Robin couldn't stand each other for the entire year in the Enchanted Forest yet are getting it on like bunnies after a week in Storybrooke.

 

Hook is a good example of a LI that would have worked for Regina, she needs someone with a villainous past and a story of their own so they're more than her cheerleader, or a prop in the Woeregina Saga .

Agreed. I know that people really ship Captain Swan, but I actually kind of think that Hook/Regina and Emma/Original Robin Hood would have been better matches. Robin Hood theoretically should be a light gray character (though I don't see any gray at all in Maguire's Robin Hood) in a way that goes well with Emma, whereas Hook and Regina are on more equal footing in terms of strength of personality and evil they have to atone for.

 

The sad thing is that this Marian situation could be great for Regina and her redemption, if done right. It's a way for Regina to face the consequences of her acts, feel real remorse and grow up as a person. Later, maybe season 5, she can find a new love. Instead, we would get lots of crying and Emma blaming.

This! And this is what is so frustrating about this show, because even as much of a clusterfuck as it has become? It still excels at setting up interesting, character-growth-inducing, meaty situations. But it just inevitably, completely, utterly, always screws the pooch on the execution.

[Serena]

Agreed. I know that people really ship Captain Swan, but I actually kind of think that Hook/Regina and Emma/Original Robin Hood would have been better matches. Robin Hood theoretically should be a light gray character (though I don't see any gray at all in Maguire's Robin Hood) in a way that goes well with Emma, whereas Hook and Regina are on more equal footing in terms of strength of personality and evil they have to atone for.

Honestly, "Hook in love" like he's been written would have been even worse than Robin Hood, if they'd chosen to pair him with Regina. As soon as he fell in love with Emma (and actually, even before sometimes) he's constantly been like "OMG Emma! You're so awesome! Isn't Emma the awesomest person in the world? She is so flawless." now, that's a lot less cringeworthy than Robin Hood's "bold and audacious" nonsense because... it's actually true, but just imagine if his Emma-worship had been focused on Regina instead. I would want to smash his head every time he opened his mouth.

On the other hand, he seems slightly more aware of Emma's faults than Robin is of Regina's. On the other, other hand, being in love with a woman even though you're aware she's kind of emotionally unavailable is one thing; being in love with a woman when you're aware she's a crazy mass murderer is another.

 

I don't even know.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Serena

[angelwoody]

Honestly, "Hook in love" like he's been written would have been even worse than Robin Hood, if they'd chosen to pair him with Regina. As soon as he fell in love with Emma (and actually, even before sometimes) he's constantly been like "OMG Emma! You're so awesome! Isn't Emma the awesomest person in the world? She is so flawless." now, that's a lot less cringeworthy than Robin Hood's "bold and audacious" nonsense because... it's actually true, but just imagine if his Emma-worship had been focused on Regina instead. I would want to smash his head every time he opened his mouth.

On the other hand, he seems slightly more aware of Emma's faults than Robin is of Regina's. On the other, other hand, being in love with a woman even though you're aware she's kind of emotionally unavailable is one thing; being in love with a woman when you're aware she's a crazy mass murderer is another.

 

I don't even know.

Totally agree with this.  Hook's Emma worship is acceptable to me because, well, I kind of worship her a little!  She's amazing (one might say bold and audacious) and moral and ethical while still being real, flawed and funny.  

 

If Hook had been all hearts and puppies head over heels in the same way with Regina, I would have been seriously ill.  Also, Hook would be dead because there is no way Regina would have risked losing her power to the kiss curse, lol!

[Rumsy4]

I don't think two villains, even ones on different stages of reformation, would fit together. Rumple and Cora were the ultimate evil OTP. I can't see Regina and Hook challenging each other to be better versions of themselves. Regina was always way too dismissive of Hook (typical of her), and Hook was never able to reach Regina, even the one time he tried telling her that their constant pursuit of vengeance had got them nothing. 

 

OUAT's Robin Hood is so bland, I just can't even imagine him with Emma! 

[Camera One]

If Hook had fallen for Regina, the dynamics would have been completely different from Hook/Emma.  Hook and Regina do have a lot more in common, and would be struggling with a lot of the same feelings.  Unlike Robin Hood, Hook would be old hat around mass-murderers considering his prior association with Cora, and even would-be mass murderers like Tamara and Greg.

 

Regina and Hook challenging each other to be better versions of themselves.

 

I think it could work, but I do think it would be a whole lot harder to write.  It is actually so much easier to do the Bad-Guy-Changes-for-Good-Guy trope.  I know Emma and Hook is supposed to transcend that, but at the core, the arc was pretty much following a tried and true type pattern.  
 

OUAT's Robin Hood is so bland, I just can't even imagine him with Emma!

 

I do agree with that, but he's also so bland that he doesn't work well with Regina either.  A better-casted Robin Hood with a more interesting backstory would have been a great match for Emma, given he has a little more greyness, as @stealinghome suggested.

[Serena]

I do agree with that, but he's also so bland that he doesn't work well with Regina either.  A better-casted Robin Hood with a more interesting backstory would have been a great match for Emma, given he has a little more greyness, as @stealinghome suggested.

Because the writers just weren't interested in developing him as his own character. Whatever people think of CS and Hook himself, and the focus his love for Emma has had on his character arc, it seems clear to me that the writers are interested in him as his own character, as well as a love interest for Emma. With Robin, their only interest is in creating angst for Regina with the "Marian's back" reveal. To do that, Robin didn't need to be an interesting character in his own... it was actually perfect for him to be a bland "insert Regina's affections here" placeholder because if he had been his own person, people would look at it also from his point of view (my girlfriend murdered my wife!) instead of only from a "OMG Regina is so sad!" POV). Basically, he's Belle, and Marian is the dagger lie.

[KingOfHearts]

I do like the idea of Regina caring about Roland in this situation. I wish they would have showed more of her relationship with him, similarly to her relationship with Henry. In the Missing Year, Regina lost Henry, so it would have made sense for her to see Roland as another reason to go for Robin. That sort of happened in Witch Hunt (asking about Roland's mother, saving him from the flying monkey), but it stalled out for the remainder of the story arc.

 

The writers instead chose to focus more on the "hot" side of Outlaw Queen, which really portrays the notion that sex sells. OQ feels like the "love interest" part of the movie that doesn't really need to be there but it's there for ticket sales to complete the package. That's one reason I have a hard time buying OQ, because I don't see any real love or connection outside pixie dust and whiskey.

 

Outlaw Queen in a nutshell: pixie dust and whiskey.

Edited July 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I can't imagine Hook even in villain mode being attracted to Regina. While he worships the ground Emma walks on, he still calls her out on her "but I don't really have a home" self pity, so can you imagine him putting up with Woegina for more than a few minutes? And while we don't know this Robin Hood's story, we do know that a dishonest and cruel king who sent his people into danger and lied about it was part of what drove Hook from being a naval officer to piracy, so I can't see him getting swoony over a tyrant who abuses her own people. He used Regina and Cora as tools for his vengeance against Rumple, but it didn't seem like he ever respected either of them, and Hook seems to need to respect someone to be at all interested. Meanwhile, while Regina needs someone to stand up to her and call her out, I don't think she'd actually like it. Robin only mildly snarked at her. She was the one being obnoxious to him. She definitely doesn't seem to want a lover who challenges her to be a better person. She just wants someone to affirm that she's already awesome (or bold and audacious.) I don't think she'd put up with Hook's sass for long before she ripped out his heart so she could control him and keep him purely decorative.

[Rumsy4]

I do like the idea of Regina caring about Roland in this situation. I wish they would have showed more of her relationship with him, similarly to her relationship with Henry. In the Missing Year, Regina lost Henry, so it would have made sense for her to see Roland as another reason to go for Robin. That sort of happened in Witch Hunt (asking about Roland's mother, saving him from the flying monkey), but it stalled out for the remainder of the story arc.

 

This again goes back to the issue of the writers wanting to show that Regina could not move on without Henry. So, she was not allowed to develop feelings for Robin in the Lost Year, and unlike Snowing, she was also not allowed to show feelings for another child. The Flying Monkey scene was so contrived and pointless! Her understanding of Robin choosing to hand over her heart to Rumple rather than lose his son was a better one. But then, why didn't she put a spell on her own heart to keep it from being taken, like she did with Henry? And why did Robin's "safe spot" turn out to be so dumb? IDEK... 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Jean]

It doesn't seem like Snow and Charming were preordained or even prophesied. When Emma was talking to Past Rumple about needing to make sure her parents got together, he seemed surprised that "Prince James" was meant had the kind

This is either a continuity error or Rumple was acting. Because it was heavily implied he set up the whole shebang before any of them were even born. He was involved with James and David's life from the very beginning. Then he set the wheels in motion by making King George bankrupt after he was set with Snow's side of the equation.

[Shanna Marie]

This is either a continuity error or Rumple was acting. Because it was heavily implied he set up the whole shebang before any of them were even born. He was involved with James and David's life from the very beginning. Then he set the wheels in motion by making King George bankrupt after he was set with Snow's side of the equation.

But the bankruptcy put things in motion for James to marry Abigail, not Snow, and Rumple had nothing to do with James dying, unless he figured that was inevitable and he was keeping the important twin in reserve. Snow had been on the run for a while when George's kingdom went bankrupt, which means she wouldn't have been a viable prospect for James. Unless Rumple is so good that he micromanaged it for James to die and David to bump into Snow in the woods on his way to marry Abigail. I didn't get the impression that Rumple cared about Snow other than as a target for Regina's hatred until he saw how devoted David was to her, and then he figured that this was the couple that would give him his True Love. His prophetic ability is sketchy, and he's prone to misinterpreting it or doing dumb things to avoid the prophecy that end up making it come about.

[kili]

This is either a continuity error or Rumple was acting. Because it was heavily implied he set up the whole shebang before any of them were even born. He was involved with James and David's life from the very beginning.

 

Rumple made deals that didn't really fit into his master plan. He probably got something he wanted from George for James and maybe it's easier to get poor parents of twins to give up one of their babies rather than somebody else to give up their only baby. Or maybe he just gets a twisted joy out of separating them and leaving parents with a constant reminder of what he's done.  Or maybe he likes having a hot standby just in case.

 

Examples of deals that don't seem to do much to further his goal to finding Bae:

- Belle as a servant to free her father's lands of ogres - he's magical. Why does he even need a maid? Belle serves no role in finding Bae.

- Jiminy potion - his only payment for the potions is to collect the resulting dolls (is he that hard up for creepy decorations?). It's also unclear why he fences the stuff Jiminy's family steals

 

Then he set the wheels in motion by making King George bankrupt after he was set with Snow's side of the equation.

 

He wanted George bankrupt and desperate for a replacement son because he wanted to kill Cinderella's Fairy Godmother and take her wand (why he wanted the wand we don't really know). George's family had a connection to that Fairy Godmother and he gave up information about her to Rumple in exchange for a replacement son. I would not be surprised at all if Rumple engineered James's death so that George would need to trade the info (otherwise his deal with Regina to get help to bankrupt George isn't complete).

Edited July 24, 2014 by kili

[stealinghome]

Actually, I think Rumpel was probably faking in 3x22 (or it was a continuity goof), because imo he knew Snow and Charming were destined to get together. Don't forget that in 'Miller's Daughter,' when Cora was bitching about her snow white wedding dress, he cackled and then was like "Yeah, you'll get that later." So if he knew that Snow was really important 20ish years pre-curse, I think he had to have known that Snow and Charming were destined to get together and be the parents of the Savior. (Whether or not he knew that Charming was David, not James.)

Edited July 24, 2014 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

Don't forget that in 'Miller's Daughter,' when Cora was bitching about her snow white wedding dress, he cackled and then was like "Yeah, you'll get that later." So if he knew that Snow was really important 20ish years pre-curse, I think he had to have known that Snow and Charming were destined to get together and be the parents of the Savior.

He may have known that Snow was important, since she was destined to be the focus of Regina's rage that led to her casting the curse, but he may not have known Snow would also be the source of True Love or who her True Love partner would be. If he was lying to Emma, then he did a good job of not reacting at all. You'd think he'd have felt a lot more urgency about the situation if he'd known before Emma told him who the Savior's parents were, but he was playing it pretty cool. Obviously at that point he knew who "James" really was, but he really seemed surprised to hear that he ended up with someone other than Abigail.

 

Or on this show, continuity error is equally likely.

[Jean]

He wanted to kill Cinderella's fairy godmother to get at Cinderella. The wand thing and a dead fairy was a bonus. He wanted Cinderella in his debt with the baby thing because the end game with Cinderella was so he could be "imprisoned" in that magic containing cave. He wanted in that cave to get Emma's name. Emma realized all this because of the squid ink and the realization that Rumple could've walked out of there anytime he wanted to.

The Abigail thing was Snow and Charming's test. Abigail, Midas, and George's purpose was to get Snow desperate enough to go to Rumple for help in which he got the true love hairs in return. Don't ask me why he just couldn't yank it from them without putting them into a position to make a deal with him. But this was the man that asked for Charming's cloak to get a strand of hair rather than just asking for it.

Yes it's all convoluted and full of holes but they connected every S1 event enough for Rumple to be the puppet master of fate. I do think that was the writers' intent with how they laid it out.

But even barring all of that I still think Snow and Charming are predestined on the show or whatever. Remember Pan with Henry's portrait a century in advance? Henry could've only come from Emma and Neal and Emma could've only come from Snow and Charming.

[Guest]

Rumple made deals that didn't really fit into his master plan. He probably got something he wanted from George for James and maybe it's easier to get poor parents of twins to give up one of their babies rather than somebody else to give up their only baby. Or maybe he just gets a twisted joy out of separating them and leaving parents with a constant reminder of what he's done.  Or maybe he likes having a hot standby just in case.

 

I think plan C in case plan A fails and a house falls on plan B is the most likely explanation.

 

I think its entirely likely that Rumple had multiple protégés and dropped all but Regina once it became clear that Regina's nemesis found twu lov.  His explanation to Zelena being the most unkind way to deliver the news because the Dark One is a jackass most of the time.  With this show it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Maleficent, Cinderella's step mother and a host of others were students of Rumple and Evil Queen vs. Snow White seemed like the best bet. so he dropped the others.

 

PS.  I hate the idea of an all powerful Rumple that set all the fairy tales in motion but it seems most likely based on what we've seen thus far.

Edited July 24, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

He wanted to kill Cinderella's fairy godmother to get at Cinderella. The wand thing and a dead fairy was a bonus.

 

There was an episode where Rumple specifically asked King George to tell him the whereabouts of their kingdom's Fairy Godmother, so he did specifically want the wand, as kili mentioned above.  He wanted to get imprisoned too, but I wonder if it was his plan all along to use Cinderella for that but it seems pretty easy to get thrown in jail... he really didn't need all that manipulation.

[FurryFury]

Going back a few posts, I think it would have possible to make a Hook/Regina pairing, but not with the Hook we have now - only with the one from season 2. Of course, he'd have to have a slightly different backstory and development, but I could see it working. However, personally, I believe that trickster types, like Hook or, say, Jefferson, aren't a good match for Regina. I could imagine her romancing a former general of a Dark Lord's army, or a fallen prince charming (not David, obviously). Not a roguish character, and probably not a squeaky clean one, either.

[l star]

If Regina did do any bonding with Roland during the Lost Year, I think her dislike for Robin actually makes that more likely. Looking out for a motherless little boy while publicly deriding his thief of a father sounds like Regina. Playing happy families with a motherless little boy and his hot dad is another. Her Grief and Devastation wouldn't have allowed that acknowledgement of moving on from Henry.

 

My big hope for the Marion/Robin/Regina clusterfuck is that it blows this notion of One True Love all to hell because it is, IMO, bullshit. That is unlikely though. So I really can't take sides. Tink's idea of Robin/Regina's true happiness being screwed up because she ran is already stupid- see Roland and Henry. But Marion 'died' 3 years ago for Robin. A widow/er remarrying after 3 years is not uncommon in my experience. Is he supposed to say 'well, you died and I grieved then moved on and fell in love again but now here you are so reverse course'? I realize it was yesterday for her and it will suck but I am going to need her to wrap her head around the fact that he buried her three years ago and moved on.

 

Then there is Regina in this equation. Regina is batshit fucking nuts. She will have no concept of the idea that a situation can just suck for everyone. That is where Emma will come in I think- she will be Regina's fall guy. I'm expecting sympathy for Regina from all the characters, but especially Snow. Snow has a massive blind spot where Regina is concerned. She is one more example of emotional blind spots not being logical or reasonable. Some of it will also likely come from Regina being Regina. Regina is not a character they can tell to suck it up and deal. It is in everyone's best interests for Regina to be handled, preferably with a lot of supervision. 

 

My biggest question for next season is where Henry is going to live. Is he going to live with Emma? Surely she is not moving back in with her parents and Neal. Will he split time between Emma's and Regina's? Going from the finale, I feel like there is some serious Regina/Henry time due besides that it would have to be tempting for him to sleep in the room he grew up in again. I feel like that situation will have a lot of bearing on the triangle. If Regina can shift back to rebuilding her little family with Henry and co-existing with the Charmings, even while angry at Emma, I think the Robin fallout will be smoother. If the Charmings and Henry are holed up together and she doesn't have the outlet of Henry or Snow on a regular basis, this will be really ugly.

 

Robin is my main issue. I won't blame him if he hesitates about going back to Marion. But Regina's role in her death should be a major road block for him. But does he really freak out that much about anything? He typically doesn't seem to give a shit what everyone else does. As long as his debts are cleared and he feels good with things, he goes along. By the end of last season, I was having serious issues with his lack of fire up against Regina. She is this roller coaster ride of frenetic emotion and energy and he was just...pretty. If he wasn't a match for her loved up and happy I can't see him holding up when she's pissed off and lashing out. So all in all, my vote is he dies. I don't know if Regina can do better but she can certainly do more interesting. Marion can go back to the past with Roland and live happily ever after there.

 

ETA: My dream Regina romance is someone like Graham or Jefferson. She needs someone who can be all about her in their personal life and outside of that, does their own thing that doesn't compete with hers. Basically an awesome whatever who is happy doing what they are great at and doesn't need/want to be in charge.

Edited July 24, 2014 by l star

[Jean]

Going back a few posts, I think it would have possible to make a Hook/Regina pairing, but not with the Hook we have now - only with the one from season 2. Of course, he'd have to have a slightly different backstory and development, but I could see it working.

No human being deserves Woegina. Maybe a rat with no ears so it can't be bothered by her nonstop whining. And rats can swim so it can't be drowned by her ocean of tears. Barring that it makes me laugh that the writers love their Victim Sue so much but they gave her the blandest love interest cause they are just that bad at their job. May they live happily ever after with 10 kids. Offscreen. If not I'll take them contained to one another so that they can't infect other characters.

S2 Hook was annoyed by Woegina. Never would've worked. He found Cora and her distasteful. Might be hypocritical but he has his own code. Emma of S1 actually fits him pretty well but they've taken away her grit, snarkiness, and any sense of fun she had. Their chemistry also seems to come and go, it's pretty strange. I can see him with a Faith, from Buffy, type of character. She was crazy and emo but she also had fun. Nobody on this show seems to have any fun or sense of humor except for Hook and imp Rumple. It wasn't until the season ender when Emma was having fun that her and Hook finally fit, besides that one hot kiss of theirs in Neverland.

The perfect guy for Emma I thought was Jefferson. They had enormous amounts of chemistry and called her out on her bs. Or they need to put her with a silly irreverent guy to lighten her up. Like a Tony Stark.

[patchwork]

For the most part I'm happy with CS (it could be written better but that's OUAT in a nutshell) and I'm relieved that Emma finally has someone solidly in her corner without being Belle about it.

 

What I meant by using Hook as an example is that if Regina had to have a love interest, and I'm not convinced she does, he should have been someone without a canonical love interest, who is a character in his own right. has his own character arc, flashbacks and interaction with other people beside her- a purpose besides her. The romance should be a slow build not just because insta-romance doesn't fit a character like Regina but because his character should be integrated into the show before the curtain is pulled back and the creators reveal he was meant to be Regina's LI all along.  

 

In season 3 Hook did fall into Charming's role of back-up singer for his lady and while I'm not really objecting to that I hope he gets his own storyline outside of Emma in season 4.   

Edited July 24, 2014 by patchwork

[stealinghome]

No human being deserves Woegina. Maybe a rat with no ears so it can't be bothered by her nonstop whining. And rats can swim so it can't be drowned by her ocean of tears.

Oh man, @Jean, you have no idea how hard this made me laugh. You win the internet for today!

 

In season 3 Hook did fall into Charming's role of back-up singer for his lady and while I'm not really objecting to that I hope he gets his own storyline outside of Emma in season 4.

Aside from Rumpel, though, I think this is the role that all male love interests are destined to play on this show. The show clearly is (or wants to be, at least) all about the ladies.

[kili]

No human being deserves Woegina. Maybe a rat with no ears so it can't be bothered by her nonstop whining. And rats can swim so it can't be drowned by her ocean of tears.

 

We all know who that describes. Taking what others have said, I've found the perfect man:

 

Mercenary with questionable past who won't be overly judgy of Regina - Check - willing to work with everybody from a Dark One to a pirate to a disgruntled father - no job too small

No Canonical True Love - Check - No love interest at all. Confirmed bachelor

No Ears - Check - rarely seen and comes with his own ear muffler

Rat - Check

 

Who is our mystery TL for Regina? Smee!

[Mari]

We all know who that describes. Taking what others have said, I've found the perfect man:

 

Mercenary with questionable past who won't be overly judgy of Regina - Check - willing to work with everybody from a Dark One to a pirate to a disgruntled father - no job too small

No Canonical True Love - Check - No love interest at all. Confirmed bachelor

No Ears - Check - rarely seen and comes with his own ear muffler

Rat - Check

 

Who is our mystery TL for Regina? Smee!

Peter Pettigrew from Harry Potter would work as well.  He's also remarkably tolerant of abuse, and willing to go to extreme lengths for people he's into.

[Camera One]

To be fair to Regina, she does want someone who "challenges" her, as she realized in the horrible episode "Welcome to Storybrooke".  These candidates would be fine as minions (which every evil villain needs), but she would want someone to banter back and forth with.  That's why on paper, that type of sniping back and forth she had with Robin Hood in 3B was supposed to work, even though it ended up falling flat due to lack of chemistry.

[stealinghome]

To be fair to Regina, she does want someone who "challenges" her, as she realized in the horrible episode "Welcome to Storybrooke".  These candidates would be fine as minions (which every evil villain needs), but she would want someone to banter back and forth with.

I think Regina wants (and needs) someone who challenges her, but doesn't know that that's what she wants, if that makes sense. I think Regina probably thinks that a minion-type who will never disagree with her is what she wants, but we all know that she'll be bored with that person in .5 seconds flat.

[kili]

These candidates would be fine as minions (which every evil villain needs), but she would want someone to banter back and forth with.

 

And here I was thinking she was lucky to have a choice between Smee and Peter. Okay, I have a third guy (who knew she had so many options given the rigid criteria we had laid out):

 

Good with Banter - Check- Knows how to mix it up verbally with his best friends, dad and critics

Mercenary with questionable past who won't be overly judgy of Regina - Check -  This guy is a known house invader who frequently steals - also freely breaks health regulations.

No Canonical True Love - Check - No love interest at all. Confirmed bachelor despite a great number of options.

No Ears - Mini Check Mark - He does have ears, but can escape to his dreamworld and tune out the world when necessary

Rat - Check - He even demonstrated swimming ability

 

I give you: Remy!

 

No doubt, like Gus-gus (who as a mouse could have been a contender) he was converted to human form when the curse hit. Bonus! He's party of the Disney family (Ratatouille) so there are none of those unpleasent licensing issues. You have to know he's going to fall straight in love with Regina when he gets a gander at her awesome kitchen. They'll be baking tarts (if not tacos) in no time.

Edited July 24, 2014 by kili

[Souris]

Yeah, I distinctly remember some interview Jen gave post-Manhattan when she was like "Yeah, I don't think Emma is interested in getting back with Neal at all. She's not looking at it that way." and then a couple of episodes later, surprise! Emma has been hopelessly in love with Neal all along. Those are maybe the things Adam and Eddy should tell the actress so she can, you know, act them. No wonder lots of people went 'WTF' at the "I love you" in the finale.

 

The way I've been able to reconcile that in my head is that Emma was so effed up because of Neal and the total lack of love she'd had in her life, that she thought the fact she was still in pain from what he did to her equaled love -- when in reality, it was just emotional scars and baggage. She simply had no basis to know what love was supposed to feel like, so she thought the pain she felt was it.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Souris

[Dani-Ellie]

From the "Tallahassee" thread:

 

 

 

The thing is, I don't think that Morrison was anti-Emma and Neal getting back together, per se--but I do think she was anti-them getting back together without dealing with their baggage and what Neal did to Emma. I suspect that she wouldn't have been nearly as pointed about it all if the show hadn't given Neal the Great Regina Whitewash (and made the story so flimsy to boot).

 

Right. I mean, full-on, I was one of those completely "no way in hell" people when it came to Swanfire but had it been dealt with in any kind of reasonable way (read: not just talking around everything ... let's see Charming and Snow find out what happened between them, let's see Neal and Emma actually hash it out, let's see the fallout, dammit) and we could have seen Emma healing and responding to the situation in a positive manner, my "no way in hell" could possibly have been swayed to a "maybe." As it played out, though? No way in hell, period, full-stop. Because I cannot think of a single reason why Emma should have trusted Neal with her heart again since he treated it so shoddily the first time and gave her no real explanation as to why he did so and since he'd had the opportunity to find her again and decided to leave her behind instead. That's someone you put in your rearview mirror, not someone you go running back to, imo.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FabulousTater]

From the "Tallahassee" rewatch thread:

Oh, it's not just you. I don't remember what they were now, but JMo said a couple of relatively pointed things in S2 and early S3 that made me sit up and think "ooh, she also thinks the writing for Emma/Nealfire is really f'ed up."

The thing is, I don't think that Morrison was anti-Emma and Neal getting back together, per se-- [...]

I don't know. We'll probably never know for sure what JMo really and truly thinks about the storyline. I don't think she'll ever come out and say, point blank, "Ya, SwanFire was never going to happen even if Nealfire had lived." But, I do remember reading an interview last summer (I think it was a magazine interview ) where Jennifer talked about how, as Emma, she just didn't see how Emma would take Nealfire back because Emma would never be able to trust him. Even if Emma accepted whatever excuse that Nealfire gave her for betraying and abandoning her, the fact of the matter is that he never came back for her even after she broke the curse and that he actually moved on with someone else. So in Emma's head that translated into the fact that Nealfire didn't love her enough. Had he loved her more or if his love had been "true" he would've come back. And he didn't. In fact, he avoided her like the plague for 12 years. (essentially, in my interpretation, she was saying that having Emma take back Nealfire wouldn't be believable behavior for Emma, especially based on how they had written their story and based on who Emma is as a character.)

 

Now mid S3, Jennifer was forced to deal with the Great Whitewash of Douchefire, the romantic triangle storyline, and Snow cheerleading for Team Neal. But I personally (based on the interview I recall reading above and other tidbits here and there) don't think she (JMo) ever really considered Emma getting back together with Nealfire as a believable notion for Emma to entertain. It's just what the writers gave her to work with, and since it's her job, that's what she did.

Edited July 24, 2014 by FabulousTater