Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[TheGreenKnight]

I like the Ruby/Dorothy pairing, and their big TLK scene was romantic. I just wish it had more setup, that Mulan wasn't just cast off to the side, and that it didn't totally derail everything else. If I didn't know any better, I'd say it existed only for the Ruby Slippers pun. But it's not a bad idea and I don't believe they had zero chemistry. The surrounding circumstances and rushed writing are really what keep it from being recognized by the majority as a good ship.

I agree. And I liked Ruby/Dorothy more than I did Mulan/Ruby, to be honest. I just wish they had never setup Mulan and Ruby in the first place is all.

[MaiLuna]

They could have done a better job at it even in just one episode. Everyone liked Snow Falls and Skin Deep. Skin Deep set up Rumbelle in just one episode, but they had quite a lot of screentime and a lot of time passed in between them. The problem with R/D was that they spent what? Two hours together? They could have made it seem like they spent a few days together. 

[myril]

The reason there's a connection between how many people she's dated and not accepting the Ruby/Dorothy pairing is because with all those dates, Ruby was shown to be someone who liked people, and found them interesting, but didn't emotionally connect quickly, on a romantic level.    That makes sense after what happened with Peter, I guess.

 

Guessed it might be more something like that, but it sounded a bit different.

 

But I see Ruby differently. Think she was an open person, cheerful, adventurous, somewhat impulsive, connecting rather easily with people, and connecting emotionally. See how fast she connected with Snow. All that despite even being raised by her more controlled and cautious grandmother, who was like that for a good reason though. And then Red discovered that she was a werewolf, and she couldn't stop herself from killing her boyfriend Peter. Traumatizing experience, life changing, so she became hesitant about connecting with anyone like she had with Peter, understandably. But she missed that at the same time, because it's not her in basic character to be so reserved and controlled. Thus the rebellious side, emerging more pronounced again under the curse. Ruby has some fire, she enjoyed running wild as wolf, but with time came slightly more control over it. At the same time she is a sweet and observing person.

 

We saw Ruby connecting only once on a romantic level before, that was with Peter, and we didn't see how that started. In other cases it was more others trying to romantically connect with her, but sometimes there is just not that kind of interest there. There was that guy from the pack, but that was more some innuendo and the wild side for both. She liked Gus as person, but he might just not have given her that shiver and spark, regardless what a nice guy he was. With Whale there was a moment of opening up, sharing, butI didn't see that it had to get to a romantical level ever between those two, it was not there yet for sure IMO.

 

I am not saying, that a slower approach wouldn't have made any sense with Ruby as well, but neither do I think that her going that fast for Dorothy was implausible. She was hesitant even, but then there was Mulan giving her advice telling her not to make the same mistake she made and wait too long.

Edited April 19, 2016 by myril

[jhlipton]

What it boiled down to is that this felt a lot more like "Yay, we've ticked of that box on the diversity checklist and covered ourselves after someone said something in an interview and it turned into a big thing that we had to deliver. Moving on now ..." than "we were inspired to develop this relationship after seeing how these characters worked together, and we got excited about the possibilities in telling their story."

 

In other words, TS; TW.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I agree. And I liked Ruby/Dorothy more than I did Mulan/Ruby, to be honest. I just wish they had never setup Mulan and Ruby in the first place is all.

In my opinion, Ruby has more in common with Dorothy. They both have a connection to canines, had an older family member who looked out for them, and felt out of place in the world. 

 

 

They could have done a better job at it even in just one episode. Everyone liked Snow Falls and Skin Deep. Skin Deep set up Rumbelle in just one episode, but they had quite a lot of screentime and a lot of time passed in between them. The problem with R/D was that they spent what? Two hours together? They could have made it seem like they spent a few days together.

And at the end of Snow Falls, Snowing didn't TLK. They parted ways and didn't even admit they liked each other. Even though their relationship was still rushed, it feels much more earned. It had a far greater foundation. While Ruby Slippers didn't have the fairy tale precedent behind it, if it had gotten an episode beforehand like Mulan Rouge did with 5x09, it still would have been better.

[Dianthus]

I'm wondering if a CS TLK is how they're going to free all the Lost Souls? I know we haven't had any spoilers to that effect, but maybe it was in studio? I dunno.

[InsertWordHere]

In my opinion, Ruby has more in common with Dorothy. They both have a connection to canines, had an older family member who looked out for them, and felt out of place in the world. 

I feel like this is actually my problem with Ruby Slippers compared to Mulan Rouge. It feels very paint by numbers to me, right down to having an "Aunty Em's" in the Underworld in opposition to Granny's. 

 

And at the end of Snow Falls, Snowing didn't TLK. They parted ways and didn't even admit they liked each other.

They parted ways and then Charming wrote a longing love letter to her, Snow showed up and told him they couldn't be together, then drank a potion to forget him, and his kiss brought back her memories at their next meeting. Dorothy/Red is really just an abbreviated version of that. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

And at the end of Snow Falls, Snowing didn't TLK. They parted ways and didn't even admit they liked each other.

They parted ways and then Charming wrote a longing love letter to her, Snow showed up and told him they couldn't be together, then drank a potion to forget him, and his kiss brought back her memories at their next meeting. Dorothy/Red is really just an abbreviated version of that.

It is, it's just condensed into a single episode.

 

 

And it goes to show again that it's the actors who elevate the material much of the time.  Snow and Charming had me at glass coffin.

 

I agree that some quick-start romances like Snowing or Merlin/Nimue work because of the compelling actors. Another thing those couples did was interact with actions, not just dialogue. They didn't just talk about their life stories and go intimate instantly. They had common experiences that went beyond walking to a poppy field.

Edited April 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

At least Snow and Charming got to spend most of the flashbacks in "Snow Falls" walking through the woods talking.  With Red/Dorothy, it was just one segment of the flashback, en route to the poppy field.  

 

I was actually pretty disappointed in Season 1 that Snowing didn't meet each other a few more times before dumb new obstacles of the forgetting potion and the betrothal, but now we know that's how the Writers roll.  

 

But the Red/Dorothy stuff was a whole new level of abbreviated love.

 

And it goes to show again that it's the actors who elevate the material much of the time.  Snow and Charming had me at glass coffin.

[Rumsy4]

The insta love trope is getting progressively bad each season. This arc has been the worst, with Hades/Zelena, and then Red/Dorothy. I love Megan Ory's Red, but she seemed off the entire episode. It's like she herself didn't believe in the romance they gave her character.

[InsertWordHere]

And it goes to show again that it's the actors who elevate the material much of the time.  Snow and Charming had me at glass coffin.

I remember discussing this a long time ago on TWOP, but Snowing's success has almost everything to do with the actors' chemistry (plus awesome musical accompaniment) and little to do with compelling writing, aside from Snow Falls. Their story is about love overcoming all obstacles, which is sweet, but it would have been nice if it was also about how they fell in love and how they learned to be together. Snow Falls remains amazing, but what came after it wasn't, even in Season 1.

 

They also benefit from coming first, before the other insta love couples, so it's not as noticeable that these writers suck at writing love stories.  

[Selina K]

I think Snow and Charming also benefit from the fact that they are established by all the iterations of the story that exist in the source material so I go into the relationship with a certain amount of knowledge that reinforces what they're showing on the screen, so I augment what I see with what I already know.

I have no issues with going against canon (sources - not show canon.). But if you're going to take the established story we know and flip it on its head, I need more than, "wouldn't it be cool if ..." You need to sell it to me with organic development. this show is a big fan of the instant fix. Oh look, Regina is sad about not being invited to dinner, now she is redeemed! Oh look, Rumple was brave for 10 seconds, he is a hero! Oh look, Ruby and Dorothy went for a walk, they're true love! The only place they didn't do this was Captain Swan, which may be why I buy that relationship more than anything else in the show.

[Olivia Y]

I think Snow and Charming also benefit from the fact that they are established by all the iterations of the story that exist in the source material ...

Definitely. They literally started with TLK and then built the backstory around that, so I can understand why it was easier to accept their story even though it happened pretty quickly as well. The problem with basing it on fairy tales is that in the original story (or the Disney one) there's literally no build up whatsoever. At least they did more than croon at each other separated by a balcony.

 

Every other pairing felt rushed, because most of them had to be wrapped up in one episode. The only 'organic' relationship I really felt was Emma/Graham, like it was starting to go somewhere (him having flashbacks and her being more accepting) but not TL straight away. Pity that one was cut short so abruptly. 

[Olivia Y]

The insta love trope is getting progressively bad each season. This arc has been the worst, with Hades/Zelena, and then Red/Dorothy. I love Megan Ory's Red, but she seemed off the entire episode. It's like she herself didn't believe in the romance they gave her character.

I think Megan Ory's a great actress and if I was /only/ shown the scene where she was saying to Dorothy about how she didn't know what she was looking for (with 'I think I'm in love with you' written all over her face) as some sort of promo without knowing the context, I'd totally buy it as a love story and expect some sort of tortured backstory. But there was no build-up to support that kind of confession, so when watching it as part of the narrative just felt so out of the blue.

[pezgirl7]

I was thinking about how Belle said that she would need her father to wake her with a TLK, because she didn't think Rumple's kiss would work. I always took true love to mean forever love. But this makes it sound like you can fall out of love and no longer be true loves with someone. Then how is that any different than any other kind of love? I think Rumple and Belle still love each other (Didn't they even say as much?), so I have a feeling a TLK might work for them.

[Rumsy4]

Belle did not say that Rumple's kiss wouldn't work. She just wasn't going to force him to kiss her and lose his Power when he was unwilling. However, I do think this setup is foreshadowing a Rumbelle TLK. Sigh...

[YaddaYadda]

I was thinking about how Belle said that she would need her father to wake her with a TLK, because she didn't think Rumple's kiss would work. I always took true love to mean forever love. But this makes it sound like you can fall out of love and no longer be true loves with someone. Then how is that any different than any other kind of love? I think Rumple and Belle still love each other (Didn't they even say as much?), so I have a feeling a TLK might work for them.

 

I think it has more to do with Rumple not wanting to give up the power. If he TLKs Belle then he breaks his own curse.

[pezgirl7]

So it's been confirmed that a TLK would make him lose his power? I know the first time they kissed, he started to lose it, but you'd think a TLK would be situational, and not cure everything that is "wrong" with the couple. It's so ridiculous.

[Curio]

So it's been confirmed that a TLK would make him lose his power? I know the first time they kissed, he started to lose it, but you'd think a TLK would be situational, and not cure everything that is "wrong" with the couple. It's so ridiculous.

 

Responding in the magic thread.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

They literally started with TLK and then built the backstory around that, so I can understand why it was easier to accept their story even though it happened pretty quickly as well. The problem with basing it on fairy tales is that in the original story (or the Disney one) there's literally no build up whatsoever. At least they did more than croon at each other separated by a balcony.

That's a big part of why Snow and Charming worked -- their Disney counterparts barely interacted, so the fact that they had even met and had an actual conversation counted as fleshing out the story (in the fairy tale, there was no kiss -- the prince fell in love with the dead chick in the glass coffin and wanted to bring the coffin home with him so he could have her with him, and moving the coffin dislodged the piece of poison apple from her throat, so she woke up. So romantic). We don't really know exactly how much they'd interacted because we only saw the highlight reel in flashback, but even if we saw all of it, they had gone through a lot to be together and were willing to sacrifice themselves for each other. Snow willingly went under the sleeping curse to protect Charming. That seems to be way above the kind of love that comes from one walk in the woods and a bit of snark.

 

I was thinking about how Belle said that she would need her father to wake her with a TLK, because she didn't think Rumple's kiss would work. I always took true love to mean forever love. But this makes it sound like you can fall out of love and no longer be true loves with someone. Then how is that any different than any other kind of love?

I don't think there's ever been any indication that it has to be forever. If the other person changes and is no longer the person you fell in love with, then that should change things, as should realizing that the person you loved never existed. Belle fell in love with what she thought was a good man beneath the monster, but he turned out to be a monster through and through, which I would hope changes things for her. But I think the reason she didn't think a TLK would work is that she didn't think he loved her enough -- he put power ahead of her, disregarding how much that would hurt her, which isn't really "true" love. Of course, I've always thought the aborted TLK was weird since if he could stop it because there was something he loved more that he didn't want to lose, how could it have been True Love in the first place? True Love should be something that's all-in, and if you can pull back from it, how true can it be?

[Rumsy4]

But I think the reason she didn't think a TLK would work is that she didn't think he loved her enough -- he put power ahead of her, disregarding how much that would hurt her, which isn't really "true" love. 

 

There is nothing to show Belle thinks a TLK between her and Rumpke wouldn't work. She just didn't want to force him into a position where he would have to give up his power to save her. Personally, I don't see how Rumbelle can be considered True Love, but I don't think the Show is going there.

[KingOfHearts]

There is nothing to show Belle thinks a TLK between her and Rumpke wouldn't work. She just didn't want to force him into a position where he would have to give up his power to save her. Personally, I don't see how Rumbelle can be considered True Love, but I don't think the Show is going there.

I think it could have been True Love in Skin Deep. But after Rumple chose power, that went down the drain. At the time he had finding Bae as an excuse, but knowing what we know now, that probably wasn't the case. The kiss didn't stop working because he pulled out, but because he chose his power midway through.

[Mari]

Then we're left, once again, at "When does love stop being a worthwhile goal?"

 

When he was choosing to keep the power because he thought he needed it to find Baelfire, there was still hope for the relationship--it could be argued that it wasn't that he didn't love Belle enough, it was a case of choosing who is more vulnerable.  If you choose your child over your lover, it doesn't mean you don't love both, possibly even equally.  It just means choosing the one that needs you the most.

 

But if he is continually, consciously and unconsciously choosing power over Belle--not safety, not a child, not even necessaries like food?  Can even this show argue that he truly loves her?  Can they make that argument with a straight face?

 

And yet I know the show is probably going to TLK them at some point, and keep them together, and emphasize their True Love status.  TS, TW.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But if he is continually, consciously and unconsciously choosing power over Belle--not safety, not a child, not even necessaries like food?  Can even this show argue that he truly loves her?  Can they make that argument with a straight face?

When Rumple said he loved both Belle and power, all I could think of was, "You can't serve two masters - for you'll love one and hate the other." You can love multiple things, but when one thing gets in the way of the other, how do you pick? If one thing wins every single time, that means you ultimately love one more than the other. On one side, you've got Belle trying to change Rumple into something he's not. And on the other, Rumple is always coming back to his mistress the dagger. I believe it's possible for Rumple to love Belle with his power, but Belle wants all or nothing, so it doesn't work.

Edited April 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I question the viability of any relationship that requires one party to do something that they don't want. Rumpel even refers to giving Belle True Love's Kiss as "forcing" him to become the man she wants. That's not a recipe for a healthy relationship. Regardless of how I feel about Rumpel as a person, it's not fair to him to put him in that position in their relationship. It would inevitably lead to serious resentment.

 

I was thinking that because it's this show, they could have the baby gestate as per usual despite the curse and then after delivering the baby via c-section, the newborn could give its mom True Love's Kiss. No one gives up anything. Problem solved.

[Katherine]

I'm starting to think Rumbelle is the most problematic part of the show, and that's saying something. It's so twisted; all I can think of is the cycle of abuse. Rumple does something unforgivable, Belle leaves, Rumple begs for her forgiveness, she takes him back. Over and over. And then there's the fact that Rumple killed his last wife. I don't understand why the writers continue to push this relationship on us. My hope is that Rumbelle will be the one couple that doesn't get a happy ending, and Rumple will go down as a villain, but I feel like the writers are scared of angering fans.

I really loved Rumple's relationship with Bae. It was the heart of his character. It made him complex and also sympathetic. To me, that should've always been the focus. The writers dropped the ball by introducing Neal as Bae, and by having him and Rumple reunite as early as season two. I think Rumple finding Bae should've been left for towards the end of Rumple's arc, and I think Rumbelle should've been left as a one-off episode.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Katherine

[KingOfHearts]

So why exactly does Rumple still want Belle at this point? He owns his darkness now, so it's not like he needs a light in his life. Lately, Belle just drags him away from the direction he wants to go in. I get this show is trying to tell me that he cares about her, but we know he doesn't. I used to think he dated Belle to feel better about himself, but that seems to have changed. What I can figure is he just likes being a jerk to a woman who will fall for it over and over again. He's a sadist who likes sating his appetite through a reliable source.

 

Edit: Totally forgot about Damien. That's probably the biggest factor...

Edited April 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

It's not just Belle anymore though.

 

Rumple burned down the boat and condemned Milah to eternal torment so that he could get back home after he realized Belle was pregnant. Logically, he loves his child to be, and I'd think that would be enough motivation for him to be able to let go of the Dark One.

 

Then again, Rumple has been presented as an addict, so giving up his drug for his wife, and child is not so easily done. This is how I have to look at it if any of this is going to make any kind of sense. Because addicts tend to choose their addiction over the people they love. Rumple loves his crack. And he's chosen his crack over his wife.

 

Eventually, he'll choose her, but clearly not now. And Belle will pat him on the shoulder, give him a kiss, and tell him she knew he could do it.

[Curio]

Then again, Rumple has been presented as an addict, so giving up his drug for his wife, and child is not so easily done. This is how I have to look at it if any of this is going to make any kind of sense. Because addicts tend to choose their addiction over the people they love. Rumple loves his crack. And he's chosen his crack over his wife.

 

Responding in the Rumple thread.

[Guest]

I like the Ruby/Dorothy pairing, and their big TLK scene was romantic. I just wish it had more setup, that Mulan wasn't just cast off to the side, and that it didn't totally derail everything else. If I didn't know any better, I'd say it existed only for the Ruby Slippers pun. But it's not a bad idea and I don't believe they had zero chemistry. The surrounding circumstances and rushed writing are really what keep it from being recognized by the majority as a good ship.

 

What bothered me is that the final scene with the TLK became a ripoff of Snow/Charming.  I think the whole thing would have worked much better if they kept it rooted in Wizard of Oz with the poppie fields sequence.  The TLK could have created the snow that woke Dorothy.

[Camera One]

I like your idea.  They probably set it up like Snow/Charming because they thought it was a really clever call-back.  

[Camera One]

A walk in the woods and some nicknames doesn't do it for me. If the best they can come up with is an interest in canines, why not Cruella and Ruby? Belle got herself captured by chasing a dog so why not Belle and Ruby? They have at least interacted and been somewhat friends in past episodes.

 

I just read this, and I was posting about it in the other thread just now.  Those would make just as much sense.

[myril]

Except the odd thing is that they hadn't ever actually established Red as lesbian. All her previous relationships that they've shown were with men. She flirted heavily with men and was dating Billy/Gus-Gus during the curse, but even before that she had the boyfriend she unintentionally killed when she was a wolf, when they thought he was the wolf and he was chained up while she wasn't. Then there seemed to be some flirting/bonding with Whale, and in a deleted scene she was giving Hook an appreciative look. They didn't give even the slightest hint that she might have a different orientation or might be questioning her orientation until they brought her back to spark with Mulan last fall. It was like they just picked the only unattached recurring female character to pair with Mulan, only to then pull a bait-and-switch and throw her at Dorothy, instead. So that makes it come across like "if you don't have a boyfriend at all times, maybe you're a lesbian." If Dorothy was her first same-sex attraction, then there needed to be even more development to get from zero to True Love.

 

 

I don't remember there being any development in terms of establishing Red as same-sex attracted. And I am really tired of shows that have women (always women - never men) suddenly decide to have a lesbian relationship when they've never shown any interest in the same sex before. I don't see any male characters suddenly having a homosexual romance out of nowhere. I could touch on the reasons why but I might start ranting and that never looks good.

 

 

I thought I was the only one confused by Red's sudden lesbianism. There were no indicators of it in her previous relationships. She was the town slut before the curse if I'm remembering correctly. Well according to granny anyway.

 

 

I never said she wasn't bisexual. I said she'd never shown any same-sex attraction before that I'd seen. And this ongoing "women are all secretly bisexual" crap TV has been feeding us is annoying as hell.

 

 

I completely agree with you about how shows push the all women are secretly bisexual, or at least we all want to experiment thing. That is male fantasy not reality.

 

it adds to the wondering, why wasn't it Mulan and Dorothy. They have at least hinted at an interest in women in Mulan with the whole Aurora thing. So it wouldn't have felt so out of the blue. I'd love to know why they decided to use Red for this storyline.

 

 

That pretty much says it all.  It was so undeveloped, it could practically have been anybody.  Merida and Dorothy.  Rapunzel and Mulan.  Red and the Blind Witch.  It just felt random.

 

 

I suppose I can hand wave the fact that Ruby was written and shown as being into men, flirty, etc., as being a part of the curse. Just as the curse broke apart couples, it could have given her that sort of background where she was in constant search for a good time with men rather than true and lasting love. It would certainly derail her happiness, as the Evil Queen was wanting to do (remove all the happy endings)

 

Sorry, but this is a longer answer, because there are a lot of things to explain, as there are a lot of things not seen.

 

Red is not lesbian, she is bisexual. Unless she would identify herself now as lesbian, as Willow did on Buffy after she fell in love with Tara.

 

Did they had to establish her as bisexual from season 1 on, or at least earlier than this episode? I ask the question differently: Did they explicitly establish her as heterosexual? Did Red ever say she was exclusively into guys?

 

She had a romance with Peter, now she is in love with Dorothy.

 

They showed Red flirting with Gus during the curse, and maybe even they had dates, but in my opinion that was rather left open. It was Gus who after the curse approached her first, wanted them to get to know each other now as their true selves, so he wanted to ask her out. But Red was hesitant about it, and saved by Belle from the awkward moment and having to explain, why she wasn't open to a date at least for the time being. Possible Red was just a bit scared to date Gus because of her being a wolf, remembering what had happened with Peter, and not that night, she sensed she was going to turn. Or maybe as well, though Gus was a nice guy, she was not into him.

 

Whale flirted with Ruby during the curse, but didn't look to me as if Ruby liked it much. And while they sure had a moment of understanding later in season 2, which maybe could have led to more someday, it was at that point just a moment of understanding. Red had an open way with people (astoundingly, given how people sometimes treated her), connected with Belle very fast for example, and with Snow.

 

Red was during the curse shown as a woman many saw as rather easy girl, young, attractive, saucy, working as waitress at a dinner, rebellious and extrovert - classical. The kind of woman many see think has to be a slut. Of course, such a woman is seen as a flirt, even if she might be just nice and friendly to people. She might have just tried to have some fun in life and make working as waitress in this small town for herself somehow bearable. I know how I spiced up hours in boring phone customer service with being flirty with people on the phone - doesn't mean I was seriously interested in or attracted to any, and most certainly not, that I was looking for a romance with any of them. And some guys flirted with me, unasked for, maybe because I was nice (nice and friendly as the job demands) or maybe because my husky and deeper voice made them picture a redheaded or blonde our whatever vamp.

 

I know, that some people saw the possibility of Ruby finding Belle attractive. RedBeauty is something some people ship. If you look for it on Tumblr you sure will find some romantic interpretations of gifs of scenes between those two.

 

Red was a character that was seen by some early as being a character who could be bisexual. Many might say, that's just subtext reading, but what do you think queer people do in real life? We're used to look for very subtle hints and signs because it's not that long that in some places tolerance has increased. It's still frowned at even by more tolerant people when gay, lesbian, bisexual people show their affections more openly. It can be still even dangerous to do so, regardless of tolerance, attacks still happen. As well LGBTQI people still have to fear, that employers might not tolerate them and fire them, or that they might get not a job. Protection against discrimination at work, schools, business is not law even in all of the U.S., despite marriage equality now reached. It is something I think many don't realize about subtext reading: It's not just about that things weren't shown, couldn't be shown on screen, and that there is still a lack of representation on screen, but that it is a matter as well of everyday offscreen real life for queer people. Right, some are quite flashy on CSD parades, but in everyday life many more are still very subtle and guarded. So seeing a fictional character, we take every subtle gesture, that can be read in one or the other way, as possible sign, see potential while many other don't.

 

Furthermore, in our societies we are used to seeing things in certain ways, leading us to assume certain things, we are biased, often enough we are not even aware of it. There are societal images and common ways in society to see things, what is seen as being normal. There is a term for that in this case, it's heteronormativity. We see a woman have a romance with a man, and unless it is explicitly expressed otherwise we assume, she is heterosexual because of that. She has to have to show at least some hints, signs and at best say it for most people to accept without much astonishment and doubts, that she is bisexual, when at some point later she is falling in love with a woman. She doesn't even need to have any relationship or flirt, and still most people would assume without much of a thought, that she's into guys, that is what is normal in the view of most people. And in the case a woman is with a woman, when people first meet her, most assume without much of thought, she has to be lesbian. Although if she later dates a guy, then it was just a phase, an experiment, and now she is back into being into only guys. Statistically it might be right to assume, someone is heterosexual, but when it comes down to the individual, you never can be sure, to which group that person belongs, can be one or the other or something different. But we are used to assume that people are heterosexual until proven otherwise. As a bisexual I have experience that often enough not even telling is prove enough for some, you have to have dates with women and men to have the right to claim, you are bisexual. And even then some people tell you, it might be just a phase, especially young people get to hear that.

 

If on a show, in fiction a man shows interest in a man, a woman in a woman without any hints, without any forewarning, people often say that it was contrived, forced, at best that it was coming out of the blue. You never have to hint at someone to be heterosexual, because we normally assume they are. At best then we say, that relationship came out of the blue, but not that their sexual orientation did.

 

The writers didn't need to show hints earlier, aside that many might have missed such hints anyway unless they were as obvious as Red telling, she's attracted to a woman, or showing her cuddling with one unmistakably intimately (otherwise, people could still claim, it was only friendship), because most people are rather blind to such hints if they are not looking for someone being bisexual or lesbian. As explained above, it's common not to look for it.

 

See, I say, even if a character is shown with a boyfriend/girlfriend so far all times, you still can be bisexual unless the character herself/himself identifies as being exclusively into men/women and never has any doubts about it. That is what makes more diversity possible with a lot less useless effort of tons of planning over a couple of episodes or even seasons. It makes it possible to work with characters who already are a part of the story, who you don't have to introduce to the world. Otherwise, the only way you could achieve more diversity in this matter, aside from planning and establishing it unmistakably from the very beginning, is to bring in new characters. And looking at how reactions are now towards Dorothy you then risk as much people saying, they only brought the character in to fulfill some representation quota. Even a show like Sense8 is accused by people of forcing queer characters into a story, of being contrived, and that show is very much about diversity and those characters were introduced as queer from the beginning, it is an integral part of who they are but by far not all they are. Some complaint, that there was too much gay in the show, too much about being gay, the characters should be at least just queer by the way and their queerness not that much a part of their stories. never can do it right.

 

There is nothing unrealistic of people discovering even late in their lives, that they can be attracted to someone of the same gender. Some people know early, they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, some might have a hunch, but never have a surrounding supporting it but more blocking the very idea of it. Others indeed never felt so far attracted but then there is that one woman giving them feelings they as a woman never had for women. Some talk about their attractions, many don't, so there are a lot of people, even close friends, family, who have no idea until they do show up with someone of the same gender

 

A&E obviously had no concrete plans from day 1 on, not over the course of now 4 seasons, who and how to work into a show a (happy) queer couple. Sadly. I don't know if they would have come to that without some pressure, without it being quite visible that the show has fans among LGBTQI. Maybe it is even a sad attempt to appease queer fans, hoping in vain even the most determined SwanQueen fans would take it at least somewhat well. Expectations ran high, and they didn't do much to calm them down, to keep things open and not spoil too much, so it has somewhat the taste of queerbaiting. The characters are not main characters, they are not even that important or at least regular for a half season story arc, and the story is still a sideshow. And different from what most expected it was done pretty much all in one single episode, a sort of Snowing replica in fast motion, which the writers I guess thought of as brilliant idea, but was taken rather as cheap and uncreative copy by many, not least because of glaring plot holes or (from some people's point of view) inexplicable development of things.

 

If it were Red's first time to be attracted to a woman would that have needed more development from zero to true love? No, why should that be on this show where fairy dust can predict true love? Where a dance is all that it takes to fall in love? Red had been romantically involved with someone before, so why shouldn't she have a sense what her feelings are for Dorothy? Because feeling love for a woman would be any different? Because loving a woman is something that she couldn't have imagined happening to her? Why should that be? Because the Enchanted Forest is as much of a place like ours, where lesbian, gay love is something a majority of people still treats as something special, something different from the norm, the norm that is men and women falling in love and marrying? Would be more of a story have been important in the reality of the characters or is it more about the reality of the audience? Obviously, plenty of people struggle to embrace the love of two women regardless if they have been introduced or shown ages before as being attracted to women or not. Is it, that most of the audience would need more time to wrap their heads around something that they hadn't considered before, that Red might be not just into guys, as they so readily assumed because of our society suggesting it's normal? Is it the characters or the audience who need time to get that Red is not the hot heterosexual but a hot bisexual woman, and in love with now Dorothy and not some guy, who was just dropped into the scenery?

 

Yes, they made use of one of the at the moment unattached recurring characters, they could have used even two of them, Mulan and Red. Does that mean, if you don't have a boyfriend at all times, you have to become the lesbian? Why should that be? Would it have been better if they would have taken one of those attached to a guy right now, break their relationship up, Emma or Regina for example? Make them discover, oh, sorry, dear Hook, or dear Robin, I was wrong, you're a good guy, but my true love is this woman I now met, sorry? Or would it have been better to throw just some one-off new characters in and be done with it, no burden with other expectations for the characters, other ships already blooming, no missing declarations of being attracted to women and men to give a warning of what to come. Right, they could have used Mulan instead, not be so overreaching and "turn" even a second recurring and liked character into a bisexual woman. Couldn' they have stick to that one, they already had with Mulan, and find one new character to not get even more in the way with head canons people have?

 

Aside from the usual shortcomings of this show, like uneven character development and uneven timing, plot dragging, missing important dialogues, magical solutions, etc., I only find it sad, that we don't get a queer couple, that is a regular part of the show now, and not at best just a dropping by on a spell once in a blue moon. So I don't call it big progress, but still appreciate, they gave us a queer true love's kiss having the power to break a curse. A kiss with the power to break a curse - for LGBTQI that can have a meaning going beyond a simple fairy tale love story. And even more, we have Red and Dorothy in love, and there is with Mulan one more women who had feelings for a woman and might find happiness with a woman. We have, aside from a lesbian-bisexual romance, now at the same time the friendship of two lesbian/bisexual women. They could have done much, much better, but for this show, for these writers, they did a lot.

 

Concerning bisexual women as TV trope and being ongoing. No, it's not ongoing, that women are portrayed as bisexual. What is ongoing, is that of the women shown in relationships with women many are are portrayed as being bisexual. Indeed, the "great" thing is, that this keeps these women available as material for the usual male protagonist, heroes of TV shows, most shows still are male-centric, and have at least one male lead and more likely no female co-lead even. It could even be good for a nice extra drama, of a guy freaking out about his girlfriend leaving him for a woman, what a downer for his masculinity. Quite regular can get even the impression, that those women are not even bisexual but bicurious, just experimenting, either as young college girls in their best years of figuring things out or as housewives in middle-life crisis

 

Katy Perry's famous song "I kissed a girl" is sadly a prime example of the common bicurious woman trope in pop-culture. It's an "experimental game" she sings, that she is not in love "tonight" and hopes her boyfriend doesn't mind it. In the music video she wakes up in the end in bed at the side of her sleeping boyfriend. And that song is called by some a lesbian hymn, ironic.

 

The problem is not, that if there are women falling in love with women at all that many of them are bisexual (it might be even realistic, that more are bisexual than lesbian), but that most of the bisexual woman don't have a happy ending with a woman, that if they are so lucky not to get killed, they are only temporarily with a woman and get back to the guy or get a guy as happy ending.

 

It doesn't mean that all women are in secret bisexual. Not all women are in fiction at some point loving woman, but most of the woman that are shown to be attracted to or in love with some either had before relationships with men, have afterward, or the relationship with the woman was an exception anyway. 28% of LGBTQI characters on scripted TV are bisexual (mind of the LGBTQI characters), among them twice as many women But There are still enough women around shown to have only relationships with men.

 

Yes, there is a thing with the male gaze, where women being intimate with women is taken as titillating for men. There is in industry producing films just for that, making me cringe every time I see those women with their long fingernails, very obvious not made for and quite likely not by lesbians or bisexual women. Blue Is the Warmest Color was by some praised as good film but there was criticism as well that it was rather a very long male gaze movie not living up to the original graphic novel.

 

People find it less repelling to watch women be intimate (unless they use certain toys, Sense8 made some people feel uncomfortable, but I'm rather sure those people never have watched the British TV show Lipservice). They find the thought of women being intimate not as much as a threat, maybe because women are taken as less serious characters anyway, maybe because women are seen as more emotional and into people anyway, so female friendship might be a bit more intimate anyway without denying the normality of true, real love being usually between men and women. Meanwhile, men are less portrayed as bisexual, because many people believe that there hardly are bisexual men, they are only closeted gays, not yet ready to accept or stand by that they are into guys. It is a threat to masculine ideas of brotherhood. Bromance, okay, that is something that people can live with, guys being somewhat physical even but without the slightest idea of sexual interest. Men are not messy and undecided, they are straight, one way or the other, they can't be somewhere in between. Women are emotionally messy anyway, it's not as necessary to have a clear line there.

 

tl;tr

Saying, they never hinted at Red being bisexual, so what they did now is forced, is a view, falling for taking heterosexual as the normal, and everything else as something, that needs more elaborate introduction and explanation, so that everyone gets it. In my opinion, then it is not surprising when writers hesitate to write gay, lesbian, bisexual characters, because they need extra treatment one way or the other. You don't just have to make plausible, that they are in love with someone, but that this character is in love with a person of the same gender. We are still far, far away from a new normal.

Edited April 23, 2016 by myril

[blugirlami21]

I'm not certain that I am holding Red to any different standard than I would any other character on the show.  I'm as open minded as they come and I fully support any character discovering that they may like another character of the same sex.  I would expect any character whether they were straight, bi, or lesbian/gay to show any indication of it one way or another.  For me everyone is a clean slate sexually until they say or do something that would make them lean in a direction. In Ruby's case I don't feel that her bisexualism or lack thereof was given any thought or weight so her sudden lesbianism is going to be given the same thought and weight from me as a viewer.

 

 

Did they had to establish her as bisexual from season 1 on, or at least earlier than this episode? I ask the question differently: Did they explicitly establish her as heterosexual? Did Red ever say she was exclusively into guys?

 

Did they ever say she wasn't?  That more than anything else is my problem with this story line for Ruby.  It would be an issue with whatever character they chose to be in the lgbt relationship because they didn't really put any real thought into it.  I'm all for lgbt characters to be seen as the norm but that doesn't mean that I'm supposed to accept shoddy character development for it to happen.  I would say shows like sense8 and grey's anatomy for example do a great job of establishing lgbt characters as being completely natural and normal, which they are, without it coming out of left field.  That just proves to me that it can be done well and it was not in the case of Ruby on Ouat.

[Faemonic]

You never have to hint at someone to be heterosexual, because we normally assume they are. At best then we say, that relationship came out of the blue, but not that their sexual orientation did.

I concur.

 

For this show specifically, though, I wonder how much is the audience assuming that the characters are heterosexual, and how much is the writers assuming from the first episode of the series that all the characters are heterosexual and always will be.

 

The stiltedness usually shows with relationships across the board, like, you know that feeling when someone wants to take your picture on vacation and tells you to act natural, and then you realize that you don't know what you usually do with your hands? It's like TS;TW for gaslighting and emotionally abusing an adopted son, estranged babydaddy now engaged, sibling rivalry, in a relationship with someone who has an substance abuse addiction (or whatever magic powers are a metaphor for), in a new relationship after one's first love died tragically. How do you script people?? lol so boring look shiny plot point!

 

So, a romance between two ladies must be a colour out of space to These Writers. It's a shame that audiences in this day and age can mostly only parse this as a political standpoint rather than a human experience, but this was never going to be the show to do the world one better. I am surprised by the spoilers that it's Ruby/Dorothy rather than Ruby/Mulan, so I must retract any and all claims I've made that this show has gotten offensively predictable.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Faemonic

[myril]

I'm not certain that I am holding Red to any different standard than I would any other character on the show.  I'm as open minded as they come and I fully support any character discovering that they may like another character of the same sex.  I would expect any character whether they were straight, bi, or lesbian/gay to show any indication of it one way or another.  For me everyone is a clean slate sexually until they say or do something that would make them lean in a direction. In Ruby's case I don't feel that her bisexualism or lack thereof was given any thought or weight so her sudden lesbianism is going to be given the same thought and weight from me as a viewer.

 

 

Did they ever say she wasn't?  That more than anything else is my problem with this story line for Ruby.  It would be an issue with whatever character they chose to be in the lgbt relationship because they didn't really put any real thought into it.  I'm all for lgbt characters to be seen as the norm but that doesn't mean that I'm supposed to accept shoddy character development for it to happen.  I would say shows like sense8 and grey's anatomy for example do a great job of establishing lgbt characters as being completely natural and normal, which they are, without it coming out of left field.  That just proves to me that it can be done well and it was not in the case of Ruby on Ouat.

I am sure you want to be an open minded person in this and unbiased, I assume all here want to be, but no one is unbiased. Even I am biased, and not just biased because I am an out and proud queer person and so see things with a rather queer bias, but I as well had and still have even plenty of societal images in my head, defining what is normal in society, if I want that or not. I had to overcome a lot of these images in my life to feel comfortable and good with myself and to know myself. It's like curses, at times we are not even aware we are cursed. Sometimes we can't break those curses alone, it takes some help eventually and strong magic to get out of it. And it's not one single big curse we can get rid of at once, it's a big bucket full of curses, each working on its own but as well they support each other. Many of those curses are inherited, no one can remember how they came to be, they just are on us. And they are something we mostly don't put willingly on ourselves, it comes from outside, or feels like they do.

Snow didn't need to discover, that she is into men, she was in our minds already heterosexual and still is regardless that she never gave an explanation, never said something about it, and was never shown as rejecting a woman. There never had to be character development about Snow being heterosexual, never needed any musing or talks or whatever of Snow coming to terms with her being as a woman into a man. They didn't have to give any thought about that, just about, that Snow is into Charming. No, not even that, because in most people's minds those two were already an item before OUaT became a show.

Belle hadn't to discover, that she is into men, but I am rather sure that most assume she is, that she is heterosexual. As most assume that Emma and Regina can't be anything but because they have only been shown with men. As some noted, they could randomly take any character, who we didn't have on our radar to suddenly fall in love as woman with a woman, or as man with a man. Yes, they could, and it's okay. It's an unsettling thought, that things are not as straight as we prefer (pun intended), that a character might be not quite what we thought, turns out to be different in a rather important part of our individual identities, in their sexuality, different from us. Better give a warning about that, so people would be less upset, can make sense of it.

What I see her on the forum and other places, many wanted the writers had given thoughts in Red being interested in women, not just about Red being in love with someone. Either, because people need to wrap their heads around Ruby being bisexual and not as they thought hetero, but many as well because they feel a need that people accept and understand that Red could very well be into men and women and always has been. Either way, it means giving not just thoughts about Red being a someone falling in love with someone, but as much if not more thought about the gender of the person she falls in love with.

People have somewhat accepted the idea by now, that Mulan had feelings for Aurora, accepting looking back, that scenes could very well be interpreted as showing such feelings, but there are still enough people denying, that Mulan was in love with Aurora. And enough people argued, how can that be, where is the explanation, the development, Mulan was obviously into Philip according to them, wasn't he, and Mulan was never before shown on the show to be into women, and not in even flashbacks being into women, it came out of the blue. And of course they have to make the one at the moment unattached woman the lesbian, and of course the warrior type, that is annoying, a trope, they should have avoided. I see here a pattern at work, a pattern in audience perception, fans' reactions.

No one cares about Dorothy that much, because people haven't connected with her much at all so far as a character on the show. But what do you think would be, if she had been around longer, and not shown to be in any relations, her sexuality not been an issue so far? As an icon character there are people not liking the idea, probably being unaware that Dorothy is a gay icon and even more, that there have been some eyeing the relationship with Prince/Princess Ozma as a possible LGBTQI story in the Oz world. And I have seen a few complaining, that of course they had to make Dorothy a gruff, harsh woman and warrior type. Do lesbians always have to be like that, couldn't they make her more friendly, more lipstick cute one for a change?Meanwhile people complain, that on plenty of other shows (real life dramas) lesbians are more lipstick cute femme and too seldom butch types, go figure.

 

Now picture them bringing Mulan and Dorothy together. The lesbian warrior duo. Wouldn't have been right either.

I remember some people struggling with Callie's development at Grey's anatomy, it was not accepted right away by everybody, some argued, that she was in love with men before and shown only fooling around with men, and she can't all of a sudden be a lesbian - people always struggle with the concept of bisexuality. Coming out and embracing it and being accepted for it by friends and co-workers and family was a part of Callie's story, and that was okay, it was an unobtrusive coming out story, but still a coming out story. Of course by now everybody got more or less used to it, and Grey's knows to keep Callie mostly away from flirting with guys to not confuse audience now again, so it's not a big deal anymore on that show.

But coming out doesn't always have to be a part of the character's story, for the characters in their fictional reality it might be no issue at all.

You need an explanation for Red to be something you didn't expect her to be at all, because the thought never crossed your mind before, that she could be bisexual. I had that thought before and I don't need an explanation an coming out moment, and think I am not the only one in this.

You likely might be right, that this thought might have not crossed the minds of the writers before season 5 either. They never had to think about making a character heterosexual, because that is the normal, only eventually how to explain why this woman and that man fall in love with each other, not with someone else.

Red didn't get any special treatment ín this, she was treated like any other character, her sexuality needed no explanation. The story written for the show is not about Ruby being now bisexual, it is about Ruby being all of a sudden in love with someone whatever gender that person has, and that love story was not well developed. They could have dropped some male Donald into the woods of Oz and it wouldn't make more sense.

But many make it sound as if Ruby being now bisexual is at least as much of an issue as Ruby getting a true love's kiss with little development of a story. Many do struggle with Ruby being not what they assumed so far, not heterosexual like characters usually are. I am there with you, that this love story was somewhat rushed, but I am not there with you that part of the problem were Ruby being bisexual without any preparation, without coming out story and no wondering on the side of the characters about Ruby loving a woman.

I think you do hold Red's story to a different standard, when you are saying, you don't get why Red is bisexual, you don't feel it, you see it as coming out of the left field, instead of saying, you didn't see it coming, that Red would fall in love in just an episode. Red being bisexual is not the issue, her love story being cramped into one episode is.

A&E said they wouldn't do a special but a love story just like any other they've done, and they did that. No coming out story, but Red falling in love with Dorothy, and both characters happen to be women. And no, it was not a well crafted five-episode-dinner served with thought and love for detail, it was just the usual mediocre OUaT diet.

Edited April 23, 2016 by myril

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know if the conversation is for this thread specifically, but I've been wondering about the "norm" in the Enchanted Forest regarding sexuality.

 

Dorothy was clearly miserable in 5x16, and they never come out right and say it, but part of her misery is that she didn't fit in in Kansas anymore. After she went back there, people thought she was crazy, and tried to have her locked up. But she had her Aunt Em who was in her corner. The thing is, they never go further into explaining why she's unhappy. If it's just the crazy label, or if there's more than that. 

 

Imagine that, the girl claims she went to a different land where magic exists, sat around a table with witches, melted one, and clicked her heels to get back home, what would those same people that wanna lock her up think if she came out as LGBTQ. They already thought she was weird, and probably cray-cray.

 

And Red was not entirely happy with her life in Storybrooke because she wanted to be around people that are like her, so she went looking for her pack, even though the first time she went looking/stumbled upon them didn't go very well for her.

 

This is where I think there was a missed opportunity in developing the relationship AND the characters, where there's these two women, that don't feel they fit in, are unsure where their place in the world is, and it's not what they think it might be because they're not really open to that possibility.

 

I thought Mulan was very much open to the possibility that she might be in love with Aurora. 

 

Red seemed a bit freaked out at the possibility of being in love with Dorothy because the feeling was intense, and I can buy that she's never felt that way before for anyone, including Peter, and she was scared. But I knew that because she and Snow got to talk, and there was a nice character moment.

 

Dorothy, I got nothing from her. 

 

This whole relationship could have been a nice B story (because they were never going to spend that much time on it anyway because CRISIS, and they hate giving characters actual development through conversations). 

[Rumsy4]

Imagine an alternate universe where the title of last night's episode was "Brothers", and it focussed on the sibling relationship between David and James. Ruth is in Underbrooke becasue her unfinished business is James. And she attempts to reconcile with the son she gave away. I don't see it ending much differently for James however. He seems the kind of guy who would have attempted to push his mother and brother into the River of Lost Souls. 

[InsertWordHere]

They could have kept the episode exactly as it was and just called it "Siblings."

[Camera One]

I was reading a review which said they felt the David/James stuff felt "tacked on" compared to the "fabulous" Zelena/Regina/Cora material.  I guess the title reflects how unbalanced those two plots were.  

 

There were a lot of similarities they could have played on... Zelena lived a lowly existence, much like David.  Though we never saw Young Zelena reacting to being in such a wealthy environment.  We know that as adults, Zelena was deeply jealous of Regina, while David had no envy for James' life and even rejected it for awhile. which was an interesting difference.  

 

I wish the writers were actually interested in developing sibling relationships, but the only time they've done so in the past is Elsa/Anna, which was when they pretty much were forced to.

[KAOS Agent]

What do you mean they don't develop sibling relationships?  Zelena and Regina are totally sisters and besties now. That three hours they spent together as kids completely wiped away the part where they tried to kill each other and Zelena raped Regina's boyfriend and had a baby with him. They hugged it out and it's all good now. "Sisters" completely nailed the sibling development. 

[KingOfHearts]

"Mother" handled the multiple-relationship angle well. You had Zelena and Regina with Cora issues, Lily with Maleficent issues, Emma with Snow issues, etc. I agree that the David/James conflict felt "tacked on". The dream stuff for Emma in 5x17 and most of 5x18 felt "tacked on" as well. Why are subplots always so forced?

Edited April 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Zelena and Regina are totally sisters and besties now. That three hours they spent together as kids completely wiped away the part where they tried to kill each other and Zelena raped Regina's boyfriend and had a baby with him.

Suddenly, the insta-True Love between Red and Dorothy doesn't seem so bad.

[Rumsy4]

I’m really disappointed that the writers have completely flipped their initial concept of the importance of found families. With Zelena’s inevitable redemption and integration with the core group, the only character in the main group now not connected by blood and/or marriage to one or more of the other characters is Killian. I don't like this obsession the characters seem to have to redeem villains becasue they are "family", and give them chance after chance. 

The other aspect of poor relationship building in this show is that the characters seem to form lifelong bonds in a few short hours. Emma met Lily two times in her childhood. Emma stayed with Ingrid how long? A week? A month? Same with Neal. I doubt their relationship lasted more than a couple of months. And yet, we're supposed to believe these were all deep and impactful relationships for Emma. Red and Dorothy develop True Love in a few short hours. Regina and Zelena and insta BFFs now becasue they played with each other for a few hours in their childhood. There's lazy writing. Then there's this. 

[KAOS Agent]

43 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Emma stayed with Ingrid how long? A week? A month?

Emma was with Ingrid for six months, which she said was way longer than any other place she'd stayed. For a kid starving for love and attention, that's a pretty significant amount of time to form a bond. What was sad about that whole thing was that Emma was never allowed to show any reaction or emotion about finding out the truth after regaining her memories and dealing with that loss. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

The other aspect of poor relationship building in this show is that the characters seem to form lifelong bonds in a few short hours.

That's a really odd thing about this show.  They seem to have character relationships that tilt heavily towards milestones and big moments and insta-relationships, but they get nothing else. Regina and Rumple might as well be in relationships with ciphers for all the attention they pay to creating a connection between them and their significant other. 

But then you've got others that it sometimes feels like they are allergic to showing milestones, like Captain Swan.  Its like they think viewers are just watching in anticipation of a big moment and when they show it the audience will be satisfied and tune out.  So they almost never do it.  But Captain Swan gets much better smaller moments.  Not a lot of them, except relative to other characters that get none, but much better.

Given a choice, I'd pick small moments that build a relationship slowly; but still wish for a better all around balance.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

Emma was with Ingrid for six months, which she said was way longer than any other place she'd stayed. For a kid starving for love and attention, that's a pretty significant amount of time to form a bond. What was sad about that whole thing was that Emma was never allowed to show any reaction or emotion about finding out the truth after regaining her memories and dealing with that loss. 

I forgot it was six months. But their relationship did not end well. So, it was ridiculous of Ingrid to think Emma would automatically start loving her and accept her as her sister once she got her memories back. Yeah--I too am sad Emma was not allowed to react to getting her memories back.

[Camera One]

Quote

The other aspect of poor relationship building in this show is that the characters seem to form lifelong bonds in a few short hours.

 

This is not a problem with the show.  It's a problem with the world we live in.  Hope that helps.  Love, A&E.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Camera One

[Mari]

29 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

 But their relationship did not end well. So, it was ridiculous of Ingrid to think Emma would automatically start loving her and accept her as her sister once she got her memories back. 

I can understand a little of it.  Ingrid was unstable and desperate for a family.  It is possible she figured that when Emma saw Ingrid had been right--that Emma had magic, and was doing all that for them to be together she would understand, and accept Ingrid's pushing her before she ran away.

[Dianthus]

For some odd reason, it's become part of my head canon that Liam is/was gay. Of course, A & E had to throw an otherwise inoffensive character under a big ol' bus, all so Killian could learn a very important lesson. #StillBitter