Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[HoodlumSheep]

This is from the interview I linked in the media thread. I think it explains the writing for Snowing quite well. They are in a happy relationship, so they are boring and they are not interested in them. Kitsis doesn't even mention them here.

I love (that's a lie) how Snowing isn't even mentioned. I get that they're married, but that shouldn't mean that their relationship is over and not ongoing????

[Faemonic]

I love (that's a lie) how Snowing isn't even mentioned. I get that they're married, but that shouldn't mean that their relationship is over and not ongoing????

I thought that they might have been going somewhere interesting back in Season 2A with almost-arguing over whether to get a house in Storybrooke or return to their palace in the Enchanted Forest. That was never picked up on again. First it was, "I don't think Emma will go with us, so let's stay in the Land Without Magic," then "I'd happily stay with you in Neverland dodging Lost Boys (forget Emma, she's a grown-ass woman)" then both of them being half-hearted, and Snowflake. I guess they get episodes that develop their individual...characters...and relationships with people who aren't each other? ("Bleeding Through" for Snow...I guess; "The Tower" or "White Out" for Charming). Otherwise--and neither of those episodes I named are my favorites--Snowing isn't exactly a dynamic duo.

[Mari]

But, this arc would have been perfect to bring David and Snow into prominence for a while, and focus on their relationship, as well as their relationship with Emma.  It would only be natural that they would have different ideas on what to do about Dark Swan, and who/what is responsible for it.  

 

If A&E believe relationship angst is necessary, this arc would easily have supplied some of that, if they were willing to, you know, allow Emma, David, and Snow to occasionally have scenes with each other.

 

And it would have been more authentic to what was going on in the show, instead of bizarre scenes where they parent Snow's stepmother, who for some reason lied her rear end off about not being able to dance.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

Snowing isn't exactly a dynamic duo.

 

They could be if they wrote them as such and let them be.

 

Before the season started, after SDCC, the writers, plus Ginny and Josh were saying there would be conflict between Snowing on how to help Emma. They were supposed to butt heads over this. 

 

I was really happy, because I thought we would get something substantial that would I don't know, put a chink in the Snowing armor. I'm all for true love, but this seemed to be important. No, not all couples/parents agree on everything, and I was hoping David would grow a pair, and stand his ground.

 

But really, they had an argument, they made up off screen, turned out David was wrong, and Snow was right, and that was the end of that.

 

My balloon was popped, I thought the whole thing sucked. The conflict didn't even last a whole episode.

[Camera One]

Snowing could have been such a dynamic duo.  It's sad to think of what they *could* have been, based on what we saw in Season 1. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

All the CS feels!!!

Anyways, happy for some Captain Cobra, and I actually enjoyed the little bit of Captain Wicked dynamic we had in this episode.

Also, I wonder why Zelena's sticking with Arthur in Camelot. This is based on just viewing half of the double episode (I was unable to watch the Merida half, so I'll do so tomorrow). When Arthur freed her of the bindings she could have easily poofed herself away and left Arthur stranded with the heroes...but she didn't and now I'm lowkey shipping Wicked King even more than I was last week. i can't help it.

Does she see a use or him? Or is she just teaming up with him because they have the same enemies??? I like their dynamic.

Edited November 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Faemonic]

Mulan Rouge, the new pairing name for Mulan and Red Riding Hood, apparently A&E "confirmed" that they'll be a thing in S5B. Hmm... if This Show were more like season one, or even early season two with Sleeping Warrior, I wouldn't be so apprehensive. I think I ranted enough about Sleeping Warrior being a self-congratulatory load of nothing if the showrunners wanted to go there without actually going there.

 

But it's even par for the course with all the romantic relationships. Snowing's a snooze nowadays, Swan Thief got cut off way too soon, Outlaw Queen and Henlet(?)...what happened in those ones sorry I blinked.

 

If I could have faith that Mulan Rouge weren't only phenomenally lovely raven-haired ladies with excellent bone structure getting slapped together for fanservice, I'd be so there. But what's going to happen? Is Granny going to disapprove because she won't get great-grandkids who are also werewolves, or because that Belle was smarter and not all muscle and would have made a much better girlfriend? Is Mulan going to get a Storybrooke identity and juggle that with her girlfriend's ex-boyfriends or Ruby's previous reputation as the town bike so Mulan'll wonder constantly if she's just somebody else's sexual experiment? Will there be any buildup at all?

 

Or will they go OH NO JAMES WOODS' HADES IS HERE hit him with magic hit him do eet *the Mulan Rouge has TLK suddenly because of no reasons mebbe nukuler fairy dust*

[Camera One]

I like Mulan and I like Red, but I didn't feel that type of chemistry there at all.  It just doesn't feel organic to me.  Since when did Red have a yearning to find her wolf clan anyway?  

[Rumsy4]

Since when did Red have a yearning to find her wolf clan anyway?

I know!! We had a whole episode in S2 to show us that Red chose her friends as family over her real family. It's annoying when the writers don't pay attention to their own characterizations.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ maybe she realized that most of her closest friends have forgotten her existence/made questionable "friend" choices, and so she decides to leave before she gets sucked into the madness too?

[mjgchick]

Seriously, Snow dropped Red for the woman they all fought against. I don't blame her for wanting to go back since cray cray is in Storybooke.

 

It's going to be insane when Mulan and Red sees who are the new Dark One's. lol Mulan will in particularly be confused on why Emma wants to save Hook.

Edited November 16, 2015 by mjgchick

[myril]

Mulan Rouge, the new pairing name for Mulan and Red Riding Hood, apparently A&E "confirmed" that they'll be a thing in S5B. Hmm... if This Show were more like season one, or even early season two with Sleeping Warrior, I wouldn't be so apprehensive. I think I ranted enough about Sleeping Warrior being a self-congratulatory load of nothing if the showrunners wanted to go there without actually going there.

 

But it's even par for the course with all the romantic relationships. Snowing's a snooze nowadays, Swan Thief got cut off way too soon, Outlaw Queen and Henlet(?)...what happened in those ones sorry I blinked.

 

If I could have faith that Mulan Rouge weren't only phenomenally lovely raven-haired ladies with excellent bone structure getting slapped together for fanservice, I'd be so there. But what's going to happen? Is Granny going to disapprove because she won't get great-grandkids who are also werewolves, or because that Belle was smarter and not all muscle and would have made a much better girlfriend? Is Mulan going to get a Storybrooke identity and juggle that with her girlfriend's ex-boyfriends or Ruby's previous reputation as the town bike so Mulan'll wonder constantly if she's just somebody else's sexual experiment? Will there be any buildup at all?

 

Or will they go OH NO JAMES WOODS' HADES IS HERE hit him with magic hit him do eet *the Mulan Rouge has TLK suddenly because of no reasons mebbe nukuler fairy dust*

 

 

I don't know at this point what to make of what they've shown in The Bear King. Is that really meant to develop into a romantic relationships?

Not that I wouldn't like it, the opposite, had RedWarrior on my list since Mulan disappeared to Offscreenville or Whereverland, spinning they could run into each other and decide to go after some gadget, answers, some adventure together and discover feelings for each other. It made some sense to me to pair those two, both being somewhat isolated, Mulan because she felt she had to leave the people she cared about and felt loyal to for their and her own sake, Red because with her being a werewolf the return of magic was an ambiguous thing and her best friend was busy with keeping her own family together and alive, barely seeming to remember, she had a friend like Red.

 

Aside that I can see why Mulan and Red could feel attraction and find a lot in each other to find happiness, it is though a good question what is going to happen with them on the show. Frankly, I think nothing. This show is not going to change for these two, it will not lose its attention deficit syndrome, they will not stop throwing new characters, recurring guest stars for a half season arc or longer in, go on to play big with the newest shiny toy they could get their hands on, while they have with the regular cast already plenty of A stories to fill besides those new shiny toy pomp. Unless they would take a breather and significantly slow down, be so bold to push aside someone from the regular cast or at least forgo to bring in new recurring characters, Mulan and Red will have to be satisfied to take some D or E story line happening in the background, if any at all. Maybe they get one more episode like this one, where at the end a new magical gadget is brought up, just so it's not a total waste for the bigger story arc. Yep, I am pessimistic.

 

But I am still not even any sure if they are going for romance with Mulan and Red. With this show it's healthier to keep expectations and hopes low, particular in this case, and maybe wait and see. I am not going to beg them, or campaign and threaten them, for getting this love story. This show is just not worth that much passion to me anymore.

 

I like your suggestions though.

 

from another thread

In addition, was there ever any hint that Aurora is attracted to women? I don't remember that being explicitly stated (although I admit it's been so long that I may have just forgotten). If Aurora is not attracted to women then she was never Mulan's to lose, regardless of whether Mulan decided to say something or not about her feelings to Aurora. If Aurora isn't attracted to women, then Mulan confessing her feelings was not going to magically make her bisexual or a lesbian.

Think to get a heart broken it doesn't matter, if the other person answers your feelings. Not to mention feelings have a tendency to defy reason often enough. So we might reason Aurora might never have answered the feelings the same way, but that doesn't magically erase the feelings Mulan had for her.

 

As I see it's not about if Aurora could be interested in women or not, but that Aurora is simply in love with another human being, with Philip. A person fell in love with the romantic partner of a companion/good friend, that is the broken heart story here. I don't think that it matters  for the story itself which genders were involved, if any of them had shown any interest before to any other gender than the one they feel attracted and in love to at the moment. That matters only in our reality as audience as a question of more diverse representation. Unless of course it would become an issue inside of the OUaT universe reality itself, showing a society as much struggling in these matters of tolerance and acceptance of gay, lesbian, transgender, intersexual, queer people as our societies do.

 

That is the point the writers should at least make, and they might even try to do that, when I look at that interview with Hollywoodreporter: A love like any other love on the show. So the drama is not about which gender someone might be attracted to or not, might have been before or might be sometime after, but simply about being attracted to a person and if those feelings are answered or not and what comes out of that.

[Shanna Marie]

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but have been thinking more about it, and wow, but the people in this show have the emotional resilience of a toddler -- every little relationship setback is LIFE RUINING, and they act out with massive (often deadly) tantrums and do massive moral turns, then frequently forget all this when the next shiny thing comes along.

 

So we have Regina, whose LIFE IS RUINED when the wife of her boyfriend of two days turns out to be still alive. We have Zelena, who wants to rewrite history when Rumple doesn't want her to cast the curse (never mind that his reasoning is he doesn't want his heart to be crushed). We have Henry, so heartbroken that his tears are literally magical when a girl he's known for a couple of days just wants to be his friend. And now we have Mulan, who's so devastated that she gives up on her moral code of honor when the woman who was engaged to a guy who was able to break a curse with a True Love's Kiss with her when Mulan met her turned out to be pregnant before Mulan could tell her she loved her. (What would she have done if Aurora hadn't been pregnant, try to break up Aurora's relationship with Philip?)

 

I guess you could also include Hook and Regina totally changing personalities when people they loved were killed.

 

I know you need heightened emotion for drama, but can't the characters have at least a little emotional resilience and maturity?

 

On another note, why haven't we had any of the scenes of Hook and Henry bonding? We've seen so little of them together, and it's been lurching from point to point, even though apparently they've become close enough offscreen to have teamed up on an operation to find a dream home for them to move into together as a family. What have we seen onscreen? Henry told Emma he wasn't okay with her asking Hook out, but he wanted her to be happy. There was a mention of an offscreen sailing trip. Under the shattered sight spell, Henry called Hook a "dirty (or was it filthy?) pirate" and expressed displeasure that he was with his mom. In the AU, Henry went to Hook for help rescuing Emma and told him Hook had taught him to sail. They teamed up to break Zelena out of jail. Hook teased Henry about his girlfriend. That's it. But now they're dream home shopping together. You know, all of the stuff that happened would have had a lot more emotional resonance if we'd seen even a glimpse of it. As it was, I still wasn't entirely sure what Henry thought about Hook or about Hook dating Emma. If you don't know how the characters feel, it's hard to know how what's going on affects them. As of this episode, it seems as though Henry has lost both his mom and his would-be stepdad to the darkness -- is this actually devastating to him on both counts?

[mjgchick]

Red and Mulan started off with basically how Snowing and Captain Swan did. Both ended up going on an adventure for weird fairytale shit. The thing is what does A&E do with them in 5B? I honestly hope we end up seeing them in SB. I'd love to see Mulan in our world with a cellphone. Also working with Emma and David in the sheriff station because two people being the sheriff still makes no sense to me and having just two people work as the law enforcements makes even less sense to me.

Edited November 16, 2015 by mjgchick

[Spartan Girl]

I can get behind Red Warrior. Two badass female fighters together would be a lot of fun.

Mulan is a lot more likable when she demonstrates a personality (and actual emotions). She was certainly giving Red the old eyeball when she transformed. She's DEFINITELY interested. Hee.

[mjgchick]

I loved when Mulan said "I wasn't moping." (Reminds me of Emma's prickly line.) lol Jamie played that well. Her face light up when she say Red's face and then my face lit up. lol

Edited November 17, 2015 by mjgchick

[tennisgurl]

If Red and Mulan became a thing, I could get behind it. Honestly, I was disappointed we didn't get more of them. 

[chrisvee]

I thought Mulan and Merida had more chemistry....

[Faemonic]

^ maybe she realized that most of her closest friends have forgotten her existence/made questionable "friend" choices, and so she decides to leave before she gets sucked into the madness too?

Seriously, Snow dropped Red for the woman they all fought against. I don't blame her for wanting to go back since cray cray is in Storybooke.

Red and Snow's friendship was so awesome. Ruby Lucas was probably closer friends with David Nolan by the time S2B came around, though, unless all the girls' nights out get the #ItHappenedOffscreen treatment. Ruby and Mary Margaret were never shown to be that close even after they got all We Are Both.

 

the people in this show have the emotional resilience of a toddler -- every little relationship setback is LIFE RUINING, and they act out with massive (often deadly) tantrums and do massive moral turns, then frequently forget all this when the next shiny thing comes along.

 

I know you need heightened emotion for drama, but can't the characters have at least a little emotional resilience and maturity?

Whenever I think like that, I remember Adventure Time where Marceline the Vampire Queen had a falling out with her demonic King of Hell father and unpersoned him because...he ate her fries. Except that the showrunners knew that was supposed to be funny for how petty it was.

 

I guess one major theme is that each of these characters have unstable childhoods that they never recovered from, and that leaves them all very thin-skinned and obsessive. So, Daniel might have been devastating to Regina, but what got her ready to get so cracked (and blame 10-year-old Snow) was Cora being so controlling maybe combined with a weak father figure who spoiled Regina.

 

But even though they show some of that, this show never really shows that?

 

I joke like "oh, that's it?" when Vanessa from Penny Dreadful was revealed to have seduced her best friend's fiance, but that everybody hated on her so much for it (before the reveal) that I thought it was something worse. Even she acknowledges that, "It's worse than I deserve, but I cannot forgive myself." But it's Victorian England.

 

Or even go Black Swan about it, Natalie Portman's Black Swan. She cracked because she got a starring role with some scenes she wasn't comfortable with playing. It's a ballet, not some gritty edgy indie movie. But I could believe it because it showed how her mother infantalized her, how the director and her newfound bad girl friend from the ballet company sexualized her, her own fixation with perfectionism, and all of the tensions in life that actually would make a train wreck of a career opportunity.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Faemonic

[Souris]

The term Mulan Rouge has made its way to Leanne Aguilera AND Natalie Abrams!

 

Folks, I think the term is happening!

[Curio]

And I love how these forums can lay claim to inventing it! (That's what I'm going with, anyways.)

[Souris]

And I love how these forums can lay claim to inventing it! (That's what I'm going with, anyways.)

 

I think YOU get claim to it!

[myril]

The term Mulan Rouge has made its way to Leanne Aguilera AND Natalie Abrams!

 

Folks, I think the term is happening!

 

And I will take it as just another sign that for many it's more about pretty faces and drooling over bodies than personality of character. Sorry, just can't find it any kickass as Aguilera does, but find it reductive.

But this show is about punchlines, so go with whatever you prefer.

Edited November 17, 2015 by myril

[Curio]

Do you also remind people about the global warming crisis when we're all enjoying an unusually warm November? ;)

 

I'm just kidding myril, you have every right to interpret it that way. I'll take the rest of my response to the fandom thread.

[OnceUponAJen]

The term Mulan Rouge has made its way to Leanne Aguilera AND Natalie Abrams!

Folks, I think the term is happening!

I saw someone on Twitter mention that it came from Tumblr? I'm not on Tumblr, but I saw it here first....way before anyone mentioned it on Twitter. Edited November 17, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Rumsy4]

Everything makes its way to tumblr, and it gets wrongly sourced as originating there. But I am glad it's become the most popular ship name for Mulan and Red. haha Good job, Curio! ;-)

[myril]

Do you also remind people about the global warming crisis when we're all enjoying an unusually warm November? ;)

 

I'm just kidding myril, you have every right to interpret it that way. I'll take the rest of my response to the fandom thread.

Ye, I do, I am that kind of party pooper ;-) /joking

Not joking that I think that these shipping names on this show and on other often are, well superficial in meaning, not kickass but rather punchlines, and thus reflecting what a lot of shipping is about: Fancying good looking people smooching each other. Maybe we just should be more honest about it. So, okay, keep it.

By the way it's fun to google it. Can find a drag queen with the name Mulan Rouge. And then there is this: http://www.moviesmackdown.com/2012/06/brave-vs-mulan.html

Still wondering what they really wanted to tell with The Bear King and Mulan and Red especially and maybe a possible romantic relationship between them, if they are having one. Shouldn't wonder. But honestly, is it so hard to let Mulan at least say, she waited too long to tell her (Aurora) what she felt instead of letting her say, she waited to long to tell them (who? Aurora, Philip? Both?). Yup another pesky little detail some word geek noticed, a pronoun issue, how nitpicky. But seriously, is it so hard?

This shows claims to be about hope and love, and still doesn't manage to explore diversity of love. Their imagination of love seems sometimes stuck somewhere in a 1950's disneyfied white sub-urban middle-class idyll, but OUaT is a TV show in the 21st century, a show claiming a modern new look at fairy tales. But nothing bold here, just retrogeek fluff. Okay, cheating is no big thing in their imagination neither is having sex without consent, but that is what one could always find behind middle-class facades: double standards. Diversity in love? Of course the writers are tolerant and open minded, but still they shy away to explore it, or it's "just" not important to them to explore it. Instead of making it an inbuilt theme of the show it's sidelined. Yes I can understand the frustration expressed by some SQ shippers, though unfortunately the relatable reasons behind such frustration too often get drowned in SQ discussions in blind obsession with one character.

It's interesting to compare The Bear King episode with Dreamy, which was an episode including two characters falling in love, a love not supported by their cultures, their families, their people. We never heard much about it again after the episode, did we. Okay, Amy Acker is busy elsewhere (and among other things her character on Person of Interest is in love with some hot specialist and assassin who happens to be a woman), but still doubt it would ever have come up again. Funny thing is I liked the episode for being one of the better attempts to a) do some world building, and b) show the world from the perspective of the commoners and not the nobility, getting them in some conflict with their cultures. I think, different from as it looks a majority of fans, that the episode is one of the stronger episodes of OUaT about love and hope, but unfortunately it was isolated from the core tales. There was even hope for a happy ending, for Dreamy/Grumpy and Nova in Storybrooke, but there was no follow-up. That's the problem when sidelining such a story and work with characters and actors you don't work on keeping around.

Now The Bear King. Having the same feeling here. It was different from Dreamy in that we didn't see the falling in love story yet, Mulan and Red (assuming they are meant to fall in love with each other) were only introduced to each other, the seeds are put into place. But like Dreamy the episode felt isolated from the core tales.

But from what I see online can guess, most of the audience is okay with the focus on the shipping galore goo Captain Swan, OutlawQueen, RumBelle, and I say even SwanQueen in a way (though all subtext reading fanwank) have become.

edit: first included Charmings in the shipping goo list, but even they have been sidelined.

Edited November 17, 2015 by myril

[Rumsy4]

Not joking that I think that these shipping names on this show and on other often are, well superficial in meaning, not kickass but rather punchlines, and thus reflecting what a lot of shipping is about: Fancying good looking people smooching each other. Maybe we just should be more honest about it. So, okay, keep it.

Now who's being reductive? Shipping is not mostly about fancying good looking people smooching each other. Or do you think people who ship book characters are dishonest in a different way? ;-) Not everyone is interested in shipping, but quibbling about the deep meaning behind ship names seems like brewing a storm in. a teacup.

I wonder if Mulan and Red will find their way back to Storybrooke next season, or whether the Nevengers will find themselves back in the EF again and meet up with the two of them.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I guess one major theme is that each of these characters have unstable childhoods that they never recovered from, and that leaves them all very thin-skinned and obsessive. So, Daniel might have been devastating to Regina, but what got her ready to get so cracked (and blame 10-year-old Snow) was Cora being so controlling maybe combined with a weak father figure who spoiled Regina.

I do think the unstable backgrounds have a lot to do with things -- up to a point. A lot of it depends on how the characters react to the situation. Some people become more fragile from going through tough stuff, but other people become stronger and more resilient because of what they've gone through. Post-Traumatic Growth is as real and as common as Post Traumatic Stress, but it seldom gets talked about.

 

I cut both Regina and Hook some slack in the resilience department for their initial traumas. They were young (probably in their late teens) and what they went through probably should change someone's personality because it was so traumatic, and then these experiences were in a context that made it even worse. For Regina, it wasn't just about watching her boyfriend be murdered by her mother. Daniel likely was her safe place, where she could be herself instead of bearing the pressure of her mother's ambitions and expectations, and he was her hope for an escape to something better. Regina didn't just watch her boyfriend die that day. She watched all her hopes and dreams of a different life die. She wouldn't be the same person after that. Not that this excuses her later behavior and the way she's dealt with her adult relationships, where she goes on to murder a man when he breaks up with her or declares that her life is utterly ruined and that the universe is conspiring against her to keep her from finding happiness when the guy she's had maybe two dates with chooses to be with his wife instead of her. When you quit your job and tell your kid to stay away from the house over a relationship that hadn't lasted long enough to be considered a "breakup" you're going a bit too far, regardless of what your childhood was like.

 

With Hook, I can see why losing Liam the way he did was enough to make him snap. Based on what we know of his backstory, his brother was literally all he had left in the world. He was losing the last of his family, the person who'd been his anchor through life. At the same time, he was having all his illusions and ideals shattered. He learned through his brother's death that the king he was fighting a war for was someone who would plan genocide and send his men to gather a deadly poison without any warning (hmm, sounds a lot like Merlin). There might also have been a bit of seeing his hero with feet of clay. He idolized his brother and even now calls him the best man he's known, but his brother believed the king and made a really dumb move that got him killed. All of that is probably enough to make someone want to shed everything of what he used to be and go off the deep end. Spending a couple of hundred years obsessed with revenge over Milah's death was probably an overreaction, but that was still a very traumatic event and a case where he would never be able to achieve justice.

 

I guess with Henry, he's 13, so he's not supposed to be entirely rational (I did think he overreacted to the situation, but not to an unbelievable extent). With Mulan, it was transparently setting up her supposed future romance, and the story with Aurora seems to have been retcon fueled by fan response, given that her initial behavior strongly suggested that she was into Philip, jealous of Aurora, and didn't think that Aurora was worthy of him. They needed Mulan to be heartbroken now to springboard her into something with Ruby.

[mjgchick]

I think Mulan fell for both Phillip and Aurora through getting to know them through adventure. On the other hand Mulan saw Red's face and she was fuckstruck. Kind of reminds me of Past Killian looking fuckstruck at Emma. Her cleavage was out but he didn't even notice. lol

[Faemonic]

I do think the unstable backgrounds have a lot to do with things -- up to a point. A lot of it depends on how the characters react to the situation. Some people become more fragile from going through tough stuff, but other people become stronger and more resilient because of what they've gone through. Post-Traumatic Growth is as real and as common as Post Traumatic Stress, but it seldom gets talked about.

 

I cut both Regina and Hook some slack in the resilience department for their initial traumas (...) Not that this excuses her later behavior and the way she's dealt with her adult relationships, where she goes on to murder a man when he breaks up with her or declares that her life is utterly ruined and that the universe is conspiring against her to keep her from finding happiness when the guy she's had maybe two dates with chooses to be with his wife instead of her. When you quit your job and tell your kid to stay away from the house over a relationship that hadn't lasted long enough to be considered a "breakup" you're going a bit too far, regardless of what your childhood was like.

That was the part I couldn't believe. Yes, these characters have unstable foundations. I wouldn't advocate either to follow that up with "...so of course they're unreasonable and they'll act out, just let them be" or "...but they can snap their fingers and Be Resilient and Be Strong!" Getting to either of those are processes, but the downward or upward spirals ought to be shown. Otherwise, I can't scrape together a lot of sympathy for Regina who has been so attached to Henry and obviously still is, but she throws him out like last season's couture over a guy she's been dating for less than a fortnight. I could try to headcanon that pixie dust prophecies are very real in her world, that she still doesn't know how to share so Henry has "belonged" to Emma and the Charmings since Neverland, that she lashed out at Graham pretty fatally and regrets it but gets defensive (because regrets mean taking blame) and sublimates that unresolved issue with continuing to blame Emma for chasing (unmentioned Graham and then by proxy:) Robin out of her life. But that's Archie's job!

 

As for Hook's turning point in his career, some people didn't buy it, like, "Bro's dead bro we'll all be pirates now." But I thought, okay. His obsession with Milah, also okay with that because it at least showed that he feels guilty about moving on. Then about 12 hours later, The Lighter Fight. And then he gives Neal a hug all, "Sometimes when I look at you, I only see a man. But you're the same boy that I looked after in Neverland, and we're silly to be fighting over a woman." And I'm like, "That explains a lot but seriously though." It's either he's clingy or he's flaky, and I should know why he's one instead of the other, or I ought to know why he is both. The show never makes a convincing argument.

 

I don't know if Mulan got disowned from her family or whatever for being genderqueer, and if she's been clingy-flaky ever since, but if she had even a shadow of the support system that she had by the end of the movie (grandmother, mother, father, ancestors, Eddie Murphy dragon, at least three other comrades-in-arms, oh and the frakking Emperor could this not have taken place during the age of Sleeve-Cutters I mean the Hun invasion and the Forbidden City did not happen at the same time as Hanfu fashion, and Shang--who at this point wouldn't even be necessary...Regina...) then Mulan probably would have gotten over Aurora after like two beers. I'm thinking that either Mulan didn't open up to the Merry Men or the Merry Men kind of suck at emotionally supporting each other through Post Traumatic Growth, same with Hook's crew.

 

Who am I kidding? This show made Mulan absolutely devastated, because this show has a polyamory-proof love triangle complex almost as big as its abandonment issues.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Faemonic

[Shanna Marie]

As for Hook's turning point in his career, some people didn't buy it, like, "Bro's dead bro we'll all be pirates now." But I thought, okay.

That one makes sense to me if you imagine that he didn't instantly put on the black leather and go full pirate, if it was more of a gradual transition. He really didn't have much choice but to desert in some sense because they'd failed in their mission by not bringing back the dreamshade and unless the king actually was merely mistaken in what dreamshade would do, knowing what dreamshade was and what the king had planned probably would have been a career (and life) ending situation. So staying in the navy and carrying on bravely in the midst of his grief was never an option. The choices were desert and go on the run from a king who probably would want to tie up loose ends, desert and join the enemy, or desert and fight back against the crooked king in a one-ship war. There's not a lot of money in revenge, so piracy may have been necessary to keep the ship stocked and pay the crew, and once the war's over, what else were they going to do? And so they ended up as full-on pirates. Not that we've been told that or seen that, but it seems like a logical transition that wasn't entirely about grief. Liam's death caused a cascade of events that effectively ended that phase of Killian's life, in addition to being the loss of the only family member he had left.

 

By the time we get to Milah, this is a person who's had the rug pulled out from under him one too many times. His father disappeared, and he and Liam were apparently able to pull a life together after that changed their world. Then Liam died, and that changed his entire world, shutting him out of the life he had before. He found Milah and built a life with her, and then that was destroyed. The centuries-long revenge quest may have also had some elements of finding catharsis for Liam and his father, while he was at it, like getting his justice against Rumple would make up for every other loss he'd suffered.

 

With Neal, I can see things getting very confused, especially since they apparently had to cut some planned storyline between them when Colin broke his leg. So at the lighter incident, Neal has only just come back into Hook's life at all, and it may have been a mental "does not compute" that this was the same person as the boy he knew, as he said. He's only seeing the rival, not his old friend. By the time they're back in Storybrooke, he seems to be reconciling the connection of Bae and Neal, enough so that he makes the decision not to interfere between Bae and his son the way he got between Bae and his mother. This time, he won't break up the family. With the farewell hug, he'd already remarked on the brand burned into Neal's hand, so he seemed to suspect Neal's days were numbered. He'd also had a year to think even more, and his mental image of Bae during that year may have transitioned into adult Neal so that for him, it really was now the same person. So maybe not flaky so much as coping with a situation that's difficult to comprehend. It's like when high school friends I haven't seen since graduation friend me on Facebook, and my image of them is of 18-year-olds, and then they start talking about their grandkids. It takes a while to get used to the person they are now. It would be even weirder for Hook because he's still the same age. The kid he looked after is now older than he is and has salt-and-pepper hair.

 

However, I do agree that Hook can be a big clingy. He's lost enough that he has a hard time letting go. Emma's similar, with her insta-best friends ever with people she's known for hours, and she remembers some of them decades later.

[KAOS Agent]

At least Hook was able to reconcile Neal with Bae. Compare that to Rumpel's complete rejection of the man his son became in "Heart of Gold". Rumpelstiltskin, the man who spent centuries working to cast a curse that would reunite him with his son, completely wrote him off once he'd died. Talk about messed up relationships and wtf reactions. 

[Camera One]

I didn't really buy that reaction from Rumple in "Heart of Gold".  Heck, Rumple and Neal were inside of one another... wouldn't Rumple have felt even more close to him?

[Faemonic]

I do agree that Hook can be a big clingy. He's lost enough that he has a hard time letting go. Emma's similar, with her insta-best friends ever with people she's known for hours, and she remembers some of them decades later.

They're hot and cold. Emma's supposed to have walls, and even at her loneliest and/or most desperate when was August a friend? Was it just because they came through the tree together and she still sees toddler August under the scruff and leather? Ah, it was what the plot needed.

 

At least Hook was able to reconcile Neal with Bae. Compare that to Rumpel's complete rejection of the man his son became in "Heart of Gold". Rumpelstiltskin, the man who spent centuries working to cast a curse that would reunite him with his son, completely wrote him off once he'd died. Talk about messed up relationships and wtf reactions. 

Funny, I thought Gold wrote Nealfire off right after they reunited. He had Lacey to pay attention to.

 

Adding Goldstiltskin to the clingy-flaky whiplash.

[Shanna Marie]

They're hot and cold. Emma's supposed to have walls, and even at her loneliest and/or most desperate when was August a friend? Was it just because they came through the tree together and she still sees toddler August under the scruff and leather? Ah, it was what the plot needed.

I think one of the issues with Emma is that when she puts up walls after a betrayal, the person who caused the walls is already on the inside. So Lily betrays her, the walls go up, but it doesn't really change her feelings about Lily and in a way amplifies them because the walls mean she doesn't make any other friends, leaving Lily as her best friend ever. She falls in love with Neal, he betrays her, the walls go up, and in spite of the betrayal, Neal remains the love of her life for a long time because she doesn't let herself fall in love with anyone else. August doesn't make a lot of sense, unless there's some guilt woven in there, where she's afraid that if she'd listened to him when he told her the truth about who she was, maybe she could have saved him before he was turned into wood and then de-aged and then re-aged. Since she places a high value on people being honest with her, she may have retroactively raised his importance in her life now that she recognizes that he was telling her the full truth about her origins. He's the one who took her to the place where she arrived in this world and told her the facts about her earliest days. For someone who's always felt adrift, that has to mean a lot to her.

 

Back to the resilience issue, I've been thinking that our expectations of resilience have a lot to do with how permanent the loss of a loved one is, whether that loss totally changed the person's life, and how it fits into the context of the person's life. A death would generally have more impact than a breakup because death is final and means the loss of hope, while with a breakup there's always the hope that someone might come back to you or, if you're a generous person, you can be happy with the thought that your loved one is alive and happy elsewhere, even if it's not with you. Watching a loved one die is more traumatic than getting the news secondhand, but on the other hand, at least that usually gives a chance to say final farewells. In some cases, it's up to us what we do in reaction to a loss, and that determines whether or not it really changes our lives, while sometimes the circumstances of the loss mean that it's life-changing. And then there's how it fits into life, whether that loss is a final straw or something you're used to, whether it's the last family member left, whether there's any support system, etc.

 

So with Regina, there's Daniel's death, which was horrible and traumatic and which represented the loss of hope for the life Regina wanted. While it was life-changing, some of that was by her choice. Once she got Cora out of her life, she could have chosen to go live the kind of life she'd wanted with Daniel, even if it was without him, by getting away and doing what she wanted, but she chose to go ahead with what Cora wanted for her. She had good reason for a strong reaction to that death, but she ended up overreacting and misdirecting her anger. I have zero sympathy for any pain she felt about her father or Graham because you don't get to feel sorry for yourself about a loss when you're the one who killed the person you lost. Her reaction to "losing" Robin is a good sign of her histrionic personality -- she looks around for blame to cast, treats the breakup the way she's treated deaths in the past, and acts like it's a massive universal wrong that has to be set right by changing reality. Her reaction to Daniel's death was eventually to cast a curse that created a new place and transported everyone to a new world that operated by Regina's rules. Her reaction to Robin going back to his wife was to look for the Author to rewrite the ending of the storybook so she could get a happy ending.

 

With Hook, as I mentioned before, the aftermath of Liam's death wasn't just about the grief. The circumstances of that death ended Killian's career and made him an outcast from his nation. With Milah, it was his choice to devote himself to revenge rather than picking up the pieces and moving on with the support of his crew (depending on how long Rumple decided that letting him live was the worst punishment and if he decided he'd rather just kill him -- after finding that he didn't end up with the bean, after all, would Rumple have let him live if he'd still been in that world?). He seems to have learned by the time Neal dies (both times he was believed to have died). Revenge doesn't seem to have entered his mind then, just moving forward with what needed to be done, and he's the same way when Emma is "lost." His response to loss is always action-oriented -- I must do something about this.

 

Emma generally tends to be more stoic, just accepting the situation, building higher walls, getting stronger (or feeling that way, because of the walls), moving on. Was Hook's dying this time around a final straw, one more loss than she could take, or was it the Dark One influence that led her to fight instead of accepting? This is where I think they failed us in not showing us any of her reaction to his near-death by heart crushing at the end of 4A. I don't think it would have taken away from her reaction to his subsequent deaths for us to have seen her response, and her total lack of response then means we're lacking a data point for evaluating her meltdown now. She went from watching him almost die and going on to shove his heart back in his chest, duck away after a kiss, and go have shots with Regina because Regina's would-be boyfriend leaving town was apparently more traumatic to desperate tears and urging Regina to help undo the AU so he would live again to going against his wishes and tethering him to Excalibur even though it made him a Dark One and sent her over the edge into darkness. One of those things doesn't really fit.

[pezgirl7]

I keep hearing I'll Stand By You by Rachel Platten on the radio, and it always gives me CS feels...

Even if we can't find heaven, I'll walk through Hell with you

Love, you're not alone, cause I'm gonna stand by you

I love that no matter what gets thrown at CS, I don't think I've heard a single person (save for SQers) doubt that they'll make it through intact. I feel like once all the crap they're dealing with gets resolved, their relationship will be even stronger. So even if I don't like all the obstacles and drama that might keep them apart, I love knowing that they'll make it through and be together in the end. Like it's not even a question at this point. I didn't always feel that way.

[Faemonic]

Red and Snow's friendship I really miss, but since when were Ruby and Mary Margaret friends? I know Ruby was at the hospital in Season 2 when Whale was having his post Zombie Daniel breakdown, and she offered to look after Henry during the Cora confrontation (when she can turn into a ferocious dire wolf at will), but was nowhere to be seen during Snow's post-Cora depression and seemed pretty cold after the Un-Curse (and then it was Snow White and Regina all the time.) I think Ruby interacted with David and the dwarves more.

 

So, for all the We Are Both, I thought the "why is my best friend brooding in the bathroom during my baby's christening, let's hug" came out of nowhere. Although it would be cool if Snowflake had a Werewolf Godmother.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Faemonic

[Camera One]

Friendship lasts, so that did not come out of nowhere for me, even if it has been so long.  Just because the writers chose not to use Ruby in the second half of Season 2 doesn't change their history.  They could have continued the Snow/Red friendship in Storybrooke (especially in the wake of killing Cora, as you mentioned), but clearly, they couldn't care less about it.  Even with the writers' new plans of Neverland, I don't think there's any good excuse.  Ruby only had more interaction with David since they were stuck in Storybrooke in 2A.  

 

When they got the actress back briefly in 3B, they did give her a scene with Snow, but the writers chose to spend the scene with Snow worrying about Regina, because the whole focus of 3B's start needed to be on how much Regina missed Henry.  They couldn't even budget a scene for Snow and Charming grieving over the loss of Emma and Henry, what it might be like for Snow to be back in the castle where her father died, what it was like for Snowing to be ruling again, etc.  

Edited November 20, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

It was such a CS-thing, that I hated it when Regina called Emma "Swan" in 4B. I'm glad it's back to Emma/Miss Swan. haha

What's weird is that Regina refers to Emma as "Emma" when she's talking to other people. Has she been using it to her face in 5A?

[mjgchick]

Didn't she call her "Emma" when she was forcing Emma to reveal why she refused to spark the thing. You know the same scene where the writers had Regina say she knew Emma when she was clearly wrong about why Emma didn't want to do the spark thing?

[Curio]

You know the same scene where the writers had Regina say she knew Emma when she was clearly wrong about why Emma didn't want to do the spark thing?

 

This had to have been intentional, right? As a writer, there has to be some kind of meaning behind why you make your character say, "Look, I know you, Emma. It took a long time, but I really know you," only for them to be dead wrong later on in the episode about assuming Dark Emma wanted to use Excalibur to snuff out the light...right?

Edited November 22, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

As a writer, there has to be some kind of meaning behind why

 

Remember, it's *these* writers.  

[mjgchick]

It has to be intentional because Regina has been wrong about Emma all season long.

[Shanna Marie]

I went down a few rabbit trails of thoughts while driving cross-country today, and I'll try to make them coherent.

 

I still wonder if Henry knows just how connected Hook is to him. From Hook's perspective, Henry would be the closest thing he has to family even if he weren't involved with Emma because Henry is Bae's son and Milah's grandson, so Henry is all he has left of the people he thought of as his family. Add Emma, and Henry becomes even more important to him. If he had to choose whether to save Henry or Emma, he'd probably go with Henry (especially since he'd know that's what Emma would choose). They've mentioned that Henry wants an extended family. He tried to call Belle "grandma" when she only just married his grandfather. What would he think about Hook being essentially married to his grandmother? And how is it that we don't even know if Henry knows these things?

 

I also wonder how "Operation Light Swan" came about. Who initiated it? Since Henry was apparently on board with looking for a house for Emma and Hook to move into together, where he'd presumably be spending whatever time he isn't spending with Regina (if she hasn't kicked him out again because he's become inconvenient or a distraction), I guess we can assume that Henry has changed his stance from not being okay with Emma asking Hook out on a date. So, did Henry bring it up as a way of distracting moody Hook who was so worried about Emma or because he needed to feel like he was doing something and saw Hook as an ally, or did Hook initiate it as a way of cheering Henry up after Violet, or for some other reason?

 

And that made me start thinking about what Chez Picket Fence might be like, assuming that eventually everything will be reset, both Hook and Emma will be de-eviled, they'll get over all this stuff, and then move in together. I tend to picture cozy, comfortable lived-in levels of clutter -- not actually messy because I doubt you'll get too many former navy men who are outright slobs, but not looking utterly pristine, like Regina's house. I can't picture Henry being able to leave his comic books lying around outside his bedroom at Regina's house, but I'm picturing a coffee table with a few comic books and a few of the antique-looking tomes that we've seen on the Jolly Roger. Probably a few oddball artifacts that Hook has picked up on his travels. Maybe a bunch of family photos in frames -- stuff from Henry's camera. Regina's house doesn't seem like the kind of place where a kid could stretch out on the sofa and read a comic book or where the whole family would snuggle up with popcorn to watch a movie, but I can see that happening at Chez Picket Fence.

 

But then that made me wonder how Robin and Roland would fit into Regina's life. Obviously, she once had a small child in her house because of Henry, but she had total control of that situation and could have laid down rules about him not being able to actually live outside his bedroom. Would Robin tolerate that kind of treatment of his kid? Or has Regina softened enough that she'd be okay with her house looking like a five-year-old lives there?

[Curio]

We have no idea how Robin feels about Regina's upper class rich lifestyle and how that affects him personally. Wouldn't that be kind of an important discussion to have if you're Robin Hood? Apparently, Robin and Roland lived in Regina's castle for a bit during the missing year, but castle living is much different than living in a smaller mansion in Storybrooke as a family unit.

[Faemonic]

I doubt you'll get too many former navy men who are outright slobs, but not looking utterly pristine, like Regina's house. I can't picture Henry being able to leave his comic books lying around outside his bedroom at Regina's house, but I'm picturing a coffee table with a few comic books and a few of the antique-looking tomes that we've seen on the Jolly Roger. Probably a few oddball artifacts that Hook has picked up on his travels. Maybe a bunch of family photos in frames -- stuff from Henry's camera.

 

Regina's house doesn't seem like the kind of place where a kid could stretch out on the sofa and read a comic book or where the whole family would snuggle up with popcorn to watch a movie, but I can see that happening at Chez Picket Fence.

It might be unbecoming of a pirate to be too fastidious, even if Killian literally is un-becoming a Pirate. If pre-midshipman Killian truly was a Regency Era dandy in dire straits, though, he and Liam might have figured out how to clean up after themselves because the last thing a nob loses in poverty is Standards.

 

I can imagine them both being messy people, but Hook is probably more likely to get the compulsion to tidy up the place, unless Emma and Mary Margaret took turns doing all the dishes rather than clean-as-you-go or Mary Margaret doing everything like a mom. I just hope they never get into that argument of would-you-quit-treating-me-like-the-housekeeper-and-pick-up-after-yourself-for-once. Or maybe the year in New York meant that Emma would have some false-memory training on how to shape up, although she might still be a bit of a hoarder from her foster home days. (New potential couples argument: Why do we store plastic grocery bags if we also buy rubbish bin linings?)

 

Having been raised by Regina, Henry's either going to be a neat freak who gets a visceral fear of anything being slightly out of place, or a slob.

 

But then that made me wonder how Robin and Roland would fit into Regina's life. Obviously, she once had a small child in her house because of Henry, but she had total control of that situation and could have laid down rules about him not being able to actually live outside his bedroom. Would Robin tolerate that kind of treatment of his kid? Or has Regina softened enough that she'd be okay with her house looking like a five-year-old lives there?

I heard that parents tend to relax around the second kid. Otherwise, I don't know... Regina sort of noticed that Roland existed, but she doesn't seem to be trying to contribute let along takeover Roland's upbringing. That's reserved for Regina's niece-daughter.

 

We have no idea how Robin feels about Regina's upper class rich lifestyle and how that affects him personally. Wouldn't that be kind of an important discussion to have if you're Robin Hood? Apparently, Robin and Roland lived in Regina's castle for a bit during the missing year, but castle living is much different than living in a smaller mansion in Storybrooke as a family unit.

Regina's probably not going to join Robin's survivalist cult of Merry Men. That's good for Roland, I was worried the kid was going to get hypothermia from living out in the woods.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I heard that parents tend to relax around the second kid. Otherwise, I don't know... Regina sort of noticed that Roland existed, but she doesn't seem to be trying to contribute let along takeover Roland's upbringing. That's reserved for Regina's niece-daughter.

Ugh. Roland should have been one of the headliners for Outlaw Queen. During the Missing Year, she had just lost her son presumably forever. We've seen since S1 that she has a fixation on children. Plus, after finding out in 4B that she's been barren this whole time, a step-son sounds even more appealing to her. So why is it that all we get is a stuffed flying monkey? It's difficult to imagine Regina pushing off another potential kid to the side. The show wants us to believe they've interacted (taking him out for ice cream, etc.), but we never see anything of substance.

 

The writers take every quality Regina might like about Robin and totally ignore it. The only reasons we're given for her infatuation with him in particular is pixie dust and taco making skills. Not to mention the irony of the Evil Queen dating Robin Hood is completely glossed over. That's why I can't buy their relationship. There's nothing solid... it's just a character goal for Regina.

Edited November 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[LizaD]

 

Ruby only had more interaction with David since they were stuck in Storybrooke in 2A.

 

I loved Ruby's friendship with both Snow and Charming. They did wonders in the fairy tale flashbacks but it never got off the ground in Storybrooke, even in S1-S2. It's such a shame how they wasted her. I think her centric in S1 was one of the best episodes of the series and it was Elliot Knight's fave episode ever. Too bad for MO her series didn't stick.

 

 

Roland should have been one of the headliners for Outlaw Queen. During the Missing Year, she had just lost her son presumably forever.

Well that was the point. A&E explained it. They said they didn't want to make it seem like Woegina could easily replace Henry and also why they didn't want to do anything with OQ in the missing year.

[Camera One]

They seriously said that?  But they didn't care about making it seem like Snowing could forget Emma existed?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Camera One