Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Curio]

The whole arc of Henry working in Rumple's shop should have been significant in terms of developing a relationship between Rumple and Henry. And yet, they deleted the only meaningful scene between them where Rumple actually gave good advice to Henry and connected with him.

 

Responding in the writers thread.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The whole arc of Henry working in Rumple's shop should have been significant in terms of developing a relationship between Rumple and Henry. And yet, they deleted the only meaningful scene between them where Rumple actually gave good advice to Henry and connected with him.

Heck, even Belle and Henry could have gotten closer from that. They still haven't addressed the fact that she's his grandma now. They're both into reading and believing the best in villains. They'd be the best of friends.

 

Have they ever even spoken to each other before?

Edited December 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Belle just recently got married. I realize that she married a psycho out in the woods with a cricket performing the ceremony, but did anyone think that maybe the other women in Storybrooke might throw her a bridal shower or something. There could have been some fun and funny moments in stuff like that.

Ah, but that would have required anyone to know they were actually getting married. Did anyone even know about it until after the fact?

 

But don't worry. I'm sure when Robin and Regina decide to tie the knot, we'll spend an entire season on planning their epic wedding and we'll have a whole bunch of bridal showers, apple martini-themed bachelorette parties, Snow and Emma fighting over who gets to be maid of honor, Regina throwing fireballs at any vendor who doesn't give her a bridal discount, and a drunken mess of a bachelor party at The Rabbit Hole. 

[KingOfHearts]

But don't worry. I'm sure when Robin and Regina decide to tie the knot, we'll spend an entire season on planning their epic wedding and we'll have a whole bunch of bridal showers, apple martini-themed bachelorette parties, Snow and Emma fighting over who gets to be maid of honor, Regina throwing fireballs at any vendor who doesn't give her a bridal discount, and a drunken mess of a bachelor party at The Rabbit Hole.

Regina should sign up to be on Bridezillas.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It is just a pet peeve of mine that the show has all these fairy tale characters in one town with the potential of seeing them all interact and be in various relationships (friend, love, family, enemy, etc.), but so many times the characters are so isolated that there is no interaction at all.

Putting characters on separate tracks takes the fun out of the setting, I agree. Keeping Rumple with Zelena in 3B was painfully boring. Then in 4A having Regina stuck with Robin was probably the worse part of the season so far. This show's ensemble cast is great when its treated as an ensemble, and not three separate shows in the same vicinity.

[Shanna Marie]

Did anyone even know about it until after the fact?

There was a newspaper article about their engagement, which seems to have happened the night before the wedding itself.

 

Back to the Beauty and the Beast stories, it's kind of a fallacy that she saves him with her love. She breaks the curse with her love, but she doesn't fall in love with him until the inner transformation is already complete, even in the versions where he's a rude jerk. She's patient enough to stick it out and give him a chance while calling him out on his bad behavior, but it isn't until he changes that she comes to love him. In a lot of the versions, he asks her to marry him every night, and every night she says no until the final time when she says yes (usually because she thinks he's dying at that point), and that's when the curse breaks. I suppose you could kind of say that's what was going on here, as she didn't marry him until she believed he'd changed, as proven by his sacrifice to save the town from Pan and his willingness to give up the dagger. The problem is that her feelings didn't seem to be any different after the point of change than they were while he was still openly evil. Just think about how much more powerful and angsty his current betrayal would be if his giving her the dagger was truly what won her over after she'd been in "call me when you're not evil" mode until then.

 

Perhaps the Beauty and the Beast model they could have gone for was Jane Eyre, where she really saves him with her contempt. When she's feeling betrayed about him having tried to marry her while having his mad wife in the attic and pissed that he wants her to go away with him to someplace where no one knows them and they can live as husband and wife without being married, she leaves him, and that has a lot to do with making him re-evaluate his life choices. Meanwhile, she builds her own life, getting a job, making friends, finding family and inheriting money (as one does), so that when she meets up with him again and sees that he's changed, they're on a much more even footing. That could have worked really well for Belle, if, say, when she saw him dumping the potion in the well so he could get his power back, she figured "nope, still evil," and went in search of her father, instead. She could have discovered the library and decided to re-open it herself, and David could have found the key in the mayor's office while he was apparently running things in Snow's absence after Regina was temporarily kicked out. She could have made friends in the town and built her own support network, all while being warily civil to Rumple, with him trying to be on his best behavior. They wouldn't even have needed the amnesia/Lacey plot if Hook's revelation about Milah's fate and seeing Rumple beating Hook served the same purpose of turning her away from Rumple. They could then have spent his screen time on his relationship with Neal. His rescue mission for Henry to Neverland, his sacrifice to save the town, and then his turning the dagger over to her would have been the big proof that he had changed and had become the man she thought he could be, and that would have been when she agreed to marry him. That hardly changes anything about the plot but makes Belle a much better character.

 

Hmm, Emma and Hook did seem to use some of the Jane Eyre elements, given that Emma's not being at all impressed with him the way he was and her considering him to be an untrustworthy villain had a lot to do with him re-evaluating his life choices. He wanted to be a man she could admire, and she didn't go for him until she was sure he really had changed, with the sacrifice of his ship being the final bit of proof.

[kili]

Hmm, Emma and Hook did seem to use some of the Jane Eyre elements, given that Emma's not being at all impressed with him the way he was and her considering him to be an untrustworthy villain had a lot to do with him re-evaluating his life choices.

 

If I was looking for a classic literature relationship to parallel that to, I would probably think Elizabeth and Darcy. Elizabeth's assumptions about Darcy weren't entirely accurate and Darcy needed to re-evaluate his life choices. He knew he was attracted to her long before she knew it. He also makes a big sacrifice for her without her knowledge although she was already re-evaluating her position before finding about it. Walsh can play the part of Wickham (the deceiver that gets close to her which she is very happy to have escaped from).

 

I guess that leaves Neal as Mr. Collins....

Edited December 11, 2014 by kili

[Shanna Marie]

If I was looking for a classic literature relationship to parallel that to, I would probably think Elizabeth and Darcy.

Hmmm, sort of, but I don't know. Darcy was a snob and a jerk, but he wasn't really a villain, and although he loosened up a bit and got over himself, he didn't really change the course of his life. He mostly learned that it's a very, very bad idea to insult a woman's family and act like you're lowering yourself to be with her when proposing marriage. When Emma met Hook, he was a villain. He may have had a good heart underneath and was functioning in pain, but he was so driven by revenge that he was willing to hurt innocent people to get it, and when he changed, he really changed. He gave up revenge, he switched teams to helping the good guys, and he even gave up his pirate ship. While Elizabeth was right about Darcy being a snob and a jerk, she was wrong about the kind of person he was because she'd only heard Wickham's side of the story and believed it. It was his being such a snob and a jerk that made her take that story at face value, and that was Darcy's big slap in the face, the realization that he'd behaved in such a way that made it possible for her to believe what Wickham said about him. Even if Emma was wrong about whether Hook would have betrayed her if she hadn't left him on top of the beanstalk, I don't think she was at all wrong about the kind of person he was at that time. He was still bent on revenge, so even if they'd worked together to get everyone back to Storybrooke, he still probably would have ended up doing something like shooting Belle or poisoning Rumple, so she'd have felt betrayed by him in the long run (and maybe it's for the best that she didn't trust him then because as it was, she didn't feel personally hurt by his later bad deeds because she expected that sort of thing from him, but if she'd already trusted him and he still did those things, I'm not sure there would have been any coming back from that for her). She changed her opinion of him after he changed and she was sure he'd really changed. It wasn't that she'd learned more info about him that made her change her mind about him. Learning about his ship was just the cherry on top, but I think she'd already realized he'd always be there for her. Meanwhile, I don't think he ever had misgivings about who or what she was, like Darcy did for Elizabeth because of her social standing and horrid family. From the moment Hook met Emma, he was impressed and admired her. Even at his worst, he looked up to her rather than down on her.

 

So, yes on the parallel of him helping her and her family and not wanting her to know what exactly he'd paid for it, and yes for the wakeup call, but it's not a perfect parallel.

 

Though now I'm going to have to study my bookshelves to see if I can come up with a good one. Unfortunately, with these writers I doubt it goes much deeper than Han Solo and Princess Leia -- the pirate who joins the good guys when he falls for a princess.

[Curio]

From the Emma thread:

Once again we've had an arc that built her character and relationships up only to lead to no pay off. This isn't just a Hook issue which I'm seeing the most complaints about. They've been doing this with her family for a while now.

 

I think part of the reason why a lot of people are bringing up Hook in regards to Emma in the finale is because so much of Emma's arc this season was devoted to developing her relationship with him. We were promised that we'd see Emma fight for him this time around. When Charming asked that pivotal question "And she for you?" in the Season 3 finale, and when Hook responded that he honestly didn't know, we were supposed to get an answer to that question by seeing Emma go to great lengths to save Hook on screen. The most we got was Emma shoving him away from some icicles and saying that she can't lose him. Was that supposed to be our ultimate answer? But what I was shown in the finale was an Emma where we didn't even get to see connecting the dots between Rumple's plan and Hook's strange behavior. We didn't get to see an emotional response from Emma when she saw Hook at the brink of death. The Emma I was presented in the finale resolved her storyline with Hook the same way she does with any issues she has with her parents: a quick hug/kiss and then let enough time pass where they never bring up the issues again.

 

4A was supposed to explore what it meant for Emma to be in a serious relationship for the first time in forever (sorry, I couldn't resist). We were shown Emma finally opening up and becoming vulnerable around Hook, which was great. We were shown that Emma still thinks about the deaths of her past flames, but then when her current boyfriend is at the brink of death in the finale, we get no reaction. Like, what? The writers did an okay job of developing Emma's powers this season, showing her struggle to control them, and finally her acceptance of them. So you'd think they would have spent the same amount of energy resolving her issues with the man she now considers herself "together" with in the finale. Instead, by the way the writers/directors/editors made it play out (I refuse to blame Emma the character for this), they made it seem like Emma valued Regina's friendship more than her boyfriend who almost died.

 

Honestly, I think I would have been fine without that hot make out session. I think I would have rather seen a meaningful conversation between Emma and Hook. And now, since 6 weeks have passed, nothing will ever get brought up and all of the awesome relationship angst that should have been dealt with in 4A will never be mentioned again.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

The Emma I was presented in the finale resolved her storyline with Hook the same way she does with any issues she has with her parents: a quick hug/kiss and then let enough time pass where they never bring up the issues again. ...

 

Honestly, I think I would have been fine without that hot make out session. I think I would have rather seen a meaningful conversation between Emma and Hook. And now, since 6 weeks have passed, nothing will ever get brought up and all of the awesome relationship angst that should have been dealt with in 4A will never be mentioned again.

 

And yet, they spend so much time rehashing Regina's woes, or have Rumple repeat the same dialogue to Hook episode after episode. That is the problem with this show. 

[YaddaYadda]

I know some of us in here and spoiled, but wasn't the whole Emma

fighting for Hook a season arc as opposed to a half-season one

?

 

That being said, they need to stop treating Hook's disappearances acts like it's the most normal thing in the world.  The pattern has been that whenever Hook goes without any reason, it means there's trouble brewing for him and usually the rest since he seems to stumble into the trouble like it's second nature.

[Emma]

The writers have no interest in showing the emotional payoff for Emma's character. They've done it repeatedly with her family and they're now doing it with Hook.

I want so much more for her character and relationships but have sadly accepted its never going to happen. The writers just don't care unless your name is Regina.

[MaiLuna]

This is going to be somewhat of a long rant, so skip ahead if you're not interested. I waited until the day after to see if I'd feel better about things, but nope, still bitter.

 

We don't know why Emma left Hook in the hallway. We don't know how much time had passed of if it was Killian who left so I'm willing to partly give them the benefit of the doubt there. But, Killian lost his heart in episode 8/9, Emma noticed something was wrong with him 3 times and did nothing. He gets it back this episode and all we have of those 2 characters reaction to all that is a 25 second scene. 25 SECONDS.

 

Emma said she can't lose him back in episode 3. In this episode she was powerless while Gold attempted to crush his heart right in front of her. They couldn't have spared 2 seconds of screentime to some reaction from Emma? We've seen before that even when people are frozen they can show some emotion in their eyes (like Snow was scared of Zelena while frozen in 3x19).

 

We saw Emma and Hook having a longer scene beforehand, where she realizes something is wrong with him. Does she care to investigate? No. Does anything come out of that scene? No. It was pointless since Emma didn't realize what was wrong or do anything to help except put his heart back in. That screentime could've been given to something after the clocktower scene.

Even back in episode 4 Emma didn't seem to notice/care much about Hook getting his hand back from Gold and acting strange. she said "it's ok, it was just a glass of wine" and that's it. Like he was more upset about her dress than his abrupt reaction.

 

When Emma puts his heart back in, HE reassures her that he's a survivor. I don't see how she needed reasurance when we weren't even shown ONE facial expression about her being scared or upset about what happened. I know she only knew for like 2 minutes that Hook was about to die before his heart was given back to him, but still. At least have her kissing him? IDK. I just needed something after this half season from Emma. I know OQ and RB had it worse since they were both broken up, but at least in their scenes I saw some EMOTION. That was clearly lacking in the last CS scene.  

I can believe a bit that Hook wasn't thinking about all the traumatizing stuff he went through because he was just so relieved to be safe, but we didn't get much of a reaction from him either.  

 

I love this relationship but I am getting SO tired of it being so one-sided. We've had multiple scenes of showing how much Hook cares about Emma. Couldn't one of those scene been given about how much Emma cares about Hook? Even some line about why she likes him, or defending their relationship to David instead of that always being done by Hook, or anything. I don't get why the writers do this. Do they think that they have to show how much Hook loves Emma to redeem him for being a villain? We know he loves her and wants to be better for her already. Do they think it's more romantic to show a man being in love with a woman than the other way around? Do they think we won't like Hook unless he's being romantic? I know Emma's supposed to be closed off, but give us something to show that there's a reason why she cares/is in a relationship with Hook besides finding him mildy attractive and funny and because he cares for her.

 

I am not hating on Emma, she's my favorite character and I love her. I'm just confused as to why the writers choose to show only one side of the relationship. Are they saving it for some special moment? I think they are just doing what they are doing with the Charmings' feelings towards Emma. They probably think it's "obvious" that Snow and David love Emma and that Emma cares for Hook so they don't have to show it. Yet they feel the need to show and remind us every episode that Hook cares for Emma and that Snow and Emma care about getting Regina their happy ending. Couldn't they have waited until next episode to show the empty books?

 

I'm really, really hoping we will some aftermath to the heart SL when the show comes back. Hook being traumatized, Emma being scared, ANYTHING would do. But I don't think the emotional impact would be the same after 2 and a half months.

 

Wow, sorry for that gloomy post. But I feel so much better after writing all of that. I gotta say I do love how Emma put his heart back. It was so them.

 

Again, I'm sorry for all that whining. I just couldn't help myself because I foolishly went into the episode thinking we'll get some quality screentime.

 

[Dani-Ellie]

Again, I'm sorry for all that whining. I just couldn't help myself because I foolishly went into the episode thinking we'll get some quality screentime.

 

With this show, that was your first mistake. ;)

 

But in all honesty, all my righteous anger over lack of quality screentime and emotional resonance died with my hopes for the Charming Family. It's just not going to happen in this show. From the second the curse broke, it's just been plot plot plot action action action. There's no interest whatsoever in touching on the natural consequences of these storylines and in showing us the ins and outs of these relationships. It's all about check marks: okay, we've hit this point, next!

 

I give up, basically. I'm still watching, but I'm learning not to expect anything. That way, there's less disappointment. That way I can still find my squee instead of ending pissed off on a regular basis.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[YaddaYadda]

Let's just call today a day of whining and go on with our bad selves.

 

No. It was pointless since Emma didn't realize what was wrong or do anything to help except put his heart back in.

 

I don't think the scene in the diner was a pointless one.  I think the whole facepalm comes from the fact that we never saw Emma react to whatever Anna told her and how she put two and two together and figured out they were in the clock tower.  I mean Emma was all about how she sensed magic around the town line, so did she sense Rumple's magic and followed it up to the clock tower?

 

That being said, Emma does care for Hook deeply.  If she doesn't wear her heart on her sleeve like Hook does, JMo at the very least always tries to show it in Emma's actions.  She is a lot closer to him now than she was say at the start of the season.  There are facial expressions, like the way she looks at him that don't lie.

 

I think Emma's problem is that she is usually waiting for the other shoe to drop and her other problem is the writers.

 

Again though and as exasperating as this sounds, Emma going from 0 to 100 would be really jarring, she's just not that kind of character and I still rather have this with CS where they are learning who they are individually and as a couple and taking their time than some fairy dust meant to be whatever OQ is.

[MaiLuna]

 

Emma going from 0 to 100 would be really jarring, she's just not that kind of character

I wasn't expecting 0 to 100, but I was at least expecting 0 to 10. I just wanted somewhat of an emotional reaction from Emma. Her being angry, sad, surprised, worried, anything. But like Dani-Ellie said, the writing of this show doesn't do emotional responses, it just carries on to the next plot. I'll have to remember that.

 

 

I still rather have this with CS where they are learning who they are individually and as a couple and taking their time than some fairy dust meant to be whatever OQ is.

Of course! Me too. Because even when I'm disappointed about CS, their chemistry is so great that they are better than any other couple (for me). They actually have build up and evolution and I love it.

 

 

That being said, Emma does care for Hook deeply.

Oh, I know she does. I just wish they'd show it a little more. I think Hook needs to know just how much she cares too, because he may read Emma like a book but some more proof would be good for him.

Edited December 15, 2014 by MaiLuna

[Shanna Marie]

Honestly, I think I would have been fine without that hot make out session. I think I would have rather seen a meaningful conversation between Emma and Hook.

Oh yeah. Kissing scenes do nothing for me (and can even be gross if there are smacking noises). I know what kissing looks like and what it means, so unless there's something specific about this particular kiss, I'd much rather see characters talking to each other than kissing. You can imply that kissing ensues after the conversation, but I want to know what they're thinking and feeling.

 

In this case, there was all this buildup about Emma's fear of loss. That was established as one of the barriers for this relationship, that she couldn't bear to lose him too, and then she almost does lose him and we don't get to see any of that. Everything meaningful took place offscreen. We didn't get to see if she ever did the math and realized that Hook being weird might have something to do with Rumple's scheme, we didn't get to see her reaction to seeing Rumple attempting to crush Hook's heart, we didn't get to see what she did the moment she was unfrozen and Hook was left there holding his own heart. Then there was the changed location for the re-hearting, which made no sense.

 

I think the way I'd have written it would have been to stay in the clock tower for a moment after Belle and Rumple poofed away, so we could have seen Emma running up the stairs to Hook, who was still in shock, holding his own heart. She could have taken it gently from him and said something about how this was why he'd been acting weird, even as he desperately tried to explain that it had all been things Rumple made him do, while she tried to calm him down. Then she could have put the heart back in and then she should have been the one to hug him like she never wanted to let him go. Then cut over to the poofing onto the town line. And then if they still needed Emma doing shots with Regina, see her walking Hook back to his room, him being still a little shaky, and her asking if he's okay, with him giving her the line about being a survivor, then assuring her he just wants some sleep and wants to be alone.

 

There, I fixed it. In character, not overly shippy, still fits the plot, but I think still a little more emotionally satisfying.

[FabulousTater]

With this show, that was your first mistake. ;)

LOL. This is so true...

 

But in all honesty, all my righteous anger over lack of quality screentime and emotional resonance died with my hopes for the Charming Family. It's just not going to happen in this show. From the second the curse broke, it's just been plot plot plot action action action. There's no interest whatsoever in touching on the natural consequences of these storylines and in showing us the ins and outs of these relationships. It's all about check marks: okay, we've hit this point, next!

This. I can't take any of these characters seriously anymore when I can clearly see that everything about them, their behaviors, and relationships is dictated by the plot.

 

As of early s4 and on a good day, Snow and Charming used to annoy the crap out of me, especially because of their attitude towards Emma. But if I took away anything from the 4x08 two hour episode it's that they are not characters. No, they are but pawns that the writers move about on their chess plot board. I may lean towards disliking Snowing, partly because of my perception that their main interest in Emma is that she's useful and "The Savior", but I can't even entirely buy that anymore now because the writing is so shit. At this point, it's not the characters, it's the writing that I blame.

 

I mean, after a whole night of worrying and desperately looking for Emma, Snow gets one phone call from Emma where she basically says "Oh, I'm just gonna kill part of myself and I'll be fixed. Then you won't be afraid of me and I'll be worthy of you all", and Snow and Charming are okay with that? I call bullshit. There's no way. It just doesn't ring true anymore for who they are. It just doesn't make sense. To go from full-on worry, to "Oh, well. Whatever. Hey, who wants a hot cocoa?" WTF! There's no way Snowing would've just been meandering up a road, lazily as possible, talking about Woegina's lurve problems while Emma is minutes from a making a horrible mistake (that will cost her her life). It's a load of crap. Even if they only wanted Emma for her powers they would at least being trying to stop her because she's just that handy what with her magic and all. There's no way I can make any of that make sense even if I think the worse of Snow and Charming.

 

So why were we given these scenes if they made no sense? Because the writers were only focused on two things: They wanted Regina to come off as the Yoda of parenting by telling Snow and Charming they were being idiots and rationalizing because they were afraid of Emma instead of embracing her for who she is. And secondly, they wanted Snow to approve of Woegina's adulterous relationship (and make no mistake, it is adultery) because, well, if Snow White says it's okay, then what's the big deal. Those were the reasons for those scenes -- just to get the story to those plot points -- character behavior and emotional authenticity be damned.

 

When the character motivations aren't born out of their actual emotions, their personal history, their typical behavior, or even drawn from any normal human reactions, then I can't pretend that these characters are even remotely real. It takes me out of the scenes, it takes me out of the fiction, out of the entire story, and all I can do is stare at the really bright neon strings that are moving the puppets on the stage. And who the hell watches a show (even a puppet show) to observe the strings being pulled??? The ratings nosedive was deserved because the writers failed to pay out on the stories they had built. And just like the stock market, if an investment shows that it's NOT going to make good on any returns, you sell and get the hell out while you still have your skivvies.

 

 

ETA:

That being said, Emma does care for Hook deeply.  If she doesn't wear her heart on her sleeve like Hook does, JMo at the very least always tries to show it in Emma's actions.  She is a lot closer to him now than she was say at the start of the season.  There are facial expressions, like the way she looks at him that don't lie.

That and even though Emma isn't normally a touchy-feely person -- she likes her personal space -- in the scenes she did have with Hook she's caressing his face, she's hanging on to him, she shows a lot of affectionate touches. Emma doesn't even come close to being as openly affectionate with anyone else than she does with Hook. And I don't think it can be said enough, for Emma to tell him "I can't lose you.", that's huge. Emma cares for him big time. There's no mistaking that.

Edited December 16, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Souris]

I vote we stage a coup of the OUAT offices and install Shanna Marie as the new show overlord. Or at the very least, Supreme Script Doctor. :)

[scenicbyway]

I haven't seen the entire episode yet but I've read a lot about it and seen the CS scenes. Why have the build up of taking Hook's heart for there to be no reaction from Emma? Zelena's lip curse scored more of a reaction from her even if it was that she wouldn't kiss him. It seem like the heart storyline would be there "moment" in this half season and it just went no where. Perhaps we'll get more of a reaction 4b when he's inevitably cursed by one or all of the 3 witches.

It's also out of character for Emma to have deserted Hook for Regina. To me, that's just baiting Swan Queen shippers especially since Robin is out of the picture (for now).

I think we are a long way from a TLK or IlY between Hook and Emma. Colin's latest interview seem to say that they are at the very beginning of their relationship. They've only established themselves as a "couple" in the last two episodes. We already know Regina and Robin are soulmates, why must we wait and wait for Hook and Emma's confirmation?

[Dani-Ellie]

See, I like the slow burn. It makes sense for both characters, I think. Plus, it's more realistic (and Emma, though she may in fact be a princess, is very much a grounded-in-the-real-world character when it comes to her life experience). In a genre where Love at First Sight is an actual thing, I like that Captain Swan has bucked the trend and is developing before our very eyes. Is it frustrating sometimes? Yes. But it's frustrating for me in the sense that it leaves me yearning for more, which is nice as opposed to being frustrated because "OMG you guys have known each other for a WEEK!" Insta-love doesn't do it for me; slow-burn flirty and sultry looks and cute kisses ... that's what does it for me.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[YaddaYadda]

Well they are technically at the start of their actual relationship.  It's been how long since they came back from the Enchanted Forest?

 

Also, upon re-watching the edits and this really and absolutely sucks to say but Hook blackmailing Rumple over the dagger, Rumple then blackmailing Hook over what happened to the Apprentice and then taking his heart had zero to do with Hook, Emma's reaction or Captain Swan.  It was all about Rumple's deceptions and Belle. This whole arc was Rumple's arc.  Hook was just the convenient guy because of his history with Rumple.

 

That's what it had to do with at the end of the day.  That's not saying that Hook's ordeal shouldn't have warranted an extra minute where him and Emma have a quick conversation where he promises to tell her everything in the morning.

 

Sometimes, I feel i should go spoiler free, no bts, no articles, no nothing, but I just can't.

 

ETA -

 

In a genre where Love at First Sight is an actual thing, I like that Captain Swan has bucked the trend and is developing before our very eyes.

I completely agree with this.  Love at first sight, love via fairy dust...Captain Swan are more of a real world romance with the fairy tale element to them.  That's what I like about them.  They're more realistic (or as far as realistic goes with this show).  Imagine that, Emma Swan, Fairy tale princess raised in the Land without Magic, a complete cynic when it comes to this kind of stuff falling in love with Captain Hook except that this one doesn't have the waxed mustache or perm.  And him, this devoted guy who is more of a prince charming for the person he loves than a pirate.  It's hard for me to not like them.

Edited December 15, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Stuffy]

After two situations in a year, Hook and Emma need a safe word or phrase. It's not for sex but for the next time Hook is being controlled by someone and can't say anything. Just sneak that random word or phrase into a conversation, and the villain doing the controlling won't realize it's a warning.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Stuffy

[The Cake is a Pie]

I like a slow-burn, too, but usually it comes with the anticipation of a good payoff. With this show, I'm not sure any payoff is coming. At least not on-screen.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm also a huge fan of the slow burn and love the pace the relationship between Emma and Hook is taking. I wasn't looking for a True Love's Kiss or even an I Love You at the end of this arc. But what I did want was a normal human reaction to an event that they established as one of Emma's big fears. They actually had an episode in which the subplot was her keeping him at a distance and then finally confessing that she was afraid of losing him, given the fate of every man she's loved. So when she comes upon him in the clutches of his enemy with his heart being squeezed, how does she react?

 

Maybe she would have hugged him in one of those "don't you dare ever leave my sight" embraces. Maybe she would have had some misplaced cathartic anger of the "if you get yourself killed, I'll never speak to you again" variety. Maybe she would have tried to play it cool, just saying "So, this was what was up with you. I knew something was off." Maybe she would have tried to break the mood and get him to smile by teasing him as she held his heart with what she could make him do: "I could order you to kiss me." "You don't need to hold my heart to get that, love."

 

Heck, even if he'd just been a friend and ally, I'd expect to see more of her response than what we got.

[Rumsy4]

I'm also a huge fan of the slow burn and love the pace the relationship between Emma and Hook is taking. I wasn't looking for a True Love's Kiss or even an I Love You at the end of this arc. But what I did want was a normal human reaction to an event that they established as one of Emma's big fears.

Exactly!! But I should have realized the futility of that expectation after Emma watched Regina burn her mother alive, and then begged Regina to be her friend.

[ABitOFluff]

Then there was the changed location for the re-hearting, which made no sense.

Maybe he wanted to wash it off first, and bathrooms at Granny's were the closest thing? Yeah, I got nothing.

 

Anyway, 24 hours later, I'm still mildly annoyed because not one thing I wanted to happen actually happened when it came to the heart situation. However, I'm starting to look at more as a blessing in disguise. It seems CS were largely ignored in the second half episodes because they're not driving the plot. And that's good, because I don't want their relationship to drive the plot. Not yet anyway. Yes, the writers will throw in roadblocks just for the sake of angst, but as someone else pointed out, the heart was actually more about Rumpbelle.

 

Like others, I also did not expect an "I Love You" because it's still too early, especially for Emma. I know that phrase can get thrown around pretty easily sometimes, especially on this show, but that kind of sentiment can be a huge deal for some people. For now, I will enjoy their slow burn and be happy with the little signals we get here and there: the hand holding, the touching, the smoldering looks, etc. And hey,

the fact that Emma's starting to dress like she's ready to set sail any minute must indicate another step forward for them

.

 

When and if Emma says those words, I hope I'll be grinning like a big doofus because it will have made total sense.

[Curio]

When and if Emma says those words, I hope I'll be grinning like a big doofus because it will have made total sense.

I really hope it ends up being in a moment where Emma is utterly happy and she consciously makes the decision to say it, not because of some last second life-or-death situation.

[Camera One]

Yep, and she sat down with Regina as an excuse to drink some alcohol since it's VERY exhausting to resolve an entire season's worth of plot in a single day.

[Rumsy4]

Not gonna lie, at the blank book library room, it looked for a moment that Regina was leaning in as though to kiss Emma. No one can blame SQ fans for hoping that these two women will end up together after this last episode. Emma blew off her boyfriend who had a near-death experience right in front of her eyes (after shoving his heart back in a dingy hallway in front of a bathroom) to hang out with Regina. And she is going to help Regina find her happy ending. Come on... it screams of gay subtext.

[RadioGirl27]

Not gonna lie, at the blank book library room, it looked for a moment that Regina was leaning in as though to kiss Emma. No one can blame SQ fans for hoping that these two women will end up together after this last episode. Emma blew off her boyfriend who had a near-death experience right in front of her eyes (after shoving his heart back in a dingy hallway in front of a bathroom) to hang out with Regina. And she is going to help Regina find her happy ending. Come on... it screams of gay subtext.

This, like the drinking scene, was pure queer baiting. Since the After Ellen debacle, the writers and, sadly, the actresses have just gave in to the bullies. I'm pretty sure we are going to get a lot more of this from now on.

Edited December 16, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Curio]

Can someone with a better memory help me out here? I'm trying to remember if Regina has ever said "I love you" back to Robin. I think Robin has said it numerous times to her, but I honestly can't recall if Regina has said it back. Part of me wonders if she's even that invested in him that much. There wasn't any talk between them about trying to figure out a way to break down the town barrier or even Regina going with Robin to New York. Obviously, Regina wouldn't leave Henry in Storybrooke, but it was technically an option if she wanted to still be with Robin. It's just hard for me to invest in their relationship when it seems like Robin only exists to give Regina angst.

[Dianthus]

I can't get invested in OQ at all. I'm not feeling anything between them, and I'm sick nigh unto death of having it shoved in my face! Just because the writers keep telling me it's true doesn't mean I believe them.

I've been with CS since the beginning, and the difference is like night and day. It just feels right to me.

[ShadowFacts]

I don't remember Regina ever saying she loved Robin, I'm not sure.  But the impression I get is that he is the one who is all invested in her, but she is mainly focused on this thing that she's being denied -- her happy ending,  Not so much Robin specifically.  I think a different happy ending will suffice.  Maybe that's just what I'm overlaying onto it because it is so lame, there's nothing much there, as Dianthus and Curio just said.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina has called Robin her "True Love" before, but I don't believe she has ever said it to him directly. She's more of a cut-to-the-chase taco making kind of gal. 

Edited December 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Musing about the aftermath of the latest bout of Rumple vs. Hook in the Hook thread got me started thinking: What would Rumple do to Belle if he faced her again?

 

Milah left him for another man and then jeered at him, and he murdered her. Belle foiled his scheme to get ultimate power and free himself from the dagger, then stripped him of his powers by forcing him over the town line, in spite of his pleading.

 

Did he actually grow enough in his time with Belle that he can get over that? Did he love Belle more than he loved Milah, so he's less likely to be vengeful? Or has Belle become his biggest enemy? It's hard to say because it's this show, he's a regular, they want to keep him around in town, and they have a tendency to pander to shippers, but if we're going with logic and character consistency (ha! I make myself laugh!), she's done the absolute worst thing possible to him, forced him into his worst nightmares. If he loves power at all costs and is willing to do anything to get power and if the thing he fears most is being powerless, she pretty much pushed every single one of his hot buttons. He wasn't even willing to let go of power to be with his son, and you know he wouldn't have willingly given it up for his wife. Now she's taken it from him, leaving him alone in a strange world, crippled, vulnerable, and powerless. Does he try to kill her when he comes back, or is he going to try to win her back? If he tries to win her back, would she even consider it? What would he have to do to prove to her that he'd really changed?

[Mari]

Will Rumple really believe it, though? That it was truly the end? Yes, she rejected him because of his behavior, but she's done that before and taken him back after what she considered a reasonable amount of penance. It wouldn't shock me if he believes Belle will fairly quickly take him back once she's had time to calm down. I'm hoping that doesn't happen, but am sort of expecting them to be back together by season's end, simply because the pattern is so established.

[OnceUponAJen]

I said in the 4x12 episode thread that I thought Belle was in trouble, and I think we have to assume that unless shown otherwise. I base this on his treatment of Milah and of other people who have "crossed" him in the past. She's just taken more from him than anyone else that I can think of....at least in his post-Dark One phase. I sincerely hope that Emma and Hook will be on hand to look out for her. I'm hoping they don't just buy that Rumple can never come back.

Edited December 17, 2014 by OnceUponAJen

[Worsel]

I don't think Rumple would turn against Belle, because he is self-aware enough to know he betrayed her first and in a very profound way.  And I think he recognizes how much it hurt her to betray him.  I think he wants her back but only on his terms, which is that he keeps his power.  Whether he can make that happen is questionable, but I believe he will try.  He tried to get Bae back for 200 years and displayed great patience with planning and waiting, I think he will do the same for Belle.

[Guest]

I don't think Rumple would turn against Belle, because he is self-aware enough to know he betrayed her first and in a very profound way.  And I think he recognizes how much it hurt her to betray him.  I think he wants her back but only on his terms, which is that he keeps his power.  Whether he can make that happen is questionable, but I believe he will try.  He tried to get Bae back for 200 years and displayed great patience with planning and waiting, I think he will do the same for Belle.

 

With Belle, I think he wants her back but I don't think he cares if he has to wipe great swaths of her memories or experiences to make it happen.   So it comes down to he won't kill her but will he twist and manipulate her into such a cipher that her fate may be worse than a clean death.

 

I've been really bothered by how often he puts a sleeping spell on Belle so he can hide his dastardly deeds and betrayals from her.  This last episode he was doing everything with Hook's heart tight in front of a "sleeping" Belle.  Its not a lot different that Robin professing his love,etc. to Regina in front of an inanimate Marian.  Only worse because he's subjugating Belle's free will while Ingrid was responsible for Marian.    I think we can also surmise that he was going to do some serious manipulation of Belle's memories and thought processes to make her leaving Storybrooke none the wiser to his deeds work.

[Amerilla]

When the character motivations aren't born out of their actual emotions, their personal history, their typical behavior, or even drawn from any normal human reactions, then I can't pretend that these characters are even remotely real. It takes me out of the scenes, it takes me out of the fiction, out of the entire story, and all I can do is stare at the really bright neon strings that are moving the puppets on the stage. And who the hell watches a show (even a puppet show) to observe the strings being pulled???

 

1000+, FabulousTater.

 

This was what struck me about the Rumbelle part of this episode/arc. Belle banishing Rumpel was a satisfying ending for the episode and for the arc leading into it, but I have to say that I would still have to categorize it as a writing failure in terms of the characters as a whole.

 

For the audience, this was a story that unfolded over many months (the final three episodes of 3b, the hiatus, and 4a), but for the characters has unfolded in the space of a few weeks. A few weeks ago, Rumpel was babbling nonsense to himself while locked in a cage in a root celler; a few weeks ago, he watched his son die; a few weeks ago, his every action was being controlled by Zelena. Less than a year ago, he was brought back from the dead. He spent almost an entire year with another human being locked inside his body and his mind.

 

That's quite a set of traumas, and they should have some weight and heft in defining his motivations in this arc. But because we can never talk about anything that doesn't directly relate to the PlotPlotPlot d'Arc, we really don't know how he's processing those traumas.

 

Side Note: I'm NOT talking about excusing Rumpel for his behavior because of those events, simply about presenting him as a holistic character - a person rather than a puppet.

 

Same with Belle. Yes, I did a little "you go girl" fist-pump during their big scene, but only because I had willingly suspended disbelief.

 

You can argue that Belle's love for Rumpel is wrong or that it comes from a bad place, but I don't think we can argue that it isn't genuine. This is a person who was so determined to hang on to this relationship that she resurrected him from the dead a few months ago.  A person who has endured every crappy thing that being in love with Rumpel has brought into her life - imprisoned, beaten, shot, kidnapped, isolated, tied up, threatened - and has still held on to that love. While everyone has a breaking point, I'm not sure that I buy that this would be Belle's.

 

I totally buy that she would step in and save Hook and use the dagger to make sure Rumpel didn't hurt him or anyone else, because we've seen her get in between Rumpel and others before. I have a harder time buying that she would take this betrayal, merge it with an open-to-interpretation comment about the gauntlet made 30 years ago, and come to the conclusion that he'd had never changed and never would - without asking questions about how this had come to pass, without really having a full picture of what was going on - and kicking his ass over the town line forever.

 

For me, it was sort of the opposite of Hook and Emma: that was all build-up with no payoff, this was all payoff with no build-up. 

 

Does he try to kill her when he comes back, or is he going to try to win her back? If he tries to win her back, would she even consider it?

 

I'm really dreading how this goes, because I like Belle and Rumpel as characters, and I would find it just  heartbreaking if he comes at her with vengence - and at the same time, I don't see how they can avoid that and stay true to the idea of making him the stone Big Bad. I don't think they'd ever have him actually kill her, but I have the feeling they'd walk up to the line. In either case, I don't see how they can walk it back to the point where they could reconnect.

 

Which doesn't mean they won't reconnect them, because, this show. But they've taken any semblence of love story out of the ship at this point.

[Rumsy4]

With Belle, I think he wants her back but I don't think he cares if he has to wipe great swaths of her memories or experiences to make it happen. So it comes down to he won't kill her but will he twist and manipulate her into such a cipher that her fate may be worse than a clean death.

I agree. I don't think he will attempt to kill her, but he will most definitely try to control or manipulate her. He never valued Belle as much as he did Baelfire. He sent her away in Skin Deep, and was ready to let her die at the S2, when he thought Neal was dead. We have seen him decieve her, freeze her, put her to sleep, and use her as his alibi, all without her consent. Ever since he was freed from Zelena's control, he has treated her as an object, than as a real human being. At some level, I think he does love her, but he doesn't respect her. He will keep trying to force his Happy Ending, which at this point, is still the same: cleave himself from the Dagger, keep his power, and have Belle by his side. So, as long as Rumple is alive, Killian has a big target painted on his back. And if he succeeds, there's nothing to stop him from carting Belle away, and modifying her memories to suit his purposes. I really don't see what will change his mind at this point, because the only person he cared for enough to give up his power for, is dead.

[Mari]

This was what struck me about the Rumbelle part of this episode/arc. Belle banishing Rumpel was a satisfying ending for the episode and for the arc leading into it, but I have to say that I would still have to categorize it as a writing failure in terms of the characters as a whole.

. . .

Which doesn't mean they won't reconnect them, because, this show. But they've taken any semblence of love story out of the ship at this point.

I think part of it is they have absolutely no idea what story they're actually telling.

 

This summer, there were some interviews with Carlyle, de Raven, and A&E where they were asked questions like "Does Rumple actually love Belle?"  "Did he mean the proposal?"  "What about the abuse and manipulation issues in the relationship?" and the actors and A&E seemed to be surprised people had those questions.

 

Now, whether you think Belle and Rumple are meant to be or not, he proposed while deceiving her.  He conned her, and has a history of lying to her--or at least hiding things from her.  I don't understand how you could write the story that way, and not see that some people will see those issues--even if your vision is that this is not permanently damaging to the relationship.

 

Then, when you follow it up with interview gems like this:

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Once-Upon-Time-Scoop-Cruella-1090932.aspx

Belle is heartbroken. What's next for her?

Horowitz: One of the things we loved about [the midseason finale] was that she finally got to stand up for herself. Belle is going to realize that she started out as someone who wanted to be a hero and save the world. She met Rumple, and then she was immediately married. So

I think Belle has a lot of exploration as an individual to do first.

 

 

She just met him and immediately married him?  She was living at Rumple's castle when Marian was pregnant with Roland.  Belle may have had some illusions about him, or about the impact she was having on him--but she was in that relationship with Rumple a while. 

 

She wasn't some 18 year old fresh out of the castle or finishing school. She was marching around the Enchanted Forest before she met him (adventuring with Mulan at one point and Anna at another, for example).    Do they pay so little attention to the canon of their own show that it hasn't clicked that she's known Rumple for at least five (noncursed) years?

 

By those standards, if that's immediately, Regina should still be learning what Robin's name is.

 

No wonder the characters' relationships often seem so ridiculous, and no wonder there is so often no long-lasting impact.  We might as well start the "when do ___ and ___ get back together" pool now, because it will happen as soon as they need a little plot space filled.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Mari

[The Cake is a Pie]

Immediate?? Even if they forgot about her being enslaved at the castle then imprisoned by Regina for 28 years, it hasn't been immediate even if you only consider her time with Gold in Storybrooke.

[YaddaYadda]

I think that's really the reason they threw in that line from Belle last season when she's with Neal in the Enchanted Forest where she tells him she loves every part of Rumple including the ones that belong to the darkness.

 

That was a huge WTF moment for me personally.

[Camera One]

this was all payoff with no build-up.

 

That's why I didn't feel satisfied by seeing Belle finally stand up against Rumple, which I had wanted to see.  The two of them hardly shared scenes in 4A apart from the premiere and Belle's centric.   When she actually commanded him using the dagger.  That just came out of the blue.  They had Belle tell Rumple she doesn't deserve him.  And then in this final episode, she does a 180 and that gauntlet ex machina suddenly changed everything?  There was no attempt to examine the psyche of Rumple nor Belle.  All arc, Rumple has acted smug, arrogant and without any regret or conscience.  So yay they get to write him as a villain again.  Except in the interviews, A&E say that Rumple wasn't acting with villainous motive.  Riiiiight.   

[YaddaYadda]

You know, I got to wonder how clueless about the dagger Belle really was.  She meets Anna in Arendelle and Anna tells her about the dark sorcerer and the hat and then Belle goes home and tells her father they should ask for Rumplestiltskin's help and then we have the whole mirror!Belle who tells real Belle how things really are and I just sort of wonder exactly how clueless Belle was as to what Rumple knew and didn't know and that may have been the whole reason she "commanded" him the first time around and he faked his way through it which might have actually reassured her that she did have the real dagger, that he really loved her and gave it to her until she followed the contrived gauntlet all the way to the dagger.

[Dianthus]

Musing about the aftermath of the latest bout of Rumple vs. Hook in the Hook thread got me started thinking: What would Rumple do to Belle if he faced her again?

 

Milah left him for another man and then jeered at him, and he murdered her. Belle foiled his scheme to get ultimate power and free himself from the dagger, then stripped him of his powers by forcing him over the town line, in spite of his pleading.

 

Did he actually grow enough in his time with Belle that he can get over that? Did he love Belle more than he loved Milah, so he's less likely to be vengeful? Or has Belle become his biggest enemy? It's hard to say because it's this show, he's a regular, they want to keep him around in town, and they have a tendency to pander to shippers, but if we're going with logic and character consistency (ha! I make myself laugh!), she's done the absolute worst thing possible to him, forced him into his worst nightmares. If he loves power at all costs and is willing to do anything to get power and if the thing he fears most is being powerless, she pretty much pushed every single one of his hot buttons. He wasn't even willing to let go of power to be with his son, and you know he wouldn't have willingly given it up for his wife. Now she's taken it from him, leaving him alone in a strange world, crippled, vulnerable, and powerless. Does he try to kill her when he comes back, or is he going to try to win her back? If he tries to win her back, would she even consider it? What would he have to do to prove to her that he'd really changed?

Weirdly, I have this line in my head:

Hook (to Rumple): all your wives are belong to me.

As has been pointed out before, Hook actually stood up for Belle in a couple of conversations with Rumple. He said that she truly loved Rumple (without any sort of judgment/editorializing). It was very much a twist (which A & E love almost as much as Regina) having her save the man who shot her, and she didn't even know about having his support.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

This summer, there were some interviews with Carlyle, de Raven, and A&E where they were asked questions like "Does Rumple actually love Belle?"  "Did he mean the proposal?"  "What about the abuse and manipulation issues in the relationship?" and the actors and A&E seemed to be surprised people had those questions.

 

Except in the interviews, A&E say that Rumple wasn't acting with villainous motive.  

Taking this to The Writers of OUAT thread.

[Serena]

I started out liking the concept of Robin and Regina. Why not, it was sassy and sexy and a totally different approach than the ever traumatic angst of Hook and Emma inching their way towards a UST coupling that was, frankly, clearly planned from the first step on the beanstalk. Even having to drudge our way through the ridiculously middle school, *beige* and dullard Neal crap, the end game was pretty well laid out for all to see. The A&E tease was in full blown mode.

Okay, I seem to remember most people (except really diehard CS fans) claiming until... at least up to 307, that Neal and Emma was clearly endgame. Do you guys think the triangle was A&E clever-est misdirect ever? EVERYONE thought they were going for Neal and Emma. Even though, frankly, they mostly showed Neal being a dick to Emma. Were they trying to fake us out? Was this a clever social commentary on the audience's expectation for the bio parents to end up together, even when the story was going another way, and we can only see what they were going for now, since we know CS is endgame?