Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Mari]

I actually am fairly confident that's the endgame for Rumpel--a normal, magic-less life with Belle.

 

 

  It makes no sense why Belle wouldn't have asked Rumple for it.  And it's oh so sad that Rumple would give up magic for Belle but not for Neal, who is long dead and his influence on Rumple lasted about 5 minutes after he expired.

That might be the best possible outcome for Rumple, except for one thing.  Would Belle still be in love with a Rumple who was noticeably less powerful and dark?  I know that there's no way for Rumple to become his original self completely, but at the same time, I think Belle would have completely overlooked and been disinterested in original Rumple.  

 

The little bit of characterization they've bothered to give Belle is that she craves adventure.  Stay at home, village outcast, no power at all Rumple is the opposite of that, and at least some of Rumple's darkness that she loves has to be from the "Dark One" curse.

 

Powerless Rumple might be Rumple's happiest ending, but I think Belle (the way they've written her so far) would hate it, no matter what the writers tell us if it happens.

[Serena]

I don't even think powerless Rumple is Rumple's happy ending. After so many years as the most powerful person around, there's NO WAY Rumple can have any kind of peace of mind as a powerless nobody.

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple is on the quest for even more power than he has.  When he stood in front of that hat in 4x01, he looked like a crack addict.  And frankly, I don't think Belle gives a fig as long as she is with him.  She can be all self-righteous over some of the things he does, but she's a hypocrite.  Love can't be that blind, can it?  She just stood there practically rolling her eyes at Emma when she mentioned the vault (of terrors).  And I'm not even sure she changed at all when it comes to Rumple.  I happened to watch Queen of Hearts last night out of sheer boredom and I changed my mind completely.  I always sort of thought that the change in her happened after she got the Lacey transplant, but really, no.

[stealinghome]

I don't even think powerless Rumple is Rumple's happy ending. After so many years as the most powerful person around, there's NO WAY Rumple can have any kind of peace of mind as a powerless nobody.

I think the happy ending will be the implication that Rumpel has grown enough to be content with no magic, though (or at least not having Dark One magic--I'm sure he'd still be able to whip up potions and do minor stuff). In the series finale, I see him intentionally giving up his magic because he's realized that he doesn't need it and can be happy without it and truly is ready to be his better self, etc etc etc. Not unlike 3x11, really. I mean, if we go with the addiction metaphor everyone keeps using for Rumpel, he can't stay an addict and have a real happy ending. He has to get clean and realize the "drug" is just a crutch. If it's done right (which it won't be, of course), I do, actually, think it could work. if nothing else, Carlyle could really sell it.

 

I agree that the bigger problem is that Belle seems to want adventure and Rumpel is a total homebody, but (imo) they will just gloss over that and suggest Belle is happy to play house with Rumpel. They just don't care enough about Belle's character to be true to her in that way. Though--it also depends on what land everyone ends up living in, at the end of the day. If they're all in Storybrooke, they pretty much all have to live out quiet lives, there's no other option. The Enchanted Forest would be a bit trickier, but maybe she'll leave Rumpel at home with the kids to go off and adventure with the Charmings every once in a while?

[Camera One]

I think the happy ending will be the implication that Rumpel has grown enough to be content with no magic, though (or at least not having Dark One magic--I'm sure he'd still be able to whip up potions and do minor stuff). In the series finale, I see him intentionally giving up his magic because he's realized that he doesn't need it and can be happy without it and truly is ready to be his better self, etc etc etc. Not unlike 3x11, really. I mean, if we go with the addiction metaphor everyone keeps using for Rumpel, he can't stay an addict and have a real happy ending. He has to get clean and realize the "drug" is just a crutch. If it's done right (which it won't be, of course), I do, actually, think it could work. if nothing else, Carlyle could really sell it.

 

Yes, this is clearly going to be one of Rumple's upcoming story arcs whether it is the endgame or not.  We've already seen his redemption once.  Why not see it again! It's another wash, rinse, repeat.  It's more subtly done than Regina's, but it's still the same thing and Caryle and arguably any of the actors could carry off a cry-I'm-now-redeemed....again arc.  

 

 

 

The little bit of characterization they've bothered to give Belle is that she craves adventure.  Stay at home, village outcast, no power at all Rumple is the opposite of that, and at least some of Rumple's darkness that she loves has to be from the "Dark One" curse.

Powerless Rumple might be Rumple's happiest ending, but I think Belle (the way they've written her so far) would hate it, no matter what the writers tell us if it happens.

 

Belle's character has been all over the place, to the point where it's very unclear who she is or what she wants.  She was crudely drawn from the very beginning.  Why did she volunteer to go work for the Dark One?  Was it for adventure and to get away from her humdrum life or was it a selfless sacrifice?  Did she miss her family and friends in Rumple's castle?   What about Rumple does she love?  The challenge of redeeming him or the "dark bits"?  I'm not convinced that Belle would be dissatisfied with a non-magical Rumple.  As stealinghome said, there are a million other ways to seek adventure apart from having your significant other be a borderline psycho with more power than practically everyone else in the universe.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Camera One

[Joanh23]

I think when they started the series, Bae was going to be Rumple's happy ending, but then when the fandom went crazy for Belle and Rumple in Skin Deep (which A&E admitted totally caught them by surprise), they changed their minds and decided that Belle would be Rumple's happy ending.   The problem is they don't know how to write for that story - Belle has been written so badly that at this stage I don't really care what happens to her.  

[scenicbyway]

I have a huge problem with Henry not being ok with Emma asking Hook out on a date.  Yet, he's cheerleading Regina and Robin Hood, even though Robin is still married and Marion is in an ice coma.  The idea that TLK didn't work on Marion seems to be one of the reasons why Henry's in favor of Robin.  We also saw that Henry was excited at the docks last season when his memory came back and Regina introduced Robin to Regina.  I get that it might be cool to have Robin as a stepdad, but Hook is the one who's actually been involved in Henry's life.  Has Robin even taken Henry for ice cream?

 

Last season, Hook offered his ship and services in order to "Save Henry."  Hook offered to take care of Henry and share stories about Bae with him.  Memory addled Henry wanted to spend time with Hook over MM and David because he was cool.  I get that Henry doesn't know that Hook traded his ship to get back to them, but he does know that Hook came for them in New York. 

 

I just don't get the sudden change of heart where Hook is concerned.  I will say, though, Henry looked like he couldn't wait to get away from Emma when they were standing outside the diner.  I get that Jared and Lana have a closer bond than Jen and Jared, but it was painfully obvious to me in that scene and the subsequent ones with Regina that he really likes acting with Lana.

[Dani-Ellie]

I just don't get what they're doing with Henry this season, period. The Henry from these past four episodes is not at all the same Henry from the previous three seasons.

 

I'm calling it now: he's a changeling. :P

Edited October 20, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

Captain Swan, whether you love them or you don't give a flip, is currently the show's most focused on couple. I ship it, but lately I've found it's really not that perfect. The way they've been handled in S4 has been saturated.

The big kiss in Good Form was a huge deal. Their kiss at the end of Theres No Place Like Home was a highlight of the finale. Now we're getting them almost every episode, and it's not as "magical" to me any more. They're more like gif fodder.

We haven't explored the bare bones of the relationship itself, either. Emma hasn't explained why she trusts Hook without knowing very much about his past, and we haven't seen why Hook wants Emma besides tacos. They're both a little beyond the crush stage where this stuff doesn't matter as much.

I wish the CS date could have been used to solidify the relationship more. Not a serious conversation, but more about them learning about each other, since that's the point of dating. Instead we got the cursed hand, which unlike what A&E think, is not more satisfying.

[stealinghome]

I would bet that the writers can't themselves articulate what Hook and Emma really dig about each other. (nb: I'm not saying there aren't things about Hook Emma likes and vice versa, I'm saying I doubt, if you asked the writers, that they know what those things are.)

[Curio]

I wish the CS date could have been used to solidify the relationship more. Not a serious conversation, but more about them learning about each other, since that's the point of dating.

I'm pretty sure the amount of time they spent focusing on Anna holding the sword to Rumple's heart was longer than the entire Captain Swan date. 

 

But seriously, I have no idea why the writers are allergic to character growth. Hell, they put more effort into the radio weather announcer's dialogue in Emma's car than they did with the dialogue during the date. Here's the worst part - considering Hook was freaked out about his left hand, Emma might have done most of the talking during their date. Which means we could have learned more about Emma's past! Damn it writers, why are you holding back on us?!

Edited October 20, 2014 by Curio

[scenicbyway]

Captain Swan, whether you love them or you don't give a flip, is currently the show's most focused on couple. I ship it, but lately I've found it's really not that perfect. The way they've been handled in S4 has been saturated.

The big kiss in Good Form was a huge deal. Their kiss at the end of Theres No Place Like Home was a highlight of the finale. Now we're getting them almost every episode, and it's not as "magical" to me any more. They're more like gif fodder.

We haven't explored the bare bones of the relationship itself, either. Emma hasn't explained why she trusts Hook without knowing very much about his past, and we haven't seen why Hook wants Emma besides tacos. They're both a little beyond the crush stage where this stuff doesn't matter as much.

I wish the CS date could have been used to solidify the relationship more. Not a serious conversation, but more about them learning about each other, since that's the point of dating. Instead we got the cursed hand, which unlike what A&E think, is not more satisfying.

I can't believe I'm saying this...but I agree about the kisses.  I can only guess it's the last we'll see of them kissing for a while now that Hook is again keeping secrets.  I do think the date probably did solidify the relationship for the characters, I'm sure the writers just thought no one beyond shippers wants to hear the first date banter so we had a taste of it and saw the drama, but beyond that it was just typical date chatter.

[Emma]

I don't mind the kisses and sweetness they've been pouring on for CS for the simple fact it's nice to see Emma so open, happy, and trying to enjoy those good moments during the bad ones. Finally!!

I don't need to see that every episode but it works for now.

[Amerilla]

Last season, Hook offered his ship and services in order to "Save Henry."  Hook offered to take care of Henry and share stories about Bae with him.  Memory addled Henry wanted to spend time with Hook over MM and David because he was cool.  I get that Henry doesn't know that Hook traded his ship to get back to them, but he does know that Hook came for them in New York.

 

There's a difference between "guy who occasional babysits me" and "guy who wants to date my mom." To a tween who now has memories of a whole life with Emma, and is now readjusting to split custody between Emma and Regina, "Babysitter Hook" could be cool, whereas "Date Night Hook" could be competition for Emma's attention -  of which he now has less of than he used to. I can also see where his concerns about Regina being happy would make OQ less of a struggle for him.

 

But that's probably giving it more thought than the writers have. 

 

In general, I sense that Captain Cobra, like Hookfire, looms much larger in the fandom than it does in the show. In the show, it's not much more than a slender thread they pick up and drop and change the shading of as needed to advance the plot. Maybe we haven't seen Hood take Henry out for ice cream or anything like that, but unless I missed something (which is entirely possible) have we seen Hook seem all that interested in Henry since "A Curious Thing"?

 

(Do Hood and Henry have a bro-ship name? "Outlaw Mongoose" has a ring to it.)

Edited October 20, 2014 by Amerilla

[Lady Calypso]

I think the major problem when it comes to characterization is that the show likes to take its time and explain little things over a long period of time. They have tons of action, but very little character development unless it's explained in a one off scene. Unless it's about Regina, of course. It's why we are only now getting some Captain Swan, but only enough to reel the fans in. They're very sneaky and manipulative in that way. They prefer drama and Regina over all else. It's why we barely know anything about David's life before he became Charming, but we know plenty about Regina before she became the Evil Queen. It's why romance is dealt with in small doses, unless it's season 1 and we actually do get Snowing's backstory. 

 

But too much time can be too much for a television show. We know too much about Regina, but too little about David. We know a lot about Rumple, but only when he's interacting with the guest/recurring characters who he's making deals with in the past. It's why Snow's flashbacks mostly deal with Regina, and sometimes with Charming (and Red that one episode) but not just her by herself. The show has trouble prioritizing how to tell people's stories without relying on other characters to do it. Even stupid Tamara had to be inserted into August's backstory in season 2 so we know her purpose and we might care about her with a popular character. 

 

As much as I'd love to know more about Emma's backstory, as we don't get much on her, we won't really get that chance because the show is obsessed with the fairytale aspects. We were lucky in season 2 because they wanted to introduce Henry's father, but we don't get much of her adventures (besides a couple of minutes here and there, like in last season's finale). 

[scenicbyway]

I did want to mention something about Hook and Emma's first date--how supportive they are of each other.  We've seen Hook support Emma countless times, heck, even when she walked into the diner he was worried he'd missed out on the search for DQ and when she said he didn't he reassured her that she'd find her.  Back to the date, we saw Emma talk about her day and that she had no new leads on the case, yet, Hook took her hands and reassured her that they would find her.  Then we saw Hook really down about grabbing Will, but this time we saw Emma take his hand and reassure him that it was no big deal.  That's what good couples do, they support each other.  It was nice to see the mutual support on the date, because normally it's one sided (mostly from Hook).

[Rumsy4]

It's just too bad that just when Emma is opening up, Hook seems to be regressing. I just hope Hook comes clean sooner than later, but I have very little hope.

[Crimson Belle]

 

Do Hood and Henry have a bro-ship name?

WoodenandWoodener.

[FabulousTater]

Do Hood and Henry have a bro-ship name?

Ooh, I'll play!

 

Let's see, The Truest Stupid and Robin "Mr. Bold and Audacious" Hood....

Audaciously Stupid?

[scenicbyway]

Looking back at their "Good Form" kiss (for science) and Hook's reaction to the kiss, Emma had a similar reaction to last night's kiss.  In "Good Form," Hook is breathless and momentarily stunned by the kiss, we learn later, that's the moment he knew he could give up on his love for Milah and possibly move on with Emma.  After Emma closed the door, she looked similarly stunned until Snow interrupted her moment.  I wonder if we'll see that, that was the moment Emma knew she could move on with Hook, after having lost every other guy she's ever liked.

[pezgirl7]

It's just too bad that just when Emma is opening up, Hook seems to be regressing. I just hope Hook comes clean sooner than later, but I have very little hope.

 

That's why it's such a redux of the whole cursed lips fiasco. Emma was standing at her door, ready to finally open up, wondering why Hook wasn't coming to dinner with them, and he skulks away. It's one step forward, two steps back. I really wish they could get more than one episode when they're both on the same page as far as their relationship goes.

 

Looking back at their "Good Form" kiss (for science) and Hook's reaction to the kiss, Emma had a similar reaction to last night's kiss.  In "Good Form," Hook is breathless and momentarily stunned by the kiss, we learn later, that's the moment he knew he could give up on his love for Milah and possibly move on with Emma.  After Emma closed the door, she looked similarly stunned until Snow interrupted her moment.  I wonder if we'll see that, that was the moment Emma knew she could move on with Hook, after having lost every other guy she's ever liked.

 

A lot of people on tumblr think it means that Emma now realizes that she loves Hook. I'm not sure if she's at that place yet, but I think she definitely realizes there's truly 'something' there with Hook. Saying that, I definitely wouldn't mind if that was her epiphany moment of falling for him. :)

Edited October 20, 2014 by pezgirl7

[scenicbyway]

That's why it's such a redux of the whole cursed lips fiasco. Emma was standing at her door, ready to finally open up, wondering why Hook wasn't coming to dinner with them, and he skulks away. It's one step forward, two steps back. I really wish they could get more than one episode when they're both on the same page as far as their relationship goes.

 

 

A lot of people on tumblr think it means that Emma now realizes that she loves Hook. I'm not sure if she's at that place yet, but I think she definitely realizes there's truly 'something' there with Hook. Saying that, I definitely wouldn't mind if that was her epiphany moment of falling for him. :)

What leads me to think that Tumblr might be on to something with Emma's feelings are two things that have happened:

 

1.  Emma's admitted to Hook that she "can't" lose him.  He's that important to her.

 

2.  The "Apprentice" kiss mirrored the "Good Form" kiss down to her reaction behind the door.  The same music also played during both kisses.

 

Obviously, last night also set up angst for the couple.  But I think where we've seen Hook fight to win Emma's affection over the last year, we'll now see Emma fight to keep Hook, not for lack of her affections but because he still needs to find himself.  Emma needed to find herself before she could be open to Hook, he needs to find himself while being supported by Emma.

[Camera One]

I wish the CS date could have been used to solidify the relationship more. Not a serious conversation, but more about them learning about each other, since that's the point of dating. 

 

After the date, Emma said it got her to stop thinking about the Snow Queen.  I'm seriously curious what they talked about.  I imagine the writers don't even know.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

I mean, that's seriously one of the questions I have about Captain Swan (and why I can't get on-board with them fully): what do they talk about? How Henry's doing in world history (which Hook knows nothing about)? The best way to tie a knot for a sail (which Emma knows nothing about)? Granny's lasagna? The state of the Storybrooke jail cells? If the show wants me to invest in them as a couple, they have to give them some substance. Right now imo it still feels very superficial.

Edited October 21, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

 

If the show wants me to invest in them as a couple, they have to give them some substance. Right now imo it still feels very superficial.

Right now, it seems to be based on feelings. I can catch a glimpse of what Hook sees in Emma, but not necessarily what she sees in him. If Emma's life is lacking without him, what exactly does she lack? I might be able to create a solution in my head, but the show hasn't laid it out itself. It's like her relationship with the Charmings - we don't know why they're supposedly happy with each other, but they are. It's nowhere near as bad as OQ, but it's a similar issue. There's little substance.

 

Why does Emma trust a womanizing drunk pirate, anyway? Because he loves her lots? Tacos seem to be on the brain for both of them.

Edited October 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

Regarding Henry and Hook, I never thought Henry liked him that much in the first place. They had one meaningful interaction about Henry's father which occurred while Henry did not have possession of all his memories. Their other 3B interactions consisted of squabbling and Hook foiling Henry's escape plan. The first time Henry saw Hook, he was knocked out after just having put his hook through Henry's newly discovered grandfather's heart. As much as I dislike the idea of a Henry/Gold relationship after Gold's attempted murder of his own grandson and the fact that he was not properly raked over the coals for it (and I rather suspect we're supposed to feel sympathy for Gold over Henry using him for Operation Mongoose), that was not a good first impression for Hook to make. Also, Hook taking off with the bean led directly to Henry's kidnapping. IMO, Henry should feel gratitude towards Hook for the the risks he's taken on behalf of Henry and his family, but gratitude should not translate to "here's my mom, you two have fun."

 

OTOH, I dislike Henry or any child having a say in their parents' love lives, unless said love life is actively causing the child harm. It kind of grosses me out, TBH. So really I'd rather that conversation had not been included at all and I could also do without Henry's Outlaw Queen shipping. It's also weird that the show has not bothered to give Henry any reaction to Gold's marriage. It almost comes off like Henry is only unnecessarily into his female family members' love lives and that's just icky.

Edited October 21, 2014 by InsertWordHere

[Camera One]

The writers probably watched "About a Boy" one too many times.  

[KAOS Agent]

 

I mean, that's seriously one of the questions I have about Captain Swan (and why I can't get on-board with them fully): what do they talk about?

 

Truthfully, the kind of conversations people would have that are normal would be boring as hell, so I don't really care. That said, I would've liked it if they'd had Emma say something like "Tell me a story" and faded out of the date from there. It's a nice open-ended tell me something about you without it being weird and helps me with head canon that they could then jump into mutual tales of their past or wherever the conversation might lead.

[Rumsy4]

I'm still very much aboard Captain Swan, despite all the stupidity, and I don't feel like their relationship is solely based on chemistry or lust (unlike OQ).  At the same time, my mind boggles at the fact that the writers did not bother to write at least two sentences of the kind of topics Emma and Hook may have talked about during their date. Especially after all that hype. Even in Neverland, Hook and Emma managed to have some really brief, but meaningful conversations. Couldn't they write something in? The writers are really allergic to conversations that don't involve plot! or victim-blaming these days. Sad... 

[Lieutenant]

Right now, it seems to be based on feelings. I can catch a glimpse of what Hook sees in Emma, but not necessarily what she sees in him. If Emma's life is lacking without him, what exactly does she lack? I might be able to create a solution in my head, but the show hasn't laid it out itself. 

 

Why does Emma trust a womanizing drunk pirate, anyway? Because he loves her lots? 

Feelings make up a huge part of it, sure.  And like you said, at least on Hook's side, there's been plenty of action.  Hopefully, now we're gonna see Emma actively working to make this relationship grow.

 

What is Emma lacking?  Someone who values her above the collective.  Someone who wants to know her intimately in every way (emotionally, physically, etc.) just because of who she is, not how she can be "used" in a given situation.  Someone who cares about what she's thinking and feeling.  Someone to offer encouragement in times of struggle, yet someone unafraid to take off the kid gloves and kick-start some growth/maturity/soul searching when needed.  I feel like this has been shown on screen pretty well.  Maybe it's easier for us to see, since we're all here breaking down the show into its minutiae every day?  Getting emotional feedback from Emma is like trying to squeeze blood from a turnip, but her admission in 4.03 was pretty big.  Hook's obviously become a welcome and expected fixture in her life now, and it's something she's very afraid to lose, whatever the reasons (of which I happen to think there are plenty, but ymmv).

[Camera One]

Even in Neverland, Hook and Emma managed to have some really brief, but meaningful conversations. 

 

Meaningful yes, but not exactly fun-date-conversation.  I really doubt Hook would have been into discussing his life on the high seas since half his mind was on The Hand.  And what would Emma talk about?  Her life in the foster system?  Her time in jail?  Not to mention navigating around the topic of Neal.  What's left?  Her life as a Savior?  But how does that get her mind off the Snow Queen?  Also doubting she was discussing her year off in New York.  Nor reminiscing about the good ol' times when he was a lackey for Cora.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I'd bet Emma has a ton of bounty hunting stories. Since she'd just had wine spilled on her, she could easily recount the tale of the embezzling jackass we saw in the premiere who spilled wine on her. There are things to talk about. Does Emma like Italian food? Henry mentioned the gelato in Little Italy, so why couldn't they talk about that? Does Hook know Italian food? We know he's not a fan of bologna. It's really not that difficult to see them finding something to talk about.

Edited October 21, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

I was also wondering if Emma noticed Hook was distracted by The Hand during the date.  Or did Hook fake his way through the rest of it so well Emma couldn't tell?

[stealinghome]

What is Emma lacking?  Someone who values her above the collective.  Someone who wants to know her intimately in every way (emotionally, physically, etc.) just because of who she is, not how she can be "used" in a given situation.

I'm not disagreeing, but while I get that Emma likes that Hook likes her so much, I don't really see what she sees in Hook beyond the fact that he likes her so much. What you described sounds to me like what just about anyone is looking for in a romantic partner--like, I agree with everything you said, but I don't necessarily see it as being Emma-specific. Obviously ymmv, but for me, if Emma was to meet someone tomorrow who's just as into her as Hook is, I'd be hard-pressed to name the qualities about Hook that would lead her to pick Hook over NuGuy. I'm not saying they're not there and can't be developed; but I think it would be a good idea for the show to develop them ASAP, if they're serious about keeping Captain Swan as a long-term thing (as I think they obviously are). Because right now I, at least, am not finding much to latch onto, and this is the moment--when Captain Swan is being taken from flirtation to Something More--where I should be beginning to see real substance there.

 

As KingOfHearts said, it's somewhat easier to see what Hook sees in Emma, given that he obviously has a thing for bold and audacious women (in the true sense of the term!) and Emma was kind to him at a moment when no one else was. But I still think they rushed him being in insta-puppy love.

Edited October 21, 2014 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

I just realized "Bold and audacious" can be abbreviated BAAAAAAAAAAAA.  I guess we know who Robin Hood's next hot date after Regina is going to be.

[FabulousTater]

I don't really see what she sees in Hook beyond the fact that he likes her so much. What you described sounds to me like what just about anyone is looking for in a romantic partner--like, I agree with everything you said, but I don't necessarily see it as being Emma-specific. [...]

Just to play devil's advocate, but how is this different from Charming and Snow? I mean, the whole development of Snow and Charming's relationship in flashbacks was based on "I will find you! I will always find you!!" That's it. It's not like we were privy to either of them sharing "Hey, one time, at band camp..." stories with each other. (And even in season 3 they didn't take their conversations any further than "We should take the time to have kids..."). IMO, Snowing's relationship, as developed on screen, has been dependent on how they are devoted to each other and not on their scintillating conversations, and Emma and Hook's relationship has been thus far developed in the same way.

 

I just think the show (the writers, really) go with the chemistry between the actors and then write the couple devoted to each other. The character's show their depth of feelings for each other in their actions, how they play off each other, and support each other. That's how this show does romance (and for the record, as far as Snow and Charming, and Emma and Hook, it works for me). The success of the pairing is dependent on the degree to which people buy it and that is dependent on how much they buy into the couples' chemistry. Viewers that may not see the chemistry (though others find it "amazing!") between Snow and Charming just go with it because that's the story we know (Snow White and Prince Charming, that's the story) and not because it's been sold to us with in-depth conversations that the characters have all the time. Same with Hook and Emma, I think. Those that don't see chemistry between Emma and Hook aren't entirely sold (and yet can't rely on the predetermined fates as True Love (like Snow and Charming) because that has yet to be decided), but those that do see Emma and Hook's chemistry together (and think it's "amazing!") have boarded the ship and set sail.

 

ETA: I personally don't have a problem with how Emma and Hook have been written as a couple/developing love story, thus far. I think the characters have enough in common to have plenty to talk about so I can fill that in myself if I really need/want to. While it would be nice to be privy to those conversations, I like what they've shown us between Emma and Hook and I'm looking forward to more (tbh, it's one of the only few developing stories I look forward to and really enjoy when watching this show).

Edited October 21, 2014 by FabulousTater

[retrograde]

I mean, that's seriously one of the questions I have about Captain Swan (and why I can't get on-board with them fully): what do they talk about? How Henry's doing in world history (which Hook knows nothing about)? The best way to tie a knot for a sail (which Emma knows nothing about)? Granny's lasagna? The state of the Storybrooke jail cells? If the show wants me to invest in them as a couple, they have to give them some substance. Right now imo it still feels very superficial.

 

Interesting. "What would they talk about over dinner?" is the exact question that is often a dealbreaker for me with TV romances. Especially ones that have massive age gaps -- I find it hard to buy hundreds-years-old vampires falling for 20-something humans and not finding them super dull. I just can't get behind Oliver and Felicity on Arrow because their personalities and interests (and intelligence levels) just don't seem the align.

 

But I don't really struggle imaging this with Emma and Hook. I can imagine she would be interested in hearing about his stories from the seas, and he her life as a bail bondsperson. I think both could follow these conversations just fine. I think they would discuss whatever the current crisis is and whatever skirmish they've just been in and whatever is going on in the town. Sure they couldn't discuss the minutiae of Henry's homework, but Hook seems generally interested in his wellbeing and that of her family. Emma doesn't strike me as someone who wants to discuss world politics. They seem to have similar interests and are of similar intelligence levels and appreciate each other's senses of humor. I can see them watching a movie and then having a productive discussion or debate about that movie -- even if Emma has to explain a bit. Hook is technically a lot older, but I don't think he really matured in Neverland and he definitely didn't in the Coradome. 

 

Now Rumple and Belle -- I have zero idea what they talk about. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by retrograde

[pezgirl7]

As far as what Emma sees in Hook, I think it can be as simple as he makes her happy. He makes her smile and laugh. He's constantly complimenting her and supporting her, while impelling her to open up, even if it scares her. He pushes her and wants her to be the best she can be, while still supporting her when she screws up. Sure, there could be other guys out there that could do all that, but they're not in Emma's orbit right now. Hook's the guy. They've been through a lot together, and have similar backgrounds as far as losing loved ones, being abandoned, being alone. Plus, and yes, I'm gonna say it, he's hot. :P They have amazing chemistry, which I think is important in an adult relationship.

[Souris]

I just realized "Bold and audacious" can be abbreviated BAAAAAAAAAAAA.  I guess we know who Robin Hood's next hot date after Regina is going to be.

 

I hereby christen Outlaw Peep!

[KAOS Agent]

 

Now Rumple and Belle -- I have zero idea what they talk about.

 

Yeah, that's the one I'd love the answer to. They didn't even talk in their falling in love episode. Can you just imagine dinner conversation in that household? Talk about life stories that should never be discussed. And Belle's life has got to be even more boring past and present. How was your day in the empty library, dear? I don't really see how Rumpel would be interested or even care.

[Camera One]

Just to play devil's advocate, but how is this different from Charming and Snow? I mean, the whole development of Snow and Charming's relationship in flashbacks was based on "I will find you! I will always find you!!" That's it. It's not like we were privy to either of them sharing "Hey, one time, at band camp..." stories with each other. (And even in season 3 they didn't take their conversations any further than "We should take the time to have kids..."). IMO, Snowing's relationship, as developed on screen, has been dependent on how they are devoted to each other and not on their scintillating conversations, and Emma and Hook's relationship has been thus far developed in the same way.

 

I do agree that none of the romances have been developed well at all on this show, Snowing included, but I've never really had difficulties imagining Charming and Snow being able to talk easily.  To begin, they're both from the same world and they're both around the same age.  Even though Snow was raised in a palace while Charming grew up on a farm, Snow didn't have a normal childhood and was on the road a lot with her father, and she was forced to live on her own as a bandit so had a taste of life as a commoner.  Charming meanwhile had a small taste of royalty with his time at King George.  Moreover, their personalities make them both much more easy-going.  Snow could make friends easily with male and female alike, from creatures as diverse as mermaids and dwarves.  Charming is friendly and understanding.  So I think there is a difference between Snow/Charming and Emma/Hook.  The difference is not necessarily in the quality of the writing, but moreso in the personalities of the characters themselves, which make the relationship easier to buy.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

Yeah, that's the one I'd love the answer to. They didn't even talk in their falling in love episode. Can you just imagine dinner conversation in that household? Talk about life stories that should never be discussed. And Belle's life has got to be even more boring past and present. How was your day in the empty library, dear? I don't really see how Rumpel would be interested or even care.

I just imagine Belle comes home everyday with a new story about someone she ran into who got the bad end of a Rumple deal.

[FabulousTater]

I do agree that none of the romances have been developed well at all on this show, Snowing included, but I've never really had difficulties imagining Charming and Snow being able to talk easily.

[...]

So I think there is a difference between Snow/Charming and Emma/Hook.  The difference is not necessarily in the quality of the writing, but moreso in the personalities of the characters themselves, which make the relationship easier to buy.

I disagree. I think in the same way that there are commonalities between Snow and Charming despite different upbringings, there exist plenty of common life experiences and personality traits between Emma and Hook that I can easily see why they are attracted to each other and would pursue a relationship.

 

Emma and Hook both have been abandoned, forced to fend for themselves, and have lived much of their lives looking out for themselves. They have both been thieves in their pasts (for one, the nearer past than the other) and both are trying to find their footing in Storybrooke and figuring out how to belong in a community, which is a strange and new experience for them both. Both have been deeply hurt by loss of love and both of their reactions was to guard their hearts and armor themselves from loving again. They seem to share similar temperaments and senses of humor, and both see the world in degrees of gray versus "black and white" -- they are willing to cross the line for those they love -- and they are both fiercely loyal and willing to put their life on the line for those they love. 

 

I think they have plenty in common. Just as Snow and Charming found commonalities despite the fact that he was a shepherd for most of his life and she a princess, Emma and Hook have more than enough in common for them to have a successful relationship. I simply don't see how Snow and Charming are any better in the "they have so much in common!" department than Emma and Hook.

Edited October 21, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Souris]

I have zero trouble imagining Hook and Emma having things to talk about. It's a shame we don't get to see such things on this show -- no time for "unimportant" conversations when you want to cram in four eps' worth of plot into one ep. Others have enumerated a lot of their connection already. Something I also think is important with them is that they generally just "get" each other. They know what's important to the other without much, if any, explanation. I feel like they have the same general vibe and seem to appreciate each other's sense of humor -- and manner of flirtation, which is important in a romantic relationship. They're both intelligent (the most recent ep with Hook excepted, sigh) and realistic about things, and have experienced similar losses and pains. They have a knack for making each other stronger. Emma opens up to him about things she doesn't tell anybody else -- that's a MAJOR thing. He's not judgmental about things with her, and I think that goes back to their similar viewpoints. That trust of being able to tell each other important things is vital. (Hint, Hook, hint.)

 

Could they debate the merits of Windows vs. Mac OS, or what the international response to Ebola should be, or what the ending of The Sopranos meant? No, not right now, but Hook is so adaptable, he's only going to keep learning even more stuff to talk about. I think the details of what they may talk about is less important than a compatibility and commonality in temperament, which I think they definitely have.

 

If nothing else, they both have interesting relationships with food! ;-) 

Edited October 21, 2014 by Souris

[KingOfHearts]

Snowing is just as problematic, I agree FabulousTater. I just sort of give them a pass because they're already a well-established True Love couple. But like CS, we don't see them actually bonding nicely very often. They were always saving each other or worrying about the next threat. CS could get caught in that mold if we don't see more positive learning conversations between the two of them. The date was a missed opportunity for that. It's one of those things where the show actually needs to show it instead of having the audience assume it occurred offscreen.

Disregarding Snowing's iconic nameplates, their romance is super canned and rushed. There, I said it!

Edited October 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

The date was a missed opportunity for that. It's one of those things where the show actually needs to show it instead of having the audience assume it occurred offscreen.

 

You know, I'd love more "kitchen sink" conversations, but I think in this case we didn't actually need to see the conversation. We saw them actually go out on a dinner date where presumably they talked about stuff - whatever that stuff may be. Could we have seen some of that talking? Sure, but I think having Emma say that he took her mind off of the Snow Queen is enough for me. I know that they actually spent time together in a situation where they weren't fighting monsters and that it went well. It was a first date. And guess what? It did not include a declaration of eternal love. They simply decided to go out again. For a show that broke up a canonical True Love couple because of Pixie Dust and a few days of making out/sex, that's remarkably normal. 

 

It's interesting too that Snowing wanted to go back to the Enchanted Forest in Season 2 because they wanted to have adventures again. Well, yeah, because that's what their entire relationship was based on. They didn't seem to have a normal, stable life at all. Regina crashed their wedding with her threats and Snow was off fighting Medusa on her honeymoon, so even once they'd taken back the kingdom, they were still adventuring or whatever. How does their relationship evolve now that their lives are babies and doing boring mayoral work? It's not something I really want to see, but based on how their relationship developed in the past, I could see the tedium of having a "normal" life affecting it in a negative way. That's too real and not fantasy enough for the show, but that's how reality would intrude on their fairy tale happy ending.

Edited October 21, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[retrograde]

CS could get caught in that mold if we don't see more positive learning conversations between the two of them.

I think a good time to have shown them having a "normal" conversation would have been when they were becoming friends (according to the actors/writers) in 3B. Almost all their conversations were Big and Important, and it was almost always Hook pushing Emma to stay in Storybrooke, tell Henry about Neal, etc. and her pushing back or closing off. Given Hook was supposed to be pretty much the only person she could talk to at that time, a few beats where they just chatted like actual friends -- just for a few moments -- wouldn't have gone astray. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by retrograde

[FabulousTater]

Disregarding Snowing's iconic nameplates, their romance is super canned and rushed. There, I said it!

Ha! Ya, KingOfHearts, IA.

 

In regards to "the writers need to show Emma and Hook having 'normal' moments to sell this":

IMO, "Normal" moments is not what fairy tale romances are about (especially on this show) and like it or not (and well executed or not), this is a fairy tale show. No matter how much we want may want to see these "normal" moments and conversations (and for the record, I would like to see them) it's never going to be what the writers focus on. Even with Snow and Charming, we never saw their relationship development involving "normal" moments. We never saw them share life stories over a glass of pinot and we didn't see Snow writing up her list of "Reasons why Charming is so dreamy and the guy for me!" because that's not what fairy tale romances are about (and IMO the absence of these "normal" moments doesn't detract from their fairy tale romance).

 

Their (Snow and Charming's) fairy tale romance, like most others, is about two people fighting for each other and together against demons, witches, and monsters. Defeating the odds, overcoming the obstacles put in their way and fighting to be together is how they showed how fiercely devoted/in love they are. So as far as I can see, using the same fairy tale romance measuring stick that the has been used to tell the story of this show's fairy tale icons, Snow White and Prince Charming, Emma and Hook's romantic story as told thus far fits the same romantic story mold. We may not see every single "normal" conversations/moments between them, but Emma and Hook seem just as suited for each other as Snow and Charming, and as far as fairy tale "fighting for each other" romance requirements go, Hook has certainly fought his little pirate tukhus off for Emma and I suspect we'll see the same degree of fight for him coming from Emma this season.

Edited October 21, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Serena]

Meaningful yes, but not exactly fun-date-conversation.  I really doubt Hook would have been into discussing his life on the high seas since half his mind was on The Hand.  And what would Emma talk about?  Her life in the foster system?  Her time in jail?  Not to mention navigating around the topic of Neal.  What's left?  Her life as a Savior?  But how does that get her mind off the Snow Queen?  Also doubting she was discussing her year off in New York.  Nor reminiscing about the good ol' times when he was a lackey for Cora.

It seems there's all her life post-jail and pre-Storybrooke left to discuss. I'm sure she has several entertaining client stories. Also, since her love life seems to have been lacking in those years, funny terrible first date stories. Hook, I'm sure, has had lots of adventures. Maybe not the Neverland ones, because they might bring back bad memories, but definitely the Captain Jones years. Maybe sanitized a bit, but I don't even think too much ;) Also, while *maybe* they avoided the topic of Neal (even though I don't necessarily believe it's needed), I don't think Hook would have any problems telling her about Milah. Also, get this: "Hey, did I ever tell you I used to have a ponytail?" - that alone would bring about an in-depth discussion, if it were me.

 

Also, they come from completely different worlds. I'm sure Hook has questions about the modern world Emma could answer, and if I were Emma I would be interested in the tech/clothes/customs of the place Hook is from. It seems they would have even more than "normal" couples to talk about because they don't even have that basic knowledge in common of "hey, we both come from Earth". Hook seems like someone who's read a lot (he said he's good at research) so he could even tell her a lot about the history and geography of the EF. Emma could tell him about some Disney movies!

Edited October 21, 2014 by Serena

[justcris]

Count me in with those who have no problem in imagining what Hook and Emma talk about. I think we were shown that they are compatible in lots of ways, and that they do "get" each other on a deep level.

I don't think I can single out what they like about each other, but I think that's true for a lot of people. Sometimes, you just connect. And sometimes you don't even have much in common besides that connection, but it's there and it's enough.

 

I watch Sleepy Hollow, and I think they are better at showing those small quiet day to day moments that allow you to see the connection between characters while also providing some amusing comic relief. The difference is, most Sleepy Hollow episodes start with some downtime, while OUAT is always moving forward and thus has no time for these kinds of moments. I think it makes for an effective way to provide some insight into the characters while also having them bond.