Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[tennisgurl]

After a long and tragic absence, I am BACK...to endlessly question why I have spent so much time and energy thinking about this show. 

 

Robin Hood, to me, is one of the bigger failures of this show. The guy did not ever act like Robin Hood should act, at least not this season.He is just some hot guy with a convenient cute child so Regina can have her happy ending, or "tragically" lose it. Nothing more.

[OnceUponAJen]

Not to mention that Robin Hood and Maid Marian are already a well-established true love couple......outside of this show. It's hard for me to imagine Robin Hood with anyone else, as long as Marian is alive. Even if she weren't, what on earth would Robin Hood, champion of the poor and downtrodden be doing romancing the Evil Queen?

[tennisgurl]

I almost wonder if they choose Robin Hood to be Regina's designated love interest so that he would already have an established character and back story, because the writers sure weren't interested in giving him anything, especially after he hooked up with Regina. He`s a shallow love interest, who just exists to give a main character someone to kiss/angst about, who happens to be named Robin Hood, instead of Jo McSexy Pants. A good love interest to a main character should have their own personality, story, hopes, dreams, and a life outside their relationship with the main character. Robin...had lunch with Will once? 

Edited January 30, 2015 by tennisgurl

[LizaD]

 

Rumbelle is always one of those areas where the fandom and the anti-fandom puts a lot more emphasis on the ship than the show ever does.

It's on the show. Emma and Rump's talk at the door turned into a conversation about Rumbelle. Why? Emma doesn't even know Belle. There's nothing to be mined from the fact that Rump was faced with the choice of giving up power or hurt his kid and Emma facing the same but doing the opposite? Nothing to add in about the fact that Rump making the wrong choice regarding his kid just happens to be Emma's baby daddy on top of it? Every single conversation Rump had with Hook had to bring up losing Belle.

 

This show is all about dumb ass magic, yet they couldn't bother having a single scene of Emma, Elsa, Ingrid and Rump touching upon their magic? It was staring them right in their faces, the contrast and similarities between the 4 and nada. Rump got nothing out of 4A. Everything went back to the status of Rumbelle.

 

 

Worse, it was repetitive. fifth break-up/struggle to get back to each other storyline

 

This just proves my point. That struggle is their story. 100% going to be OutlawQ's story too. And when that story ends, then there is no more story, and show, to be had. Example-Snowing.

 

 

This is where I'm utterly baffled at the decision to have them just snarking at each other during the Missing Year instead of involved in a relationship

They explained this. Either the writers/Lana or both actually said Woegina couldn't be happy or think about love without Henry. Of course now that she has Henry, he's no longer her happy ending so there you have it. They are so worried about making Woegina look good/perfect/victimized at all times that they have developed tunnel vision.

Edited January 31, 2015 by LizaD

[Shanna Marie]

Either the writers/Lana or both actually said Woegina couldn't be happy or think about love without Henry. Of course now that she has Henry, he's no longer her happy ending so there you have it. They are so worried about making Woegina look good/perfect/victimized at all times that they have developed tunnel vision.

And this would be why Regina Can't Have Nice Things. She gets so hung up on what she doesn't have that she doesn't live her life and doesn't see the opportunities that are in front of her, and so she can never be happy because she'll never have absolutely everything, all at once. She was supposedly so hung up on being separated from Henry that she couldn't have love in the missing year, but then she couldn't be bothered with Henry when she got him back because she'd lost her boyfriend. She couldn't fall in love without Henry there, but then she was too busy with her boyfriend to spend more than a minute or two with him before running off to go on a date with the new boyfriend, and then she actually told Henry to stay away when she was sad about losing her boyfriend. 

 

People can be separated from their children or even lose children and still have lives. Her acting this way doesn't make her seem more loving. It makes her look weak.

[daxx]

In my re watch of season 1 I am on Skin Deep. Realized his first and last gift were lies. He gifted her with Gaston in the form of a rose and a fake dagger in lieu of an engagement ring. Yeah, Rumbelle is soooo romantic.

[Curio]

From the Speculation thread:

I don't think Emma's reaction would be that extreme if Hook tells her he loves her (which I don't see happening to be honest). She knows exactly how he feels about her. It's not like it will be this huge revelation or anything like that. He kissed her in NYC Serenade and told her he hoped she felt as he did or that maybe there's another man she loved in the life she lost, and that's just one show...she has to know that something like this might be coming and she is in an actual relationship with the guy, I think from experience and being in a relationship, those words will be expected at some point. Honestly though, I think they both know how the other one feels and that's what it is. Love also comes through in actions and as they say, actions do speak louder than words.

We're discussing whether or not it would be in character for Emma to be momentarily apprehensive or scared to say "I love you" back to Hook if he ever says those words in 4B. While I personally think Emma is in love with Hook at this point already, I could still imagine her having trouble vocalizing the words to Hook in a non-life threatening situation, and especially if he said them in a casual situation where she's not expecting it. Emma tends to only blurt those words out when someone's life is on the line, or probably only to Henry in a normal situation. But I could see Emma having a momentary brain spasm if Hook said those words and she wasn't mentally prepared for it.

 

I think it's obvious through their actions that they both know they care about each other deeply, so that's not the issue. But based on what we've been shown on screen, unfortunately, I have to admit that Emma's character also tends to take Hook's actions for granted. Yes, she knows Hook gave his ship up for her and that it was a huge freaking deal. But the very next day, she tells him to be patient and decides to give Regina a doorway pep talk about happy endings instead. Hook's heart is taken and he nearly dies in front of her, and Emma goes off and has shots with Regina. This isn't meant to bash Emma's character - I know these are things the writers screwed up - but it's also what was presented to me on TV, so it's all I can use to analyze in terms of what's considered canon.

 

It's also in character for Emma to associate certain words to have more meaning than others, so she's afraid to say those words out loud. She called Henry "kid" for the longest time, and it took her forever to call Snow and David "mom" and "dad." To Emma, saying "I love you" in a setting where no one is at risk of dying and she mentally has to think about what those words actually mean to her right now might freak her out. Admitting those words officially puts her relationship with Hook into super serious instead of just going with the flow and not putting labels on whatever they have - which is the point they're at right now.

 

So for me, I think Emma could potentially struggle with verbally saying those words out loud the first time. Yes, we know she cares for Hook through her actions and she knows he thinks the world of her, but simply saying those words out loud could change a lot of things in her mind. By admitting those words, Emma would have to officially start thinking about Hook as someone she could spend the rest of her life with. Someone she could see as a father figure for Henry. She also knows the last time she said those words to someone she was romantically involved with - Walsh and Neal - that ended terribly. The fact that Hook and Emma haven't even called each other "boyfriend" or "girlfriend" or put a label on whatever they're doing as "dating" says a lot about those two and how much spoken words can have a lot of meaning behind them. For those two, actions will always be easier than words, but both are necessary in a healthy relationship.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Curio, just for the record, I agree with everything you've said.  But playing devil's advocate for a second...

 

She told Walsh she loved him in NYC Serenade, I mean it was more of a "you know I love you but I'm not doing this" type of thing.  

 

I find it really hard to argue anything regarding 411 because it was such a nightmare of a mess and yes, a lot of stuff was just unresolved.  And yes, Emma does tend to take Hook and Hook's actions for granted which for me is hard to reconcile with all the losses that she has had.  Two out of three died in her arms, Hook nearly kicked the bucket when Zelena had him nearly drowned and then there was the whole heart business.  But I'm not sure that will be the case in 4B and maybe I'm coming at this from this perspective as someone who is somewhat spoiled.

 

Emma has actually had some emotional growth, especially since 403 and I would not even be surprised if she tells him she loves him before he tells her.  

[Curio]

Emma has actually had some emotional growth, especially since 403 and I would not even be surprised if she tells him she loves him before he tells her.

 

This would actually be a very refreshing twist. I'd be on board for that.

[YaddaYadda]

Regarding the whole relationship between Hook and Emma and this is not to bring up the whole Neal issue again because that's not my intent, but as far as I'm concerned, Emma's choice regarding wanting to give it a go with Hook was made before the time Pan's curse was barreling down on them.  Her choice in terms of a relationship was made before she knew what the consequences of Pan's curse and Regina trying to fix it would be.  

 

Yeah, there was a major set back in the back half of the season which at times did not make any kind of sense, but how many weeks has it been since Emma has left New York?  

 

This is what sucks with this show at times is that we don't always have a sense of what the timeline was.  How many days did it take them to defeat Zelena? Two weeks?  Three weeks?  The first episode season 4 picks up the day after the time travel adventure.  For all intents and purposes, it's probably been between 6 to 8 weeks since Emma went back to Storybrooke with Hook, since he found her.

 

Considering all of this, Emma going from 0 to about 75 right now is actually not a bad thing given all the emotional issues she has.

 

And it's not like he's a piece of cake himself if and once they decide to delve into his issues. 

[Dani-Ellie]

Considering all of this, Emma going from 0 to about 75 right now is actually not a bad thing given all the emotional issues she has.

 

This.

 

This is where the show's tight timeline is so. very. hard because it's been over a year for us since Hook found Emma in New York but for the characters it's been like a month and a half. This is why I wasn't as annoyed with Emma for her "Be patient" as some people were because holy freakin crap, two weeks prior she was dating another guy long enough that he proposed marriage. Regardless of the fact that he was Zelena's plant, that's a big freaking deal for Emma. And regardless of the fact that he was Zelena's plant, she spent the eight months they were together not knowing that, so her heartbreak was real. So yeah, asking for patience? That made sense to me because 1) Emma's entire world had been turned upside down, and 2) she'd just had yet another relationship go south on her.

 

When taken all in total, the kind of progress we've seen Emma make over the past half season, which takes place over, at most, a couple of weeks are steps I could never have imagined the guarded woman who first arrived in Storybrooke making.

[YaddaYadda]

 When taken all in total, the kind of progress we've seen Emma make over the past half season, which takes place over, at most, a couple of weeks are steps I could never have imagined the guarded woman who first arrived in Storybrooke making.

 

Honestly, I just think it speaks to the feelings she has for him.

[jhlipton]

Oh I think Outlaw Queen got worse when Robin and Will had that conversation in Granny's Diner where they talked about how Marian had made Robin into the man he was.

 

That was so stupid and disgusting.  Even if I had been an OutlawQueen fan before, that would have turned me right off.  Ignoring all the other crap, here's a guy saying that this woman turned him from a loser to a hero, and her reward is.. to be dumped on?  Blech.

[Shanna Marie]

The Idiots in Charge are so proud of what they think of as a wonderful friendship between Snow and Regina. There are so many things wrong with that, but the sermon in church today made me realize another one.

 

Snow has apparently forgiven Regina for all the things she did to her, and that makes sense, as she's that kind of person, and it's even healthy to let it go and move on instead of making her life all about having been Regina's victim. It's less healthy that she seems to actually blame herself, and I'm not sure it's smart to be friends with and hang around with someone who devoted her life to destroying her who hasn't yet said anything about being done with that.

 

But even if you go with the bizarre fiction that Snow really did wrong Regina and that Regina shouldn't have to apologize, has Regina forgiven Snow? Has she managed to let it all go and move on without making her life about having been a victim? The best we've had was the grudging admission that Snow killing Cora was "complicated." Snow has outright said she forgives Regina (multiple times). But how can there be any foundation for a friendship if Regina has neither admitted to doing wrong nor forgiven?

[YaddaYadda]

Snow has mommy issues.  Her mother died when she was a kid and she latched onto Regina as her new mother.  Regina saved her life, she was her father's new wife and she loved her, so yeah, she has forgiven her.  Even when she was on the run, she was hoping that Regina would change and when she had the opportunity to end her, she spared her instead.

 

I'm not saying that people cannot change because they can but how everything stemmed from a 10 year old who told a secret because well, she was a child, all kinds of fucked up.  If anything, Regina is the one who should be seeking Snow out and wanting to mend the "relationship", not the other way around.

 

But what do I know.

[Mari]

 But how can there be any foundation for a friendship if Regina has neither admitted to doing wrong nor forgiven?

There can't be.

 

From what I've seen on-screen, Regina is still blaming Snow for the deaths of both Daniel and Cora, as well as not dying when Regina wanted her to do so.  However, considering that the Regina on-screen cares about herself, herself, herself, herself, and then a tiny bit for Robin and Henry?  That makes sense.  No one's pain or trauma is as serious as hers. Regina seems to see their friendship as her just due, after they've groveled enough she can overlook their sins against her.

 

However, from what bits of interview I've read from A&E, as well as occasionally Parilla, I've wondered a couple of things.

 

a)  What has the team written  or filmed that hasn't ended up on-screen, that is still head-canon for them? 

b)  Do they watch the product again after they've finished producing it?

 

Because some of their writing choices imply there's a whole lot going on in their heads that they think we know  that simply has not made it on-screen. 

[Camera One]

But even if you go with the bizarre fiction that Snow really did wrong Regina and that Regina shouldn't have to apologize, has Regina forgiven Snow? Has she managed to let it all go and move on without making her life about having been a victim? The best we've had was the grudging admission that Snow killing Cora was "complicated."

 

Everything the writers have written (which is pretty much encapsulated by horrible scene they tacked onto "Smash the Mirror") reinforces the message that Regina and Snow have been EQUALLY at fault, and NEITHER are completely good or bad, so they are at a draw.  That was the whole purpose of having Snow kill Cora, so they would be supposedly "even".  

 

So I don't know if we will ever get an outright apology from Regina, and speaking of which, there are several apologies that technically should be pending, if this is supposed to be a "friendship".  Firstly, there should be an apology for Regina trying to kill Snow, not just once, but multiple times, and practically succeeding once with the changed timeline.  Then, there's the apology for trying to kill Snow's husband.  Then, there's the apology for trying to kill Snow's daughter.  Then, there's the apology for actually killing Snow's father. Then, there's acknowledgement that Regina's own mother actually killed Snow's mother in cold blood, and I'm sorry, but "it's complicated" just doesn't cut it.  They can't even have Regina say that her mother was an evil @#$#$*( who deserved what she got.  

 

And the worst thing is, they have the characters themselves believing that Regina and Snow are equally to blame.  Not only Snow, but even Charming and Emma, who said not a thing when Regina was snarking about Snow being a murderer in "Bleeding Through".  You would think people would be defensive of their own family members, but nope.

 

The only way to make it even slightly palatable while watching is to believe what YaddaYadda explained.  Snow is severely psychologically messed up on so many levels because of what happened in her childhood, and that's why she acts like the way she does.  She has learned that the only way to keep Regina from flying off the handle is to agree with everything she says, or she and her family would be in mortal danger.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I think there is a whole missing episode where Snow, Charming, Regina, and Emma had a knock down drag out therapy session with Dr. Hopper.

 

Like this you mean?

 

Close enough, I'd say.

Edited February 9, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

You know, I wouldn't actually mind the idea of Emma and/or Snow eventually developing a friendship of sorts with Regina if it had been more of a gradual process instead of a switch being flipped and if it had been a lot more even. As it is, it was so sudden and drastic from them being foes to Emma and Snow practically groveling to Regina. Especially Snow. It was like they went straight from Regina framing her for murder to Snow desperately wanting Regina to like her.

 

And in spite of Regina whining about them never having her back, Team Charming has just about always had her back. After the curse broke, they wouldn't let the town lynch her, then Snow and Emma got stuck in the Enchanted Forest because they were saving her from the wraith. Emma invited her to the potluck, and one of them (which? I can't recall) was the one holdout in not being entirely sure that Regina killed Archie. Snow went through the Regina's Tears treatment and felt her torture so they could rescue her from Greg and Tamara, and then there was the godawful diner speech that led to them all being willing to die so that Regina didn't have to die to stop her own self-destruct mechanism from going off. They both tried to offer moral support during the Zelena crisis and during the Robin stuff. Meanwhile, the only nice thing I can think of that Regina has done for Snow that wasn't also in some way to save Regina herself or save Henry was doing the heart splitting stuff. That was the one moment when I felt like Regina might actually care about Snow. The one thing Regina has done for Emma was convince Snow and David that it was stupid for Emma to give up her powers (though she bailed on that to go see her boyfriend).

 

Meanwhile, Snow's "wrongs" against Regina amount to being manipulated into telling a secret when she was ten and killing Cora (which was actually self defense and defense of others, not to mention the fact that Regina had tried to have Cora killed, herself), and Emma cut down the apple tree. Everything else Emma did to "wrong" Regina was self-defense, defense of others, or not actually about Regina at all. Snow has apologized all over herself and forgiven Regina. Regina has neither apologized nor forgiven.

 

So we've got massive wrongs with no apology, no forgiveness, and almost no good acts on one side and a lot of good acts, forgiveness, and smaller wrongs that were apologized for on the other side. This is not a friendship. It's not heartwarming and it's not fun to watch. It's way too "mean girls," with the bitchy queen bee able to get away with doing and saying anything she wants because her second-tier suck-ups will take anything she dishes out just so they can be friends with her.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think Snow needs to be defended from her response to what happened with the light pole. It was a believable reaction.

 

I do think it's upsetting to see your husband almost get critically injured, but her reactions started earlier. Her face and tone even when the baby bottle boiled showed contempt. To me, Snow came off as angry that her Savior tool was no longer doing what she wanted it to. In 4x09 she said, "We don't fear your magic, Emma. It's what's going to allow you to take on the Snow Queen and win." This was when they were about to go in cages because the Shattered Sight spell was about to hit.

 

See, she doesn't have any deep conversations with Emma. She'll only speak her mind about them as mother and daughter if they're in a dire situation. She apologized on the phone, but she didn't explain why she was sorry or that she accepted who Emma is. So most of the time, we only get awkward looks and shallow words without any real explanation. Not just with Snow, either. We still don't know why Henry disapproves of Hook, for example.

 

So much of the drama and mortal danger could be avoided if there was more one-on-one conversations. I know that's not very "exciting", but you can also foster in some even juicier material with private chats. What serious, intimate talking gives is character development. It makes the storyline richer and the situations more heart-pounding because it makes you care about the characters. We need reminders, in all the craziness, that they are people too.

Edited February 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

We still don't know why Henry disapproves of Hook, for example.

That still strikes me as such a weird thing. It seemed like such a throwaway line out of the blue because it doesn't match anything else that's happened. Wasn't it the very next episode when Hook spent the whole day taking Henry sailing? If Henry disapproved of Hook, why would he have gone along with that? You'd think he'd have told Emma that she might want to date Hook, but that didn't mean he had to hang out with him. Why did they even bother with adding that line when it apparently meant nothing? If Henry wasn't okay with Emma dating Hook, why would that not have been any kind of issue at all? It doesn't seem to have added any tension or conflict to Henry's relationship with Emma or to Emma's relationship with Hook. It wasn't a particularly funny or clever line that added anything to the "Henry encourages Emma to ask Hook out" scene. Did Henry's trap for Hook during the Slapstick Spell indicate Henry's real feelings for Hook, or was that just paranoia induced by the spell? Not that the scene ended up meaning anything.

 

I guess they may have started something but then got distracted by getting Henry involved in Regina's love life. Though it does seem weird that Henry has no problem with Regina dating a married man or breaking up the Robin Hood/Maid Marian marriage (or even Marian dying) but isn't okay with Emma dating Hook (who's helped save Henry's life a couple of times).

[YaddaYadda]

"We don't fear your magic, Emma. It's what's going to allow you to take on the Snow Queen and win." This was when they were about to go in cages because the Shattered Sight spell was about to hit.

 

That was reminiscent of the whole our daughter Emma who is probably happy somewhere in the world has light magic and we should just go and get her even though I did not really think about her for a while.  What would have been appropriate for that situation especially since no one had a clue what the outcome was going to be would have been "We love you, Emma, no matter what."

 

We still don't know why Henry disapproves of Hook, for example.

And they were standing next to each other the day after the spell of Shattered Sight like nothing had happened.  So I'm assuming Henry didn't tell his mother (Emma) that Hook came to get him during that little crisis.  If he had, would Emma have gone directly to Hook to question him?  Would she have realized that no, he wasn't at the docks...he told her via heart control that he hurt himself during the curse and was heading to get himself checked out, Hook who almost drowned a few weeks before that and set foot in the hospital only because a baby was being born.

 

This fucking show...

[KAOS Agent]

 

"We don't fear your magic, Emma. It's what's going to allow you to take on the Snow Queen and win."

 

I hated this line so much because it reflects exactly what Ingrid told Emma. Her parents only care about her magic when it's useful to them. Ingrid asking Emma how many times has she felt more like the Saviour than their daughter struck a chord with Emma and here they are once again telling her she's not scary now because her magic will save them. A much better thing to have said to Emma was that they don't fear her magic because they love her and her magic is a part of what makes her special. Note that Hook has specifically stated that magic is a part of Emma and that he's a fan of every part of her. He has every reason to be wary of magic, even says that he avoids it when he can, but he has never been anything other than encouraging to Emma about it. 

 

One of the reasons I have such a hard time with the relationships on this show and being able to handwave things is because they often show characters reacting differently to something and I see one way being absolutely correct and supportive while another's reaction is problematic but never addressed and often considered just fine. If everyone responds in a similarly problematic way, I could maybe attribute it to the writers actually thinking it was an okay thing. However, when they have two different responses and one is clearly more acceptable than the other, I can't just pretend that the writers don't actually know better.* With regards to Emma/Snow, they wrote Ingrid bringing up every single one of the issues that have been building since the curse broke and it very obviously hit Emma where it hurt. So not only do the showrunners know that these issues persist, but they also have Emma reacting strongly to them, so we know that everything isn't all fine and wonderful in that relationship. If it was all good and Emma wasn't bothered by these things, she wouldn't react like she did. Given the serious nature of these issues and how badly Emma has been broken by feelings of being unlovable and self hatred, it really sets me off that they brush them off with a quick hug and an apology. Sorry doesn't cut it. Only hard work and demonstrations that Emma matters beyond her ability to save them can help build the relationship. At this point, it seems to me like Emma feels like her parents only want her for what she can do for them and not for herself. She's just the same meal ticket she was throughout her childhood only this time it's magic and not money that she supplies to her family.

 

* This goes for the redemption of villains too. The way they had Ingrid react and achieve her redemption shows that they do know how redemption works. I believe the Red Queen's story on the Wonderland spin-off also showed a decent understanding of this. It is not acting like a bitch to all of your victims, expecting them to save you a seat at the family dinner and getting a happy ending all while actively enslaving a man and plotting someone's death. 

[Camera One]

Which makes you wonder why the writers wrote the line that way.  Surely, they have already expressed that her parents were showing they had complete trust in her without that line. Did they simply want to spell out that Snow no longer feared her magic, because they freak'in never dealt with that concern, neither on Snow's end figuring how not to be afraid, or on Emma's hand dealing with her loved ones fearing her?  

 

The pessimistic part of me wonders if it was partly to remind people that the Snow Queen was behind what was happening.  Since we didn't see her the entire episode?   Which means we forgot who the villain was.  Since we're stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid.

[RadioGirl27]

 

We still don't know why Henry disapproves of Hook, for example.

Neither do the writers. I'm sure that line was there so later, if they need it, they can use Henry as a way to add more unnecessary angst between Hook and Emma. That way they can say that Henry was always against Hook, even if he seems to like him well enough in the rest of episodes.

[YaddaYadda]

Her parents only care about her magic when it's useful to them. Ingrid asking Emma how many times has she felt more like the Saviour than their daughter struck a chord with Emma and here they are once again telling her she's not scary now because her magic will save them. A much better thing to have said to Emma was that they don't fear her magic because they love her and her magic is a part of what makes her special.

 

But Emma has wonderful parents according to Elsa to which Emma replied "I know".  So case closed?

 

I know it's too much to hope for, but at this point, I'm really hoping for a fall out between Emma and Snow.  

 

Note that Hook has specifically stated that magic is a part of Emma and that he's a fan of every part of her. He has every reason to be wary of magic, even says that he avoids it when he can, but he has never been anything other than encouraging to Emma about it.

He has been her personal cheering section.  He knows that Neal left her jail which is still something we don't know whether her parents know or not.

 

But more than that, he's always seen everything that she is.

 

I think the most frustrating thing with the whole Emma/Snow is that along the line, Snow forgot everything Emma told her when she was still cursed.  Snow was the only friend Emma had and she considered her family (the only family she had).

 

With regards to Emma/Snow, they wrote Ingrid bringing up every single one of the issues that have been building since the curse broke and it very obviously hit Emma where it hurt. So not only do the showrunners know that these issues persist, but they also have Emma reacting strongly to them, so we know that everything isn't all fine and wonderful in that relationship.

This is why I don't think they're done with this.  You can't keep piling on and piling on, putting in writing all these things we have been talking about and then handwave it like nothing happened.  

I'm hoping they start addressing these things with whatever is supposed to happen with Emma in the next half

[Dani-Ellie]

I think the most frustrating thing with the whole Emma/Snow is that along the line, Snow forgot everything Emma told her when she was still cursed.  Snow was the only friend Emma had and she considered her family (the only family she had).

 

This frustrates me to no end and is why I have far less patience with Snow. Because if she would just reach back into her Mary Margaret memory banks and think about what she did then that made Emma comfortable enough to open up to her, she would have far less trouble now.

 

In Neverland when Snow was upset that she didn't know how to comfort Emma? I appreciated the struggle, in the sense that of course this shouldn't be easy, but at the same time, I was like, "Yes, Snow, you do. You have as Mary Margaret." Snow pushing Neal on Emma? Even if you take into consideration that Snow doesn't know the whole history there, Emma told Mary Margaret that Henry's father was not hero material when she was explaining why she lied to Henry in "True North." Mary Margaret also knew that Emma had Henry in jail. So wouldn't that raise some red flags somewhere in a mother's mind?

 

It just feels like what I loved so much about their relationship in season one was all for naught, since Snow is not using the insight she gained into Emma's personality and history during her time as Mary Margaret as a way to help her connect with her as mother as opposed to friend, and in fact, she's ignoring a lot of it. I really thought that the reason Mary Margaret seemed to be able to connect with Emma relatively easily was because on some unconscious level that even the darkest magic couldn't touch, she recognized Emma as her daughter. 2B through now has proven that instinct of mine completely and totally wrong since Snow seems to have such a tough time connecting with Emma at all.

[Faemonic]

Hook has specifically stated that magic is a part of Emma and that he's a fan of every part of her. He has every reason to be wary of magic, even says that he avoids it when he can, but he has never been anything other than encouraging to Emma about it. 

Reason? On this show? Mwahahaa.

 

Seriously, though, back in Neverland, Snow was all, "Emma has it in her, she should learn how to use it" even after seeing what magic had done to Regina, what Regina had done with magic, Cora's philosophy about power, and while I can't capture any specific moments there was that whole "magic comes with a price and also doubles as a drug addiction metaphor" in the second season.

 

I don't doubt that Hook's line about being a fan of every part of Emma was sincere, and he had witnessed it saving lives (at Lake Nostros, and at Dark Hollow where even Nealfire seemed to be more like, "Wait, you saved both our lives with magic Emma?? Could you un-save mine because that stuff is Dark and I don't want to be associated with that again." Which, actually, I don't see so much as a slam against Emma as Daddy Issues, although the latter really fed the former.)

 

But Hook's line at that time was totally a cover-up for how he thought that Emma was going to get hatted.

 

Hook at Zelena's time portal spell, though: "I am not going anywhere near that volcanic column of magic that defies even the laws of magic, that is cast by the most powerful dark witch with a lifetime of experience... unless you, Swan, have your haphazard magic back that you've been studying to control for, like, a month. Or unless you're just uncharacteristically curious this episode."

Edited February 15, 2015 by Faemonic

[Mari]

I really thought that the reason Mary Margaret seemed to be able to connect with Emma relatively easily was because on some unconscious level that even the darkest magic couldn't touch, she recognized Emma as her daughter. 2B through now has proven that instinct of mine completely and totally wrong since Snow seems to have such a tough time connecting with Emma at all.

 

I actually think that is what the writers were going for--they just didn't see a reason to focus on that relationship after they shifted more of the show to Regina.  I think if they were asked about it, they would say something like "Absolutely that is why they connected.  What would make you think otherwise?"  I do not think they recognized the problems they built into the relationship until the fans started saying something.

 

That being said, going on what has been written . . . I've wondered if Mary Margaret doesn't think of those experiences as "real".  They were Emma's version of the curse experiences, like Mary Margaret's night with Whale, David's marriage to Katherine, or Ruby's bad relationship with Granny.

 

Plus, if Mary Margaret thought of those experiences as "real", then she would have to blame Regina--because how could she not?

 

Since Regina's approval is the second most important thing to Mary Margaret (after David, and depending on how the rest of the season goes, possibly Nealflake.), Mary Margaret simply does not allow herself to acknowledge them.

[Camera One]

This is why I don't think they're done with this.  You can't keep piling on and piling on, putting in writing all these things we have been talking about and then handwave it like nothing happened.

 

If the writers consider as big a deal as all that, they wouldn't have written that phone call "Sorry!" "Oh no probs, I understand!".

 

Why would they start addressing it later, if they had the perfect opportunity to address it and even set up a scenario where they would address it in 4A, but they didn't?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Why would they start addressing it later, if they had the perfect opportunity to address it and even set up a scenario where they would address it in 4A, but they didn't?

I believe they only brought it up simply because it as luck would have it, it was convenient to the plot. The writers probably thought along the lines of, "Alright, we need something to make Emma really angry so her magic can go haywire and the Snow Queen can look super manipulative. No ideas? Well it looks like we'll have to pull a random note from the Hat Box of Unfinished Plots."

[FurryFury]

I know it's too much to hope for, but at this point, I'm really hoping for a fall out between Emma and Snow.

 

Er...No, thanks. It will probably be because of something as stupid as "black spot" or Emma choosing Regina over Snow or something. At it will make our eyes and ears bleed.

[Dani-Ellie]

I would love a blowout where Emma just unloads. I have this headcanon where Emma just buries all these slights -- big and small, unintentional or not -- but the thing with burying like that is it all festers. So every single new slight just adds to the festering pile and eventually, it's going to need to be released.

 

However, I also believe we put much more thought into character motivation than the writers do so I've given up hope that we'll ever see that blowout. To them, everything's peachy keen and there are no more unresolved issues because a hug and a "please don't change" and a "we don't fear your magic, Emma" was all that was needed to heal those wounds. (Even though Snow's second line about how Emma's magic was what was going to allow her to fight the Snow Queen and win completely and totally played into every single thing Ingrid was digging into her about ... "how many times have you felt more like a savior than their daughter?")

 

That's not how people work, though. Issues as deep and far-reaching as Emma's don't go away with a hug. Emma's other issues were not addressed at all, so in my mind, they're still in there, festering.

[Shanna Marie]

You can't keep piling on and piling on, putting in writing all these things we have been talking about and then handwave it like nothing happened.

Unless you write for this show, where it's in the job description.

 

I'm starting to think that these guys have brilliant subconsciouses that come up with all kinds of amazing, deep stuff that seeps in around the cracks of the stuff they write on purpose, and they're too dense to realize what they've set up. I really don't think they're aware that they've piled on all these things until a fan or an interviewer says something, and that's when the handwaving starts because they didn't mean to give that impression. They don't seem to look back at the finished product and notice the little things that would spark most writers' imaginations. So I really don't think they mean to be showing that Snow only really cares about Emma as a useful tool and that Emma resents it. There's only a relationship issue when the plot demands it. The line about Henry not being okay with Emma dating Hook probably wasn't meant to mean anything but was just thrown in because they needed some "funny" dialogue as an intro to the scene. I haven't watched that one for a while and it's gone from OnDemand, but didn't that scene start out where we didn't know what Emma was steeling herself to do, so the Henry line was actually out of context, and we were maybe supposed to be wondering what Emma was going to do, then it was meant to be a "funny" "surprise" when it was just that Emma was asking Hook out on a date? That would explain it -- the line was meant to be a misdirection and they didn't even think about what that line said about Henry's relationships with Emma and with Hook.

[KingOfHearts]

Replying in Writers thread.

[SilverShadow]

 

I think I'm going to start promoting Tentacle Queen. Then I can have online hissy fits and claim that people are both homophobic and racist if they don't support my crack ship. And we could see what the really crazy Swan Queeners do -- is it really Emma that they want for Regina, or is it just any relationship that's going to give her lots of screen time? Would giving Regina a storyline with Ursula make them forget about Emma or make them explode with rage? Let's find out! I mean, they have a less toxic past than Regina and Emma do, even with that little escapade of Regina impersonating Ursula and Ursula warning her about it. I'm sure that really meant that Regina wants Ursula so badly that she actually wanted to be her. The subtext is all over the place!

 

I know Shanna Marie was being facetious, but I would have no issue with them doing Tentacle Queen on the show, if they did in a way that made sense. My problems with Swan Queen are three-fold. 1) Regina is Emma's step-grandmother. 2) Regina is directly responsible for the circumstances that caused Emma to have such a sucky childhood. 3) Regina has shown little to any remorse for the evil acts she's committed, despite insisting she's changed,  and routinely treats Emma like dirt. None of those apply to Ursula.

 

They'd be on a similar moral wave-length, or at the very least, Ursula wouldn't take verbal abuse lying down. If Regina ruined something for Ursula, Ursula would pay her back in kind. There's not the same power imbalance or the feeling of a relatively good person being paired with someone who wants all the rewards of being a "hero" without having to behave heroically and who takes out their anger on their partner in particular.

 

Viva la Tentacle Queen!

[Souris]

And Regina did impersonate Ursula. That means she really loves her! And Ursula threatened Regina over it. That means she loves her too!

Edited February 17, 2015 by Souris

[Dianthus]

Dayum, that's some quality snark. I love it! Count me in.

[Kktjones]

For some reason, I've been thinking about the romantic relationships on this show and find myself a little confused with how they are being handled. In Season 1, we had the epic love story between Snow and Charming. Their love was so strong, they were even drawn to each other in the cursed world. They did everything they could to find each other, to be together, to save each other, etc. This was one of the things many viewers loved about the show that first season. Yet since then, the show seems very reluctant to go there with any of the current love stories. With Rumbelle, they have been apart more than they've been together, Outlaw Queen was pretty much fast tracked to soul mates and then separated, and with Captain Swan they refuse to give them any of the big, emotional payoffs we got with Snowing. Given this is a fantasy show about hope and true love kisses, etc. I'm just surprised they they haven't wanted to take advantage of what could be an epic love story and really draw people in. Then again, seeing how they write for Snowing now, I guess the follow up to the epic true love story would probably be pretty lame. Anyway, just my random musings on a Monday morning...

[YaddaYadda]

But Snowing is the couple that has been together the longest so it's normal that they would be the first ones to have gotten that payoff.

 

I don't think OQ will be reunited at the end of the season.  I could be completely wrong, but I'd think they'd wanna give Regina her happy ending at the end of the series, especially since we already know who it is that she is supposed to be with.  Plus the show loves poor, crying, angsty Regina.  Like I said, I could be completely wrong.  

 

About Captain Swan, we got all their milestones so far and they said they were going slowly with the couple.  I personally don't see a problem with that.

[Dani-Ellie]

About Captain Swan, we got all their milestones so far and they said they were going slowly with the couple.  I personally don't see a problem with that.

 

I'm personally loving the slow burn with Captain Swan, and I think the slow burn makes sense for both of them as characters. Hook held onto his anger over Milah's death for what, at least a couple of centuries? And Emma has trust and abandonment issues galore. The two of them just throwing caution to the wind and leaping into something together wouldn't strike me as authentic to their past experiences. This show has a lot of issues with characters and authentic reactions but this is one instance where I feel like they're doing things right (emotional payoff or lack thereof notwithstanding).

[Kktjones]

I guess emotional payoff what I meant in terms of CaptainSwan. I also enjoy the slow burn and am not looking for true love kisses or anything like that between them anytime soon. However, I would like to see more emotional growth between the two of them. Let Hook be involved in the story of Emma embracing her magic. Let him share his experiences of self-doubt, etc. I love both Emma and Hook (and the way Jen and Colin portray them), but I still get a very one-sided feeling about the relationship. I'm just not sure why they are so reluctant to let CS actually participate in each other's growth as people. I think the audience response would be so positive and it would get even more people excited about their journey. Anyway, back to lurking :).

[Curio]

Given this is a fantasy show about hope and true love kisses, etc. I'm just surprised they they haven't wanted to take advantage of what could be an epic love story and really draw people in.

 

Sadly, I think they do believe they're giving us these big, epic romances, but it's just not translating on screen. The writers are trying to have their cake and eat it too by showing us quick glimpses of romantic scenes here and there, but then they never properly follow up on them in an attempt to make the drama last longer. They show Belle and Rumple dancing in the ballroom, but then never pair them up together the rest of the season. They have Captain Swan make out in the middle of the street and Emma confesses she can't lose him, but they never pay that off to keep the audience "wanting more." The writers are in a difficult position where they don't know how long the series is going to last, so they don't want to throw in any epic romances that will be resolved too quickly. This is why Rumple and Belle break up and get back together ad nauseam and Captain Swan never actually get the emotional payoff they deserve. The way they've handled Outlaw Queen seems to go entirely against this with how fast they rushed through that "relationship," but it does seem like they're going to drag their relationship kicking and screaming to the end of the series.

 

Snow and Charming's relationship in the first season played out so well because the writers never intended to play "Ross and Rachel" with them. They knew that in 22 episodes, all the tension and drama that had been built up in Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest flashbacks would culminate in a Big Damn Kiss in the finale. It felt epic and complete. But they can't do that with the other big three couples because they suck at the post-bliss part of a relationship. Snow and Charming didn't necessarily have to be boring after they officially got together, but the writers simply don't know how to write drama for couples who are together, so instead, they get sent to the background.

 

I'm normally not a TV viewer who roots for couples to get together romantically, but Once is my one exception because the very first scene of the series promised an epic fairytale romance with True Love's Kiss being a real thing. It's Disney for crying out loud, so I expect to see some big damn romances. But the show has since moved their focus away from romance over to villain sob stories, and the show's vibe has suffered a lot from it.

[YaddaYadda]

The whole emotional payoff is pretty valid I think.  This is the thing that we did not get in 4A, The conversation was taken away, the whole heart thing felt like a debacle.  But these days, I'm trying to see the glass as being half-full as opposed to half-empty so I've been telling myself that season 4 contains 22 episodes and that while Hook's heart was really a Rumple plot point that the payoff for Captain Swan will likely come towards the end of this season.  No, I'm not expecting a TLK and I find them completely played out to be honest so I don't really care about that personally.  I just don't think that whatever build-up from the first half of the season will be thrown out just like that.  

 

Considering the fact that it took them 2 seasons to revisit the Hook/Belle confrontation over how Rumple has a true heart vs Hook's rotten heart and how Rumple will never choose Belle over his powers, it makes absolute sense that the heart plot point had absolutely nothing to do with Hook and Emma and everything to do with Rumple and Belle.  

 

God, there are so many things wrong with this show, but those asshole writers set up plots like years in advance.  Did anyone think that Rumple was going to go the direction he went?  It's one thing to lie about the dagger and a whole other thing to set out up Emma to use the hat on herself and then crush her boyfriend's heart.  Him having a problem with Hook is fine.  Him having a problem with the fairies is fine because Blue fucked him over solidly with the whole magic bean thing.  Him going after Emma?  No, not cool at all.  But the set up was already there from season 3.

 

I'm not sure that CS will be one-sided for long.  I think the tables will flip eventually (I don't even know if this is a saying in English).

 

Anyway, back to lurking

Why?  Everyone's opinions are valid.  It's like a support group here.  My name is Yadda and I'm addicted to this stupid show that I don't always understand, please hold my hand and get me through it.    

[Amerilla]

For some reason, I've been thinking about the romantic relationships on this show and find myself a little confused with how they are being handled. In Season 1, we had the epic love story between Snow and Charming.

 

My first thought is to credit it to the overall higher quality of writing in S1. But it's really more about function than anything else.

 

S1 really needed a strong love story. Snow and Charming's EF romance was a major part of why Regina cursed them and of how Emma came to be the Savior. Mary Margaret and David being drawn to each other in Storybrooke signaled that their non-cursed personalities were still in there, and that Emma , as the product of this special love, was going to be the one to free them. How well that story played out had as much to do with the serendipity of Ginny and Josh falling for each other as it was happening on-screen. Moving on into S2, they were no longer needed to fill that role within the story, and they were slowly phased out as a major part of the story.  

 

The last three seasons really haven't needed a strong romance to center the action, so it's been a lot more haphazard and uneven.

 

With Rumbelle - Rumpel didn't need a "romance," but he did need someone neutral to talk to (so he didn't have to be constantly talking to himself) and someone he could fear losing. Belle's purpose as a character in early S2 was as much about intergrating Hook and his backstory into the mix as it was about her and Rumpel. In late S2, it was more about distracting Rumpel away from Neal while they set up the plot for Neverland. They spent almost all of S3 and a good portion of 4a apart. When Belle isn't needed in Rumpel's story, she essentially doesn't exist. These days, they don't even bother to give her an amnesia sub-plot. They just have her take long, luxurious naps  

 

Even more than Rumpel, Emma and Regina haven't really required a romantic partner in their overall stories. They've had Henry as a main focus. For quite a while, past loves (Daniel and Nealfire) weighed on their heart. It wasn't until S3b that most of that was wiped away and Henry grew out of the cute-little-kid phase...now, suddenly, they need something else to spur their stories along. 

 

As a functional matter, OQ isn't so much about a burning passion between Robin and Regina as it is a way to push Regina towards finding the Author. CS is more Rumbelle-like. Hook is there to "support" Emma and love her, to tell her she's awesome-sauce with rainbow sprinkles on top, to listen to her while she shares from her Sad Box of Orphan Memories, to be someone Emma can fear losing. If you squint through shipper goggles, it seems like a relationship..until you stop to think that (like Rumbelle) they don't really talk about much beyond the crisis of the moment, we don't really know what they see in each other, and unless Hook is right in front of Emma, she barely seems to think about him, whereas Hook seems to have little on his plate other than Emma.

 

Overall, A&E like their characters to be "in love" as a matter of fate, without wasting a lot of screen time showing the process of two people of getting to know one another on a deep emotional level - especially since they don't really care all that much about character growth and development.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Amerilla

[KingOfHearts]

 

CS is more Rumbelle-like. Hook is there to "support" Emma and love her, to tell her she's awesome-sauce with rainbow sprinkles on top, to listen to her while she shares from her Sad Box of Orphan Memories, to be someone Emma can fear losing. If you squint through shipper goggles, it seems like a relationship..until you stop to think that (like Rumbelle) they don't really talk about much beyond the crisis of the moment, we don't really know what they see in each other, and unless Hook is right in front of Emma, she barely seems to think about him, whereas Hook seems to have little on his plate other than Emma.

 

This has been my issue with Captain Swan. Hook is a handsome pirate and Emma is pretty, strong blonde. There's really not much to this relationship besides the current crisis and the sounding board. We don't know why Emma likes Hook, or even why Hook likes Emma besides the sex appeal. Outlaw Queen has the same issue. Yes they're a cute couple, but there's not much below the surface. And according to these writers, all they do is "forty-minutes of kissing". There's not much depth here.

Edited February 23, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

The couples are a reflection of this show though.  The show isn't that deep and the second we think there's going to be some sort of meaningful conversation, it gets snuffed away.  

[FabulousTater]

This has been my issue with Captain Swan. Hook is a handsome pirate and Emma is pretty, strong blonde. There's really not much to this relationship besides the current crisis and the sounding board. We don't know why Emma likes Hook, or even why Hook likes Emma besides the sex appeal.

Ah, at last we have come to the part of the hiatus where we have the exact same discussions that we had back in October/early Novermber. ;-)

 

I have to disagree. Strongly disagree, with your opinion, KoH, wrt Captain Swan. But I won't get into it because I know we've had this debate before in this very thread a few months back (see: Pages 24 and 25. ) I think if you don't see what Emma and Hook see in each other at this point, I doubt anything the show does will change your mind. And there's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing wrong with people who do see it and like/love it.

 

I for one don't get Snow and Charming, but I just go with it because it's Snow White and Prince Charming. But that doesn't invalidate that others love their relationship and think it's super romantic. There are also some out there who think Belle and Rumpel are the best thing since sliced bread. I also disagree with them, I don't see the appeal and I can tell you right now that I never will, but...we all see what we want to see.

[MaiLuna]

 

We don't know why Emma likes Hook, or even why Hook likes Emma

 

There isn't always a logical reason for liking someone - you just do. The same could be said for Snow&Charming, actually. He proposed the fifth time he saw Snow, having only spent quality time with her in Snow Falls (which was less than a day I believe) because the other 3 times they barely spoke a couple of minutes. Charming hadn't even told her he wasn't even James (Snow found out through King George), Charming thought Snow wouldn't kill Regina because he "knew" her after only Snow Falls, even though she was carrying the dark fairy dust to kill Regina (and she almost used it on her in 3.22) and True Love's Kiss worked the third time they met even though they didn't really know each other that well. In A Curious Thing Snow said it was love at first sight, so she really didn't have any real easons to love Charming.

[KingOfHearts]

 

There isn't always a logical reason for liking someone - you just do.

There doesn't have to be "logical reasons". All I want to know is what Emma sees in Hook, not necessarily the why. We are, however, well over the crush stage and at this point, logic does have to come into play when two people are coming into a committed relationship. Yes this is fairytales, but Emma and Hook are also the two most practical people on the show. Emma is also by far the deepest character, which really makes an area that is more about doughy eyes and guyliner stick out.

 

I do like Captain Swan. They're probably my favorite couple on the show, but like YaddaYadda says, this show has a serious problem with depth or good grounding. It crosses into "female protagonist gets hot, marketable boyfriend" territory. There's nothing wrong with that, I just prefer fuller relationships. I realize they've just started dating and it's moving fast, but it's been much longer for the audience. I'm not looking for uber deep conversations about their inner psyches. I'd just like to see them actually talk positively about each other instead of the current crisis when they're on a date.

 

 

I have to disagree. Strongly disagree, with your opinion, KoH, wrt Captain Swan.

I know this forum is home to many, many die-hard Captain Swan fans, like how some sites also have die-hard Regina fans. I know what I'm getting into, haha.

 

 

. The same could be said for Snow&Charming, actually.

I find Snow and Charming to be even more shallow, but I give them a pass because the relationship was already well-rooted from its fame before the show even aired. Like another poster said, their love was a major part of the plot in S1. It's highly fairy-tale-ized.

 

 

the second we think there's going to be some sort of meaningful conversation, it gets snuffed away.

 

*cough* CS date *cough*

Edited February 23, 2015 by KingOfHearts