S03.E13: Canaries

[statsgirl]

Thank you, yes, it was Diggle, Felicity and Roy, and Laurel, who had to "grow up" and make their own decisions because Oliver was gone.  And now that they have, things can't go back to the old ways. Freedom and autonomy are heady things, and in this case they're also necessary since the team can't be dependent on Oliver making good and healthy decisions.  I think that's the point MG was trying to make, but it got lost in the action and the hallucinations and the DJ and the Merlynness of it.

 

 

I disagree with this so much.  The idea that a leader should never be questioned does not work for me at all.  Oliver has made some incredibly poor decisions and the team has every right to call him on that, just as Oliver has the right to call out members of the team (which he does all the time) when they make bad decisions. Oliver is not the only one who is putting his life on the line anymore.  If I am risking my life, you better believe I am going to get a say in how that happens.  And a true leader is someone that understands, it is not always my way or the highway.

Part of the show is that Oliver isn't always right; he makes mistakes and he learns from them. Until now, Diggle and Felicity have had to say their side and hope Oliver agreed.  Now they have more force in their arguments (e.g. Roy was completely right, there was no reason to keep Thea from seeing Laurel).  There should be a leader who has the final say but it can't any more be 'my way or the highway'.

 

There are benefits to the new order that Oliver can't see right now.  For one thing, it's not all on his shoulders now, and that's been a heavy burden to bear.  (Chances are it's going to play into the rest of the season, all there many costumed heroes can't be for nothing.) 

 

It also means that maybe he can have a life beyond being the Arrow, once that little problem with Ra's is solved.  Maybe a night off for dinner and dancing because Roy, Diggle and Laurel can take over keeping the city safe.  At the least, it let's him go off to Lian Yu to train with Merlyn (idiotic as the idea is) if he wants.

Edited February 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[ElTVaddict]

What was Thea's problem? The whole time Oliver was telling her to stay away from Malcolm that he dangerous, she didn't want to hear it. Now she's upset that he manipulated her and drove a wedge between them (she and Oliver). She never told Oliver how deep her's and Malcolm relationship ran. He was trying her, she left town with him, now of that has come to light or did I miss something. She was a willing party in the manipulation in my opinion and the only person she has to be angry with is herself.

[statsgirl]

She's ostensibly angry because Malcolm lied to her. That was her big thing at the end of last season when she went off with him, he may have been a mass murdered and a psychopath but at least he never lied to her.

 

Now that she found out he did, that he knew Oliver was The Arrow, she's back to being mad at him again.  Wait till she finds out everyone is lying to her about killing Sara.

 

Me, I think she and Malcolm are playing a long con together, and this play-acting was part of it.

[apinknightmare]

Me, I think she and Malcolm are playing a long con together, and this play-acting was part of it.

 

I think so too, and I desperately hope we're wrong. But because Oliver can't seem to have one single good thing in his life, we'll probably be right.

[jay741982]

She's ostensibly angry because Malcolm lied to her. That was her big thing at the end of last season when she went off with him, he may have been a mass murdered and a psychopath but at least he never lied to her.

 

Now that she found out he did, that he knew Oliver was The Arrow, she's back to being mad at him again.  Wait till she finds out everyone is lying to her about killing Sara.

 

Me, I think she and Malcolm are playing a long con together, and this play-acting was part of it.

I hope not it's inconvceiable that Thea would do that to Oliver choosing a psychopath who murdered all these people and don't give a damn about anyone but himself over her own brother who's lies don't equal what Malcolm has done.

[kismet]

I went through the episode to watch a few scenes, and one thing I found annoying was the conversation between Diggle and Oliver while they were drinking at the bar. Oliver about Laurel, "She's not a soldier" and then Diggle responds, "Neither are you." Seriously, Diggle? No, Oliver was never in the military, but he was pretty much Amanda Waller's personal soldier, and he's endured some fairly awful shit (torture, waterboarding, being stabbed and shot, killing people, etc.). That piece of dialogue was idiotic.

Does Oliver ever tell them all the stuff he went thru? We see it in flashbacks, but I really think his core team has no idea what he actually suffered & how much training he actually got. I'm not saying he need to reveal all, buts its s3 not s1, he can come back & tell diggle that hs went thru he's own type of boot camp. The problem w LL is that she is not a soldier, she does not have the training or the inclination for discipline that a soldier has. So oq' concerns are legit. I mean there are pretty strict rules/laws/codes that regulate the bar & justice system & she seems to not care about those, so what makes dig think she'll just pick up on the discipline required to train& do the things the need to do to make it home alive? I'm not saying she can't develop them, but right now she feels like more of liability despite how much she tries or how big her heart is. U don't need to bench her, but not sure id be so confident in having her first string just cuz she really wants to be there.

[Actionmage]

Yes, there is a team and Oliver is the leader, and the funder.

 

The italicized part stumps me. The show went to all the trouble to de-fund the Queens, in fact making sure that Thea was so angry at Moira and Oliver that the family's money was now gone/inaccessible/under new management. That's how we ended up with So-broke-Felicity-had-to-buy-him-a-bed Oliver. The trope of Rich Dude Turned Poor.Not only did it give posters here who actually knew about money and business money matters migranes, but it made no sense just trying to parse what the show said. So at the beginning of this season, we have Poor Oliver hand-crafting a bitty, teeny arrowhead for Little, bitty Sara. Because it was all he could afford.

 

He was squatting on QC property. I was head-cannoning that since Felicity can hack anything, that's how utilities were available. There was parsing about the aforementioned bed! If he was broke and  Felicity had to work at the McDonald's of tech, where was any in-coming cash, besides Felicity? If the guys were in the field, cleaning up the streets full time, then they weren't flush with cash either. If they were accepting ARGUS items and/or help? That leaves them in as gray a space as they are with Merlyn (see: Waller, Amanda.)

 

So if being the leader equates to who is actually putting money in the kitty? It ain't Oliver right now, if we are to take the show at it's word. If we are supposed to not worry because it's just a TV show, then a couple of lines about how nice that the board let Ollie have his family's fortune back as he was going to try to buy the company would have been nice and relatively simple. Ray could still have the company, Oliver could still have decided he was okay not running QC. The fact that the billionaire would have the money needed to fund his vigilante activities would negate any wonder at how any of the continuing activities are happening on a budget of gum and a spool of thread.

 

Felicity now has an amazing salary, which she is sharing freely ( the facial recognition software for Team Flash) and whatever bleeding edge stuff she can grab for Team Arrow. Unless we are supposed to just take on faith that Oliver can scrounge cash enough to keep the utilities and high-end, custom arrowheads, and the ammo for the firearms and the first aid supplies that they go through like whoa, and everything else. If not, then Oliver is on even or lesser footing to the others. He was the leader because all the toys were his. They still have his toys, but there are others that the team has added. It's not all his anymore. He can roll with the changes- which can be hard, but the team wants Oliver back- or indeed kick everyone out of the basement of a club he isn't the owner of anymore.   But that is rich, coming from the king of squatters, Oliver.

 

I would like Oliver to lead again, but with less assiness. He used to listen to Felicity and Diggle and see when they had points. It may not have been a straight-up democracy, but it wasn't a dictatorship either.  I think the less assiness is all the rest want.

[statsgirl]

You missed the big explanation (retcon) over the summer.  Moira had $3 or $4 million in insurance policies so Oliver is working his way through that money to fund the crusade.  As Greg Berlanti said, they didn't want to write Oliver Queen: The Poverty Years.

 

No idea if he's still paying Diggle. He's not paying Felicity and Roy has a part-time job working for Thea.  No idea why Felicity had to buy him a bed, and now I've even lost hope of it being Chechov's bed since  he's living with Thea on MM's money.

 

Why Moira would  have a life insurance policy that big is something you might be able to figure out. I never could.

Edited February 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

You missed the big explanation (retcon) over the summer.  Moira had $3 or $4 million in insurance policies so Oliver is working his way through that money to fund the crusade.  As Greg Berlanti said, they didn't want to write Oliver Queen: The Poverty Years.

 

No idea if he's still paying Diggle. He's not paying Felicity and Roy has a part-time job working for Thea.  No idea why Felicity had to buy him a bed, and now I've even lost hope of it being Chechov's bed since  he's living with Thea on MM's money.

 

Why Moira would  have a life insurance policy that big is something you might be able to figure out. I never could.

 

Oliver probably brought the bed Felicity bought for him and weeps into it every night cursing himself because he's so stupid :p Yep. 

 

Also, MG stated that Digg is living off of Lyla's hard earned money. Not that I mind the role reversal, I just thought that his character was destined for something so much BETTER than that you know? :/ 

[DrSpaceman10]

I think Malcolm invested in Verdant so Thea could open it again, so in theory Malcolm owns the foundry. Malcolm also owns (or at least paid for) the place where Oliver and Thea are living. Arrow logic does not resemble our Earth logic.

[kismet]

Here's a game changer I would enjoy - nobody dies anymore this season or in s4 premiere to resolve a plot or push a character to fulfilling a destiny. Dont believe it will happen, but wanted to throw it out into the universe...

[AyChihuahua]

Dig probably also has a military pension.  Honestly, if you think about the money situation at all you'll drive yourself crazy.  I figured he has a couple million, he's using poetic license when he said he couldn't afford a baby gift, and Felicity bought him his bed because he really doesn't seem like the kind of guy to actually go to a mattress store to pick one out.

[kismet]

I'm gonna go with it took awhile for the insurance money to come in, which is realistic. There is a lot of paperwork that needs to be completed & hoops to jump through when u cash an insurance policy. Add on top of that her death is theoretically part of a murder investigation & policy is worth millions, that probably took some time to process.

[Actionmage]

Thanks for the life insurance info, everyone. I try not to take Malcolm's herbs, yet spaced that point. 

 

Still? If Oliver were less assy, TA ( and TA scenes) would be less frustrating. But that is a useless hope, as the show is about plot points and not characters this season.

[statsgirl]

I'm sure the bank would have given him an advance even if it takes months to do the paperwork.  He's a Queen, he'd be good for it.

 

I think what happened is that they started with Broke Oliver in 3x01 where Felicity bought the bed and he couldn't afford a present for the baby, and then they realized they didn't want to keep writing it so by the time SDCC came around, they'd come up with the insurance policy explanation.

[InsertWordHere]

I don't think Felicity bought him the bed because he couldn't afford it. I think she bought him the bed because he wouldn't buy one for himself and didn't care that he was sleeping on the floor. Oliver got used to living without certain comforts during his five years away. However, Diggle did seem to think Oliver couldn't afford a present for little Sara, but I think Diggle was just protesting Oliver using his limited funds for a present and not a necessity. 

 

Other than those two things, and the fact that he is living on his sister's (Merlyn's) dime, everything else seems to suggest he still has some funds. He was going to take Felicity to dinner. He traveled to Corto Maltese (although that could have been paid for by Diggle or ARGUS) and Central City and to the League's mountain (in Asia apparently) and back. I think he's just broke in the sense that he only spends his money on the mission and not on his personal life, which goes along with his desire to be the Arrow instead of Oliver Queen.

[BkWurm1]

It's the same kind of logic that has him say he can only be the Arrow and can't be Oliver but he's been more Oliver with everyone but Felicity this year. 

 

I wonder if the show runner are deliberately writing him taking steps to get closer to his sister (occasionally Diggle and Roy) every time he has a set back with Felicity or if it's a coincidence. 

[dtissagirl]

I legit expect Malcolm's sudden but inevitable betrayal to start with evicting Team Arrow from the foundry it turns out is his, now that he gave Thea the money to buy the building.

[Aeryn13]

The only scene I liked in this one was Oliver telling Thea and her reaction. It was unexpected but nevertheless a great moment between the siblings.

 

Thea doing a 180 on Malcolm didn`t make any sense. I would have totally bought it if she had found out he made her kill Sarah because that was an atrocious and unforgiveable act against his own daughter.

 

Waller is more evil and cruel than anyone I`ve seen on this show. She is like the R`as al Ghul of Argus, only he has a code of honour and she doesn`t.  

 

Felicity was the character I cared for least in this entire episode. Apart from constantly being in bitchy mode, Sarah was her friend so spitting on her memory like that? Horrible. And really, that is what this was. Sarah had to live through a crucible neither Felicity nor Laurel could even imagine. Lets put them through it and see how squeaky clean and shiny they come out after 5 years. Or if they have the will-power and strength to live through it in the first place. It`s pretty easy to judge down from your armchair highhorse, Felicity. 

 

In that vein, Oliver was also correct to point out that you can`t equate Laurel and him right now. And not just because of the training. What happened in those five years, what was done to him or Sarah, what they did to survive. In comparism Laurel`s "hero" journey feels rushed as hell, it can`t not. And I get that they couldn`t take five years for it but a couple months of training and some field work does not make her an equal to people who had been painstakingly made into warriors.Thea got that after one fight with the League plant.

 

Oliver can be a dick occassionally with "my way or the highway" but he was by no means wrong to question Laurel`s involvement. She`d be dead if he hadn`t put that tracker on her because she sought out danger she is not remotely equipped to handle yet. So, it felt unearned and stupid that the episode had to end with him coming around and giving her his seal of approval.   

 

Right now, I`m more interested in anything Oliver/Thea on the island and Malcolm adjacent. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by Aeryn13

[looptab]

I'm pretty sure I saw Stephen Amell cracking up at one point during the episode. Did anyone else notice or it's just me seeing things? :)

[statsgirl]

Felicity was the character I cared for least in this entire episode. Apart from constantly being in bitchy mode, Sarah was her friend so spitting on her memory like that? Horrible. And really, that is what this was. Sarah had to live through a crucible neither Felicity nor Laurel could even imagine. Lets put them through it and see how squeaky clean and shiny they come out after 5 years. Or if they have the will-power and strength to live through it in the first place. It`s pretty easy to judge down from your armchair highhorse, Felicity. 

 

In that vein, Oliver was also correct to point out that you can`t equate Laurel and him right now. And not just because of the training. What happened in those five years, what was done to him or Sarah, what they did to survive. In comparism Laurel`s "hero" journey feels rushed as hell, it can`t not. And I get that they couldn`t take five years for it but a couple months of training and some field work does not make her an equal to people who had been painstakingly made into warriors.Thea got that after one fight with the League plant.

 

Oliver can be a dick occassionally with "my way or the highway" but he was by no means wrong to question Laurel`s involvement. She`d be dead if he hadn`t put that tracker on her because she sought out danger she is not remotely equipped to handle yet. So, it felt unearned and stupid that the episode had to end with him coming around and giving her his seal of approval.  

This is why the rush to make Laurel BC and Ray The Atom is spoiling what was good about  the show in previous seasons.  Oliver taking Laurel with him to fight instead of Diggle, so that at the end of the episode he can tell her she's earned the right to fight with the team (next episode -- she gets her own mannikin for her costume so she doesn't have to carry it back and forth), and not bothering to check in with the Team as a human being rather than The Boss is creating all sorts of problems that didn't need to be there.

 

I really think that MG thought that Felicity's light speech would make the viewers love her and Laurel even more, and it did for many people, yay, girl bonding! and he was surprised by the reaction of those who thought it was disrespectful to both Sara and Felicity.

 

I have decided to fast forward through Laurel scenes from here on in, especially if Felicity is in them.  I can't take any more what they're doing to Felicity to prop Laurel.

 

 

It's the same kind of logic that has him say he can only be the Arrow and can't be Oliver but he's been more Oliver with everyone but Felicity this year. 

 

I wonder if the show runner are deliberately writing him taking steps to get closer to his sister (occasionally Diggle and Roy) every time he has a set back with Felicity or if it's a coincidence. 

Maybe they have to have him getting closer to someone since the divide between him and Felicity is getting so wide and except for 312, he's the one who looks dickish for it.

 

I wonder if the show will have Thea working with Malcolm after all (if you thought it hurt to have Felicity reject him, stay tuned) and then he gives up on being close to anyone and goes full on Arrow.

 

I still don't think the division between the Arrow and Oliver Queen, which is supposed to be his story for this season, is well done because half his brain, the one that thinks about beyond and their feelings rather than thinking as if they are machines, seems to have been left behind in Oliver Queen's persona.

[CabotCove]

Well I must be easy to please because I really enjoyed this episode. I teared up a bit during the Oliver, Thea scene. He was so ready for her to reject him, and she opened her arms and accepted him. I really love the dynamics between these two characters.  I also am enjoying LL as the black canary. I like that she admitted to being afraid last week. This week I continued to enjoy her scenes with Oliver and Quentin.  I like how she can disagree and argue with Oliver, then they are over it and getting things done. No nasty little comments, recriminations etc.  LL and her Dad, just I can't. I loved the scene.

So to sum up the episode I really enjoyed Oliver, LL, Thea and MM (I just can't help it, no matter what he does I love him, I don't care and this is fiction, I don't have to care).

 

Kind of agree with a lot of this. Its always refreshing and nice to see a different kind of opinion on this sub-forum.

 

I don't think Felicity bought him the bed because he couldn't afford it. I think she bought him the bed because he wouldn't buy one for himself and didn't care that he was sleeping on the floor. Oliver got used to living without certain comforts during his five years away. However, Diggle did seem to think Oliver couldn't afford a present for little Sara, but I think Diggle was just protesting Oliver using his limited funds for a present and not a necessity.

 

Good explanation. ITA.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Conell

[teddy-bear]

I disagree with this so much.  The idea that a leader should never be questioned does not work for me at all.  Oliver has made some incredibly poor decisions and the team has every right to call him on that, just as Oliver has the right to call out members of the team (which he does all the time) when they make bad decisions. Oliver is not the only one who is putting his life on the line anymore.  If I am risking my life, you better believe I am going to get a say in how that happens.  And a true leader is someone that understands, it is not always my way or the highway.

What I meant in my original post was that his leadership of the team was earned, not that I felt he should be followed blindly and never be questioned.  Later on in the post I mentioned that in the past he would listen to their input and compromises were reached.  They didn't even afford him a say in anything when he returned - he was told 'this is the way we do things now - deal with it - in oher words Felicity, Diggle, Roy and Laurel basically told him that it was their way or the highway.

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Later on in the post I mentioned that in the past he would listen to their input and compromises were reached.  They didn't even afford him a say in anything when he returned - he was told 'this is the way we do things now - deal with it - in oher words Felicity, Diggle, Roy and Laurel basically told him that it was their way or the highway.

 

Well to be fair, "this is the way we do things now - deal with it" came after Oliver had already scolded Diggle for letting Laurel go into the field, treated Thea like a child because apparently the woman who saw her mother skewered needs protection from seeing Laurel on a gurney and basically told Roy he had no right to stand up to him.  Now I am not saying that the tension in the lair was all Oliver's fault.  It was not.  Yes, Oliver can be controlling, but the team was also defensive and Oliver/Felicity had a whole other set of issues underlying their interactions.  Not to mention Stephen Amell's does that sad look so well, it is hard not to always side with him. But Oliver's return lasted all of a week before he's taking off again and the more Oliver dumps the protection of the city in the team's lap (even if he believes he has a good reason for doing so),the more ownership of the mission they are going to want.

[icandigit]

Laurel had no business out in the field. I have no problem with Oliver not wanting Thea to see Laurel like that. I would have no problem doing that to my grown younger siblings. Heck, I wish someone would have shielded me from seeing Laurel on the table like that. Those convulsions were hilarious. It  is ridiculous for me to see characters coming at Oliver when he's the one with the serious issue going on right now. It's his sister  that has a bull-eye on her. From the time the gambit went down Oliver has existed in this really morally questionable space. Him making all types of weird deals with the devil and why is the only thing even keeping me half way interested in this.  I'm just not invested in this team arrow democracy thing.

[BkWurm1]

Laurel had no business out in the field. I have no problem with Oliver not wanting Thea to see Laurel like that. I would have no problem doing that to my grown younger siblings. Heck, I wish someone would have shielded me from seeing Laurel on the table like that. Those convulsions were hilarious. It  is ridiculous for me to see characters coming at Oliver when he's the one with the serious issue going on right now. It's his sister  that has a bull-eye on her. From the time the gambit went down Oliver has existed in this really morally questionable space. Him making all types of weird deals with the devil and why is the only thing even keeping me half way interested in this.  I'm just not invested in this team arrow democracy thing.

If Oliver had told Thea, now's not, or you shouldn't see this, or even I don't have time for this now,  I wouldn't have objected,  but he just up and screamed get out of here like Thea was a naughty child about to touch a stove. Thea is his little sister but she stopped being a kid a long time ago.  He had no business speaking to her so harshly  or treating her like she was the one causing the problem.  His reaction was probably more scaring than seeing Laurel injured.  I can't come up with a single good reason to justify his behavior and Roy was absolutely in the right to call him on it. 

 

Interestingly, it seemed that OLiver was more upset that he was being questioned than whether or not he should have been questioned and that is the mentality that IMO couldn't be tolerated anymore. 

[Password]

Is this normal behaviour for Oliver? Has he ever been this bad?

[InsertWordHere]

At first I thought Oliver didn't want Thea in the lair because he was trying to protect the identities of Felicity, Diggle, and Laurel, but the rest of the scene didn't play out that way. Still, as far as we've seen, Oliver revealing himself as the Arrow does not necessarily mean he would be willing to let Thea know everything about the team. I think Diggle's involvement would be obvious whether Thea saw him down there or not, but Felicity and Laurel's would not be. I really wish we had gotten a reaction from Thea regarding Felicity or even a scene sometime over the past two seasons of Thea expressing an interest in Oliver's relationship with her. 

[teddy-bear]

Well to be fair, "this is the way we do things now - deal with it" came after Oliver had already scolded Diggle for letting Laurel go into the field, treated Thea like a child because apparently the woman who saw her mother skewered needs protection from seeing Laurel on a gurney and basically told Roy he had no right to stand up to him.  Now I am not saying that the tension in the lair was all Oliver's fault.  It was not.  Yes, Oliver can be controlling, but the team was also defensive and Oliver/Felicity had a whole other set of issues underlying their interactions.  Not to mention Stephen Amell's does that sad look so well, it is hard not to always side with him. But Oliver's return lasted all of a week before he's taking off again and the more Oliver dumps the protection of the city in the team's lap (even if he believes he has a good reason for doing so),the more ownership of the mission they are going to want.

I didn't really see it as Oliver scolding Diggle...he said he couldn't believe Diggle signed off on Laurel going out in the field...a fair question and quite a valid one seeing as how many times she needed saving when she went out there.  Roy, Diggle and Ollie have had far more training than Laurel had, and Oliver was proved right when Laurel decided to take off and confront the Count by herself. Thea he was trying to protect - something big brothers do, and always will do no matter how old their younger sister gets, and Roy was out of line stepping in on that confrontation between brother and sister - it was Thea's place to tell Ollie to back off.  I just find the writers decision to have the team be so antagonistic and uninterested in wanting to know what Oliver had been through, having Felicity make snide comments about wasn't there any cell phones that he could have used to call them and other things she said that were just so unnecessarily harsh. The entire team made Oliver feel like he let them all down by being run through by a sword, pushed off a mountain, coming back from the dead, trekking back to Starling City and not doing it fast enough for them all.  I do find it ridiculous that the writers have Ollie giving this big speech to the people of the glades about never leaving Starling again and then he promptly does just that, but then again, according to Felicity and Diggle and Roy (and Laurel), team arrow plus one got along just fine without him, so why should he even bother sticking around. I know Ollie needs to do a little better with discussing missions with the team before settling on what needs to be done, but over the last two seasons the writers have had him make huge improvements in that direction, so to have the team be so aggressive and dismissive towards him so soon after his return when they knew he'd been through something pretty major is just so unrealistic with how their characters have been up till now.  They went from zero to nasty in a blink of an eye, and seemed to forget the reason why he left in the first place - to protect Thea.  For the first time, Oliver didn't do "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" and the writers have made it look like the team resents him for making that decision.  It's also selfish and unrealistic to not have a single one of them even consider his thinking that the only way he has the slightest chance of defeating ra's al ghul is to train with someone who was in the league - and unfortunately for now, that person is Malcolm Merlyn.  The writers should have had them at least consider this option, even though it is making a deal with the devil.  It's awfully easy to have high and mighty principles when you haven't faced what Ollie faced on that mountain.  If team arrow, and Felicity really cared about him at all, they all would have handled his return and his decision to work with Merlyn completely differently.  

 

If they had handled his return and decision less aggressively, he wouldn't have been so defensive back - his discussion with Diggle at the end of the episode was how it should have been done when he first returned, instead of him feeling backed into a corner and having to fight his way out.  That first confrontation with the team was the catalyst for his responses for the rest of the episode.

Edited February 15, 2015 by teddy-bear

[jay741982]

At first I thought Oliver didn't want Thea in the lair because he was trying to protect the identities of Felicity, Diggle, and Laurel, but the rest of the scene didn't play out that way. Still, as far as we've seen, Oliver revealing himself as the Arrow does not necessarily mean he would be willing to let Thea know everything about the team. I think Diggle's involvement would be obvious whether Thea saw him down there or not, but Felicity and Laurel's would not be. I really wish we had gotten a reaction from Thea regarding Felicity or even a scene sometime over the past two seasons of Thea expressing an interest in Oliver's relationship with her.

We probably won't get any scene of Thea asking Oliver about his relationship with Felicity until We get Thea/Felicity scenes.

[benteen]

The idea that the leader shouldn't be questioned doesn't work for me either.  Especially in Oliver's case, as he's made a number of questionable decisions and deserves to be called out on them.  Not questioning the leader on TV shows leads to no drama.

 

At the same time, it should be noted that Team Arrow was barely surviving without Oliver so it's not like they can go it alone.  But calling out their leader for his sometimes bullshit and selfish decisions, I have no issue with that at all.

Edited February 15, 2015 by benteen

[KirkB]

I don't know of any leader in any medium who was so absolutely correct one hundred percent of the time that their decisions could and should never be questioned. In the past if Diggle or Felicity had some issue with something Oliver said or did they were free to call him on it. Sure they have agreed to follow Oliver on his crusade and have accepted him as the leader of the team but that doesn't mean they have to shut up and sit quietly, waiting to be told what to do. And even if they had agreed to do it that way, which as far as I know they never did, after a month of them thinking he was dead they had to either close up shop and go their separate ways or start making decisions for themselves. When Oliver came back he might have assumed the same dynamic was in place as had been when he left, but clearly it isn't and he's the one who has to accept that. That doesn't mean he has to shut up and sit quietly either, however. What Oliver seems to have a problem with is that it's not just his mission anymore. He has accepted these people as equals and needs to treat them that way. He can't do everything by himself but they can't do it by themselves either. They need each other. Well, maybe not Laurel. I'm not sure anyone needs her.

Edited February 15, 2015 by KirkB

[icandigit]

I don't see anyone saying Oliver or any leader shouldn't be challenged or questioned. One of the things people used to enjoy about the show is that OG team arrow did. But,  going at Oliver for protecting his sister or for Laurel going into the field. Not a good look. Especially, when there are more important things going on. I'm never going to not like Oliver for being protective of the people in his life. Even if irrationally so. He is not always nice and I don't have a problem with that. Besides Thea has never had a problem standing up to Oliver and telling him where to shove it.

 

What would bother me, is that it  wouldn't matter to him that Sara or Laurel were putting themselves in danger. Or that he would have no interest in trying to protect them. Or not wanting his sister to experience yet another traumatic event after all the other ones she's had. And its mind-boggling to me that there wasn't enough respect for Oliver's experience in this to consider  his point of view regarding Laurel. I can't believe this foolishness is over Roy and Laurel. If they are going to come at him, let it be over something better this. Your not the boss of us now dynamic isn't really working for me.

Edited February 15, 2015 by icandigit

[AyChihuahua]

I figured out why I hate this Merlyn storyline so very, very much.  It's not just that he's pure unadulterated evil out only to save his own butt, and it's not only that he started all this (both with the Undertaking and with drugging Thea).  It's that every single day she continues to be in danger ONLY because of Merlyn's continuing threats and cowardice.  The only reason Ra's would know she was the weapon is because MERLYN has it on video and has threatened to send the video to Ra's.  If Oliver had a brain in his head he would get close to Malcolm to find every copy of the video, destroy them all, then deliver Merlyn's head to Ra's on a platter.

[BkWurm1]

I figured out why I hate this Merlyn storyline so very, very much.  It's not just that he's pure unadulterated evil out only to save his own butt, and it's not only that he started all this (both with the Undertaking and with drugging Thea).  It's that every single day she continues to be in danger ONLY because of Merlyn's continuing threats and cowardice.  The only reason Ra's would know she was the weapon is because MERLYN has it on video and has threatened to send the video to Ra's.  If Oliver had a brain in his head he would get close to Malcolm to find every copy of the video, destroy them all, then deliver Merlyn's head to Ra's on a platter.

And for this, he would need some technical help, which means he'd be working closely with Felicity rather than the current valley between them.  Stupid forced plot lines ruing everything. 

 

I just find the writers decision to have the team be so antagonistic and uninterested in wanting to know what Oliver had been through, having Felicity make snide comments about wasn't there any cell phones that he could have used to call them

 

I didn't find it snide.  I thought it a very legitimate question and indicative of the whole problem - Oliver hasn't told them anything about what he went through.  He said he'd almost died, but as far as the team could see he was back to fighting form in under a month so was he close to death like the time they brought Barry into the fold and he was fine by the end of the day and then what was he doing?  The way Oliver came back to them - low priority on his list and then straight to business made me feel like they didn't matter much to him as human beings which after them morning his death- not just the loss of the Arrow but the end of the man, it's a punch to the gut to be treated so impersonally and had to trigger a lot of second guessing in the moment even if more rational heads prevail later - except there is no later because nobody is allowed to talk it out on the show.

 

What I wouldn't give for an actual productive argument where they yell and disagree and get mad but actually finish the conversation so that explanations can get out and emotions can be expressed and apologies can be given and accepted.

[benteen]

I figured out why I hate this Merlyn storyline so very, very much.  It's not just that he's pure unadulterated evil out only to save his own butt, and it's not only that he started all this (both with the Undertaking and with drugging Thea).  It's that every single day she continues to be in danger ONLY because of Merlyn's continuing threats and cowardice.  The only reason Ra's would know she was the weapon is because MERLYN has it on video and has threatened to send the video to Ra's.  If Oliver had a brain in his head he would get close to Malcolm to find every copy of the video, destroy them all, then deliver Merlyn's head to Ra's on a platter.

 

Things is, they've portrayed the League as so ridiculously over-the-top that handing them Malcolm's head won't be good enough for them.   The League to be from the same school as Amanda Waller when it comes to overkill though they are a lot smarter than Amanda Waller.

Edited February 15, 2015 by benteen

[kismet]

Did felicity make snide comments about cell reception? I don't remember that... Most of the convos during canaries seemed in character for where the characters are at this point. With the exception of the light comment which was lazy writing or the writers trying to hard to make LL accepted when really they could have left out the light analogy and it still would have worked if felicity just told her to be herself. I mean a simple sit down conversation amongst team arrow would take off some of the venom of their words, but writers want drama. Not usually craving the angst, by I do think its better to have that then to resolve it as quickly as they did with Oliver just accepting LL in the end, like none if his concerns still have merit. Plus I think its important for Oliver to realize that he was dead and the impact it had on his friends. I seem to think he took his return lightly towards TA. Maybe he never realized that they thought he was dead. He needs to understand what it was like for them too. I don't see their arguing as insubordination or try to replace his leadership. Its just the nature of people adjusting to growths & changes. Similar things happen in workplace all the time even when life & death are not on the agenda

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I don't recall Felicity saying anything about cell reception at all. Oliver did - he said he was in a place that didn't have any.

[BkWurm1]

Did felicity make snide comments about cell reception?

 

I think in Uprising she mentioned something. 

 

Edited: No, she doesn't actually mention cell phones but the part I was thinking of is in Uprising in the alley scene after Oliver say I'm sorry and she says for what, maybe you could be a little more specific.  "For letting us believe you were dead...for weeks or for abandoning every principal you claimed to have by getting into bed with Malcolm Merlyn."

 

It's the letting us believe you were dead for weeks line that seems to question if he really couldn't have contacted them earlier.  At that point where she's feeling like she really doesn't know him, it didn't surprise me, plus, it never came off as snide to me. 

Edited February 15, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

Oliver came back with his excuse all ready -- I didn't let you know I was alive because I was at a place with no cell reception -- which sounds like he's feeling defensive to letting them think he's dead for so long.  Which really, he should be because he should have called as soon as he got to a place with cell reception, instead of going out to save Merlyn's soul and grandstanding with the speech, then going to Thea's place to make his deal with the devil.  He put Team Arrow way down on the list of priorities and he know it.

 

So that would probably play into why she's so fed up with him now, it's not the the Merlyn thing, it's the orders and seeming not to care about them now that he's back. You know, for reasons.

 

You know what makes bad soap opera?  It's when everything is so ridiculously contrived and you know that if the two people just sat down and had a conversation it would all work out.  ('Why are you cheating on me with John? I'm breaking up with you now' 'I wasn't cheating, I was working on a secret surprise party for you' Oh, okay, let's not break up then'.)

 

From the time Oliver put Malcolm under his protection from the crime of killing 503+ people, none of this made sense. Now Diggle is staying in the lair, and Felicity is telling Laurel she has the light Sara doesn't. Welcome to bad soap opera, Arrow.

[Actionmage]

Welcome to bad soap opera, Arrow.

 

Yep! I have enjoyed soaps and gotten caught up and yelled at them. While soaps can have the epic misunderstandings and yell fights, you know what else they do?  The characters have a freakin' conversation to hash out things, get back on track- if that's what the characters are going for- and say that they will try to do better in the future. Be it a CEO, a bartender, a rich widow or a college student.

 

Granted, soaps also have five episodes a week to tape, to Arrow's one, but not every non-Friday soap episode is treading water either. Maybe watching some good soaps would help the writers?

[Ang]

OR, they could realize that their target demographic of youngish males doesn't care for soap operas, and they could learn how to let things happen off-screen and relationships play out without being the pulled to the forefront. The subtle, playful, almost beside the point interaction and connection between Oliver and Felicity made Olicity a thing before they decided, unnecessarily, to drag it to the forefront and give it the soap opera treatment that sucked most of the authenticity and fun right out of it. Not having to show everything would help situations where they're implying development but haven't had time to actually show it, like TA achieving competence in Oliver's absence. They did a little of that when Felicity talked to QL about sending Arsenal, but a few more mentions of victories or scenes of relieved celebration or something would have gone a long way.

On a side note, go back to the scene where Laurel's sitting on the table talking to Felicity. (I've seen a screen grab of it, but after I had my oldest kid I blinked and 10 years went by and now I'm bad at the Internet, and I can't find it now.) Look at how much skinnier and less toned Laurel's arms are. It's a pretty dramatic difference, and one of the reasons I think it's hard to swallow her as being effective in a fight.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Ang

[dtissagirl]

There's been a whole lot of talking AT each other instead of talking to each other lately. People say whatever the plot needs them to say and then leave, or the scene ends right there on whatever big statement du jour. And it's gotta be like that, because if these characters have actual conversations, they'd solve all of their current problems in the next cold open.

It's also the only thing they can do to sell the Malcolm Merlyn Redemption Tour. Because the answer to the "is Malcolm redeemable" question is LOL NO. 500+ disenfranchised citizens dead because he thought killing all the poor peoples would save the city, dead Tommy, mind-raped Thea made into an assassin, dead Sara, blackmailed Oliver losing a duel and thrown off a cliff left for dead.

But the plot dictates someone needs to think maaaaybe this guy can be saved, so there goes Oliver not talking to anyone, #foreveralone.

ETA: you know what's my favorite part about the Malcolm storyline? Why hasn't ADA Laurel Lance contacted the FBI yet, to alert them a mass murderer is alive and well and currently in Starling City? The obvious answer is because Malcolm is threatening to sell Thea out to the LoA with his home videos, but LAUREL DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT ANY OF THAT. Because if anyone tells her, the entire plot crumbles. Laurel is not doing her day job and going after Merlyn because she isn't. Team Arrow is not telling Laurel who killed Sara because they aren't. And so it goes.

Edited February 15, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Password]

There's been a whole lot of talking AT each other instead of talking to each other lately. People say whatever the plot needs them to say and then leave, or the scene ends right there on whatever big statement du jour. And it's gotta be like that, because if these characters have actual conversations, they'd solve all of their current problems in the next cold open.

Exactly.

[statsgirl]

ETA: you know what's my favorite part about the Malcolm storyline? Why hasn't ADA Laurel Lance contacted the FBI yet, to alert them a mass murderer is alive and well and currently in Starling City? The obvious answer is because Malcolm is threatening to sell Thea out to the LoA with his home videos, but LAUREL DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT ANY OF THAT. Because if anyone tells her, the entire plot crumbles. Laurel is not doing her day job and going after Merlyn because she isn't. Team Arrow is not telling Laurel who killed Sara because they aren't. And so it goes.

Now that's a question for MG's tumblr.

[steelyis]

#foreveralone.

 

Ha!

 

ETA: you know what's my favorite part about the Malcolm storyline? Why hasn't ADA Laurel Lance contacted the FBI yet, to alert them a mass murderer is alive and well and currently in Starling City? The obvious answer is because Malcolm is threatening to sell Thea out to the LoA with his home videos, but LAUREL DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT ANY OF THAT. Because if anyone tells her, the entire plot crumbles. Laurel is not doing her day job and going after Merlyn because she isn't. Team Arrow is not telling Laurel who killed Sara because they aren't. And so it goes.

 

Thanks a lot, dancingnancy, you just added another layer of contrivance to the beef trifle Arrow has become.

Edited February 16, 2015 by steelyis

[catrox14]

 

Thanks a lot, dancingnancy, you just added another layer of contrivance to the beef trifle Arrow has become.

 

Upvoting for the beef trifle reference alone.

[catrox14]

Okay so I've been sick so I had some more time to rewatch some episodes.  I decided to rewatch this to figure out if I hated it because of Laurel's unearned ascension, or Felicity and Sara character assassination to prop Laurel , but I realize I hate it because of how TA treated Oliver more and that it's setting up Lauriver Redoux.

 

Didn't they say it had only been a week since Oliver returned. How long had Oliver been gone? A month?  Oliver took a step back to his controlling ways but I think that is Oliver being triggered back to his coping skills post Island because he just went through another major trauma. He lost the fight to Ra's, he was either really most sincerely dead and resurrected or just mostly dead and was pushed off a mountain. He believes even more now that he can't be Oliver and the Arrow and he believes he has to to ally with the devil for reasons.

 

So in the whole week he's been back did NO ONE on TA bother to consider that Oliver just went through another trauma that might be triggering his PTSD all over again. IMO that is why Oliver is behaving with hypervigilance about Thea and Laurel, because he needs them to be safe. I'm not saying his behavior is great but it's understandable given his history. And his friend John, who saw Oliver post-Island with the PTSD and nightmares and controlling behavior, did not take 5 minutes to pull Oliver aside and say ..."look man, you have been through another major trauma. I think this might be affecting you and you are reverting back to those things that didn't entirely work for you before. But I get it. Either way, we had to move on and learn to cope without you. Now that you're back we need to regroup and for all of us to figure out how to have you back" .

 

Obviously,  it doesn't have to be that lengthy of a discussion but something anything to show me that TA specifically John would have some compassion and be the smartest guy in the room as usual...that John did not forget what Oliver went through before and he just might be fucked up again.

 

But instead we get the "you don't have a right" crap from Roy and Felicity.  WTF. That seems really overly harsh and mean.  It didn't make me side with them it made me think WTF? Why are you essentially saying to Oliver that he has no right to what he thinks needs to happen.

 

To me Amell played those scenes as though Oliver was shocked and hurt not because they were questioning his authority but more that they were telling him he doesn't matter anymore to them, that his opinions no longer matter.  Sure they are entitled to their opinions but then they turned around and literally told Oliver he had no right to do anything they didn't agree with. Or that he had no right to care about Thea and Laurel even if he's being overly protective and an ass.  The writing ignores that  TA kind of sucked at protecting the city without him. 

 

Oliver has EVERY right to come back to the people that he loves and to state his opinions. He needed time to adjust but they didn't give him a week o adapt. Yet when he decides you know what, they don't need me, goes on his journey they  give him shade for leaving again. So why  get mad at him for leaving when they don't need him and don't value his choices? 

 

I need a neck brace from the whiplash in this episode.

 

Just so disappointed with how all of this is playing out right now. 

 

The worst part is that when you set up TA to be against Oliver, and essentially you give Oliver no reason to think he's needed or wanted by TA and that he is making a bad bargain with the devil, then you've diminished Oliver Queen in his OWN show for no good reason and diminished other characters to do it.  But then you can't really not let the hero be wrong for very long...or you've destroyed the hero. And then you end up destroying the OG Team Arrow bonds that worked before.

 

This now leaves Oliver essentially not part of Team Arrow anymore.  And you know who else is not part of TA really? Laurel who was willing to ally with Malcolm against Brick. So now we have a table set for Laurel to be the ONLY one besides Thea that might possibly maybe understand and accept what Oliver is doing and that makes them allies and well you see where I'm going with that.... a basis for connection leading to Lauriver 2.0. Bleh.

 

Sigh.

[jay741982]

Okay so I've been sick so I had some more time to rewatch some episodes.  I decided to rewatch this to figure out if I hated it because of Laurel's unearned ascension, or Felicity and Sara character assassination to prop Laurel , but I realize I hate it because of how TA treated Oliver more and that it's setting up Lauriver Redoux.

 

Didn't they say it had only been a week since Oliver returned. How long had Oliver been gone? A month?  Oliver took a step back to his controlling ways but I think that is Oliver being triggered back to his coping skills post Island because he just went through another major trauma. He lost the fight to Ra's, he was either really most sincerely dead and resurrected or just mostly dead and was pushed off a mountain. He believes even more now that he can't be Oliver and the Arrow and he believes he has to to ally with the devil for reasons.

 

So in the whole week he's been back did NO ONE on TA bother to consider that Oliver just went through another trauma that might be triggering his PTSD all over again. IMO that is why Oliver is behaving with hypervigilance about Thea and Laurel, because he needs them to be safe. I'm not saying his behavior is great but it's understandable given his history. And his friend John, who saw Oliver post-Island with the PTSD and nightmares and controlling behavior, did not take 5 minutes to pull Oliver aside and say ..."look man, you have been through another major trauma. I think this might be affecting you and you are reverting back to those things that didn't entirely work for you before. But I get it. Either way, we had to move on and learn to cope without you. Now that you're back we need to regroup and for all of us to figure out how to have you back" .

 

Obviously,  it doesn't have to be that lengthy of a discussion but something anything to show me that TA specifically John would have some compassion and be the smartest guy in the room as usual...that John did not forget what Oliver went through before and he just might be fucked up again.

 

But instead we get the "you don't have a right" crap from Roy and Felicity.  WTF. That seems really overly harsh and mean.  It didn't make me side with them it made me think WTF? Why are you essentially saying to Oliver that he has no right to what he thinks needs to happen.

 

To me Amell played those scenes as though Oliver was shocked and hurt not because they were questioning his authority but more that they were telling him he doesn't matter anymore to them, that his opinions no longer matter.  Sure they are entitled to their opinions but then they turned around and literally told Oliver he had no right to do anything they didn't agree with. Or that he had no right to care about Thea and Laurel even if he's being overly protective and an ass.  The writing ignores that  TA kind of sucked at protecting the city without him. 

 

Oliver has EVERY right to come back to the people that he loves and to state his opinions. He needed time to adjust but they didn't give him a week o adapt. Yet when he decides you know what, they don't need me, goes on his journey they  give him shade for leaving again. So why  get mad at him for leaving when they don't need him and don't value his choices? 

 

I need a neck brace from the whiplash in this episode.

 

Just so disappointed with how all of this is playing out right now. 

 

The worst part is that when you set up TA to be against Oliver, and essentially you give Oliver no reason to think he's needed or wanted by TA and that he is making a bad bargain with the devil, then you've diminished Oliver Queen in his OWN show for no good reason and diminished other characters to do it.  But then you can't really not let the hero be wrong for very long...or you've destroyed the hero. And then you end up destroying the OG Team Arrow bonds that worked before.

 

This now leaves Oliver essentially not part of Team Arrow anymore.  And you know who else is not part of TA really? Laurel who was willing to ally with Malcolm against Brick. So now we have a table set for Laurel to be the ONLY one besides Thea that might possibly maybe understand and accept what Oliver is doing and that makes them allies and well you see where I'm going with that.... a basis for connection leading to Lauriver 2.0. Bleh.

 

Sigh.

Roy and Felicity were saying they get a voice too not Your Opinion doesn't matter. Oliver doesn't get to be the only one who makes decisions remember season 2 when they made decisions as a team? Oliver is working with a mass murderer who can easily stab him in the back and could kill him. Who got his sister to murder a former girfriend. So you're saying Felicity should be fine with a man she loves working with a Piece of shit who tried to kill him and will probably do it again. Diggle should be okay with it as well? And FUCK laurel she also was ultimately against too. Same with Roy.

[apinknightmare]

This ep didn't set up Lauriver 2.0 at all. If anything it put forth yet another obstacle for it-any basis for connection is gonna be gone once Laurel finds out that Malcolm is responsible for Sara's death, that Oliver knew that, and still teamed up with him.

Edited February 16, 2015 by apinknightmare