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S02.E04: XII

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Best line of the night:  "It must be awful being you."  

 

I can't believe how much I like Silver this season.  He's completely self-centered and has no scruples whatsoever but there is something quite refreshing about his ability to stay focused on his true goal.

 

Second best line of the night:  "Accuse me. Challenge me.  Fight me.  Or shut the fuck up about it." 

 

I do so enjoy Vane when he's in BAMF mode -- especially with his new quartermaster, who strikes me as a dangerous man.

 

Beyond that, this episode was something of a let-down from last week's barn-burner, particularly because of the deja-vu feeling engendered by being back at the same damn cliff-hanger ending.  But I enjoyed it.

 

The look that passed between Max and Jack in bed the "morning after" was wonderful.  The conversation between Max and Jack later about that situation just annoyed me.  Max continues to irritate me with her condescending attitude toward Jack.  And I'm still not buying the "relationship" between her and Anne.  I can't decide if it's the writing or the actresses but I'm just not seeing any real passion there.  I did, however, enjoy hearing Anne point out to Jack how many times she has backed him up and done terrible things on his behalf, even when she did not fully agree with them or understand them.  I'm glad she said that. It helps me understand a little better the complex relationship she has with Jack.

 

Last but not least, Billy's home!

Edited by WatchrTina
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Did Flint really just ignore Mr. Scott's always awesome advice? You are dead to me, Flint. Dead.

 

Ok, I admit, I got a little misty eyed when Billy asked for Gates.

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This weeks Black Sails was political campaigning pirate style.

 

Eleanor, wtf?!?! You go to Flint to try to convince him to back down and have some kind of conference with you two and Vane with a letter that is painting Flint as the villain and is obviously written by you. Did you honestly think Flint was going to agree to this? Also how are you surprised that Flint would do something like this? He just admitted to killing his best friend. You're surprised Horningold would give away the fort's secrets to get it back? Why wouldn't he? Then you go Ms. Barlow to ask for help again? Cause last time you two spoke it went so well. Now you may actually take advise from your father. Please say it isn't so. It was so sad seeing how childish she appeared this episode especially in the scene with Ms. Barlow and then sulking in her room drinking.

 

Last season really was not a fan of  Ms. Barlow and her storyline with Flint. However, this season has been a big improvement. Especially with the flashbacks with Hamilton.

 

Poor Billy. He gets away only to be found by Silver.

 

Flint needs to listen to Scott.

 

I'm guessing Vane doesn't know how to write. Either that or that is f'd up making Abigail write her own ransom note. I wonder how she and Lord Ash are going to play out this season.

 

Loving the dynamic with Max/Anne/Jack. They are all wary of each other but I think if they get to start trusting each other they will be quite the force. Also liked Max instructing the girl the difference between just f'n someone and really seducing someone I liked this especially after last week and this week basically admitting that she can't really stop going back to Max even though she knows Max has her own agenda. Also like that Max gets things done. Last week getting the ban lifted on Jack and now getting him a crew.

 

I enjoyed this week even though the plot slowed down because we got good character moments.

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I'm guessing Vane doesn't know how to write.

He probably can't read or write. That would also explain why Flint's messenger was reading the message to Vane instead of Vane reading it for himself.

Edited by WatchrTina

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This weeks Black Sails was political campaigning pirate style.

 

Eleanor, wtf?!?! You go to Flint to try to convince him to back down and have some kind of conference with you two and Vane with a letter that is painting Flint as the villain and is obviously written by you. Did you honestly think Flint was going to agree to this? Also how are you surprised that Flint would do something like this? He just admitted to killing his best friend. You're surprised Horningold would give away the fort's secrets to get it back? Why wouldn't he? Then you go Ms. Barlow to ask for help again? Cause last time you two spoke it went so well. Now you may actually take advise from your father. Please say it isn't so. It was so sad seeing how childish she appeared this episode especially in the scene with Ms. Barlow and then sulking in her room drinking.

 

Last season really was not a fan of  Ms. Barlow and her storyline with Flint. However, this season has been a big improvement. Especially with the flashbacks with Hamilton.

 

Poor Billy. He gets away only to be found by Silver.

 

Flint needs to listen to Scott.

 

I'm guessing Vane doesn't know how to write. Either that or that is f'd up making Abigail write her own ransom note. I wonder how she and Lord Ash are going to play out this season.

 

Loving the dynamic with Max/Anne/Jack. They are all wary of each other but I think if they get to start trusting each other they will be quite the force. Also liked Max instructing the girl the difference between just f'n someone and really seducing someone I liked this especially after last week and this week basically admitting that she can't really stop going back to Max even though she knows Max has her own agenda. Also like that Max gets things done. Last week getting the ban lifted on Jack and now getting him a crew.

 

I enjoyed this week even though the plot slowed down because we got good character moments.

 

 

Yes, right now the Max/Anne/Jack dynamic is easily the most entertaining and fascinating on the show.  Max and Silver are the most intriguing characters.  Maybe they work more because they seem freed from the Harlequin novel stylized I am a tender but strong man saving a tough on the outside, vulnerable on the inside damsel in distress silliness.  It is as if Silver and Max/Anne/Jack are here to actually provide people that are somewhat relatable. 

 

The Vane situation continues to worsen.  This writing and the performance is so bad that it detracts from the show.  The show seems interested in pushing itself out of a safe zone as with characters such as Silver and Max.  Yet Vane seems like a step backwards every time he shows up.  

 

I feel terrible for Hannah New.  The character of Eleanor is a joke this year.

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This episode showcased perfectly why Toby Stephens is perfect in this role. The lighter, more idealistic (if somewhat cynical even then) McGraw, who believed in Lord Thomas. He admired him and called him friend. Cut to the present, desperate, determined, possibly regretful 'Flint' who looks tortured by how he is perceived. It's a remarkable thing to watch.

This week as each before leaves me analyzing people's motivations and that too is a great feeling when watching a show. I can't just guess what's going to be the end result.

Vane making Abigail write the ransom note: Possibilities IMO, to keep her in line, fully realizing the gravity of her situation. Written in her own hand serves as a form of proof to any that recognize her handwriting (unless she is going with the men delivering the message-I have to rewatch that scene).

Perhaps he can't read or write, or he'd rather use that assumption to his advantage; make others underestimate his intelligence to outsmart them in the long run.

Eleanor will constantly struggle and always run the risk of being someone's enemy because she's simply never going to please everyone. She's trying to lead in an already uncivilized place and I think it's realistic to see her flounder when being pulled in so many directions. She also doesn't seem to want to betray Flint or Vane, but she will have to pick a direction. With her rancid father involved now, I think she's going to gain a lot of enemies. I actually like Eleanor and the way she looked up to Flint, so I worry that she might not make it through this transition.

The conversation between Max and Jack and the way she coached the other young prostitute showed her to be quite cold and calculating, IMO.

Tonight it left me feeling as though she really doesn't care for Anne, but wanted to win favor and push Jack out of the brothel, but Anne sounds like she is trying to guard herself. I honestly can't say I know who will be the odd man out in this scenario, but maybe Jack will come across Mary Read and introduce her to Anne and Max will have to move on.

Glad Billy is FINALLY back and I can't wait to hear how he went into the sea and just how he made it back to Nassau. Silver is definitely hiding Billy away because he believes Flint tossed him overboard. Right now he's hiding him to keep him from talking, but I bet he's also preparing to use Billy to help hang Flint if necessary. He's always got an angle.

I loved all the plotting, the conversations and the performances. I can't wait for next week.

Edited by Sharkatefonz
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Vane making Abigail write the ransom note: Possibilities IMO, to keep her in line, fully realizing the gravity of her situation. Written in her own hand serves as a form of proof to any that recognize her handwriting

Ooolh, I like that.  She hasn't seen her father in years but surely they have written to one another so her handwriting would serve as "proof of life."  I also like your speculation that Vane is hiding the fact that he CAN read (since we learned last season that it's pretty common for pirates to be "unlettered"). 

 

Did you notice that Abigail never actually answered the question that was put to her?  Vane wants to know if she and her father are "close".  She says "You want to know if he loves me?"  And then she says, "He will pay what you ask."  She tells Vane what he wants to know (will her father pay the ransom) but she evades the question of motive.  My assumptions was that she and her father are at odds with one another -- maybe she resents being left alone in London in a school all these years and has decided that it means her father doesn't really love her.  Maybe her own mother died giving birth to her and she's carried around the suspicion that he resents her for it. I'm just speculating now but the bottom line is that when she said "He will pay what you ask" I immediately thought it meant that he would do it out of duty, not out of love.

 

Glad to see that Abigail's cell does have a window.  Last week it looked like she was being kept in one of the black cells from Game of Thrones.  But I still don't understand why she was unconscious for the better part of two episodes.  I re-watched the prior episode just before this one with the closed captions on and when Vane first showed her to Eleanor he said "They sedated her."  Who is "they?"  Where the heck would Ned Low get pharmaceuticals like that in 1715 and why would he take them on a raid?  Or are they hinting that she's some kind of addict -- that Ned's crew found her unconscious AND found a stash of drugs and have been using them ever since to keep her sedated?  She clearly woke up long enough to meet Ned Low and develop a strong opinion of him.  Why sedate her again after that? Are we going to see her in the throes of opium withdrawal next? I hope these questions will be answered.

 

 

This episode showcased perfectly why Toby Stephens is perfect in this role. The lighter, more idealistic (if somewhat cynical even then) McGraw, who believed in Lord Thomas. He admired him and called him friend.

Did you notice that McGraw comes to Lord Thomas' defense only after Lord Thomas' father says that awful line to Lady Hamilton about keeping both her mouth and her legs closed?  It made me suspect that what drove him to speak was really a combination of his feelings of love/lust for her and wanting to defend "his woman" and guilt over his affair with her which may or may not have contributed to her bad reputation. I'm not at all convinced that he does believe in Lord Thomas.  McGraw completely disagreed with Lord Thomas' plan not two hours before that dinner.  Did he really change his mind?  Or did he change sides and attack Lord Thomas' father because the father had just insulted his secret lover?  I think it's the latter.  I think poor Lord Thomas thinks he's just witnessed a dramatic display of loyalty to HIM when what he really saw was a display of ego (nobody insults MY mistress in my presence!)  If I'm right, McGraw will get sucked into defending a plan of action that he doesn't really support. That scene (and the one in the carriage last episode) could mark the beginning of McGraw's descent into the miasma of conflicting motives that we see in the present time.

Edited by WatchrTina
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I haven't seen anything showing that Max is currently cold and detached towards Anne.   While Max is certainly manipulative, she does seem interested in Anne on more than a level preoccupied with getting ahead in business.  As for Jack, interesting they show he messes around with other women and that he is not monogamous with Anne.  I love Max's look when she sees him with the prostitute. 

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WatchrTina, great thoughts on Abigail! I think father and daughter might not be so close after all, and she either feels it's best to just tell the pirate he'll get paid, or as you said, he'll pay out of duty. I've wondered just how she was sedated. Drug use sounds possible, because I was curious how in all of that commotion we see her already unconscious. It of course could've been time lapse for drama, but seemed odd to me that we didn't hear her fighting back or just a scream or anything. I liked her answer about Lowe losing his head-

'Good.'

For a moment I thought that was a scene to ultimately connect her to Vane, but again this show keeps me guessing.

As for Flint's real motives---DAMN!!

That might be true. He might really have been motivated by his emotions surrounding Lady Hamilton all along. I'm also wary of Lord Ashe and Flint's history. I have a bad feeling he was the person who discovered the affair and won't much care for dealing with Flint now.

dohe, I'm glad you brought up Max again. I think the line that made me feel it was business was how she said that Anne had a conflict inside of her and Max almost had it resolved (paraphrasing) until Jack came in the room and started to compete. I just feel it's to gain control of the brothel because Jack right now is the owner with Anne. I believe Max is a partner as well, so if she breaks them up she can truly take over.

I get the feeling from Anne's words of powerlessness where it concerns Max, that Max would be the one in control in their relationship, and ultimately controlling the business. I also have a bad feeling that she helped get Jack and Anne back on the seas because in their absence she'd be running the business. A lot happens in Nassau VERY quickly, when gone for a day on the seas. Or she might ask Anne to stay with her because she knows she's struggling with refusing her, which could drive a wedge between Jack and Anne.

Her telling the prostitute (apologies for not remembering her name) all of the seduction tricks and secrets shared as we see Jack's face, made me wonder about the part about being locked in a closet.

Will that be addressed later? Maybe it's Max's history, or it was Anne's, and she's letting him know in that moment all that Anne has told her already.

The fact that she wants to break them apart has me disappointed in her character right now, but JPK is a wonderful actress.

As for Jack, I'm not so sure he'd take other women with Anne around. I remember that holy rollin' fit she had last season when Jack was in the tub, screaming that she believed he'd slept with Max. Which IMO was jealousy more so because of her buried feelings for Max.

In this episode, I thought Max said 'new recruits', and Jack was drinking with them with one of the brothel girls on his lap more so to keep the men interested in paying for time with the ladies. I took it as part of the technique. One gal sits on Jack's lap, the others come over and interest the men, and then perhaps they pay for some privacy.

That's the most interesting thing about Max and Jack for me. Each seems to anticipate the challenge of dealing with one another, but they might have underestimated Anne in all of this.

Have I said how much I love this show?

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[Max] telling the prostitute . . . all of the seduction tricks and secrets shared as we see Jack's face, made me wonder about the part about being locked in a closet. Will that be addressed later? Maybe it's Max's history, or it was Anne's, and she's letting him know in that moment all that Anne has told her already.

I wondered what was going through Jack's mind as he listens to Max coaching the new girl on the art of seduction.  (The camera kept focusing on him so it seemed clear to me that we were supposed to wonder about it.) I wondered if he was thinking back on past relationships and recollecting instances that sounded suspiciously like the tactics that Max was advocating.  But that didn't make sense to me because the vibe I get is that Anne & Jack have been faithful partners in life and in the bedroom for a very long time (since she was 13 he said).  And by "faithful" I mean faithful for a pirate, which probably includes the occasional dalliance on the side but no outside emotional involvements.

 

I like Sharkatefonz's speculation better.  When Max talked about "hiding in a closet" thought she was speaking figuratively.  But what if Anne did hide in a closet from an abusive figure (her father maybe?) and that's where she got the scars on her back?  If so, and if Max now knows the story, then yes, that was Max's way of telling Jack that she is using all these tactics (successfully) to seduce Anne.  When Anne's scars were revealed in the last episode it was clear to me that Max was surprised and Jack was not.  It wouldn't surprise me at all that Max took that as a challenge and used all her arts to get the story of those scars out of Anne so as to further cement the hold she (Max) has on Anne.

 

I like this interpretation because it corresponds to my gut feeling that Max doesn't really care about Anne and all her actions are self-interested.  Remember in a prior episode when Anne was telling Max how Jack had saved her and (paraphrasing now) "When someone gives you back your life, you owe them."  Anne gave Max back her life by killing all of Vane's remaining crew and Anne & Jack together have given Max the opportunity to be a Madam instead of a prostitute.  In Anne's mind, Max "owes" her life to Anne and Jack.  Max is behaving as though she believes that too -- getting the Vane's "black mark" lifted, helping to get a crew and ship for Anne & Jack.  But ultimately, I think Max is a player.  If she did not display gratitude towards Anne & Jack I think she'd lose her hold over Anne pretty damn quick and I think she knows it too.  I also think whoever said she wants Anne & Jack back on the water so that she can run the brothel her own way is on the right track.  She probably likes having them as partners (somewhere to safely "sell" the info she obtains from the patrons) but silent and distant partners is better than watchful partners.  She's also diversifying her risk with two lines of business (very MBA of her).  And she probably also believes that absence will act as a catalyst in her seduction of Anne (absence makes the heart grow fonder.)

 

All that being said,  the way that Max talks about Anne to Jack absolutely turns my stomach.  Both Anne and Jack know that Max is trying to ensnare Anne's emotions. They've talked about it.  I just don't understand why, given that information, Max is having any success in that effort.  I guess it's like when you see a good friend fall for someone you dislike and you just can't understand the attraction.

Edited by WatchrTina
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I believe that Max is acting in her own self-interest but I don't blame her.  That's really what Eleanor did to her last season.  Remember, Max wanted to run away with Eleanor and for them to be together, but Eleanor chose Nassau and not Max.  So Max is choosing Max, can't blame her at all.

 

I think when Max was talking to Jack, about someone hiding in the closet, she was telling Jack about something Ann had told her.  Max is the master seducer and she was letting Jack know that.  In reality, I don't think Max is doing anything sexually out of the ordinary, at least not for the 21st century, but I'm sure in the 18th century a blow job and rimming (what the young prostitute was doing with that captain, "I put my tongue in his ass and he'll tell me anything") were big deals.

 

I'm guessing Vane doesn't know how to write. Either that or that is f'd up making Abigail write her own ransom note. I wonder how she and Lord Ash are going to play out this season.

 

I had a feeling that Vane can't read or write and it makes sense.  If he was living on that island with that psychotic bald pirate; I doubt Vane was learning anything.  And when would he have time to learn to read and write, and who would teach him?  I like that Vane probably can't read or write, because at that time many people were illiterate.  I would find it false if Vane could read and write.  

 

Two unrelated things I noticed.  The actor playing Mrs. Barlow's husband, used to be in a show called "Whitechapel" (I watched it on BBCAmerica) and I believe this week's and last week's episode was written by Clark Johnson (I wonder if that's the same Clark Johnson from Homicide:  Life on the Street...who either directed or wrote the very first episode of "The Shield")

Edited by Neurochick

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Max continues to irritate me with her condescending attitude toward Jack.  And I'm still not buying the "relationship" between her and Anne.

 

Rackham is pretty smart and calculating. If Max is underestimating him, then she's going to pay for it in the long run. I think she's just kind of winding him up. I loved the look on his face when she told him he got 28 men *and* a ship. Even Ann took her hat off, so you know it was a big deal. 

 

Did Flint really just ignore Mr. Scott's always awesome advice? You are dead to me, Flint. Dead.

 

Flint is also smart, and he clearly realizes destroying the fort is going to fuck everything up for everyone. I think it's a feint. I think he's going to just show force. He's got the warship. Assailing the fortress is only going to degrade both of their capabilities and he needs the ship in tact if he's going to go back for the gold. 

 

I'm dying to know how the past relationship with the governor is going to play out now. 

 

Also liked Max instructing the girl the difference between just f'n someone and really seducing someone

 

Rackham was like, 'damn, men are stupid,' and then the girl says, 'oh yeah np,' after Max ended her monologue. 

 

Eleanor will constantly struggle and always run the risk of being someone's enemy because she's simply never going to please everyone. She's trying to lead in an already uncivilized place and I think it's realistic to see her flounder when being pulled in so many directions.

 

She shouldn't be trying to please everyone. Feared = respected on this island.

 

In reality, I don't think Max is doing anything sexually out of the ordinary, at least not for the 21st century, but I'm sure in the 18th century a blow job and rimming (what the young prostitute was doing with that captain, "I put my tongue in his ass and he'll tell me anything") were big deals.

 

Not much changes in 200 years. Just call me a canary.

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So true ganesh, about fear equalling respect on Nassau. Silver's monologue to her, the night she assembled the men to kill the crew members, expressed how much power she would hold. But the fallout and riot she faced shook her. Now with someone like Lowe threatening her and the absence of her true father figure (Mr Scott) she's making mistakes.

Add to that, IMO how she looked up to Flint as a heroic figure and ally, but now isn't sure he is who she thought. Things are spinning for her because she's discovering such a huge grey area.

After seeing how tortured Flint is over what the people think of him, I would like to see the parallel of Eleanor's reaction to what the people think of her.

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About Low's crew sedating Abigail -- Opium was popular in the eighteenth century. We saw Vane use it last season. I could easily see them keeping her drugged with it or another drug of that era. As for being unconscious when we first saw her, perhaps they knocked her out? Kept her drugged up after that.

 

Eleanor mentioned last week how hard Lord Ashe is on pirates. Yet he's offering to help Hamilton in the flashbacks to pardon them. Makes you wonder if he was sincere or scheming then. Or perhaps he got "exiled" from London to the Carolina's as punishment for his alliance with Hamilton and is now bitter about that.

 

I just don't like Max. Her scene coaching the prostitute also left me feeling like she is playing Anne. She's hoping to lure Anne into ousting Jack so she can rise up even more. And I just find it hard to swallow that sex with Max is apparently so great that smart people become blind and stupid afterwards. I need Anne to wake up and see what is happening here. And I'm all for Jack tossing Max into the sea first chance he gets. (They so better not pull some crap where Max turns out to be Mary Read.)

 

Flint -- I do believe he'd destroy Nassau just to get to Vane. I also don't think his motives for getting Vane out are about protecting the island and their way of life on it. I think he wants to seat himself as the big man at the table and Vane has to go before he can get to that spot. Eleanor, too, if she doesn't watch her back.

 

Still think Silver is a weasel.

 

I'm thrilled that Billy is back but with him comes alot of questions. How did he get away? Did he escape or was he broken? What did he tell the dude holding him, if anything? Has he been turned into a spy agaisnt Flint? If Gates were still alive, I don't think Billy would turn on the crew. But finding out Gates is dead (courtesty of Flint) could be a game changer for him.

Edited by Garnett7
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Glad you brought this up Garnett7: 'I think he wants to seat himself as the big man at the table and Vane has to go before he can get to that spot. Eleanor, too, if she doesn't watch her back.'

I have a bad feeling that we're seeing Eleanor so scattered because she is going to be the big death this year, and possibly by Flint's hand.

No proof, no spoiler info just a niggling feeling, after seeing so much Barlowe now, and the season 2 trailer showing Barlowe talking to Flint where she says they've come too far and also talks about really being a partner w him in running the island.

Barlowe's not going to be any leader with Eleanor around so...

I don't think she'd have any problem taking Eleanor's place.

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I don't mind Max, it's Eleanor I can't stand.  

 

I just don't like Max. Her scene coaching the prostitute also left me feeling like she is playing Anne. She's hoping to lure Anne into ousting Jack so she can rise up even more. And I just find it hard to swallow that sex with Max is apparently so great that smart people become blind and stupid afterwards. I need Anne to wake up and see what is happening here. And I'm all for Jack tossing Max into the sea first chance he gets. (They so better not pull some crap where Max turns out to be Mary Read.)

 

I don't think it's that sex with Max is that great, but I don't think that 200 years ago many women were giving blow ups, rimming and doing anal, so back then that stuff was probably out of this world to the men.

 

I don't get the Max hate.  Eleanor sure played her last year, so why shouldn't she  play others?  I don't get it. 

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I don't mind Max because I don't think she has any delusions about how and why she plays the game.  Eleanor, it seems, has no self awareness and is completely deluded about how much control she has.  I like most of the characters on this series, in spite of their flaws, but I simply cannot with Eleanor.  She over estimates herself every step of the way, and as much as disliked Ned Low, I was glad to see him bring her down a peg or two.  Admittedly though, I was glad to see him get a comeuppance too! 

 

It is so obvious she is playing both ends against the middle between Vane and Flint, and I hope one of them snuffs her out with a pillow to the face!

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So true ganesh, about fear equalling respect on Nassau.

 

We have the benefit of the actual mafia, and that's how the island should be run. I'm saying Elanor needs to invent that to actually run the island and actually execute a few people in order to put her foot down. She really should have killed Lowe herself in the middle of the bar a couple of episodes ago. Vane knows she's not going to kill him. So he does what he wants. I think that's what Flint was getting at. She needs to do something to establish herself. 

 

Her scene coaching the prostitute also left me feeling like she is playing Anne. She's hoping to lure Anne into ousting Jack so she can rise up even more.

 

She basically told Jack as much. Also, Anne knows that she's being played and asked Jack flat out to watch after her. Not for nothing, Max is a whore on a pirate island. She knows Jack and Anne are quite the team, and she knows that Jack is actually pretty clever. I think she's throwing her lot in with them to get the hell out. She got Jack a ship. She's going to want to be on that ship when/if Jack sails out. 

 

Flint -- I do believe he'd destroy Nassau just to get to Vane. I also don't think his motives for getting Vane out are about protecting the island and their way of life on it.

 

 

I really don't think so. There's no way I'm nearly single handedly stealing a spanish warship only to have it shelled by the fortress. Especially since he's specifically said the gold is effectively useless if he can't bring it back to the island. Flint wants Vane and Elanor to come to the table, as Elanor suggested, but on his terms. Neither Elanor nor Flint can stand Vane being the wild card that he's' been. Elanor can't do it, so Flint needs to do something about it. 

 

I don't think it's that sex with Max is that great, but I don't think that 200 years ago many women were giving blow ups, rimming and doing anal, so back then that stuff was probably out of this world to the men.

 

No doubt, but I don't think much has changed. 

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No doubt sex hasn't changed since the 17th century, but I think attitudes regarding sex being something not just for having children, but for pleasure, have changed.  

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Eleanor sure played her last year, so why shouldn't she  play others?  I don't get it.

 

How did Eleanor play Max? They shagged a few times, of which Eleanor paid the brothel owner to do. Max let herself believe it was more than what it was. Eleanor never promised her anything or lead her to believe they'd run off together. Max took it all on herself to make that plan. If she knew Eleanor at all, she'd have known that Eleanor is never willingly going to give up Nassau. I'm not saying Eleanor didn't care for Max. I believe she did. Whether it was love or not, I guess we'll see. But she clearly wanted Nassau more and never pretended otherwise so I don't see that as "playing" Max.

 

And don't misunderstand me, I don't really like Eleanor either. I agree with other's complains about her. She definitely over estimated her power. Without Daddy pulling the strings, she's now realizing how little control she has. She often comes across like a kid having a temper tantrum.

 

 

There's no way I'm nearly single handedly stealing a spanish warship only to have it shelled by the fortress. Especially since he's specifically said the gold is effectively useless if he can't bring it back to the island.

 

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the Man Of War's guns are more powerful than the fort's and reach further. The fort's cannons isn't likely to do much, if any, damage at this range to the warship. So Flint can sit at this distance and safely bomb the hell out of the fort. Which gets Vane out but also destroys the island's only defense system. If Flint's interest was only about Nassau then he'd chose the fort over Vane. But, since I suspect he really wants to establish himself as the head man in charge, getting Vane out now trumps the fort.

Edited by Garnett7

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How did Eleanor play Max? They shagged a few times, of which Eleanor paid the brothel owner to do. Max let herself believe it was more than what it was. Eleanor never promised her anything or lead her to believe they'd run off together.

 

 

That sounds like gaslight speak: "I never really loved you, even though I didn't want you sleeping with anybody else, and I never said we'd have a life together, though when you brought it up, I never corrected you."  Eleanor's problem is she never takes a stand, never says what she means, to me she comes off as wishy washy.

 

Even though we never saw Eleanor get down on one knee and ask Max to marry her; it was insinuated that Max never had actual sex with anybody but Eleanor,  she only gave hand jobs to men.  Maybe Eleanor didn't think it was serious, but Max certainly did.  

Edited by Neurochick
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Oh yeah, sex attitudes have changed, but I just wanted to quote rimming and anal. Good times.

 

But, since I suspect he really wants to establish himself as the head man in charge, getting Vane out now trumps the fort.

 

Flint's whole point is that he needs to be able to bring the gold back to the island. There's nowhere else to take it. Shelling the fortress undermines having a place to bring to bring it. I think Flint wants to be the one that forces Vane and Elanor to the table. He is correct in pointing out that Vane isn't really a team player when it comes to the enterprise of the island as a pirate commercial hub.

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Different variations in sex, as mentioned above, exist since sex exists. They were perhaps condemned by religions and morals, by they existed.

 

Sex for pleasure has existed since forever. In the wedlock and outside it. Condoms are at least 4 centuries old and we can go back to ancient Egypt, Greece and Roman Empire for pregnancy prevention (thus demonstrating that sex was for pleasure).

 

---

I finally watched the episode. I'm sorry if I'm not going to quote other posters, I wrote this while watching the episode.

 

I hadn't noticed before that Rupert Penry-Jones is in the opening credits. Yay, him for all season (or at least most of it) plus Toby Stephens, I'm a happy woman!

 

For the first time I realized what a "granite expression" is, by watching Fint's face after Silvers "It must be awful being you".

 

Love in an English aristocrat 18th century family seems unlikely to me. Lors Ashe could pay the ransom for convenience (as someone else said above), but I hardly believe he would pay it for love for his daughter.

As for Vane being an illetterate, it's possible, but shouldn't a captain be able to read charts and maps? 

 

How delusional is Max thinking that Anne would choose her over Jack?

Watching Max instruct the new recruit, I got the impression that Jack understood how Maw is good to seducing people and how Anne have been seduced.

 

A lieutenant ordering a Lord to leave his house? That is something I hardly believe. Apparently Lord Hamilton too.

 

I don't know if this has been mentioned in other threads, but I find interesting that many characters are historical figures, but in name only, as most of the facts have been changed (Lord Hamilton junior was sent to Naples, not the Carribbeans. He indeed married Catherine Barlowe, but the marriage lasted 24 years, until her death).

 

On a mundane note, I finally understood what would happen to my hair if I didn't go to the hairdresser once in awhile: I have the same curly hair as Luke Arnold, just shorter and with more ringlets!

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I feel I have to wade in the shallow end of the pirate-infested bay and state how much I appreciate the show for giving me Vane in totally a-historical tight Henley tee shirt, as well as some full frontal Rackham. Yay!

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That sounds like gaslight speak: "I never really loved you, even though I didn't want you sleeping with anybody else, and I never said we'd have a life together, though when you brought it up, I never corrected you."  Eleanor's problem is she never takes a stand, never says what she means, to me she comes off as wishy washy.

 

Even though we never saw Eleanor get down on one knee and ask Max to marry her; it was insinuated that Max never had actual sex with anybody but Eleanor,  she only gave hand jobs to men.  Maybe Eleanor didn't think it was serious, but Max certainly did.

 

Or one could argue that Eleanor isn't the type who likes to "share her toys" so she paid to keep Max to herself. I completely agree that she's a wishy-washy person. Another thing I dislike about her. But I really didn't see her and Max shagging a few times as her leading Max on. I do believe Eleanor cared for Max. She might have continued their relationship on for awhile had Max not planned for them to run off together (a plan Eleanor knew nothing about nor wanted).. But she never once implied that she would chose Max (or Vane or anyone) over controlling Nassau. I expect her to double cross Vane any day now if it boosts her power. She's already playing both sides with him and Flint.

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Eleanor is a figurehead who doesn't really have any power - that was really clear when she couldn't protect herself against Lowe (ineffectual bodyguard, etc).  She needs to convince whoever she wants to back her why it's a good idea to keep her there - she had Flint backing her, but now he's questioning her.  

 

I had thought maybe she was playing Vane as part of working with Flint and it's too bad that's not the case; after being so tight with Flint for an apparently long time, it does make her look really - not smart.  

 

 

But she never once implied that she would chose Max (or Vane or anyone) over controlling Nassau. I expect her to double cross Vane any day now if it boosts her power. She's already playing both sides with him and Flint.

She is but not very well.  Flint doesn't trust her fully and Vane seems to be aware she would cross him.  She has never been shown to have an attachment to anyone or anything except her position.  Which is fine; she just really hasn't been fleshed out too much other than that.  Plus the actress is so young looking, the tough leader doesn't always work.

 

 

Watching Max instruct the new recruit, I got the impression that Jack understood how Maw is good to seducing people and how Anne have been seduced.

This was my impression as well.  I was glad when Anne addressed it by asking Jack to watch her back. She also woke up with him rather than Max so they are still connected I guess (or maybe she likes sleeping on a flat chest better, heh).  Anyway, I would rather watch people try to maneuver around each other, being aware of what the other is up to, then watch someone act like a sap.  I find Max an interesting character for the same reason; how she is going to set herself up.  

 

 

I don't get the Max hate.  Eleanor sure played her last year, so why shouldn't she  play others?  I don't get it.

I don't hate Max; I think she's a good character for the show.  I mean, I wouldn't want to hang out with her, but none of the characters are people I would want to hang out with in real life - they're mainly all liars, and/or thieves and/or murderers.  They make an interesting show though.

 

 

I think poor Lord Thomas thinks he's just witnessed a dramatic display of loyalty to HIM when what he really saw was a display of ego (nobody insults MY mistress in my presence!)  If I'm right, McGraw will get sucked into defending a plan of action that he doesn't really support.

I think you're probably right and I can't wait to see how it all plays out.  Really nice to screw your friend's wife.  I mean, I like the ruthless Flint character now, but the romance with Lady Thomas does nothing for me - though truthfully, none of them on this show do, they are all staged (IMO) as power grabs/manipulations with no feeling, even the lust comes across as cold.

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Sex for pleasure has existed since forever. In the wedlock and outside it. Condoms are at least 4 centuries old and we can go back to ancient Egypt, Greece and Roman Empire for pregnancy prevention (thus demonstrating that sex was for pleasure).

We can do better than that - sex for pleasure was old hat at least by the 4th century BC, the Kama Sutra is clear on that.  And as Alex points out, we've long since evolved to have lots of sex and very few babies so that's well back to the pleistocene, like as not.

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I'm not a fan of that Max, Anne, Jack  arc.  It's fodder.  In addition, the arc adds repetitive motivation, sex, love.  We already see that motivation in Flint's flashbacks, in Eleanor's arc, both main characters directly related to the main plot of saving the colony.  The Max arc as a side story is an overkill and drags the show down.  There has to be more and better, and this arc is not delivering.

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I'm highly doubtful that Jack et al. is a side arc. If Jack does in fact get that ship and starts a crew, he's going to be a big factor on the island. The guy is smart, and I think he'll be a good captain. In fact, I'll go so far as to say he helps Flint get the gold. He was Vane's q-master. If anyone can deal with Vane or know what he's thinking, it's Jack. 

 

Jack doesn't strike me as one of those people that needs to be #1. Having a ship and being at the table I think is enough for him. 

 

I don't know anything about the actual history of these people either. I didn't even know that this was a prequel to Treasure Island until it was said here. 

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I did not see any redundancy.  Jack was exiled from Vane's crew, took control of the brothel, and bounced back to captain status with his own ship in a relatively short amount of time.  It was completely different storyline than the rest and it added to the cohesive whole.

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I did not see any redundancy.  Jack was exiled from Vane's crew, took control of the brothel, and bounced back to captain status with his own ship in a relatively short amount of time.  It was completely different storyline than the rest and it added to the cohesive whole.

The redundancy is the sexual motivation. it's too much of that.  We're left with three arcs, Flint, Eleanor, and MaxAnneJack, and all three are doing things for sex/love reasons.

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They live in a world where they could literally die before the sun sets. What else is there, really? Love has been the motivation for great drama since the first humans sat around the fire thousands of years ago. 

Edited by ganesh
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I was just watching a recent episode of Downton Abbey, which is of course set 200 years later than Black Sails, but certain matters of etiquette among the titled class have not changed that much.  Specifically, when someone leaves a house (or a the table) you take your leave of the host and, in particular, the hostess.  When a misbehaving dinner guest is asked to leave the table on Downton Abbey he still says goodbye to the lady of the house.  When Lord Thomas' awful father is dismissed from the table by Flint, he takes his leave saying "Gentlemen" and specifically does not acknowledge his daughter-in-law. Yet another subtle insult.

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Is the first episode that we have full frontal? If someone could give me a list of other episodes that I might have missed...

I liked all the politics and the continuation of the backstory of flint and mrs barlow.

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Is the first episode that we have full frontal? If someone could give me a list of other episodes that I might have missed...

IIRC, Season 1 Episode 7 had Toby Schmitz's Rackham nude and tied to a bed, and later had a naked mud-covered Zach McGowan (Vane) take down the men who buried him alive.

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I've just started watching this show and I love Flint and his crew, but a lot of the Nassau characters bore me a bit. I find Jack funny but Anne and Max are blah to me and I don't care about their entanglements. Eleanour will always put herself first so she's no good ally to anyone. Vane I like only because his motives are always so simple, at least one who isn't always simultaneously following six different agendas.

I'm up to this episode (I know there's a twist coming with Flint/Thomas/Miranda, that one I want to see!) and I don't quite know if I want to finish the show...I like Flint and things can't go well for him, can they?

Spoiler

he's doomed, just like Silver is automatically saved because we know what becomes of them, and Nassau. Toby Stephens has really sold me on the tragedy of Flint and I don't know if I want to watch his downfall.

Edited by kariyaki · Reason: Added spoiler tags

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