The Jane Austen Film & TV Club (P&P and More!)

[WendyCR72]

Because someone suggested this as a forum, and it was decided it should go here. So, to @amensisterfriend, this is for you! You have great taste in P&P adaptions.  :-)

[legaleagle53]

Ah, yes, the version that first introduced the world to the hotness that is Colin Firth!  :)

[WendyCR72]

The lake scene may have not been canon, but...yummy.

[legaleagle53]

I also liked Jennifer Ehle's sharp-tongued Elizabeth Bennett. The lady definitely did not suffer pompous fools gladly -- and she took no prisoners, either.  My favorite scene to this day is the scene where she finally told Lady Catherine off (ever so politely) and practically threw her off the property.

 

She also introduced me to the use of the word "insufferable" as the ultimate expression of contempt.

[hendersonrocks]

This miniseries will always hold a special place in my heart. As a 22-year old new teacher in a completely new town--and state, actually--the grande dame of the community took me under her wing after we bonded over it!

 

The biggest struggle I've always had with this version--from the first time I saw it in the late-90s til today--is Jane. She just doesn't, I don't know, feel like/seem like JANE BENNET! to me.

 

Is it heretical to love both this one and the Keira Knightley/Matthew Macfadyen one? Because I do. They each scratch a different itch!

 

[Ohwell]

Was Jane Bennett supposed to be the "pretty" one of the sisters?  Because in this version I didn't think the actress was that attractive.  She had wonky eyes and a big neck.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Ohwell

[jah1986]

Yes, Jane was supposed to be "the pretty one" but I don't think there's ever been a version of P&P where Jane was a great beauty or even prettier than Lizzie.

 

I too love this version. Jennifer Ehle is the Lizzie that all other Lizzie's have to compare to in my mind. Even the wonderful Anna Maxwell Martin seems a little off as Lizzie in Death Comes to Pemberley, I guess because she's not Jennifer Ehle.

[DkNNy79]

Yes, Jane was supposed to be "the pretty one" but I don't think there's ever been a version of P&P where Jane was a great beauty or even prettier than Lizzie.

 

I too love this version. Jennifer Ehle is the Lizzie that all other Lizzie's have to compare to in my mind. Even the wonderful Anna Maxwell Martin seems a little off as Lizzie in Death Comes to Pemberley, I guess because she's not Jennifer Ehle.

Rosamund Pike as Jane in the Keira Knightley version is probably the prettiest Jane out of all the versions.  I think beauty wise they are comparable.  I guess Keira is generally considered prettier, but there's something about her mouth that is weird to me.

 

Even though Jane is supposed to be the pretty one, she always came off as such a boring person.  Elizabeth is smart and witty.  I would rather be the less attractive sibling if it meant I was smarter and wittier.

 

I enjoy the KK/MM version, but I still prefer the 95 version.  Oh, Colin Firth.  I think this version started my obsession with British actors, especially in period pieces.  Jennifer Ehle is my favorite Lizzie. 

 

I'm a big Austen fan.  Can this be our Austen discussion thread?  How would you rate your Austen heroes?

 

1) Captain Wentworth (Rupert Penry-Jones...SWOON)

2) Henry Tilney

3) Colonel Brandon

4) Mr. Darcy

5) Mr. Knightley

 

Although 2-4 probably changes depending on the mood I'm in.

Edited February 11, 2015 by DkNNy79

[Ohwell]

I really have a soft spot in my heart for Col. Brandon.

[twoods]

Don't forget Edmund Bertram! Or maybe it's more my love for Johnny Lee Miller.

This thread makes me wish I had time to watch the miniseries all over again. I do agree that I prefer the Jane in the KK adaptation (I also liked that movie a lot) but Elizabeth was awesome in this one. Plus, it introduced me to Colin Firth!

[AstaCharles]

The first time I watched the 1995 version was about two years ago. I thought there was a lot of humor in Firth's Darcy which I loved.

[Athena]

Was Jane Bennett supposed to be the "pretty" one of the sisters?  Because in this version I didn't think the actress was that attractive.  She had wonky eyes and a big neck.

 

At first, I didn't think that Susannah Harker's Jane was prettier than Ehle, but in retrospect and having seen Harker in the original House of Cards, I think she has lovely face. Upon rewatch, I noticed she has the kind of Renaissance/Classical look that was very in vogue those days and not so much now. She has that old world sort of beauty. Her profile and long necks were in fashion at the time. Compare her face to paintings at the time and earlier and I can see why Harker was cast. Jane's attractiveness was in large part due to her nature as well.

 

I've seen a lot of Austen adaptations (over 20). Of P&P, I've seen at least five and Ehle is the only one with "the eyes" which Darcy is attracted to.

[Ohwell]

It's not that her neck was long although I understand having a long neck at that time was considered desirable.  It's just that it's thick/wide for a female, which is what I meant by "big."  She did have a certain serenity about her though, so I'll give her that. 

[Crs97]

This is by far the best representation of Pride and Prejudice that I've seen.  Jennifer and Colin were the perfect match and perfectly cast in their roles.  One of my favorite scenes (besides the lake scene) is when they come upon each other after she walked to see sick Jane.  When she essentially rolls her eyes after he asks, "On foot?" and she answers, "As you see" and then he really recognizes her for the first time as someone worth knowing . . . swoon.  I also love the lake scene as a great reason for his leaving her abruptly and then returning.  Am I the only one who didn't notice his physique under the shirt when I first saw it?  Frankly, my favorite part of the whole thing is watching him run down the stairs to catch her.

 

There are a few glitches in the screenplay.  After waiting so long to see them finally get together, we should have been given their playful scene before the wedding.  They also skipped the most important part of the book when Elizabeth sees Pemberley.  Yes, she is tempted by its beauty and the possibility of being its mistress and starts to question her decision until she remembers that her family would be lost to her.  Then she is resolved she chose correctly.  No film version has made that clear to my satisfaction, and I end up arguing with cynical viewers who haven't read the book and tell me she was a gold digger.  It doesn't end well.

 

The KK/MM movie I have to treat as a separate entity that just happens to resemble the book because any hint of it being a faithful adaptation of the novel causes me to start twitching.  Yes, his walking in the mist with the sunrise behind him and the music swelling is gorgeous, but I see Jane Austen shaking her head that Lizzie is proposed to in her nightgown.  I think Hollywood reads Jane Austen, but films the Bronte sisters.

[legaleagle53]

This is by far the best representation of Pride and Prejudice that I've seen.  Jennifer and Colin were the perfect match and perfectly cast in their roles.  One of my favorite scenes (besides the lake scene) is when they come upon each other after she walked to see sick Jane.  When she essentially rolls her eyes after he asks, "On foot?" and she answers, "As you see" and then he really recognizes her for the first time as someone worth knowing . . . swoon.  I also love the lake scene as a great reason for his leaving her abruptly and then returning.  Am I the only one who didn't notice his physique under the shirt when I first saw it?  Frankly, my favorite part of the whole thing is watching him run down the stairs to catch her.

 

There are a few glitches in the screenplay.  After waiting so long to see them finally get together, we should have been given their playful scene before the wedding.  They also skipped the most important part of the book when Elizabeth sees Pemberley.  Yes, she is tempted by its beauty and the possibility of being its mistress and starts to question her decision until she remembers that her family would be lost to her.  Then she is resolved she chose correctly.  No film version has made that clear to my satisfaction, and I end up arguing with cynical viewers who haven't read the book and tell me she was a gold digger.  It doesn't end well.

 

Tell the cynics that it's really not fair to call Elizabeth a gold digger.  She was simply being practical and realistic in accordance with the social and cultural mindset of the time.

 

In Jane Austen's day, marriage was quite literally seen as a practical social contract, not unlike a mercenary business deal.   Women by law couldn't own or inherit property or wealth of their own and had few, if any, respectable opportunities to earn an independent living, so marriage was seen as their only means of support and social advancement.  For men, it was about acquiring and maintaining social standing.  His wife had two main duties:  one was to preserve the family line and fortune by producing a viable male heir as soon as possible, and the other was to advance her husband's opportunities for advancement through her own familial connections and by making him look good in public. Thus, marriage was never so much a romantic notion as it was a practical one.  The idea of simply marrying for love, while a nice concept in theory, was largely considered impractical and  therefore irrelevant.

Edited February 16, 2015 by legaleagle53

[GHScorpiosRule]

This, by far, is the best adaptation of Pride & Prejudice, plus, as others have stated, also introduced me to the yummilicious Colin Firth.

 

But what I take away the most from this? Is Lizzie's mother's "Mr. Bennet, you are SO VEXING!"

 

Will not lie, I used vexing in any and all ways I could for at least a year after I watched this mini-series the first time.

[DkNNy79]

I felt bad for Mr. Bennett.  If I was married to that annoying woman, I would hide out in the library all day as well.

[WendyCR72]

I felt bad for Mr. Bennett.  If I was married to that annoying woman, I would hide out in the library all day as well.

 

I felt bad for him, but at the same time, while she would always be a silly grown-up version of Lydia (probably why Lydia was her favorite), maybe she wouldn't always be so shrill if Mr. Bennet cared about having his daughters married off and financially secure?

 

There is no doubt Mrs. Bennet was annoying, but I sort of saw her POV. They had no sons and marriage meant their daughters would be provided for. And Mr. Bennet didn't seem to give a crap and chose to ignore everything and remain in his library. So, while I am not a Mrs. Bennet apologist and did like this Mr. Bennet, I could see the other side of things.

 

Except Mrs. Bennet wanting to shackle Lizzie to Mr. Collins. Just no. I'm sure - if there were no Mr. Darcy - there were other less odious men to go for. Glad Lizzie stood up for herself there! (And I always wondered what Mary saw in him.)

[legaleagle53]

I felt bad for him, but at the same time, while she would always be a silly grown-up version of Lydia (probably why Lydia was her favorite), maybe she wouldn't always be so shrill if Mr. Bennet cared about having his daughters married off and financially secure?

 

There is no doubt Mrs. Bennet was annoying, but I sort of saw her POV. They had no sons and marriage meant their daughters would be provided for. And Mr. Bennet didn't seem to give a crap and chose to ignore everything and remain in his library. So, while I am not a Mrs. Bennet apologist and did like this Mr. Bennet, I could see the other side of things.

 

Except Mrs. Bennet wanting to shackle Lizzie to Mr. Collins. Just no. I'm sure - if there were no Mr. Darcy - there were other less odious men to go for. Glad Lizzie stood up for herself there! (And I always wondered what Mary saw in him.)

 

I still love how Lizzie appealed to her father for help in getting out of that one.  Mrs. Bennett had just told Lizzie that Lizzie would be dead to her if she did not marry the repulsive Mr. Collins.  Mr. Bennett, knowing full well that Lizzie couldn't stand the man, simply said (with a rather devilish twinkle in his eye), "Well, Lizzie, it seems that today you must lose one of your parents, for you will not see your mother again if you do not agree to marry Mr. Collins -- and you will not see your father again if you do!"

 

Talk about a "Hell, yeah!" moment!

[jah1986]

I always thought Mary would have been a good match for Mr. Collins. I especially felt sorry for Mary in the KK version.

[Inquisitionist]

I highly recommend the book The Making of Pride and Prejudice, which you can find for sale online at amazon, ebay, etc.  Lots of luscious details about casting, location scouting, set decoration, music, costume design, and so on.  I loved it.

 

There is also a 26-minute documentary available on youtube, which I am about to start watching!

[WendyCR72]

If you can find the 10th Anniversary edition of P&P '95 on DVD, the book comes included. I know for a fact since I bought the set when it first was released. I upgraded to Blu-Ray since then but have kept that set.

 

Oooh, wait. Found one at Amazon for $40, so if you're inclined, grab it while you can! And one more here also at Amazon, at a cheaper price, for $23.73.

[Crs97]

Okay, here is my secret:  Go to abebooks.com and type the title in there.  Be sure and read the book's condition, but I have only been disappointed once in my dealings on that site and it was because I hadn't taken that particular book's warnings as seriously as they wanted me to.  I am finding first editions of the book at around $20 and good to very good paperbacks at around $3-4 with free shipping!

[psychoticstate]

I love this miniseries!  It is what introduced me to Jane Austen and a whole new world of literature.  Oh yes, and Colin Firth.

 

Except Mrs. Bennet wanting to shackle Lizzie to Mr. Collins.

 

 

I am loathe to defend Mrs. Bennet but she would have been pleased had Mr. Collins married any of the Bennet girls, save Jane.  It was self-preservation from her point of view as well as solving the problem of getting her daughters married off and as well as possible.  Had one of her girls married Mr. Collins, Mrs. Bennet would never have to leave Longbourne, even upon Mr. Bennet's death, and neither would any unmarried Bennet girls.  Their place in society and in their home would be secure.

 

So I do understand her pushing Lizzie (although I don't agree.)  And while she did tell Mrs. Phillips (I believe?) that Jane being matched with Bingley would lead to the other Bennet girls being put in the paths of rich men, what was the likelihood that each would find an only or elder son with the leisure to marry whom he chose?  None of the girls came with substantial dowries and people like Caroline Bingley and Louisa Hurst considered the Bennet family and their relations significantly below themselves. 

[proserpina65]

1) Captain Wentworth (Rupert Penry-Jones...SWOON)

2) Henry Tilney

3) Colonel Brandon

4) Mr. Darcy

5) Mr. Knightley

For me, it's Col. Brandon (as portrayed by Alan Rickman, please), Capt. Wentworth (but not Rupert Penry-Jones, who looked like he'd never spent a day at sea in his life), Mr. Knightley (the divine Jeremy Northam), then far, far behind, Mr. Darcy.  Can't really judge Henry Tilney because I've never read Northanger Abbey and the one version I've seen made him kind of a non-entity.

[ruby24]

I'm about to commit heresy here by saying when I finally sat down to watch this recently, I didn't take much to it. My aunt has loved it for years ever since it came out and had been pushing it on me, but I gotta say, although faithful to the book, I just found it a bit dry.

 

I've loved the book since high school, and I was about 18 when the Keira Knightley one came out, so I guess to me that one just became "my" Pride & Prejudice (in the movies). But it's definitely still my favorite- I never care too much about liberties taken in adaptations, because to me a movie really has to work on its own level, and the Joe Wright one is just SO cinematic and gorgeous, and the music is swoony, and I love all the acting, etc.

 

Although I didn't dislike this one, I just didn't fall in love with it.

[WendyCR72]

I modified the thread title a bit since it seems inevitable other adaptions of P&P would also get some discussion. But if anyone has suggestions for a better title here, I'm open to it! I was going to make it just an Austen thread but couldn't think of a title.

 

So suggestions and ideas are most welcome! That is, if you (universally!) think the thread should be expanded beyond P&P.

[editorgrrl]

The Jane Austen Film & TV Club

[WendyCR72]

The Jane Austen Film & TV Club

 

Oh, I like! And as such, think it is broad enough to cover everything.  :-)  Let me edit.

[methodwriter85]

Have any of you guys ever seen the web T.V. series The Lizzie Bennett Diaries and Emma Approved? They both re-imagine their respective books into the modern-day, told through a series of v-logs. Lizzie Bennett is now a 24-year old grad student living somewhere in the U.S. (probably California), still living at home with her sisters and facing a mountain of student loan debt and trying to figure out her life. In Emma Approved, Emma Woodhouse is a lifestyle guru living in Los Angeles, who's decided to film v-logs to document her greatness at bettering other people's lives. They both start off slow, but get really good towards the end. You kinda have to deal with the cheap amateur aspects of it, but it's still worth a watch.

 

Also, does anyone remember Lost In Austen? It tells the story of a woman who finds herself switching places with Lizzie Bennett and living out the story, while trying to keep it on track and failing miserably. There was supposed to be a U.S. remake but it never happened...probably for the best.

[Athena]

Also, does anyone remember Lost In Austen? It tells the story of a woman who finds herself switching places with Lizzie Bennett and living out the story, while trying to keep it on track and failing miserably. There was supposed to be a U.S. remake but it never happened...probably for the best.

 

Lost in Austen was so over the top. It was like crack. I really enjoyed it because it was just pure fun. I think it's the kind of thing Austen fans either love or hate because it really screws up people's ideas of their favourite P&P characters. On the other hand, it just seemed pure fluff and silliness to me. I liked it.

 

I liked Lizzie Bennet diaries. I find Emma Approved too slow for me though they have a cute Knightley.

 

I've seen over 20 Austen adaptations or re-imaginations. There are usually some positives about each one, but some of them were hard to get through.

[methodwriter85]

I liked Lizzie Bennet diaries. I find Emma Approved too slow for me though they have a cute Knightley.

 

I've seen over 20 Austen adaptations or re-imaginations. There are usually some positives about each one, but some of them were hard to get through.

 

I think the Lizzie Bennett Diaries was more tightly plotted and better acted...Emma Approved doesn't really take off until the storyline with Senator Elton. I think it's better to binge-watch Emma Approved- the first fifteen or so episodes kind of bore me. I also think it took awhile for Johanna Sotomura to get comfortable with her character, but she improved a LOT over the series.

 

There's a 1972 BBC version of Emma...it's kind of stiff in terms of the cinematography, but it's not bad. The Jane Fairfax here had crazy eyes to the max, though.

Edited March 22, 2015 by methodwriter85

[Rick Kitchen]

In the series finale of "Glee", it was revealed (the last part of the show is set five years in the future) that Rachel has won a Tony for "Jane Austen Sings".

 

I enjoyed the Bollywood version, Bride and Prejudice, set in India.  With "Lalita Bakshi" and the American rich man, "Will Darcy".

 

 

And it can't be a Bollywood film without a big musical dance number

 

[Athena]

I think the Lizzie Bennett Diaries was more tightly plotted and better acted...Emma Approved doesn't really take off until the storyline with Senator Elton. I think it's better to binge-watch Emma Approved- the first fifteen or so episodes kind of bore me. I also think it took awhile for Johanna Sotomura to get comfortable with her character, but she improved a LOT over the series.

 

There's a 1972 BBC version of Emma...it's kind of stiff in terms of the cinematography, but it's not bad. The Jane Fairfax here had crazy eyes to the max, though.

 

Agreed. Emma is the longest Austen work and they've stretched it out for the web series too. I'll definitely binge it when it is over because I've been doing little snippets here and there.

 

I haven't seen the 1972 version, but my favourite Emma is the 2006 BBC one with Romola and JLM.

[DkNNy79]

In the series finale of "Glee", it was revealed (the last part of the show is set five years in the future) that Rachel has won a Tony for "Jane Austen Sings".

 

I enjoyed the Bollywood version, Bride and Prejudice, set in India.  With "Lalita Bakshi" and the American rich man, "Will Darcy".

 

 

And it can't be a Bollywood film without a big musical dance number

 

I have this version at home.  I really enjoy it.  Damn, but Ashirwara Rai (spelling is 100% wrong) has got to be the prettiest "Lizzie" ever, even with the 20 pounds she gained for the role.

 

I like all things Jane Austen: so I enjoyed "Lost in Austen."  I think there was also a movie called the "Jane Austen Book Club" with Maria Bello?

[proserpina65]

The Jane Austen Film & TV Club

When I first read the new title, my brain saw "The Jane Austen Fight Club", which would be awesome, but very mannerly.

I have this version at home.  I really enjoy it.  Damn, but Ashirwara Rai (spelling is 100% wrong) has got to be the prettiest "Lizzie" ever, even with the 20 pounds she gained for the role.

 

Indeed she is.  And who can hate on a movie that has Naveen Andrews as the Indian MC Hammer? lol

[Athena]

When I first read the new title, my brain saw "The Jane Austen Fight Club", which would be awesome, but very mannerly.

 

[psychoticstate]

Have any of you guys ever seen the web T.V. series The Lizzie Bennett Diaries and Emma Approved? They both re-imagine their respective books into the modern-day, told through a series of v-logs. Lizzie Bennett is now a 24-year old grad student living somewhere in the U.S. (probably California), still living at home with her sisters and facing a mountain of student loan debt and trying to figure out her life. In Emma Approved, Emma Woodhouse is a lifestyle guru living in Los Angeles, who's decided to film v-logs to document her greatness at bettering other people's lives. They both start off slow, but get really good towards the end. You kinda have to deal with the cheap amateur aspects of it, but it's still worth a watch.

 

Also, does anyone remember Lost In Austen? It tells the story of a woman who finds herself switching places with Lizzie Bennett and living out the story, while trying to keep it on track and failing miserably. There was supposed to be a U.S. remake but it never happened...probably for the best.

 

The first time I saw Lost in Austen, I absolutely loathed it.  I simply could not fathom a world in which Mr. Darcy and Lizzie don't end up together - - plus, I thought for someone who was such a massive Austen/P&P fan, Amanda did some really foolish things that bordered on outright f**kery.   But I gave it another shot and learned to appreciate it for the differences and for the humor, which is OTT at times.

[dusang]

From a purely casting perspective, I enjoyed the '95 P&P mini-series but was continually bothered by how unattractive Wickham was.  The KK/MM version definitely improved Wickham but (and perhaps just because his introductory shot was so ... appealing) the Bride & Prejudice Wickham is my favourite.  Also, I think Rosamund Pike really looked the part of Jane, although I agree with those who think the character is too dull.

 

Indeed, I think Captain Wentworth is my favourite Austen hero but his dramatic romanticism is wasted on stupid, malleable Anne.  Honestly, I could deal with her if she didn't actually say "I'm glad I rejected you because I would have felt bad for not agreeing with Lady Russell."  Bitch, please!!

[DkNNy79]

Indeed, I think Captain Wentworth is my favourite Austen hero but his dramatic romanticism is wasted on stupid, malleable Anne.  Honestly, I could deal with her if she didn't actually say "I'm glad I rejected you because I would have felt bad for not agreeing with Lady Russell."  Bitch, please!!

Anne's family really is horrid though.  At least Lizzie had Jane and her father to talk to.  Although you would think with her family being the way they are, Anne would jump at an opportunity to leave w/Wentworth.

[dusang]

Anne's family really is horrid though.  At least Lizzie had Jane and her father to talk to.  Although you would think with her family being the way they are, Anne would jump at an opportunity to leave w/Wentworth.

 

I hate Mr. Bennett -- he's a terrible husband and father.  He's insulting to his wife and neglectful of his children.  His clear favouritism of Jane & Elizabeth only compounds his terribleness. The whole Lydia debacle is as much his fault as anyone else's -- he took no interest in her to raise her properly, setting up her character flaws and then he knew she would do something bad and instead of taking any kind of interest in his daughter or his family he just shrugged and abdicated his responsibility.

 

Although, to your other point, I wouldn't be so harsh on Anne if she hadn't said that one thing but the fact that, even in hindsight, she felt she had some moral high ground for rejecting him just ruined her in my eyes.

 

(I know I'm judging from a modern perspective and should take more consideration for the norms of the time but I'm not going to.)

Edited April 16, 2015 by dusang

[proserpina65]

Although, to your other point, I wouldn't be so harsh on Anne if she hadn't said that one thing but the fact that, even in hindsight, she felt she had some moral high ground for rejecting him just ruined her in my eyes.

 

Wow, you have a very different perspective on this than I do.  And I don't remember her saying that.  Are you talking about one of the film/tv versions or the book itself?  She certainly did not say it in the Amanda Peet/Ciaran Hinds film, nor did Amanda Peet's performance give any evidence of Anne feeling she had some moral high ground for previously rejecting Frederick's proposal years earlier.  In that film (and, imo, in the book) it definitely comes across as Anne having been persuaded that marrying a poor man with no apparent prospects would not be beneficial to her family.  Admittedly, that's not the best reason for rejecting him, but she was young and cared about her family, and with her mother's absence perhaps felt more responsible for acting in a manner which would help preserve the family's well-being.  No moral high ground involved, imo.

Edited April 16, 2015 by proserpina65

[dusang]

Wow, you have a very different perspective on this than I do.  And I don't remember her saying that.  Are you talking about one of the film/tv versions or the book itself?

 

The book itself.  Chapter 23 (from literatureproject.com)

It was in one of these short meetings, each apparently occupied in admiring a fine display of greenhouse plants, that she said--

"I have been thinking over the past, and trying impartially to judge of the right and wrong, I mean with regard to myself; and I must believe that I was right, much as I suffered from it, that I was perfectly right in being guided by the friend whom you will love better than you do now. To me, she was in the place of a parent. Do not mistake me, however. I am not saying that she did not err in her advice. It was, perhaps, one of those cases in which advice is good or bad only as the event decides; and for myself, I certainly never should, in any circumstance of tolerable similarity, give such advice. But I mean, that I was right in submitting to her, and that if I had done otherwise, I should have suffered more in continuing the engagement than I did even in giving it up, because I should have suffered in my conscience. I have now, as far as such a sentiment is allowable in human nature, nothing to reproach myself with; and if I mistake not, a strong sense of duty is no bad part of a woman's portion."

 

(Emphasis mine.)  To my mind, she should have had more faith in both herself and Wentworth and gone forward with the engagement, rather than be persuaded by the bad advice of her friend.  She proceeds to say that had he returned just a year later and asked again she would have married him and he blames his own arrogance for keeping them apart.  I just... no.

Edited April 16, 2015 by dusang

[proserpina65]

Thanks, dusang.  It's been awhile since I read the book.  I still disagree with your interpretation, since I'm taking into consideration the time in which the character lived, when obedience to parental authority was important.  But you've given me some insight into your perspective, and I appreciate that.

Edited April 16, 2015 by proserpina65

[dusang]

Fair enough.  Obviously reading any of Austen's books now there are things that just cannot hold up from a socially acceptable perspective but at least most of her female leads had a bit of chutzpah, shall we say?  And Persuasion is rather sweepingly dramatic so Anne's propriety seems that much more ... tediously meek by comparison.

Edited April 16, 2015 by dusang

[proserpina65]

And Persuasion is rather sweepingly dramatic so Anne's propriety seems that much more ... tediously meek by comparison.

 

Well, she was young when she made the decision to refuse Frederick, and obviously changed her mind later, ultimately marrying him and not Mr. Elliott as her family would've preferred, so she does seem to have loosened up on that propriety as she matured.  And not every woman could be Lizzie Bennett.  But yes, I'd say Anne Elliott is a harder character to wrap one's head around, given the differences in societal mores between Austen's era and ours.

 

Now you've made me need to read Persuasion again.  Thanks.  :-)

[dusang]

Well, she was young when she made the decision to refuse Frederick, and obviously changed her mind later, ultimately marrying him and not Mr. Elliott as her family would've preferred, so she does seem to have loosened up on that propriety as she matured.  And not every woman could be Lizzie Bennett.  But yes, I'd say Anne Elliott is a harder character to wrap one's head around, given the differences in societal mores between Austen's era and ours.

 

Now you've made me need to read Persuasion again.  Thanks.  :-)

 

And, obviously, the entire premise of the book is dependent on her being persuaded.  It's more that she continued to rationalize and justify her decision rather than acknowledge that she had been young and afraid and now she was firm in her feelings and identity to do what was right for her, regardless of the opinions of others and, therefore, ready to make a better decision.

[proserpina65]

Okay, this might be a unpopular opinion, but I've decided that, although I love Elinor and, to a lesser extent, Marianne Dashwood in the Ang Lee film of Sense and Sensibility, I'm not sure I actually like their characters that much in the book.  For women who are pretty dependent on the goodwill of others to maintain the lifestyle to which they, and their mother even more so, are accustomed, they are quite snobbish and judgmental in the novel.  Of course, that's part of what makes them human, I guess, and maybe I'm not supposed to find them sympathetic all the time, but it did surprise me when I read the book (after I'd seen the film).

[proserpina65]

And, obviously, the entire premise of the book is dependent on her being persuaded.  It's more that she continued to rationalize and justify her decision rather than acknowledge that she had been young and afraid and now she was firm in her feelings and identity to do what was right for her, regardless of the opinions of others and, therefore, ready to make a better decision.

I don't necessarily think that's an uncommon thing to do, even now, for people who are of a less decisive bent.  Many people would continue to rationalize their old decisions unless forced to act, which, to give Anne credit, when push comes to shove, she does finally reach that point.  Maybe it's because, in a lot of ways, I'm more like Anne than some of Austen's more dynamic heroines, that I have more sympathy for her.

 

{edited to note: Dusang, your comments have made me think more about why I connect with Anne Elliot so much, something that maybe I hadn't really done to this extent before - isn't it great when internet discussion can do that?)

Edited April 16, 2015 by proserpina65

[dusang]

I don't necessarily think that's an uncommon thing to do, even now, for people who are of a less decisive bent.  Many people would continue to rationalize their old decisions unless forced to act, which, to give Anne credit, when push comes to shove, she does finally reach that point.  Maybe it's because, in a lot of ways, I'm more like Anne than some of Austen's more dynamic heroines, that I have more sympathy for her.

 

{edited to note: Dusang, your comments have made me think more about why I connect with Anne Elliot so much, something that maybe I hadn't really done to this extent before - isn't it great when internet discussion can do that?)

 

Yeah, people may be like that but I don't read romance for the reality of it all! :)