S05.E05: Episode Five

[Avaleigh]

Simon Bricker returns to Downton to discuss the painting with Cora, but this time has his flirting crossed the line? Branson makes a difficult decision about Sarah Bunting, and Rose encounters a handsome stranger.

Determined to stop Isobel making the wrong decision about Lord Merton, Violet enlists the help of Doctor Clarkson, but things don't quite go as planned. Meanwhile in London, Charles Blake surprises Mary with a cunning plan to help her get exactly what she wants.

Downstairs, Mrs Patmore seeks Carson's advice on a financial matter and Inspector Vyner returns with some ominous words of warning for Anna.

[Kostgard]

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, Bunting. It's ridiculous that she'd leave town after Tom didn't want to date her (and they were never really seeing each other anyway) and she wasn't going to be invited to DA to yell at Robert anymore, but as long as she goes, I'll take it.

 

I'm not looking forward to the latest disaster with Edith's kid. How did they propose getting the Drewes to release her to go to boarding school? "Guess what - this kid is one of us, so hand her over"? And god only knows what Edith plans to do now.

 

Speaking of Violet's bad plans - isn't all this super-awkward for Dr. Clarkson, who once proposed to Isobel himself? I'm glad that she at least was able to admit that they were a good match.

 

And Thomas? You may alleviate your loneliness problem a bit by stopping being a dick all the time for no reason. But someone better get arrested for Greene's murder soon. This is dragging on way too long.

 

I couldn't care less about Robert's temper tantrum and everyone's super-concerned looks at the party.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Kostgard

[kpw801]

Good episode - great in fact!  However, I did find it a little unrealistic to have Daisy run up to Tom and tell him to "go after" Ms. Bunting...we're the future they are the past."  I don't buy that Tom and Ms. Bunting had such a romantic relationship.  She was such a bigot!  She actually did not remember when Tom told her "I love them" and so now she asks Tom, "Don't you despise them?"  I can see why he didn't pursue it.,  She is totally blind where the Crawleys are concerned and I wish Tom had spoken up for the Crawleys to Daisy and to Sarah Bunting!

[CofCinci]

I was on the edge of my seat as Robert walked up the stairs, which is a first for me in five seasons.

 

So happy that Bunting is gone. 

[SilverShadow]

To paraphrase from the Up Your Downstairs podcast, yeah, Edith is totally gonna steal that baby. Rose's new beau was a cutie and her taking a fancy to him before the reveal that he's Jewish helps it not feel like a retread of singer dude from last season. Mabel Lane-Fox can do so much better than Gillingham and I really hope Mary and Blake's plan doesn't come to anything.

 

Thank God Bunting's gone. She was so rude and abrasive. Why couldn't Tom meet someone who shares his liberal principals who isn't also a complete asshole? Ugh Fellows. You know Bunting's what he thinks most liberals are like. Blech. And oh Thomas, stop taking those drugs before you kill yourself. Please let this whole plotline put a kibosh on him being the house villain. Just let him hang back and be snarky and occasionally have a fling with a nice dude.

 

This season hasn't been bad exactly but it's kind of a blur with almost all the plotlines being arc-based rather than episodic.

[Lady Grump]

But, But......he has MONEY!

 

I'm done with Fellows' materialistic/pro-monarch stance seeping into this soap opera.

 

It's gross at this point.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Lady Grump

[Eolivet]

I really liked the scene with Rose and Atticus Aldridge. It was well-played and poignant. Since Downton isn't exactly known for its romantic subtlety, I keep thinking what they face in 10 years if they marry. And what their children may face, being Jewish.

 

Lots of nice, subtle romances this year. Isobel and Lord Merton, Molesley and Baxter and now Rose and Atticus (potentially). The show hasn't done subtle well in a long time, so it's refreshing.

 

I'll be happy for Mary if Charles Blake makes her happy, but I really can't see him as anything more than her gay best friend at this point.

 

Careful, Bates. The last man who opined about all the children he was going to have ended up in a ditch.

[Avaleigh]

I might very well be done with this show if Isobel doesn't have the sense to take sweet Merton. He's smart, he shares and cares about her interests, he has money, he seems to genuinely love/care for her, and he's friendly and wouldn't have any problem mixing with the sort of people that she might want to bring into their circle.

The other thing about the Isobel/Merton thing is that I hate that Violet is taking an active role in trying to sabotage the relationship. I also wasn't sure what to think when Violet acted all confused when Dr Clarkson called her on the possibility that she might very well resent the idea of Isobel enjoying a loftier position in society.

 

It felt like Mabel was saying all of the things JF imagined viewers might say if they'd only heard about Mabel and Tony getting back together without actually seeing it. He wants to give Mabel a spine and make her seem like she's anything but Lavinia (I would have actually assumed this was true without actually having to meet her character) only it ended up feeling kind of forced and false. Still though I laughed when she ended up leaving the two of them there and she seemed miffed that she got to the restaurant early meanwhile Blake made sure to escort Mary.

 

I liked the scenes with Rose and Atticus. I'm guessing his family is supposed to be loosely based on the Rothchild family only in this case they have a Russian background?

 

I hated seeing Cora shut out of the Edith drama. I know it isn't her life at the end of the day but it just seems so mean to not allow her to be trusted, to help, to have an opinion, etc. End then on top of that she ends up getting busted for a situation that she IMO wasn't asking for. If Bricker had really wanted to try to take their relationship to the next stage that night then he should have asked her if he could come to her room. Just showing up and putting her in a situation where she's automatically compromised took me back to Mary and Pamuk and it made me take an automatic dislike to Bricker. Before tonight's episode I thought he was okay but after he barged in on Cora and made her repeatedly ask him to leave I didn't feel all that bad about Robert giving him that first bitch slap. (Lol, I was going to say that Robert punched him in the face but the scene was honestly shot like some sketch comedy from the old 90s show In Living Color  and it looked like Robert was giving the guy the back of his hand.) 

[bluebonnet]

There are a lot of characters on DA that I don't like, but Bunting had to be the absolute worst.  She was just so ill-conceived from the start.  There was no chemistry between her and Tom, there was nothing believable about Tom even being friendly with someone who was such an incredible asshole, the writers seemed to forget that Tom had told Bunting that he loved these people.  She pretty much served no purpose because the five minute meeting at that political thing last season would have been enough to get Tom thinking about his own politics again, or else discussing the Russian problem would help him think about his own politics, or further research into moving to America.  There was just so much without trying to make the nastiest woman in the world into some sort of love interest.  I did like that Tom never told her that he loved her after she said it.  I still don't know how that's possible when they never spent any time together apart from those dinners where she did nothing but be an asshole to her hosts.  

 

I'm getting tired of this baby drama.  More, I'm getting tired of everything bad always happening to Edith.  I just want her to stand up at dinner and say "I have a child and I don't care what anyone thinks about it.  I'll move to America with Tom and pretend I'm a widow."  Though, taking Marigold away from the Drewes would be so traumatizing for her.  She's already been removed from one family.  Removing her from another so soon just increases the possibility of severe attachment disorders.  Stuff like that doesn't exist on TV, certainly not Downton Abbey soap opera tv.  But it still makes me cringe to think of how traumatic Marigold's life has been and will continue to be.  I think it would just be so much better if Edith told Mrs. Drew the truth and told her the story of how Marigold came to be, things would work out.  I know Edith really wants her baby, but it's in the child's best interest to remain with this loving family.  If the farmer's wife knows the background story, she'd probably be a lot more open to the idea of this lady stopping by to visit all the time.  

 

I'm also getting really tired of this Bates murder mystery.  It's completely unbelievable this is even being investigated.  Maybe I missed something somewhere but I don't see how a man in a crowd falling in from of traffic becomes so worthy of such a thorough investigation.  There shouldn't be anything suspicious about this.  This plot doesn't make any sense, except as yet another retread plot.  

 

I still have no idea who Mary's men are.  They will all look the exact same and I would have to do a good search to even know how many of them there are right now.  They are as bland as she is.  

 

Lol, I can't quit this show even when I have all these complaints.  It's one of the better soap operas.  

[Lady Grump]

It's one of the better soap operas.

 

Here here! Dannnywah!

[Pogojoco]

There are a lot of characters on DA that I don't like, but Bunting had to be the absolute worst.  She was just so ill-conceived from the start.  There was no chemistry between her and Tom, there was nothing believable about Tom even being friendly with someone who was such an incredible asshole, the writers seemed to forget that Tom had told Bunting that he loved these people.  She pretty much served no purpose because the five minute meeting at that political thing last season would have been enough to get Tom thinking about his own politics again, or else discussing the Russian problem would help him think about his own politics, or further research into moving to America.  There was just so much without trying to make the nastiest woman in the world into some sort of love interest.  I did like that Tom never told her that he loved her after she said it.  I still don't know how that's possible when they never spent any time together apart from those dinners where she did nothing but be an asshole to her hosts.  

 

 

This. Times 10000000000. She was awful. And everyone in the house acting like it was all Robert causing drama-shut up everyone. And I just suspect it's the show writers illustrating their pro-aristocracy stuff, like "look at this asshole commoner". 

 

Rose and the Jewish guy- interesting. He's cute. Also mirrors Robert and Cora- as her father was Jewish. I actually thought the Russian guy was denying that Atticus was Russian because his family is from the Ukraine and he thought they were Bolsheviks or some kind of "lesser" Eastern Slav. That guy was awfully uppity for a displaced dude who can't afford cake. 

 

Oh Edith. They really need to tell Mrs Pig Man the deal. And I guess this means Edith isn't getting any from Pig Man. 

 

And I like Blake- Julian Ovenden plays old fashioned, energetic dudes quite well. He needs to needle and discomfit Mary all the time and he may stay. The scene of the two of them with the pigs is one of my fav Mary moments ever. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by Pogojoco

[Andorra]

I liked this episode very much. It was really fun to watch!

 

First and foremost I'm of course happy that Bunting is gone. I hated her from the first minute she appeared and I never could believe that she was a love interest for Tom, even though the press kept calling her "lovely" and kept talking about the "blossoming feelings" of Tom. We never saw that!

She was actually always horrible, always prejudiced, always ranting about his family even though he told her repeatedlyt that he loved them, that they were kind to him and that he is grateful to them. She just ignored it again and again and then she really asked him today if he doesn't "despise" them?

Hello?? Did she ever listen to a word he said?

 

She got her pity kiss, but I think that was OOC and unnecessary. It made more out of the relationship than it ever was.

 

I loved Mabel! She's a cool girl and I love it that she calls Charles Blake on his BS all the time! I think Charles Blake is a slimy schemer and can't stand him, sorry, so I love it that she told him to choke on his food. Good line, Mabel!

 

Edith... seriously the whole Drewe Drama is so far fetched! Why didn't they, when they proposed that Edith will be a godmother to Marigold, just say she can visit for one afternoon a week? No woman with a lot of work could object to that, surely? Edith could see her daughter on a regular basis, she would be her godmother and Mrs Drewe wouldn't feel stalked by her.

 

Instead Mrs Drewe is running amok for no reason and Violet and Rosamund come up with a completely insane idea??

 

I hope Tom will show a bit more sense, when Edith tells him next week. She finally needs someone who has more than one brain cell to be on her side!

 

Rose and Atticus: I was expecting him to be bloody perfect, but now I'm crushed he's Jewish. Now my whole theory about Tom and Rose has gone down the gutter. He's of course filthy rich and titled, but him being Jewis is the "flaw" that makes him "unsuitable". So he will be the one Shrimpy has to take side for with Rose against Susan and they will be married at the end of the series.

 

Too bad. Who is left for Tom now??

 

I don't want him to end up with either of the sisters and there has been no one announced or linked to the show who could be his new love interest. Are we really going to see him end yet another series alone?? I can't believe that! Why wasting 8 episodes on horrible Sarah Bunting and 4 episodes on horrible Edna and not give Tom a lovely romance instead?? He desperately needs a romantic storyline!!!

[Ravenya003]

Always nice to see Rosamund again, though I have to confess I had completely forgotten that Violet knew about Edith's baby. This continues to be the most ridiculous plot of the whole show, despite having the potential to be the best. So what, Edith is going to kidnap a child now? One who is old enough to have formed an attachment to her adoptive parents? Why they can't simply TELL Mrs Drewe the damn truth is still a mystery (perhaps if she had been written as a gossip would have helped, but she seems a fairly sensible woman). But at this point Edith's plight seems so awful that simply coming out and admitting she had a child out of wedlock seems the better choice than shipping the kid off to France.

 

And I continue to find it ironic that Edith is grappling with so much grief over her daughter whilst Mary seems to have completely forgotten she even has a son.

 

I never hated Sarah Bunting as much as others did, so I'm at least glad she left with a modicum of grace. Having read a couple of spoilers I was under the impression that she left town in a huff; as it happened she was given a better job offer and Tom's rejection was what gave her the incentive to take it. Still, I'm left wondering what on earth the point of her was. Wouldn't the character have worked better if she had been a genuinely sweet leftie who made a few clumsy comments around the Crawleys and who subsequently felt mortified/intimidated by them? In other words, actually giving Tom's choice a sense of real poignancy at letting go of a good woman who just didn't feel comfortable around his extended family? Instead it felt like Fellowes needed to push her into being more and more awful until it was a blessed relief that she finally left.

 

So Robert's going to throw a tantrum despite Cora CLEARLY AND FIRMLY telling Bricker to leave her room. Of course. I'm sure all his memories of the WWII housemaid he nearly had sex with while Cora was dying upstairs has completely fled his memory.

 

This was certainly a good episode for men acting like children; on the left we have Carson getting haughty that Mrs Patmore had decided not to take his advice; on the right we have the Russian aristocrat getting pissy that Rose had the audacity to bring a Jewish man into his vicinity. But I actually appreciate Fellowes for this POV; a personal experience I had the other day really brought home the realization that men (in general) honestly have no idea how much work women have to put into coddling their egos.

 

Mabel Lane-Fox can come back at any time. She was a hoot!

[ElizaD]

Bunting was written as incredibly tone-deaf. Even if Tom may well have been uncomfortable with stuff Robert and Violet said when Bunting was around, did she really manage to see him spending time with Mary, Edith, Cora, Isobel and Rose and think that naturally he must secretly despise them? Cora and Rose I would imagine tried to make Bunting comfortable on her visits because they're kind, sociable people, and Isobel spoke up in her defense.

 

Rose and Atticus both give me the impression of being nice but not terribly bright people.

 

Everything about the Green storyline makes me feel like the Judy Garland I Don't Care gif.

[Avaleigh]

Is it terrible of me to admit that I was satisfied at hearing the almost universally loved character of Tom say to Mary that he thinks she's a lot nicer than people give her credit for? 

 

Why they can't simply TELL Mrs Drewe the damn truth is still a mystery (perhaps if she had been written as a gossip would have helped, but she seems a fairly sensible woman). But at this point Edith's plight seems so awful that simply coming out and admitting she had a child out of wedlock seems the better choice than shipping the kid off to France.

 

 

I can't believe that Edith won't at least verbalize the possibility of telling Mrs Drewe the truth. Furthermore, I can't believe that the pieces didn't fall into place for Mrs Drewe when Edith brought Rosamund over to see Marigold. When Rosamund was saying goodbye and paused before saying "your...friend Rosamund." It was so obvious she'd nearly said "Aunt" I don't know how Mrs. D didn't catch that. Maybe she's just being willfully blind at this point. 

 

I loved when Rosamund said of course she wanted to see her niece Marigold. I don't think the plan to send the child to France is the worst since Edith seemed to have big concerns about not wanting to be cast out of society, but since keeping Marigold so far away isn't what Edith wants they need to figure something else out and it needs to happen before Marigold gets too used to being with the Drewes. She's already been taken from one family I'd feel bad for her to bounce from place to place without feeling as though she's found a permanent home. 

 

I actually thought the Russian guy was denying that Atticus was Russian because his family is from the Ukraine and he thought they were Bolsheviks or some kind of "lesser" Eastern Slav. That guy was awfully uppity for a displaced dude who can't afford cake.

 

 

Lol, I know, right? I also didn't make the connection at first that the guy was anti-Semitic. My sympathy pretty much flew out of the window for the count in that moment but I still think the prince seems like a good guy and I hope he ends up connecting with his wife again.

 

Still, I'm left wondering what on earth the point of her was. Wouldn't the character have worked better if she had been a genuinely sweet leftie who made a few clumsy comments around the Crawleys and who subsequently felt mortified/intimidated by them? In other words, actually giving Tom's choice a sense of real poignancy at letting go of a good woman who just didn't feel comfortable around his extended family? Instead it felt like Fellowes needed to push her into being more and more awful until it was a blessed relief that she finally left

I so agree with this. I think they should have introduced a middle class, left leaning school teacher who made a nice enough impression at first but then just ultimately ended up not working out because of various differences and because of her ultimately getting a better opportunity that would take her far away from Tom and his job at Downton. Have one bad dinner not three. Have her be a success at a first meeting, maybe have her connect a bit with another character like Isobel, have her make some witty political commentary in front of the family but then also maybe have her come up against some snobbery from a guest or a member of staff in a couple of moments that maybe Tom doesn't witness so that there's some unexplained awkwardness where he doesn't understand why she doesn't necessarily enjoy social occasions at Downton. I also thought it would have been cool if she'd had the opportunity to have a job in some place like India. She seems like someone who would probably like to see more of the world. 

[Andorra]

 

Is it terrible of me to admit that I was satisfied at hearing the almost universally loved character of Tom say to Mary that he thinks she's a lot nicer than people give her credit for?

 

I liked this scene very much, too and it made me wonder again. Is it just me or is Mary so much more genuine and open in her scenes with Tom as she ever is with one of her "suitors". With them she is always "in disguise" and wears the mask of the perfect society Lady.

Why is that?

 

I believe Allen and Michelle when they say that they can't see Mary and Tom getting together and I don't see romantic chemistry in those scenes either, just genuine friendship, but I find it puzzling that we have those "late night scenes" in the last three episodes. First the scene where Mary told him about Tony, then the scene last week when Mary tried to cheer him up after the disastrous dinner with Bunting and now this week when she tells him he shall make the right decision for him and not for them.

 

I don't recall any scene where Mary has been so close to any of her suitors. Maybe the one where Blake told her she was cleverer than Tony, but he left her sitting there and she was not open with him either. She was still wearing her "society mask".

[Llywela]

That strikes me as very real - frustrating, but a real problem. Mary was brought up to wear that society mask at all times with potential suitors - it's part of the game, don't show them your true self, be witty and sparkling at all times, can't risk putting them off. That habit is so deeply ingrained that she can't let it go - even though part of the reason she wanted that weekend away with Tony was to get to know one another properly, she still couldn't drop the mask with him. If she can't drop it with Blake either, maybe that's a sign that he isn't right either, or maybe they just aren't there yet.

 

With Tom, though, he isn't part of that game. There is no risk inherent in letting the mask drop with him. She doesn't feel she has to play a role in their interactions, doesn't have to worry about scaring him off. She isn't trying to snare him. He's family. He's a friend. There is nothing else she wants or needs him to be, and therefore she is free to be herself with him. And they've known one another a long time now.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Llywela

[kpw801]

Also, I can't believe how idiotic Isobel was when she was spouting this "I like an opposing view" thing, it keeps you on your toes.  It is one thing to have an opposing view but quite another to deliberately and maliciously cause drama at every single opportunity.  Isobel claimed while she spent all that time nursing Violet when she was sick that she owed quite a lot to the family,  Siding with someone so obviously hostile didn't make sense.  Also I agree that Edith should have just come right out and said that was her child, even if as another writer said it meant that she took her child to America and raised her there. 

 

Amen to the I am tired of the Green drama.  Anna and Bates used to be so cute together, but their chemistry has pretty much fizzled.  Anna seems to have ruined her life by marrying Bates.  She is never happy anymore.  She was so sure of his innocence when he was accused of murdering his wife but now she seems to think she is married to a monster.

[Llywela]

A lot of people seem to want Edith to take Marigold and run away with her. I think that's an awful idea - damaging for the child and cruel to her adoptive family, who love her. She's already taken the child away from one adoptive family - and a throwaway line that Mrs Schroeder has adopted another child now doesn't make that right. It is cruel to give a child to a family to adopt and then take it away again, and is also disruptive and damaging to that child. Marigold has bonded with her adoptive family. They love her and are raising her as their own. However hard it is for Edith, the situation is what it is. You can't just put a child on a shelf and then pick it up again later. She is playing with other peoples' lives and putting her own wishes ahead of what is the right thing to do.

 

I've also seen suggestions that telling Mrs Drew the truth would magically make everything okay. I'm not so sure. Knowing Edith was the birth mother would make her paranoia worse - she is already afraid that Edith will abduct the child, and that's just based on the creepy obsession this childless spinster appears to have developed for the little orphan. If she knew the reason why Edith is so obsessed, her fear of having Marigold taken away would only grow, while any access agreed would always leave her feeling undermined in her position as Marigold's mother. If Edith had been able to restrain herself, behaved sensibly around the child and restricted herself to weekly visits, most of this situation could have been avoided. But she had no self-control at all, overwhelmed Mrs Drew by just showing up pretty much every day, whenever was convenient for her, has disrupted family life for the Drews...no, I can understand Mrs Drew's position only too well.

[kpw801]

Oh and one other thing.  The consensus downstairs was that Ms. Bunting was leaving because Tom Branson wouldn't "stand up for her"?  Are you kidding me?  Who would stand up for her?  She was not in the right ever except if you want to strain credulity for that one time time she was told to shut up about the war memorial but even then, she was way out of line by insulting Robert about them "not wanting him" on the project.  I cannot understand this stupid plot device and again, glad she is gone!

A lot of people seem to want Edith to take Marigold and run away with her. I think that's an awful idea - damaging for the child and cruel to her adoptive family, who love her. She's already taken the child away from one adoptive family - and a throwaway line that Mrs Schroeder has adopted another child now doesn't make that right. It is cruel to give a child to a family to adopt and then take it away again, and is also disruptive and damaging to that child. Marigold has bonded with her adoptive family. They love her and are raising her as their own. However hard it is for Edith, the situation is what it is. You can't just put a child on a shelf and then pick it up again later. She is playing with other peoples' lives and putting her own wishes ahead of what is the right thing to do.

 

I've also seen suggestions that telling Mrs Drew the truth would magically make everything okay. I'm not so sure. Knowing Edith was the birth mother would make her paranoia worse - she is already afraid that Edith will abduct the child, and that's just based on the creepy obsession this childless spinster appears to have developed for the little orphan. If she knew the reason why Edith is so obsessed, her fear of having Marigold taken away would only grow, while any access agreed would always leave her feeling undermined in her position as Marigold's mother. If Edith had been able to restrain herself, behaved sensibly around the child and restricted herself to weekly visits, most of this situation could have been avoided. But she had no self-control at all, overwhelmed Mrs Drew by just showing up pretty much every day, whenever was convenient for her, has disrupted family life for the Drews...no, I can understand Mrs Drew's position only too well.

It won't magically make everything okay if Edith tells Mrs. Drew the truth.  In cases with adoptive children where the birth mother changes her mind, there is going to be some collateral damage.  Edith gave them the child specifically so she could see her.  She did not give the child up for adoption.  Unfortunately Mrs. Drew was not in on the arrangements so she didn't understand why Edith was always there.  If I were Edith and things soured this way, I would have to do what I could to make sure I had that relationship with my child.  Gregson is probably dead.  She is pretty much over the hill as far as marriage.  This is probably the only child she will ever have and I'm sorry, I think when push comes to shove, the best thing for Marigold in this situation is to be with her mother.  Edith will work it out and the child will be fine in the long run.

[Andorra]

When he offered "it will be our secret alone", I thought Tim Drewe was very nice, but in retrospect I think that was what triggered this whole mess. Had he been open with his wife and told her that Lady Edith had asked him to take care of a friend's daughter, things would have been much easier. It would have been understandable to Mrs Drewe why Edith is taking an interest, they could have made her the girl's goodmother and they could have come to an understanding that Edith is able to see Marigold on a regular basis.

 

But the problem was that Edith didn't really think it all through. She acted impulsivley and was probably hoping that knowing Marigold was close, would be enough for her, but it turned out it wasn't. She wants more. She can't stand back, as Ethel promised she would do with Charlie,  and just watch her child from afar without any real contact and she then took advantage of her privileged position to visit her without being invited.

 

And I don't think now telling Mrs Drewe would end the problem. Also I wouldn't underestimate the amount of judgement that people had for an unmarried woman with a child. Tim Drewe is very understanding, but do we know Margie would be, too?

Edited October 20, 2014 by Andorra

[Featherhat]

Daisy made me really annoyed with her “she’s being driven out of the village and she’s perfect and loves you!” tirade. I’m really glad Daisy is getting some education, but its not like Daisy herself isn’t on her what 4th offer of bettering herself, this is just the one time she’s taken it. And Tom has shown absolutely *no* romantic affection for Bunting at any point. Even without the fact that she’s incredibly rude and abrasive Tom doesn’t owe her any ILY just because they have some of the same ideals. I did like the speech Tom gave about how it could never work between them because of how much she can’t stand the family to which me and his daughter belong. She’d be an absolutely horrible step mother to a granddaughter of an Earl and cousin of the heir, especially if Sybbie wants any kind of close contact with them when she’s growing up even if they don’t live at Downton.

 

I really don’t like Robert much at all, but I’ve been on his side with the Bunting thing, if someone who clearly couldn’t stand me was constantly accepting invitations to my home in order to be rude to me I’d want her thrown out never to return as well.

I think when push comes to shove, the best thing for Marigold in this situation is to be with her mother.  Edith will work it out and the child will be fine in the long run.

 

Things are not exactly easy for illegitimate children in general, even if they’re connected with the aristocracy. Marigold would find a lot of doors closed to her. Sybbie with her parents scandalous marriage and working class origin father would be better off in societies eyes (and not just upper class society. Of course there are exceptions such as Lady Almira of Highclere but that was with her very rich and powerful father’s full support not as Lady Edith’s (who’s never had much standing) mistake. It would be better for her to stay as the daughter of the Drew’s and have Lady Edith’s patronage to get on in life.

 

If Edith had insisted on keeping her she should either have “adopted” her as a ward (she’d have to tell her family the truth in that case) and everyone would know it was a polite fiction but it gives everyone some cover. Or else yes she should have gone to granny in America and pretended to be a widow. But at this point I think its pretty terrible for her to rip the child from a 2nd family, one who’s come seems happy and who clearly love her.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I will not miss Miss Bunting. I agree that her character could have been a catalyst for Tom to remember how passionate he was about social issues before and even been a friend or romantic interest. But instead, they made her a total dick who just happens to share some of his political leanings.

 

I would be fine with Tom taking Sybbie and leaving Downton, but I am so glad that he didn't make that choice to be with Miss Bunting. If and when he goes, I want it to be for a good reason, not because he's following a jerkface somewhere.

 

Robert continues to be his usual priggish self. HOW DARE his wife be friends with someone who doesn't treat her like an idiot? And of course Robert would punish her by pouting and acting like a child.

 

I am sooooo tired of this murder investigation. Will they just arrest someone and be done with it so I don't have to sit through any more of these repetitive scenes were Anna is questioned for the millionth time? The same goes for Edith's endless visits to Marigold followed by Mrs. Drew getting upset.

 

Part of me hopes Mabel will reconcile with Gillingham just to shut him up because he was such an ass last week. But really, I don't give a crap what Mabel or Tony do.

 

Rose continues to be a delight though. The other person I loved this week was the doctor for realizing that Isobel and Merton are good together, despite his feelings for her.

[kpw801]

Daisy made me really annoyed with her “she’s being driven out of the village and she’s perfect and loves you!” tirade. I’m really glad Daisy is getting some education, but its not like Daisy herself isn’t on her what 4th offer of bettering herself, this is just the one time she’s taken it. And Tom has shown absolutely *no* romantic affection for Bunting at any point. Even without the fact that she’s incredibly rude and abrasive Tom doesn’t owe her any ILY just because they have some of the same ideals. I did like the speech Tom gave about how it could never work between them because of how much she can’t stand the family to which me and his daughter belong. She’d be an absolutely horrible step mother to a granddaughter of an Earl and cousin of the heir, especially if Sybbie wants any kind of close contact with them when she’s growing up even if they don’t live at Downton.

 

I really don’t like Robert much at all, but I’ve been on his side with the Bunting thing, if someone who clearly couldn’t stand me was constantly accepting invitations to my home in order to be rude to me I’d want her thrown out never to return as well.

 

 

 

Things are not exactly easy for illegitimate children in general, even if they’re connected with the aristocracy. Marigold would find a lot of doors closed to her. Sybbie with her parents scandalous marriage and working class origin father would be better off in societies eyes (and not just upper class society. Of course there are exceptions such as Lady Almira of Highclere but that was with her very rich and powerful father’s full support not as Lady Edith’s (who’s never had much standing) mistake. It would be better for her to stay as the daughter of the Drew’s and have Lady Edith’s patronage to get on in life.

 

If Edith had insisted on keeping her she should either have “adopted” her as a ward (she’d have to tell her family the truth in that case) and everyone would know it was a polite fiction but it gives everyone some cover. Or else yes she should have gone to granny in America and pretended to be a widow. But at this point I think its pretty terrible for her to rip the child from a 2nd family, one who’s come seems happy and who clearly love her.

I know things are not easy for illegitimate children - especially in the aristocracy of post edwardian England.  That is why I think she should have taken the child to New York to live with her uber rich grandmother and either pretended to be widowed from the war or Spanish flu or have her be some kind of favored distant relative.  I don't remember much about my childhood until around age 4 or 5.  It might be traumatic at first but the family (Mr. Drew) already knew Edith was the mother and it is unrealistic to threaten to leave and take Marigold with them and cut off all contact with Edith and think Edith will not just say the plan didn't work and take her child.  At this point it is every time you turn around, Mr. Drew is coming up with a different plan that Edith must follow through on and since the situation is getting complicated, I say she should take her child and deal with the emotional fallout and tell the pig man, thanks but I'll handle it from now on.

[abbyzenn]

The "story" of Tom and Sarah is so inconsistent.  The first scene basically says he won't see her because she despises the family and he doesn't seem upset not to see her again.  Then after Daisy gives her stupid speech (and why would she know Sarah loves Tom??? How does he enter into her math lessons?), he acts conflicted.  Then the goodbye scene he says more or less than she awoke his political feelings not love/sexual feelings.  The problem with the whole Tom/Sarah thing is that we the viewers never got the impression that there were any meetings between the two other than the few we saw and in those meetings there certainly wasn't any hint of romance.  IF the writer wanted us to believe there had been other meetings then there should have been some hints dropped like Tom being late for tea because he had been with Sarah or Tom saying he was going to take Sarah on a drive, etc.

 

When Tom told Mary she was much nicer than people give her credit for I was waiting for him to add "Sybil always said that"

 

The scene with Rosamund visiting the Drewes was incredibly awkward.  Why did she even go there to see the child?  They could have seen her from a distance.  I feel for Marigold and Mrs. Drewe.  Edith always seems on edge when she visits Marigold not natural at all.  I don't think Edith (or Rosamund or Violet) are thinking of what's best for the child.  She's in a good home with parents who love her = leave her there.  Edith can watch her from afar and then when the child goes to school Edith could volunteer to work there.  I'm a broken record on this but Edith wants her cake and eat it too.  She wants Marigold but she's not willing to accept the social stigma.  She doesn't act in the best interests of the child but what she wants.  I've come to hate Edith and I don't care what horrible things happen to her.

 

Why send Marigold to France?? England doesn't have such places? yes it's so much better for a child to grow up in an impersonal school than with a loving family.  But at least if Marigold was sent to France, droopy Edith would follow her so I wouldn't have to see her again

[Llywela]

The scene with Rosamund visiting the Drewes was incredibly awkward.  Why did she even go there to see the child?  They could have seen her from a distance.  I feel for Marigold and Mrs. Drewe.  Edith always seems on edge when she visits Marigold not natural at all.  I don't think Edith (or Rosamund or Violet) are thinking of what's best for the child.  She's in a good home with parents who love her = leave her there.  Edith can watch her from afar and then when the child goes to school Edith could volunteer to work there.  I'm a broken record on this but Edith wants her cake and eat it too.  She wants Marigold but she's not willing to accept the social stigma.  She doesn't act in the best interests of the child but what she wants.  I've come to hate Edith and I don't care what horrible things happen to her

None of them are thinking about what's best for the child (except perhaps Mrs Drew, who is right to feel that Edith's obsession with the child is disruptive, even if she is coming off as unreasonable about it; coming from a family with an adopted child in it, I can appreciate her point completely). I did appreciate Rosamund's desire to see Marigold, though - selfish of her, perhaps, given the situation with the Drews, but it was a lovely human touch, I felt, that she felt a bond with her great-niece and wanted to see her just for the sake of seeing her, acknowledging her as a human being rather than just a problem.

 

But the idea of shoving her off to France completely treats her as a problem not a person - Rosamund always wanted the child to be raised abroad, just to keep her away from Edith, away from the possibility of the scandal being uncovered.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Llywela

[DianeDobbler]

Why do I feel there is no way Isobel will marry Lord Merton, because she and Violet are a double act, and Fellowes will never ever change that. A husband would alter the formula.

 

Such a surprise the art dealer turned out to be inappropriate/creepy, because Fellowes always wants to have his cake and eat it too with Robert.

 

I see the family set-up back in the day as less child-centered than it is today, and I think it's in the best interest of Marigold to be with her mother. I can't imagine growing up knowing your real mother is around and you couldn't live with her/she doesn't want you. I have this vague idea of novels doing this, as has been mentioned before - one child living apart from the family. On the other hand, it's terribly unfair to Marigold to grow up with cousins, aunts, grandparents, etc., none of whom know her nor she them, or for the whole thing to be kept from her. Edith needs to nut up and take her daughter. It's best for the child. Forget the social stigma. Particularly with the class system and economic situation being what it is, and particularly with what happens to the Big House system, Marigold's future life is going to be much better with her real mother, and besides, this is her real mother. It's not as if an adoption happened and the records sealed. It's a half-life situation and that's not good.

 

I, too feel as if Charles Blake has suddenly transformed into the Gay Best Friend. I don't care but so much time wasted on this nonsense, and on non-problems (Tony won't take no for an answer!).

 

Setting Rose up with a cute, eligible guy with just enough "wrong" to create an obstacle, and meantime show Mary/Tom confiding, makes me think the Tom/Mary option really is on the table. So frustrating. Makes me think Tom is going to be in limbo forever, and makes me look out over the horizon for the next charm-deficient, dull, unlovely, inappropriate place holder for him, until such time as Downton is about to end, and that's when they'll get together.

 

So Thomas's entire story is the "mystery" of what he's doing? I'm so SO disappointed. So much more drama if we know what he's doing and our heart breaks over it, if he can't be talked round, if someone like Carson feels it might be a good idea, and others object. I feel as if this going to be "mystery, mystery, mystery, then he gets terribly sick and Baxter and Mrs. Hughes rally round and put a stop to it." ONE episode, maybe a scene and a half.

 

I like Rosamund but dont' know why anyone listens to her about anything.

Edited October 20, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[NotBothered]

This episode made me realize how little has happened this series. We're 5 episodes in and we're pretty much where we started.  And I know that they always talk (or used to talk) about the house being a character, but everything of interest occurs elsewhere now.  It's really starting to strain belief that neither Edith nor Mary has decamped to Grantham House in London.

 

I am enjoying Isobel and Lord Merton, Rose and the new guy, and Mary and Blake.  I would happily watch Mary and Blake snark and make faces at each other for an entire episode.  Everything else is just dour and unchanging right now...Robert is still an ass, Carson is still pompus, Mrs. Hughes is still a font of under appreciated wisdom, Edith is still miserable, Thomas is still an ass (even if occasionally sympathetic), and Anna and Bates are stuck in a Groundhog Day timeloop...they have had the same plotline since the middle of season 2.  Hopefully I can enjoy Tom again now that he no longer has to say the same things to Bunting and Robert in every episode. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Correct me if I am wrong but could Mary have been the one Involved heavily in killing the valet?

 

Did she have opportunity to get to London herself?

[Avaleigh]

Did she have opportunity to get to London herself?

 

 

Not only that but why would she have an attack of conscience last season over whether it was right or wrong to keep quiet about her suspicions regarding Bates? 

[shipperx]

The reason I don't quite view this as the equivalent of most modern adoptions is that the Drewe's didn't want or seek out adoption. What you had was Mr Drewe taking on Marigold BECAUSE Edith wanted to see and be close to her child. Edith is trying to conform to what everyone (including society) insists she must do. The reason Marigold is on the Drewe farm is because Edith didn't want separation from her child. Where it all went wrong was in cutting Mrs Drewe out of the loop. I suppose Mr Drewe thought he could ale these decisions for his wife because those were the times. But the reason Edith didn't leave Marigold in Switzerland was that she wasn't willing to give up her child. This isn't new. The problem is that no one told Mrs Drewe about the plan or wanted her input prior to the agreement.

[Llywela]

The problem is that no one told Mrs Drewe about the plan or wanted her input prior to the agreement.

Exactly. So from Mrs Drew's point of view she has taken on an orphan child, given her heart to that baby, agreed to raise it as if it were her own...and then a rich childless spinster from the big house takes a sudden interest in that child and won't leave the family alone. This other woman is turning up at all hours of the day, disrupting the family's routine, unsettling the baby, undermining Mrs Drew's own position, and that frightens her. Because she doesn't have the protection of a formal adoption, but did not consent to an open one, all she has is the promise she made to this supposedly orphaned baby, to love and protect her as her own child, a promise she has done her best to uphold - and we've seen enough of her with Marigold to know that she loves that child - and she is afraid that the obsessive rich spinster will now up and take the little girl away from her (based on nothing more, from her point of view, than a passing whim). And she is right to fear that. She has made a lifelong commitment to that child and she made that commitment honestly, out of nothing more than the goodness of her heart - how is any of this fair to her?

 

When Mr Drew agreed to take the child into his family, yes it was so that Edith could have her close by as she was growing up, but obsessively stalking the family home and disrupting their life was never part of the arrangement and is why this problem has arisen.

[Featherhat]

Yeah it might be one thing if it was understood by both Drewes that they were raising the baby *for* Edith being paid by her for the service until such time as she can claim her or something, but as far as Mrs Drewe knows, she took in a foundling that she started to care for as her own, and raising her with their own resources and suddenly there is (getting crazier) Lady Edith around all hours of the day and night. If Edith wanted to be a mother figure to her at least a better bet might have been to pay a respectable older couple or older spinster to take care of her "ward" that she visited a few times a year, although that would have been much harder to hide.

 

Having her so close at the farm but not able to actually be with her is the torture that Rosamund warned her it would be. Even if they send her to boarding school somehere I wouldn't put it passed Edith to show up renting a cottage in that town at the rate she's going.

[shipperx]

The point remains that Edith only gave Mr Drewe Marigold in the first place under the understanding that it was to be close to and to see the child. Otherwise why would she have removed her from Switzerland? Edith hasn't changed the intended relationship. It began with her intention to be close to the child and Mr Drew understood that. Unfortunately Mrs Drewe was cut out of the agreement from the get go.

The problem is not that Edith has altered the agreement. It's that Mrs Drewe wasn't aware of it or given a choice.

[Llywela]

The point remains that Edith only gave Mr Drewe Marigold in the first place under the understanding that it was to be close to and to see the child. Otherwise why would she have removed her from Switzerland? Edith hasn't changed the intended relationship. It began with her intention to be close to the child and Mr Drew understood that. Unfortunately Mrs Drewe was cut out of the agreement from the get go.

The problem is not that Edith has altered the agreement. It's that Mrs Drewe wasn't aware of it or given a choice.

She asked him to raise the child so that she could see her from time to time, but she has changed that intended relationship. She was calling in every single day, underfoot for what seemed to be hours, fussing over the child, undermining Mrs Drew's authority as Marigold's adoptive mother and preventing the family going about their daily routine. That's not what anyone agreed to - and nor would they, because that situation was unworkable. If she'd set up a regular visit, say once a week, and stuck to it, there would never have been a problem. She has brought this current stalemate on herself. I understand her pain at being separated from her child, but she chose that separation. If she wanted to see Marigold every day and have unlimited access, she should not have asked another family to take her in and raise her as their own. Mr Drew did Edith a massive favour by taking Marigold in and she has abused that generosity.

[Badger]

I think Mrs. Drewe's concern isn't so much that Edith wants to take Marigold away, I think it's that she's worried that Edith thinks of her as something to amuse herself with untl something else comes to occupy her mind.  

 

Also, I think Cora and Robert's situation with Simon Bricker is probably going to turn out much like Violet and Robert's father and Prince Kuragin.  Violet was a pretty young belle when she married Robert's father and was still very attractive in her middle years.  Her husband loved her and was very proud of her, but he had started taking her for granted and treating her as a kind of ornament without a brain in her head.  Then she meets a man who not only finds her beautiful and desireable but also cares about her opinions.  Maybe she doesn't want to have an affair with him, but she loves the way he makes her feel.  

[Featherhat]

The point remains that Edith only gave Mr Drewe Marigold in the first place under the understanding that it was to be close to and to see the child. Otherwise why would she have removed her from Switzerland? Edith hasn't changed the intended relationship. It began with her intention to be close to the child and Mr Drew understood that. Unfortunately Mrs Drewe was cut out of the agreement from the get go.

The problem is not that Edith has altered the agreement. It's that Mrs Drewe wasn't aware of it or given a choice.

 

But it wasn't with the explicit understanding that she would be close to and see the child. That might have been her understanding, but as you say she didn't plan that out with Mr and Mrs Drewe and she probably wasn't being honest with herself that that was what she would want to do. She isn't paying them to be a glorified nanny service to her daughter, she asked Mr Drewe to raise her as his own and keep her secret from his wife, and those facts are causing Mrs Drewe distress. If she wanted to go play Mamma or special "aunty" Edith every day she should have asked them to take her in as a ward that she would pay for or found a couple that were not literally on Downton's doorstep to do the same where she could visit and be emotionally involved every week. But taking the child away from Switzerland only to ask another couple in the village to raise her as their own and then expect to visit for hours on end to bounce her on her (Edith's) lap is the worst of both worlds for everyone at the moment and is starting to seriously disrupt the Drewe family, who don't deserve that.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Featherhat

[ZulaMay]

Oh and one other thing.  The consensus downstairs was that Ms. Bunting was leaving because Tom Branson wouldn't "stand up for her"?  Are you kidding me?  Who would stand up for her?  She was not in the right ever except if you want to strain credulity for that one time time she was told to shut up about the war memorial but even then, she was way out of line by insulting Robert about them "not wanting him" on the project.  I cannot understand this stupid plot device and again, glad she is gone!

It won't magically make everything okay if Edith tells Mrs. Drew the truth.  In cases with adoptive children where the birth mother changes her mind, there is going to be some collateral damage.  Edith gave them the child specifically so she could see her.  She did not give the child up for adoption.  Unfortunately Mrs. Drew was not in on the arrangements so she didn't understand why Edith was always there.  If I were Edith and things soured this way, I would have to do what I could to make sure I had that relationship with my child.  Gregson is probably dead.  She is pretty much over the hill as far as marriage.  This is probably the only child she will ever have and I'm sorry, I think when push comes to shove, the best thing for Marigold in this situation is to be with her mother.  Edith will work it out and the child will be fine in the long run.

Yes, this is how I see it.  I don't think Marigold would be traumatized by a transition to her mother, frankly.  There would be an adjustment period but she'd be fine in the long run because her mother loves her and will make sure of it.  As you said, she did NOT give the child to the Drewes for adoption.  The arrangement was for them to foster her so that Edith could be near her and keep contact with her.  She was paying him for her upkeep, in fact (they discussed it in the CS:  monthly payments).  

 

The whole problem, as you said, is that Mrs. Drewe doesn't know the circumstances. That's why it's such a mess right now. I don't blame her for being frustrated but frankly I think she's being a bit hysterical about it.  Yes, she loves Marigold and she's a good mother but she's far from perfect.  If she's erratic and temperamental about this then she might be about other things too.

 

I don't know what they should do about it.   No solution is perfect.  But I do think she's Edith's child.  Whatever Mrs. Drewe was led to believe, Marigold was in their care but not "theirs." It is essentially a foster situation.  Of course it was unfair not to tell her the truth and if I were her I'd be angry with my husband.  They tried to work out a solution (Edith taking and interest and being a sort of godmother) but Margie wasn't having it and got all sorts of ideas in her head about Edith wanting to steal the  baby.  

 

It's a mess but at the end of the day I am on Edith's side.  The Drewes have each other and three children.  They'll be okay.  Edith should be with her only child, or at the very least not be kept away from her like this.

[shipperx]

How can it have been without the intent to see the child? If she were intending to fully give up the child, she had that situation with the couple in Switzerland. There would have been no reason to change the situation. Her issue wasn't about English being the child's first language. It was about proximity And whatever relationship she could manage with her child, otherwise there was no point to changing anything in the first place.

She had no issue with the Swiss adoptive parents. Edith backed out of that relationship because she wanted the opportunity to have contact with her child.

Mrs Drewe, however, is in the dark to all of this which is why it's a disaster from the get go. Mrs Drewe was not dealt with fairly. But if Edith intended a regular adoption there was no reason for her to have cried off the Swiss adoption. The point of bringing Marigold to Downton was Edith's desire to be near her child.

[kpw801]

How can it have been without the intent to see the child? If she were intending to fully give up the child, she had that situation with the couple in Switzerland. There would have been no reason to change the situation. Her issue wasn't about English being the child's first language. It was about proximity And whatever relationship she could manage with her child, otherwise there was no point to changing anything in the first place.

She had no issue with the Swiss adoptive parents. Edith backed out of that relationship because she wanted the opportunity to have contact with her child.

Mrs Drewe, however, is in the dark to all of this which is why it's a disaster from the get go. Mrs Drewe was not dealt with fairly. But if Edith intended a regular adoption there was no reason for her to have cried off the Swiss adoption. The point of bringing Marigold to Downton was Edith's desire to be near her child.

Amen!!

[bluebonnet]

Yes, this is how I see it.  I don't think Marigold would be traumatized by a transition to her mother, frankly.  There would be an adjustment period but she'd be fine in the long run because her mother loves her and will make sure of it.  As you said, she did NOT give the child to the Drewes for adoption.  The arrangement was for them to foster her so that Edith could be near her and keep contact with her.  She was paying him for her upkeep, in fact (they discussed it in the CS:  monthly payments).  

I think (in real life) Marigold might be incredibly traumatized.  There are already some severe attachment issues to consider.  She spent several weeks with her birth mother, then was whisked off to another family, then whisked away with yet another family.  A child this age might not be old enough to develop long term memory, meaning she likely wouldn't remember these events when she got older.  However, these are some pretty important brain development years.  This lack of stability can have lifelong complications.  Attachment disorders are no joke and are not so easily disappeared with a little bit of bio mommy love.  Further abrupt separation from her caregivers is not in Marigolds best interests, even if the separation places her with the bio family.  Kids that age aren't concerned about biology.    They are concerned with their needs being met by safe and stable caretakers.  

 

That being said, I doubt the show would ever acknowledge the true hardship Marigold faces from all the disruptions in her life so far.  The writers don't think too far ahead with anything and being aware of attachment disorders might be too much for soap opera staff.  

[Featherhat]

How can it have been without the intent to see the child? If she were intending to fully give up the child, she had that situation with the couple in Switzerland. There would have been no reason to change the situation. Her issue wasn't about English being the child's first language. It was about proximity And whatever relationship she could manage with her child, otherwise there was no point to changing anything in the first place.

She had no issue with the Swiss adoptive parents. Edith backed out of that relationship because she wanted the opportunity to have contact with her child.

Mrs Drewe, however, is in the dark to all of this which is why it's a disaster from the get go. Mrs Drewe was not dealt with fairly. But if Edith intended a regular adoption there was no reason for her to have cried off the Swiss adoption. The point of bringing Marigold to Downton was Edith's desire to be near her child.

 

Of course she wanted to see her, watch her grow up and I can't blame her. Bringing her to Downton was very definitely for the desire to be near her. Rosamund warned her of exactly what would happen if she did what she did and she was right. But I do think Edith was kidding herself that she could accept it better than she is now.

 

But who says Mrs Drewe would have consented if she knew Lady Edith was the mother from the start and was going to be causing the disruption she is now?

 

Edith wanted, not necessarily to have her cake and eat it, but she isn't prepared (yet) to claim the child has hers to her family and have both of them face the consequences, nor is she prepared to "just" be her "godmother" from the Big House who will make sure she has opportunities in live. She wants to be there in Mrs Drewe's kitchen with Marigold on her knee and then go back to Downton and play the good spinster (to an extent), and that is doing no one any good right now.  Sure they have 3 children but that just means they (he) offered Marigold a place in their home when they didn't "need" to because they weren't a desperate childless couple. That they are a generous couple who aren't simply Marigold's nannies. Mrs Drewe isn't exactly acting rationally but people do tend to get upset when they perceive people barging into their territory and trying to dictate terms, both "mothers" are doing that right now

 

I do feel sorry for Edith, there were no great solutions and even if she claimed Marigold and took her back to Downton and dared her parents to throw them out, she and Marigold would still have an even tougher time of it than Sybbie and Tom, and not just in aristocratic society.

 

If she wants to be Marigold's mother then she should head to America a claim to be a widow. The "bluebood" east coast society is probably not going to be much more welcoming of a lady with an acknowledged illegitimate child than England would be, but she doesn't have to be Lady Edith in America, she could seek out literary types that don't care as much. And even if she went to her grandmother in Chicago, whilst gossip might follow it would be easier to fudge some details.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Featherhat

[kpw801]

In real life it would cause all sorts of problems for Edith to whisk her llve child away, but we are (at least I am) watching Downton Abbey for pure escapism and how many people in "real life" have had as many hard knocks as Lady Edith or as many financial windfalls as the Crawleys.  I want to see Edith with her child and I want a fanciful ending.  However I doubt Julian Fellowes is going to give us that.  After all, we thought after Bates was released from prison, he and Anna would live happily ever after and it didn't happen.  We thought when Michael Gregson went abroad to get his divorce Edith would finally have her happily ever after.  Shucks Julian even teased us with allowing Edith to become glamorous and bohemian.  Soon as that happened she was sad sack Edith again.  REal life is a bit#h but Edith has a curse on her or something!

Edited October 21, 2014 by kpw801

[DianeDobbler]

The problem IMO is that on the Drewe side, the plot has escalated into completely unbelieveable hysteria. When Mr. Drewe told Edith that Mrs. Drew would give up the farm and move away if Edith kept coming around, it was oh please time to the millionth power. That's absolutely insane writing.

 

Just about as insane as Edith, who has been googly and droopy and teary over Marigold, visiting her daily, bringing round her aunt, a great lady, and Mrs. Drew going "She just wants the child as a play thing for the entire house!" Right, because there aren't already two cute kids up there. What a ridiculous, unbelieveable way they're writing Mrs. Drew. A CARTOON would have Mrs. Drew already strongly suspect and be pretty damn sure that Edith was the mother, and feel confirmed when Aunt Rosemund came calling. If Mrs. Drew suspected Mr. Drew might be the daddy, that's another thing, depending on Mr. Drew's past behavior. But moving away from the farm? This single lady of childbearing age can't stay away from Marigold and brings another family member to meet her - Mrs. Drew doesn't clue in? She and her husband are married, and married for some years. The only conversations they have are hysterics and ultimatums? There's no point where Mrs. Drew might has said to Mr. Drew - what's your take on this lady? You know her better than I. Lonely? Crazy? Or is she the mother, as looks like from where I'm sitting.

 

No. Because Fellowes has written this like a lunatic.

 

I get the idea is to jeopardize Edith's position, talk about scandal and all that. The writing for Mrs. Drew is batsh*t, that's the problem.

 

And taking present-day psychology out of it, I think that a woman like Mrs. Drew, who works her arse off and has other kids, could just as plausibly be presented as a person thrilled to pieces the lady of the house is so interested, and might even suggest her taking little Marigold up there from time to time, if it makes her happy and if she's not speaking out of turn. They don't have help, they're on a farm, Marigold isn't their daughter, and a child that age needs a lot of supervision. I just feel I've read so many books and stories of vaguely similar situations and how Fellowes is writing this makes zero sense with Mrs. Drew having nineteen conniptions about Lady Edith spending so much time with a kid they agreed to raise just to help out even though they're already pressed.

 

I actually had the thought today that maybe they'll let Isobel marry Lord Merton, but then I'm thinking, nope, the budget isn't going to spring for a drafty old house for Isobel. She'll kindly turn him down, Violet will be all "are you sure" and be secretly thrilled, because the actual reason she doesn't want Isobel marrying is fear of losing Isobel.

Edited October 21, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[gator12]

As far as Mrs. Drewes is concern Marigold is her daughter 

Edith should never have giving her up and face the consequences of being a single mother who was not a window at that time or actually gave her up without interference. What she's doing is just messing with people lives, including her daughter

Edited October 21, 2014 by gator12

[Camera One]

This episode was fine, but I don't think I enjoyed it as much as the last few.  

 

I thought with Thomas's new storyline, he would take a break from being such a jerk.  Guess not.  

 

I'm happy for Mrs. Patmore getting some money.  I would have liked to see her take a look at the house.  The placating of Carson could have been a bit more amusing than it turned out to be.

 

I didn't like how they used Daisy to prop up Ms. Bunting.  So she was in love with Tom?  Yeah, whatever.  The goodbye scenes were a waste of time since I couldn't care less she was leaving.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

And the other bad rubbish, the art dealer.  What a creep going into Cora's bedroom.  I liked his flirting with Cora in the last few episodes, but refusing to leave her room when asked multiple times was going too far.  

 

Rose and the new guy was alright.  This part of the episode felt disjointed from the rest, and happened a bit too fast.  

 

I like Isobel with Lord Morton but I like the Doctor as well.  

 

If Mabel goes back to Gillingham, then we won't get the Gillingham-stalker storyline, so that would be nice.  Blake still feels like a total slimeball, though.

 

I really don't understand how Violet and Rosamund plans to take Marigold away from the Drewes and send her to France.  Why do they have the impression that Mrs. Drewe would let them take the girl?  And wouldn't that make the "explosive" situation even worse?  

[Andorra]

I agree with Mrs Drew being written as hysterical. I'm sorry, I'm a mother, too and I would be thrilled to have a Babysitter from time to time. Especially since Mrs Drewe has much more work to do than I have! Why did they not just settle on one day a week where Edith could watch Marigold when the godmother scheme was set up? That would surely not traumatize the child! Or "unsettle" it, as Mrs Drewe puts it.

 

It's totally OTT that Mrs Drewe reacts that way and both Mr. Drewe and Edith are written as stupid and as if they never think beyond the next day.

 

She should have made a plan with Mr. Drewe in the first place: You take care of the Baby, you get money for it, I will be the godmother and I have weekly visits. Perfect. Them just doing everything without ever thinking about the consequences is ridiculous IMO.

[Llywela]

See, I'm coming from a different place. My youngest sister is adopted, but before she was adopted my parents fostered her for four years, from infancy, and her birth mother had access during that time. In that scenario, we all knew up front that the mother would be visiting - in fact, the goal for a long time was to get the two of them back together - but even so those sporadic visits were extremely disruptive and were confusing for the baby, as she reached an age where she was becoming aware of the people around her and was forming attachments, and those visits were not part of her regular routine, because there was nothing routine about them. The mother would just turn up if she felt like it, or not if she didn't. And despite not being the slightest bit interested in parenting her child, despite having asked my parents to adopt her, that woman still up and snatched her one day and it took two weeks to get the baby back - she was 13 months old at the time, but years later was still talking about being taken and the things that had happened during those two weeks, because she remembered it, the event made a deep impression on her. Even very small children can be deeply traumatised by this kind of thing. The adoption took as long as it did to go through because although it was what the mother wanted for her daughter, she also harboured a fantasy that in a few years time she might be ready to be a parent - what she really wanted was to put her child on ice for a few years and then pick her up again when it was convenient for her. But children don't work like that. They need stability. And 'unsettled' is exactly the right word to use for a child whose routine is being disrupted and is reacting badly to that, so I'm not sure why it is seen as such an unusual thing to say.

 

I agree that Edith should have set up a clear and consistent arrangement for access up front. That would have avoided all this trouble. But I don't agree that Mrs Drew is being hysterical. Edith has been shown to be obsessive about seeing Marigold, turning up without warning at all hours of the day. We have seen that only rarely have her visits provided Mrs Drew with a babysitter while she got on with her work - more often, she has been kept from her daily routine by a visitor she must defer to, yet who basically ignores everyone else in the house to obsess over the baby. We have also seen that she doesn't feel comfortable leaving Edith alone with Marigold because she's afraid she will abduct her, so babysitting while she does the housework is out of the question.

 

The trouble is that the entire scheme was half-baked from the start. Edith had a romantic notion in her head that she could have her cake and eat it too, that she could treat this tenant family as a tool, using them to raise Marigold as part of their family so that she'd have a loving home, while keeping her near enough that Edith could play at still being her mother as well. But that was never going to work, especially as Mrs Drew wasn't in on the plan. Marigold is either part of their family or she isn't, half-measures don't help anyone. She's at a vulnerable age and needs stability. The Drews may be tenants and may be grateful to the Crawleys, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to set boundaries around their family life. Being rich and belonging to the big house doesn't mean any of the Crawleys get to play games with their lives for their own gratification.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Llywela

[Andorra]

But it wasn't Edith's fault that Mrs Drewe wasn't in on the plan. It was Mr. Drewe's fault. If the conditions had been clear from the beginning all those problems wouldn't have been there IMO. Edith could have been the nice "aunt" from the Abbey who takes an interest in the child and may see her on a regular basis. The child would never have known that she's really the mother. It could have been the perfect solution for Edith's problem if they just had thought 5 minutes about how they were going to do it. Instead they all just behave like brainless nerve-bundles. I think it is stupidly written, sorry.

 

Also "adoption" like we have today, didn't exist to that time. And people were generally far less sentimental about their children than they are today. Look at how George and Sybbie are brought up mainly by a nanny. In poorer family it wasn't a nanny but the older siblings. Mothers didn't sit down with their children and play with them, they just tagged them along while they were working 24/7. So a fairy godmother from the Abbey who would a) support them with money and b) spend a little time with the child every week wouldn't have been a nuisance. And I bet Mrs Drewe wouldn't have spared a thought about children trauma in real life. She probably never heard of it.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Andorra

[Llywela]

She may not have heard of trauma, but if she's having trouble settling Marigold because she's been over excited by Edith fussing over her for hours, or if she is grizzly all evening because she missed her nap because Edith showed up unannounced and insisted on seeing her, that's something Mrs Drew will be very aware of, because she's the one picking up the pieces afterward, she's the primary carer whose life this is having an impact on. We do discredit to the people of the past by calling them 'less sentimental' about their children than we are today. This isn't the dark ages we're talking about. It was the 1920s, it's not that long ago. I know from my own family history how close families could be at that time, and poorer families especially were a lot closer than rich ones, because they lived cheek by jowl and were intimately aware of one another. They may not have had the kind of education we have today, they may not have been up to speed on the latest psychology, but they knew when something was wrong with their kids.

 

You are right that a fairy godmother from the Abbey offering a bit of support and wanting to spend a little time with the child perhaps once a week wouldn't be a nuisance. The problem is that that is not what was happening. Edith was there all the time, underfoot. If she'd had just a little restraint, they could all have settled into a nice, comfortable routine, but because she let her heart rule her head, this mess has arisen.

 

It is stupidly written. But my sympathy still rests primarily with Mrs Drew because she is the only one being wholly honest in the whole thing. She doesn't have all the facts, she's just trying to do what's best for her family, which has been meddled with by an outsider for her own ends. It's a classic case of the rich thinking they own the poor, who exist to serve them, that they aren't people with minds and feelings of their own.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Llywela