Ellen's Design Challenge - General Discussion

[candall]

I don't think they should have reshot the celebration, but they should have edited out the Tim confetti party, talked about the problem, and then had a separate ceremony for Katie.  I thought the whole announcement in front of a cheering crowd was stupid to being with.  This isn't a high school talent show. 

That is indeed a plausible alternative.  They could have come back from the commercial break and had an Ellen Moment announcing that the original winning piece had been determined to be out of the running and, ta-dah! Katie is getting the title.  Cue the confetti cannon.  Or not.

 

P.S.  If you want to see laughable overkill, check out Next Food Network Star, where the winner is lately shuffled off to one 30-minute show at 3a.m.  By the confetti and strobe lights, you'd think they were announcing The Second Coming.

[GaT]

Katie gets some credit for going outside her acrylic comfort zone. 

She didn't, the desk had a piece of acrylic that slid out from the side.

 

I thought the whole announcement in front of a cheering crowd was stupid to being with.  This isn't a high school talent show. 

Did they ever explain who those people were? When they first showed them, I thought they must be the contestants friends & family, but there were just too many people for that. It seemed really strange to suddenly have an audience of strangers there for the winner's reveal when they hadn't been there for the competition.

Edited March 5, 2015 by GaT

[Wings]

She didn't, the desk had a piece of acrylic that slide out from the side.

 

Did they ever explain who those people were? When they first showed them, I thought they must be the contestants friends & family, but there were just too many people for that. It seemed really strange to suddenly have an audience of strangers there for the winner's reveal when they hadn't been there for the competition.

 

 

They said there were furniture experts (something to that effect) in the audience. 

[GaT]

They said there were furniture experts (something to that effect) in the audience. 

"furniture experts"? What does that mean? People who have bought furniture on the Wayfair web site?

[Wings]

"furniture experts"? What does that mean? People who have bought furniture on the Wayfair web site?

 

 

Those were not the exact words thus, my parenthetical comment of "something to that effect."  People who knew a thing or 2 about furniture.  I do not remember the phrasing they used. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by wings707

[Guest]

Usually reality shows hire extras to stand around and be a live audience for results/finales.  They often pepper in a few friends, family and prior contestants, but mostly it's just people paid to stand there and feign interest.  

[Rhetorica]

Those were not the exact words thus, my parenthetical comment of "something to that effect." People who knew a thing or 2 about furniture. I do not remember the phrasing they used.

I can't remember verbatim, either. But you're right. It was professionals from the industry in the audience. I assume that may have been where the investigation into Tim's piece began.

[NYGirl]

Here is Tim's comment on Facebook today.  What a class act:

 

"Hi to all my family, friends, fans, and even a few foes. As most are aware, after winning Ellen's Design Challenge I was disqualified. The ending was shocking and painful with not only the loss of $100,000 and the title "Winner of the first season of Ellen's Design Challenge" but also in disappointing so many of my fans and followers. Ellen Degeneres @TheEllenShow invited me on her show for an opportunity to tell my story. See me today on her network TV show The Ellen Degeneres Show (I am on just before Vince Vaughn). I love you all and cannot thank you enough for the outpouring of love, support and kind words. I have shed many tears over the last several days reading all your thousands of uplifting messages. Based on the rules set forth and at the soul discretion of the producers, the powers that be have determined that Katie Stout @ummmsmile is the winner, fair and square, and I ask only that we all follow the example set by both Chip @ChipWade and I over the course of these many challenges and not "lash out" with harsh commentary but instead "reach out" and help one another.
Eternally grateful,
Tim"

[Frost]

That's still pretty ambiguous.  Did he not realize that original and creative meant not copying someone else's design?  Did Chip know Tim's design was directly based off another piece?  I'm not going to drive up Ellen's talk show ratings (not that I'm being counted, I'm sure) by tuning in to hear what happened on another one of her shows.  This incestuous self promotion is getting on my nerves.

[Guest]

I think "copying" is a spectrum thing, not a black or white thing.  Other people have made "cow tables" and acrylic desks but Katie's weren't close enough to them to be considered copies (or no one researched each piece each contestant made).  I'm not saying Tim's wasn't too close, just that it's a judgment call.  

[Rhetorica]

I think "copying" is a spectrum thing, not a black or white thing. Other people have made "cow tables" and acrylic desks but Katie's weren't close enough to them to be considered copies (or no one researched each piece each contestant made). I'm not saying Tim's wasn't too close, just that it's a judgment call.

The difference is that Katie didn't design a cow table. It became that way after a mistake she made. Hey, I loved Tim's designs and wanted him to win. But he clearly stole the design and even talked about it in the car with Chip. I hope someone watches Ellen and reports in.

[Guest]

I know, I'm not saying Katie copied other designs or that Tim's was unique enough.  Just that we've all seen all kinds of furniture designs, these guys probably tons if they read trade magazines and all, and our own ideas are influenced by them.  It's just a matter of when does 'influence' become 'copying', and I think that's a call for the judges.  I'll reserve judgment until I see what Tim says today but I feel like if he truly meant to hide that it was like another designer's piece, he wouldn't have been talking about making it enough 'his own design not some European designer's' to Chip and on camera.  

 

I don't mind him losing the win but I think he made a bad judgment call more than cheated.  But we'll see what he says.  

 

I bet the exposure will make him more money in furniture sales than he lost.  

[mlp]

 

I feel like if he truly meant to hide that it was like another designer's piece, he wouldn't have been talking about making it enough 'his own design not some European designer's' to Chip and on camera.

 

That's exactly why I said upthread that I think Tim thought that adapting a design to his own style was original enough and that he told Chip about it himself.  Otherwise, the very oddly edited conversation in the car makes no sense.  He knew he was being filmed.  Also, he's clearly not stupid.

 

Katie took the concept of "armoire" and made one that was huge and bright red and she was praised for the monstrosity.  I understand that "armoire" is less specific that the original of Tim's table but I'm not sure the departure from "variation on a theme" to "copy" is clear enough in this case.

[GaT]

Here is Tim's comment on Facebook today.  What a class act:

 

"Hi to all my family, friends, fans, and even a few foes. As most are aware, after winning Ellen's Design Challenge I was disqualified. The ending was shocking and painful with not only the loss of $100,000 and the title "Winner of the first season of Ellen's Design Challenge" but also in disappointing so many of my fans and followers. Ellen Degeneres @TheEllenShow invited me on her show for an opportunity to tell my story. See me today on her network TV show The Ellen Degeneres Show (I am on just before Vince Vaughn). I love you all and cannot thank you enough for the outpouring of love, support and kind words. I have shed many tears over the last several days reading all your thousands of uplifting messages. Based on the rules set forth and at the soul discretion of the producers, the powers that be have determined that Katie Stout @ummmsmile is the winner, fair and square, and I ask only that we all follow the example set by both Chip @ChipWade and I over the course of these many challenges and not "lash out" with harsh commentary but instead "reach out" and help one another.

Eternally grateful,

Tim"

It's the phrase "soul discretion of the producers" that makes me suspicious.

 

I think "copying" is a spectrum thing, not a black or white thing.  Other people have made "cow tables" and acrylic desks but Katie's weren't close enough to them to be considered copies (or no one researched each piece each contestant made).  I'm not saying Tim's wasn't too close, just that it's a judgment call.  

This is the first image you get if you Google "cow table" . It's such a basic concept that anything made at this point by anyone would have to be considered a copy.

[candall]

I'm sitting here waiting for Tim to come out on The Ellen Show--Vince Vaughn is on first.  It occurs to me that I'm more than willing to give Tim the benefit of the doubt just because I found him likeable and I admired his work product.  (Minus the couch.)  Not sure I'd feel so generous if it had been Katie who was disqualified.

 

But here's something else:  I had a hard time conjuring up the mental image of Katie's final piece.  Three slabs of acrylic?  No, that was a different challenge. . . . . . . . . . . .oh, wait. . . .I remember the legs were big PVC pipes. . . . . . .mmm. . . .purple wood. . . .bing!  There it is.

 

On the other hand, I could probably draw Tim's big console in my sleep because I admired it so much, with the metal legs that strapped around the body, the end pieces looking like wooden bricks, the raised overhang center part (which I actually didn't care for.)

 

Shut UP, Vince.

[candall]

Okay.  So he must have whispered in her ear when they hugged that he was nervous because Ellen starts out saying she's probably more nervous than he is because she feels so badly about this.

 

He says he doesn't know how this could have happened, that he's never heard of that designer and, to his recollection, has never seen that piece of furniture before.  But, he says, "the similarities are quite compelling" and he accepts the decision that was made and recognizes Katie as the winner.

 

He says that to prepare for the show, and in the 20 years of his career, he looked at millions and millions of pieces of furniture and maybe that piece got lodged in his head, but he can only say with certainty that when he looked at the lumber, he "had a flash of a piece of furniture that would be brilliant for this show and I owned it.  Chip and I built a fantastic, wonderful piece of furniture and it's disappointing how this whole thing worked out.   And it's been taxing on me, of course." 

 

Ellen says there was an anonymous tip and then talks about how most furniture is derivative of something, chairs, tables, etc.  She says Tim helped other people on the show when he didn't have to, she thinks he's talented and, as she said to him privately on the phone, she will say publicly--that she wants to work with him again.

 

Chip's in the audience and says it was a blessing to get called up and paired with such a talented designer.  And now they hang out together. "A joy and an honor."

 

Ellen notes that Mark went home on the first week and he was crazy talented and should have lasted longer, but it's a competition show.

 

Somewhere in there, Tim praises Ellen for getting the whole show going, (so I guess she did more than lend her name to the project.)  She admires not just his vision, but his craftsmanship as a builder. 

 

Interview ends with:   Ellen knows that was hard for Tim and she's glad he had a chance to come on and explain his side of it.  Tim says thanks and smiles, but looks pretty miserable.  Commercial break.

 

 

[Guest]

Thanks.  I was hoping she'd announce they both got the winnings, to be fair.  And I wish he'd explained what he meant with the comment to Chip about "some European designer", though I guess many furniture designers are European, and his Western style stuff is very much not (usually).

 

I'm kind of annoyed they assume he's lying about having no recollection of seeing the other table.  Sure, the similarities are striking but it's furniture, not an English essay, how many variations are there on it all?   

Edited March 5, 2015 by Guest

[Rhetorica]

He's a class act. I hate the show ended this way but I think, ethically, they had to do it. What they didn't have to do was keep Katie til the finale two. I blame the Wayfare girl. If I need furniture, I would contact Tim. Of course, he's probably out of my price range.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Rhetorica

[Lola16]

I saw the Ellen interview and it was disappointing to me.  I didn't see the finale but based on what has been recapped here, Tim talked about making a design his own and some European designer.  Now he can't pronounce the guy's last name (if he didn't know it when the show was filming, I'm sure he learned of it when the award was stripped from him) and doesn't recall trying to copy anything.  He had a vision.  OK.  He went down severely in my estimation.

[SnarkKitty]

Just watched my recording, and errmm.... not so much convinced. He's never heard of the designer, but presciently spoke of the design not looking like something designed by a foreign designer (paraphrased.) He's seen millions of designs and doesn't remember seeing that one, but somehow it lodged in his head. I dunno. The piece is just too close to be something you saw, thought, hey, that's cool -- and then replicate it down to the smallest detail (side covers sliding over drawers) and yet have no recollection of having seen it? It didn't even look to me like Tim believed it himself.

 

Now, if he had said his understanding was he could use something he was inspired by, and thought he put enough of his own spin on it, but the judges disagreed - that I could buy. But his explanation ... yeah, no.

 

I've seen thousands of pieces of furniture and decor scenarios as a lifelong reno junkie, and anything I emulate, is because I remember seeing it and how cool it was. If it wasn't strong enough to remember seeing, it certainly didn't leave enough of an impression to copy down to the smallest details. Just sayin'.

 

Anyway, that's over. And he got national attention, so no tears for Tim!

[candall]

I've seen that German name a couple dozen times by now and had no idea you'd pronounce it "shack." 

********

 

I can easily believe two woodworkers looked at a tidy rectangle of stacked lumber and chose to put that stack on legs--Schacht with 4x4's and Tim with 2x4's.  I could see that the horizontal lines of the separate boards would invite making invisible vertical cuts so parts could be slid back and forth to reveal clever hidey holes.  You'd want to have the middle top lift up or the middle front drop down.  If you chose to raise the lid, it would be natural to add a "lip" to break up the horizontal eyeline in the front. 

 

I thought Tim's V-shape trestle legs leading to metal straps around the "lumber stack" were much more creative than Schacht's legs that just went straight up, over the top and down the back.

 

So the main (only?) damning part of "the compelling similarities" is that, instead of simple sliding panels, the entire sleeve of lumber pulls out from both ends--but that's tough to overlook.  I think it might even take two people to pull the thing apart.

 

Oh well, I'm tired of thinking about it.  We've all made mistakes--I'm grateful mine weren't televised.

Edited March 6, 2015 by candall

[Guest]

Yeah, I feel like Tim and Katie will be fine.  But the show left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm taking Ellen off my DVR, and looking for Framework.  

[Lola16]

  It didn't even look to me like Tim believed it himself.

 

Now, if he had said his understanding was he could use something he was inspired by, and thought he put enough of his own spin on it, but the judges disagreed - that I could buy. But his explanation ... yeah, no.

 

Tim hung his head during most of the interview and could barely look at Ellen.  I wish he was more truthful.  On the finale he says that he needs to make it his own and not some European designer's.  So why now claim it was 100% his own?  So disingenuous.  And what a sucky way for Katie to win.

[Mz Anthrope]

My thoughts

• I didn't see Katie doing much work *at all* on any of her projects.  She let her carpenter do most of it and freaked on what she was supposed to complete, so he ended up helping her as well.    Read:  To me, she did very little except conceptualize and therefor didn't build anything
• I was over the moon Tim won as I loved his project and its innovation.  Crushed to see he'd been disqualified.  I get where they made that decision, and not knowing if Tim had ever seen anything like that (although given the work he does, I am sure he's always researching for ideas and likely could have seen that project as it matches his style and level of surprise he likes in his work), I get it, but why couldn't it have been given to Gaspar instead of Katie?!
• Ellen's appearances were awkward, if I were being kind in my take on them.  To me, it looked as if her appearances there were solely to justify the competition being in her name.  The jokes were horrible, the input from her stilted and any other purpose for being there not well defined.
• The focus on all things girlie.  Tim had 'masculine' tossed around each of his projects as if that was a bad thing.  Never heard word one about anything her making not being seen in a man's home  - that it would be too feminine to be considered for use in many homes.  Or, in my opinion, too freaking childish and useless, but... I get Wayfair put this out, and they are marketing to women, but their comments to Tim were that his works were too targeted to go into most homes.

 

I don't know that I'd watch another season of this series.  The amount of talent which was sloughed off with Katie making it to the end was insulting, in my opinion.  I'd MUCH rather have Tim's disqualifications go to Gaspar.

[Kromm]

Yeah, I feel like Tim and Katie will be fine.  But the show left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm taking Ellen off my DVR, and looking for Framework.  

Don't.  It's even worse.

[Kromm]

I'm hoping they awarded both of them the $100k.  It seems fair.  I don't think Tim purposely cheated, just misinterpreted their idea of 'original'.  Though it makes a better reality tv story to say one was eliminated and one was the (only) winner.  

There's really no point in holding a contest if you don't have and apply rules though.  Willingly or accidentally it doesn't change that his piece didn't properly follow the rules.  Misinterpretation is no excuse--people are voted off shows like The Amazing Race, for example, all the time for not properly reading clues or following instructions.

[xingcat]

 

I didn't see Katie doing much work *at all* on any of her projects.  She let her carpenter do most of it and freaked on what she was supposed to complete, so he ended up helping her as well.    Read:  To me, she did very little except conceptualize and therefor didn't build anything

 

That's why it's a design challenge. I mean, it's good for a designer to be able to build, but many designers don't execute. Project Runway really muddled the waters, which makes for good TV, but has a lot less to do with the actual job of designing than drama.

[Guest]

There's really no point in holding a contest if you don't have and apply rules though.  Willingly or accidentally it doesn't change that his piece didn't properly follow the rules.  Misinterpretation is no excuse--people are voted off shows like The Amazing Race, for example, all the time for not properly reading clues or following instructions.

 

 

But whether or not he followed the rules is a judgment call.  It's not like taking a cab to the pit stop when the clue told you to walk.  And when people do that on TAR they're not disqualified, they get a penalty.  

Edited March 7, 2015 by Guest

[staphdude]

Don't.  It's even worse.

I don't know...I started on Framework and by comparison I feel it is far superior to this train wreck. Granted I have probably built up an immunity from all the Ink master episodes I've watched, but Ellen's judges and general tone/pacing of this show was horrid.

[auntjess]

I've watched the last 3 episodes of Framework, and like it better in some ways.
Common and the judges are better, and I don't know the contestants enough to care.

They're mostly pretty jerky, so evenly matched.

[Guest]

I decided to watch the spot on Ellen before deleting it.  I didn't think Tim was avoiding eye contact at all.  He did seem nervous and uncomfortable.  I have a suspicion that lawyers for each gave them strict instructions on what they could and couldn't say, and that was part of their careful speech back and forth.  

 

I was relieved to see Ellen did say she knew Tim and didn't think he purposely did anything wrong.  Though how you can copy another design accidentally, I have no idea.  Unless he thought he made it his own enough, but that wasn't his story.  

 

I also was struck that she repeatedly mentioned working with him and Chip in the future and then showed his desk, bar and dining table on screen and specifically said they were working on providing Tim's pieces he designed on the show for people to buy.  I wonder if Wayfair wanted Tim disqualified but Ellen didn't, and so she's taking up on selling his pieces.

 

I stumbled upon this, which I hope is a typo on Tim's web site.  Note the cash prize.  

http://westernheritagefurniture.com/news/tim-mcclellan-ellens-design-challenge/

 

Why did the show bill Tim as being from Durango, CO?  Local news and his web site say he lives and works in Jerome, AZ.  

[Puffaroo]

I don't know...I started on Framework and by comparison I feel it is far superior to this train wreck. Granted I have probably built up an immunity from all the Ink master episodes I've watched, but Ellen's judges and general tone/pacing of this show was horrid.

 

I totally agree.  Framework is, I hope, a work in progress and will improve if it comes back, preferably by reducing or eliminating the number of team challenges. I like that the designers have to do their own work (references to Katie not doing much, for instance -- that wouldn't fly on Framework).  I strongly advise recording it and watching it later, so you can fast-forward past any smack talk if you wish. 

[Lola16]

Here's a clip of the Ellen interview for those who didn't see it:

 

http://www.ellentv.com/videos/0-phtpq5tg/

Tim stares at his hands and the coffee table for most of it.

 

What explains what Tim said in the finale about making the design his own? 

 

I get that Ellen likes him, most viewers did but I'm very disappointed in this interview especially after he seemed to take some ownership before.

[Kromm]

He may be a nice guy, but that doesn't mean he isn't a liar--someone who thought he could get away with something because who'd even think the connection would be made?  100K is a lot of money.  The designs are too close, and while someone might retain a certain shape, some features, etc. having it be virtually identical other than some minor elements dictated by different materials isn't any kind of accident.  And the show was called "Ellen's Design Challenge" not "Ellen's Carpentry Challenge" (and they were given carpenters to boot).  Him misinterpreting the final brief makes no sense either, if that's what some are thinking, because even if it HAD been worded badly (it wasn't) the name of the damn show and what he'd been doing on the show for weeks was kind of a tipoff too.  I really do think this is the worst case. He cheated.  Got caught.  And now is trying to preserve some rep by lying about it.  Nice guy or not.

 

Ellen rightly or wrongly feels sorry for the guy nonetheless, although I think she's probably fibbing herself a bit claiming she totally believes him.  Nevertheless, even if rumors would have gotten out, we all know they could have simply dropped the footage with the crowd at Ellen's studio into the garbage and shot another ending. They didn't even have to lie totally.  We could have seen the judges telling the contestants there would be a deliberation, then gone straight to Ellen inviting Katie to her studio (with no crowd) and simply by briefing Katie beforehand (and not involving Tim at all--implying that the loser was off somewhere simply being a loser) erased this whole thing, other than some rumors that would have played on the web for a single newscycle then been gone.  But they didn't do this. Ellen tried to navigate some middle road, where she abstained from calling Tim a liar, gave some platitudes about how great he is, but showed all the footage they shot anyway. I can't say I'm entirely impressed, because the very act of NOT calling him out is kind of a lie, but I do understand why she doesn't want to do that.  

 

Framework though... don't rely on that for "reality".  There's a ton of fakery going on there--it's just the more typical reality show fakery we're used to with coached shit-talking and bad behavior, and result manipulation to keep certain characters in who gave "good TV".

 

Tim stares at his hands and the coffee table for most of it..

I doubt anyone here is an expert at body language, or micro-expressions, or both, but I don't think any special knowledge is necessary to see not only shame, but deception in what he's saying in that segment. Edited March 7, 2015 by Kromm

[Kromm]

By the way, that thing around Katie's neck (a green plastic toy chain holding a white plastic "S" shape, basically--or maybe it's plastic covered metal chain from a swingset or something like that) when she was called back to Ellen's studio?  I just noticed that.  Eww.  Really nobody with taste that bad should have been anywhere NEAR a design finale.

 

Wait... here's it is.  (ugh)  And I also just noticed the horrible ombre dye job on the hair too.

 

Edited March 7, 2015 by Kromm

[mlp]

 

Framework though... don't rely on that for "reality".  There's a ton of fakery going on there--it's just the more typical reality show fakery we're used to with coached shit-talking and bad behavior, and result manipulation to keep certain characters in who gave "good TV".

 

I'm sorry to do this, Kromm, because I liked Tim but I have to agree with you.  If he had come out and said he was sorry but he'd thought that adapting a piece he'd seen to his own style was original enough, I would have accepted that.  His excuse and abject contrition just come across as phony. 

 

Ellen did herself no favors either.  Prior to this show,  I had no real opinion of her either way because I'd never watched her show.  After watching her goofy act when she showed up on the show and then seeing how she handled/mishandled the aftermath, I have no respect for her.

 

 

Really nobody with taste that bad should have been anywhere NEAR a design finale.

 

Seriously.  Everything about Katie from the awful voice to "arty" clothes to the hair and flirtatious mannerisms says immaturity and attention-seeking.  Maybe she'll grow out of it.  She's still very young.

[Guest]

I doubt anyone here is an expert at body language, or micro-expressions, or both, but I don't think any special knowledge is necessary to see not only shame, but deception in what he's saying in that segment.

You can't actually "see" deception.  You can interpret what you see however you want, though.  Not everyone interprets it the same as you.  He looks uncomfortable but who wouldn't be in that situation?  Ellen looks uncomfortable, too.  Does that mean she too is deceiving viewers?  

 

I still think Tim and Ellen both are walking a fine line there based on legal advice, and I suspect Wayfair was behind the disqualification decision and neither of them agree with it but they agreed to not make a stink and try to make the best of a shitty situation.  I doubt Ellen and Chip Wade would be standing up for Tim's honor and working with him in the future if they believed he cheated and was lying about it now.  

[Lola16]

 

Everything about Katie from the awful voice to "arty" clothes to the hair and flirtatious mannerisms says immaturity and attention-seeking.  Maybe she'll grow out of it.  She's still very young.

Katie's 25.   She's not all that young.  She plays at it.  With her crafty home ec clothes to her valley girl vocal fry to her mannerisms to her box of crayons.

 

Saw the finale.  Katie's table was the best piece she's done in my opinion.  She contributed more to this design than any other.  Usually her carpenter comes up with the actual design and she does a general concept.  As usual, she didn't seem to contribute any actual labor.  Tim's piece looked like a wooden bar-b-que grill on a saw horse.  While his version looked better than the original, it wasn't overly practical.

[Kromm]

You can't actually "see" deception.  You can interpret what you see however you want, though.  Not everyone interprets it the same as you.  He looks uncomfortable but who wouldn't be in that situation?  Ellen looks uncomfortable, too.  Does that mean she too is deceiving viewers?   

You're free to debate my personal qualifications to read body language or micro-expressions, because of course I'm anonymous.  But it also seems like you're dismissing the entire idea of there being ANY consistency and saying it's always totally subjective.  I can't say I agree. We wouldn't have survived very long as a species if there weren't clear and consistent non-verbal cues between all of us.  Language evolved AFTER we as a species mastered those (and it's why dogs, of all species, get along so well with us, because they can read those things from us too).

 

Nothing we saw is provable in court or anything, but I still believe that he showed more than generic discomfort at a weird situation.  In addition to the body language and expressions, I suppose we can also debate his statement and verbal cues (which sounded like it was straight up rehearsed).  Which yes, he might have cause to do anyway, but when something is so carefully parsed, there's usually a reason.

I doubt Ellen and Chip Wade would be standing up for Tim's honor and working with him in the future if they believed he cheated and was lying about it now.  

Who says they'll follow through though?  Even without it being a deliberate lie, it's easy to make a kind of "we'll work with you" statement as a kind of platitude. Or even if they do, there's no debate over the quality of his craftsmanship.  Ellen wouldn't be buying a piece from him for it's market or resale value, she'd be buying it to use as a couch or a table, and there'd be no harm in employing him no matter what he might have done, because in a year nobody will even remember this show ever existed (I doubt they'll do another season).  

[Guest]

I do agree they probably won't do another season (at least not the Ellen/Wayfair combo), and that Ellen would probably buy Tim's pieces for her own home.  

 

But she said they were working to make his tv show pieces for sale for others to buy.  That's pretty specific.  

 

And Chip practically came out and said, "I don't think Tim did anything wrong", and he was closest to the situation.  Ellen did say she didn't believe he would copy.

 

It's all good.  If we all agreed what would we discuss here?  

 

 

[Rhetorica]

I need to chime in here. I am an expert at body language, or as we call it, Nonverbal Communication. You can interpret Nonverbal if you know what you're looking for; however, you must also know the person well to interpret. That's how parents read their children. Remember, there are certain constants in cultures. In one culture it's considered rude NOT to make eye contact, in others it's considered rude TO make eye contact. So it's not an exact Science. Since I hadn't, I watched the clip. I've only "known" Tim for six weeks so my findings are based on that as well as the seven elements of NV. He did start the interview very nervous, as expected. He moved a lot trying to find a comfortable position, displaying he really didn't want to be there but was making the best of it. As he began to tell how this might have happened, he leaned in to Ellen's space. This could mean he was taking an assertive position to tell his side and did not want to be challenged or interrupted. His voice quality did not change in pitch, rate, or tone which would lead one to believe he was not nervous once he began speaking. He did look down quite a bit but that looked like he was collecting his thoughts because he would then make direct eye contact to Ellen which would be considered truthful communication. As to his timing of the communication, he was very hesitant. Again, this could be due to collecting his thoughts or trying to remember what he wanted to say. He did steeple, or grasp his hands, but, again, that shows contemplation. He did stay in a closed position the entire time he explained himself, which would be interpreted as being closed to communication from Ellen as he was speaking. When he was finished with his "testimony", he leaned back, opened his body and relaxed. This could be because he was relieved he was able to tell his side and the nervousness left. His open posture also showed he was not defiant with Ellen nor challenging her after he spoke. He was ready to accept what she had to say. 

So.... lying or not? 

[staphdude]

Framework though... don't rely on that for "reality".  There's a ton of fakery going on there--it's just the more typical reality show fakery we're used to with coached shit-talking and bad behavior, and result manipulation to keep certain characters in who gave "good TV".

 

 

 

I would say they are equivalent on the reality scale. Talking heads are irrelevant to me so if they talk shit or praise to high heaven I really just get a "wah wah wah" from them. And if we are talking result manipulation then the Katie win far outpaces any shenanigans that happen on Framework.

[candall]

I need to chime in here. I am an expert at body language, or as we call it, Nonverbal Communication. You can interpret Nonverbal if you know what you're looking for; however, you must also know the person well to interpret. That's how parents read their children. Remember, there are certain constants in cultures. In one culture it's considered rude NOT to make eye contact, in others it's considered rude TO make eye contact. So it's not an exact Science. Since I hadn't, I watched the clip. I've only "known" Tim for six weeks so my findings are based on that as well as the seven elements of NV. He did start the interview very nervous, as expected. He moved a lot trying to find a comfortable position, displaying he really didn't want to be there but was making the best of it. As he began to tell how this might have happened, he leaned in to Ellen's space. This could mean he was taking an assertive position to tell his side and did not want to be challenged or interrupted. His voice quality did not change in pitch, rate, or tone which would lead one to believe he was not nervous once he began speaking. He did look down quite a bit but that looked like he was collecting his thoughts because he would then make direct eye contact to Ellen which would be considered truthful communication. As to his timing of the communication, he was very hesitant. Again, this could be due to collecting his thoughts or trying to remember what he wanted to say. He did steeple, or grasp his hands, but, again, that shows contemplation. He did stay in a closed position the entire time he explained himself, which would be interpreted as being closed to communication from Ellen as he was speaking. When he was finished with his "testimony", he leaned back, opened his body and relaxed. This could be because he was relieved he was able to tell his side and the nervousness left. His open posture also showed he was not defiant with Ellen nor challenging her after he spoke. He was ready to accept what she had to say. 

So.... lying or not? 

Thank you, that was fascinating.

 

As to "lying or not?"--wouldn't you expect to have observed some small physical gesture or twitch to indicate he was being deceptive?  Isn't deception particularly difficult to conceal?   Frankly, the guy doesn't seem savvy enough to disguise his evil genius with all that discomfort.

 

(I have no pokerface at all.  I somehow broadcast everything I think to the extent that I'm a miserable failure at the literal game of poker.  Is there a book to help me with that, Rhetorica?  It's kind of a drag being so transparent all the time.)

[Rhetorica]

Thank you, that was fascinating.

As to "lying or not?"--wouldn't you expect to have observed some small physical gesture or twitch to indicate he was being deceptive? Isn't deception particularly difficult to conceal? Frankly, the guy doesn't seem savvy enough to disguise his evil genius with all that discomfort.

(I have no pokerface at all. I somehow broadcast everything I think to the extent that I'm a miserable failure at the literal game of poker. Is there a book to help me with that, Rhetorica? It's kind of a drag being so transparent all the time.)

LOL! candall, I am the same way! I cannot tell a lie to save me. So I don't think there's a book to help you. This relates to your first question too. Some people are excellent liars and can actually convince themselves they're telling the truth. So a small physical gesture or twitch to indicate deception isn't universal. That's why I said you had to know the theories and the individual. I will say my ex-husband was an excellent liar (perhaps the only positive I can say ;) After a while, I was able to interpret him.

I, personnally, think Tim was truthful on Ellen but saw that design some where before, as he said.

[candall]

 I, personnally, think Tim was truthful on Ellen but saw that design some where before, as he said.

Thanks, Rhetorica.  Sorry about your lying sack ex. 

 

See you at the Blackjack table?  Memorize the chart, no deception required.  : )

Edited March 9, 2015 by candall

[Lola16]

I interpret Tim looking down and looking away as to recall what he rehearsed saying.  He wasn't surprised by this interview.  He know what questions he would be asked.  And he spoke with Ellen on the phone the day before.  While there might be nerves being in front of a studio audience, he already knew he had a sympathetic ear in Ellen.

 

If he hadn't said in the car with the carpenter, it has to look like it was designed by me, not another designer, not a European designer, I'd have cut him more slack.  The 2 pieces aren't similar, they are near identical in structure, function and construction.  6 thick stack versus 16 thin stack isn't that much of a variation.  The legs bowed out instead of in but both are metal frames.  The center opens like a grill.  The sides slide out exactly the same way.  So 2 variations.  Minor.

[alexa]

I do feel that if he had no idea about the other piece he would sound more convincing when discussing the issue.  He really doesn't do much to stand up for his side of the story.  Most people that did not copy would be more convincing and clearly state.... I have never seen that piece of furniture with some sort of insistence--not just oh, I might have seen it and not realized it.

 

At first I felt bad for him until I saw how close the designs were, and that was not just copying some coffee table or chair...that is a pretty close design copy down to the small details.  

 

This show really did kind of suck.... Ellen added nothing, and they ended it on such a strange note.  I don't think HGTV will bring it back as they only show the same 4 or 5 shows on the network anyway--when they take a chance to add one they only add ones they feel comfortable showing every day of the week.  

[needschocolate]

I really liked this show!  Am I alone?  

 

I also liked this show ans would watch it again.  I enjoy competitions where the contestants get along and there isn't any backstabbing or mean talking heads.  And I like watching people create things.  I found most of the design to be very creative, even though many were not my style, I can see how someone would like them.

 

"furniture experts"? What does that mean? People who have bought furniture on the Wayfair web site?

 

I am not sure what a "furniture expert" is, but, considering that I avoid even dusting my furniture, I am pretty sure I would not be one.  

[carrps]

He may be a nice guy, but that doesn't mean he isn't a liar--someone who thought he could get away with something because who'd even think the connection would be made?  100K is a lot of money.  The designs are too close, and while someone might retain a certain shape, some features, etc. having it be virtually identical other than some minor elements dictated by different materials isn't any kind of accident.  And the show was called "Ellen's Design Challenge" not "Ellen's Carpentry Challenge" (and they were given carpenters to boot).  Him misinterpreting the final brief makes no sense either, if that's what some are thinking, because even if it HAD been worded badly (it wasn't) the name of the damn show and what he'd been doing on the show for weeks was kind of a tipoff too.  I really do think this is the worst case. He cheated.  Got caught.  And now is trying to preserve some rep by lying about it.  Nice guy or not.

 

...

 

I doubt anyone here is an expert at body language, or micro-expressions, or both, but I don't think any special knowledge is necessary to see not only shame, but deception in what he's saying in that segment.

I'm not a Tim fan -- haven't been from the beginning of the show. I wasn't even going to watch the last two episodes because I was spoiled and heard Tim won. But the eps were on the dvr because my sister wanted to watch them.

 

When I heard about Tim's cheating and disqualification? I just laughed and laughed. And watched a bit. That was waaaaay more of a direct copy than "Blurred Lines." Ha ha.

[Wings]

I wish I could 'like' your post 10 times! ^^^^^^^^^