Relationships: Speed Dating

[wayne67]

Are you asking when Barry went from "crush" on Iris to being in love with her?

I think the writers are trying to say that he loved her that way before he even knew what being in love was - so I'm not even sure Barry could pinpoint that.

Max from Roswell loved Liz like that - from the moment he met her when they were like 6 years old or something.

 

Not exactly. I'd like to know more about Barry's love for her, is it all consuming? Is it a continual background thought in his mind? Does he lay awake at night thinking of her? Is he upset that she hasn't said anything about his love confession. He's a main character and Iris is apparently his end game love and I have no idea what he's thinking about her or when they fell in love or how they first met or whether it was first love or whether Barry loves her smile, her humor, her right punch. No idea. It's hard to root for a relationship if I don't even know much about how either character feels about each other or any real details about when it happened or why. Maybe it's just me though.

 

At this moment all I know is that Barry loved her at some point and loves her still without having done anything about it. That makes me roll my eyes in boredom at his ineffectual Nice Guy idiocy. Add that to Barry is keeping only Iris in the dark about being the Flash for some obscure reason and the relationship has no real momentum for me.

Edited February 9, 2015 by wayne67

[Shanna]

As far as I can tell, we have been told he liked her before his dad died and he moved in. So he kept this crush throughout what a decade of living together as pseudo siblings and after he went to college and worked (don't know if they both lived at home in school but at some point he moved out).

At some undetermined point he upgraded this from crush to love. This despite the fact that they never dated and presumably both dated other people at some point in high school, college and after. And iris never noticed and Barry never made a move, but it was obvious enough for joe to catch on.

I have some issues with this but that's how I understand it at present.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'm not going to sit here and say that they shouldn't have expanded on the ramifications of Barry's confession of love to Iris, or the whys of Barry loving Iris and vice versa, more than they have.

 

But I think they've shown us rather than told us how they both feel about each other, and shown a fair amount. 

 

YMMV. 

[CabotCove]

I think this is false, from a comic perspective. If you think back to Smallville, the writers didn't let that happen. Chloe/Clark never became the go to couple, even though that fan base was really, really rabid and extremely loud. They actually stuck with comic canon on that with Lana and Lois. None of that changed. None of it. DC comics likely would have stepped in if they'd tried to make Chloe/Clark the OTP over Clois. There is just no way.

 

Smallville happened before Twitter and Tumbrl were kings of social media and fan participation. Besides the Chloe/Clark faction was certainly loud but not an exceptionally massive fandom to exert change. Also back then it was pre new 52, when 70 years of mythology mattered more.

 

The other examples you've shown? Of other comic couples? None of them are comic royalty like Lois/Clark or Iris/Barry, as has already been said.

 

 

There is no such thing as comic royalty these days, but I guess Lois/Clark come close. As for Barry/Iris, they certainly are The Flash/Barry's most iconic couple but they are not as universally well known and as developed as Clark/Lois. Clark and Lois have had their own show, been in dozens of Superman movies and cartoons, they are in a league of their own. More than a comic book supercouple, they are pop culture. Lois had her own comic books, Iris has never had. I would even argue Green Arrow & Black Canary have been far more in the spotlight in recent years than Barry/Iris. They are way too many flashes and they broke Flash comic canon

when they paired Wally West with Artemis Crock in Young Justice instead of Linda Park, which became a really popular pairing

. Apart from Lois most female non superhero love interests are severly under-developed. That being said I love what they have been doing with Barry/Iris (aka WestAllen) in this show, this is possibly the biggest platform they have ever been in so far. Their chances are really good thus far. They will possibly get boosted by the upcoming Flash movie.

 

As phoenics mentioned neither Sara or Abby are anywhere near as groundbreaking as Candice's Iris, for the same reason that most would find it wild if anyone other than a white actress played the parts of Mary Jane or Lois Lane.

 

I disagree, Nicole as Abbie Mills role is far more groundbreaking than Candice/Iris. Its  a black woman as  hero and co- lead of a show instead of a love interest  on some guy's show.  And her show is on Fox not on the CW, and in a role thats originally and specifically written for a black woman. Of course the casting of Candice as Iris West is special too in its own way.

 

 

Those are exactly the reasons why Iris and Barry were expected to be the underdog couple in the fandom, despite their canon status, because their set up was obviously not going to be to a lot of people's taste. Nor was it very sexy, as CW couples go. And yet, WestAllen are a hit.

I tend to think their popularity is due to solid execution. While far from unique, their story has been well constructed thus far by setting up Barry's (as of now) unrequited love for Iris as sincere and plausible, as opposed to the more common distant crush.

I dont agree they were set up as the underdog, but I agree the execution has been good and the chemistry is certainly there.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Conell

[wayne67]

As far as I can tell, we have been told he liked her before his dad died and he moved in. So he kept this crush throughout what a decade of living together as pseudo siblings and after he went to college and worked (don't know if they both lived at home in school but at some point he moved out).

At some undetermined point he upgraded this from crush to love. This despite the fact that they never dated and presumably both dated other people at some point in high school, college and after. And iris never noticed and Barry never made a move, but it was obvious enough for joe to catch on.

I have some issues with this but that's how I understand it at present.

 

Yeah that's kind of what I got from the show... which means Barry's love has been stuck on neutral for a decade and Iris has thought of him as a friend while he's been lying to her for ages about it.

 

My problem is that they still seem to be stuck in neutral after the confession. Nothing has progressed. Iris is pretending it didn't happen or is in denial and Barry doesn't seem heartbroken by the silence of her rejection just kind of drifting along with his life still bored and still single.

 

I don't know, it just doesn't feel very epic. It feels very highschool. He's in love with her because he's been in love with her for ages and she's oblivious. There isn't any major stakes or roadblocks other than Iris apparently being indifferent to Barry's love. Maybe it's just me though.

[peachmangosteen]

Not just you. I feel the same way. The writing for them just doesn't work for me at all right now. I'm disappointed about that because I really wanted to love them.

[phoenics]

I think the main issue I have right now is that the writers just refuse to give Iris a pov as a character. She just gets to react to everyone instead of be her own person. As an Iris/Candice fan, I'm really disappointed. The writers should be ashamed.

[Carrie Ann]

I hated everything about the Linda/Barry/Iris stuff tonight. On all fronts. I was not a fan of Malese Jow when I saw her on TVD, but was hoping I'd like her more here. I don't. I don't feel any chemistry between Linda and Barry, which is fine because I know she's not a long-term love interest, so I don't particularly care about being convinced by their relationship. But I find Linda off-putting--which I know she's supposed to be, it's just kind of my least favorite character type. So there's that.

 

And then Barry with that pepper. Ugh. Manipulating a girl into going out with you again is not a good look.

 

And Iris. The telling Linda about Barry's feelings for another girl part was just kind of painful to watch, but I really really hated the first scene, where she was so shocked about Barry going out with Linda. "Oh, no, I think it's great!" It's textbook, exactly what you expect, and disappointing that the writers are taking the most cliched route, when they are so good at surprising in other areas. I really hope they tone this down, but in truth, I expect more of the same.

[Trini]

Not new information, but Iris actually said she doesn't reciprocate. So... progress?

 

So this Barry/Linda plot is exactly the Chuck/Lou plot that was on Chuck. I like her though.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Trini

[benteen]

The female characters are all being defined by their relationships with the male characters, particularly Iris.  It's a glaring weakness of the show.

[Shanna]

So this Barry/Linda plot is exactly the Chuck/Lou plot that was on Chuck. I like her though.

Ha! She Malese even has a little of that same quality as Lou. So we've got that over here, and the Brandon routh story going on arrow. Confirmation the writers are hacks? But I still am enjoying Linda and Barry needs some light dating fun. I think my least favorite thing from this episode was Iris's run on about Barry never really having a girlfriend. I'm going to head canon that into he's been keeping them all on the qt with iris because I don't buy that for a second.

Can I just say, I hate every shipper name I've seen for this show so far?

Edited February 11, 2015 by Shanna

[FurryFury]

Can I just say, I hate every shipper name I've seen for this show so far?

 

Yeah, Once Upon A Time, this is not.

[Sakura12]

I'm still rooting for WestPark!

 

I like Linda because she's fun and light and not meant to be long term. Barry needs to have fun and a woman that's not afraid to tell it like it is. I didn't find the pepper thing manipulative. Their first date was Linda taking him to a restaurant with the spiciest tacos with peppers. He couldn't take the heat. So him eating an even hotter pepper to show that he does want to continue dating her was just a fun thing. It was about him proving that he was into their relationship. I do think he does like Linda and enjoys her company. No one is saying they are in love with each other. He shouldn't wait around for Iris to figure out she has feelings for him while she gets to be in a serious relationship. I'm all for Barry having some fun with someone else. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

Shipping is, for me at least, almost always the least interesting and relevant part of whatever show I'm watching, even if it's a favorite. I'm not opposed to two characters getting together nor am I usually bothered if they never do. The only time it is usually a point of consideration for me is if that relationship is actually the main reason behind the show itself. Castle is a perfect example. There have also been cases where I wasn't looking for it but it snuck and took me by surprise and actually became a driving factor, even if it wasn't necessarily the focus of the show. Like Xena. But unlike Arrow, where I think Oliver/Laurel was intended as epic end game love but got waylaid first the complete and utter lack of chemistry between Amell and Cassidy and then by Felicity, Flash is set up to have Barry/Iris be a slow burn leading up to comic destiny eventuality. I think Gustin and Patton actually work well together. On the other hand, they are giving into some of the more hackneyed tropes by having Barry admit his feelings to Iris and Iris not reciprocate them until she sees Barry with another woman and starts to figure out what she's been missing. The season will probably end with Barry more or less happily with Linda while Iris has broken up with Eddie and watches the two of them with longing and sadness.

[Xander]

Unlike many others, I really liked the Barry/Iris scene in this episode. I think we're seeing their chemistry improving and I much prefer it to scenes where Barry is a love sick puppy. I don't think the writers are throwing Iris under the bus at all and I think these two are quite messy with each other which I personally find fun. Prior to this episode, there's nothing that Barry would have loved more than to break up Eddie and Iris. He flirted with her as the Flash, confessed his feelings just as she was about to move in with Eddie and even beat the poor guy up when he was under the influence. Iris has little screen time so her stuff seemed a little more potent but I didn't think it was bad especially as it backfired and not only did Barry go "all in" with Linda, he told her he no longer loved her. So good for him. 

 

If they really wanted to make her look terrible, Linda would have ended things with Barry without an explanation and Iris would have played the best friend who comforts him while staying happily with Eddie. That would have been a lot worse. While the writing is weak and the storyline need not be so cliche, we can at least commend the writers for not dragging things out. 

 

I enjoyed Barry with Linda but I just don't like how Barry is lying. Like, I understand why he tried to prove to her that he's really over Iris but he isn't so it's still going to be a problem in the future, isn't it? So I feel bad for her. Maybe she will only date him casually so it won't be a big deal when that happens. 

[peachmangosteen]

While the writing is weak and the storyline need not be so cliche, we can at least commend the writers for not dragging things out. 

 

I don't know, I feel like all their doing is dragging things out by filling their whole story with tired, annoying cliches.

 

But your post did make me look at the scenes a little differently and I do see what you're saying.

 

I think ultimately they shouldn't have had Barry confess as early as they did if they weren't prepared to show Iris' POV about it early, too.

[Xander]

 

I think ultimately they shouldn't have had Barry confess as early as they did if they weren't prepared to show Iris' POV about it early, too.

I agree, It makes no sense to save it for a big reveal and I think her jealousy would have been better received if it had been built up. Plus we don't even know what the state of her relationship with Eddie is these days. Which further proves that Iris/Eddie only exists to serve Barry's character development. 

[Tangerine]

I think a common mistake made in the writing for these 'destined' couples asides from the pressure of canon is that it seems that the writers are in such a big darn rush to get them together. If they're destined to end up together, why not take it slowly, give them room to breath and develop as characters we want to be invested in before putting them together? We're meeting these characters for the first time on these shows. Some of them have new back stories we're not familiar with so let's get to know them first before rushing to couple them together. 

 

I'm glad that they didn't make Barry sit around and pine for Iris for 4+ seasons while she remained clueless. I thought it was refreshing that he told her how he felt rather early on. But the complete about-face that Iris is suddenly doing on her feelings is doing a disservice to her character. Once again, it's because the writers don't seem invested in developing a POV for Iris at all.

[Shanna]

I think a common mistake made in the writing for these 'destined' couples asides from the pressure of canon is that it seems that the writers are in such a big darn rush to get them together. If they're destined to end up together, why not take it slowly, give them room to breath and develop as characters we want to be invested in before putting them together? We're meeting these characters for the first time on these shows. Some of them have new back stories we're not familiar with so let's get to know them first before rushing to couple them together.

This is how cop shows like castle and bones types go usually and I think Lois and Clark followed a similar formula. It works if the two pair well usually. Maybe this is why people like to ship your Felicitys and maybe Caitlin - they get to see people play off each other when the focus isn't on them.

Those shows and plots are focused on stuff other than romance when the couples interact. That formula works well and they could easily set it up for iris Barry.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Shanna

[CabotCove]

And then Barry with that pepper. Ugh. Manipulating a girl into going out with you again is not a good look.

 

 

I dont see it as manipulating, to me he was just trying to prove he likes her. I see it as a running joke between them considering what happened on  their first date. Its not like the pepper was going to kill him, thats different from say if he was holding a gun to his head or trying to jump off a bridge.

[phoenics]

I disagree, Nicole as Abbie Mills role is far more groundbreaking than Candice/Iris. Its  a black woman as  hero and co- lead of a show instead of a love interest  on some guy's show.  And her show is on Fox not on the CW, and in a role thats originally and specifically written for a black woman. Of course the casting of Candice as Iris West is special too in its own way.

Given that we've seen the "strong black woman" trope again and again (and the writers seem hellbent on SH to pin NB's Abbie into that corner, I'd say casting a black woman as the lead love interest in a comic show is far more historic - even when you consider the comic royalty piece of the equation, as Barry/Iris are a lot like Lois/Clark.

NB being cast was definitely awesome - but she's not the first kick@ss black female we've seen on a show... lead or not.

Black women tend to be shoved into the "not beautiful, not leading romantic lady" trope constantly - our feminism doesn't look like mainstream (white) feminism - we are fighting different tropes. That's why CP's casting was so groundbreaking.

Intersectionality matters.

Those shows and plots are focused on stuff other than romance when the couples interact. That formula works well and they could easily set it up for iris Barry.

They totally could - in the comics Iris and Barry work together solving cases - I don't know why they aren't doing that here.

[peachmangosteen]

They totally could - in the comics Iris and Barry work together solving cases - I don't know why they aren't doing that here.

That sounds so great. I would probably like them if the show had gone that route.

I don't know anything about The Flash comics. I didn't realize Iris was white in them. That makes them casting a black actress in the role and then completely sidelining her even more frustrating really. 

 

Were Barry and Iris bffs from childhood in the comics?

Edited February 11, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[phoenics]

Continued over from the Caitlin thread...

 

I'm all for relationships between genders, but yeah, it does get tiresome that almost every female friendship gets turned into femslash. I've only really done that with Myka/HG from Warehouse 13, however the actresses admitted they were playing their characters a little in love with each other. 

 

I'd rather have the women be friends over them being in a relationship. Mostly I'm just not a big fan of shipping, it kind of ruins the show and makes the Ship the most important part. I used to be a bigger shipper so I know the kind of obsession that comes along with it. That's why I stopped. I want to enjoy the show and all it's characters as individuals.

About the shipping... I agree...

In later years I have turned my shipping down pretty much - except when I believe that a show has an established canon couple I'm cool with before the show starts. Then I don't have to get caught up in the ship wars - but since I'm not a regular CW viewer, I didn't realize shipping was such a big thing. I'm used to watching shows that establish a couple as "it" pretty much and I can comfortably just enjoy the ride - along with everything else the show has to offer.

I used to be a hardcore shipper back in the day on B&B - hardcore Bridgie (Brooke & Ridge) fan. I actually helped run a message board for Brooke/Bridge. That got nuts actually... hater fans (from other character/ship fan bases) calling the jobs of folks they didn't like online and trying to get them fired (the stalking was real back then) and so since then I kinda dropped off except for a very few select shows, Roswell and I guess that's it.

I caught Merlin AFTER it was mostly done so stayed out of fandom (but saw some ugly on online articles)... On Sleepy Hollow I note the chemistry with Ichabbie, but am prob more of an Abbie/NB fan... but I won't die if they do Ichabbie. I think the Flash is the first show I've actively shipped on and again, that's because I literally saw some promo scenes with CP/GG and thought since Iris/Barry was royalty, that's where they were going so I could safely watch.

Boy was I wrong, lol.

I think I just realized something.

Maybe shippers fall into 1 or 2 categories. I think like me, there may be some fans who come to a show, read the press early on and the show synopsis and watch or don't watch based on whether they like the main couple and feel like it would be safe to watch the show and like the couple. For me - I don't like watching shows where a character I like has to scrap for screen time or gets bashed a lot. So, when CP was cast in such a pivotal role as Iris, the love interest of Barry, I thought - okay, they are serious about this... I can watch. I have "scars" so to speak from experiences with shows where characters I like (regardless of race, but I'd be lying if I didn't say the characters who got it worse were the black women) - so I choose my shows carefully before watching because I don't want to deal with craziness. I consider the pilot to be the contract and I get really upset when the contract is voided. It's also why I'm probably such a stickler with comic canon.

Perhaps the other side of shipping might be those who simply watch a show and then decide from watching who they like and don't like and ship on that, regardless. I guess these might be fans who see the "contract" presented in the pilot episode of a show, but disregard it in favor of what they've decided they want. Or perhaps they don't see it as a contract in the first place, but something that will evolve as more episodes air. There is some freedom in that - it's just (for me) a frustrating way to watch a show. That's why I tend to "vert" a show first before watching.

Of course, I didn't realize that for CW shows, that's just not how it works, lol. I'm pretty sure The Flash will be the last show I really get into. I do watch Arrow - but I didn't really ship anything on it.

Edited February 14, 2015 by phoenics

[Shanna]

What an interesting perspective Phoenics. I cannot imagine reading press for a show and trying to decide who to ship before it even gets shown on screen.

The only shows where I consider the ship obvious are the ones that re obviously set up with no other possibilities from day one ( your Lois and Clark/castle/bones kinds of shows that revolve around two people). I never feel that way about ensemble shows and that's how I see this one.

As for shipping for this show, I honestly am not taking it terribly seriously. I feel like this is a fluffy show, and I don't see a lot of depth yet. There is no felicity who I adore so I'm pretty much ok with however it goes so long as the chemistry and writing are there.

[Sakura12]

Having been involved in some terrible Shipper Wars during Lost. I realized that I had to take a step back and think if that was really worth it? Did I really watch the show as a whole or I was more wrapped up in whether my ship will be endgame. (My ship kind of was, I guess since Lost's ending was stupid.) However from that experience I swore off shipping. I started watching the shows for the individual characters. 

 

Now it takes a something special for me to ship. First I have to see the characters and actors interact on screen, second, I have to see if I like both characters separately, third, they have to have chemistry or the actors make me believe they love each other or can love each other, only then will I ship them. I'm not against the obvious pair, Castle/Beckett, Chuck/Sarah, etc...

 

I like what Gail Simone said (a female DC comic writer), you can't just give me characters to look at, you have to give me characters to believe in. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by Sakura12

[phoenics]

What an interesting perspective Phoenics. I cannot imagine reading press for a show and trying to decide who to ship before it even gets shown on screen.

Well, I also wait for promo clips first too - it's not just press...

I do it to "protect" myself, lol. I also screen the producers, writers, etc.. For example - since the fustercluck that happened on Roswell, I don't watch stuff from Jason Katims. He's got issues. I do love David Nutter and he's heavily involved in The Flash (and writes a lot of WestAllen scenes), so I trusted that...

But yes - I do this to limit frustration.

For example, if I'd known that Mark Goffman from Sleepy Hollow pulled similar hijinks on White Collar and all of that history, I would have probably been a lot more careful with SH in Season 2.

I prefer not to get all that deep with shows these days. The Flash happened more or less accidentally once I realized there were dynamics at play (from Arrow) that I didn't know about pre-show. I literally started exploring Arrow fandom after The Flash started, so wasn't as aware of the whole ship stuff. I knew some ship stuff happened on Smallville, but I stayed out of fandom and didn't really ship anything - once Lois came onboard I just smiled to myself and watched occasionally in fits and stops.

The only shows where I consider the ship obvious are the ones that re obviously set up with no other possibilities from day one ( your Lois and Clark/castle/bones kinds of shows that revolve around two people). I never feel that way about ensemble shows and that's how I see this one.

I think that's where we differ - I didn't consider The Flash to be the way you do - as I'm in group #1, and I think based on what I've read from you, you're in #2.

I like what Gail Simone said (a female DC comic writer), you can't just give me characters to look at, you have to give me characters to believe in.

I think this also adds to my comment about comic canon being important to many folks in ship group #1 - canon brings a LOT of backstory and interest for a character - areas to explore and angles to exploit... so for me a lot of the "characters to believe in" for me comes from the background of a character. When a comic is brought to the small screen for adaptation, for me, it's important to heavily mine comic canon - because without those graphic novels to begin with there would be no show.

I consider comic canon part of the contract... another difference with us I guess.

I'm fairly analytical and I always like to understand context when thinking about various opinions... Sakura's comment from the other thread really helped me understand somethings I didn't before - both about myself and other shippers.

I also want to add that I do not think shipping overall is bad - just when it leads a fandom to try to "control" a show - which apparently happens on The CW shows (and B&B, lol). I think that comics realized romance was important to the characters and heroes and gave them more depth, which is why focus on the love interest side increased AND increased the female viewership. For me, Superman isn't half as interesting without Lois Lane - it's the contrast that works (kinda like Abbie and Ichabod on Sleepy Hollow)... which is why he's boring to me with Wonder Woman - too much sameness. Heh - that's another reason I'm not a Snowbarry shipper (besides the contract thing and the fact that I don't see any chemistry).

Edited February 14, 2015 by phoenics

[Sakura12]

I don't go by comic canon. Barry and Iris are together in the comics. Good for them. I'm not reading the comics, I go by what is presented to me onscreen on the show. The comics are a different medium with a different story. I think of the tv shows as a kind of alternate universe where they are telling us their own story. Some things may be the same, but some things might be changed to produce different outcomes. 

 

For me Gail's comment means, you can't just put two people in a place give them established names and expect me to just go along with it. You have to make me believe in the characters and make me believe they are meant to be together. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by Sakura12

[phoenics]

I don't go by comic canon. Barry and Iris are together in the comics. Good for them. I'm not reading the comics, I go by what is presented to me onscreen on the show. The comics are a different medium with a different story. I think of the tv shows as a kind of alternate universe where they are telling us their own story. Some things may be the same, but some things might be changed to produce different outcomes.

Yes - I think that puts you in ship camp or camp #2 (ignoring the shipping) ... that's not the camp I'm coming from. For me, comic canon is critical because my interest in the show stems from the graphic novels (I'm a purist) that the characters came from. I wouldn't watch a show called The Flash just randomly - the graphic novel source material is what drew me to the show. So for me, it's sola scriptura and very important.

I understand where you're coming from - but that's not where I am coming from. That means we'll always see things differently.

As I stated above - for me the comic canon is part of the contract presented in the pilot (for me).

 

For me Gail's comment means, you can't just put two people in a place give them established names and expect me to just go along with it. You have to make me believe in the characters and make me believe they are meant to be together.

Okay - but that's not what I meant with my comments. Here's the thing - unless Gail is talking about writing comics for TV, her comments are with respect to the graphic novels she writes on. Not TV. The spirit of her comment is that we have to make us care about the characters - make them characters we can believe in - but for me, they do that in the graphic novels - which are the source material for the tv show. My hope would be that they would heavily use the source material (comic canon) to make the characters those we can believe in. They already did that in the graphic novel source material (or else there would be no show), which means they can easily mine that for the tv show. And they should.

A show based on a comic can NEVER just ignore comic canon - that's the ultimate bait and switch. I expect some changes - but not wholesale changes. And I'm not even talking about relationships right now - just how important comic canon is to me - like I said, I consider it part of the contract.

Of course they should create characters we can believe in - but since they've already managed to do that with strong characterizations in comic canon, why not borrow heavily from that to do that in TV. That doesn't mean it has to be exactly the same - but for the love of all, please writers, don't mess up what was already good in the source material to begin with for something less good.

Case in point would be how they've handled Iris' career - I don't get why all of that rigamarole was necessary when they could have just had her focused on being a reporter. It's not horribly vexing to me - but I tend to try to give Iris the benefit of the doubt since she rarely gets it from others.

Edited February 14, 2015 by phoenics

[Enero]

Not new information, but Iris actually said she doesn't reciprocate. So... progress?

.

Possibly. However, I find it most telling that she's again started to wear the ring he gave her. The last time she wore it was when he gave it to her which was before he confessed his feelings. I'd think it would be weird for her to wear the ring now knowing that what he feels for her goes deeper than friendship. This change could be an indication that she's starting to realize that her feelings go deeper than friendship as well.

As far as Barry goes, I liked his interactions with Linda and don't blame him one bit for trying to move on. However, his attempt came off a little desperate there at the end with the pepper scene. We all know that he's lying about not having "those feelings" for Iris anymore. Very interesting choice of words he used. Seems telling that if true he couldn't just come out and say 'I'm not in love with you anymore.' I think he put such a generic label on his feelings because that was the only way he could look Iris in the eyes and say he was over her.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Enero

[phoenics]

Iris looked stricken too when he said that to her... 

[Trini]

From the Iris thread:

 

I know I'm going to get a lot of detractors when I type this, but, they really screwed up when they had Barry confess his feelings to Iris so early. Now every reaction/ non reaction that Iris has is automatically a cause of her attraction/non attraction to Barry. The writers could've pretty much just let Iris gradually develop feelings for Barry as his relationship with Linda or whoever they chose to be his mate developed. Instead, these lay writers chose to use the sledgehammer technique and force a triangle on the viewers that nobody wanted.

 

I was surprised that they had Barry confess so 'early', but hey, it was one of the things that I wanted Iris to find out by the end of the season.* However, what was the point of that if they were going to wait 4 episodes to show any real repercussions? (And between those moments, any talk about it was only from Barry's perspective.) Their relationship is about the same. They could have found time for a Barry/Iris conversation where she lets him know she doesn't feel that way, she's in love with Eddie, etc. Are they not BFFs like they keep telling us?

 

In summary: the real mistake was the follow-up -- or lack thereof. It probably wouldn't have mattered much when Barry confessed.

 

 

*Well, if they're going this fast maybe Iris will figure out Barry's other secret soon!

Edited February 15, 2015 by Trini

[Trini]

http://instagram.com/p/zFyRz3gVG0/

 

Ha! As if.

[wayne67]

http://instagram.com/p/zFyRz3gVG0/

 

Ha! As if.

 

Looking at his suit, it does very little to cover his face. Thankfully the police have no facial recognition software to find out who The Flash is and the media apparently isn't more interested in discovering his identity either.

Edited February 15, 2015 by wayne67

[Xander]

 

Their relationship is about the same.

Haha. Actually, I think their relationship has changed week-to-week since the confession.

 

First was awkwardness.

Next was back to being best friends.

Then Barry decides to move on.

Then iris is jealous. 

 

lol. And all the while, no one knows what Iris is thinking. 

 

Since the next episode is called "The Fallout" I wonder if the next phase is mud slinging. 

Edited February 15, 2015 by Xander

[phoenics]

Fallout probably refers to the nuclear fallout - though it could be about some romantic fallout too - but there doesn't seem to be anything to "fall out" to.

And - who would be mudslinging?

[Oscirus]

Looking at his suit, it does very little to cover his face. Thankfully the police have no facial recognition software to find out who The Flash is and the media apparently isn't more interested in discovering his identity either.

 

And thank god that only Eddie and Iris recognize his voice since those are the only time that Barry scrambles his voice is when he's talking to those two..

 

 

So if my theory is correct and Caitlin and Barry start dating at the end of this season then that would mean that they're both dating each other's second choices. Awk..... waard.

 

Also why do they use Linda Park as a romantic interest when they have other comic book interests? (Patty Spivot, I'm looking  at you.)

[cynic]

...

So if my theory is correct and Caitlin and Barry start dating at the end of this season then that would mean that they're both dating each other's second choices. Awk..... waard.

...

Oh man, please don't let this come true. I just can't tolerate Danielle Panabaker's cutesy "acting". Plus, I just don't see any chemistry between them. I'd rather he stayed with Linda Park. Malese Jow is way better.

[phoenics]

Oh man, please don't let this come true. I just can't tolerate Danielle Panabaker's cutesy "acting". Plus, I just don't see any chemistry between them. I'd rather he stayed with Linda Park. Malese Jow is way better.

"cutesy"! THAT's what's been bothering me all this time about her portrayal of Caitlin. And it appears to be somewhat on purpose - I looked up some of her other clips and she was much better in them... in one she was kind of a baddie - she was decent there. She might make a good Killer Frost - although I still don't think she'll be an "evil" Killer Frost.

[FurryFury]

They are desperately trying to replicate Felicity, which is just wrong. I was interested in Caitlyn before the show started because I hoped she would be an "ice queen", which would contrast Barry's adorkable nature in a nice way, but she's just a disappointment to me so far. I don't hate her or anything, I just wish she were written better (but then, I wish that for all characters on the show except Wells and maybe Cisco).

 

Oh, and I'm sure she won't hook up with Barry this season, or even the next. I suppose Iris and Barry will come close to hooking up, maybe she realizes her feelings for him (which were never really hinted at or shown, but whatever) but then something will happen to stop it.

Edited February 16, 2015 by FurryFury

[phoenics]

They are desperately trying to replicate Felicity, which is just wrong. I was interested in Caitlyn before the show started because I hoped she would be an "ice queen", which would contrast Barry's adorkable nature in a nice way, but she's just a disappointment to be so far. I don't hate her or anything, I just wish she were written better (but then, I wish that for all characters on the show except Wells and maybe Cisco).

I think the Flash writers are trying to borrow too much of the Arrow formula, not recognizing that it's unnecessary. First of all - the relationship between Barry Allen and Team Flash undercuts Barry Allen. Barry Allen is supposed to be a brilliant CSI - and now we get a lot of Barry asking questions of Team Flash that he honestly would be able to answer himself. And we're not getting the little CGI effects over the crime scene while Barry does his analysis - that really showed how smart Barry was. Instead, the show is falling back on Barry using his powers or relying on Star Labs for his "smarts"...

I think it's kinda lazy of the show to make Barry Allen seem more like Wally West (who wasn't the brightest bulb in the box) just to give Team Flash something to do. I think Team Flash is definitely necessary and I like them most of the time (well, Caitlin grates on me with the cutesy stuff - they should have played her as sarcastic), but I think that their presence actually hampers Barry Allen's growth and display of intelligence.

I also think that part of the reason why the show is struggling with Iris a bit is because in the comics, there is no Team Flash. There is Iris and Barry working together on cases - her as a reporter and him as a brilliant CSI. By adding Team Flash into the mix, it livens things up a bit - but it also takes away some of Iris' story - because Iris and Barry working together on cases is at the core of the Flash mythology. I don't doubt that they could still do that, but ... Team Flash would always suck up some of that element.

But I do wonder how long they will keep Team Flash intact - once they find out Wells is RF, how will that go? Will there even be a Team Flash in S2?

[Sakura12]

Maybe Team Flash won't stay intact if Wells is Reverse Flash and Caitlin is Killer Frost. That takes two away as villains. Cisco is supposed to be Vibe so he may stay on as a helper to Barry. Season 2's Team Flash could be Barry, Cisco and Iris,

 

And if they introduce Wally West which I think is entirely possible with these writers wanting as many masked people as possible. Linda could be sticking around as well. 

Edited February 16, 2015 by Sakura12

[phoenics]

I guess the question is.... does Barry need a Team Flash?

[Sakura12]

In the comics it works with him being solo, because you read those in about 2 minutes.

 

A TV show is a about 40 minutes. He needs people to play off of. So yes, I think he needs a team. Plus this version of Barry is kind of stupid without them, he needs people to tell him to slow down and think of a plan first. Not to just run in at full speed and hope for the best. 

Edited February 16, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

Barry Allen is supposed to be a brilliant CSI - and now we get a lot of Barry asking questions of Team Flash that he honestly would be able to answer himself.

 

This is very true. I also find it very annoying. Barry has been, well, "neutralized" in a way compared to his first appearance to better fit the "default hero" mold. I really don't like it. 

 

I also think that part of the reason why the show is struggling with Iris a bit is because in the comics, there is no Team Flash.

 

There is no Team Arrow, but they worked out very well. I think it's just lazy writing, which may become a problem when the novelty of the show wears off. I can forgive a first-year show a lot of stuff, but if it continues... 

 

A TV show is a about 40 minutes. He needs people to play off of. So yes, I think he needs a team.

 

Yeah, ensembles is the best thing about TV shows, imo. People don't just get invested in the main character, they invest into relationships, and the more of them, the better.

 

I'd love it if Iris were integrated into Team Flash, however - it would give her much more stuff to do. Barry not telling her from the get-go was a mistake. They shouldn't have tried to replicate Arrow in this department.

[KirkB]

I wonder if some of the issues people are having with Barry as a character would have been negated if they just used Wally West instead. Because their Barry here is acting an awful lot like what I remember of Wally.

[cynic]

They are desperately trying to replicate Felicity, which is just wrong. I was interested in Caitlyn before the show started because I hoped she would be an "ice queen", which would contrast Barry's adorkable nature in a nice way, but she's just a disappointment to me so far. I don't hate her or anything, I just wish she were written better (but then, I wish that for all characters on the show except Wells and maybe Cisco).

Oh, and I'm sure she won't hook up with Barry this season, or even the next. I suppose Iris and Barry will come close to hooking up, maybe she realizes her feelings for him (which were never really hinted at or shown, but whatever) but then something will happen to stop it.

I gave up on Arrow long ago and was never a Felicity fan, so I hate the shades of Felicity they've given Caitlin. I wish she was colder and more serious too. The thing is, she kinda was in the pilot. It didn't really seem to fit comfortably on Danielle Panabaker though, so maybe they're constrained by the actress' ability too. I actually feel like Caitlin should be older, but they made her young to appeal to the CW crowd, make her a possible love interest for Barry, and yeah, try to replicate Felicity.

[phoenics]

I gave up on Arrow long ago and was never a Felicity fan, so I hate the shades of Felicity they've given Caitlin. I wish she was colder and more serious too. The thing is, she kinda was in the pilot. It didn't really seem to fit comfortably on Danielle Panabaker though, so maybe they're constrained by the actress' ability too. I actually feel like Caitlin should be older, but they made her young to appeal to the CW crowd, make her a possible love interest for Barry, and yeah, try to replicate Felicity.

It's hard to recapture lightning in a bottle - Felicity on Arrow was a convenient fluke of casting EBR for a one-time guest role... trying to force it is just making Caitlin rather annoying and kinda OOC. They should have made her caustic and sarcastic... and then we'd see why... but perhaps it is a failing of DP that that has fallen by the wayside.

[SevenStars]

Iris looked stricken too when he said that to her... 

 

I would like to know WHY ? Is because it makes her realize that Barry's feeling might not be as deep as Barry led her to believe? It is because she is starting to return his feelings? Is because she is just a selfish bitch who enjoy the idea of Barry being in love with her even thought she is not with him?  WHY?WHY?WHY?

 

This is why this story-line desperately need Iris pov because without it, I don't really know whether the story is moving along or standing still. 

Edited February 16, 2015 by SevenStars

[Sakura12]

I think not having Iris's POV is what is hurting her character. Without it, it leaves the fans to interpret what she's thinking. Going with Iris being suddenly jealous that Barry is dating is the first place most of will go too, because this is the CW and that is the kind of triangle shipper bait they always throw in the water.

 

I don't think Iris is at the Lana Lang and Laurel Lance levels yet, but she is in danger of going there with the tell and not show part that ruined those two characters. I'm hoping we see Iris being more of a reporter or learning to be a reporter. I would also like for Linda to be a friend for Iris after her and Barry realize that their relationship will never go anywhere. (I would say Caitlin too but DP is not that great of an actress so I don't really want to see more of her) But having a female friendship on this show with these writers is slim to none, besides them maybe saying something nice to each other once in awhile. 

[phoenics]

I wonder if some of the issues people are having with Barry as a character would have been negated if they just used Wally West instead. Because their Barry here is acting an awful lot like what I remember of Wally.

I'd actually prefer having Barry Allen - largely because I've seen Wally's version and though I like him, I was interested in seeing Barry's version of The Flash... especially given that he basically starts the whole thing up...

I don't think Iris is at the Lana Lang and Laurel Lance levels yet, but she is in danger of going there with the tell and not show part that ruined those two characters. I'm hoping we see Iris being more of a reporter or learning to be a reporter. I would also like for Linda to be a friend for Iris after her and Barry realize that their relationship will never go anywhere. (I would say Caitlin too but DP is not that great of an actress so I don't really want to see more of her) But having a female friendship on this show with these writers is slim to none, besides them maybe saying something nice to each other once in awhile.

I would love to see a Linda Park/Iris West friendship... especially given canon. Who knows if they will go there with Wally West, but I'd still like to see Linda and Iris be friends... I don't hold much hope for that happening though. I'm learning from all of you that the CW isn't really about that... sighs.