Relationships: Speed Dating

[phoenics]

I don't know how to take a ten year old's romantic attachment for life seriously.

Barry was 11. For some boys, that's puberty.

Max was like 5 when he first saw Liz Parker for the first time and fell completely in love with her. This stuff happens all the time. And who knows when Barry and Iris actually met - it could have been when they were much younger, giving little Barry time for those feelings to grow and grow.... Plus, Iris was shown as consistently being the one who believed him and IN him.

When I was 11, I had major crushes and bf/gf stuff wasn't out of the question, it just wasn't all kiss-kiss. You just had play-dates where you'd declare yourselves together with your parent's okay. And you were usually never unsupervised.

The point is, the show has been very careful to bring up these "objections" to Barry/Iris on the "incest" front and bat them down. They've literally brought them up because they are trying to say, "No, they aren't brother and sister, adopted brother and sister or foster brother and sister and neither of them see each other that way and WE ARE TELLING you that they aren't that way."

I think the writers could have made this better by making Barry 13 or 14 when all of this happened, but honestly it's fine the way it is. There is no incest and I never got a squishy vibe from this at all. Ever.

And I'm adopted.

[zannej]

It is possible to have a sibling vibe with people you are close with that were not even raised with you. I have a friend that I think of as a little brother and I only met him a few years ago. Thinking about him in any sexual way would feel like incest to me-- even though biologically it wouldn't be.

 

Now, that doesn't mean that Iris or Barry ever felt that way about each other. Although, I suspect that Iris did view Barry as a brother for a long time and it wasn't until he told her how he felt about her that she started to think of him differently. And she didn't have the "eww, incest" reaction.

[Actionmage]

Being raised in the same house makes them foster-brother and foster-sister. The notion that they are not really related in any way means an adopted child isn't really related either.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"Foster care is a system in which a minor has been placed into a ward, group home, or private home of a state-certified caregiver referred to as a "foster parent". The placement of the child is usually arranged through the government or a social-service agency. The institution, group home or foster parent is compensated for expenses.[1]

 

The state via the family court and child protection agency stand in loco parentis to the minor, making all legal decisions while the foster parent is responsible for the day-to-day care of the minor.

 

The vast majority of children who would otherwise need foster care are in kinship care, that is, in the care of grandparents or other relatives.[2] Most kinship care is done informally, without the involvement of a court or public organization. However, in the U.S., formal kinship care is increasingly common. In 2012, a quarter of all children in formal foster care were placed with relatives.[3]"

 

That bolded and italicized portion is what I think we are to believe happened with Barry and The Wests. There were no other relatives that could be found, so Joe was there, had a history with Barry already, so the Wests took him in.  Henry was still alive, so there may have been some power of attorney business with Barry's medical and day-to-day legal stuff, but Barry had a living father and knew where Henry was.

 

The nature of Joe to Barry from that point on was mentor/father because Henry was kept from being Barry's father directly. I remember the awful scene of Barry finding Nora and Joe saying something like "He's friends with my daughter" when the cops on scene finally realize a sobbing pre-teen is there. That implies that Joe had minimal interaction with Barry to that point. Iris and Barry, already friends before Nora's death, kept their friendship, but Barry had already had heart eyes for Iris. He stated how it was hard to live with a girl you had a crush on.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Actionmage

[catrice2]

I am just amazed at how Barry has had no real chemistry with anyone except for a few times when he was the Flash with Iris. With Linda the scenes came off like she was Mrs.Robinson and he was a little boy.  The scenes with Patty is like he is a geeky boy with a crush on the smart girl.  I can remember one rooftop and one other scene where I thought he was playing a grown man in love with a woman. 

 

I like action more than romance, but if if has to be a part of the show, at least do it well.  There was promise when Iris admitted her feelings to him before he turned back time or something, then nothing.  It is probably me, but I just get the feeling that the actors don't really interact outside of shooting...it just seems as if they are not even trying to sell the coupling...I don't know.

 

I am fine with Barry having a different love interest, but Iris should too. She and Eddie were not believable, but I thought she and Jay could be interesting, or they could bring in someone else.  

 

Whomever cast this show doesn't seem good noticing chemistry between actors.  Caitlyn and Ronnie didn't have any either...and I would not buy Cisco with anyone except a middle school girl..he is so much a little boy.  

 

Joe also needs someone...and he also has no chemistry with his "dead" wife.

[phoenics]

I think the writers made a huge mistake playing Barry Allen more like Wally West (which means it will be interesting when the real Wally gets here). The only times they managed to generate chemistry with GG was when he was wearing the suit and was "mysterious" and older. I think for some reason, he plays the Flash a bit older at certain times - specifically when he was around Iris.

That's why the rooftop scene was hot. That's why he and Iris sparked whenever he was dressed as the Flash.

*Sometimes* he manages more - like the episode when Joe was kidnapped and Barry and Iris kissed and Barry took her face in his hands.

Part of the issue is also the way the scenes are shot. I've noticed David Nutter isn't around this season and I think that's a huge mistake. If there was one thing he was good at, it was determining and bringing out chemistry. That scene on the roof? David Nutter directed it. David Nutter of Roswell Max and Liz fame.

Sometimes I feel like the show - from a romantic aspect - is being written/directed by Star Wars writers (they've sucked at this post the Solo-Leia days). Remember episode 2? Blech. They just didn't know how to block the scenes right so it fell flat. I still mourn for that scene where Anakin sabered that bug thing that had crawled onto Padme's bed. They didn't HOLD the eye contact scene between the two of them long enough for us to FEEL the chemistry, whatever was there.

That's part of the issue with The Flash. Scenes that should have an extra linger DON'T (although I really want to see that cut scene between Barry and Iris from this season when they are discussing her mom).

I think that's because comic fanboys don't know how to write romance properly. They barely manage it on Arrow and even then the scenes could be 1000% better.

Heck - go find Thania St. John from Lois & Clark.

Basically - I don't think the issue is JUST GG.

Did you see the CW guitar hero commercial battle with Candice Patton and David Ramsey (Diggle)? OMG - HOT - sparks flying EVERYWHERE. After that, I was actually angry that Diggle was married already with a kid. So I know the issue isn't CP either. She tends to skew a bit more mature than GG at times... which is why she's working more with The Flash and why GG's Barry seems not up to par for her. She's out of his league. They tried making Patty a complete and utter awkward goofball to come "down" to GG's Barry's awkward geek level, but it's not natural, imo.

The issue as I see it is that Barry Allen isn't supposed to be funny like Wally West. That's crippling his romantic chemistry because they can't go full tilt with that like say, Seth Cohen on The OC. THAT worked. But they're straddling the line with Barry and that's not fully working.

The only solution is for Barry to grow the bleep up.

[zannej]

Actionmage, while most of the kinship fosterings maybe done informally, I do know of cases where the courts were involved and relatives were fostering children and getting paid by the state. I think since Joe was NOT a relative, it had to have been done formally.

 

That still does not change Barry's relationship or feelings with Iris though.

[dirtypop90]

I don't think the show put as much thought into any of this as we have, but I do think if barry was a foster kid, and joe was his foster parent, or if there was an adoption, it would have been mentioned. I think we are supposed to believe this was all done informally.

Edited November 16, 2015 by dirtypop90

[zannej]

I could have sworn that at one point, Barry mentioned that Joe was his foster father. I'll have to re-watch to see if he mentions it or not though. But legally, Joe would have to go through formal channels to have fostered him since he was not a blood relative.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Is it me, or has S. 2 been almost devoid of scenes in which Barry (or any other character) even acknowledged Barry's former soulmatey interest in Iris?

 

I think it was implicitly acknowledged by Joe in giving Barry the thumb's up to pursue Patty. 

 

But it seems weird that it has gone from basically his all-consuming passion to barely even a mention.

 

Even if they were going to go with "I've moved on" or "The timing's not right with Eddie having just died," it seems like it merits something more, no??

[Ruby25]

Is it me, or has S. 2 been almost devoid of scenes in which Barry (or any other character) even acknowledged Barry's former soulmatey interest in Iris?

 

I think it was implicitly acknowledged by Joe in giving Barry the thumb's up to pursue Patty. 

 

But it seems weird that it has gone from basically his all-consuming passion to barely even a mention.

 

Even if they were going to go with "I've moved on" or "The timing's not right with Eddie having just died," it seems like it merits something more, no??

Absolutely. I think it's downright odd the way they're handling this, almost like they're trying to pretend last season never happened.

 

Iris doesn't even care at all that he's dating someone else? Not even the tiniest, sad glance or anything? No one else seems to remember that Iris is the love of Barry's life? The way Joe said she was "your first love" made it sound like they used to date and now they're friends, but umm...no, nothing ever happened. We never had any kind of resolution to that entire storyline that lasted ALL of last season.

 

Are they really tossing them out completely, like they did Oliver/Laurel on Arrow, because that sure seems to be what it looks like. It doesn't make any sense that no one would say anything about this, or that there wouldn't still be some feelings going on there, even if Barry's attempting to move on. Other shows keep the torch burning while the stalling romances are there, and there's not a single viewer who thinks Barry/Patty are anything but temporary, so no one is investing in that.

 

I don't understand what they're doing there. It's strange, and frankly, I think they may be making a big mistake and writing themselves into a corner if they DO intend to bring it back eventually, because where's it going to come from after so many episodes with nothing? It'll just pop back up out of nowhere? Even though Iris has expressed zero interest in him at all and doesn't even care that he has another girlfriend? You have to write some lingering, ongoing feelings if you intend to steer it back in that direction at some point. This makes it look like it's gone for good.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

Well, I've been thinking about this and I wonder if they've saved a lot of this for the back half of the season.  Most of this season has felt like stalling to me anyway - even the Zoom thing taking SO LONG to come to fruition feels like they almost started over and needed to build Team Flash back up again before really facing anyone.  The Zoom showdown with Barry felt like how broken he was after facing the man in yellow, with that being the impetus for him to go and kiss Patty, just like in S1 he confessed his feelings to Iris.

 

But still, I don't think they are completely dropping it - I just think that scene that was cut where Barry/Iris talk about her mother being cut hurt more than the editors realized.  

 

Plus, Barry did say, "She's not Iris."

 

Basically he's still in love with Iris, but since we aren't getting any Barry PoV on that anymore than that ONE line, then it feels like it's being dropped.  But even still, Joe's comments about exploring made it clear that this is temporary.  Joe's irritation with Patty when she tried to force Joe to listen to her talk about kissing Barry was basically US, lol.  Yeah, yeah Patty - whatever hon.  You are a distraction.  Temporary.  Barry is still in love with Iris - and once she wakes up and gets past the Eddie stuff, you're toast.  Or even before that.

 

I did have a thought that even after Patty, Barry might have a Caitlin dalliance that leads to Killer Frost.  My mind is prepping for all kinds of disaster scenarios.

 

But I'm more irritated that the show has wasted opportunities to give us friendship westallen scenes.  They're supposed to be best friends, but it hasn't felt like that since the season finale of Season 1.  This season, Iris has been there for Barry, but he really hasn't been there - at all - for her - except in that cut scene we keep hearing about.  And the writers made some stylistic vs character driven choices (the option to go with Cisco/Cait hovering over Barry when he woke up from Zoom's ass whooping as a stylistic callback to the pilot, when from a character driven PoV, after seeing him get dragged like that, there is NO WAY on EARTH that Iris wouldn't be there slumped over his body until he woke up).  Then there is the fact that they aren't developing Iris more as a reporter and giving her stuff that ties into the main action - except with Linda.  They've given that to Patty, when last season, Eddie didn't have or need that to stay involved.  It makes much more sense to leave that with Iris, since it was her blog that was the start of knowledge about the metas.  

 

It's just a lot of small and not so small writing choices that add up to this impression that they are gutting westallen and leaving them in S1 never to return again.  Some small rational part of me wants to say they won't do that and that Geoff Johns won't allow them to do it.

 

I do believe that they are playing down westallen so that 1) Batty looks better and 2) so that it isn't played the same way as ParkAllen, where that breakup came because Linda knew Barry was still in love with Iris (and maybe she him).  In the comics, Batty doesn't break up due to Iris, so I think they are trying to stick with that, but it's jarring.  Batty breaks up because she can't get over when Flash was Black Flash and also there was some issue with him not being honest with her I think.

 

That's my brain talking.

 

But the fearful and jaded part of me does worry that they are just going to go away from that.  If they ever killed off Joe, I could see them getting rid of Iris to push a white female lead (let's just be honest).  Or having Iris "die" and come back in another woman's body who's white.  I know I sound paranoid and the show would likely get pilloried in the press if the press was honest about racism and forms it takes, but... still...

 

I heard a rumor that Geoff Johns had to fight to make the West family black and while typically shows like the CW don't have an issue with black MALE characters (even if they sideline them), they have always struggled with black female characters.  Think Bonnie on TVD.  And a black leading female character?  The network heads probably exploded.  I really think there could be something to that - even though most of the promotion has involved CP a lot more lately.  I can't tell if the show just wants kudos for diversity and thinks token representation is enough to satisfy black and other PoC viewers, or if they are just in a holding pattern for the back half of the season.

 

I heard AK stepped down as show runner for The Flash apparently - and Gabrielle Stanton is now show runner?  Is that right?  She used to work with Shonda Rhymes, but that was pre-Scandal, so she could be operating under some biases herself.  Under her direction, Iris is definitely being marginalized.  

 

If Iris is still marginalized in the Wally West story once she goes to find Wally or Wally shows up and Wally gets powers, then I know it will be time for me to exit this show.  I refuse to support tokenism.

[Ruby25]

Crossing my fingers for the second half as well.

 

Frankly, the show sould SEIZE on the Linda/Iris dynamic at the paper, because that was good, people liked these last couple Linda episodes, and they could easily get rid of Patty, bring back Linda as a regular and set up Iris and Linda as investigative reporters together because it gives her a dynamic that obviously works, and it's something outside of Barry, so there's that. Plus, of course Linda and Wally are going to have to be explored at some point, so that makes a lot of sense for them to do imo.

 

Other than that, I still think it's very unwise of them to drop Barry/Iris the way they have, because no one is investing in Patty anyway and now people are wondering why it looks like the show has forgotten about WestAllen. It looks like a weird error that's being made. They should really fix that in the second half as fast as possible. If it takes Wally to bring them together, fine, but they need to do it.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Ruby25

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I understand that Iris is getting over Eddie sacrificing himself to save her and everyone - or at least is supposed to be - but unless I've missed something or am blanking on it, never once has she ever mentioned Eddie or shown looking sadly at a picture, or shown thinking of a memory of them together, etc.  Its like he never even existed or him and Iris weren't so close as for him to go so far as to propose to her.

 

That said, the lack of acknowledgement between B/I about their love for each other is even worse.  Seen mentioned above about how Barry said, re: Patty "she's not Iris".  He did, but that was to Joe, not Iris herself.

 

Its strange to me how much they are playing this relationship as more 'just good acquaintances', when its supposed to be so much more than that.  Even if they bring it all back in the in the 2nd half of the season, its still going to have a "where'd that come from" feel to it.  All I need(ed) was a sad look from Iris as Barry left to go see or with Patty - or Barry showing just a little bit of concern for her, when Iris' "dead" mother shows up.  

 

But I'm not a producer, writer or director, so my thoughts are worth about the same value as dirt.

Edited November 19, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Ruby25]

No, I'm with you. I think a lot of people think it's at least odd that the show is acting like it never happened. When Candice Patton did a round of interviews last week, I think Variety (or one of them, maybe it was The Wrap) flat out asked her what happened to the Barry/Iris romance. Of course, she's just the actress, somebody needs to ask one of the producers what's going on, since they're the ones writing this stuff.

 

It would help to not cut emotional scenes between the two of them. I do think they're making a mistake by not acknowledging it at all.

[phoenics]

I understand that Iris is getting over Eddie sacrificing himself to save her and everyone - or at least is supposed to be - but unless I've missed something or am blanking on it, never once has she ever mentioned Eddie or shown looking sadly at a picture, or shown thinking of a memory of them together, etc.  Its like he never even existed or him and Iris weren't so close as for him to go so far as to propose to her.

 

That said, the lack of acknowledgement between B/I about their love for each other is even worse.  Seen mentioned above about how Barry said, re: Patty "she's not Iris".  He did, but that was to Joe, not Iris herself.

 

Its strange to me how much they are playing this relationship as more 'just good acquaintances', when its supposed to be so much more than that.  Even if they bring it all back in the in the 2nd half of the season, its still going to have a "where'd that come from" feel to it.  All I need(ed) was a sad look from Iris as Barry left to go see or with Patty - or Barry showing just a little bit of concern for her, when Iris' "dead" mother shows up.  

 

But I'm not a producer, writer or director, so my thoughts are worth about the same value as dirt.

 

I do agree with this.... my suspicion is that they are downplaying WA to prop Batty up but also to make sure we don't compare Batty to ParkAllen.

 

But instead it just seems like they're sidelining Iris and Westallen.  I think I could have handled Westallen being sidelined better (friendship and relationship) if Iris wasn't also sidelined.  It just feels ugly.

 

And I could be wrong and they are sidelining Westallen forever - but sheesh I really hope not.  That would just be ... awful and so, so bad.  It's not a ratings issue either - the ratings are consistent with last year except just slightly lower.

 

I hope it's just poor writing.  I also feel like they've been spinning their wheels all season waiting to get to the "good part".

 

But I totally agree that we should at the very least see something register on Iris' face.  What bothers me is that she's not shown grieving for Eddie except for one look at a picture, or someone just mentioning it (not even her), but we aren't seeing her react at all to BarryxPatty - except for the awkward "great! great!" thing she does that was the same as what she did when it happened with BarryxLinda.  

 

I guess I thought this season was going to show Iris' feelings waking up for Barry.  But even without that, I thought we'd at least get BFF westallen scenes.  So far, really none.  Except the pilot and when Iris had to show/tell Barry what was what.

 

I keep thinking back to an interview CP gave where she said the show runners wanted the show to go on for many years so no westallen yet... but does that mean they're holding that off for a really long time or just the first half of S2?  Or all of S2?

 

And give Iris a reason to be in the lab other than just being there for Barry - she's a reporter.  USE THAT!  Ugh that is so frustrating.

No, I'm with you. I think a lot of people think it's at least odd that the show is acting like it never happened. When Candice Patton did a round of interviews last week, I think Variety (or one of them, maybe it was The Wrap) flat out asked her what happened to the Barry/Iris romance. Of course, she's just the actress, somebody needs to ask one of the producers what's going on, since they're the ones writing this stuff.

 

It would help to not cut emotional scenes between the two of them. I do think they're making a mistake by not acknowledging it at all.

 

What did Candice say in response to that question?  Did she just talk about BarryxPatty and how she's getting over Eddie?

[Ruby25]

Yeah, it was the usual. Iris is busy, relationships aren't on her mind, etc. Again though, she's just the actor, for actual answers we need to hear from a writer or producer here.

 

I also thought for sure we'd see Iris's feelings for Barry waking up this season. Maybe that's the second half? But, I just don't understand how that would happen if she doesn't care about Patty at all. If Patty isn't something that wakes up Iris's feelings for Barry, what would? I personally think if she has any feelings for him at all, seeing him with someone else should bother her, at least a TINY bit. I mean, doesn't that do it for most people? If she cares not one bit, then it seems clear that she has no feelings for him that way.

 

And I don't know how they write themselves out of the impression this is leaving. This is all assuming that they DO intend to bring it back, and they're not just dropping it altogether (tbh, this is the kind of thing I would expect if they were dropping it altogether, which alarms me).

 

I also don't think it's very fair to the audience to just move on like this without acknowledging anything or even RESOLVING any of this from last season. They left it hanging and now they're just erasing the storyline's existence? What kind of writing is that? Make it clear one way or another.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Ruby25

[CabotCove]

Are they really tossing them out completely, like they did Oliver/Laurel on Arrow, because that sure seems to be what it looks like. It doesn't make any sense that no one would say anything about this, or that there wouldn't still be some feelings going on there, even if Barry's attempting to move on. Other shows keep the torch burning while the stalling romances are there, and there's not a single viewer who thinks Barry/Patty are anything but temporary, so no one is investing in that.

I don't understand what they're doing there. It's strange, and frankly, I think they may be making a big mistake and writing themselves into a corner if they DO intend to bring it back eventually, because where's it going to come from after so many episodes with nothing?

 

  I dont believe they are dropping WestAllen, there is still subtext and subtle anvils alluding to them IMO, yeah not everyone is gonna get it but it still counts for canon. Its a way for the writers to have their cake and eat it too, make it look like Batty actually has a real chance whilst keeping WestAllen simmering in the background, focusing on partnership and friendship. Its about the smaller moments too.   

If they were dropped they wouldnt even have any kind of scenes, in the Flarrowverse thats how you completely get tossed out like Oliver/Laurel. 

Edited November 19, 2015 by WildcardC

[phoenics]

I guess I just look at Roswell and Max and Liz... even when they were broken up, there was still a tie between them that you felt in your bones.  Here?  Not enough.  The look Barry gave Iris over his dad's shoulder did parallel a scene on Merlin with Gwen looking over Morgana's shoulder at Arthur as he walked away was similar... but they held it longer... 

 

I think the problem is that they don't have any real reasons or obstacles to keep Westallen apart, so they just downplay it and bring in another LI to drag it out.  It's just bad romantic storytelling.  Really bad.

[Ruby25]

Well, the two of them could have easily had some kind of conversation where Iris tells him that she's not ready because of Eddie's death, and that she thinks he should move on in the meantime. Even something as simple as that could have kept things going, we still sometimes see her give a sad look at Barry when he mentions Patty, anything like that could have worked.

 

This flat out ignoring everything is the worst option they could have picked- it leaves people wondering what's going on and if they're retconning. If they do want to pick it up later they gotta leave little tiny seeds along the way. That's all I'm saying.

[phoenics]

I agree.  Especially about causing panic that they are retconning.  The Flash feels like it's going the way of Sleepy Hollow in S2.  And that show hasn't recovered.

Edited November 19, 2015 by phoenics

[CabotCove]

 I guess I just look at Roswell and Max and Liz... even when they were broken up, there was still a tie between them that you felt in your bones.Here?  Not enough.

 

Well I was more of an Michael/Maria fan, so I cant say I remember much of Max/Liz story but I do know that their feelings were very much mutual from the very beginning. Iris is not there yet from what I can tell, she might not even know she has feelings for Barry or they are suppressed. So I think Barry/Iris are starting on a different playing field from Max/Liz. Iris doesn't act interested in Barry because she is not aware of it (IMO), and now Barry is reacting accordingly otherwise he might start to look like a creep?. Then there is the Eddie factor on why they are suppressing their feelings for the other, I believe. But I think at some point, Iris feelings will awaken again, we already saw they exist in that erased timeline, right?. Then Barry will not have to suppress his for her too. 

 

And I think Flarrow writers may just love to write more subtly, I believe Flash is following the same formula. Oliver & Felicity too had complains that they came out of nowhere in season 3. Oliver was like Iris, his feelings for Felicity were not as explicitly shown but existed through subtext and subtle hints.  

 

I think the problem is that they don't have any real reasons or obstacles to keep Westallen apart, so they just downplay it and bring in another LI to drag it out.  It's just bad romantic storytelling.  Really bad.

 

Yeah I think they are pretty bad at stalling romances, but I  suppose its a necessary evil, by season's end it will likely pay off. 

 

Even something as simple as that could have kept things going, we still sometimes see her give a sad look at Barry when he mentions Patty, anything like that could have worked.

 

Maybe that will happen later in the season, when Iris becomes aware of her feelings for Barry?. I noticed she reacted the same way to Patty as she did Linda , to me that was a subtle thing that subconsciously she has feelings for Barry. 

Edited November 19, 2015 by WildcardC

[Ruby25]

I don't understand what would awaken Iris's feelings though, if this Patty thing doesn't do it. Doesn't it seem like this should bother her at least a tad, if she has suppressed feelings for Barry in there somewhere?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

The thing that gets me most with not even showing the stuff like 'little looks that imply 'still there, but buried' feelings', is that when Iris is shown to react to something about Patty, from Barry (or Joe), she smiles this big wide smile that looks totally genuine, that she's completely happy for him and doesn't ever remember her "buried" feelings of a romantic nature for Barry.  I don't sense any hiding of sorrow or bruised feelings behind those smiles or words of encouragement.

 

When Barry was with Linda, the WA was palpable, even so much that both Linda and Eddie were feeling like serious 'third/fifth wheels' on a double-date.  And then there was that scene when Barry lied to Iris and told her they couldn't be together, and then won Linda back with eating the hot pepper, Iris looked on sadly and those smiles she gave to both B & L were very false and badly hiding her hurt.

 

This season, she looks completely genuine in her approval of 'Batty'.

 

I just don't get it.  Even if WA won't concretely happen for a few more seasons yet - which I am sure will be the case, 'cause CW ya know - I still need teeny tiny hints that they both feel like they want to possibly explore something between them, at some point in time.  And just a bit more than the occasional throw-away line or reference(s) to the other person when talking to other people.

Edited November 19, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Ruby25]

Exactly. We need to still see there's a possiblity there if they want to keep the thread going. Especially from Iris, because we don't know quite how she feels, but we know there's supposed to be SOMETHING there. Now it's like that's disappeared, and it shouldn't have completely disappeared just because of Eddie's death. That's bad writing. If it's there it would still be there right now, and we need to see some hint of it. She doesn't have to sabotage his relationship, but we need to know that she has those feelings still.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Ruby25

[CabotCove]

I don't understand what would awaken Iris's feelings though, if this Patty thing doesn't do it. Doesn't it seem like this should bother her at least a tad, if she has suppressed feelings for Barry in there somewhere?

 

Well first I think we have to remember she is mourning Eddie, her feelings for Barry are even  more suppressed than before IMO. And then she is Barry's best friend, she would want him to be happy regardless of her feelings. She is unable to give him her heart, of course she would support him to find happiness but subtly or subconsciously I think they have shown she is a little bit bothered by Patty. "She is great , so great!  she said the same thing to Patty as she said of Linda, in a similar tone too. Well we all know how that went and that double date. Batty have also just started dating, Iris might not think this is going to get serious. When she sees that her bud is not always around anymore or that Patty is always around Barry, that could really awaken her feelings?.  There is still the second half of the season.

Edited November 19, 2015 by WildcardC

[zannej]

I would have thought that seeing Barry being dragged around by Zoom might have brought out Iris' feelings for Barry, but she didn't seem overly worried and this time she didn't give him pep talks like she did the first time he fought Grodd. I don't know if its that she's still reeling from Eddie (but she doesn't seem to show any sense of sadness) or if its that she's compartmentalizing and suppressing her feelings to try to avoid getting hurt again or what.

[SevenStars]

When Barry was with Linda, the WA was palpable, even so much that both Linda and Eddie were feeling like serious 'third/fifth wheels' on a double-date. And then there was that scene when Barry lied to Iris and told her they couldn't be together, and then won Linda back with eating the hot pepper, Iris looked on sadly and those smiles she gave to both B & L were very false and badly hiding her hurt.

This season, she looks completely genuine in her approval of 'Batty'.

If I remember correctly, this is when the hatred/dislike for Iris went into overdrive that season. People were accusing her of being selfish, self-center and mean bitch for reacting this way. Linda went to her,talked to her about dating Barry and she gave an honest answer but people accused her of intentionally trying to sabotage Barry's relationship. Everything she did was seen in an ugly light. Most of the fans gave her no leeway to act as someone who has feelings for Barry but is not really aware of those feelings yet. The Fandom was brutal on Iris during that time.

I think the writers noticed this and decide that this season they would go a different route when Barry got a LI. I actually think this is the writers way of trying to protect Iris from being hated on so much like she was last season. Because even when she was just being a friend to Barry last season, people accused her of giving Barry mix signal and leading him on when she had no intention of being with him.

So I think the writers are trying not to let the same thing happen again. Instead they are going to just show Iris in love with Barry when they are ready to take their relationship there.

The writers don't realize that the main reason fans reacted this way is because they gave Iris no pov. Therefore, the fans had no context for her reaction/actions. So fans who were indifferent/disliked Iris assumed the worst.

So this season they should have kept the same writing for the most part and just gave her a pov. Because it's clear to me the writers are going out of their way to make Iris as perfect as possible to keep the fans from hating her, even when it means that we see no really development to her character or see her react in a human way. They made the mistake of thinking it was Iris' imperfections that made fans dislike her and not the lack of pov Iris had that caused much of the dislike.

Edited November 19, 2015 by SevenStars

[SevenStars]

Well first I think we have to remember she is mourning Eddie, her feelings for Barry are even more suppressed than before IMO. And then she is Barry's best friend, she would want him to be happy regardless of her feelings. She is unable to give him her heart, of course she would support him to find happiness but subtly or subconsciously I think they have shown she is a little bit bothered by Patty. "She is great , so great! she said the same thing to Patty as she said of Linda, in a similar tone too. Well we all know how that went and that double date. Batty have also just started dating, Iris might not think this is going to get serious. When she sees that her bud is not always around anymore or that Patty is always around Barry, that could really awaken her feelings?. There is still the second half of the season.

I love and agree with this. The problem is that we are not seeing this on screen. If we were seeing this on screen, we wouldn't be questioning whether the writers are done with WestAllen or not. I personally don't think they are done but to the average viewer, this relationship is done with.

[nksarmi]

Ok what I think is strange is that things that would make sense aren't happening. 

 

In an episode where Iris called Barry's dad to come help him through his issues - Barry would have thanked her for that.

As others have said, after seeing what Zoom did to Barry, Iris would have been by his bedside at some point and they could have shown a quick glimpse of that.

I actually think Iris would have gone to Barry to help her decide if she should tell her dad about the possibility of her mom having another child.

 

It actually seems out of character for these things NOT to be happening. So yea, it's not just that West Allen have been sidelined or that Iris isn't getting enough screen time - it's that someone is overcompensating in an effort to keep them apart.  To the point where things don't feel natural anymore.

 

Though I have to say that I really think this might be about the father/son dynamic this show seems to want to hammer over the head so damn bad as much as anything else. I mean, between the man pain, main tears, and male bonding - I think the show might lose me (and I really don't want it to).  I know I can be all yea, girl power! at times, and I guess it's cool that they are showing manly men can cry and have feelings too - but it's also ok to let men and women relate to each other as well. The Caitlyn / Harry stuff was good - so let's just try that with Barry and Iris instead. 

[Ruby25]

If I remember correctly, this is when the hatred/dislike for Iris went into overdrive that season. People were accusing her of being selfish, self-center and mean bitch for reacting this way. Linda went to her,talked to her about dating Barry and she gave an honest answer but people accused her of intentionally trying to sabotage Barry's relationship. Everything she did was seen in an ugly light. Most of the fans gave her no leeway to act as someone who has feelings for Barry but is not really aware of those feelings yet. The Fandom was brutal on Iris during that time.

I think the writers noticed this and decide that this season they would go a different route when Barry got a LI. I actually think this is the writers way of trying to protect Iris from being hated on so much like she was last season. Because even when she was just being a friend to Barry last season, people accused her of giving Barry mix signal and leading him on when she had no intention of being with him.

So I think the writers are trying not to let the same thing happen again. Instead they are going to just show Iris in love with Barry when they are ready to take their relationship there.

 

This is probably true too. I just hope they're going to fix all this in the second half and bring them back to each other fairly quickly. Too many episodes with nothing between them and people are already thinking it's odd that the show seems to have forgotten the whole storyline.

[phoenics]

If I remember correctly, this is when the hatred/dislike for Iris went into overdrive that season. People were accusing her of being selfish, self-center and mean bitch for reacting this way. Linda went to her,talked to her about dating Barry and she gave an honest answer but people accused her of intentionally trying to sabotage Barry's relationship. Everything she did was seen in an ugly light. Most of the fans gave her no leeway to act as someone who has feelings for Barry but is not really aware of those feelings yet. The Fandom was brutal on Iris during that time.

I think the writers noticed this and decide that this season they would go a different route when Barry got a LI. I actually think this is the writers way of trying to protect Iris from being hated on so much like she was last season. Because even when she was just being a friend to Barry last season, people accused her of giving Barry mix signal and leading him on when she had no intention of being with him.

So I think the writers are trying not to let the same thing happen again. Instead they are going to just show Iris in love with Barry when they are ready to take their relationship there.

The writers don't realize that the main reason fans reacted this way is because they gave Iris no pov. Therefore, the fans had no context for her reaction/actions. So fans who were indifferent/disliked Iris assumed the worst.

So this season they should have kept the same writing for the most part and just gave her a pov. Because it's clear to me the writers are going out of their way to make Iris as perfect as possible to keep the fans from hating her, even when it means that we see no really development to her character or see her react in a human way. They made the mistake of thinking it was Iris' imperfections that made fans dislike her and not the lack of pov Iris had that caused much of the dislike.

I was coming here to say pretty much the same exact thing! I think some of this is definitely the writers trying to "shield" Iris. Even Patty being written as a complete and utter Mary Sue is them trying to get fans not to hate her - but since they seemed to make her sound like the result of a fanboy focus group.

I think the writers didn't want to invite comparisons to ParkWest last season - and I think you are so right. The issue was that Iris had no PoV so she just looked like she was pooping in Barry's cereal with Linda.

This season the writers still aren't giving Iris a PoV, which is really, really frustrating. They still haven't learned.

The other issue they have is that they are very plot driven. Right now their plot is Batty, so Iris is sidelined because she's not the main LI right now - but honestly we should start to see some confusion or awakening happening with Iris even if she does nothing. In fact, having her give a PoV that she's feeling something for Barry, but because of Eddie and Patty, she's suppressing it? And then seeing her sacrificing her feelings for them and feeling uncertain about Barry's feelings for her?

I had hoped that Linda would provide that opportunity for Iris' PoV - because she's definitely not getting that with Barry. Barry has Joe as his best bud and he can tell Joe that "She's not Iris." but Iris doesn't know that. And we don't know how Iris feels.... I'm so frustrated with this.

[zannej]

As mentioned in another thread, you'd think that Barry would have learned from his mistakes with Iris and that if he really is into Patty, he should tell her the truth. It would make things a lot easier on him and Joe to bring Patty into the loop. I think she would know that telling other people could get Barry or his family hurt or killed, and if she really cares about him, she would keep his secret. I think he should clue her in or cut her loose. The lying and trying to hide things from her will only get worse and cause viewers more secondhand embarrassment. I wonder if Patty already suspects that Barry is the Flash-- I mean, she'd have to be an idiot to not suspect given a few factors:

1. The Flash first turned up shortly after Barry woke from his coma

2. She knows that Joe can get in touch with the Flash

3. Immediately after Zoom parades around town with the Flash as his ragdoll, Barry claims to be sick and doesn't want to be seen

4. Both Barry and Joe lie to Patty about things and its obvious to her that they are lying

5. Barry often has to run off at odd times

 

Even though I'm still trying or bring myself to like Patty, I would be interested in seeing how she would react to sightings of Harrison Wells around town and maybe even seeing him herself.

 

If the timeline hadn't been changed by Eobard, I wonder at what point in time Iris and Barry would have hooked up. I also wonder who Eddie would have hooked up with. I suspect that if Eobard hadn't bumped up the timeline, that Eddie wouldn't have stopped that mugger & Barry would not have been in a coma-- leaving Eddie to console Iris and fall in love. I sometimes fanwank that maybe Eddie might have ended up with Patty.

 

I know that the relationship always seemed somewhat one-sided, with Barry pining after Iris and her seeming more like a best friend/sister in some ways, but I wish they would still show that Barry cares about Iris as much as he used to. It's like he just gave up on her after what happened with Eddie. And I really wish Iris had been shown at Barry's bedside worrying about him. Its not even a matter of doing it for a love interest, but for a close friend. I've had a few friends die in the past few years and I've sat with them in the hospital with them while they were dying. I sat with a friend who was lucky enough to survive and was there for him during his recovery. It's just a thing good friends do for one another. I'm just not seeing that same level of concern and care with Iris anymore though. I don't know if its because she's trying to not get hurt again, or if the writers are just wanting to put the WestAllen relationship on the back burner for now.

 

Since we're talking about relationships-- while I don't really ship them, I think that Caitlin and Dr Wells have more chemistry than Caitlin and Jay.

[phoenics]

Totes agree about Caitlin and Wells. They really had a very nice chemistry - I was surprised. I think Caitlin is allowed to be a bit more grown around Wells and his eyes look so warm with respect to her. Even when he knew she was trying to stall him last season, TC's eyes still generated this warmth for her. Can't explain it.

That brings me back to issues with Gustin - I can't wait until Wally gets here - I'm hoping Barry looks or gets more mature as a result and by comparison. It will help his chemistry with everyone.

They really shouldn't have compared Patty in media to Felicity. It just made it seem like they were Laurel-ing Iris and giving Barry a brand new Felicity to replace Iris and Westallen. It was really disrespectful. Now that I think about it - since Patty isn't like Felicity at all except she's awkward (and that's really painful to watch - EBR managed it to be more real even if I still cringed for her - it wasn't so "in your face" the way it is with Patty). And honestly, she's more like Barry than she is Felicity. Felicity and Barry worked because they were both brilliant scientists - very cerebral and smart people. Barry wasn't goofy with EBR - he was more calm on the backdoor pilot from Arrow. And he was also very subtle in his scenes with Iris, so those worked - and they worked EVEN more in his Flash scenes with Iris.

With Patty it's .... I don't know - too much toothy grinning?

The best thing they could do right now with Iris is to show her silently pining away for Barry, but not doing anything to harm Batty. That would surely pull a lot of people onboard with her - fangirls LOVE to get behind the underdog - so if Iris pines and is oh so helpful but Barry seems to have moved on and Iris accepts it but still obviously has feelings (that others like Linda notice and call out) then Iris would probably get a lot more folks behind her.

It's not rocket science writers.

[zannej]

Totes agree about Caitlin and Wells. They really had a very nice chemistry - I was surprised. I think Caitlin is allowed to be a bit more grown around Wells and his eyes look so warm with respect to her. Even when he knew she was trying to stall him last season, TC's eyes still generated this warmth for her. Can't explain it.

That brings me back to issues with Gustin - I can't wait until Wally gets here - I'm hoping Barry looks or gets more mature as a result and by comparison. It will help his chemistry with everyone.

They really shouldn't have compared Patty in media to Felicity. It just made it seem like they were Laurel-ing Iris and giving Barry a brand new Felicity to replace Iris and Westallen. It was really disrespectful. Now that I think about it - since Patty isn't like Felicity at all except she's awkward (and that's really painful to watch - EBR managed it to be more real even if I still cringed for her - it wasn't so "in your face" the way it is with Patty). And honestly, she's more like Barry than she is Felicity. Felicity and Barry worked because they were both brilliant scientists - very cerebral and smart people. Barry wasn't goofy with EBR - he was more calm on the backdoor pilot from Arrow. And he was also very subtle in his scenes with Iris, so those worked - and they worked EVEN more in his Flash scenes with Iris.

With Patty it's .... I don't know - too much toothy grinning?

The best thing they could do right now with Iris is to show her silently pining away for Barry, but not doing anything to harm Batty. That would surely pull a lot of people onboard with her - fangirls LOVE to get behind the underdog - so if Iris pines and is oh so helpful but Barry seems to have moved on and Iris accepts it but still obviously has feelings (that others like Linda notice and call out) then Iris would probably get a lot more folks behind her.

It's not rocket science writers.

Highlighting the portions to which I'm responding because I don't know how to break up the quotes properly.

 

I think the Wells/Caitlin chemistry comes from Tom and Danielle seeming to be close. I've seen behind-the-scenes photos of them and Tom seems quite fond of her. I recall at some comic-con panel, Tom was actively trying to get the audience to cheer for Danielle. He seems to be very fond of Carlos and Grant as well. I think that is part of what made it believable that Eobard did actually love them. The cast all seem to genuinely get along well. Its actually a pity that we got to see Eobard tell both Cisco and Barry that he loved them, but we didn't have a moment like that with Caitlin-- although, it was clear that of all of the team, Caitlin was the last to accept the truth about him. I think that may be part of why she wanted Harry to stick around-- she still had some warm feelings toward Wells.

 

I agree that with Patty there is just too much eye-squinting and grinning to the point I think it might hurt their faces. There is something artificial and forced about it. Felicity's awkwardness is endearing to me. Patty's is off-putting to me. I feel like Barry is sort of putting on a show for Patty instead of just being himself in some regards. With Iris, he just seemed more comfortable.

 

The only problem with the silent pining is that I'm certain there will be some people who bemoan that it is somehow sexist and demeaning to have the female character pining for Barry. But I do agree that it would be nice to see Iris showing more concern for Barry and maybe a little interest. Maybe she could get uncomfortable and look away if she saw Barry kissing Patty. I also wouldn't mind seeing Iris get to know Cisco and Caitlin better.

[Ruby25]

Iris getting to know Cisco and Caitlin is a great idea. Why they haven't done that already seems odd to me. If they could have the four of them be friends that would help with the whole integration of Iris thing.

 

But Iris/Linda at the paper is even better- they need to jump on that idea. Get rid of Patty and bring Linda back as another female regular.

[phoenics]

The only problem with the silent pining is that I'm certain there will be some people who bemoan that it is somehow sexist and demeaning to have the female character pining for Barry. But I do agree that it would be nice to see Iris showing more concern for Barry and maybe a little interest. Maybe she could get uncomfortable and look away if she saw Barry kissing Patty. I also wouldn't mind seeing Iris get to know Cisco and Caitlin better.

I guess I don't understand this? Because isn't this typically how it happens? Especially with "friends"? Well, the friends who end up together. It rarely happens perfectly. Usually one of them feels something first and then the next. And sometimes it doesn't happen until one person says they have feelings.

Take Lois & Clark for example. You had Clark pine for Lois ALL Season One long. The ENTIRE season. But she was in love with Supes. Clark finally fessed up but Lois was still pining for Supes. Then Lois tried to go for Supes, but since he knew she'd rejected his real self (Clark) he turned her down and she was set to marry Luthor. Then in a moment of panic she realized she did have feelings for Clark, but when she tried to tell him, he took back his love confession to make their friendship comfortable again.

Then over the next season, they showed them getting much closer with more longing looks, etc.. and Lois' jealousy when Mason showed up and had eyes for Clark. Then Lois and Clark finally got together with Lois choosing Clark over Superman.

It was like a ping pong match, but it was good.

The show needs to find a similar groove with Iris and Barry. Show us that Iris DOES have feelings for Barry and build on it - at least from her end. Isn't that what the show did with Felicity? She was obviously in love with Oliver, but his feelings were completely and utterly cloaked. I was one of the ones who didn't believe it and felt it was fan service (still do). I believe it more now, but it DID come out of left field because they never gave us enough PoV where Oliver was concerned with Felicity.

Here, Iris is clearly Oliver. So they need to just put her in the Felicity position right now and put Barry in the Oliver position. And right now is the perfect and easy time to do it. Barry is with Patty so it makes sense that he'd be wrapped up in that right now and we wouldn't see what his feelings are. But we SHOULD start to see Iris' feelings soon and have someone on the show comment on it (Linda or even her dad, or even Wally who is just perceptive). But let them simmer a while. Let her fear losing him too just like he did with her - it will even things out between them and hopefully make Barry seem less puppy dog ish with her and more like a man.

And let her refuse to say anything because he looks so happy and she knows from experience what it feels like to get blindsided like that when you're happy in a relationship and in an impossible situation. She doesn't want that for him so she's just going to keep it to herself to let him be happy.

But then of course the romance gods won't allow that and something will happen to force an "I love you" or something to that effect out of Iris in order to pull Barry back out of the speed force, etc.. It won't be a planned moment - it couldn't. It would just slip out. And then Barry would have to make a choice. Or maybe by then Patty will be gone and Barry can finally just decide to be with Iris.

I like my version.

[hogwash]

I think it's a good thing they've stopped overtly showing Barry's feeling for Iris. The nerd with unrequited feelings for his gorgeous, sweet childhood friend is not new territory. Most of the time, people just blindly root for the nerd to get the girl. Obviously there's grossness/racism behind some Barry/Iris hate, but it was hard to root for Barry. He was so OTT and entitled about Iris five episodes into S01. Even the friendship scenes were frustrating to watch because it felt like he was angling for an opening instead of just interacting with his BFF. Maybe we were supposed to impressed(?) by how gone he was for her and root for them together. I just wanted him to get a freaking grip. It was some of the worst aspects you could go for with an unrequited love/childhood friends romance.

 

I'm cool with them backing off with that grossness while they figure out how else they can build to the romance. Showing them as BFFs with no agenda from Barry would really work. So I don't get why they've mostly dropped the friendship or why Barry's being so closed off. It seems deliberate. Life-changing, horrible things are happening to both of them and they've talked once. That's fine for Barry since he has a life coach posse always at his disposal. But If Iris can't talk to Barry, who else is she supposed to talk to? Eddie and Linda (if she counts) are gone and Barry's the person she's supposed to closest to on the show.

[catrice2]

I just think that the show needs to stay away from romance.  I think except for the captain and the 2nd half of Firestorm ( I can't remember his name, Martin?) those are the only two couples that were briefly seen to be functional.  Every other pairing on this show has been ill advised and/or boring.  When the Flash focuses on the villain of the week and the action it does well...when it veers into relationships it is not so great.  The best relationship on the show is Joe and Barry. I wish they would stop trying to make Caitlyn and anyone happen...the actress has no chemistry with anyone. Jay and Iris was the way to go....that would have been the right kind of conflict! 

[SevenStars]

Jay and Iris was the way to go....that would have been the right kind of conflict!

Also, Barry and Jessica, if the actors have chemistry, would make an interest couple with built in conflict.

[Tazmania]

Is it me, or has S. 2 been almost devoid of scenes in which Barry (or any other character) even acknowledged Barry's former soulmatey interest in Iris?

 

I think it was implicitly acknowledged by Joe in giving Barry the thumb's up to pursue Patty. 

 

But it seems weird that it has gone from basically his all-consuming passion to barely even a mention.

 

Even if they were going to go with "I've moved on" or "The timing's not right with Eddie having just died," it seems like it merits something more, no??

 

Kriesberg is following the Arrow formula to the T. 

S1 was a triangle between the hero, his long lost love/object of affection and her really nice and good looking boyfriend/fiance who loved the girl to death. Both Tommy and Eddie died rather heroically at the end of S1 of the respective shows and when S2 starts, its like both the heroes forgot that they were crushing so hard on these girls when they had actual boyfriends but now that those guys are dead, they must move on to other women. Oliver did that with Isabel and Sara in S2 and Barry is now dating Patty. At least they are giving Patty and Barry sometime to grow into their relationship and I really like their first date  - unlike Oliver having a random one night stand with Isabel and the weirdest lunge in the history of TV sex with zero build up. 

Not sure if they are gonna turn Iris into Flash's Laurel Lance or would they give her a different destiny with actual purpose. 

[Ruby25]

The only thing I would argue there is that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent Felicity character on The Flash to replace Iris with as the long-term love interest, so maybe they just want Barry to have some experience with someone else first before going back to Barry/Iris? It still seems odd that they've dumped it altogether if that's their plan though.

[zannej]

I actually think Caitlin has good chemistry with Wells, but not sexual chemistry. There is a father/daughter vibe there.

[phoenics]

I think the writers are just doing the same Arrow formula - but remember, Olicity wasn't really that formula. That was a deviation. Presumably, all roads would have led back to Lauriver at some point, so I expect to see that here too. Especially because of Geoff Johns. The Flash is sticking as closely to comics as they can and we can't have Bart, or the twins without Iris, so...

Plus, the show has already shown that Iris is Barry's lightning rod - that spark between them the two times wasn't random - it's based in comic canon - specifically the speed force.

No way Geoff Johns is gonna give that up, imo. It would destroy a ton of Flash mythology.

I'm sure a lot of fans will hate this, but I honestly think Olicity has messed up Arrow. And perhaps Laurel and the way they wrote her messed up Arrow. But mostly, Oliver messed up Arrow because he was written as worse than all of the women. It still bothers me that he's loved/admired/praised/lusted after by the fandom, but Laurel is brutalized. Her anger at him was justified. He was a jerk - he slept with her sister, she presumably died and then she comes back from the dead and he keeps that from her still? What a terrible person. And then she comes back to the present alive and he gets back together with her? WTF? And Laurel is the one who is hated?

Honestly, I felt like when they brought Sara onboard, they were going to 86 Laurel. Initially. I also think by that point they'd decided that they would switch to Olicity. Bringing Sara onboard effectively killed any chance of Lauriver happening ever again - that's when the retcons started and that's when they started being more obvious with Olicity.

I don't see that same thing happening here with Westallen. I just see lazy writing. They haven't retconned anything - yet. If they do and they get rid of the whole Iris-lightning-rod-speed-force stuff then I may reconsider, but right now I just think they are trying to back off to protect the Iris character from hatred so they can come back to westallen again.

I hope some of the fans who magically like her this season now that she's just on the sidelines and "just the friend" don't "take it back" when she and Barry get romantic. If they give Iris a PoV, I think they'd have a better chance of that.

[Enero]

I'm sure a lot of fans will hate this, but I honestly think Olicity has messed up Arrow. And perhaps Laurel and the way they wrote her messed up Arrow. But mostly, Oliver messed up Arrow because he was written as worse than all of the women. It still bothers me that he's loved/admired/praised/lusted after by the fandom, but Laurel is brutalized. Her anger at him was justified. He was a jerk - he slept with her sister, she presumably died and then she comes back from the dead and he keeps that from her still? What a terrible person. And then she comes back to the present alive and he gets back together with her? WTF? And Laurel is the one who is hated?

I hope some of the fans who magically like her this season now that she's just on the sidelines and "just the friend" don't "take it back" when she and Barry get romantic. If they give Iris a PoV, I think they'd have a better chance of that.

 

I had to delurk and be your amen corner about Arrow. Laurel was not my favorite character on the show, but I think the character and perhaps the actress too, got a raw deal. And I agree, though SA is hotness personified, Oliver Queen is a bastard of the lowest order. The fact that he is now settled down with Felicity, living a life of celibacy is completely mind blowing and unrealistic, to me, considering the philandering that seems to be apart of his very essence.

 

Regarding WestAllen, honestly I'll believe the writers will give that a go when I see it. Despite some viewers misgivings, Patty seems to have taken off well. She's no Felicity with regard to popularity, but from what I've read audiences are enjoying her relationship with Barry, while Iris continues to be a non-factor. I think if she, Iris, disappeared from canvas tomorrow never to be seen again, most wouldn't miss her because the writers have failed to make the audience care about her much less want to see her.  Anyway, I think the show is a long way off from exploring WestAllen again. From what I understand they're rarely sharing scenes and when they do share a scene there's not a crumb for the shippers to be found.

[Ruby25]

I had to delurk and be your amen corner about Arrow. Laurel was not my favorite character on the show, but I think the character and perhaps the actress too, got a raw deal. And I agree, though SA is hotness personified, Oliver Queen is a bastard of the lowest order. The fact that he is now settled down with Felicity, living a life of celibacy is completely mind blowing and unrealistic, to me, considering the philandering that seems to be apart of his very essence.

 

Regarding WestAllen, honestly I'll believe the writers will give that a go when I see it. Despite some viewers misgivings, Patty seems to have taken off well. She's no Felicity with regard to popularity, but from what I've read audiences are enjoying her relationship with Barry, while Iris continues to be a non-factor. I think if she, Iris, disappeared from canvas tomorrow never to be seen again, most wouldn't miss her because the writers have failed to make the audience care about her much less want to see her.  Anyway, I think the show is a long way off from exploring WestAllen again. From what I understand they're rarely sharing scenes and when they do share a scene there's not a crumb for the shippers to be found.

Well, you know what, that's a huge jip then, considering how much they focused on it in the first season, and then just dropped it with zero resolution.

 

I think it all hinges on what they have planned for the second half when Barry/Patty beak up. I've seen a couple people suggest that as soon as Patty leaves, they'll probably have Barry/Iris suddenly be back as a thing out of nowhere, despite not even mentioning it for months. I wouldn't put it past them to do that, tbh. It'd be bad writing, but what's even stranger is not acknowledging it like this, even if it would be just to put the kibosh on it for good. Maybe they left it hanging for a reason?

Edited November 23, 2015 by Ruby25

[catrice2]

Well, I don't know how to quote another post, but i will say that I hope they do not copy Arrow. I am not interested in seeing one or both of Barry and Iris go through multiple partners before "finding their way" to each other. I cannot get behind Oliver and Felicity because of the way the writers had her sit on the sideline and watch, and in some instances, help, him romance Laurel, Sarah, the cop, the crazy mob girl, the executive at his company and whomever else I am forgetting...all the while wondering why she couldn't be "the one."  That romance will forever be ruined to me, and I agree, the womanizing by Oliver Queen is part of what made him Oliver Queen, which is another reason I hate that he's lost all of his money.

 

It was possible to show growth and maturing in the character without turning him into someone's significant other. Of course when Felicity got a love interest it was made painfully clear he was just a distraction and it was short lived. 

 

I really think if they are going to put those two together they need to start moving in that direction.  The way Barry has been written is totally different than Oliver, and it would not make sense for  him to go through several women, or use one as a distraction, when he wants Iris.  

 

The problem with Iris being unavailable right now is that they did such a poor job of selling the Iris and Eddie (I forgot his name already?) relationship. They just never looked like they were in love or had any chemistry. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I'm sure a lot of fans will hate this, but I honestly think Olicity has messed up Arrow. And perhaps Laurel and the way they wrote her messed up Arrow. But mostly, Oliver messed up Arrow because he was written as worse than all of the women. It still bothers me that he's loved/admired/praised/lusted after by the fandom, but Laurel is brutalized. Her anger at him was justified. He was a jerk - he slept with her sister, she presumably died and then she comes back from the dead and he keeps that from her still? What a terrible person. And then she comes back to the present alive and he gets back together with her? WTF? And Laurel is the one who is hated?

Honestly, I felt like when they brought Sara onboard, they were going to 86 Laurel. Initially. I also think by that point they'd decided that they would switch to Olicity. Bringing Sara onboard effectively killed any chance of Lauriver happening ever again - that's when the retcons started and that's when they started being more obvious with Olicity.

 

I can only 'like' posts once, but if I could, I'd like this post 100 more times.

 

Olicity goes against just about everything that is the Oliver Queen we were introduced to during the first two seasons of Arrow.  I'm not saying he had to end up with Laurel (at least not before the very end of the show's run), but he gives up being a serial polygamist just cause 'OLICITY FTW!!!'??  Yeah, no.  Thanks Tumblr and Twitter crazies for driving MG into shoving that drek down our throats.  Biggest reason I've yet to watch a S4 Arrow episode to date; I can't stomach a relationship - or at least one that seems so strongly rooted - when it takes one or both characters to be so OOC to make it work.

 

Honestly?  I thought the Felicity/Ray pairing had 1000x more chemistry than Olicity will ever hope to have.

 

 

I also agree that if we have to watch both Barry & Iris 'dabble' with other "partners" before finally getting together - or this show has its own 'Olicity' like mess - it will be a damn shame.  But (unfortunately) CW has a type, when it comes to producing shows.

Edited November 23, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Sakura12]

I'm not an Olicty fan, so for me I hate Laurel because she's a terribly written character and the actress hasn't been able to portray any warmth and it's been that way since Season 1 (before Olicity took over). She stands around all the time with her arms crossed and a blank face that makes her look cold and unapproachable. That's on the actress not the writing. Even as a Sara fan, I think bringing Sara in was a mistake and have no idea what they were thinking. Then they went ahead and cast an actress with stunt/martial arts training and gave Sara pretty much everything that makes Black Canary, Black Canary. Including taking in an orphan named Sin. That is on the writers.

 

While Katie Cassidy did get screwed over, I think it was because she just wasn't connecting with the audience the way she was supposed too. Instead of admitting they made a casting mistake they thought bringing in other characters to fill those spots until they could get Laurel liked again. However what they did was push her more and more into being unnecessary to the entire show. She seems to only be there now because comics, not for being useful or needed on the show.  

 

Green Arrow and Black Canary are also not a loving couple in the comics, I like BC comics without Green Arrow in them. She needs to stay away from him in all forms. 

 

I don't think we need to worry about Patty being anything like Felicity. I know some people like her and her and Barry but it's not getting any of the traction Olicity received. Patty is a ship block like Sara was. She's there to stall the ship for few episodes or a season because there must be some unwritten rule in tvland where you can't put a couple together until season 3 and beyond. On top of there being a reason they have to date someone else in those in between times. 

 

Being a long time tv watcher I'm used to these stupid reasons, however I don't understand why they are keeping Barry and Iris apart as friends as well. Barry's treating Iris like she's an acquaintance or co-worker he's friendly with not his best friend since he was a kid. They barely share scenes alone and when they do it's for a few seconds and then Joe comes in and takes over. We get it, Joe loves Barry more. How about we let Iris talk to her best friend a little more show. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by Sakura12

[zannej]

I think my biggest problem with Laurel is the actress they hired for the part. She doesn't look right for the role and she's just not believable. There is something about her face that annoys me-- I think it is the size of her eyes in proportion to her face and the fact that she almost always has the same expression. My brother commented to me that the actress who plays Felicity would have made a better Black Canary if she'd been more athletic. I actually really like Felicity (both the actress and the character) but I wasn't an Olicity shipper. But since there is more sexual chemistry between Oliver and Malcom Merlyn than Oliver and Laurel, I just accept the Oliver/Felicity pairing-- although I preferred Felicity with Ray. I know they won't do it, but since this is the comic books they could get away with having Laurel's mind absorbed by another body and find a better actress for Black Canary. I don't think the current actress is absolutely terrible, since I've seen worse, but I think there is a combination of bad writing and her just not being the right person for the role.

 

With Iris, I think the problem is entirely the writing because Candice has shown more range and comes off as more intelligent than her character. If they hadn't started her off acting like an airhead, I would have liked her more. I actually liked the scene at the bowling alley where Iris and Barry were so close that it bugged Eddie and Linda. I want to see hints of that relationship again. They haven't been showing Iris outright grieving Eddie, but I do know from experience that the death of a loved one can leave you somewhat numb and make you feel like you can't ever feel that level of love again. Statistically, most people tend to move on in about a year. I know quite a few widows/widowers and only one of them moved on that quickly. I knew someone who took 30 years to move on from her husband's death. But Eddie and Iris weren't married and had only known each other for about a year. Iris and Barry were supposedly BFFs for at least 15 years.

 

Even if Iris is numb and trying to move forward, I want them to show us that and I want them to show us that Barry still cares about her. It's like he stopped being interested in her after Eddie died and that doesn't make sense.

[quarks]

. I cannot get behind Oliver and Felicity because of the way the writers had her sit on the sideline and watch, and in some instances, help, him romance Laurel, Sarah, the cop, the crazy mob girl, the executive at his company and whomever else I am forgetting...all the while wondering why she couldn't be "the one."  

 

 

First, let me say that it totally cracks me up that on this site, the Arrow forum has become the pro-Olicity place, and the Flash forum has become the anti-Olicity place. Hee.

 

But - and not to get too far off topic here - I kinda have to disagree with your assessment of Felicity here as sitting on the sidelines and sometimes helping Oliver romance various women.  In the first season, she encouraged Oliver to date McKenna because they needed info from McKenna. Later, when Oliver talked about getting lunch with Laurel, she and Diggle both asked him if this was a good idea, given the complications. Oliver said something about slim pickings for vigilantes. In the second season, she spoke up against Isabel and told Oliver that she thought that was a bad idea; when Barry showed up two episodes later, Felicity immediately started flirting with him and asked him out on a date; that ended thanks to Barry's coma. In the third season, when Oliver pulled away again, Felicity headed off and dated Ray.  Sure, he was just a ship block, and to me, at least, an unconvincing one, but she didn't just sit on the sidelines, either.

 

Back on the topic of Flash, my major problem with Barry and Iris last season was that he was lying to her, about something he didn't need to lie about.  For months. Something he told people he had just met. It's the same problem I have with Patty and Barry this season - it was one thing, sorta, with Barry and Linda last season since they only went a couple of dates, he seemed to be more or less using her as his rebound relationship, she wasn't actively trying to pursue metahumans and had no professional reasons to work with the Flash, and they were over within a month.  If they'd dated much longer than that, I would have wanted Barry to tell Linda, too.  And of course he ended up telling her anyway. With Patty and Barry, yeah, they've only been going out for a few weeks as well, but he knows she's fascinated by metahumans and, as Joe's partner, it's more than possible she's going to figure everything out, so since 25 other people already know, just tell her, Barry, if you want me to cheer this relationship on.

 

With Barry and Iris, I think it makes sense for their friendship to be on a bit of a hold/distance right now - there's Eddie, there's the months of lies, there's Iris finding out about more lies in her life. Having said that, I don't, unlike others here, think that the show has stopped teasing Barry/Iris or stopped giving them big moments - just last episode, Iris was the only character who immediately figured out what Barry needed emotionally and took steps to get that for Barry. They also had that huge, classic, hero saves the girl falling off a building moment earlier this season. I don't think we've seen anything in the show to say that Barry and Iris won't end up together - just that the show has chosen to pull back on Barry/Iris a bit for whatever reason this season. 

 

Mostly, I'd just like Flash to let Candace Patton do more on the show - I'd love to see an Iris/Linda investigative teamup, as others suggested. And I l'd love to see her writing about the various metahumans that Flash takes on. Maybe try to interview them or something. Or provide "An Insider's View of Facing a Gorilla: Joe West Speaks." Something like that.