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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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7kstar

7kstar

God returning or the trickster being alive would be a surprise.

 

Part of me just wants to see what happens and enjoy the ride.  I wonder if Cain will show up. 

 

Could Dean turn into something other than a demon.  Sometimes he really acts more like a monster than demon with him growling and such.

 

One thing that might be a real surprise would Dean paired up with Crowley and not united with Sam and Cas at all. 

 

My only other thought and most likely way off, what if Gadreel wasn't him.  What if instead he was God pretending...what?

 

Of course we've never had the answers of what has really happened to John or Mary.  Since both are missing where are they and could they show up as a last minute surprise.

 

Guess I will just have to see what happens, thinking on this is making my head hurt.  LOL.

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

 

I know a lot of people liked human Cas but I want him to remain an angel. That's what he was created as and I don't agree that you should be able to change your species. Ideally I like Cas to remain on earth as an angel, not be banned from heaven but for him to choose the Winchesters and earth.

 

The only problem with Angel!Cas is that TPTB apparently can't let him stick around since he can make hunting too easy for Sam and Dean. And since I'd like Cas to stay, I suspect the only way these writers can fathom that happening is if Cas is human. I think Cas would do just fine as a human though, if he chose it and knew that his brothers and sisters were home in Heaven and happy. He was doing alright at the Gas n Sip; he just felt that he couldn't bury his head in the sand re: his people's plight. I'd love Team Free Will to reunite and fight evil together. Cas and Sam can nerd out on research in the library, Cas can put his immense knowledge base to good use, and Dean can train Cas on fighting like a human.

 

Anyway, at this point, unless J2M have fallen prey to hyperbole, my money is either on one of the characters changing species (angel, demon, King of Hell, God etc). or a reality/time re-write. Metaton fancies himself the writer of a grand tale...what if that factors in? What if he tears up the script? What if he's killed? Does that affect the story he was telling? Do they go back to the start? An alternate reality? Parallel universe? Will our characters still be themselves, just in a new universe or will the characters themselves be totally changed too?

starrysuki

starrysuki

(edited)

The only problem with Angel!Cas is that TPTB apparently can't let him stick around since he can make hunting too easy for Sam and Dean. And since I'd like Cas to stay, I suspect the only way these writers can fathom that happening is if Cas is human. I think Cas would do just fine as a human though, if he chose it and knew that his brothers and sisters were home in Heaven and happy.

 

Well the writers mishandled the human story. They can use that as an excuse regarding the deus ex machine problems but they still had Cas separated from the brothers anyway. And instead of the handy fix from Cas they had a handy fix from Gadriel, so what was accomplished.

I know what you're staying though regarding Cas powers. I just wish they were skilled enough to work it out.

If they make him human again, keep him separated and on his own, with only a limited amount of episodes, then I will be pissed.

 

Not really excited for the finale after some things I read but I guess I'll have to hold judgement until after it airs. One things for sure. This will be a long, long summer hiatus.

Edited by starrysuki
heyerchick

heyerchick

(edited)

I've just caught up with the latest episode and I must say that I hope Castiel's tone deaf pop culture references continue to feature in S10 :)

 

It seems to me that they're maybe setting up a scenario where Castiel and Sam are the hunters next season, while Dean is partnered with Crowley. I do think though that if the big finale reveal is Demon Dean, it's not remotely as jaw-dropping surprising or awesome as the cast seem to think it is. I really do hope it's something completely different as, at this point, Demon Dean is literally the most obvious way to go. 

 

I do love the depth and intimacy of Dean and Castiel's profound bond so if the show went there, at least that would be new and different.

 

I also think it would be fun for God to suddenly re-surface and be all fuck-this-noise.

 

It would also be really interesting if angels and demons and monsters and hunters, oh my, were 'outed' to the world, with Sam, Dean and Castiel in the middle of it all. Now *that* would be a game-changer.

Edited by heyerchick
SueB

SueB

  • Author

Final shoe fell into place for me after listening to Women of Letter's podcast.  They mentioned a spoiler that Jared got Jensen's shoulder wet from crying.  In fact, I feel like this is so close that I'm keeping this spec under a spoiler tag.

 

So if using a spoiler tag in the spoiler thread is a no-no, I'll delete it: But the WoL podcast led me in a direction both surprising and yet obvious:

parenthesis inidicates (where I got the idea)

- Dean kills Metatron so he feels he's done (me based on promo photo) OR he tries and can't with the blade (alt. theory... me)
- Dean is so broken he tries to commit suicide or begs Sam to do it (WoL) but Sam won't let him (WoL) Thus proving Sam really wouldn't have made a different decision than Dean did in 9x01.
- Saving Dean results in Dean going Demon-adjacent (WoL)
My variant
- Dean begs Sam to kill him as he's an out of control monster and a sobbing Sam, holding Dean and telling him how much he loves him, stabs him with an Angel blade. (Me...+last 5 seconds)
- Dean dies briefly. (Me)
- Dean opens his eyes and they are black (the entire internet + last second + eye opener).
Cake & eat it too variant:
- Dean begs Sam to kill him, Sam refuses, Dean impales himself on an Angel blade to prevent Sam from having to do it and Dean goes demon.

THUS:
- Sam wasn't really lying, under certain circumstances Sam would let Dean die. Just like Dean found his "line" in S4 when he said he would let Sam die rather than become a monster (When the Levee Breaks).
- Dean's a demon, Sam has demonstrated his love, Cas is ... probably watching, and either Metatron is dead (most likely) or he's slipped off and Heaven is still closed.

Of course if this is right ..sorry. If I'm wrong.. laugh at me because I deserve it.

Phebemarie

Phebemarie

I think I have it.  Sam finds Dean near death after a futile attempt to kill Metatron.  He holds his brother and weeps on his shoulder as Dean admits he was wrong and dies.  Sam begs for help, saying he'd do anything to save his brother.  Dean's eyes open, and of course, he is a demon.  Metatron pops into the frame, claps his hands and says, "Oh, goody!" as the season ends.  

 

The season comes full circle; everyone's had pay back for mistakes they've made.  It's the worst possible outcome-a typical Supernatural finale.  

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Wynterwolf

Wynterwolf

The only problem with Angel!Cas is that TPTB apparently can't let him stick around since he can make hunting too easy for Sam and Dean. And since I'd like Cas to stay, I suspect the only way these writers can fathom that happening is if Cas is human.

 

 

I want him to stay too (and I'm ecstatic about the contract renewal), but... a depowered angel is still not human.  And I didn't like the direction they took 'human' Cas, because I don't think they respected that.  I, too, am of the belief that you can't change your species, but Cas dealing with dwindling grace, or having to make choices about how to get powered up, and what the consequences of that might be... that sounds like a totally cool story, so maybe they've brainstormed some better ideas.  **fingers and toes and eyes crossed**

 

I have not been this nervous about a finale (any finale) ever!  EEEP!!  I think Carver has set up so many different plausible scenarios for how the finale could go that's its almost impossible to really settle on one likely possibility.  There are ideas I like better than others, but there's been enough set up for a lot of different things to happen that my brain is just spinning with all the different threads.  Thanks a lot, Carver!!  

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

 

Jared got Jensen's shoulder wet from crying

 

I read that too somewhere.

 

I'd say that means Dean dies (in some way, shape or form) or is near death.

 

Heh, maybe Dean kills Metatron, Dean begs Sammy to kill him so that he doesn't become a monster, Sam can't do it (brotherly bond re-affirmed), Dean kills himself rather than be a monster (in character), and then Cas uses the last of his batteries to resurrect Dean. Cas is exhausted, and we end with Dean giving Cas permission to possess him rather than lose Cas. :)

 

I see no way for Dean to emerge from this season as a regular human being.

catrox14

catrox14

At this point, I am not prepared for Demon!Dean.  I am just so not. I am also not thrilled with the idea of a time reset or do-over or something else.  But then I'm also not in the least bit ready for Dean or Cas or Sam to die a really most sincerely dead death either.  But I also think one of the boys not dying would be cheating. 

 

Fuck this show. I love you, show.

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SueB

SueB

  • Author

 

At this point, I am not prepared for Demon!Dean.  I am just so not. I am also not thrilled with the idea of a time reset or do-over or something else.  But then I'm also not in the least bit ready for Dean or Cas or Sam to die a really most sincerely dead death either.  But I also think one of the boys not dying would be cheating.

 

Fuck this show. I love you, show.

 

You tell 'em.  Hee.  I totally understand. 

FastenSeatBelts

FastenSeatBelts

(edited)

you know what? Dean will probably be fatally wounded only reparable from the inside like Sam was at the beginning of this season. Then Castiel will transfer Dean's soul into his vessel and take over Dean's body (that sounds way dirtier than I intended... I'm not sorry).

So next season Misha will be Dean and Jensen will be Cas.

The CW should hire me as a writer cause my ideas are even worse than the storylines they come up with.

Edited by FastenSeatBelts
NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

 

Fuck this show. I love you, show.

 

If ever there was an SPN motto...

 

That would be amusing to see them play each other though.

 

Wow. I read that as "play with each other" and I was all "oooh, dirty! I like it!" And then I re-read it. And now I'm disappointed. In both of us (but for different reasons). ;)

 

It would be fun though, to watch Jensen and Misha act as Castiel and Dean, respectively. A nice challenge. And, yes, shower time just got a lot more awkward! :)

 

Off to lurk at tumblr to find out how bad this will be...

 

ETA: so, apparently no real surpises. Demon!Dean.

 

However, if S10 is the end, I think Sam will choose to go through the hell trials again since CURING A DEMON is one of the trials. Saving your brother and closing the gates of hell is a pretty good 'killing two birds with one stone' move, eh?

Edited by NoWillToResist
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7kstar

7kstar

 I think there are few things that will most likely happen, maybe only for one ep, but I think Crowley's final speech before open your eyes, was to get Dean to realized I've never lied and I here for you.  I didn't let you down...not that it's true of course but hopefully it will make Dean decide to allow Crowley to live.

 

Of course, how will Dean react...on that I'll wait.

 

Sam will try to figure out a way to get Crowley to undo the mess but how he react's to Dean...I'll wait.

 

Cass could try to steal Metatron's grace or just decide to become human?  Lot's of directions to go, so more information is needed but you certainly could have fun trying to figure out the real direction the show will take.  Or will it just frustrate you more?

bluebonnet

bluebonnet

I'm really looking forward to more information once production starts up again.  I have all these ideas and desires about what's coming up, but they are more wishful thinking than anything.  For example, I really don't want Sam to be in the dark about Dean's newfound demonhood.  I think it would be awesome if Deanmon was just straight up "yeah, I'm still alive because I'm a demon," but the boys have made an Olympic sport out of needlessly hiding things from one another and it always turns out bad.  

SueB

SueB

  • Author

 

but the boys have made an Olympic sport out of needlessly hiding things from one another and it always turns out bad

This one is pretty hard to miss though.  If Dean is anything but a cold corpse, he's going to have to explain being alive.  Sure, he could say "suddenly resurrected by Mark of Cain" but will he have to avoid Devil's Traps? I could see many things NOT working like they didn't against Alastair or YED.  But the Devil's trap bullet worked on Abaddon and Crowley.  So... hiding demon-ness in a completely warded bunker seems improbable.  Like, could he even get back in unescorted once he left?  

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

What happened to Cas' own grace? Didn't Metatron put it in one of those vials like the one Urial had that contained Anna's grace? Did Metatron use all of Cas' grace for the spell?  I can't remember.  Considering Metatron is a pretty unreliable narrator could he still have Cas' grace stashed somewhere for whatever random fucked up Metatron reason?  Other than Cas "doing the right thing" or Metatron continuing being the not-so-big-Bad, I can't see any really compelling reason to keep him alive, unless he has some important information.  And I'm hoping maybe that important information is where the remainder of Cas' grace is, if there is any. 

 

If Cas' grace is still around somewhere, then maybe Sam and Dean will have to look for Cas' grace....you know if Dean hasn't tried to slaughter Sam yet.  Ugh. Fuck this demon!Dean bullshit. I just ...it's .....nope. 

 

I think this development has really messed with my mind to the point that I am now actively considering Baby as the cure for Deanmon.  Hear me out.  Remember when Chuck said that the Impala was the most important object in the universe? Isn't Baby really Dean's love of his life? Would Baby reject Deanmon? Will she no longer start? Will Baby try to run over Deanmon? Will Baby help Deanmon find his humanity again?  Maybe when Deanmon hears the purr of Baby's engine it will be his toy soldier moment?  Thinking of Baby without Dean is worse than Dean without pie.

 

Fuck this show:(...

Edited by catrox14
bluebonnet

bluebonnet

This one is pretty hard to miss though.  If Dean is anything but a cold corpse, he's going to have to explain being alive.  Sure, he could say "suddenly resurrected by Mark of Cain" but will he have to avoid Devil's Traps? I could see many things NOT working like they didn't against Alastair or YED.  But the Devil's trap bullet worked on Abaddon and Crowley.  So... hiding demon-ness in a completely warded bunker seems improbable.  Like, could he even get back in unescorted once he left?  

I agree that he'll have to explain being alive, but I worry that he will try to hide the demon thing.  Something like "maybe the Mark doesn't let me die since it didn't let Cain die."  It would be hard to fake, but I feel it's legitimate worry that the show will turn this into a lie to up the angst.  I'm not sure about the warding.  It seems that it's hidden until someone knows where it is.   Gadreel was able to come into the bunker unescorted even after he had been very deliberately expelled from the bunker.  I was under the impression that Crowley returned to corpse Dean unescorted as Sam was still in the process of summoning him.  I'd have to listen to that dialogue again.  The boys don't often have cause to stand in Devil's Traps.  Dean very deliberately avoided the DT when Sam and Cas locked him in the room.  I could see the writer's figuring out a way for Dean to fib about how the Mark saved him, or even saying that Crowley saved him for whatever reason and Sam eventually figuring it out and trapping Dean in a trap.  

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

 

Fuck this demon!Dean bullshit.

 

I don't really even understand how this has happened. I thought that, in order for the whole 'black eyes' thing to happen, you had to have been possessed, from outside, by the smokey essence of a demon from hell. This clearly did not happen for Dean. So, when he was killed, was his soul ejected but then boomeranged back into his body as a damned/demony soul due to the MoC? If so, how? And did the anti-possession tattoo not work because, even damaged/altered, it still was DEAN'S soul, not a third party's?

 

So, assuming that it's just Dean in there, will he even be aware that he's a demon? Will he feel any different? Maybe he and Sam think God or Cas resurrected him (it's happened before), so they are both in the dark until Dean sets up some demon banishing stuff and he gets zapped away? (Much like the hilarious cartoon I saw of Sam and Dean drawing angel banishing sigils and angel-possessed-Sam poofs out of the frame.)

 

I am curious to see how TPTB choose to play this out. Will Dean be some bloodthirsty, ammoral animal, or will he still be DEAN, just with demon powers and so forth? Kind of like a Crowley Jr.?

 

I hope it'll be the latter but perhaps with the warning that, the longer he stays that way, the more he'll lose himself (thus giving a certain urgency to fixing the situation).

Edited by NoWillToResist
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SueB

SueB

  • Author

I don't really even understand how this has happened. I thought that, in order for the whole 'black eyes' thing to happen, you had to have been possessed, from outside, by the smokey essence of a demon from hell. This clearly did not happen for Dean. So, when he was killed, was his soul ejected but then boomeranged back into his body as a damned/demony soul due to the MoC? If so, how? And did the anti-possession tattoo not work because, even damaged/altered, it still was DEAN'S soul, not a third party's?

As Morrigan2575 said, he's not possessed, he BECAME a demon as is a different breed like Cain. In First Born when Dean asked Crowley, "what do you mean he 'became' a demon", Crowley cleverly changed the subject from HOW he became a demon to how deadly he was (the omission he was referring to in 9.23) .  He's no longer human, he's a different species.  He has retained the same corporeal form with the Mark branded into him.  And that is about all the "facts" we have.  Even if we didn't have the occasional LOLcanon issue, they made Cain's original story so very very vague that they can go in a hundred different directions.  Plus Dean's circumstances are not the exact same as Cain's.

 

Differences:

- Cain made a DEAL. He agreed to go to Hell if Abel could go to Heaven.  Dean agreed to take on the Mark to kill Abaddon.  He blatantly did NOT want to know the consequences but he didn't actually sign away his soul.  I think that's important.

- Cain murdered Abel.   Dean didn't murder an innocent (although I still think the #Thinman kill was close because he could have chosen to capture vs kill, it wasn't with the Blade).

- Cain committed suicide. Dean was murdered.  Now Dean certainly entered into the confrontation w/ Metatron like a man on a suicide mission BUT even beatedn bloody he was still grabbing the blade to try and kill Metatron. 

When it comes to matters of the soul, I really think the show has been consistent that intent matters. Dean was considered the Righteous Man in hell, even though he sold his soul.  God granted Dean Salvation (per Joshua) even after the torture.  So, the 64000 question is the state of Dean's soul IMO?

 

Lilith, Azazel, Allastair, Crowley, Abaddon, etc.. were are standard issue demons of greater power.  I say "standard issue" because they smoked out.  They had to have a meat suit to be corporeal.  Their soul was twisted in Hell to become demons whose form appears as black/red smoke.

 

My speculation: Dean's soul, like Cain's was more "infected" than "twisted".  The Mark, to use the oft-referenced drug analogy, pumped killer poison into their veins. This "poison" was metaphysical.  It has both a physical element and a supernatural element.  The physical side effects were obvious, the supernatural element was ... PERHAPS... a poisoning of the metaphysical soul. 

 

As I stated earlier... they can go in a 100 directions w/ Dean at this point. Maybe he's rabid to start off with and then gets control?  Maybe he's "Dean" unchained right from the start.  Maybe he's a Crowley puppet at the beginning.  IDK.  They'll go for the most drama, the most heart-rending, and most shocking approach they can think of I suspect.   

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

Dean was considered the Righteous Man in hell, even though he sold his soul.  God granted Dean Salvation (per Joshua) even after the torture.  So, the 64000 question is the state of Dean's soul IMO?

 

 

This right here, is why I can't swallow this whole fucking demon!Dean thing.  He already avoided being demonized(literally). He stopped the freaking apocalypse as the Righteous Man that started it.

 

So what has made him "demon-worthy" again? I cannot find the fanwank here at all to make this work and I'm a pretty damn good fanwanker (?). If it's some kind of infection then it doesn't matter at all about intent or worthiness which is worse! If it's an "infection" based on being a killer then because Dean said he was a killer in First Born, and all it took was the forearm grip to pass it on, Sam better watch out because he's just as much of a killer as Dean.  Ugh. I hate this "plot twist".  There is no way to spin this that works for me where Dean's entire arc has not been rendered meaningless :(:(:(

Edited by catrox14
SueB

SueB

  • Author

 

There is no way to spin this that works for me where Dean's entire arc has not been rendered meaningless :(:(:(

Oh I think there are plenty of good ways to spin it ultimately that has Dean rising from the ashes. 

 

On culpability -- well how culpable are souls that are ultimately tortured into a demon?  Since most earned themselves a ticket to Hell, getting turned into a demon is a byproduct so they kinda own it.  But not all demons are mindless evil.  Meg seemed to be capable of true loyalty (to Lucifer but ... work with me). And then she made her cause Team Free Will.  Mostly because they were simultaneously Team Screw Crowley.  But still... some demons seem capable of some agency.  And Cain clearly was seeking forgiveness for his past acts.  

 

So does Dean DESERVE to be turned into a demon?  Well he took on the Mark of Cain, which was given to Cain by Lucifer.  Dude was playing with fire.  Period.  He did it for the right reasons but road to hell is paved with them.  But Dean's heart was still good.  He wasn't trying for power for power's sake.  So...even though he got burned by the fire that he played with (the Mark), doesn't mean he can't be saved from it ultimately. 

 

So, once again, it's Dean's unique strength of character IMO that will ultimately serve him.  He KNOWS right from wrong.  Unerringly most of the time.  What he lacks is faith in his own worthiness.  That's the journey he needs to go on.  To BELIEVE he deserves to be saved.  I would love that if that was the outcome of this story. 

 

ACK!  You caught me speculating.  No promises that the writers are remotely thinking of this.

catrox14

catrox14

 

So, once again, it's Dean's unique strength of character IMO that will ultimately serve him.  He KNOWS right from wrong.  Unerringly most of the time.  What he lacks is faith in his own worthiness.  That's the journey he needs to go on.  To BELIEVE he deserves to be saved.  I would love that if that was the outcome of this story.

 

Therein lies the rub.  Personally, I am not convinced that Carver actually sees Dean as a hero at all. I don't think he has every really understood Dean as much as other writers.

 

Now don't get me wrong. Dean is a complicated character and he has faults and issues till the cows come home  but I've always thought that the words Carver puts in his mouth were overly harsh, overly sexist, more dickish, less sympathetic,a little mean, and generally Dean comes off worse than those episodes written by Kripke, Edlund or Dabb to a lesser extent.  I fear he's trying to "Walter White" our Dean. Ugh. I hope I'm wrong. 

 

But even if Dean rises like the phoenix, which Dean will it be?  I want OUR Dean back. The snarky, not perfect, pie and burger loving, sexual, monster killing, saving people, caring Dean. I don't want a different Dean. Maybe with a little less self-loathing but that as far as I'm willing to go;).

 

Cas told Dean it was fate that made him the Righteous Man and that by stopping the apocalypse he would fix it. Dean becoming a demon anyway, is that supposed to be fate too? Jesus, that's fucking depressing. 

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

 

Cain made a DEAL. He agreed to go to Hell if Abel could go to Heaven.  Dean agreed to take on the Mark to kill Abaddon.  He blatantly did NOT want to know the consequences but he didn't actually sign away his soul.  I think that's important.

 

Demons, while they don't need consent to possess, do seem enamored of their contracts. So, aren't the boys bestest buds with Death? Surely they can cry over the 'legality' of Dean bearing the consequences of the MoC when they were not explained to him? ;)

 

If Dean hadn't been killed, would he still have become a demon? I guess I'm just trying to piece together the explanation (if possible) for it. Was it just a matter of time but his death hastened the transition? Or was it ONLY death that allowed the demon transformation to take place?

 

Hell, maybe Cain takes the MoC back?

 

I read that Mark Sheppard has been promoted to series regular for S10 which now makes me think that Demon!Dean will stick around for a while. The bitter part of me can't help but wonder whether Mark will get more eps and screen time as a regular than Misha did...

Edited by NoWillToResist
catrox14

catrox14

I have mixed "feelings" about Sheppard as a series regular.  Maybe that's just a contract thing so he gets paid whether he appears in an episode or not. But if he is around a lot, I hope it means that Dean can torture him and kill him repeatedly for this atrocity against Dean.  And that's what it was. 

 

Man, I remember during Mother's Little Helper how Dean told Crowley killing Abaddon won't feel nearly as good as it will killing Crowley and the death stare Dean leveled at him was awesome.  And then when it was revealed by the end that Crowley was manipulating Dean, I wanted to cry.  Because I thought godsdammit, Dean.  Figure it out before it's too late :(. 

bluebonnet

bluebonnet

(edited)

 

If Dean hadn't been killed, would he still have become a demon? I guess I'm just trying to piece together the explanation (if possible) for it. Was it just a matter of time but his death hastened the transition? Or was it ONLY death that allowed the demon transformation to take place?

I think it might have just been a matter of time that Dean would change as he was already changing since he received the MoC.  Not sleeping, not really eating, different during hunts, etc.  I think death hastened it, but he was definitely already changing into something before Metatron gut-stabbed him. 

 

catrox14, I disagree that the Carver Dean is less heroic than the Kripke Dean.  I don't think Dean's heroism has waned at all.  Taking on the Mark with the intention of going up against a very powerful demon was an incredibly heroic act.  I think the boys have turned harder over the years, which is to be expected simply due to the nature of their work.  It's like a cop starting out bright-eyed and several years later toughening up and not taking crap.  The boys have gone through some pretty crazy things and it would be implausible if there weren't some sort of reaction to those things to indicate the heavy weight they carry.  

Edited by SystemRemote
catrox14

catrox14

 

Taking on the Mark with the intention of going up against a very powerful demon was an incredibly heroic act.  I think the boys have turned harder over the years, which is to be expected simply due to the nature of their work.  It's like a cop starting out bright-eyed and several years later toughening up and not taking crap.  The boys have gone through some pretty crazy things and it would be implausible if there weren't some sort of reaction to those things to indicate the heavy weight they carry.

 

Dean taking on the Mark was a heroic act, but I'm talking about the characterization of Dean under Carver in a bigger general sense.  It's one thing to carry a heavy burden over the years but I don't think those heavy burdens warrants a demon card.

 

 I'm not sure Carver sees Sam as that heroic either for that matter.  He made it so Sam didn't look for Dean post purgatory which I'm sorry but that just wouldn't have happened given what we know about the boys and that they will always try to save the other one in the end.  If he was trying to somehow make it about the brothers breaking out of their co-dependency well that kind of ended up pointless because Sam tried to save Dean in the end anyway and now he's going to work with Crowley.  Then he has Sam giving that awful speech to Dean about not saving him but then push comes to shove he does want to save Dean.  So what the hell is Carver doing with these guys.

 

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think Carver actually likes Sam and Dean. He's taken great pains to deconstruct Sam as being a halfway decent brother and then literally makes Dean a demon.  I guess I'm just not feeling the underlying love for the characters like I did with Kripke and hell even Gamble, she certainly loved Sam.

7kstar

7kstar

(edited)

Misha will not turn human when his grace dies.http://www.enstarz.com/articles/39892/20140619/supernatural-season-10-spoilers-castiels-grace-is-running-out-what-will-misha-collins-angel-do-before-he-dies-video.htm

 

Unlike when Metatron sniped Cas' (Misha Collins) original grace (see video below), Collins' character will not revert to a human form when his essence dies out. Instead, the angel will find himself six feet under. Unless Team Free Will can find a way to restore Castiel's original grace, that is.

 

While the Supernatural writers find away to (hopefully) save the heavenly solider, Collins recently contemplated what Cas would do if he only had one day left to live.

"He would probably get a cat and cuddle up with it," Collins said at Rome's fifth annual Jus In Bello Con. "I think, knowing Cas, he would probably try to fix as many things as he can with his diminishing power before he dies because he is always trying to do the right thing, you know. And he is willing to sacrifice himself if it comes to that.

 

In the midst of trying to save or improve as many lives as possible, Castiel would also want to make a stop at the Men of Letters bunker before his light fades out completely.

"He would probably want to say goodbye to Dean and Sam," Collins continued. "Probably not Crowley."

 

How much will change between now and the first ep - anyone's guess but since the fans like Misha so much...I doubt they will kill him off unless season 10 is the last season.  NO...nothing to say that it is.

 

How much is the cast having fun with the fans...don't know, didn't they give some red herrings last year too?

 

Of course, Jared talks about Dean and Sam's relationship now being fine just before his death...really one speech and everything is really rosey?

 

I figured this was the place to post this, let me know if I put it in the wrong place.  I didn't put it in spoiler tags since this is where spoilers are talked about.  So if your reading this, I would expect you would know the risks.

Edited by 7kstar
catrox14

catrox14

I don't understand. Wasn't Cas human in the first part of s9  precisely because he lost his grace and fell to earth?  

 

What is that website? It's looks like one of those new aggregators. I dunno. I take that with a big fat grain of salt.

 

Misha is kind of a troll with fans. I wouldn't put any stock in that report at all myself. 

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Plus, most of it was quoted as being from Jus In Bello, which happened about the time the writers got back in the room. Misha had no more idea about what was going to happen to Castiel than the writers at that time, IMO. In fact, I believe in one of his and Jensen's panels he basically states that.  Unless it's released from the show itself, I generally assume its rumor.

7kstar

7kstar

I wouldn't get in a major fuss over any spoiler...cause sometimes they all change in the production room floor and it is a bit early.  The only question for me, would be if they didn't want to repeat Season 9.  That they have hinted at stealing someone's grace isn't the same as when Cass lost his the first time. 

 

So I can see this being possible as they didn't seem to really enjoy writing Cass human that much.  It's still very early so everything can change in a heartbeat and as we know they will drop stories and change them even mid stream.  And yes, Misha does like to string the fans along.  So this could all be treated as a rumor.  But it might make things interesting if Cass has a deadline...or will he just keep stealing other angels grace, How about Metatron's?  Now that might be fun.  :)

SueB

SueB

  • Author

Woot!  Actual data.  I've been studiously avoiding speculation in order to minimize misaligned expectations.  But I'm thrilled at these little tidbits because:

1) Scottish accent!  Raise your hand if you think she's a foil for Crowley?  Maybe/Maybe not but ...SCOTTISH.

2) I like the "Soul Survivor" word-play.  Because it can be both Sam (the sole survivor) and Dean (whose soul has survived but just not in very good shape).

 

And Comic-Con is less than a month away!!!

7kstar

7kstar

Oh gods. No. I don't want to find out that Crowley is actually related to Dean or Sam. That's a bridge too far for me.

But sadly, we already have they are related to Cain and Abel so this show could go there and not see it as a bad thing.  They do seem to love that this is your destiny and since they saved Sam, one brother has to turn bad and now that's Dean.  In a weird twist, it's what's they have done.  Save Sam at all cost and Dean did by giving himself the mark.  So did he actually do what Cain did without realizing that was the requirement all along?  Don't know, it makes my head hurt.

 

I know they haven't planned this, but I do understand how an idea can turn and your really struggling to go against the turn.  But these writers don't seem to really plan it out that far but maybe they have done more than what we can see.

 

They have changed so many details over the years so I guess witches can have power bases but no idea what that will turn out to be.

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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