Spoilers With Speculation

[Omegamom]

If you're into SUPER SPOILERS!!11!!!, there's a thread on Fandomnatural on Reddit with that in the title. It points to a Twitter post. I didn't look (am seriously considering avoiding all Supernatural-related stuff for the next week and a half), but the responses are all "OMGOMGOMGOMFG!!"

Edited May 9, 2015 by Omegamom

[Wynterwolf]

If you're into SUPER SPOILERS!!11!!!, there's a thread on Fandomnatural on Reddit with that in the title. It points to a Twitter post. I didn't look (am seriously considering avoiding all Supernatural-related stuff for the next week and a half), but the responses are all "OMGOMGOMGOMFG!!"

 

If it's what I saw, someone posted that JDM said he would be back in the finale, but that appears to be a misinterpretation of what JDM said.  

[AwesomO4000]

In that case, I don`t see why Jensen would be particularly excited about the Finale. The MOC would be gone without anything really happening with it if you get down to it, Dean would be out of a storyline and right back to being the guilty cheerleader to the seventh million version of "what is wrong with Sam" again. For Dean`s character that would be beyond lame and unexciting. 

 

That is not to say they won`t do the most simplistic version and do just that again but I kinda hope the writing isn`t that assy. Not after the being kicked out of the storyline in Season 5, dropping Purgatory like yesterday`s trash, making him an inconsequential, sidelined nanny during Sam`s trials and cutting Demon Dean short in a lam-o fashion. Could they do it right maybe ONE freaking time in ten years? We`ll see.

 

Well Dean did get to kill Abaddon at least, and likely he'll kill a bunch of Frankensteins this coming week based on the preview and the spoilers - which is at least better than the closing the gates of hell that wasn't. And any amount of the purgatory storyline was tons better than the insulting Amelia-love triangle-soap opera thing (the only way it could've been worse is if she'd been pregnant ::shudder::).

 

But I actually agree with you -I'll be it for a different reason. I don't want this to be yet another iteration of Sam totally screws up and starts another apocalypse again. Some more. I also don't see where Dean would be a "guilty cheerleader" in that kind of scenario. * More likely he'd be the one who has to fix Sam's mess up whatever it is... once again having to "pull Sam's ass out of the fire" because Sam's mistakes always seem to result in horrible consequences.

 

* I didn't really think Dean was a guilty cheerleader in season 8 anyway. He was, if anything a snarky cheerleader at best and a reluctant / annoyed one more likely. And also less of a cheerleader and more of a "well maybe you can do it, but more likely you'll mess it up. Maybe I should do it instead? Oh, you're going to do it? Okay, but you'll probably screw it up. Okay, good luck, and don't forget all the other times you screwed up before. I'm going to help Cas... wait, wait don't do it anyway!" Which isn't really much of a cheerleader - in my book anyway. Dean also wasn't a guilty cheerleader in season 5 in my opinion either... again more snarky or angry than anything else, and also - until the last couple episodes - more of a reluctant "I don't trust you. I think you're gonna screw it up anyway" presence. Even Dean's reason for going to the final showdown - while critical, in my opinion - was less "cheerleader" and more "when my brother screws up, I don't want him to die alone." Obviously miles vary on the "cheerleader" thing.

 

- Jensen said don't be as nice to Jared as you were to him* because of something Sam does in finale.

 

Okay, I hate this spoiler... and SueB you promised me this wouldn't happen and that Sam's character would not be trashed if Jensen liked the finale. I'm climbing up to the cliff.... and I'm gonna blame it on you if I feel the need to jump off. ; )

 

And also poor Jared - there was a post earlier about how he was already bummed that fans are angry about Charlie and angry tweeting him.

 

Why does it seem that these writers hate Sam?

Edited May 10, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Wynterwolf]

Heh, I think (certain members) of the writing team/PTB hate everyone.  Basically I'm rooting for a time travel ep at the beginning of S11 so they can go back and undue, basically, everything and start over.  And take the idea of 'Winchester vs Winchester' and kill it with fire.  New Beginnings all around!  And yes, as a matter of fact I do want a pony for my birthday too.  **sigh** Whyyyy can't I just quit this show????

[SueB]

Okay, I hate this spoiler... and SueB you promised me this wouldn't happen and that Sam's character would not be trashed if Jensen liked the finale. I'm climbing up to the cliff.... and I'm gonna blame it on you if I feel the need to jump off. ; )

I almost didn't report it because I knew it would upset you AwesomeO.  I offer internet Chocolate Chip cookies (ala Willow Rosenberg) if Sam ends up the goat at the end of the year.

 

What I suspect is that it's not going to be remotely black and white but Carver/Singer appear to be in shit-stirring mode (killed off Charlie and Jensen also offered up that another "fan favorite" is going to die in the finale -- could just be Rowena but could be one of the big 4).  So... regardless of EXACT events and story set up, I'm worried they are setting up a cliffhanger that is divisive.  So Sam fans will feel Sam got screwed, Dean fans will feel Dean got screwed.  It's absolutely counter-intuitive for them to do this BUT it does generate "buzz".  They've certainly manufactured conflict before but they seem to be putting it on steroids.  

 

I will say Sam has looked pretty great this entire year until Inside Man/Book of the Damned.  That's when he started the heavy duty lying and off-roading.  They certainly built up his panic well but because they've left the debate open regarding Dean's control, they've undermined sympathy.  And Dean has taken accountability for the Mark but no one is talking about the non-family repercussions if Dean loses his battle for control.  It should have come up last episode. So.. feels manipulative to me.  

 

Other tidbits gather from the intrawebs today:

- I'm fairly certain JDM has extended the offer to come back (he reported he did in a recent article) and he's stated he wants Jensen to direct him. That this would be a fitting "end". But they are officially on hiatus (even the writers), so besides assigning episode numbers to directors (which is done independent of plot, very early, and required in order to book the specific directors they want at what time), I don't think they have a story yet to lock it in.  Bottom line: The "definitely coming back" is probably a statement of intent but it's not the same as a signed appearance for a specific episode.  

- As mentioned above, Jensen "offered" at a lounge session (like a meet and greet I think) that they were killing off another "fan favorite" in the finale and he didn't know how TPTB were going to dig themselves out of that one.

- Jensen mentioned he was devastated Charlie was killed (surprisingly strong word, without video I can't tell if he's speaking personally or about Dean..it seemed to be him though).  I mention this because I think it shows his state of mind regarding the story-telling.

 

There's another day tomorrow and the boys seem to be chomping at the bit.  Mark Sheppard is giving nothing (per usual) and Misha's is being more cautious.

Speculation:

 

The bit about "I don't know how they are going to get out of that one" suggests the following to me: 

1) he's not talking about Rowena, because we all kinda expect her to die and while we like her, I see limited repercussions

2) it's either Sam or Dean and since they HAVE to bring one of those guys back, "how they get out of it" is a valid question -- although with Death in the house, we're pretty close to Deus Ex Machina on call here.

3) It's Cas or Crowley and either Jensen thinks they are definitely coming back so they have the same in-story issue of how to bring the character back OR he thinks one of them is permanently gone and expects audience backlash

Personally, I'd bet on one of the 4 getting killed and Jensen thinks they are coming back for S11

 

Jensen said he was happy with the finale. I still contend that Jensen would not be happy unless Sam had a good story. BUT Jensen's a Sam-boy.  So he may have a more sympathetic perspective on Sam's actions and thus is unconcerned.  He's a pretty savvy dude, however, so I'd say at a minimum, whatever Sam is doing it's pivotal in the finale.  His taunt today about not being nice to Jared due to Sam's actions in the finale is a surprise. But... say Cas died....I could see Jensen not wanting his character to have that stink on him.  Not with all the Destiel politics.  And after the reaction to Charlie's death -- Ruth's "they went there" -- writers talking tears, etc.. IDK...the news of a significant death is not a big surprise.

 

From all the tidbits gathered, it seems like it's Sam vs Dean (in the bunker, with the lead pipe*) and Rowena vs Crowley (in the old brewery, with Cas as Rowena's attack dog). IF that's the scenario, then Sam's blame would be based on him "dragging Cas into this". Which is kinda weak, because Cas is an angel and charter member of TFW.  He gets to be "in this" and would make it so with or without Sam's urging.

 

* sorry, Clue flashback

Edited May 10, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

So apparently Dean will be Latinating at some point in the finale. So the only reason I can see for this is that someone is possessed.

[AwesomO4000]

 And yes, as a matter of fact I do want a pony for my birthday too.

 

Heh... but I would never do that to you anyway. My definition of a horse is: A large animal that can step on you... or kick you... or bite you (take your pick)  ::shudders:: And no, I never wanted a pony as a girl... A friend of mine from high school was killed by being thrown from a horse. And my boss from my after college job got kicked and lost a lot of sight in his eye (ironically his good eye) by a horse. Nope nope.... keep those horses away from me.

 

I almost didn't report it because I knew it would upset you AwesomeO.  I offer internet Chocolate Chip cookies (ala Willow Rosenberg) if Sam ends up the goat at the end of the year.

 

With dark chocolate chips please? (There are such things.) And walnuts?

 

{And I loved Willow with her cookies, especially when she shoved one in Spike's mouth... who of course ate it... He was never snooty about eating like Mr. Broodypants was ("I don't eat" ::incredulous look::)}

 

My worst case scenario in this vein would be if as you say, Rowena uses Castiel as an attack dog, but instead of Crowley, she sends him after Dean (after she gets rid of or thinks she gets rid of the mark so she knows he's vulnerable). And then Sam kills Castiel to save Dean. (Or Dean kills Castiel in defense.) Even though Castiel is a TFW member and chose to help, Dean might blame Sam for bringing Rowena on board in the first place - and because Dean disclosed who Rowena was, but Sam brought her on board after said full disclosure - he has no defense that he didn't know how bad she was. This - or something else horrible Rowena does - might explain why they had the "Dean discloses all about Rowena" scene. So we can have maximum brother angst later when Rowena's involvement goes south on Sam. Because if Sam kills Cas or gets Cas killed, I think the fan response would not be good.

[Wynterwolf]

Heh... but I would never do that to you anyway. My definition of a horse is: A large animal that can step on you...

 

Real ones indeed are a lot of responsibility and work.  But I do find them to be magnificent creatures, so I collect figures and figurines.  

 

I don't think I even have a worst case scenario anymore.  I'm just expecting carnage and chaos, and it will be more about how they decide to resolve the fallout next season.   

[AwesomO4000]

But I do find them to be magnificent creatures, so I collect figures and figurines.   

 

They are magnificent.... but so are sharks and tigers. I pretty much don't want them near me either - heh. No offense to the horses or those who love to ride them - you are much braver than I, I say. (Whereas people who purposely jump in and feed large, wild sharks... well, I am less thinking they are brave, and more thinking they need psychiatric help. Heh.)

 

I don't think I even have a worst case scenario anymore.  I'm just expecting carnage and chaos, and it will be more about how they decide to resolve the fallout next season.   

 

This sounds like an excellent course of action. I may adopt this. Thank you.

Edited May 10, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

Hell killing off a fan favorite could mean Sam or Dean. Probably Dean. Again.

Maybe the thing Sam does is summon Death to kill Dean. Or maybe that's why Dean is Latinating. Summoning Death to kill him.

[Aeryn13]

 

Jensen said he was happy with the finale. I still contend that Jensen would not be happy unless Sam had a good story.

 

Why would he not care about the character HE plays? Jared has certainly been blazingly happy with stories where Dean got screwed over because they were good Sam-stories. And Jensen has in the past expressed happiness for Dean stories - before they got trashed. I would see nothing wrong with Jensen being happy about something interesting for Dean. Not everyone has to be all about Sam.

 

Sorry, but Jensen being happy about the Finale is my only little lifeline that DEAN might not get screwed over story-wise yet again. Sam had 8 and a half years of mytharc, even if he never got a story again, he`d still come out on top in terms of the show overall.

[SueB]

Why would he not care about the character HE plays? 

The two actors are very tight.  Of course he's likely more protective of the Dean character but he's usually very protective of the Sam character as well. And I think he is the largest vocal advocate for John Winchester.  *reading this again* Nope, I'm certain of this based on multiple con reports. The parallels are suddenly obvious though. 

[DittyDotDot]

Why would he not care about the character HE plays? Jared has certainly been blazingly happy with stories where Dean got screwed over because they were good Sam-stories. And Jensen has in the past expressed happiness for Dean stories - before they got trashed. I would see nothing wrong with Jensen being happy about something interesting for Dean. Not everyone has to be all about Sam.

 

Sorry, but Jensen being happy about the Finale is my only little lifeline that DEAN might not get screwed over story-wise yet again. Sam had 8 and a half years of mytharc, even if he never got a story again, he`d still come out on top in terms of the show overall.

 

Perhaps Jensen is happy about the finale because John does come back? I know, I know, I've been saying this most of the season and I'm rarely right about this stuff, but not out of the range of possibilities. Jensen has been saying for years he'd love to see John back. Jensen has never struck me as worrying about who gets "the" storyline, I'm not sure it's a competition for him like it seems to be for most of the fandom.

 

 

Anyway, my theory of the end of the season is Sam and Cass somehow convince Dean to use the Book of the Damned to remove the Mark and it works--probably appealing to his need to make Charlie's death have meaning and will somewhat parallel how Dean talked Sam out of closing the gates of Hell in S8--but then something terrible happens as a result. I was sure Dean would sacrifice himself at the end of the season, but now I'm thinking Dean will offer up both himself and Sam in order to stop whatever is happening--Maybe he tries making a deal with Death? Maybe they see John in those last moments?

Edited May 10, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

 

Anyway, my theory of the end of the season is Sam and Cass somehow convince Dean to use the Book of the Damned to remove the Mark

 

To me that doesn`t track with what Jensen said in an interview, that Dean feels backed into a corner because he knows/realizes Sam will never stop, not screwing with the book or any of those things so Dean feels like he has to implement counter meassures. So I don`t think he will be onboard with using the book.

 

I believe Dean will do something that he might think will stop Sam`s efforts and that will lead to Sam digging his heels in and using the book after all. The Mark will be removed but then bad crap happens as a result.

 

 

The two actors are very tight.

 

They can be tight in their personal lifes and still be foremost invested in their own character. Like I said, Jared is often jubilant about stories where Jensen is quite meh about Dean. Jensen coined the term "guilty cheerleader" for Dean in Season 8.2. Jared has expressed both happiness about soulless Sam and called Angel!Sam a "wet-dream of a storyline". Meanwhile Jensen showed little to no enthusiasm for either of these storylines in terms of Dean`s character, with good reason.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

Hell killing off a fan favorite could mean Sam or Dean. Probably Dean. Again.

Maybe the thing Sam does is summon Death to kill Dean. Or maybe that's why Dean is Latinating. Summoning Death to kill him.

 

I've been thinking that Dean is going to die again as well. I like the idea of Dean summoning Death with Latinating.

[Demented Daisy]

I've always assumed that Dean would die at the end of the season.  Or, maybe not die, but at least sacrifice himself in some way.  And that sacrifice would remove the Mark.

 

But it sounds like they're going in the "Sam and/or Dean do something they think will save the day, but instead put everyone in jeopardy" route again.  

 

How long before the entire supernatural world starts hunting the Winchesters?  They've put the world in danger a couple too many times.

[Wynne88]

Jensen said he was happy with the finale. I still contend that Jensen would not be happy unless Sam had a good story.

 

Of course, a 'good' story isn't necessarily one that's intended to make us feel good.  I think Jensen is interested in finding new angles and nuances, so even when stories seem to be on rinse/repeat, he likes it if there's even a slightly different angle.  Didn't he recently do an interview where he agreed that there were big parallels with last year's story, but since they had flipped positions and he is now the one who needs to be saved, he still felt like it was good television?   That's obviously not a verbatim quote.

[mertensia]

How long before the entire supernatural world starts hunting the Winchesters? They've put the world in danger a couple too many times.

The Apocalypse wasn't their fault-they were like literally the last to know they were the True Vessels. The Leviathan? Yeah they take some blame. Cas and Crowley vying for control is partly on them. So that's twice. Not that many all things considered.

[AwesomO4000]

How long before the entire supernatural world starts hunting the Winchesters?  They've put the world in danger a couple too many times.

 

Heh it's already been done. Sam was hunted by both Gordon and eventually by other hunters. Two even succeeded in killing him in season 5 (and Dean by extension)... which is one of the reasons I hate the idea of the storyline once again making Sam hunt-worthy. Much of the hunting world likely already hates him.

 

 

The Apocalypse wasn't their fault-they were like literally the last to know they were the True Vessels. The Leviathan? Yeah they take some blame. Cas and Crowley vying for control is partly on them. So that's twice. Not that many all things considered.

 

Sam takes some responsibility for starting the apocalypse - which is why he needed to stop it. And as far as the hunting world was concerned, it was his fault - which was why he was hunted. They were also there when the Devil's gate was opened - not their fault, but they got blamed for that too in the eyes of the hunting world.

 

 

 Sam had 8 and a half years of mytharc, even if he never got a story again, he`d still come out on top in terms of the show overall.

 

I disagree with you here. In my opinion, except for the trials, Sam's story arcs have been separate from the main storyline or as a passive player since the end of season 5. I realize miles vary here though.

 

Edited some more because for some reason I was apparently argumentative and wordy and just shut up me already... geesh. Those two sentences were all I really needed to say, no need for explanation. Sorry I didn't get here sooner to take care of that.

Edited May 11, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

Well since everyone and their uncle wanted the Apocalypse Sam can only sorta be blamed. He had no idea that killing Lilith was the last Seal. I mean you get the impression Zachariah was getting ready to just let Alastair drag Dean into Hell (or throw him in there personally) and was ready to show up and hold Lilith while Sam killed her.

[SueB]

What hunters blame them for and what they are REALLY accountable for are two different things.  Like the hunter Tracy said, the demons were all saying 'Sam let Lucifer loose'.  Probably not much more backstory than that -- and the demons likely don't know the whole story anyway.

 

Things they've been blamed for by other hunters:

- Opening the gates of hell at the end of S2

- Letting Lucifer out S4

 

Unknown:

- What hunters know about the origins of Leviathans

- What hunters know about the Apocalypse --- but since they seem to work with the boys now (we've seen them on the phone), I think they know they stopped it.  Bobby would have probably spread the word. 

 

 

But it sounds like they're going in the "Sam and/or Dean do something they think will save the day, but instead put everyone in jeopardy" route again.  

 

My only caveat is I'll be surprised if they are working "together" as it's been about them pursuing the solution differently.  

[DittyDotDot]

My guess is after all the fighting and arguing, they'll eventually come together and be on the same page just before the shit his the fan.

[7kstar]

One thing that bothers me, is Thompson's report that he really tried to keep Charlie alive.  And that even though the fans hated the Amelia storyline but he says that it wasn't the fans that caused the end but it was the direction Carver and Singer wanted to go or TPTB.

 

All is IMO...

So this makes brings up a suspicion that I've always had...Carver has his idea of what he wants to do and if the fans love or hate it..he will stay on course.  We know that fans complaining is fine because they are still watching...so until the ratings drop Carver doesn't have a reason to do anything different.

 

Now with this following teaser - a combination of several reports, I'm worried that what the actors like doesn't mean fans will like.  Actors like a challenge - a new direction.  I'm guessing for Jensen he feels he is getting it.  So I have to admit my excitement has drastically gone down since Charlie's death.  Kevin's death was pointless because it was just to fuel the flames and now we have Charlie just to fuel the flames.  I'm tired of this and to be honest I think I have one foot out the door again.

 

 

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/supernatural-season-10-finale-actor-teases-unexpected-cure-dean-will-sam-die-my-brothers-1500556
 

I posted because wasn't sure about the site, I have a good ad-blocker but I know some don't.

 

Jensen Ackles who plays Dean spoke about the season 10 finale and teased if Sam will save his brother again.

He told People: "Everybody's expecting Sam to save the day, but I would say that, in true Supernatural fashion, we give them what they want in a way that they're not going to expect it."

"Will Dean be saved? Probably. I would imagine. Or, at least, somewhere down the line he'll be saved. But it won't be in the way that people are expecting it to be," he teased.

The actor has also hinted at tense situations ahead, as his character may refuse help from others.

Ackles said, "As the season starts to wind down at the end, you'll see that split in the road where Dean goes down his own path and refuses the help of other people, but you see that they're not willing to allow him to do so."

"They start helping him behind his back and it becomes a very tense situation. When it all comes to a head, it's a pretty scary thing," he added.

Previously the actor also dished that the finale would be an internal battle.

Ackles told Variety, "This is a battle that is internal, and it's not something that they can lock and load their shotguns and go after together. Unfortunately, Sam can't find a cure, and of course, the loyal brother that Sam is will die trying, and Dean knows this.

"It really is this inner struggle where Dean can't seem to get a grasp on the evil power that's inside him, and Sam can't seem to let go of trying to save his brother... But it's a heavy internal struggle that finally comes to a head at the end of the season," he said.

So does this literally mean that Sam would die trying to find a cure for his brother?

As previously reported, leaked photos from the sets of the show have confirm the return of Julian Richings as Death in The Brother' Keeper.

It may well be possible that Sam dies, and Dean makes a bargain with Death, for his brother's life.

Edited May 10, 2015 by 7kstar

[NoWillToResist]

God knows Bobby comes back once a Season and that is after being killed off.

 

Was it ever explained why Bobby's wife wasn't in his Heaven?

 

Hell killing off a fan favorite could mean Sam or Dean. Probably Dean. Again.

 

I have trouble with any non series finale cliffhanger being the death of either Sam or Dean because, IMO, that's not remotely a cliffhanger. No fan is going to be all "holy shit, they killed Sam! Guess Dean's on his own!" That just...not going to happen. Those two will not DIE die unless it's the end of the series. So, the "fan favourite" adjective, IMO, leaves Crowley and Cas. And, with all due love and respect to Crowley, I really don't see how taking him out of the picture would be some big game-changer.

 

I had figured that Cas would use the last of his grace to cure Dean and then be overtaken by Rowena and be killed off somehow. But I have to say that I'd forgotten that he has Metatron's grace. Would be a lovely bit of poetic justice if Metatron's grace is the thing that saves Dean considering that Metatron is the one who killed Dean in the first place. But I think it's more likely that Cas saves Dean (strengthened by Misha's comments) and then has a spell cast upon him by Rowena which leads to his death in some way. The boys then lose their final ally/family/friend. This show is removing all the Winchester's extended family with near-surgical precision. I don't expect Cas to survive this season. :(

[rue721]

The two actors are very tight.  Of course he's likely more protective of the Dean character but he's usually very protective of the Sam character as well. And I think he is the largest vocal advocate for John Winchester.  *reading this again* Nope, I'm certain of this based on multiple con reports. The parallels are suddenly obvious though. 

 

This made me laugh. Thanks, SueB

 

My guess is after all the fighting and arguing, they'll eventually come together and be on the same page just before the shit his the fan.

 

Usually, I'd assume so, because that's what happens on TV, right? But I just watched the episode of Smallville last night when (SV S7 spoilers)

Lex kills his father -- and his father, who at that point believes he's on a journey to redemption, takes it as a kind of redemptive martyrdom to be killed by him.

Not to get all into Luthor family dynamics, lol, but it made me wonder if maybe Dean and Sam will drift so far apart that their ideas of what redemption/being saved means will become diametrically opposed. I don't think they'll become enemies like Lex and Lionel were, but I think that they could get to the point by the end of the season where one of them sees redemption or salvation where the other sees murder/suicide. Especially since Dean isn't really himself, since the Mark seems to be having a huge influence on his behavior/thinking/feelings.

[Demented Daisy]

Now with this following teaser - a combination of several reports, I'm worried that what the actors like doesn't mean fans will like.  Actors like a challenge - a new direction.  I'm guessing for Jensen he feels he is getting it.  So I have to admit my excitement has drastically gone down since Charlie's death.  Kevin's death was pointless because it was just to fuel the flames and now we have Charlie just to fuel the flames.  I'm tired of this and to be honest I think I have one foot out the door again.

 

 

I've been saying that since Dean was made a demon.  Jensen was excited by the story line, but I wasn't, nor will I ever be.

 

Is shock fatigue a thing?  It should be, after watching this show for so long.

[DittyDotDot]

This made me laugh. Thanks, SueB

 

 

Usually, I'd assume so, because that's what happens on TV, right? But I just watched the episode of Smallville last night when (SV S7 spoilers)

Lex kills his father -- and his father, who at that point believes he's on a journey to redemption, takes it as a kind of redemptive martyrdom to be killed by him.

Not to get all into Luthor family dynamics, lol, but it made me wonder if maybe Dean and Sam will drift so far apart that their ideas of what redemption/being saved means will become diametrically opposed. I don't think they'll become enemies like Lex and Lionel were, but I think that they could get to the point by the end of the season where one of them sees redemption or salvation where the other sees murder/suicide. Especially since Dean isn't really himself, since the Mark seems to be having a huge influence on his behavior/thinking/feelings.

 

I meant, I think they will come together like they did at the end of S3. Sam was set on saving Dean he was willing to do almost anything and Dean was fine with being saved as long as it didn't mean something else bad happening in his name. That's where I see them at again this season. I'm just thinking Dean will put in his safeguards and agree to do something Sam wants and both will be on the same page for about a minute and then it's all going to go to Hell in a handbasket. I think the unexpected part will be that they both end up dead somehow, though.

[catrox14]

A lot of viewers predicted demon!deanbut but the shock was in him being killed and resurrected to make that happen. Personally I think the sacrifice is going to be Dean again because I don't see how there is any way for him to lose the mark without it trying to kill him. I kind of hope the only option is for him to become a demon again because I just think the mark is too powerful.

I think Crowley will contact Lucifer. It seems like the old enemy has to be someone we already know.

[Demented Daisy]

Eh, I kind of hope that Rowena's "demon" lover and Crowley's old enemy is... Chuck.  ;-)

[GirlyGeek]

Actually, I think Crowleys sent for Lucifer from the cage. Maybe Rowena's been talking with old Luci..

[DittyDotDot]

I just can't imagine Crowley messing with the cage. Lucifer would never help Crowley given his role in getting him locked back up and then taking over Hell--I hope Crowley isn't that dumb anyway. But he hasn't been all that smart this season, so who knows?

 

I was joking with someone earlier that it would be shocking if Rowena's demon lover turned out to be John Winchester. I don't think they'll got there though. Originally I had assumed it was not-so-marvy Marv, but that's only if the demon lover isn't literally a demon.

 

I agree it's probably someone we've heard of, but I'm not sure it has to be someone we've met. I can't think of anyone that fits that bill right now though.

[companionenvy]

Maybe it is just wishful thinking, but I don't think Cas has had enough of an arc this year for killing him to make narrative sense. In particular, he and Dean haven't been interacting as much or as meaningfully as I think they would have were the show setting up that kind of sacrifice. I could have seen it in season 8 or 9, but not now. 

 

By contrast, looking at the series as a whole, Cas does have enough of his own (still unfinished) character arc that I can't see him being killed off just to up the Winchester angst quotient, especially two weeks after killing off Charlie for the same reason. Even Bobby, while a series regular in all but name, didn't have his own hero's journey; he was pretty clearly serving the mentor/support role, and that kind of character nearly always gets killed off if the story goes on long enough. But two more episodes isn't going to be enough to resolve the question of whether Cas is going to wind up an angel or a human; whether his role is going to ultimately be reforming heaven or fighting and dying on Earth. Personally, I suspect that Cas will end the series reluctantly returning to heaven in a way that removes him permanently from Sam and Dean's lives - the sacrifice won't be of his grace, it will be of the human life he's come to so appreciate. 

 

I've become more convinced of that since Inside Man. There's no way our last glimpse of Bobby Singer is going to be him getting hauled off to heavenly jail. SPN's heaven, even when it isn't in the midst of full-on chaos, is a deeply screwed up place, and that episode sets us up for a HUMAN rebellion-in-heaven arc. I wonder if one of the reasons TPTB killed off Charlie is that they know we're going to be spending significant time in heaven next season - which would also gel with rumors of JDM's possible return. 

 

As for the bad thing that happens at the end of this season -- I'm thinking either one brother being forced to kill the other, the return of Lucifer/Samifer, or Dean becoming King of Hell after Crowley's death. Those, more than Cas's death, seem to me to gel with the hints the cast is throwing out.

[SueB]

http://walkintothestream.tumblr.com/post/118636072817/jensen-what-they-need-to-be-most-worried-about

From tumblr. I'm guessing Rowena's gonna ramp up the evil.

[mertensia]

Well since I imagine Rowena couldn't pet a kitten without doing something evil I'm not surprised that she's going to go even more evil.

Old demon lover: Alastair? Cain?

[Demented Daisy]

I'm not convinced that Rowena's paramour is actually a demon.  One, if so, shouldn't Crowley have been able to instantly summon any demon?  Two, when he called for his minion, he wrote down a name, then told the demon to find "this person".

 

Grandpa Styne, maybe?

[mertensia]

John Winchester? We know he's strayed.

[Demented Daisy]

While it would amuse me if it were John, wouldn't that mean he's on earth, not in Heaven or Hell?  Not sure how I feel about that....

[mertensia]

If Crowley had a back way into Heaven I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

It would be hilarious if it was Sam or Dean though.

I know!! Garth!

[The Mighty Peanut]

I've figured it out but when I first saw the term "Latinating" I imagined Dean dressed as a Latina woman and dancing around. Which would be fine with me, btw.

[catrox14]

John Winchester? We know he's strayed.

Wait, when did John stray? Isn't he in Heaven now?I thought after he crawled out of Hell to help kill Azazel he went to Heaven.

Edited May 11, 2015 by catrox14

[GirlyGeek]

Wait, when did John stray? Isn't he in Heaven now?I thought after he crawled out of Hell to help kill Azazel he went to Heaven.

AFAIK John's never 'strayed', so not sure about that.  But, I don't think the show's ever been particularly clear on where John went to after helping kill YED.  He went away in a bright light, but seasons later, Ash did say he hadn't been able to find John or Mary in Heaven.  I would assume bright light= good, though.

[GirlyGeek]

Also, I'm not sure Crowley sent the minion off to find a Demon Lover.  He wants something to hold over Rowena... a bargaining chip (though I'm not sure why he's looking for this to be honest) then he hears about the Demon Lover, then there's another thing we don't hear about but is just referenced: 

 

*transcript*

C: There must be something that I don't know about her, something I could hold over her as a bargaining chip.

[ Squeaking ]

C: A demon lover?

[ Squeaking ]

C: [ Stammers ] You don't need to paint a picture. Is there anything else?

[ Squeaking ]

C: Really? You sure?

[ Squeaking ]

C: I need a Minion!

Minion: We are scouring the planet, sire, a-around the clock. We will not rest until your mother is found.

C: I should say you aren't. And I have another mission for you.

M: Yes, sir.

C: Locate this person -- immediately. I don't care what it takes.

**

 

So yes, the old witch (rat/hamster, whatever she is now) could have been giving more info about the Demon Lover, but to me it sounded like she gave him some different intel.

[SueB]

Interesting.

[Demented Daisy]

Hmm.  So it has to be someone adept at hiding....  Someone Crowley couldn't easily find.

 

So it could be Chuck.  Or Cain.  Or one of the Stynes.

 

Hell, it could be anyone.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm still betting it's Marvatron...he's the only one left out there they haven't wrapped up this season, right? However, I'm hoping it's John...just because.

 

 

Wait, when did John stray? Isn't he in Heaven now?I thought after he crawled out of Hell to help kill Azazel he went to Heaven.

 

As far as I know, John didn't stray. I think mertensia was referring to the existence of Adam meaning he strayed from Mary. But Adam's mom was well after Mary was dead, so I wouldn't call it straying myself.

[catrox14]

AFAIK John's never 'strayed', so not sure about that.  But, I don't think the show's ever been particularly clear on where John went to after helping kill YED.  He went away in a bright light, but seasons later, Ash did say he hadn't been able to find John or Mary in Heaven.  I would assume bright light= good, though.

Yeah I remembered that Ash said he couldn't find John or Mary but I thought that was just them being well hidden from Ash for plot reasons. I tend to think they are both in Heaven.

Crowley's ol enemy suspects:

Bobby- since Crowley had a way to reroute Bobby he might be going to find him. Or maybe Bobby got kicked out of heaven after his shenanigans and is roaming in the veil again.

Gavin: They hated each other. Crowley could decide to reset the time line to right after Dean killed Abaddon and before he let Gavin live.

 

Cas, Number 1 suspect: Cas still owes Crowley for the grace upload.

 

Dean: Bargain to kill Rowena

Crack spec of the day. Crowley has to have a bigger role here than Rowena. Crowley always knows more than he ever let's on or at least enough to play every thing to his advantage. And I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know about the Book of the Damned either. Crowley's first appearance was him watching  movies of Hitler and drinking Scotch. I think he knows all about the Stynes. I'll bet he made many a deal with the Stynes on behalf of Lucifer so they would do the dirty work on Earth.

 

John : if John is not in Heaven, Crowley could get John to save Dean because Dean is too much too handle now for anyone, but maybe he would listen to John. Crowley tells John that the prophecy is that Dean will kill Sam so John takes on the Mark from Dean because there is a loophole that the father can save one brother from killing the other. But it all goes sideways  and Dean kills John because John is trying to save Sam from Dean. 

Edited May 11, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

FAIR WARNING.  I literally gasped and put my hand over my mouth. Extended promo from The Prisoner.  Um.  Guys... it's really super spoilery. Like fucking shockingly spoilery and if its not a random series of things like the promo monkeys usually do..... then

 

I'm not okay. I'm not okay like at fucking all. meep. all the meep. :(

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhN9DbL4nPA&feature=youtu.be

Edited May 11, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

Yeah, I was going to post a pic...but JUST in case it's more than some want to know**... IDK...let's just say if you stop at the 30 sec point, there's a big MoL spoiler.

 

Also, AwesomeO....in addition to the asshole comment to Sam that he doesn't get to say I'm sorry...the look on Dean's face?  I gotta say, it sure seems like Sam was justified that Dean was ready to snap.   Like I said...data for Team Sam to say he was justified.  Charlie's body? Data for Team Dean to blame Sam for him snapping. 

 

Divisive.  Since I love them both, I'm just sad and (you win you asshole Carver) anxious for the next episode. 

 

** FAIR WARNING.  I'll post it at about 9pm West Coast tonight, hyperanalyze the trailer (lots of goodies) and start speculating. So... if you don't want THAT much spoiling...avoid my posts...

Edited May 11, 2015 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

::Le Sigh:: More blaming each other and saying stuff they can't take back. Business as usual with Carver's stint. *

 

* I know it's happened in the past with other showrunners, but never, in my opinion, as badly or as often as it does under Mr. Carver.

 

Also, AwesomeO....in addition to the asshole comment to Sam that he doesn't get to say I'm sorry...the look on Dean's face?  I gotta say, it sure seems like Sam was justified that Dean was ready to snap.   Like I said...data for Team Sam to say he was justified.  Charlie's body? Data for Team Dean to blame Sam for him snapping. 

 

Divisive.  Since I love them both, I'm just sad and (you win you asshole Carver) anxious for the next episode.

 

I agree, SueB, we've got evidence on both sides for maximum division... though, I couldn't help but notice they also added Sam's "This is all your fault" (Nyah!) as well, so that's not going to sit well at all with Team Dean I don't think, depending on the context of that comment. Mr. Carver's working really hard to make sure there's division, in my opinion **... asshole indeed... or, dare I say it, assbutt.

 

** Which I think I predicted? I'm just so weary of it all that I've forgotten.

[GirlyGeek]

Ahhhhh..... do I click on the link??!!  I have no willpower!!!