Spoilers With Speculation

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Trigger Warning for any anti-Mary's:

EW interview of Sam Smith

 

I would get angry over some of her answers if I thought we were even watching the same show.

Quote

If she’s in General Mary mode at the moment, how will having her boys in that world affect her?
She doesn’t want her boys in this world — not because she doesn’t want to see them, but because it’s not safe. I think she has reconciled the fact that she will probably never see them again and Jack is now filling that place in her life. It’s fair to say that the boys, their priority is to get us and leave, and it’s possible that having grown so attached to people and felt so responsible for Bobby and all the remaining humans that she’s going to have to make a choice: Does she want to just escape, given the opportunity, or does she feel a responsibility to finish what she started in the Apocalypse World? There is a possibility that there will be a conflict there for her.

How come one of her 'choices' isn't going back and being with her sons? Making up for 30+ years without them? They aren't even part of the equation??? Just a general 'escape'. And people wonder why some others despise this character? I sincerely hope she makes the choice to stay with her new responsibilities and we never have to see her again.

[BoxManLocke]

and

it’s possible that having grown so attached to people and felt so responsible for Bobby and all the remaining humans that she’s going to have to make a choice

 

Just when did that happen I wonder ? I must've blinked and missed it.

 

It's obvious Sam Smith drank the Dabb kool-aid, but I think it would be unfair to expect her to have an interesting take on her character when she's barely even on the show.

[catrox14]

My gods. She is really being sold a bill of goods. I mean it's the same ole show not tell and it's awful story telling. It really makes me wonder if they are setting up the AW as the spin-off. Why is she even attached to Bobby. IMO ourbworldbBibyy would have had a few words with her.

[SueB]

I wonder if AU Bobby dies, making Mary feel like she has to stay because they lack seasoned warriors at the top?

[ILoveReading]

General Mary feels responsible for Bobby?

Since when?  Mary's been there barely a year and was locked up in Michael's headquaters for most of it, and Bobby probably has been fighting the war most of his life, but sure, Mary's suddenly the general in charge.

To bad she never felt responsible for her sons or has any desire to connect and get to know them.

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I can't find a picture to compare, but it reminds me of the wendigo mask Ben made (and Dean had in Baby's trunk...) 

When the Winchesters crossed over in 12:23 they saw Temptor demons. I thought it looked like that.

7 hours ago, SueB said:

Trigger Warning for any anti-Mary's:

EW interview of Sam Smith

No.  The Bad Place Monsters were more rotted looking. 

Actually the Bad Place monsters were more Rubber looking.

[Casseiopeia]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

When the Winchesters crossed over in 12:23 they saw Temptor demons. I thought it looked like that.

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Okay I love Cas in that scene.  That thing is that  Cas ...isn't afraid of Lucifer. He had a fight with him and got right up in his face. He knows Lucifer wasn't at full power...so I'm going to assume that Cas is saying that so Sam doesn't feel alone and like he's the only one afraid of Lucifer. I don't think Dean is afraid of Lucifer either TBH.  I think he's afraid of Sam being harmed by Lucifer. 

And also, Sam's terror of Lucifer is completely opposite of him facing him down in the cage in s11. There is zero logical through line from Sam saying no to Lucifer again and lecturing him to....dun dun dun "Lucifer True Face" has been terrorizing Sam since....5 episodes ago?  Sigh. 

I do think it's ridiculous that none of them are even mentioning Michael at all.  I mean he's right there. In the cage. Fully graced up. No reason at all to not try at this point. I'm hoping Dean will be all....well, you know what about Michael's grace. Honestly, if the show never goes there that just makes them all look incredibly stupid especially with the Cage being specifically mentioned. 

Dean is absolutely NOT afraid of Lucifer. We saw that in seadon 11 in the holding cell and Lucifer saw it too.  He did not even try to manipulate Dean either. He looked into his,eyes and saw he had absolutely no play to make but fight.  It is rare for Lucifer to be rendered speechless.

The show is obviously going there ... It is going to be an impulsive Dean thing... It has been set-up to be one of his impulsive self sacrifice moves to save family/save world/get win by defeating big bad. He does those without discussion. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

When the Winchesters crossed over in 12:23 they saw Temptor demons. I thought it looked like that.

This is the picture of tempter demons per SPN Wiki.  Supposedly they have black eyes, pointed teeth and horns.

Ah--I found a picture of the wendigo mask: 

ETA: I see @Casseiopeia beat me to the punch with the demon picture!

Edited May 3, 2018 by ahrtee

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

This is the picture of tempter demons per SPN Wiki.  Supposedly they have black eyes, pointed teeth and horns.

Ah--I found a picture of the wendigo mask: 

Well... it is some something from the AU Apocalypse because things just look different over there.  Angels have a different fashion sense and monsters are freaks 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m gonna brace myself for an obnoxious episode. 

I checked the promo again and with the sneak peak and the picture the progression of the story seems to be:

- for whatever reason they decide they need the grace from Lucifer and not the archangel they have on hand

- Gabe and Rowena set a trap for him

- that has to work to some degree because everyone hop-skips through another rift, including Gabriel  (note how Sam gives the orders when they are there, no surprise from Berens)

- they are attacked by some kind of vampire-like creature and follow that into a cave/bunker-like structure

- Lucifer has likely been brought back to the bunker where he has a confrontation with Rowena right in front of the rift, gee, I wonder what happens

- spoiler alert: Lucifer goes through the rift since he meets up with Jack here

 

Now the last part makes me iffy on Lucifer meeting the gang again in AU-world. Or even if he does, it would be just for a hot minute. There is not enough time in the episode for a big thing with Lucifer and them.

Meaning that "harrowing thing" will have to do with Sam and those creatures most likely. Is Sam gonna get "turned"? And cured 5 minutes later? Is Dean gonna scream "Sammy" five times in a row? 

They are all doing their thing again in episode 22 so this would be a rather self-contained story.  

Frankly Gabriel probably does not have grace to spare at this point... and they like him.

What they should have done is remove all of his grace, every last drop.  Then killed him for crimes against humanity.  

Edited May 3, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

5 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean is absolutely NOT afraid of Lucifer. We saw that in seadon 11 in the holding cell and Lucifer saw it too.  He did not even try to manipulate Dean either. He looked into his,eyes and saw he had absolutely no play to make but fight.  It is,rare for Lucifer to be rendered speechless.

Lucifer wasn't that terrified.  He was easily beating the s**t out of all three of them with just his fists.  Didn't he have Dean in a choke hold telling Sam he would kill his brother if Sam didn't say yes?  Dean wasn't trying to do anything but rescue Sam and hold off Lucifer long enough for Rowena to say her spell.  Unfortunately Castiel gummed that all up.

[Castiels Cat]

9 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Lucifer wasn't that terrified.  He was easily beating the s**t out of all three of them with just his fists.  Didn't he have Dean in a choke hold telling Sam he would kill his brother if Sam didn't say yes?  Dean wasn't trying to do anything but rescue Sam and hold off Lucifer long enough for Rowena to say her spell.  Unfortunately Castiel gummed that all up.

I never said that Lucifer was terrified. I said Lucifer understood that Dean was not afraid and could not be manipulated and did not try.  He also understood rhat Dean was too smart to be manipulated too. Lucifer read that Dean was not an easy Mark.

The episode was a pivotal turning point in Sam's redemption arc because he chose to believe in Dean and TFW.  Unfortunately up until rhat point he still was operating under his hubric need to be the one to do it alone when he raced off to help to confront Lucifer because of his hubric belief that God had chosen him to defeat Amara.

Car had just recovered from Rowena's,spell and had been utterly demoralized by Amara.   He hoped an archangel would be able to defeat her.  Lucifer is the Prince of Lies.

He spent his time trying to manipulate Sam and then Cas 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

I wonder if AU Bobby dies, making Mary feel like she has to stay because they lack seasoned warriors at the top?

But she isn't even a seasoned warrior FFS. She's had ONE year of BMOL shenanigans after being resurrected. What does she know about being a warrior. 

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

General Mary feels responsible for Bobby?

Since when?  Mary's been there barely a year and was locked up in Michael's headquaters for most of it, and Bobby probably has been fighting the war most of his life, but sure, Mary's suddenly the general in charge.

To bad she never felt responsible for her sons or has any desire to connect and get to know them.

Mary is the worst. I can't believe I dislike her more than John.

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Mary is the worst. I can't believe I dislike her more than John.

I dislike her more than Lucifer...well ok, maybe I dislike them the same. ;-)

I want her to go back to being dead.

I really do.

[Pondlass1]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But she isn't even a seasoned warrior FFS. She's had ONE year of BMOL shenanigans after being resurrected. What does she know about being a warrior. 

Dabb will have her wearing a Cape and Tights next season.  Wait and see!

[Casseiopeia]

11 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I never said that Lucifer was terrified. I said Lucifer understood that Dean was not afraid and could not be manipulated and did not try.  He also understood rhat Dean was too smart to be manipulated too. Lucifer read that Dean was not an easy Mark.

The episode was a pivotal turning point in Sam's redemption arc because he chose to believe in Dean and TFW.  Unfortunately up until rhat point he still was operating under his hubric need to be the one to do it alone when he raced off to help to confront Lucifer because of his hubric belief that God had chosen him to defeat Amara.

Car had just recovered from Rowena's,spell and had been utterly demoralized by Amara.   He hoped an archangel would be able to defeat her.  Lucifer is the Prince of Lies.

He spent his time trying to manipulate Sam and then Cas 

 

Lucifer already lost the manipulation battle with Sam before Dean and Cas showed up.  Sam didn't fall for his lies.   Dean and Cas had no chance against Lucifer.    Threatening to kill Dean was the only card Lucifer had left to play (at least until they broke canon and made it possible for angels to possess angels).  That was why Lucifer toyed with them.  Sam didn't say yes then either.  

When Sam went to talk to Lucifer it was to get information.  He and Dean wanted to know how Lucifer and the archangels helped God defeat Amara.  They had no intention to let Lucifer out.  Dean didn't answer the phone and the Duo wrote that time was running out, it was now or never so Sam went ahead with the plan.  I don't see how it was hubris.  Dean had already told Sam that he couldn't kill Amara.  He apologized for laying the burden on Sam.  So Sam stepped up and did the one thing that terrified him more than anything because he thought that was what God and Dean wanted him to do.  I never interpreted as anything but Sam and Dean trying whatever they could to save the world.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[Icarus]

Bobo Berens‏ @robertberens 1h1 hour ago

Bobo Berens Retweeted Mary Manchin

Tonight!! Brand new #Supernatural. And you better believe director @philsgriccia, the entire cast and crew, and the post-production team absolutely slayed this one. Saw a complete cut on Monday and I’m STILL shaking. Watch it!

Andrew Dabb‏ @andrewdabb

Tonight on #Supernatural And I feel like I'm gonna die I don't feel so good inside Why baby-why, why, why? But I had a good time You know I had a good night...

 

Not liking any of this!!! There seems to be a lot of expectation from cast, crew etc

[SueB]

Anyone recognize the song?  

Well, I'm jazzed for this episode.  We're down to 3 to go.  I feel like we will start to see some shape of things to come.  

I do wonder if the lack of AU Michael is because the actor got a pilot picked up and simply wasn't around for shooting as much.  

[gonzosgirrl]

55 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dabb will have her wearing a Cape and Tights next season.  Wait and see!

I'm hoping that's what they bury her in.

[gonzosgirrl]

38 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Lucifer already lost the manipulation battle with Sam before Dean and Cas showed up.  Sam didn't fall for his lies.   Dean and Cas had no chance against Lucifer.    Threatening to kill Dean was the only card Lucifer had left to play (at least until they broke canon and made it possible for angels to possess angels).  That was why Lucifer toyed with them.  Sam didn't say yes then either.  

When Sam went to talk to Lucifer it was to get information.  He and Dean wanted to know how Lucifer and the archangels helped God defeat Amara.  They had no intention to let Lucifer out.  Dean didn't answer the phone and the Duo wrote that time was running out, it was now or never so Sam went ahead with the plan.  I don't see how it was hubris.  Dean had already told Sam that he couldn't kill Amara.  He apologized for laying the burden on Sam.  So Sam stepped up and did the one thing that terrified him more than anything because he thought that was what God and Dean wanted him to do.  I never interpreted as anything but Sam and Dean trying whatever they could to save the world.

 

Edited - taken to All Episodes

Edited May 3, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Jonesy]

31 minutes ago, Icarus said:

Bobo Berens‏ @robertberens 1h1 hour ago

Bobo Berens Retweeted Mary Manchin

Tonight!! Brand new #Supernatural. And you better believe director @philsgriccia, the entire cast and crew, and the post-production team absolutely slayed this one. Saw a complete cut on Monday and I’m STILL shaking. Watch it!

Andrew Dabb‏ @andrewdabb

Tonight on #Supernatural And I feel like I'm gonna die I don't feel so good inside Why baby-why, why, why? But I had a good time You know I had a good night...

 

Not liking any of this!!! There seems to be a lot of expectation from cast, crew etc

This makes me even more interested in tonight's episode!

[Myrelle]

I wonder if Dean will make a deal with Death to save Sam and the deal will be for him to be her agent-of-a type when she needs him and she calls on him in the finale to fulfill the deal by taking on CagedMichael in order to fight AWMichael.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Myrelle

[Jonesy]

Interesting tidbit just out from EW:

 

Rowena develops an unexpected connection to Gabriel that surprises everyone(in this episode).

Edited May 3, 2018 by Jakes

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Rowena develops an unexpected connection to Gabriel that surprises everyone.

Poor Sam.  Rowena and Gabriel moved on quick.

From the EW interview.  I noticed some typos so I fixed them

If she’s in General Mary mode at the moment, how will having her boys in that world affect her?
She doesn’t want her boys in this world — not because she doesn’t want to see them, but because it’s not safe. I think she has reconciled the fact that she (hopes) she will probably never see them again and now that Jack is now filling that place in her life.

Edited May 3, 2018 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

39 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Poor Sam.  Rowena and Gabriel moved on quick.

From the EW interview.  I noticed some typos so I fixed them

If she’s in General Mary mode at the moment, how will having her boys in that world affect her?
She doesn’t want her boys in this world — not because she doesn’t want to see them, but because it’s not safe. I think she has reconciled the fact that she (hopes) she will probably never see them again and now that Jack is now filling that place in her life.

I think your "typo" changes are a bit unfair to Sam Smith and the character of Mary.  From Mary's POV, the boys TRIED to save her but the net result is they got her Jack (which is a HUGE help) but she's 'settled in".  What Sam is saying here is that she's not anticipating a rescue.  She's not holding out hope.  Which is kinda interesting.  On the one hand she knows the boys love her and would want to try, OTOH, Jack seemed to be the "battery" for their last attempt and Jack is with her.  So, I can see her thinking that the boys are unable to get to her.  So, she's setting down "roots".  This is similar to Dean adjusting to life in Purgatory (until Benny told him there was hope) or enjoying his delicious (bleech) lizard in The Bad Place.  As someone who had a massive reality change when she went from "Heaven" to "alive again", perhaps Mary has come to embrace the "bloom where you're planted" approach.  

And I don't blame her for wanting Sam and Dean to stay safe.  Normal, maternal instinct.  If they show up, they are likely to be at risk. And it's not their style to let others suffer. 

However, Dean said the plan was "get in and get out". That made sense when they were rescuing Mary and Jack from Angel HQ.  Now that it's been months, Mary and Jack have joined the resistance and rightly developed some loyalty to their "brothers in arms".  Look how attached Dean got to Benny.  Combat can make for intense relatinships/loyalties.  

So, Mary is not a shithead IMO for being conflicted about staying with those who took Jack and her in.  

 

As for Mary being "General Mary", well, I'm not sure that this is Sam's Smith's term but potentially more like how her character has been described.  We don't actually know the timeline of events for when the AU Apocalypse happened.  If the Winchesters brothers were never born, then theoretically some other "special kid" survived Azazel's Cold Oak Hunger games.  And someone else kickstarted the Apocalypse as the Righteous Man.  In theory they could be about 8 years into the Apocalypse.  So, who would be the leaders in this world?  Theoretically the ACTUAL Department of Defense in AU world.  But they are no where.  It looks like the War took out any organized military force the humans had straight away.  Which left guerilla fighters.  And "Hunters" would probably be the best people prepared to deal with Angels and Demons compared to your local survivalists.  So, Bobby being in charge of the "Resistance" works for me.  Mary, who was a seasoned Hunter, pops up 'fresh' after 8 years of war -- also makes sense that she would be of some value.  Now add Bobby's obvious "fondness" for her, and Jack's devotion to her and Mary becomes part of the "inner circle" leading the resistance.  

In short, the term "General" is misleading.  There is not organized military force. There is a resistance group with leaders.  Her AU counter part was buds with him.  And she's 'sheparding' a powerful Nephilim -- a being commited to her safety and who generally listens to her.  Her being part of the leadership makes sense to me.  It's less meritocracy than unique assets.  

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think your "typo" changes are a bit unfair to Sam Smith and the character of Mary.

I don't.  This is the way Mary came across to me.   She can bond with everyone and anyone who isn't her sons. 

With regards to her sons she didn't even try.

But yet with no effort, Jack, Bobby and Cas and all kinds of random strangers matter more to her.

[gonzosgirrl]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't.  This is the way Mary came across to me.   She can bond with everyone and anyone who isn't her sons. 

With regards to her sons she didn't even try.

But yet with no effort, Jack, Bobby and Cas and all kinds of random strangers matter more to her.

I agree, 100%. They haven't shown Mary make ANY effort to bond with Dean and Sam in the year, the YEAR she was resurrected, until she nearly killed them both and Dean managed to pull her out of robot!Mary land. Yet she can bond enough with another kid and a bunch of strangers in the course of a few months that she's willing - anxious even - to stay behind with them even after her sons come to rescue her? Please. I think your typos are too kind.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Poor Sam.  Rowena and Gabriel moved on quick.

 

Maybe Sam is their connection. *wink wink* *nudge nudge*

[Aeryn13]

So the "inside the episode" thing at least gave an explanation for why they are going after Lucifer`s grace:  Gabriel`s just doesn`t work. For reasons. I mean, the one that was extracted from his totally weak-ass self worked fine but now that he has been at least a bit re-powered, his grace is shot to hell. Sure.     

Edited May 3, 2018 by Aeryn13

[BoxManLocke]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So the "inside the episode" thing at least gave an explanation for why they are going after Lucifer`s grace:  Gabriel`s just doesn`t work. For reasons. I mean, the one that was extracted from his totally weak-ass self worked fine but now that he has been at least a bit re-powered, his grace is shot to hell. Sure.     

 

Lmao they couldn't even find a way to bring Lucifer back that made sense

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

Lmao they couldn't even find a way to bring Lucifer back that made sense

He's jumping at his own shadow.  It's not even remotely believable he's scary in this current state.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree, 100%. They haven't shown Mary make ANY effort to bond with Dean and Sam in the year, the YEAR she was resurrected, until she nearly killed them both and Dean managed to pull her out of robot!Mary land. Yet she can bond enough with another kid and a bunch of strangers in the course of a few months that she's willing - anxious even - to stay behind with them even after her sons come to rescue her? Please. I think your typos are too kind.

Maybe Sam is their connection. *wink wink* *nudge nudge*

Sabrielwena?

[SueB]

Producer's preview:

[SueB]

Natialie Fischer has a positive preview of tonight's episode and an interview with Sam Smith.  Hypable Preview and Sam Smith Interview

They must have sent out screeners for this episode.

Gleaning from this:
- I don't think Mary dies, not with the way she indicates she'd like to seee John in the future
- I wonder if we are done done with the AU.  IF Mary stays behind or if we even know that at the end of the episode.
- Large cast, lots of twists and turns.
- So Sam Smith interacts with someone onscreen that she hasn't before -- that keeps both Matt Cohen and Julian Riching in the mix but not JDM.
 

Quote

Fates are changed, growth is had, dynamics are explored, and from every angle, every possible facet, this episode is technicolor proof of what many fans have long believed – that despite its irreversibly Winchesterial DNA, Supernatural does work as an ensemble show.

Natalie is obviously pumping up Wayward Sisters in this intro but it sounds like the "finale" this year is 3 episodes long with a big cast and it starts tonight.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree, 100%. They haven't shown Mary make ANY effort to bond with Dean and Sam in the year, the YEAR she was resurrected, until she nearly killed them both and Dean managed to pull her out of robot!Mary land. Yet she can bond enough with another kid and a bunch of strangers in the course of a few months that she's willing - anxious even - to stay behind with them even after her sons come to rescue her? Please. I think your typos are too kind.

Quoting myself here, because it hasn't even been months. She was a prisoner most of the time. So her 'bonding' time  and feelings for Bobby, etc., can be measured in weeks. Seriously, screw you, Mom.

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

Fates are changed, growth is had, dynamics are explored, and from every angle, every possible facet, this episode is technicolor proof of what many fans have long believed – that despite its irreversibly Winchesterial DNA, Supernatural does work as an ensemble show.

That is very much a matter of opinion, and not one I share. Like, at all.

@SueB I know this isn't your quote but ptv insists on it, lol.

[SueB]

@gonzosgirrl no worries... ptv is funny that way. 

[Casseiopeia]

From S.E. Hinton looks like Charlie and Ketch are in this episode too...

[Wynne88]

I sure don't see the group as 'Sam Winchester's band of merry men', and I doubt he does either. 

Can somebody refresh my memory as to just why Michael wants to kill everybody in our universe?

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I sure don't see the group as 'Sam Winchester's band of merry men', and I doubt he does either. 

Can somebody refresh my memory as to just why Michael wants to kill everybody in our universe?

I don't think wiping out humanity is his goal so much as having a fresh planet since they've destroyed his. Humanity is just a mess to be cleaned up, like when you move into a new house and find something nasty in the basement, or that was my take on it anyway.

Unless he thinks by getting to our universe he'll get a shot at a fresh new Heaven, too? Dunno. They haven't fleshed out his story in 20 episodes. Not sure they can do it in three.

Edited May 3, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That is very much a matter of opinion, and not one I share. Like, at all.

Word. SPN isn't an ensemble show, and this version full of resurrected characters and others that have overstayed their welcome really isn't an improvement from the previous times they tried that formula. It actually just shows how stale the show is creatively.

 

Jensen and Jared need more time off ? Then make 13 episodes seasons. More Winchesters, more focus. everybody wins.

Edited May 3, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Casseiopeia]

They certainly look like they are seeing someone/thing they never expected to see...

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

Jensen and Jared need more time off ? Then make 13 episodes seasons. More Winchesters, more focus. everybody wins.

The J's have been lobbying for this for awhile now.  I almost get the feeling they might have won that one with the CW.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

They certainly look like they are seeing someone/thing they never expected to see...

 

LOL, I don't think any of us expected (or needed) to see that.

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL, I don't think any of us expected (or needed) to see that

I haven't seen the episode yet but I know what they saw.  Ewww...

[BoxManLocke]

 

The Lucifer show, Pt2

 

I will build a shrine in the glory of the writer who will end this farce. Even if it's BuckLeming in this episode.

 

Edit : This is the promo for ep 22 I'm showing but it's not displaying properly for some reason

Edited May 4, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[SueB]

I am completely strapped in for this rollercoaster ride.  Looks like a 3-part "finale".  Works for me.  

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I wonder if Dean will make a deal with Death to save Sam and the deal will be for him to be her agent-of-a type when she needs him and she calls on him in the finale to fulfill the deal by taking on CagedMichael in order to fight AWMichael.

I think she is aware he has to make rhat choice in order to save our world. I think tbis is,strongly implied by her comments to him in AT.  

I am not sure she would force him to do it.  She might be willing ro hekp gim if he needs help getting to hell.

[companionenvy]

This last episode left me with more questions about how Dean!Michael is likely to happen. Before this episode, one of the most logical assumptions was that Dean was going to say "yes" because they needed Michael's grace to open the rift. But they solved that problem, and now they're in the AU with two archangels, albeit one who is quite low on power. There was also spec that Dean would do it to resurrect Sam, but the show played the "Sam is dead" card in this episode, and I don't think they'll do ti again in the remaining two. 

So, what I'm now wondering is if Dean doesn't somehow wind up doing it to save heaven. The angels' acceptance of Lucifer and Cas's conversation with Gabriel set up the idea that an archangel at the helm might be what they need. Right now, it seems there are other options for restoring heaven: namely moving some of the AU angels to our world, Gabriel, and Jack. But I've always suspected Jack was being set up as savior of the AU-world, not ours, and the AU angels seem to be even worse news than ours, and a lot of them are likely to die out in whatever showdown with AU Michael is coming. Since it sounds like we're meant to take the fate of the AU seriously, I don't see depleting their angel supply to reinforce ours as an option. That leaves Gabriel, and its a possibility. But the fact that Cas introduced the idea at this point suggests to me that it is not going to happen. Maybe Gabe will die, or maybe he'll be the one to take leadership in the AU once Michael is gone, under the logic that Jack isn't yet ready. 

So, I can see a scenario in which Lucifer dies taking out AU Michael and Gabriel and Jack remain in the AU, leaving our world in desperate straits (and it was established that all the human souls would be at risk of destruction if heaven fell). Michael is the only archangel left, and he's a total wreck - but finally possessing his OTV might be enough to shake him out of it. Dean doesn't really care about heavenly politics, but he cares a lot about the many people he's lost who are now in heaven and face total obliteration if it falls. That would be incentive enough for him, I'd say. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

There was also spec that Dean would do it to resurrect Sam, but the show played the "Sam is dead" card in this episode, and I don't think they'll do ti again in the remaining two. 

Or they will and make it a case of "I can`t watch that again". I seriously hope not but I wouldn`t count it out. 

So far, still no Michael-sighting or Michael-mention of any kind. So whatever happens in the Finale, it will have little to no real story build-up. Because next week`s episode sounds like more comedy acts with Lucifer.

[SueB]

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2018/05/04/supernatural-photos-s13e22-exodus/?slide=3

Pics for the next episode.

[BoxManLocke]

9 hours ago, companionenvy said:

This last episode left me with more questions about how Dean!Michael is likely to happen. Before this episode, one of the most logical assumptions was that Dean was going to say "yes" because they needed Michael's grace to open the rift. But they solved that problem, and now they're in the AU with two archangels, albeit one who is quite low on power. There was also spec that Dean would do it to resurrect Sam, but the show played the "Sam is dead" card in this episode, and I don't think they'll do ti again in the remaining two. 

So, what I'm now wondering is if Dean doesn't somehow wind up doing it to save heaven. The angels' acceptance of Lucifer and Cas's conversation with Gabriel set up the idea that an archangel at the helm might be what they need. Right now, it seems there are other options for restoring heaven: namely moving some of the AU angels to our world, Gabriel, and Jack. But I've always suspected Jack was being set up as savior of the AU-world, not ours, and the AU angels seem to be even worse news than ours, and a lot of them are likely to die out in whatever showdown with AU Michael is coming. Since it sounds like we're meant to take the fate of the AU seriously, I don't see depleting their angel supply to reinforce ours as an option. That leaves Gabriel, and its a possibility. But the fact that Cas introduced the idea at this point suggests to me that it is not going to happen. Maybe Gabe will die, or maybe he'll be the one to take leadership in the AU once Michael is gone, under the logic that Jack isn't yet ready. 

So, I can see a scenario in which Lucifer dies taking out AU Michael and Gabriel and Jack remain in the AU, leaving our world in desperate straits (and it was established that all the human souls would be at risk of destruction if heaven fell). Michael is the only archangel left, and he's a total wreck - but finally possessing his OTV might be enough to shake him out of it. Dean doesn't really care about heavenly politics, but he cares a lot about the many people he's lost who are now in heaven and face total obliteration if it falls. That would be incentive enough for him, I'd say. 

 

It's actually a not-so-terrible ending for this season.

Whatever theories come out though, there's still the issue that there are only two episodes left and I have no idea how they could properly set anything up. They're not coming back to our world until, at best, the end of episode 22, thus only leaving the finale to start something, so anything about our Michael just seems impossible, doesn't it ?

I also don't see the AW stuff ending next episode, the battle against Michael hasn't even started, there's no resolution in sight right now.

 

So uh... good luck writers, I guess.

Edited May 4, 2018 by BoxManLocke