Spoilers With Speculation

[Bobcatkitten]

So when it says an impulsive decision has consequences - do we think that is Dean's impulsive decision? I am leaning toward another character making a decision that impacts Dean. 

[belbar]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with the bold - that's why I said most of the time, not all. I do think his leaving leaving Sam (I'm poison) and taking on the mark was heavily flavoured with a blend punishment and atonement, heavy on the self-flagellation (over Kevin's death and what they had to do to Sam to get Gadreel out, not for saving Sam in the first place - but that's another post ;). I think there is a textbook to be written when it comes to the psychology of Dean Winchester.

Also, I said a blend of a and c for whatever the remaining eps of S13 hold for him. I think 'a' is Dean's default state, but there is enough going on right now to edge him into 'c' territory, and Sam getting the ever-loving crap beat out of him is going to push him further. I don't think that's the last straw though, although I can't guess what the writers will pull out of their asses that might be right now.

Totally agree with you. And yes Sam getting beaten is going to be the starting point and we still don't know how it will evolve because now we have another two factors that were never there before: Cinnamon roll Jack and super duper mommy. So we will see.

Edited April 30, 2018 by belbar

[Myrelle]

53 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So when it says an impulsive decision has consequences - do we think that is Dean's impulsive decision? I am leaning toward another character making a decision that impacts Dean. 

For a while, I thought it would w/o a doubt be Dean, himself, but I'm not so sure of that now...

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Could be a whole University course. LOL

Seriously. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So when it says an impulsive decision has consequences - do we think that is Dean's impulsive decision? I am leaning toward another character making a decision that impacts Dean. 

I suspect Dean has been planning something for sometime. I think that is why he said "I have faith". Because he didn't say it like it was a happy thing. It was the most serious and IMO kind of unhappy declaration of 'faith'. 

So I do think it could be that whatever Dean has up his sleeve will get altered by something someone else does, so he goes to plan B or even worse, plan B is thrust upon him.

I wonder if he'll be Loki and that Gabriel didn't really kill Loki.

[Bobcatkitten]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I suspect Dean has been planning something for sometime. I think that is why he said "I have faith". Because he didn't say it like it was a happy thing. It was the most serious and IMO kind of unhappy declaration of 'faith'. 

So I do think it could be that whatever Dean has up his sleeve will get altered by something someone else does, so he goes to plan B or even worse, plan B is thrust upon him.

I wonder if he'll be Loki and that Gabriel didn't really kill Loki.

If we have another - ha, he didn't really die thing - I'm going to be so annoyed. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

If we have another - ha, he didn't really die thing - I'm going to be so annoyed. 

I just find it impossible to think Loki could be killed. We saw him as a apparition to Dean, why wouldn't the one that appeared to Gabriel a Los be an apparition. Why would Loki risk himself that way?

[Bobcatkitten]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I just find it impossible to think Loki could be killed. We saw him as a apparition to Dean, why wouldn't the one that appeared to Gabriel a Los be an apparition. Why would Loki risk himself that way?

You make sense. I'm just tired of no one ever really dying and randomly popping back up. They've overdone that. 

Do we have preview pics for this week? 

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I just find it impossible to think Loki could be killed. We saw him as a apparition to Dean, why wouldn't the one that appeared to Gabriel a Los be an apparition. Why would Loki risk himself that way?

But then why, also, would he risk his sons that way? They seemed to be pretty easily killed. I think the fatal flaw of 99% of the humanoid supernatural beings on this show is hubris. They never seem to think anything can touch them.

But I'm 10000% in agreement with @Bobcatkitten  One more psych!!!notreallydead entity on this show and Imma start flipping tables.

[Jonesy]

People keep overthinking this--Dean will be our Michael and no he wasn't hiding as The Empty creature. 

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, Jakes said:

People keep overthinking this--Dean will be our Michael and no he wasn't hiding as The Empty creature. 

Andrew, is that you? If so, I have several bones to pick with you. :)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I wonder if he'll be Loki and that Gabriel didn't really kill Loki.

Loki doesn`t fit the parameters given for Jensen`s new character. 

But really, if after pulling a retcon on Gabriel`s original death in Season 5 - and you can`t tell me that wasn`t supposed to be a real death at that point - by claiming he pulled a trick, to then introduce the convoluted Loki backstory, kill him off and then claim it was also pretty much the same trick Gabe had pulled? Beyond lame. Which is not to say they won`t do it, of course.  

Quote

So when it says an impulsive decision has consequences - do we think that is Dean's impulsive decision? I am leaning toward another character making a decision that impacts Dean. 

It could be the usual promo monkey`s thing to keep it vague. And it does spoil that it is impulsive compared to a predermined plan - unless "impulsive" is also hyperbolic in that scenario. But they spoiled Jensen`s new character weeks back so it`s not like that has to be kept under wraps. 

What I`m sadly believing right now is the motivation for whatever Dean does will be about family and not for once about protecting the world as it should be. I had hoped he would be given a heroic background on the matter. I have less than no patience for "I do it for my family" and then hand over a shady entity power. Blergh. The only time I ever hated the character in the show was after the deal in Season 2.   

Edited April 30, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Jonesy]

46 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Andrew, is that you? If so, I have several bones to pick with you. :)

Nah, in fact I think a number of people are thinking the writers have all these tricky scenarios... I think its our Michael and that's it.

[ILoveReading]

 

I went back and rewatched the promo for episode 21. 

This is the episode where Sam is supposed to go through something.  In the mine shaft shaft it looks like there is a some kind of vampire like creature in.  We see Dean with a scared look on his face, and it cuts to Sam looking scared.  Then we see Sam have blood on him. 

Its blurry and goes by quick, but it looks like Sam had a chuck taken out of his neck. 

My guess is that Sam dies or almost dies in this ep.   It will take Gabriel's grace to resurrect him, leaving him short.   Which is what will prompt the Michael conversation.

Rowena is also supposed to to something that alters the journey for Sam or Dean.

We see Rowena being beat up, so I'm guessing she's going to sell out either Sam or Dean. 

My guess is Sam since he's the one whose supposed to kill her.  Plus, it adds extra guilt for Dean.

[Aeryn13]

I wonder if by "alters the journey for one of our heroes", they actually refer to Jack. Somehow Rowena makes it so Lucifer crosses over into AU-world or Jack back into ours or both of them into somewhere. We do know the two meet in ep 21 and spent a good chunk of time together in ep 22.

Which convinces me Lucifer will in no way be "beaten" permanently in ep 21. Nor will he possess someone/Sam since Sam is with the others, driving around in trucks and filming at gas `n sips for episode 22 while I`m pretty sure Mark Pellegrino filmed with Alexander Calvert.    

Edited April 30, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Why?  Dean is the perfect vessel in our world, but since he doesn't exist in the other one, I would assume someone else would fit the bill there - perhaps the vessel AU Michael is currently possessing.  And an army is a pretty big advantage.

Because Dean doesn't exist in that world yes.

They have introduced the concept of butterfly effect and choice in text.  I have to assume we are meant to believe that the AU 's reflect what happens when small changes occur and ripple effects occur.  We already know that over there Mary did not take the deal and John died, Dean and Sam where never born and the Apocalypse happened.  

So yeah I am going to extrapolate that Michael is not in his OTV and Dean!Michael would be stronger and better in every way especially because of who and what Dean has become.

It is not like they are going to let AU Michael win. Obviously a battle is coming of some sort..   And I do not see a repeat of Swan Song coming.  This is war.   Tbis guy uses suicide bombers. He tortured mom.  He is going down.  There will be blood.

My autocorrect corrected my typo to OTV which is pretty funny... lol.

[Jonesy]

Looking at the preview for next episode--it just strikes me again that with Cas, he hasn't been this well done since classic Cas of seasons 4 thru 6.   The tough warrior Cas who loves the Winchesters has been great this year...one of the best things Dabb has done in his tenure.

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, Jakes said:

Looking at the preview for next episode--it just strikes me again that with Cas, he hasn't been this well done since classic Cas of seasons 4 thru 6.   The tough warrior Cas who loves the Winchesters has been great this year...one of the best things Dabb has done in his tenure.

Yes... I agree.

Waiting for the other shoe to drop...

Half expect it not to be really Cas... and he brought back the empty entity...

Lots of references to masks and hidden identies this season in motw, Asmodeus and Gabriel/loki episodes...  pretty sure these hintvatca huge twist for a character.  My best guess is Cas 

?????

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Castiels Cat said:

Half expect it not to be really Cas... and he brought back the empty entity...

Not that Dabb can really be trusted but Dabb said they had no plans to revisit The Empty this year.

[Castiels Cat]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

 

I went back and rewatched the promo for episode 21. 

This is the episode where Sam is supposed to go through something.  In the mine shaft shaft it looks like there is a some kind of vampire like creature in.  We see Dean with a scared look on his face, and it cuts to Sam looking scared.  Then we see Sam have blood on him. 

Its blurry and goes by quick, but it looks like Sam had a chuck taken out of his neck. 

My guess is that Sam dies or almost dies in this ep.   It will take Gabriel's grace to resurrect him, leaving him short.   Which is what will prompt the Michael conversation.

Rowena is also supposed to to something that alters the journey for Sam or Dean.

We see Rowena being beat up, so I'm guessing she's going to sell out either Sam or Dean. 

My guess is Sam since he's the one whose supposed to kill her.  Plus, it adds extra guilt for Dean.

The vampire thing may be one of the weirdo demons they have over there??? But yes... Gabriel is pretty useless especially post-revenge arc and having given another vial of grace.  They should have left him with Rowena in case they needed to reopen the rift again.

Every road leads to Dean!Michael. So many ways they have set It up...  

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Not that Dabb can really be trusted but Dabb said they had no plans to revisit The Empty this year.

The would not be revisiting the empty if the guy came to earth inside of Cas.

It would be great if he did not though because I really hated that part of the episode 

AT was a great episode otherwise.

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

Nah, in fact I think a number of people are thinking the writers have all these tricky scenarios... I think its our Michael and that's it.

They have totally set up Dean!Michael as in our universe's Michael. I agree x100000000.

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I wonder if by "alters the journey for one of our heroes", they actually refer to Jack. Somehow Rowena makes it so Lucifer crosses over into AU-world or Jack back into ours or both of them into somewhere. We do know the two meet in ep 21 and spent a good chunk of time together in ep 22.

Which convinces me Lucifer will in no way be "beaten" permanently in ep 21. Nor will he possess someone/Sam since Sam is with the others, driving around in trucks and filming at gas `n sips for episode 22 while I`m pretty sure Mark Pellegrino filmed with Alexander Calvert.    

You might be right with the Rowena thing.  I just dont think of Jack as "one of our heroes."

[Jonesy]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes... I agree.

Waiting for the other shoe to drop...

Half expect it not to be really Cas... and he brought back the empty entity...

Lots of references to masks and hidden identies this season in motw, Asmodeus and Gabriel/loki episodes...  pretty sure these hintvatca huge twist for a character.  My best guess is Cas 

?????

Yeah, I don't see some elaborate hidden thing with Cas.  I just go with what Misha has said--that Cas has seen going too human didn't work for him...so he's going tougher.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Jakes said:

People keep overthinking this--Dean will be our Michael and no he wasn't hiding as The Empty creature. 

It was just an insomniacs crazy idea...

Wild spec... brain worm...

Not logical spec... like my longstanding APOCALYPSE/!Michael speculation which started last season.

And yet it will not leave my weary head.

Just now, Jakes said:

Yeah, I don't see some elaborate hidden thing with Cas.  I just go with what Misha has said--that Cas has seen going too human didn't work for him...so he's going tougher.

Reassuring.

They did not a series of motw with masks and monsters hiding their identities plus Asmodeus plus Gabriel plus Loki.

So somebody has to be hiding their identity.  

They outed Asmodeus too soon and we already knew about Gabriel and Loki.

And evil Kaia does not count either.

They never do a long running theme like that for no reason.   There will be a twist I suspect.

I had not heard that Mischa quote.   

[Castiels Cat]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

You might be right with the Rowena thing.  I just dont think of Jack as "one of our heroes."

If the rift is open Lucifer can just jump through.  Maybe she impairs him to a large degree.  She is far motecpowerful rhan She was.  Coukd she strio him of his remaining grace? We saw natural  witches trump Leviathan and they were more powerful than angels.

I wonder if she somehow takes his grace.

The trailer make a her look like a victim however she is extremely powerful now and he is at his weakest.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Loki doesn`t fit the parameters given for Jensen`s new character. 

But really, if after pulling a retcon on Gabriel`s original death in Season 5 - and you can`t tell me that wasn`t supposed to be a real death at that point - by claiming he pulled a trick, to then introduce the convoluted Loki backstory, kill him off and then claim it was also pretty much the same trick Gabe had pulled? Beyond lame. Which is not to say they won`t do it, of course.  

It could be the usual promo monkey`s thing to keep it vague. And it does spoil that it is impulsive compared to a predermined plan - unless "impulsive" is also hyperbolic in that scenario. But they spoiled Jensen`s new character weeks back so it`s not like that has to be kept under wraps. 

What I`m sadly believing right now is the motivation for whatever Dean does will be about family and not for once about protecting the world as it should be. I had hoped he would be given a heroic background on the matter. I have less than no patience for "I do it for my family" and then hand over a shady entity power. Blergh. The only time I ever hated the character in the show was after the deal in Season 2.   

Loss of family is usually the trigger for this reckless despair depression fueled  self sacrifice moves... 

He always steps up when the world needs saving.

We are getting both this time around.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Could be a whole University course. LOL

Just like there is for cats.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You might be right with the Rowena thing.  I just dont think of Jack as "one of our heroes."

I don`t think of him that way either but who even can say what goes through the head of one of the promo interns. 

Quote

Loss of family is usually the trigger for this reckless despair depression fueled  self sacrifice moves... 

He always steps up when the world needs saving.

We are getting both this time around.

I could stomach both if they made it clear that two is an option, especially as I`m sure the choice if something dangerous. You just don`t sell the world away for your own personal gain. 

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So when it says an impulsive decision has consequences - do we think that is Dean's impulsive decision? I am leaning toward another character making a decision that impacts Dean. 

No. Thinking Dean makes an impulsive decision like he did when he sold his soul, or killed himself in season 6 and in Advanced Thanotology, or offered himself to any angel who could save Sam in season 9 or took on the Mark of Cain or sassed the Mob Boss in A Holy Man, or kissed the cursed girl in Love Hurts, or raced off to kill Loki alone, or decided to open the rift and go alone....

Do you see the pattern?

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I suspect Dean has been planning something for sometime. I think that is why he said "I have faith". Because he didn't say it like it was a happy thing. It was the most serious and IMO kind of unhappy declaration of 'faith'. 

So I do think it could be that whatever Dean has up his sleeve will get altered by something someone else does, so he goes to plan B or even worse, plan B is thrust upon him.

I wonder if he'll be Loki and that Gabriel didn't really kill Loki.

I got the same thing from the I have faith line.

Dean has faith in himself figuring out a way. And yes he has his plan B.  We saw that in Scoobynatural. We saw it on his face during the close-up when Cas mentioned that they need angel grace.

Dean!Michael. 

[Castiels Cat]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think of him that way either but who even can say what goes through the head of one of the promo interns. 

I could stomach both if they made it clear that two is an option, especially as I`m sure the choice if something dangerous. You just don`t sell the world away for your own personal gain. 

That is not what it is. Two birds one deal.

When Dean sold his soul the only outcome he saw was that he was saving Sam.  The only one who paid the price was Dean.  He had no way of knowing about anything else.

This time around my guess is that he will see there is no way to save Sam/Mary, etc., their world will lose, heaven will fall apart, there will be chaos and he will have failed again. Failed everyone.  The only chance he has is to make a deal with Michael.  Convince him and then he can save his family so rhat they can fight, he can fight AU Michael and his minions, they can fix heaven and when this  choice goes sideways because they always do then he will deal with to...

If he still has the fight in him.

What worries me is that this time he is broken to a much larger extent than previously.  

So they may be planning to go dark.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[belbar]

20 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Could be a whole University course. LOL

Just like there is for cats.

College is not what it used to be. Maybe Dabb is in charge of that too.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Loki doesn`t fit the parameters given for Jensen`s new character. 

This!

And Loki makes absolutely no sense logically or strategically.  

And there has been absolutely no ser-up for this in the writing on any level.  

7 minutes ago, belbar said:

College is not what it used to be. Maybe Dabb is in charge of that too.

Apparently cats have very complicated psychology.  It is a course in vet school.  

3 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

You make sense. I'm just tired of no one ever really dying and randomly popping back up. They've overdone that. 

Do we have preview pics for this week? 

Because the entire point of the episode was Gabriel getting satisfaction through revenge for the wrongs done to him like the Bride in Kill Bill.

Set-up for Sam killing Lucifer apparently.

Loki is an unimportant demigod with no relevance to the story other than Gabriel's relationship to him and Gabriel terminated that.

[belbar]

11 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

That is not what it is. Two birds one deal.

When Dean sold his soul the only outcome he saw was that he was saving Sam.  The only one who paid the price was Dean.  He had no way of knowing about anything else.

This time around my guess is that he will see there is no way to save Sam/Mary, etc., their world will lose, heaven will fall apart, there will be chaos and he will have failed again. Failed everyone.  The only chance he has is to make a deal with Michael.  Convince him and then he can save his family so rhat they can fight, he can fight AU Michael and his minions, they can fix heaven and when this  choice goes sideways because they always do then he will deal with to...

If he still has the fight in him.

What worries me is that this time he is broken to a much larger extent than previously.  

So they may be planning to go dark.

Whatever happens I don't think that he might consider to go dark. He had a taste of it with MOC and DemonDean and remeber he told Cas that he couldn't go that road again. If Alt Michael comes to this world (and apparently he already has the spell) there could be no other way to defeat him than the original Michael. Then I could see Dean  agree to submit to him now if the deal included  a guarantee that he will not destroy earth but return to Heaven to restablish the status quo and to keep Dean's family alive.   Point is how would that translate into a new character for Jensen the next season. Is Michael now going to become a more permanent part of the show? Whatever the deal, it must include a possibility for Dean to come back. I don't think the show would dare to change that, however it could be the dangerous change that Singer mentioned. Doubtful though.

But what about Lucifer, because he's still there and not likely to just go away.

What's Sam's role in all this. He'll get beaten in next episode, but will not stay that way and just see it coming. What about Cas?

There are so many characters and so many thing going on that I don't see how they can wrap it all up in just a couple of episodes.

This whole speculation thing is getting way out of control (may be I should consider that cat pshycology course after all).

[Aeryn13]

The summary for episode 22 said that Dean and Sam devise a plan. It doesn`t say which kind of plan or what for but it stands to reason that it is to defeat AU-Michael or at least hold off his invasion. Then ep 23 speaks of "an impulsive decision". Maybe the plan doesn`t work out as expected and we`re going over to late minute improv. 

If so, I would expect some set-up for our!Michael already. So far Dean hasn`t interacted with any of the Michaels. And if he becomes him, there needs to be at least one set-up scene to discuss bringing in prime!Michael and to facilitate this and one scene where Dean discusses things with him. Episodes go by and by and by and nothing happens on that front.

Quote

Because the entire point of the episode was Gabriel getting satisfaction through revenge for the wrongs done to him like the Bride in Kill Bill.

Set-up for Sam killing Lucifer apparently.

 Not in the next episode, likely not this Season and probably not in the show`s remaining length. Lucifer will spend ample time with Jack in episode 22. And IMO he will also still be in episode 23. IMO they want to milk that relationship first. 

Furthermore, I think the producers love the actor/character like no other on the show right now. I think Dabb likes Sam fine but if push came to shove, he`d probably sooner let Lucifer kill Sam than the other way around.  

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with the bold - that's why I said most of the time, not all. I do think his leaving leaving Sam (I'm poison) and taking on the mark was heavily flavoured with a blend punishment and atonement, heavy on the self-flagellation (over Kevin's death and what they had to do to Sam to get Gadreel out, not for saving Sam in the first place - but that's another post ;). I think there is a textbook to be written when it comes to the psychology of Dean Winchester.

Also, I said a blend of a and c for whatever the remaining eps of S13 hold for him. I think 'a' is Dean's default state, but there is enough going on right now to edge him into 'c' territory, and Sam getting the ever-loving crap beat out of him is going to push him further. I don't think that's the last straw though, although I can't guess what the writers will pull out of their asses that might be right now.

The MoC decision was about punishing himself and sacrificing himself to get a win by taking out Abaddon.  I  think the trials were about punishing himself too and maybe also when he thought about saying yes to Michael. In all of these instances we were dealing with alienation of affections as the loss of family  motivator rather than threat of death.  

[Jonesy]

Does Dabb like Lucifer--yes...more than Dean and Sam?  Don't think so.  The boys are still the clear heroes and center of the show and don't see them being disrespected as some do.

[belbar]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If so, I would expect some set-up for our!Michael already. So far Dean hasn`t interacted with any of the Michaels. And if he becomes him, there needs to be at least one set-up scene to discuss bringing in prime!Michael and to facilitate this and one scene where Dean discusses things with him. Episodes go by and by and by and nothing happens on that front.

This is why I have my doubts about Michael. Everybody seems to think it's a done deal. But I fail to see how it's going to work in the few episodes left, specially because as you said episodes go by and nothing happens about it.

I agree that the actual circumstances could lead to it. But I don't see how it's gonna happen in just a couple of episodes. The new character thing apparently will happen in episode 23 (probably the cliffhanger) if 21 is the Sam's fail action and beating, and 22 is about Lucifer and Jack, are they going to cram all the other things in just one last episode?

[Jonesy]

Nothing is set up directly with Dean--Michael or anyone else.  They just need to bring it up in one episode as a path they think of...doesn't have to be brought up way ahead.  Someone will bring up Michael or some new news about Michael is brought to their attention if it's Michael as I believe.

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Brought over from the episode thread quotes from Castiel's Cat and Belbar, respectively.

I'm bringing this to the spoiler thread because I'm wondering how they're going to get Dean to take on the new character. The episode description calls it an "impulsive" decision and I think that they're attempting to show us Dean going off the rails again, but he's doing it in the way that he usually does it, IMO-by throwing himself fully into the next hunt/mission-which is what Jensen said he did when he took on the MOC. I don't have a source for that, but I remember him saying it because it made sense to me.

I don't think that Dean has ever been "actively suicidal" meaning that he would take his own life or even hurt himself. He even told the Benny in his head in The Werther Project that there was "no honor" in that. But he told Billie this season that he WAS ready to go now. And she stated that she could see that he had "changed" in that regard also.

So death by hunt would be more of the way he would go, IMO, if he truly did not care anymore and this could involve throwing himself into the mission again, but what might make it different is if the mission demanded that he give up his consciousness and will in order for the mission to succeed. And if so, I wonder how hard he will fight against that this time.

I DO hope that there is a decent set-up for this new character... *eyes, fingers, toes and anything else that can be are all crossed for this*...

This is exactly what I have been trying to say. He is suicidal. He literally committed suicide as a solution to a problem thay they have faced before. And yes suicide by mission is his m.o.  He definitely wants his death to result in a won, to do some good in the world to make up for all of the failures.  He has stated more or less in AT and he has stated it previously in show and it is his go to m.o., his tragic flaw.

I never meant that he would just put a him to his head. Of course not.  But he would be reckless with his life on a mission whilst protecting Sam and others as in AT. 

Or how about  The Holy Man episode...

He just mouthed off to the monster because he did not care whether he lived or died.  That is exactly what that was.  Mobsters shoot people for disrespect.  They have been loaded the season with signs.

And I totally agree it is scary in terms of what he may agree to if he truly dorsn't care anymore and is just so fundamentally broken that he cannotgo on... this is new territory.

They probably do not have the balls.

I am excited to see what happens which feelsxwrird because these days since Dabb took over I watch an episode once and I can barely remember the titles.  I have been expecting the Apocalypse and Dean!Michael since 12:1 and seeing if I was right and looking for signs was the only thing that kept me watching.... and Jensen.

Oh and I am the only person  thatloves,what they did with Mary.

But this season has startled me.  Yeah there have been the meh and the bad but they have wow'd me with how well they set up Dean's,storyline, tied it to his family tragedy, Dam and Mary, and just seeded it with hints of Dean!Michael.

For me it feels like a modern Greek tragedy along the lines of the House of Atreus cycle via the Oresteii.  Just magnificent.  If Kim Manners were still here and if they had good writers this would be every bit as good as season 4.

RIP Kim Manners.  You are missed.

[MysteryGuest]

I just don't see a reason why Michael would be interested in helping anyone at this point.  If the world weren't threatened again, they'd be perfectly content to leave his ass in the Cage for all eternity, so what's his incentive to help them?  The chance to be free, I suppose, but he may also be killed by AU Michael.  

I can't believe it will be Loki.  Honestly, until this past episode, I had forgotten who Loki even was.  I can't see him as a character the fans would be shocked by or clamoring for.  

Maybe Rowena and Sam attempt to exact revenge on Lucifer and something goes horribly wrong, as it usually does.  Then Dean would need to "step up in a big way" to save them?  And if Sam finally seeks revenge against Lucifer, that might be what Jared was all excited and emotional about.  I can't imagine them bringing John back for this season's cliffhanger.  There have been too many other characters already brought back.  I think if JDM is ever on again, it will be when the show ends.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And if Sam finally seeks revenge against Lucifer, that might be what Jared was all excited and emotional about.

I really feel this is the case. I've never seen Jared get so emotional over something that happens with/to anyone but Sam. As soon as the true face/angsty Sam came into play, his comments began to make sense. ETA: and if somehow he is getting to end Lucifer, Jensen's comment that the fans were gonna hate it... or would they?! (paraphrased) also makes sense. Unfortunately this is a more believable context (for me) for that whole thing than them actually getting excited over Dean.

Edited April 30, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[belbar]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just don't see a reason why Michael would be interested in helping anyone at this point.  If the world weren't threatened again, they'd be perfectly content to leave his ass in the Cage for all eternity, so what's his incentive to help them?  The chance to be free, I suppose, but he may also be killed by AU Michael.  

May be he would agree in exchange of his liberty of the Cage AND the possibility of returning to Heaven and save it and restore the status quo.

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think if JDM is ever on again, it will be when the show ends.

Anyone think maybe it's Dean being John/Jensen playing JDM playing John?  That would certainly fit all the hints, though I honestly can't see how it would happen.  

[belbar]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Anyone think maybe it's Dean being John/Jensen playing JDM playing John?  That would certainly fit all the hints, though I honestly can't see how it would happen.

I said that it would fit with some of the comments that we have been hearing. IT was my first thought when Jensen talked about it. The big shoes to fill. The character we haven't seen in years. JAred's comment that he had tears in his eyes when he read it and that fans would love it. It would fit all of it.

I'd love it too (with other writers) but I don't see it happening to be honest.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, belbar said:

I said that it would fit with some of the comments that we have been hearing. IT was my first thought when Jensen talked about it. The big shoes to fill. The character we haven't seen in years. JAred's comment that he had tears in his eyes when he read it and that fans would love it. It would fit all of it.

I'd love it too (with other writers) but I don't see it happening to be honest.

Yup.  But I don't put anything past these writers (or showrunners) if they want something to happen--no plot twist or retcon too convoluted (or stupid). :)  

Maybe AU!John isn't really dead and is somehow magically 30 years younger.  Or escapes heaven (or hell).  Or his ghost possesses Dean in order to see Mary, his One True Love again.  Who knows?

[belbar]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Yup.  But I don't put anything past these writers (or showrunners) if they want something to happen--no plot twist or retcon too convoluted (or stupid). :)  

Maybe AU!John isn't really dead and is somehow magically 30 years younger.  Or escapes heaven (or hell).  Or his ghost possesses Dean in order to see Mary, his One True Love again.  Who knows?

Agree on not putting anything past these writers part, but the rest of it is a little too far fetched for my taste.

[Casseiopeia]

56 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Anyone think maybe it's Dean being John/Jensen playing JDM playing John?  That would certainly fit all the hints, though I honestly can't see how it would happen.  

That is my favorite speculation so far.  We don't know where John is.  Ash couldn't find him in heaven and the John that Mary knew in heaven wasn't the John that raised Sam and Dean.  John hasn't had any resolution as far as his whereabouts.   The Empty?  How Dean becomes him or why?  No clue.

MIchael makes more sense story wise but Jensen's comments along with Singer's makes think someone way bigger than Matt Cohen or Jake Abel.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Anyone think maybe it's Dean being John/Jensen playing JDM playing John?  That would certainly fit all the hints, though I honestly can't see how it would happen.  

But why though? What use would John be that Jensen would consider Dean 'stepping up'.

[ahrtee]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

But why though? What use would John be that Jensen would consider Dean 'stepping up'.

That's why the writers would have to pull something out of their ass.  I'm sure they could do it...just not sure if it would make any sense to anyone but themselves.  But I can't see that stopping them (it hasn't before!)  

Note:  I'm not saying it's going to happen, or even it's likely.  Just that it fits the rumors and if TPTB want it, they can make it so.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's why the writers would have to pull something out of their ass. 

They've been doing plenty of this for the last few seasons; I'm sure they could come up with something!

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's why the writers would have to pull something out of their ass.  I'm sure they could do it...just not sure if it would make any sense to anyone but themselves.  But I can't see that stopping them (it hasn't before!)  

Note:  I'm not saying it's going to happen, or even it's likely.  Just that it fits the rumors and if TPTB want it, they can make it so.

I think I'm pretty imaginative, but I literally can't think of one scenario that could make this make sense. I realize that isn't requisite with this crew, but still.

And when I do try to think of it, I think of Mary being alive and John being alive in Dean's body, and then I have to go bleach my brain.  *shudders*

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And when I do try to think of it, I think of Mary being alive and John being alive in Dean's body, and then I have to go bleach my brain.  *shudders*

Oh god! *gags*