Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

Well now they are just fucking with us.

[SueB]

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean is not required to clear his plans with Cas.  Nor does he need Cas's permission.  Which is exactly how this will come across to me if it happens on screen.

Cas told Dean he ditched him in purgatory because he was like a beacon that drew the bad things to him.  I'm guessing that Dean might feel like the same thing might happen here.  It's an educated guess.  As we saw Michael and the angels were drawn to Jack's powers.  So its likely Cas can't use his powers.

Plus, I think there is a part of Dean that is worried about losing Cas again.

IMO, if Cas has an opportunity to go into AW after Dean but choses to stay in the bunker he's making a choice and agreeing with Dean's plan.  This give Cas zero rights to yell at Dean for anything.

Dean demanded Cas explain what he was doing when he went to go meet with the Angels. Dean wanted to come with, Cas said no. Dean said "Don't do anything stupid." To me, that's Dean asking Cas to explain himself to he and Sam.  So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  Dean should be expected to explain his plan to Cas.  I think Cas has every right to be pissed at Dean.  Unless there's an obvious "You were in Italy, I'm not making a international call just to have you yell at me." reason.  The simple "you weren't here so I made the decision" only works if the urgency was evident.  CLEARLY getting them rescued was a priority and they worked it as hard as they could until they found them.  BUT they did take time to solve the haunted pawn shop case (yes, that has meta issues) and help Donna with her kin (well, that has extended family implications).  The acceleration from 0 to 60  in 2 seconds felt rushed (hence my reasoning that he didn't call Cas cause he didn't want to be disuaded or somehow risk Cas).  My point being that until told otherwise, the urgency didn't preclude a call. Dean chose not to. And I think he can't expect Cas to answer to him (Dean) if Dean won't answer to Cas.  All three hold each other accountable.  I think that's part of who they are.  And let's not forget that Jack is Cas' "charge".  Kelly asked Cas to raise Jack, he really IS Cas' responsibility.  Dean is making a decision on how best to rescue Jack, Cas should get a curtesy call.    

 

About following into the rift: I'm not sure you can guarantee that he'd find him in time.  I think Sam talks him into helping Gabriel instead.  But I still think just because Cas didn't ignore Dean's wishes doesn't mean he has to be silent about not being brought into the loop.

Edited April 12, 2018 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean demanded Cas explain what he was doing when he went to go meet with the Angels. Dean wanted to come with, Cas said no. Dean said "Don't do anything stupid." To me, that's Dean asking Cas to explain himself to he and Sam.  So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  Dean should be expected to explain his plan to Cas.  I think Cas has every right to be pissed at Dean.  Unless there's an obvious "You were in Italy, I'm not making a international call just to have you yell at me." reason.  The simple "you weren't here so I made the decision" only works if the urgency was evident.  CLEARLY getting them rescued was a priority and they worked it as hard as they could until they found them.  BUT they did take time to solve the haunted pawn shop case (yes, that has meta issues) and help Donna with her kin (well, that has extended family implications).  The acceleration from 0 to 60  in 2 seconds felt rushed (hence my reasoning that he didn't call Cas cause he didn't want to be disuaded or somehow risk Cas).  My point being that until told otherwise, the urgency didn't preclude a call. Dean chose not to. And I think he can't expect Cas to answer to him (Dean) if Dean won't answer to Cas.  All three hold each other accountable.  I think that's part of who they are.  And let's not forget that Jack is Cas' "charge".  Kelly asked Cas to raise Jack, he really IS Cas' responsibility.  Dean is making a decision on how best to rescue Jack, Cas should get a curtesy call.    

If Cas was there, I'd agree.  When Dean asked Cas about the angel plan they were in the room.  I highly doubt Cas would have made a courtesy call to Dean about going to the angels if Dean was else where  

We don't know where Cas is.  We don't even know if Dean knows where he is, because whatever Cas was up to he didn't clear those plans with Dean.   Did Cas give Dean a courtesy call before he vanished to wherever he went this ep?

As for the pawn shop, I see that as no different than other seasons.  MOTW happen between mytharcs.  When Sam and Dean did the pawn show case they had the blood, and Cas was attempting to get the fruit.  They didn't have the seal or the grace.  They took random cases during an apocalypses. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

59 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Cas told Dean he ditched him in purgatory because he was like a beacon that drew the bad things to him.

And he also didn't clear that plan with Dean before enacting it. And keeping it up for a year while Dean worried about him. Just sayin'.

 

And thinking on it now, Dean is probably going to have to leave another person he loves behind as a rift closes behind him. I'm sure they won't heap any misplaced-guilty conscience on him this time though.

Edited April 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And he also didn't clear that plan with Dean before enacting it. And keeping it up for a year. Just sayin'.

When Sam wanted to go into the cage he promised not to go in without dean. He broke that promise. 

It’s well established none of these guys communicate with the others when they want something. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

When Sam wanted to go into the cage he promised not to go in without dean. He broke that promise. 

It’s well established none of these guys communicate with the others when they want something. 

Ooh, I forgot about that. There was no more urgency to do that RIGHT NOW than for Dean to go through the rift. At least Dean explained himself to Sam first. Cas didn't consult Dean before saying yes, either.

Edited April 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And he also didn't clear that plan with Dean before enacting it. And keeping it up for a year. Just sayin'.

That was an instaneous plan based on trying to draw away the gorrilla-things.  ITA, Cas should have found a way to get a message to Dean.  He didn't, but he couldn't fly there (or showed no evidence of it) so it was difficult.  But that's a history topic.  Right now, in S13, I think they're relationship has progressed to the point that Cas has every right to crab at him.

 

Now... onto Dabb's post. Oy.  Many layers possible here.  He really should have credited Ray Bradbury.  So who is locked in WHAT cages and by whom.  Going from obvious to less so:
1. Gabriel -- acting insane -- locked up by Prince of Hell in an actual cage.
2. Lucifer -- is an insane psychopath but highly functional -- locked up in a Nick meatsuit. Also 'caged' in Heaven (based on seeing him playing Solitaire next to the throne -- dude looks bored --- being in charge of Heaven is probably not all he thought it would be).
3. Ketch -- again a highly functioning, potentially insane, psychopath -- lock up in his own remorse and guilt.

We could go more metaphorical after this but those three come to mind.  And hey, there are three storylines.  So, what will each do to get out of their 'cage' (physical or mental)?  

OR... it could mean something altogether different than a fairly literal interpretation of the quote.

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

When Sam wanted to go into the cage he promised not to go in without dean. He broke that promise. 

It’s well established none of these guys communicate with the others when they want something. 

Legit.

I'm just saying they can complain -- and the other can feel free to call them a hypocrite. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

Now... onto Dabb's post. Oy.  Many layers possible here.  He really should have credited Ray Bradbury.  So who is locked in WHAT cages and by whom.  Going from obvious to less so:
1. Gabriel -- acting insane -- locked up by Prince of Hell in an actual cage.
2. Lucifer -- is an insane psychopath but highly functional -- locked up in a Nick meatsuit. Also 'caged' in Heaven (based on seeing him playing Solitaire next to the throne -- dude looks bored --- being in charge of Heaven is probably not all he thought it would be).
3. Ketch -- again a highly functioning, potentially insane, psychopath -- lock up in his own remorse and guilt.

Michael is still in the Cage. So.....where does he fit in all this.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Michael is still in the Cage. So.....where does he fit in all this.

Why do I feel this is going to come back to Sam's time in the cage? There is a reason he shared the 'true face' of Lucifer angst with Rowena, I'm sure of it. And his empathy and 'need' for Gabriel only strengthens my belief.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why do I feel this is going to come back to Sam's time in the cage? There is a reason he shared the 'true face' of Lucifer angst with Rowena, I'm sure of it. And his empathy and 'need' for Gabriel only strengthens my belief.

 I predicted that way back to when he revealed that nugget from nowhere. I think I may have even said something to that end. I'm just surprised it took them this long to tie Michael to Sam other than co residency in the Cage and Sam using the Michael Lance.

I think we might get Michael!Sam and Deanifer or is it LuciDean? LOL

Edited April 12, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think that any of them really have the right to be lecturing anyone else about doing things without telling the other person, going off by themselves, etc.  They have all done it, and they will continue to do it, and they'll continue to give each other flack about it, too.  It doesn't bother me, honestly.

[Myrelle]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think that any of them really have the right to be lecturing anyone else about doing things without telling the other person, going off by themselves, etc.  They have all done it, and they will continue to do it, and they'll continue to give each other flack about it, too.  It doesn't bother me, honestly.

As long as no apologies are involved or necessary for some(or one) to make while the others skate.

Too bad that's not how it works, though.

[gonzosgirrl]

So based on the end of tonight's episode 13.18, I absolutely believe he's going to be Michael now.

And I think this tweet of Jensen's is him doing ADR for the scene when he gets possessed. He's sly that way.

[catrox14]

That's kind of hot I have to say and I'm not necessarily thinking of possession. I'm awful LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's kind of hot I have to say and I'm not necessarily thinking of possession. I'm awful LOL

I'll be sitting right beside you in that handcart. :)

That is so a clue though - another fight scene, or is it?

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'll be sitting right beside you in that handcart. :)

That is so a clue though - another fight scene, or is it?

Oh it is. Jensen is a spoiling little shit.

[BoxManLocke]

I'm not really following all that talk about Dean going to Michael to get some grace.

 

I'm just assuming, since they're setting up an episode where Sam & Dean help Gabe get revenge, he's the one that's going to end up giving them a bit of his grace as a reward. That'd actually be a decent setup for this episode.

[ILoveReading]

The saddest thing about this season is that Dean is fighting so hard to save someone who doesn't want to be saved. 

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The saddest thing about this season is that Dean is fighting so hard to save someone who doesn't want to be saved. 

That is going to be the biggest gut punch of all for Dean

58 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I'm not really following all that talk about Dean going to Michael to get some grace.

 

I'm just assuming, since they're setting up an episode where Sam & Dean help Gabe get revenge, he's the one that's going to end up giving them a bit of his grace as a reward. That'd actually be a decent setup for this episode.

We know that Jensen is playing a different character. So for me if Gabriel split and Dean and Cas don't find him then it makes sense for Dean to try and get the grace from the only other archangel he has access to.

Unless of course they swerve and it's actually Lucifer.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

When Sam wanted to go into the cage he promised not to go in without dean. He broke that promise. 

It’s well established none of these guys communicate with the others when they want something. 

Well Sam did try to call at least. Not the best but he at least did try.

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ooh, I forgot about that. There was no more urgency to do that RIGHT NOW than for Dean to go through the rift.

...But, but an obviously evil woman told Sam he had to do it right now!! So of course he believed her. ; )  (It's like Sam's Achilles heel or something.)

[catrox14]

You know, I wonder if Dean made a deal with Billie or someone else that he would have to be Michael's vessel if this stuff doesn't work.

He seems to have some kind of certainty in that final scene of tonight's episode that suggests there is a fate he knows is waiting and he is doing all he can to avoid it. He didn't seem like he was just pissed about the moment. There is something going on behind Dean's eyes that tells me there is a whole other thing he knows about that he is absolutely not sharing. 

 

Actually, maybe he saw in one of those books that one of his deaths is when is related to being possessed by Michael.

Edited April 13, 2018 by catrox14

[SueB]

I'm deeply intrigued by the reaper sitting on their shoulder next week.  I liked Jensen's line reading "EVERYthing?" I know it's an easy joke but I love how that's such an obvious first thought for Dean.

And then they went and fueled my CRACKSHIP!!! The SS Samwitch (Samwena... what ever you wish to call it)>

Episode 13x19 Title: Funeralia

OFFICIAL SYNOPSIS:  ANGELS, WITCHES AND REAPERS, OH MY – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) must stop Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell), who is on a deadly mission. Meanwhile, Castiel (Misha Collins) looks to heaven to recruit angels for an impending invasion but is shocked by not only what he finds, but who. Nina Lopez-Corrado directed the episode written by Steve Yockey (#1319). Original airdate 4/19/2018.

Edited April 13, 2018 by SueB
Added episode description

[SueB]

Quote

 

Thursday, May 3

SUPERNATURAL 13.21 “Beat the Devil”: Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles), Castiel (Misha Collins) and Gabriel (guest star Richard Speight, Jr.) must work together if they have any hope of bringing Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and Jack (Alexander Calvert) home. Meanwhile, Rowena’s (guest star Ruth Connell) encounter with Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) may alter the outcome of the journey for one of our heroes. Phil Sgriccia directed the episode written by Robert Berens.

 

From TV Addict: http://www.thetvaddict.com/2018/04/12/the-cw-teasers-a-long-awaited-supernatural-reunion-gypsy-returns-to-the-flash-and-more/

[SueB]

Pondering next week based on this week..... 
I find it REALLY interesting about the Reaper Baby Monitor.  First off, WHY.  Why does Billie need to keep such close tabs on them that she has the reaper watching them 24x7.  Did the Reaper go into the AU w/ Dean or stay w/ Sam (I'm guessing stayed in the Bunker).  But again, WHY?  

From Advance Thanatology

Quote

Billie: Since I got this... new job, I stand witness to a much larger picture. Do you know what I see? You. And your brother. You're important.

Dean: Why?
Billie: You have work to do. That's all you need to know. And trust me, having my eyes opened to the necessity of any humans, especially Winchesters, is not a thrill. So... you wanna die, but I say... keep living.

And now she's got them a personal stalker.  And she's letting them know.  

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say BOTH Sam and Dean are near suicidal this year.  Their mother is in danger. Jack is in danger. And there's another FREAKIN' APOCALYPSE they have to prevent.  They've had their ups and downs, but the end of tonight's episode... pretty damn down.  Maybe that's why the Reaper appears.  Not to give them a pep talk but to be some evil smily "suck it up and live" message.  Because Billie hates needing them but I think she does.  So, that might be her style.  I don't think they'd address the depression directly.  And I'd be surprised if the Reaper said what they HAD to do. But I could see the Reaper reminding them that it's on them to do it.  And for Billie, that's kind of 'just deserts'.  Like, while she really wants them dead, she knows right now that living kinda sucks for them.  So she might rub their noses in it a bit.  IDK.... just spitballin'.  But the Reaper is popping up now for a reason... that's what I want to know.

And does she watch Rowena rip off Sam's shirt?  I'm just saying... 

Actually, I wonder if Rowena wants to somehow possess Sam and need to rip off the tattoo.  She's always been impressed by his size (I MEAN HIS HEIGHT).  Getting a Sam doll to do her bidding would be a good weapon to have.  .... Oh!  It just occurred to me!  Rowena wants to actively KILL LUCIFER.  Maybe she wants to put him in Sam's body for some reason first.  Like she can't do what she wants with him in the Nick suit so she's gotta find a different vessel.  

So look at that... those wondering about Sam being threatened to be Luci's vessel again.... Rowena could be trying to accomplish just that.  It won't work.  The episode descriptions for future episodes make that clear.  But, I think that might be it.

Edited April 13, 2018 by SueB

[Wayward Son]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The saddest thing about this season is that Dean is fighting so hard to save someone who doesn't want to be saved. 

Eh, it’s not just Dean working hard to save Mary everyone is working hard to save someone who doesn’t want to be saved. 

[companionenvy]

Now that we've established that Mary is a leader in the AU-rebellion, I'm hoping her unwillingness to leave doesn't come off as poorly as spoilers suggest. Looking at it from Mary's perspective, I actually can see how it would be really, really hard to leave people you've been fighting and dying with in a desperate situation to waltz through a portal into a better world. I don't think Sam and Dean would be able to do it, themselves, for anything short of saving a loved one on the other side. Even if only one of the brothers wound up there, and wanted desperately to get back to the other, I think either one would choose to stay. We just had Dean saying that if he had known he had no way of returning to AU-verse, he wouldn't have come back -- which would have meant never seeing Sam again. Dean was angry, and I'm not sure if he would actually have made that decision under these particular circumstances, when push came to shove, but it does suggest a willingness to sacrifice even your closest relationships -- like, I've died and gone to hell for you close -- out of a profound sense of duty. 

So, it depends whether they present it primarily as a self-actualization thing, or as a sacrifice. Spoilers don't sound great, but in theory, Mary could discuss feeling "right" in this world while still leaving the overall impression that she's staying out of a sense of obligation. Let's hope. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by companionenvy

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Eh, it’s not just Dean working hard to save Mary everyone is working hard to save someone who doesn’t want to be saved. 

I never said Sam and Cas weren't working alongside Dean.  I singled out Dean because I think its going to hit him the hardest since he has the closest (and I use this term losely) relationship with Mary.

[MysteryGuest]

I agree with Companionenvy as to how the Mary scenario will play out.  The writers need to find a good ending for her story, and having her stay in the AU is the perfect solution.  That way, if they ever want or need to, they can bring her back again.  I'm going to give the writers the benefit of the doubt here, and while I'm sure that Sam and Dean won't be happy with Mary's decision, they will at least understand it and respect her for it.  I don't see them ending her arc with her just rejecting her sons again.  They could prove me wrong, but I'm going to remain hopeful.  And she'll be staying with characters that we love...Bobby and Charlie.  Unless their plan is to keep the AU story going into next season, they're going to need to end it on a semi-positive note, IMO, or it would make it awkward for Sam, Dean and Cas to just walk away from it.  Michael will be gone, and our heroes (Mary, Bobby and Charlie) will remain to help rebuild a better world.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree with Companionenvy as to how the Mary scenario will play out.  The writers need to find a good ending for her story, and having her stay in the AU is the perfect solution.  That way, if they ever want or need to, they can bring her back again.  I'm going to give the writers the benefit of the doubt here, and while I'm sure that Sam and Dean won't be happy with Mary's decision, they will at least understand it and respect her for it.  I don't see them ending her arc with her just rejecting her sons again.  They could prove me wrong, but I'm going to remain hopeful.  And she'll be staying with characters that we love...Bobby and Charlie.  Unless their plan is to keep the AU story going into next season, they're going to need to end it on a semi-positive note, IMO, or it would make it awkward for Sam, Dean and Cas to just walk away from it.  Michael will be gone, and our heroes (Mary, Bobby and Charlie) will remain to help rebuild a better world.

I agree.  I think they foreshadowed Mary's choice with Charlie's choice.  And really, Mary's dialog write's itself:
Pretend Dialog:
Mary: Don't you see, I spent the last two years regretting how horrible I made your lives with my decision?  And you've tried to make it clear that it worked out for the best and you are okay with it.  And here I am in a universe where I didn't make the deal; and look how it's suffered because you boys weren't here to save it.  How can I leave knowing my choice is what damned this world?  It doesn't feel right.  It isn't what either one of you would do.  You'd stay and fight.
The Boys: Then we'll stay here with you.
Mary: You can't.  You know you can't.  You have to protect your world from *fill in the blank if there is a current threat*.  We both have work to do.  And this is NOT goodbye.  When we've turned the tide, I can come back.  We can find a way to get me back. But not yet.  

And Ketch's penance is to stay by Mary's side and protect her even if she won't forgive him.  

So, it's the right thing to do.  And neither Sam nor Dean are happy but they are comforted with Bobby, Charlie, and Ketch committed to protecting their Mom.  I think Ketch will have proved himself to Dean and Sam before the season is over.  And Ketch desperately needs a mission -- the boys are smart enough to see that.  

[Aeryn13]

Okay, with the recent episode, new episode summary and spoilers so far, I can build a more clear picture of how things might pan out. 

Next episode we have Rowena, surely referencing back to that convo she had with Sam about how scared they both are of Lucifer - don`t be guys, unless the scariest thing for you is a neverending pity party - and a Reaper being put on as watchdog, referencing back to Dean`s convo with Billie in Advanced Thanatology. 

Gabriel also will be back with a redemption story. That he is gonna work with them in the episode before (or maybe where) they open the rift again answers the question about archangel grace. He can give them a little bit again and voila. 

Now Rowena will do something that "alters the course for one of them". Normally I would say that would be Sam but with the actual spoiler of Dean turning into a different character, and Michael-chances are good right now, that should be him. If she is still all about getting Lucifer, she might think of Prime!Michael and let him out.

We know the guys are over there in episode 22 and at that point Dean still seems to be Dean. There is likely gonna be the confrontation with Mary. I dread this since Bucklemming certainly will make this into "Mary is right and either Dean/both are wrong and clingy". 

Jack is said to get too cocky with his powers and meet Lucifer. So maybe he does something that inadvertently paves the way for AU!Michael to invade. And either Lucifer goes over there or Jack crosses back over. 

I would say whatever happens with Dean might happen near the end of ep 22. Which, oh joy, a Bucklemming ep. Then again, Finale is Dabb so hardly better. 

For spec on the Finale itself, I still need a bit more to go on.  

[Wynne88]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Next episode we have Rowena, surely referencing back to that convo she had with Sam about how scared they both are of Lucifer - don`t be guys, unless the scariest thing for you is a neverending pity party

Isn't that the truth?  And to think that Lucifer used to convey enough menace that it was reasonable to think that being stuck with him in the cage would be truly hellish.

I wonder when Sam got his tattoo back?

[SueB]

13.18 pics

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-funeralia-description/174084/

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, SueB said:

13.18 pics

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-funeralia-description/174084/

Thanks for posting these. I'm going to post the ones from Spoiler TV just because I don't like giving clicks to KSite. ....for reasons.

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/03/supernatural-episode-1319-funeralia.html

I swear if they kill off Rowena again, I'll be pissed. It's absurd.

Edited April 14, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

So is Rowena going to attempt to summon Lucifer into Sam so she can kill him?

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So is Rowena going to attempt to summon Lucifer into Sam so she can kill him?

Hmm. That's possible. Or maybe she wants to possess Sam?

[ILoveReading]

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/13/2018 at 12:35 PM, Aeryn13 said:

Okay, with the recent episode, new episode summary and spoilers so far, I can build a more clear picture of how things might pan out. 

Next episode we have Rowena, surely referencing back to that convo she had with Sam about how scared they both are of Lucifer - don`t be guys, unless the scariest thing for you is a neverending pity party - and a Reaper being put on as watchdog, referencing back to Dean`s convo with Billie in Advanced Thanatology. 

Gabriel also will be back with a redemption story. That he is gonna work with them in the episode before (or maybe where) they open the rift again answers the question about archangel grace. He can give them a little bit again and voila. 

Now Rowena will do something that "alters the course for one of them". Normally I would say that would be Sam but with the actual spoiler of Dean turning into a different character, and Michael-chances are good right now, that should be him. If she is still all about getting Lucifer, she might think of Prime!Michael and let him out.

We know the guys are over there in episode 22 and at that point Dean still seems to be Dean. There is likely gonna be the confrontation with Mary. I dread this since Bucklemming certainly will make this into "Mary is right and either Dean/both are wrong and clingy". 

Jack is said to get too cocky with his powers and meet Lucifer. So maybe he does something that inadvertently paves the way for AU!Michael to invade. And either Lucifer goes over there or Jack crosses back over. 

I would say whatever happens with Dean might happen near the end of ep 22. Which, oh joy, a Bucklemming ep. Then again, Finale is Dabb so hardly better. 

For spec on the Finale itself, I still need a bit more to go on.  

All roads lead to Dean!Michael.

The smartest thing Rowena could do if She wants Lucifer dead is to sic his brother on him.  I see everything synching up for a Mexican quid pro quo between Dean, Michael and Rowena. They will all have something to offer and something they want. 

Really beautiful set-up.   Truly astonishing considering we are talking about Dabbler and Hacks.  I am convinced Carver is,on retainer as the fixer.  He ghost wrote Reichenbach and he is ghost writing tbis,damn beautiful set-uo for the Apocalypse 2.0, Dean!Michael and Dean's tragic flaw cocktail with heavy doses of mommy loss issues and self sacrifice.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/12/2018 at 9:44 PM, catrox14 said:

Oh it is. Jensen is a spoiling little shit.

Handcart to hell reference.  Line used before Sam, crowkey and Rowena let Kucifer out of rhe cage.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

He ghost wrote Reichenbach

I'm curious about this. What makes you think he ghost wrote Riechenbach? Which is one of my fave eps ever.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

and Dean's tragic flaw cocktail with heavy doses of mommy loss issues and self sacrifice.

Like I said before, I hate, with a passion of a thousand burning suns even the idea of Dean doing it in any way for Mary. And not just because I consider the character an ungrateful bitch now, though that doesn`t help. But I want Dean to have a freaking heroic set-up. And it is so easy. AU!Michael is planning an invasion, Dean can easily say yes to save the world. If it`s about Mary, it`s just pathetic and selfish and I`m so sick of reducing Dean to that.

So, I`m perfectly fine with self-sacrifice, just do it for a good reason. 

[Bobcatkitten]

This entire season has really been about saving Jack/Mary - not the basis of the show, which is usually saving people/world.

[Jonesy]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm curious about this. What makes you think he ghost wrote Riechenbach? Which is one of my fave eps ever.

He obviously didn't--she's swiping at Dabb and his crew...unfairly imo.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Jakes said:

He obviously didn't--she's swiping at Dabb and his crew...unfairly imo.

I've read elsewhere that manu writers on a staff  will help each other and not take credit. So, I'll be curious as to the answer. Riechenbach was the episode after Black and I can believe that Carver and Dabb did collaborate on those episodes.  So whether it's a swipe at Dabb or not I don't find it unreasonable to think Carver had a hand in it.

Especially since Carver was the showrunner at that time.

Edited April 15, 2018 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

20 hours ago, Jakes said:

He obviously didn't--she's swiping at Dabb and his crew...unfairly imo.

Reichenbach is one of my favorite episodes ever too and it references a couple of Carvers best episides including Mystery Spot.  It is just my opinion that the person that gave us Bloodlines is incapable of producing Reichenbach on his own.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is just my opinion that the person that gave us Bloodlines is incapable of producing Reichenbach on his own.

That might explain the Prisoner as well. 

[AwesomO4000]

Well, I also enjoyed "Inside Man," but I'm not sure that the sense of humor there would be explained by Carver at that point... he used to have it in the earlier seasons, but not so much later on. I also liked quite a bit of Dabb's season 5 stuff and some of season 6's with Loflin, and Dabb's season 8 episodes also were some of the very few that I didn't hate.

[Jonesy]

10 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Reichenbach is one of my favorite episodes ever too and it references a couple of Carvers best episides including Mystery Spot.  It is just my opinion that the person that gave us Bloodlines is incapable of producing Reichenbach on his own.

 

Nah Carver isn't going to write an episode of a show he is no longer on--especially uncredited.  At best, he may have given some advice...but that is still highly doubtful at best.  IMO Dabb is much better than you think and he's done a lot of good work beyond bloodlines.  Actually think last couple of years have been much good stuff under his watch.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Jakes

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Nah Carver isn't going to write an episode of a show he is no longer on--especially uncredited.  At best, he may have given some advice...but that is still highly doubtful at best.  IMO Dabb is much better than you think and he's done a lot of good work beyond bloodlines.  Actually think last couple of years have been much good stuff under his watch.

 Frequency was cancelled. Is he working on another project? I really don't know.  Bob Singer was listed as a consulting producer vs EP in s11 and was not on the closing title card which was only Carver. And that season was the transition from Carver to Dabb as showrunner. Currently Carver is still listed as an EP in the credits which is probably just  a contractual thing. That said, it's not impossible for him to be consulted from time to time.  IIRC, Kripke and Ben Edlund were still consulted after they formally left the show.

I will say, if they actually go with Dean having a palpable and legit mytharc with this other character he's going to play, I might be inclined to think Carver in involved since he's the only showrunner who gave Dean an extended supernatural mytharc thing with the MoC. As always the wild card here on the creative side is Bob Singer.

[SueB]

Taking responses to TPTB thread

[Jonesy]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Frequency was cancelled. Is he working on another project? I really don't know.  Bob Singer was listed as a consulting producer vs EP in s11 and was not on the closing title card which was only Carver. And that season was the transition from Carver to Dabb as showrunner. Currently Carver is still listed as an EP in the credits which is probably just  a contractual thing. That said, it's not impossible for him to be consulted from time to time.  IIRC, Kripke and Ben Edlund were still consulted after they formally left the show.

I will say, if they actually go with Dean having a palpable and legit mytharc with this other character he's going to play, I might be inclined to think Carver in involved since he's the only showrunner who gave Dean an extended supernatural mytharc thing with the MoC. As always the wild card here on the creative side is Bob Singer.

If Carver was involved he'd be credited.  I'm fine with peeps not liking Dabb--everyone has different opinions.  But imo if he does something you like once and a while, give the man some credit instead of thinking up some hidden reason.