Spoilers With Speculation

[companionenvy]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I honestly don't understand why a separate storyline with no connection whatsoever to the Winchesters or the rest of the show (which seems to be what you were saying with not wanting Cas to be a "cog in plot machinery" or a secondary role in a Winchester hunt) would help anything except giving more to the Cas fans.  Not being snarky, just really confused.  It seems to me that you want two separate shows:  one Winchester, one Cas, with occasional guest shots between them.

I don't want two different shows, and I don't think a hypothetical Cas plot would have zero connection to the Winchester's story (and, I realize now that I phrased it ambiguously, but I meant that I 'd be fine with Cas getting his own plots OR having a secondary role on a Winchester hunt - either would be fine). But once a universe starts expanding a bit, connections don't always have to be so direct. Many of the characters on Game of Thrones haven't met for years (or ever), but they aren't in two separate shows. The same was true, to a lesser extent, on Battlestar, where we might have an Adama-led military plot, Roslin and her political intrigue, and Baltar and Six psychodrama in the same episode, all relatively separate. 

To use the example of shows that have a clear lead or leads, as opposed to a genuine ensemble show like BSG, on Chuck, you might have Chuck dealing with spy drama while his friend Morgan dealt with a comic version of Chuck's predicament at the Best Buy-clone that served as Chuck's spy cover - and often in a way that unwittingly brought the store in danger from the actual bad guys.  On a far more serious show, the Americans, all of the characters are connected in that they are  tied to the world of espionage, but though the plots sometimes intersect in profound and obvious ways, there are plenty of important and emotionally resonant subplots that matter for reasons other than their direct effect on the lives of Philip and Elizabeth Jennings. 

Every show has to negotiate the role of supporting/ensemble cast somewhat differently. I guess what I'd like for Cas, specifically -- but also other characters, as appropriate -- would be for him to be allowed to be based in the bunker more consistently. That wouldn't mean he would go on every hunt with Sam and Dean, but there would be more diversity in the way he was used. We could occasionally follow him on a separate case that turned out to have a link to Sam and Dean's plot, or to the arc. Sometimes we could have a bigger group on a hunt -- as they did this year on the episode where they went after Ramiel, but in comparatively non-epic, MOW situations. And yeah, sometimes Cas could be away tracking Kelly Kline. But at this point, the show has to struggle to invent reasons to keep people like Cas and Mary offscreen, to the detriment of their characters. In Mary's case, I think a large part of the reason the character wound up being so poorly received is that in their fear of fundamental change, Dabb and co had to let her stay away far longer than was sympathetic or even logical. I maintain there were ways of integrating her and letting her spend more of the season living in the bunker and hunting with or in parallel to the boys without making it the Mary show, or even making her anything approaching a co-lead. 

But now it seems like real spoiler-ish discussion is resuming, so maybe we should stop or take this to another thread :)

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But now it seems like real spoiler-ish discussion is resuming, so maybe we should stop or take this to another thread :)

IA, either end or move elsewhere, though I'm not sure what other thread or if anyone else is interested :)  Or you can PM me if you want to continue (I'm always up for a good discussion!)

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

IA, either end or move elsewhere, though I'm not sure what other thread or if anyone else is interested :)  Or you can PM me if you want to continue (I'm always up for a good discussion!)

I only have one comment on the subject, so I'll be quick. I think the show did successfully do this at least once - or at least for me it was successful - and that was in season 6. Even though it was more behind the scenes, there were some actual scenes also where Castiel and Crowley had their own plot that was fleshed out, and it didn't entirely intersect with Sam and Dean directly until the end of the season. There was a semi-association through Grandpa Samuel, but the actual plot to get the souls out of purgatory was a Crowley/Castiel thing... Sam and Dean didn't know or want to get the souls out. They had their own plots with Sam being soulless and dealing with the unexpected consequences of Castiel and Crowley's plot (Eve).

If the show could do something like that again, except with showing more of the machinations of the other plot - rather than it happening offscreen - I think it could be done. There wouldn't be as much of a surprise - like we got when we found out that Crowley was still alive and working with Castiel (I was completely surprised), but it would be a way to have a secondary plot in the show that would eventually be related to Sam and Dean.

[SueB]

I would encourage "All Seasons" for the discussion as it's a non-spoiler retrospective combined with thoughts on show format  (JMO)

Under the category of "what WERE they doing?", a few days ago, the writers all were on twitter.  It was a funny discussion with absolutely NO CONTEXT.  But it went along the lines of 

And the thread went back and forth.  I don't know if anyone knows the Transformers enough to translate? Dabb got in the thread on it saying "Season 13 is going to be so great...so great." Which kind of ended the chatter and they went back to work.

Yes, I stalk the writers on twitter.  Here's what I know.  Bobo gave up coffee (don't know if he's had a relapse), most others are clinging to it as the substance of life.  They seem to be really cranking out the work, in the office together, as a team.  So... I would expect some real news at SDCC.  And I wonder when they will have the dialog with the boys about where they are headed... cause I think they are full steam ahead right now.

[Pondlass1]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

s the most serious talk I've seen them have about ending the show.

I watched both panels last night - the Js are talking end game out loud.  There's always been joking about the show going on forever, but not this time.  I'll bet they've put their managers on alert and preparing themselves for something they haven't done in a long while - audition.  This time next year  both could be out of work.   Although it'd be a shame not to take it to 300.  I think the show's owed that - but this is business and if s13 ratings continue to plummet well.....

20 hours ago, Jakes said:

don't mind an A plot and B plot from time to time

A lot of what's wrong - for me anyway - with A plots and B plots is the editing.  Lots of shows are guilty of this... they break away to B plot just when A plot is getting juicy.   I guess they think it's suspenseful - it's not, it's annoying.   I don't know which was the A or B plot in the penultimate episode but I didn't appreciate Dean's heartfelt "I hate you" scene being constantly interrupted by the Hunters vs. BMOL gunfight.  The editing is sometimes as guilty as the writing.  

[Pondlass1]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

They seem to be really cranking out the work, in the office togethe

I wonder.... do they write in an actual writers' room over the summer hiatus?  This is the only time they network I think. Whatever we get in episodes up to Christmas break hasn't been tested in the ratings/audience  waters yet.  So they're flying blind.  This was obvious in season 8's - Samelia versus Purgatory.   Samelia was dropped like a hot tamale once reaction came in.  (Benny got invited to conventions,  Amelia was never mentioned ever again.)

I hope they drink water and eat salads in that writing room. No smoking funny stuff.  This could be the final season dammit!

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I watched both panels last night - the Js are talking end game out loud.  There's always been joking about the show going on forever, but not this time.  I'll bet they've put their managers on alert and preparing themselves for something they haven't done in a long while - audition.  This time next year  both could be out of work.   Although it'd be a shame not to take it to 300.  I think the show's owed that - but this is business and if s13 ratings continue to plummet well.....

A lot of what's wrong - for me anyway - with A plots and B plots is the editing.  Lots of shows are guilty of this... they break away to B plot just when A plot is getting juicy.   I guess they think it's suspenseful - it's not, it's annoying.   I don't know which was the A or B plot in the penultimate episode but I didn't appreciate Dean's heartfelt "I hate you" scene being constantly interrupted by the Hunters vs. BMOL gunfight.  The editing is sometimes as guilty as the writing.  

The ratings are lower but not plummeting at all--just a normal seasonal drop.  In fact of all the CW shows SPN has had either the lowest or second lowest drop in seasonal ratings this year.  It's doing well for the CW...no way the show stops at 13.  And also the finale ratings I believe only Flash was higher in the CW and maybe Super Girl...though I think SPN edged it--damn impressive for a show in its 12th season.  Now 14 may be different because the J's seem to be hinting at stopping themselves soon.  With the plots...some episodes pull off both well, some don't.  They need to tighten and sharpen it up some.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Jakes

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I watched both panels last night - the Js are talking end game out loud.  There's always been joking about the show going on forever, but not this time.  I'll bet they've put their managers on alert and preparing themselves for something they haven't done in a long while - audition.  This time next year  both could be out of work.   Although it'd be a shame not to take it to 300.  I think the show's owed that - but this is business and if s13 ratings continue to plummet well.....

A lot of what's wrong - for me anyway - with A plots and B plots is the editing.  Lots of shows are guilty of this... they break away to B plot just when A plot is getting juicy.   I guess they think it's suspenseful - it's not, it's annoying.   I don't know which was the A or B plot in the penultimate episode but I didn't appreciate Dean's heartfelt "I hate you" scene being constantly interrupted by the Hunters vs. BMOL gunfight.  The editing is sometimes as guilty as the writing.  

The editing of that scene is what told me it was more about Sam than Dean. I don't think it was to amp the action or relieve the tension as much as it was to show the audience through Dean's words all the suffering Sam experienced from birth to present as he ascended to leadership.

If they could have gotten away with it I swear they would have faded from baby Sam's face into Leader Sam a la Game of Thrones.

They did the  same thing to the even  a more impressive Dean talking to himself in Regarding Dean. There should have been NO edits in that scene. I understand they want balance but they need dramatic tension more than balance. They could have placed that entire Sam and Rowena conversation before the mirror scene. I think the audience is smart enough to get those things were happening simultaneously.

Edited June 13, 2017 by catrox14

[Jonesy]

16 hours ago, SueB said:

Just watched the two panels from PHXCON.  Future speculation thoughts:
- I think Jared WAS testing the waters with "300".  It was an awkward silence after that from the audience.  So I don't think he got positive feedback for that as an ending point.  OTOH, I think the boys ARE coming to realize that they MAY have to make the decision themselves.
- When you have 12 and 13 year olds asking questions, you KNOW you have a generational show. And I think that while they experience young people all the time, the are now at the "age" of the show that the kids as old as the show are asking real questions.  And that's gotta be a little freaky.  And it may make them feel old as well.   Which could factor into the "how long do we go" decision.
- I was a little surprised at how relatively cavalier they were about the "death" of Cas and Crowley. WE know, they know, Misha is coming back.  And they really may NOT know about Mark putting the kabosh on the 'never say never' spin.  Dudes are busy.  They may not follow SM that much on hiatus.  When compared to the death of Charlie, they are very laid back about it.  To me, they seem comfortable with both Crowley and Cas' fate. But they seemed pretty 'whatever happens happens' regarding story line. They WANT to know, but I don't sense any specific lobbying**.
- It's important to remember that they have a contract for S13 but not yet for S14 (which they NEED for 300 eps). The last two or three contract renews have been for two years at a time.  And they also seem to have 'locked in' what they are going to do regarding contracts in the December, early January timeframe BEFORE the end or the season (based on past events).  So... where are they NOW in the decision making:
1) I think they are on hiatus with expanded families and the 'how much longer' is a natural question.  Where they sit and talk about the future with their wives.  Once the season starts, there's less time for these kind of meaty conversations.  I suspect "as long as they let us" may not be a given anymore.  
2) How the 'current' season is going is known by early December.  Usually there's an initial pulse taken after the first three or four episodes.  Then there's sweeps in November.  So, by early December, they will know if the audience 'accepts' the S13 direction (including the S12 fallout), or if there's an unsustainable decline.  While I think Mark had a TON of fans, Crowley has been an antagonist and thus always at risk for death IMO.  Cas, OTOH, is very a beloved protagonist and some may say "enough" just based on finale.  Others will wait till the 'fallout' is evident.  If it's AU!Cas, that's just as 'dead' for some fans as if Misha were gone (and they may find it even MORE insulting).    And then there's the "I'm there if Misha is" crowd.  Which brings me to...
3) The rest of the cast & crew.  If the boys are ready to leave, they'll leave.  If they are debating internally, they may factor in if it's a good time for their 'work family' to end.  
4) Money.  As Jared said, the money is important but not THE driver.  However, if they want a specific outcome financially, this may drive how they approach the next contract negotiations.  
5) What the production company and Network want versus what THEY want.  Jensen SPECIFICALLY mentioned episode count.  NCIS has 24 episodes/season. Arrow has 23. Designated Survivor, a brand new drama, has 21. Would they offer a SINGLE-season-12-episode-ONLY deal (in order to reach 300 and ONLY 300)?  IF they were to do that, the boys would have had to ask for that in the first place.  That would be a little harder to get approvals for.  J2 are beloved but that's quite an exceptional contract, even for the stars IMO.  And neither the network NOR the production company would get the benefit of the "final season" advertising like they did with Smallville. Would they go for something more creative? Like scale back to 13 episode seasons for 2 years?  Or a 12 episode season with a later mini-series.  IDK.  Just, a single season for 12 seems less likely.  The network/studio have something the boys 'want' (getting to 300).  The boys have something the network wants (a steady show).  BOTH could walk away and not be heartbroken if no S14 deal is reached.  BUT both would try for it (I believe).  Finally, it's entirely possible they sign up for a S14/S15.  

 

We will KNOW, IMO,  in January.  If I was to bet, I'd bet on them negotiating either:
1) A one year, short order season because the ratings are down.
2) A two year deal with less episodes so they can have more family time - presuming ratings are stable enough. And "less episodes" might be 19 or 20.  JUST enough to get a larger break mid-season or in hiatus. Conversely two 13 episodes seasons is a handy number too.  

 

**The 'favorite' season question was interesting.  Jared was leaning towards 5.  Jensen said 4 and 9.  BOTH makes sense IMO from first a Sam and then a Dean story line. But I really enjoyed Jensen's question when a fan yelled out "S2, bitches!": "Does this mean we've been disappointing you for a DECADE?"   

Yes I watched them--along with Misha's panel.  My take is that Jared was talking seriously about 300 being the end and the serious way he brought it up had the audience in mostly stunned disappointment.  Jensen responding that we have been around for more than 2 shows worth was sort of saying in a joking way that guys give us a break and don't be mad if we stop relatively soon.  I THINK 14 IS THE END--probably half a season or maybe a full one.  And with Misha's panel the whole sequence of him talking about AU Cas and leaks and rumors...the more I watch it the more Misha between making a witty joke take on Trump's obsession with leaks he circles back to saying don't take the AU Cas seriously.  He's been consistent in a couple statements we are getting real Cas back.  I know some have doubts but imo it's pretty clear--but we'll see in the end.  And also I think it's convenient that Jack who has the power to raise Cas and has a connection to him is right there--just like the Red Witch was right there for the dead Jon Snow in GOT. 

[DittyDotDot]

I've long ago stopped trying to decide when this show will stop--I was sure S10 would be and then was sure S11 would be; was quite surprised it got renewed for S12, TBH--but I definitely don't think 13 will be the last. I think they'll do an announcement of their final season long before the season starts.

Plus, I think they may have Jared and Jensen under contract through S14. They've been doing two-year contracts since S6 and I know for a fact they signed on through S10 at the start of S8. So, if they've signed two-year contracts since then, they would've signed on for S13 and S14 together.

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, Jakes said:

The ratings are lower but not plummeting at all--just a normal seasonal drop.  In fact of all the CW shows SPN has had either the lowest or second lowest drop in seasonal ratings this year.  It's doing well for the CW...no way the show stops at 13.  And also the finale ratings I believe only Flash was higher in the CW and maybe Super Girl...though I think SPN edged it--damn impressive for a show in its 12th season.  Now 14 may be different because the J's seem to be hinting at stopping themselves soon.  With the plots...some episodes pull off both well, some don't.  They need to tighten and sharpen it up some.

SPN finished 5th in the overall ratings for the CW for the season. They were beaten by all the DC shows. So on one hand that is good because it finished better than all the other non-DC shows and it's still holding it's own with the DC shows. Unfortunately, it's still 5th and they dropped 14% over last season. Yes all the CW shows dropped and SPN's dropped the least of the top 5.  Supergirl's drop is likely because of the move from CBS to the CW. The upside for SPN is the big gap between the top 5 and the next highest rated which is the pet show, Riverdale

So yes, they are holding their own but if they continue to fall in s13, that won't bode well.

http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/cw-2016-17-season-ratings/

Sorry I couldn't get the formatting to work, so I put the slash between the demo and viewers to differentiate. You can see the chart by clicking on the link above.

 

Quote

 

The demo change is first /the number of viewers change is 2nd

 1. The Flash (renewed)1.06 -22.66% /2.840 -19.58%

2 Supergirl (renewed)0.73 -56.82%/ 2.356 -69.34%

3 DC's Legends of Tom. (renewed) 0.64 -20.37% / 1.810 -16.50%

4 Arrow (renewed) 0.62 -34.46% 1.755  -29.48%

 5 Supernatural (renewed) 0.60  -14.60%/ 1.675  -5.61%

Edited June 13, 2017 by catrox14

[Jonesy]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

SPN finished 5th in the overall ratings for the CW for the season. They were beaten by all the DC shows. So on one hand that is good because it finished better than all the other non-DC shows and it's still holding it's own with those. Unfortunately, it's still 5th and they dropped 14% over last season. Yes all the CW shows dropped.  Supergirl's drop is likely because of the move from CBS to the CW. The upside is the big gap between the top 5 and the next highest rated which is the pet show, Riverdale

So yes, they are holding their own but if they continue to fall in s13, that won't bode well.

http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/cw-2016-17-season-ratings/

I say 5th for a 12th season is rather amazing and it was in a virtual tie with 3 and 4--all without the artificial boosts they got from the crossover episodes with Flash.  And it did drop the least--which is impressive.  So if it falls at the same rate it would probably gain on 3 and 4.  No sign that it's falling fast at all and the finale raise was impressive which went above Arrow, LOT I believe and I think it even edged Super Girl.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

No sign that it's falling fast at all and the finale raise was impressive which went above Arrow, LOT I believe and I think it even edged Super Girl.

I never said it was a sign that it was falling fast. Those weren't my words, I was just bringing over the numbers for the sake of discussion.

It's great that the season finale did okay in the ratings. It really depends on how much more expensive the show becomes to produce. There are salaries to be paid. I can't imagine j2 are not getting raises or negotiating for more time off in lieu of more money, which that won't really help with those that want more Dean and Sam than has been of late.

Despite the ratings for the finale being better than the season average, a lot of fans were pissed and are still pissed about Castiel and Crowley. Fans seem to have accepted that Crowley is not returning. Castiel being really most sincerely dead and replaced by some other Cas that has no resemblence in personality to our Cas at all, probably not gonna fly for too long, maybe 10 episodes. 

That said,  personally, I would accept a 2014Future!-style Cas because he was great and IMO was basically OUR!Cas but jaded. Just like Future!Dean was OUR Dean but even more jaded and hardened.  And our!Dean seemed to accept 2014!Cas and was quite defensive and protective towards him,  and angry with his own future self for putting 2014!Cas in harms way. So...yes, I would be okay with something like that. I don't think we can have a naive s9 human Cas again because he's learned a lot in those 3 years. 

I'm still holding out hope for an AU!Dean to show up because I think it is possible that only Sam was not born in the AU for reasons I've already laid out, JMHO.  So maybe an AU!Dean and an AU!Cas already know each other and are BFFs in the AU. I would actually enjoy that for a bit.  Not forever. But for awhile.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm still holding out hope for an AU!Dean to show up because I think it is possible that only Sam was not born in the AU for reasons I've already laid out, 

You mean an AU!Dean not born of John and Mary Winchester? Because if so, you could just as easily have an AU!Sam. They just wouldn`t be AU characters to me if they are that far removed.

Since I`m one of the people who thought Cas was talking about both when he said "this is a world you never saved", I would be very displeased to see an AU!Dean over there because it would make it clear that world-saviour mantle only goes to Sam. Heck, I would be fucking livid. So, for me, they can bring in whatever AU characters they want, just not Dean or Sam.     

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You mean an AU!Dean not born of John and Mary Winchester? Because if so, you could just as easily have an AU!Sam. They just wouldn`t be AU characters to me if they are that far removed.

No, I mean an AU!Dean born of Mary and John. Like I've said before my UO is that only AU!Sam was never born and  Mary could have raised an AU!Dean and they parted ways for reasons. Maybe an AU!Dean and AU!Mary were separated by the war and AU!Mary thought he was dead so she never spoke of him. 

I would even be on board an AU!Dean Campbell(Winchester) who decided to fight with the angels against the demons instead of fighting both of them. It could be a flip around of Cas choosing humanity/Dean over the angels. Like maybe Dean was raised to think all the worst possible things about angels but meets an AU!Castiel who was different than the other dick angels in the AU. So he chooses to help the angels because he thinks it's the best way to end the war. 

I feel plot bunnies......

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No, I mean an AU!Dean born of Mary and John. Like I've said before my UO is that only AU!Sam was never born and  Mary could have raised an AU!Dean and they parted ways for reasons. Maybe an AU!Dean and AU!Mary were separated by the war and AU!Mary thought he was dead so she never spoke of him. 

I would even be on board an AU!Dean Campbell(Winchester) who decided to fight with the angels against the demons instead of fighting both of them. It could be a flip around of Cas choosing humanity/Dean over the angels. Like maybe Dean was raised to think all the worst possible things about angels but meets an AU!Castiel who was different than the other dick angels in the AU. So he chooses to help the angels because he thinks it's the best way to end the war. 

I feel plot bunnies......

While I do think Cas was talking to Sam with the 'you' were never born/saved the world bit (grrrr), I don't think either of the boys exist in Doom!World. Basing that on Bobby's recollection of Mary and her 'lost love', John Winchester. Given that they introduce themselves as Sam & Dean Winchester, and Bobby says the only Winchester he ever heard of was John...  Unless Mary was pregnant when John died and they never married, and then she raised him as Dean Campbell? Or she had both kids before he died, but never gave them his name?  I don't see that happening, and don't anticipate an AU!Dean or Sam.

Edited June 13, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Unless Mary was pregnant when John died and they never married, and then she raised him as Dean Campbell? Or she had both kids before he died, but never gave them his name?  I don't see that happening, and don't anticipate an AU!Dean or Sam.

I've postulated before that an AU!Mary could have been pregnant with an AU!Dean before an AU!John died. They didn't have to married in the AU. I've laid out the timeline of how that could work in the AU in a couple of other posts upthread that I won't rehash here.  I realize I'm out here on this island alone. I'm fine with that. I'm not stating that is WHAT IS going to happen but it is an AU so anything is possible hence my speculation. YMMV :)

[Jonesy]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I never said it was a sign that it was falling fast. Those weren't my words, I was just bringing over the numbers for the sake of discussion.

It's great that the season finale did okay in the ratings. It really depends on how much more expensive the show becomes to produce. There are salaries to be paid. I can't imagine j2 are not getting raises or negotiating for more time off in lieu of more money, which that won't really help with those that want more Dean and Sam than has been of late.

Despite the ratings for the finale being better than the season average, a lot of fans were pissed and are still pissed about Castiel and Crowley. Fans seem to have accepted that Crowley is not returning. Castiel being really most sincerely dead and replaced by some other Cas that has no resemblence in personality to our Cas at all, probably not gonna fly for too long, maybe 10 episodes. 

That said,  personally, I would accept a 2014Future!-style Cas because he was great and IMO was basically OUR!Cas but jaded. Just like Future!Dean was OUR Dean but even more jaded and hardened.  And our!Dean seemed to accept 2014!Cas and was quite defensive and protective towards him,  and angry with his own future self for putting 2014!Cas in harms way. So...yes, I would be okay with something like that. I don't think we can have a naive s9 human Cas again because he's learned a lot in those 3 years. 

I'm still holding out hope for an AU!Dean to show up because I think it is possible that only Sam was not born in the AU for reasons I've already laid out, JMHO.  So maybe an AU!Dean and an AU!Cas already know each other and are BFFs in the AU. I would actually enjoy that for a bit.  Not forever. But for awhile.

The show is safe thru season 14 for sure unless it falls greatly...which is very doubtful imo--no sign of that.  And I think 14 is probably it anyway.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I've postulated before that an AU!Mary could have been pregnant with an AU!Dean before an AU!John died. They didn't have to married in the AU. I've laid out the timeline of how that could work in the AU in a couple of other posts upthread that I won't rehash here.  I realize I'm out here on this island alone. I'm fine with that. I'm not stating that is WHAT IS going to happen but it is an AU so anything is possible hence my speculation. YMMV :)

Don't you think AU!Bobby would've twigged to that though? Given he seemed to know Mary pretty well in the Doom!World, and this stranger he just met looks just like her son and is named Dean Winchester? Even if AU Dean  was Dean Campbell, the name Winchester would bring an association along with it.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Don't you think AU!Bobby would've twigged to that though? Given he seemed to know Mary pretty well in the Doom!World, and this stranger he just met looks just like her son and is named Dean Winchester? Even if AU Dean  was Dean Campbell, the name Winchester would bring an association along with it.

No. I didn't get the sense that AU!Bobby knew Mary all that well at all. IMO, "running" with someone doesn't necessarily mean you know everything about them. Plus maybe AU!Bobby's memory isn't great. I don't see any reason to put all the stock into what an AU!Bobby might know or not know based on that little bit of information. Maybe Mary had secrets...she had them in our universe. Also, AU!Bobby doesn't know any of the people he's talking to. Maybe he's lying.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

No. I didn't get the sense that AU!Bobby knew Mary all that well at all. IMO, "running" with someone doesn't necessarily mean you know everything about them. Plus maybe AU!Bobby's memory isn't great. I don't see any reason to put all the stock into what an AU!Bobby might know or not know based on that little bit of information. Maybe Mary had secrets...she had them in our universe. Also, AU!Bobby doesn't know any of the people he's talking to. Maybe he's lying.

He trusted them enough to hand over his weapon and angel killing bullets to Dean though. I just don't think there wouldn't have been any kind of recognition, unless Mary gave him (and/or him and Sam) up for adoption and neither of them ended up in the life. You never know though - they've certainly pulled stranger things out of their butts though, lol. See: The Darkness is God's sister.

[Whimsy]

As a reminder, this is the Spoilers with Speculation thread.  This thread has gone way off-topic. Any future off-topic posts will be deleted without warning. 

[gonzosgirrl]

With the caveat that Creation isn't officially tied to SPN, and of course they include lots of guests who are no longer with, or minimally with, the show, for me, this seems like a pretty good indication that Mark P/Lucifer is going to be an ongoing part of S13. They have replaced Mark S's name in the 'big 4' with Mark P's. This from an email for VegasCon 2018.

 

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

With the caveat that Creation isn't officially tied to SPN, and of course they include lots of guests who are no longer with, or minimally with, the show, for me, this seems like a pretty good indication that Mark P/Lucifer is going to be an ongoing part of S13. They have replaced Mark S's name in the 'big 4' with Mark P's. This from an email for VegasCon 2018.

 

With the caveat you mention in mind, that comes across to me as a strong indication that Mark Pellegrino has maintained the series regular status for next year! 

[catrox14]

. 

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

With the caveat you mention in mind, that comes across to me as a strong indication that Mark Pellegrino has maintained the series regular status for next year!

 

Maybe we've all been wrong and Mark P will get the spinoff in the AU with Mary.  I am just so sick of Lucifer. Yuck, Yuck, Yuck

Edited June 14, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

. 

 

Maybe we've all been wrong and Mark P will get the spinoff in the AU with Mary.  I am just so sick of Lucifer. Yuck, Yuck, Yuck

Double yuck, with a side of bleh, sprinkled generously with grated Goddamnit.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Double yuck, with a side of bleh, sprinkled generously with grated Goddamnit.

And dollop of hork

[MysteryGuest]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Double yuck, with a side of bleh, sprinkled generously with grated Goddamnit.

 

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And dollop of hork

Seriously!!!  I just can't understand how Dabb and Co. can think that Crowley's story is boring and over, but Lucifer's is just one scintillating scene after another?  The reason Crowley became boring is because they had him interacting with fucking Lucifer for the past two seasons!!   I can't tell you just how much I hate this.

[catrox14]

According to Jason Manns instagram, Mark P is recording a song for his latest compilation album. I don't know if that is a sign that he's going to be a series regular but it's a sign of something....

[MysteryGuest]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

According to Jason Manns instagram, Mark P is recording a song for his latest compilation album. I don't know if that is a sign that he's going to be a series regular but it's a sign of something....

I have no doubt that he will be, because it's the worst thing I can imagine.  I really wonder what Jensen and Jared think about the focus on Lucifer?  Maybe it's just one more thing that is helping them make their decision to pick an end date for themselves.

[ZennyKenny]

The introduction to the idea that SPN can exist in other universes, made possible by the existence of the upcoming Scooby-Doo crossover, makes me really really really really REALLY want Bruce Campbell to guest star in an SPN episode. Or for the Winchesters to show up on Ash Vs. Evil Dead. Either one; I'm not picky.

I mean COME ON, can't you just picture Ash & Dean hitting it off? Having a blast going crazy on some poor demons, hitting on girls at a bar, swapping war stories?

ASH: "... heh, you think that's impressive? I had to chop off my own hand because it was possessed."

DEAN: "I killed Hitler."

ASH:

ASH:

ASH: "Groovy."

[catrox14]

If Dean doesn't get stoned with Shaggy something is wrong

[ZennyKenny]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

If Dean doesn't get stoned with Shaggy something is wrong

OMG that NEEDS to happen!

[ZennyKenny]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

With the caveat that Creation isn't officially tied to SPN, and of course they include lots of guests who are no longer with, or minimally with, the show, for me, this seems like a pretty good indication that Mark P/Lucifer is going to be an ongoing part of S13. They have replaced Mark S's name in the 'big 4' with Mark P's. This from an email for VegasCon 2018.

 

Aaaaaaaaand my headache is back. Are you happy SPN showrunners? I finally had gotten rid of my headache, and now this news has brought it back. Are they serious with this bs? Are there legions of Lucifer fans out there somewhere? Are they ninjas, because I haven't seen any.

And this is coming from a self-professed Lucifer fan. I LOVE Lucifer. In small doses. SMALL doses.

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but was it Mark Sheppard's decision to quit SPN? Because I just can't see how any sane person would decide to replace Crowley with Lucifer, unless their hands were tied.

[DittyDotDot]

To be fair, the cons are are independent of the show. I don't think this means what everyone is suggesting, sounds like Sheppard had a falling out with Creation, to me. He already stated he's not doing Creation cons in 2018...this email was for Vegas 2018. They're just trying to promote their event with the guests they have. I have no idea how popular Pelligrino's panels are, but his appearances aren't very regular at these things, so I can see why they added his name to the top of the list. It's called marketing, folks. ::shrugs::

As to the show, I'm not convinced they have replaced Lucifer with Crowley or that they think he's more interesting than Crowley. We still don't even have any confirmation that Pelligrino is coming back next year yet or in what capacity. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

I believe Lucifer is gonna be a fixture next Season. Maybe not right away but definitely later on. They had the best kind of out for the character in Season 11. Amara was more than powerful enough to destroy him permanently. They didn`t take it. Again, they had another possibility to at least table the character for the foreseeable future/rest of the show by sending him back to the cage mid-Season. Didn`t take it. But made him integral to one of the plots instead. Their last opportunity was stranding him in AU world. Well, since they stranded Mary there with, it was clear the issue would be revisited.

They have proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that they have a hard-on for the character and want him around. And in more than small doses.   

Quote

Are they serious with this bs? Are there legions of Lucifer fans out there somewhere? Are they ninjas, because I haven't seen any.

Since I have never seen Singer give that much of a crap about him previously, maybe Dabb is the secret ninja you seek. Or it is the Nepotism Duo with their obsession in making him the first born yadda yadda.

[Pondlass1]

Season 12 - light bulb over Dabb's head lit up and we got BMOL.  Season 13 - same light bulb but now it's Sprout (or whatever we've named it).  So Sprout & Dad are probably the focus (till Christmas anyway).

MP is a good actor.   I don't think he's the shenanigans type, tho.  Has he ever been in a gag reel segment?  

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

To be fair, the cons are are independent of the show. I don't think this means what everyone is suggesting, sounds like Sheppard had a falling out with Creation, to me. He already stated he's not doing Creation cons in 2018...this email was for Vegas 2018. They're just trying to promote their event with the guests they have. I have no idea how popular Pelligrino's panels are, but his appearances aren't very regular at these things, so I can see why they added his name to the top of the list. It's called marketing, folks. ::shrugs::

As to the show, I'm not convinced they have replaced Lucifer with Crowley or that they think he's more interesting than Crowley. We still don't even have any confirmation that Pelligrino is coming back next year yet or in what capacity. 

That's why I started the post off with the caveat. That said though, all of Creations promos in the past  (or since I've been involved in the cons anyway) have listed the big four, Jensen, Jared, Misha and Mark, and then whoever else is attending. I've never seen them include anyone else in that first group, not even JDM who is a bigger star than Mark P. If they had just listed J2M and then the rest, it wouldn't have pinged my radar - but this seems telling to me. Clearly that's just my inference and speculation though, no facts implied or intended.

[Jonesy]

Count me as one who likes Mark Pelligrino and Lucifer--and if they write for Mark well then he'll deliver the goods.  I also think he'll be a regular along with J2M.

[SueB]

I'm not thrill with swapping Pelligrino for Shepard. Not by a long shot.  Pelligrino is great in small doses, but too much Lucifer makes him too familiar.  Now that he finally has his mojo back, I want him boxed up or only a THREAT of return.  

[catrox14]

I understand why you are speculating as you are @gonzosgirrl . It's not an illogical speculation. There is a reason that MP is being listed that way.  Mark S has confirmed he's doing 10 more cons for this season until his con contract is over. So they could have still listed it as J2M2 as they always did despite him no longer being with the show. I understand where you are coming from.

Some new spoilers would be fun right about now....

Sigh..

[Jonesy]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understand why you are speculating as you are @gonzosgirrl . It's not an illogical speculation. There is a reason that MP is being listed that way.  Mark S has confirmed he's doing 10 more cons for this season until his con contract is over. So they could have still listed it as J2M2 as they always did despite him no longer being with the show. I understand where you are coming from.

Some new spoilers would be fun right about now....

Sigh..

Unfortunately we might be barren with respect to spoilers for the next month--then in the middle of July we have the next Con and right after that...SDCC.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm not thrill with swapping Pelligrino for Shepard. Not by a long shot.  Pelligrino is great in small doses, but too much Lucifer makes him too familiar.  Now that he finally has his mojo back, I want him boxed up or only a THREAT of return.  

The threat of the return is feels meaningless now too. He's no longer an interesting villain. IMO. He became a cliche when they decided that he needed red eyes.  You know who else has red eyes...Lucifer on Fox.

I really think the SPN PTB feel like because Lucifer on Fox is popular they decided to change our Lucifer and IMO it makes him look like a buffoon. I don 't know WHY they gave Lucifer red eyes in the first place. He's not a demon. He's an archangel with blue grace like all the other angels. Like I understood the red, white and black eyes for demons because I always thought the eye color of demons was a result of their smoky form. It also made sense when the demons went into people through their eyes.  I wish they still did that because that was way more creepy IMO then going through the mouth.

It never made sense to me that demon!Dean had black eyes because Cain didn't show black eyes, since they were both their own meatsuits. Obviously, they did it solely for the visual gotcha moment in 9.23 but IMO it would have been a lot more interesting for Dean to have not been revealed to have been a demon at all until the premiere of s10 and then have Sam only learn Dean was a demon by seeing Dean's powers and that Dean's behavior had changed not because he had black eyes. 

Mark P can make Lucifer scary but IMO the show already broke Lucifer by turning him into a whiny brat with red glowing eyes. So given the red eyes on Lucifer for the past seasons what else are they going to change about Lucifer going forward? He's lost what made him interesting IMO. I don't know what they can do to make him interesting again, but they could start by dumping the stupid red glowy eyes. 

[ZennyKenny]

If they MUST bring back Lucifer AGAIN, I'd really like them to tweak his personality to actually be menacing again. When he screamed at Daaga or whatever her name was for losing his son, that legit made me jump. I wasn't expecting that because I'd gotten so used to Lucifer being this overly-playful, whiny brat who was basically harmless. "Parody Lucifer", I call him. So to me, a guy who is playful but also is easily-angered and has the power to back up his rage can be a truly scary character.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

When he screamed at Daaga or whatever her name was for losing his son, that legit made me jump.

The last time I thought Lucifer was really scary was when he was in the Cage and threatening Sam and said " I could inflict pain like you can’t even imagine. I could inflict such delicious perfect pain." It worked because Sam obviously remembered his own torture at Lucifer's hands and IMO it implied that maybe Lucifer didn't really do everything he could have to Sam. That was truly terrifying IMO.

So I think if they brought back that kind of evil, I could tolerate him in small well placed doses.

Edited June 15, 2017 by catrox14

[Jonesy]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The threat of the return is feels meaningless now too. He's no longer an interesting villain. IMO. He became a cliche when they decided that he needed red eyes.  You know who else has red eyes...Lucifer on Fox.

I really think the SPN PTB feel like because Lucifer on Fox is popular they decided to change our Lucifer and IMO it makes him look like a buffoon. I don 't know WHY they gave Lucifer red eyes in the first place. He's not a demon. He's an archangel with blue grace like all the other angels. Like I understood the red, white and black eyes for demons because I always thought the eye color of demons was a result of their smoky form. It also made sense when the demons went into people through their eyes.  I wish they still did that because that was way more creepy IMO then going through the mouth.

It never made sense to me that demon!Dean had black eyes because Cain didn't show black eyes, since they were both their own meatsuits. Obviously, they did it solely for the visual gotcha moment in 9.23 but IMO it would have been a lot more interesting for Dean to have not been revealed to have been a demon at all until the premiere of s10 and then have Sam only learn Dean was a demon by seeing Dean's powers and that Dean's behavior had changed not because he had black eyes. 

Mark P can make Lucifer scary but IMO the show already broke Lucifer by turning him into a whiny brat with red glowing eyes. So given the red eyes on Lucifer for the past seasons what else are they going to change about Lucifer going forward? He's lost what made him interesting IMO. I don't know what they can do to make him interesting again, but they could start by dumping the stupid red glowy eyes. 

I liked the red eyes--they should focus on making Lucifer more menacing again and less whiny.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's why I started the post off with the caveat. That said though, all of Creations promos in the past  (or since I've been involved in the cons anyway) have listed the big four, Jensen, Jared, Misha and Mark, and then whoever else is attending. I've never seen them include anyone else in that first group, not even JDM who is a bigger star than Mark P. If they had just listed J2M and then the rest, it wouldn't have pinged my radar - but this seems telling to me. Clearly that's just my inference and speculation though, no facts implied or intended.

Oh, I understand why you made the leap. And, it very well happen that Mark Pelligrino becomes a main player next year on the show. It's just that Creation is totally independent of the show itself so I hesitate to take that as a sign. To me, it looks like smart marketing more than a sign of what's to come on the show itself. It could be either it's part of his contract with Creation that he get billed higher or could also just be that Mark Pelligrino is the bigger name of that particular list of guests, so they put him higher in hopes of drawing more interest? I really don't know. I was just providing a different point of view--which can be helpful for discussion, IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I understand why you are speculating as you are @gonzosgirrl . It's not an illogical speculation. There is a reason that MP is being listed that way.  Mark S has confirmed he's doing 10 more cons for this season until his con contract is over. So they could have still listed it as J2M2 as they always did despite him no longer being with the show. I understand where you are coming from.

Some new spoilers would be fun right about now....

Sigh..

 

To be clear though, this is an email for 2018, after Mark S's run with Creation is done. He is still in the group pic for the remainder of the 2017 cons. And Mark isn't listed on the first con of 2018 (Orlando) as of now. It's only in that email that the wording jumped out at me. We'll see as the dates get closer and guests get added, I suppose. Interestingly, up to now and for the remainder of the 2017 dates, they have a 'Supernatural' banner, but for 2018 they have a J2M banner.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

To be clear though, this is an email for 2018, after Mark S's run with Creation is done. He is still in the group pic for the remainder of the 2017 cons. And Mark isn't listed on the first con of 2018 (Orlando) as of now. It's only in that email that the wording jumped out at me. We'll see as the dates get closer and guests get added, I suppose. Interestingly, up to now and for the remainder of the 2017 dates, they have a 'Supernatural' banner, but for 2018 they have a J2M banner.

Ah thanks for clarifying. I still think it is meaningful but that's just me.

[MysteryGuest]

The problem I have with making Lucifer more menacing, is what's the point?  We know he's all-powerful and can't be killed (at least not that we know of yet...I'm still holding out hope for the return of Michael's lance).  We know he can kill anyone he chooses to kill with the snap of his fingers.  But he's not going to kill Sam or Dean, at least not permanently until the show ends, so again, what's the point?  He can go around killing everyone the Winchesters care about, but we've already sort of been there, done that, haven't we?  

The only thing truly interesting they could do with Lucifer is for his son to actually have some impact on him and for him to find some redemption.  But right at the moment, I have zero interest in a redemption arc for Lucifer.  As I've said before, Lucifer is a one-note character.  He's evil (and annoying and whiny), and that's it.  Crowley had nuance and could be enemy or ally, and either option was believable.  I don't see Lucifer becoming an ally of the Winchesters.  Maybe he'll go back to Heaven with Jack to rule in God's absence..."go" being the operative word there!