Spoilers With Speculation

[Aeryn13]

I`ve only ever seen the opposite, like behind-the-scenes footage of actors standing in their sound booth, looking at the clips and then doing literally the voice-acting. Pretty much like ADR. Imagine a writer draws the character with a more "matter-of-fact"-face and the voice-actor does on over-the-top emo rendition of their line. Ouch. That would take me out of things. 

Not saying it doesn`t happen but I would prefer the different approach.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

It is the usual approach in animation to do the voices first before the animation. I've seen interviews with actors who've done voices for e.g. Pixar films. They always do the voices without seeing the animation. 

It depends on the production. When they did the anime series for Supernatural, the animation was already done and Jared and Jensen had to "match" that as best they could. I remember Jensen commenting on how restrictive it was to finding the moment or going slightly off script that way. 

Perhaps, since this is a new production, they're doing the voices first so the animation artists can find the characters through the performances already given? And, as you said, these things take time, so maybe they're just planning ahead?

Edited May 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

In that case I hope the animation isn`t too crappy. Not a fan of the picture they put out so far. It is better than that Supernatural Comic Series starring young Dean as Chucky.   

[The Morning Star]

Honestly, I think the Nephilim has to has his own agenda, I doubt he'll be Evil in a sense as his father but I seriously doubt his agenda is something good for humanity in the long run.

 

See, free will is a key concept within this show's mythology and paradise on earth will not happen unless:

A)Freedom of will is taken away or limited.

B)A Cain style purge happening to kill all the possible undesirables.

Neither option is something either of the brothers would put up with so a conflict with Jack is inevitable.

And above is the best case scenario for the character, worst case could be him just being a less smug and more focused and strategic minded Evil super villain like his father.

Any attempt to portray the child as a good savior is an insult to everyone's intelligence if you ask me.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Honestly, I think the Nephilim has to has his own agenda, I doubt he'll be Evil in a sense as his father but I seriously doubt his agenda is something good for humanity in the long run.

 

See, free will is a key concept within this show's mythology and paradise on earth will not happen unless:

A)Freedom of will is taken away or limited.

B)A Cain style purge happening to kill all the possible undesirables.

Neither option is something either of the brothers would put up with so a conflict with Jack is inevitable.

And above is the best case scenario for the character, worst case could be him just being a less smug and more focused and strategic minded Evil super villain like his father.

Any attempt to portray the child as a good savior is an insult to everyone's intelligence if you ask me.

He could just turn out to be another character trying to do the right thing but going about it all wrong? It could be that he believes in paradise, but learns from Sam and Dean that it can't actually happen for all the reasons you stated? I also wonder if, in the end, he'll end up going to "fix" the alternate universe since Sam and Dean have a handle on this universe?

[Wayward Son]

The more I'm left to muse on the idea of Cas being replaced by AU!Cas the more repulsive and offensive I find it. I've spent nearly nine years invested in the personal character growth of SN Cas and the relationship he has formed with Sam and Dean. To suddenly have that taken away and told to accept some ransomer because Cas is disposable is utterly abhorrent for this viewer. I already feel a lot of anger and resentment towards AU!Cas if they plan to have him chumming around with Dean and Sam as their new angelic ally, yuck!

I could accept a Cas free SN, but not a show which has AU acting as a replacement on a long term basis! I'll be quitting if that turns out to be the case. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Geordiegirl1967]

27 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

When they did the anime series for Supernatural, the animation was already done and Jared and Jensen had to "match" that as best they could

That's how anime is done, but it causes lots of issues for the actors, so often looks lame (as, sadly, the SPN did). For all other animation the voices are done first and the animators draw to match it. Explanation below 

http://www.studentfilmmakers.com/news/article_1670.shtml

see also this answer from an animator 

Quote

Answers so far are all over the place, but I'm an animator, and I've done cartoons, games, tv, etc. etc. 

Almost always voice first.

The "rough" animation mentioned in other answers is generally called an animatic and it's considered not so much animation as a timed storyboard. There may be a few situations where you would do the animation first but it's certainly not the norm. For example, if the piece was not originally supposed to have voice but someone in charge changed their minds after production started, or of course dubbing from other languages (although in that case the original is usually going to have done it the other way).

The reason is pretty simple, it makes things harder both on the animators and the voice actors to do it the other way. Character animation is acting, and if you are doing acting without speaking that's one thing, but it's much harder to realistically time speech while animating if you have no reference. Not impossible, but definitely not the ideal way to do it. Likewise, the voice actors are going to want to own their expression of the character's voice, not be constrained by someone else's decisions on vocal timing, body language, emphasis, etc.

Except in Japan though. There the actors act while watching the already animated footage. Which is why lip movements are always a bit off there.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I also wonder if, in the end, he'll end up going to "fix" the alternate universe since Sam and Dean have a handle on this universe?

This is what I am thinking will happen. When the writers create these all powerful beings, they have to figure out how to keep them out of the storyline most of the time and alt universe makes sense for this one.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 5/19/2017 at 11:01 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Rowena has that spell in her leg, she's pretty much immortal.

But Rowena is also a crispy critter now.  Not sure that spell would fix the burnt toast look.  

[The Morning Star]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

He could just turn out to be another character trying to do the right thing but going about it all wrong? It could be that he believes in paradise, but learns from Sam and Dean that it can't actually happen for all the reasons you stated? I also wonder if, in the end, he'll end up going to "fix" the alternate universe since Sam and Dean have a handle on this universe?

The best case scenario for him is just that, the problem is the assumption that he will listen to anyone really.

Think about it, the guy has a measure of future seeing ability, as Fetus devised the  unltimate plan to not only ensure his power is saved by effectively manipulating Cas, he ripped a tear in space time devising another plan to get rid of his father by locking him away in that dimension.

I find it extremely hard to believe and simple minded on part of the writers to think such creature with such knowledge and planning skill will listen to....practically anyone.

So even if he means well (which is still unknown at best and disputable at worst) a conflict will happen regardless as it's very likely for Jack to see the brothers as threats More than mentors.

As for the Alternate Universe, that place is beyond saving, it's gone, The only way to ensure peace happens is killing basically everybody.

Edited May 20, 2017 by The Morning Star

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oliver would wipe the floor with them in 0.2 seconds, it`s just no comparism in my eyes.

I never said anything about them fighting Oliver. I don't know where you're getting that idea. They would be working together as uneasy, snarky allies. I'm saying that Sam and Dean would hold their own in fights alongside Oliver, not against Oliver. I would be down for a salmon ladder off at the end of the episode.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I never said anything about them fighting Oliver. I don't know where you're getting that idea. They would be working together as uneasy, snarky allies. I'm saying that Sam and Dean would hold their own in fights alongside Oliver

It wasn`t my idea that they would necessarily fight against each other, I meant more that he outclasses them so much in terms of fighting, I wouldn`t even want to see them fight a common enemy together. It`d be like a ninja and two beginner karate students seen fighting next to each other. You know it`s not the newbies fault they look comparatively bad then but it still gives me that "oh honey, no, you can`t compete on that stage at any level" feeling.

So, I don`t really think they could hold their own in fights alongside Ollie which is why show shouldn`t even go there IMO.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Think about it, the guy has a measure of future seeing ability, as Fetus devised the  unltimate plan to not only ensure his power is saved by effectively manipulating Cas, he ripped a tear in space time devising another plan to get rid of his father by locking him away in that dimension.

Why do you think the time/space tear was intentional?  I didn't think it was  - that it was just some sort of weird side effect, like the biblical plagues (and power outages) they were looking for as a sign of a powerful nephilim being born.  

[SueB]

Having seen the full JIBCon video, Jared really did f*ck up.  They tried to cover with the 'it's just animation' but it was so obvious that they were trying to recover. 

Oliver Stone conspiracy theory-- that may have been an intentional f*ck up to accidentally reveal Cas ( in some form) is not gone.  They can play it off with the 'one off' animation angle to stay out of trouble, but these guys are too savvy IMO to let Cas' death ruin the con. 

[ILoveReading]

50 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For the same reason that it is nearly impossible to come up with a workable spin-off, it is in my eyes really hard to come up with a good x-over show.

It's too bad the shows that a cross over with SPN could work can never happen because of different networks.    I  always thought Grimm, Sleepy Hollow or The Exorcist would have been a good fit.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Any attempt to portray the child as a good savior is an insult to everyone's intelligence if you ask me.

I dunno, if it picked up any of Cas' good qualities when it joined with him, Cas could influence him to overcome the evil

 

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It wasn`t my idea that they would necessarily fight against each other, I meant more that he outclasses them so much in terms of fighting, I wouldn`t even want to see them fight a common enemy together. It`d be like a ninja and two beginner karate students seen fighting next to each other. You know it`s not the newbies fault they look comparatively bad then but it still gives me that "oh honey, no, you can`t compete on that stage at any level" feeling.

So, I don`t really think they could hold their own in fights alongside Ollie which is why show shouldn`t even go there IMO.

Okay, this is where we totally disagree then. Dean and Sam have fought demons, vampires, werewolves, you name it and they survived. Would they lose against bows and arrows? Yes, but then Dean would just shoot them.  As far as stage - fighting they would look a helluva lot better than some of the shit fighting they've had on Arrow with all the jump cutting and shaky camera they started using to cover up poor fight choreography that showed up last season. At least J2 can do their own convincing stage fighting.

I, personally, think it would be a fun episode to see how the boys worked in Oliver's world and to see Oliver function in their world. 

[rue721]

5 hours ago, DeansDorkyAngel said:

Lol, rejoice Cas' fans :D Jared done f***end up and dropped a major spoiler :D. Misha will be back as they just filmed 13x16 Scooby Doo ep.

I AM SO Happy!!!!!!

This is hilarious. WTF Jared! No more secrets for you! Jeez. It has been ONE DAY since Cas's death in the finale. ONE DAY.

This cracks me up so hard.

[The Morning Star]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why do you think the time/space tear was intentional?  I didn't think it was  - that it was just some sort of weird side effect, like the biblical plagues (and power outages) they were looking for as a sign of a powerful nephilim being born.  

Well, I'd argue without the tear, the baby would've been captured by Lucifer, considering Jack's actions so far, he seemed fairly on top of thing with the way he handled Dagon, converted Cas and evaded the brothers.

It would make so much more sense to assume he made sure his dad wouldn't capture him than assuming it happened by chance.

I mean, when has anything happened by chance in this show?

Edited May 20, 2017 by The Morning Star

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Having seen the full JIBCon video, Jared really did f*ck up.  They tried to cover with the 'it's just animation' but it was so obvious that they were trying to recover. 

I love how Misha showed up to distract them from the conversation by talking about the rented house escapades and getting the fans to focus on those 3 hot, drunk men sharing  a house with not enough sleeping space for all 3.  Jared, Jared, Jared...LOL. Oops

[DittyDotDot]

38 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The more I'm left to muse on the idea of Cas being replaced by AU!Cas the more repulsive and offensive I find it. I've spent nearly nine years invested in the personal character growth of SN Cas and the relationship he has formed with Sam and Dean. To suddenly have that taken away and told to accept some ransomer because Cas is disposable is utterly abhorrent for this viewer. I already feel a lot of anger and resentment towards AU!Cas if they plan to have him chumming around with Dean and Sam as their new angelic ally, yuck!

I could accept a Cas free SN, but not a show which has AU acting as a replacement on a long term basis! I'll be quitting if that turns out to be the case. 

I agree that it would be insulting to replace Cass with an alternate version of Cass, but I'm not sure that's what they're planning. I think it more likely the spawn will resurrect Cass or the dead Cass will turn out to be and alternate version of Cass and our Cass is stuck in the alternate universe with Mary, Lucifer and Crowley (And, no, I still don't believe Crowley's gone ;)). 

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But Rowena is also a crispy critter now.  Not sure that spell would fix the burnt toast look.  

It's magic.

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

This is hilarious. WTF Jared! No more secrets for you! Jeez. It has been ONE DAY since Cas's death in the finale. ONE DAY.

This cracks me up so hard.

Or, he didn't. Perhaps it takes place in the past? ;)

[The Morning Star]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I dunno, if it picked up any of Cas' good qualities when it joined with him, Cas could influence him to overcome the evil

 

Okay, this is where we totally disagree then. Dean and Sam have fought demons, vampires, werewolves, you name it and they survived. Would they lose against bows and arrows? Yes, but then Dean would just shoot them.  As far as stage - fighting they would look a helluva lot better than some of the shit fighting they've had on Arrow with all the jump cutting and shaky camera they started using to cover up poor fight choreography that showed up last season. At least J2 can do their own convincing stage fighting.

I, personally, think it would be a fun episode to see how the boys worked in Oliver's world and to see Oliver function in their world. 

The way I saw it was Jack recognizing how gullible and easy to manipulate the Cas character is and using that to his own advantage.

The baby doesn't seem like a baby to be imprinted on or mentored, he seems already on top of things.

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or, he didn't. Perhaps it takes place in the past? ;)

Very possible...I would actually LOVE LOVE LOVE it if they did all kinds of flashbacks and shit using animation. I mean, they could really go nuts, since they have total freedom to draw the characters however they want. Like they could also include people like John if they wanted.

I am also imagining Cas as a kind of Agamemnon's Ghost character.

ETA:  like, he could be a kind of guide to the Doom World or some other dimension that way, like Agamemnon's Ghost was a kind of guide to the underworld.

But it also cracks me up to think of Jared spilling a huge secret ONE DAY after people start wondering about it. I mean come on. So basically...I want to believe. ;)

ETA2:  PLEASE can they have this episode take place at a carnival. I was just thinking recently that they have not had an episode at a carnival for a long time, and I really wish they would.

I guess carnivals also always remind me of SPN anyway, because they're always kind of grimy and eerie, and because all the workers have to travel from town to town living in motel rooms and tents and vans and stuff.

And, of course, Scooby Doo and carnivals go together like peas and carrots.

Edited May 20, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

Just now, The Morning Star said:

e way I saw it was Jack recognizing how gullible and easy to manipulate the Cas character is and using that to his own advantage.

The baby doesn't seem like a baby to be imprinted on or mentored, he seems already on top of things.

Eh, I don't see it that way. Maybe it thought it could manipulate Cas, but instead Cas' innate goodness, loyalty  actual abiity to feel love and show love to others, will influence him more than Lucifer's selfish, manipulative, arrogant, murderous asshole traits.  YMMV

[RulerofallIsurvey]

38 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Well, I'd argue without the tear, the baby would've been captured by Lucifer, considering Jack's actions so far, he seemed fairly on top of thing with the way he handled Dagon, converted Cas and evaded the brothers.

I completely agree that if Lucifer hadn't gotten stuck in the AU, he would have, at least tried, to take over Jack.  I'm just not convinced that the tear was intentional.  I don't think Jack could have known that Crowley would show up to help the guys with the spell that would seal it shut or that Dad would get stuck there anyway.  

33 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

The baby doesn't seem like a baby to be imprinted on or mentored, he seems already on top of things.

This will bother me to no end if it's true.  Granted, I don't think we have enough nephilim lore in the show to judge whether or not this would go against canon, but I still just don't understand how it could be.  And if true - if he's already on top of things, it probably wouldn't have mattered if Lucifer had gotten hold of Jack, since Jack seemed at least as powerful as Lucifer - and if he's on top of things, he wouldn't have let his dad manipulate him and turn him evil either.

Edited May 20, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
clarification of what 'it' and 'he' was and even is not enough

[The Morning Star]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Eh, I don't see it that way. Maybe it thought it could manipulate Cas, but instead Cas' innate goodness, loyalty  actual abiity to feel love and show love to others, will influence him more than Lucifer's selfish, manipulative, arrogant, murderous asshole traits.  YMMV

Oh I'm not implying that he'l be like his father 100 percent, while a possibility, he can mean well and still cause a conflict.

I guess we'l see eventually but personally the idea of a character as powerful as Jack who has shown possessive of the ability to survive  both the brothers and Lucifer so far sitting down and letting Sam and Dean teach him what's good and bad is a tad unrealistic to me at least.

[catrox14]

Just now, The Morning Star said:

Oh I'm not implying that he'l be like his father 100 percent, while a possibility, he can mean well and still cause a conflict.

I guess we'l see eventually but personally the idea of a character as powerful as Jack who has shown possessive of the ability to survive  both the brothers and Lucifer so far sitting down and letting Sam and Dean teach him what's good and bad is a tad unrealistic to me at least.

I don't think that is going to happen. I think he'll probably try to heal Cas and whether he succeeds or fails, I don't think he'll be hanging at the bunker with the boys at all. I suspect he'll take off to do his own thing and it will be the boys trying to find him. If he's with them at all, it will be for a hot minute.

[Idahoforspn]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean and Sam have fought demons, vampires, werewolves, you name it and they survived. Would they lose against bows and arrows? Yes, but then Dean would just shoot them. 

 

Your my personal hero today. Still laughing!

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Imagine a writer draws the character with a more "matter-of-fact"-face and the voice-actor does on over-the-top emo rendition of their line. Ouch. That would take me out of things. 

Not saying it doesn`t happen but I would prefer the different approach.

Sorry to keep on about this, but I they really do do the voice first. Re the point you make above, the voice artist delivers each line in dozens of different ways; angry, happy, sad, fast, slow etc etc. The director picks the ones he wants to use and the animators animate to that. Some of the software they have now can synch the voices to the animated lips brilliantly. It is really hard to do the other way around. Being a voice artist is a specialism and one of the things that makes them good is their ability to deliver the lines without any visuals. 

[The Morning Star]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I completely agree that if Lucifer hadn't gotten stuck in the AU, he would have, at least tried, to take over Jack.  I'm just not convinced that the tear was intentional.  I don't think Jack could have known that Crowley would show up to help the guys with the spell that would seal it shut or that Dad would get stuck there anyway.  

This will bother me to no end if it's true.  Granted, I don't think we have even nephilim lore in the show to judge whether or not this would go against canon, but I still just don't understand how it could be.  And if true - if he's already on top of things, it probably wouldn't have mattered if Lucifer had gotten hold of Jack, since Jack seemed at least as powerful as Lucifer - and if he's on top of things, he wouldn't have let his dad manipulate him and turn him evil either.

Well the baby was shown to be capable of seeing future, who's to say he didn't see Crowley showing up?

Remember "The Future"?

 

My hypothesis is merely based on all we've seen from the character so far and from what we've seen, he intelligently manipulated Cas, evaded Dagon and Lucifer and the brothers to survive, If he possessed enough power to defeat his father at that instance, I'm sure he would've killed his father the same way he did Dagon.

And he didn't, which strongly suggests he wasn't powerful enough to evade his father, at least at that instance.

[SueB]

The series thesis are (IMO):

1.Free Will - we may not get to choose our circumstances but we choose what we do about it   

2. Nurture can beat nature (see Free Will)

3. Family don't end with blood  ...and just cause your blood, doesn't mean your family

 

If Jack is a fully fleshed out being, we'll see some struggle. If he's really short term, I think he be good because of Kelly's love for him   

[The Morning Star]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think that is going to happen. I think he'll probably try to heal Cas and whether he succeeds or fails, I don't think he'll be hanging at the bunker with the boys at all. I suspect he'll take off to do his own thing and it will be the boys trying to find him. If he's with them at all, it will be for a hot minute.

Guess we'l eventually see if Castiel was merely a tool for Jack or a mentor.

Either way, I think he'l be a villain.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Well the baby was shown to be capable of seeing future, who's to say he didn't see Crowley showing up?

Remember "The Future"?

I remember.  I also don't happen to think "The Future" (any vision of The Future) is set in stone.  Remember when the angels were convinced that the Apocalypse had to end with Michael and Lucifer fighting each other?  That didn't happen either.  

[The Morning Star]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I remember.  I also don't happen to think "The Future" (any vision of The Future) is set in stone.  Remember when the angels were convinced that the Apocalypse had to end with Michael and Lucifer fighting each other?  That didn't happen either.  

If memory serves me correctly, the apocalypse was more what they thought was "supposed" to happen than what would actually happen.

The baby saw a projection of what would be likely to happen and it did, I can't see why he couldn't do that again.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

33 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

If memory serves me correctly, the apocalypse was more what they thought was "supposed" to happen than what would actually happen.

The baby saw a projection of what would be likely to happen and it did, I can't see why he couldn't do that again.

Well, there's the whole Book of Revelations which the angels were going by, which God himself supposedly wrote down as to what would happen at the end of the world....   So if that's how it was "supposed" to happen, and yet it didn't, I don't see why what Jack allegedly projected into Cas' mind is any different.  That is: it might happen - and it might not.  I just don't think it's any more likely to happen than God's own vision.  

[Wynne88]

I'm wondering what's going to happen to Mary.  The last we saw of her, she and Lucifer were on the wrong side of the rip in space, and he had just turned to look at her with those red eyes . . . and he wasn't happy.  It's not like there's anyplace to run, she hasn't had time to make allies, and there don't seem to be any weapons that can take him out.  Where can they take that that won't be a retread?

[The Morning Star]

29 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, there's the whole Book of Revelations which the angels were going by, which God himself supposedly wrote down as to what would happen at the end of the world....   So if that's how it was "supposed" to happen, and yet it didn't, I don't see why what Jack allegedly projected into Cas' mind is any different.  That is: it might happen - and it might not.  I just don't think it's any more likely to happen than God's own vision.  

Don't forget we're talking about what the baby saw not what he showed Cas.

The story with Apocalypse was about guiding destiny towards the desired outcome, not a prediction.

-Making sure Sam and Dean are born.

-Making sure Lucifer escapes.

-Making sure The vessels say yes.

Ect.

Not a prediction, more like a guideline. a script that was torn in the end.

In "The Future" the baby predicted that Castiel would be put in a vulnerable position and this specific course of action would protect and preserve his power and he wasn't wrong, was he?

Edited May 20, 2017 by The Morning Star

[goldy]

6 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I'm wondering what's going to happen to Mary.  The last we saw of her, she and Lucifer were on the wrong side of the rip in space, and he had just turned to look at her with those red eyes . . . and he wasn't happy.  It's not like there's anyplace to run, she hasn't had time to make allies, and there don't seem to be any weapons that can take him out.  Where can they take that that won't be a retread?

I see two scenarios:

1. Lucifer will try to kill Mary, but then she will get save by alt Bobby and/or the real Cas (the Cas that died in the episode, I'm assuming is alt Cas).

2. Mary is getting killed by Lucifer in the first episode of season 13 and everyone else that supposedly died will somehow come back

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

If Jack is a fully fleshed out being, we'll see some struggle. If he's really short term, I think he be good because of Kelly's love for him

But what about his smile at the end? That looked like it had much more evil than good.

[MysteryGuest]

I have no idea whether Jack will be good or evil, but the fact that he powered Cas up to destroy Dagon makes me lean toward him being good.  Dagon was not Jack's enemy.  She herself was protecting him and planned to unite him with Lucifer once he was born.  So it's plausible that he wants no part of Lucifer and might be inclined to save Cas, since Cas did his best to protect him and his mother.  

I don't really want our Cas to become AU Cas, but the reality is that if Misha is staying (which I absolutely hope is true), they have to find a better storyline for him than what we've had in recent years.  Our Cas had been ineffectual and a shadow of his former self.  I really don't want to go back to that.  So if we start out with Cas being revived, but coming back different somehow, that does open up possibilities for better storylines for him.  Whether he remembers Sam and Dean right away or not, I'm thinking it wouldn't be long before they had bonded again.  I don't see them bringing Cas back to make him an enemy of the boys.  Cas' bond with Sam and Dean is what the majority of fans like.  I guess we'll have to wait and see what we end up with.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, The Morning Star said:

Guess we'l eventually see if Castiel was merely a tool for Jack or a mentor.

Either way, I think he'l be a villain.

Or, he'll be the one to finally end Lucifer.

[rue721]

I will be kind of miffed on Kelly's behalf if that's really Jack and he really does resurrect Cas, while leaving her corpse to rot in the bedroom. I mean really? That's his mom ffs. You'd think she'd be his priority over her friend/his godfather.

Edited May 20, 2017 by rue721
word choice

[Wayward Son]

My bitterness free (or as much as I can make possible :) ) speculation for the upcoming season.

Following the standard modus operandi of recent season I believe that episodes 1-3 will be mytharc based with a shift then to a MOTW for episode 4. So I'll stick to predictions for the first three episodes. This is really rough layouts of what I can imagine than anything too specific haha

 

Episode 1: Mourn Castiel and Operation Get Back to Bizarro World. The first act of the episode will focus on the aftermath of Castiel and Crowley's death. The boys will spend some time mourning and give a hunters funeral to Cas. There will probably be an encounter between Jack, who turns out to be evil, and Sam uses some sort of sigil to banish him since he is part angel. They then return to the bunker and spend the remainder of the episode focused on finding a way to reopen the portal to Bizarro world in order to save Mary. The concluding cliffhanger will be them jumping into the portal. 

Episode 2: The boys are in Bizarro land and meet AU Bobby and whatever former cast members the show can afford to bring back / are available to meet. The boys are followed by Jack and somehow they come to a tenative agreement to work together temporarily. The episode ends with the boys rescuing Mary, but it has the unfortunate consequence of releasing Lucifer too.

Episode 3: The fallout of Lucifer's escape. Jack has turned on Daddy dearest and Lucifer is forced to replace Crowley as their frenemy. AU Cas has also popped into our world with them perhaps fascinated to find out more about this alternate Cas who rebelled and was so different to him. 

 

ETA: I think Crowley is dead, Castiel will be replaced with AU!Cas for a while (yuck) and Rowena is still alive, but they'll reserve that reveal for some point later in the season. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

Guess we'l eventually see if Castiel was merely a tool for Jack or a mentor.

Either way, I think he'l be a villain.

I might be misunderstanding you. rae you saying that Castiel is either a foolish tool used by an already evil Jack or he's a mentor that leads Jack to be a villain?

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I might be misunderstanding you. rae you saying that Castiel is either a foolish tool used by an already evil Jack or he's a mentor that leads Jack to be a villain?

I'm not sure what @The Morning Star meant, but I think it could easily be a case of he begins good or at least some twisted version of it (and intended on mentor Cas) but something happens and he goes full blown evil. I'm thinking something like Jasmine from Angel. He starts off with lofty goals of creating the paradise foreseen by Cas, the boys and general humanity reject it as the cost of free will etc is too much, and he goes into a strop and vows to destroy the world or something. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not sure what @The Morning Star meant, but I think it could easily be a case of he begins good or at least some twisted version of it (and intended on mentor Cas) but something happens and he goes full blown evil. I'm thinking something like Jasmine from Angel. He starts off with lofty goals of creating the paradise foreseen by Cas, the boys and general humanity reject it as the cost of free will etc is too much, and he goes into a strop and vows to destroy the world or something. 

Okay, that makes sense.

[Wayward Son]

It's not of comfort to me as I still fear AU!Cas replacement which I utterly detest (see previous posts), but this might be of comfort to the rest of you :) 

 

[Aeryn13]

If this was curtains for Cas as the character we got to know for the last 9 years, then I feel it was majorly disrespectful not to do post mortem tributes by the producers. Returning as a different character is not the same thing, it keeps the actor in play but it doesn`t celebrate the character that was.

Now I believe Misha just referenced the spelling conundrum - personally I will keep Cas because his name isn`t Casstiel either so screw you, official show-spelling - and Cas as was returns somehow.

I believe Misha will go to Comic Con and we will know for sure then because there is no way to get through the roundtable interviews and not indicate the direction either way. Unless he says nothing which defeats the purpose of going there and promote the show.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

If this was curtains for Cas as the character we got to know for the last 9 years, then I feel it was majorly disrespectful not to do post mortem tributes by the producers. Returning as a different character is not the same thing, it keeps the actor in play but it doesn`t celebrate the character that was.

I totally agree with this! I really hope they reveal the truth one way or the other at Comic Con especially if they are going down the AU route. At least then I wouldn't have to waste any of my time on S13. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, The Morning Star said:

In "The Future" the baby predicted that Castiel would be put in a vulnerable position and this specific course of action would protect and preserve his power and he wasn't wrong, was he?

I just don't remember this at all.  You may be right - but it isn't what I remember.  (I'll have to go back and rewatch.)  I thought the baby showed Cas "the future", which is what he told Kelly in ep23?

ETA: I really don't see much difference between your 'script' theory about the Apocalypse and a vision of the future that the baby showed Cas.  They are both only possible outcomes, not definite, imo.

EETA: ^Which begs the question: if you "know" the future, do your actions make it come true either on purpose or inadvertently, or is it really "destiny"?

Edited May 20, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
future theory

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If this was curtains for Cas as the character we got to know for the last 9 years, then I feel it was majorly disrespectful not to do post mortem tributes by the producers. Returning as a different character is not the same thing, it keeps the actor in play but it doesn`t celebrate the character that was.

Now I believe Misha just referenced the spelling conundrum - personally I will keep Cas because his name isn`t Casstiel either so screw you, official show-spelling - and Cas as was returns somehow.

I believe Misha will go to Comic Con and we will know for sure then because there is no way to get through the roundtable interviews and not indicate the direction either way. Unless he says nothing which defeats the purpose of going there and promote the show.

I agree here. I think we might get AU!Cas as a known entity to the boys and an ally or he's a sneaky doppleganger who keeps it a secret and somehow actual!Cas comes back at the midseason finale. I just think actual!Cas will get a far better death than this.