Spoilers With Speculation

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Gods. I hate how stupid the boys look right now. It's ridiculous. These boys are too smart for this bullshit.

Yup.  Its especially irritating coming right after an episode where Sam and Dean talk about their legacy.  Now they're responsible for giving up the names of their hunter friends and getting more people killed. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Yup.  Its especially irritating coming right after an episode where Sam and Dean talk about their legacy.  Now they're responsible for giving up the names of their hunter friends and getting more people killed. 

This is what pisses me off more than anything else. Sam resisted ALL the torture to not give up those names. I would think it would have occurred to Sam that maybe they still want those hunters names.  It's just unbelievably annoying and I just don't get it. I'd rather have the boys live in brotherly angst to the end of time as long as they are smart than see this crap

[Goldmoon]

It also doesn't make any sense for the BMOL to want the hunters dead.  Are they planning for monsters to rule the USA? 

They better not kill Jessie and Ceasar, or Eileen. Do we know any other hunters, besides the nameless mob that was mourning Asa Fox?  To be honest I don't care about Krissy, or Claire, so they CAN kill those obnoxious ladies.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

It also doesn't make any sense for the BMOL to want the hunters dead.  Are they planning for monsters to rule the USA? 

Oh man, I almost forgot about Jesse and Cesar. Surely they can't be stupid enough to kill the hunter husbands. That would be a dreadful mistake especially not that long after killing Charlie. And Eileen...well just no. I refuse to believe they'll kill her.

I'd believe they would kill off Donna before Eileen :( Which I do not want to happen either.

[catrox14]

So here I go down my rabbit hole of Dean's wardrobe.  

He's worn this or a similar outfit 3 times at least in the last 2 seasons. In all 3 cases that I can think of off hand Cas is in jeopardy because of another angel whom Cas made a decision to trust and the angel harmed him anyway. 

Hell's Angel - Hunter Green/Army Green canvas jacket over green and black plaid shirt over black tshirt : Cas is in trouble and being controlled by Lucifer.  Crowley possesses Cas to convince him to expel Lucifer.  Dean is trying to get Cas to expel Lucifer but he's kind of on lockdown

Lily Sunder : Green/Olive Green brushed or waxed suede jacket  over a I think a greenish and white plaid shirt over a black t-shirt: Cas is manipulated and physically assaulted by Ishim who tries to kill Dean. Dean refuses to blast Ishim away because it might kill Cas.

 

The Future: Same or similar jacket as in Lily Sunder, over a dark grey/kohl shirt over black t-shirt: Cas is with another angel who may not trustworthy at all and who has interfered with Cas and the boys. 

 

Is the green because Dean is somewhat jealous ( I don't mean romantic jealousy)or feels protective of Cas?

Edited April 21, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 Now they're responsible for giving up the names of their hunter friends and getting more people killed. 

Do we know for certain that the BMoL are getting the names from Sam and Dean?  Seems to me like Mick was making contact with other American hunters before Sam and Dean started working with them - even after Sam wouldn't give up any names to Lady GoJumpOffABridge.  They also could have gotten names from Mary - surely even if most of her old contacts are dead, she's made new ones since being back and hunting.  Actually, I hope it is through Mary that they are getting the names.  

9 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

It also doesn't make any sense for the BMOL to want the hunters dead.  Are they planning for monsters to rule the USA? 

They better not kill Jessie and Ceasar, or Eileen. Do we know any other hunters, besides the nameless mob that was mourning Asa Fox?  

I think they are planning to put their own trained puppets...er operatives in place and set up a management system like they use in England.  

Eileen went back to Ireland, so I would think she's safe for now.

There's also the twins from Asa Fox.  I don't want them dead.  

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Do we know for certain that the BMoL are getting the names from Sam and Dean?

I thought that was the point of the bug.  To get as much intel as they can.

[Wayward Son]

This is probably out there and not what the show is going for... 

But how much do the British Man of Letter's know about the brothers history? For instance do they know about Dean's death at the end of No Rest for the Wicked or the mutual death in Point of No Return? 

I've seen numerous people post that Ketch's decision to surveillance the brothers rather than out right kill them is nonsensical. However, what if their reason for doing so is they hope to catch a hint on how to not just kill the brothers, but a method that will ensure they stay dead. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Wayward Son

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought that was the point of the bug.  To get as much intel as they can.

Oh, I'm sure.  But it doesn't mean that the names of other hunters came from Sam and Dean.  As @Aeryn13 pointed out, the boys don't usually seem to know a lot of other hunters anyway.  

ETA: and Herr Hess gave Ketch a stack of files of American hunters to kill.  Dean's was on top, but his wasn't the only one.  

Edited April 21, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
more files

[Boopsahoy]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh, I'm sure.  But it doesn't mean that the names of other hunters came from Sam and Dean.  As @Aeryn13 pointed out, the boys don't usually seem to know a lot of other hunters anyway.  

ETA: and Herr Hess gave Ketch a stack of files of American hunters to kill.  Dean's was on top, but his wasn't the only one.  

I see no reason for Sam or Dean to sit in the bunker and call out names of hunters-I am pretty sure the BMOL would have gotten the names from papers they saw/read when in the bunker.

 

I find it odd that they haven't wondered about Mick since he was sticking to them like glue just an episode ago. Don't they find it odd he hasn't been around?

Edited April 21, 2017 by Boopsahoy

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Jerry Wanek and his merry band of artists are amazing!

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Do we know for certain that the BMoL are getting the names from Sam and Dean?  Seems to me like Mick was making contact with other American hunters before Sam and Dean started working with them - even after Sam wouldn't give up any names to Lady GoJumpOffABridge.  They also could have gotten names from Mary - surely even if most of her old contacts are dead, she's made new ones since being back and hunting.  Actually, I hope it is through Mary that they are getting the names.  

I think they are planning to put their own trained puppets...er operatives in place and set up a management system like they use in England.  

Eileen went back to Ireland, so I would think she's safe for now.

There's also the twins from Asa Fox.  I don't want them dead.  

Yeah, I'm not sure the bug will be successful in getting hunters names as much as Ketch will be more in the know on what Sam and Dean are really up to. I mean, they didn't know Sam and Dean were working the Devil baby drama until their conversation with Mick about it. I'm sure the Brits are wondering what else Sam and Dean have cooking they don't know about too. So, I highly doubt the bug was placed in hopes of overhearing Sam and Dean sitting around talking about their hunter friends.

However, even though Eileen is in Ireland, I don't think she's safe. She killed one of their operatives, I don't think there's anywhere in the world she can go they won't go looking for her. 

The Twins are Canadian, though, so maybe they're not on the Brits radar...yet? And, Donna's not really a hunter. She's in the know now, but I don't think she's like Jodi who has actively sought out the supernatural. So, again, maybe Donna's not on their radar either. And, weren't the hunter husbands based out of somewhere in South America? Didn't they come to the states just to work the "personal" case? So, in theory, they too are safe. 

So, of the hunter friendlies we know of, I think Jodi and the girls would be the main targets right now. And, Mary, of course. I'm sure there are more hunters out there Sam and Dean know--they always seem to be able to pull one out of their ass when they need to--but, they don't know them well enough to have been on-screen yet, so they'll be the red shirts in all this.

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

This is probably out there and not what the show is going for... 

But how much do the British Man of Letter's know about the brothers history? For instance do they know about Dean's death at the end of No Rest for the Wicked or the mutual death in Point of No Return? 

I've seen numerous people post that Ketch's decision to surveillance the brothers rather than out right kill them is nonsensical. However, what if their reason for doing so is they hope to catch a hint on how to not just kill the brothers, but a method that will ensure they stay dead. 

My belief has always been the Brits don't really know all that much. They know the big stuff that everyone knows, but I don't think they know as much as they think they know. 

[catrox14]

For me, the fact that we all seem to have different ideas about what the BMoL are trying ti accomplish at this point tells me this is pretty poorly plotted and NOT a good mystery if mystery is what Dabb is going for here. Spy game plots are only fun IMO, when both sides are shown to be, and continue, to be  suspicious of the other side in some way.  As it stands now, Dean's previous complete distrust of, and   healthy skepticism about the BMOL is   being supplanted by Valium!Dean. Sam was already all in it seems (I will forever just never get why he made that choice other than for Mary). Mary is clearly all in with them.

Since  Ketch has a kill order for the Winchesters from Not!MrsUmbrage, and it's known that he executed past kill orders quickly, without question or  hesitation, and with prejudice, shouldn't he be planting  explosives in the lair instead of bugs? How much more interesting and suspenseful would this have become if the boys were under that threat than bugs?

They already have a stack of dossiers of Hunters they intend to kill, of which Dean seems to be the first target. They already had whatever intel Mary either knowingly or inadvertently provided to the BMOL, what else do they think they are getting from the boys? 

I will look at this more favorably if the end game is to make the BMOL look stupid on purpose by wasting time bugging the bunker given the boys, by and large, have never been shown to particularly discuss other hunters with any detail if at all, inside the bunker.  They worry about Cas . They argue about Mary. They discuss pending cases but not the whereabouts of other hunters other than say the town where a hunt is happening. They don't talk about other hunters actual home addresses  because they probably don't know and it's safer that way. They aren't a hub for other hunters like Bobby.

It just makes no sense, MO, unless the boys are onto them. And if they are then let the viewers in on that tidbit. Like let's say they give  a fake name and location of hunter to set up a trap for Ketch and company,  like they did with the dudes at the prison. I think sadly, that is not what's happening here. If it is they need to say it in the next episode. At least it would make it all make sense but for this viewer it's only fun if we are in on  the scheme.

Edited April 21, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 They worry about Cas . They argue about Mary. They discuss pending cases but not the whereabouts of other hunters other than say the town where a hunt is happening. They don't talk about other hunters actual home addresses  because they probably don't know and it's safer that way. They aren't a hub for other hunters like Bobby.

I agree with this in theory, but I'd never thought Dean would have just rolled over and played good solider for the Brits.  Its so out of character for him to not put up more of resistance or at least refuse to go along.  Something like we'll take a case but i'm not reporting in.

So I guess it depends on whether the writers decided to take the easy way out,, by having Sam and Dean discuss their hunter buddies. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by ILoveReading

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

I find it odd that they haven't wondered about Mick since he was sticking to them like glue just an episode ago. Don't they find it odd he hasn't been around?

I thought Sketch told them Mick had gone back to England.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree with this in theory, but I'd never thought Dean would have just rolled over and played good solider for the Brits.  Its so out of character for him to not put up more of resistance or at least refuse to go along.  Something like we'll take a case but i'm not reporting in.

So I guess it depends on whether the writers decided to take the easy way out,, by having Sam and Dean discuss their hunter buddies. 

That's why I'm saying I hope, and it's probably me having some pollyanna hope that someone on the writing staff is more clever and is purposefully writing this as a big ruse by the Winchesters. It's kind of all I have at this point to not consider this season ALL the wasted potential.

I've always said that Dean is a good actor but a terrible liar. IF this is all a big ruse, maybe Dean has decided to go Method and play Valium!Dean that way on purpose. I'm 100% sure that's not the case but I have to find something in this to make Dean less of a patsy. 

[ster1]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

For me, the fact that we all seem to have different ideas about what the BMoL are trying ti accomplish at this point tells me this is pretty poorly plotted and NOT a good mystery if mystery is what Dabb is going for here. Spy game plots are only fun IMO, when both sides are shown to be, and continue, to be  suspicious of the other side in some way.  As it stands now, Dean's previous complete distrust of, and   healthy skepticism about the BMOL is   being supplanted by Valium!Dean. Sam was already all in it seems (I will forever just never get why he made that choice other than for Mary). Mary is clearly all in with them.

5

I just read a Tumblr meta laying out how S12 is all about misdirection, withheld info, and subversion.  The author was convinced that the reason it's so difficult to speculate about the finale/there's so little foreshadowing this season compared to others is because we're missing key info. Apparently,  that's going to be revealed in the last few episodes, making this season brilliant in retrospect. 

With all due respect to the meta writer, her analysis was actually far more in-depth and cohesive than anything I've seen onscreen this season. And even if she's right about it all magically coming together in the end (which, yeah, so not going to happen), keeping both the brothers and the audience in the dark is a risky strategy.  As a viewer, I want to share in the creative journey of a season. I don't want to feel lost and wonder what the heck's going on until the 11th hour when the showrunner yells, "Surprise! See how clever we were! Ha ha, you had no idea what we were doing, didjya?" That's just a great way to alienate an audience. Even a lot of  long time, hardcore fans are saying they're confused and frustrated by this season. 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree with this in theory, but I'd never thought Dean would have just rolled over and played good solider for the Brits.  Its so out of character for him to not put up more of resistance or at least refuse to go along.  Something like we'll take a case but i'm not reporting in.

2

One of my pet peeves this season has been the godawful characterizations.  I don't understand Valium!Dean, Lobotomized!Sam, IceBitch!Mary. I don't even know what to say about Cas, since he did a 180 in the last episode and then went MIA. Even Crowley's acting like an idiot, thinking he can tame Lucifer without BAD THINGS HAPPENING. Sigh.  

I guess it's not surprising if new writers can't be bothered to watch the previous canon, to, you know..... understand the characters they should be writing about??? Double sigh.

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

Yeah, I'm not sure the bug will be successful in getting hunters names as much as Ketch will be more in the know on what Sam and Dean are really up to. I mean, they didn't know Sam and Dean were working the Devil baby drama until their conversation with Mick about it. I'm sure the Brits are wondering what else Sam and Dean have cooking they don't know about too. So, I highly doubt the bug was placed in hopes of overhearing Sam and Dean sitting around talking about their hunter friend

 

I agree, I think the Brits just want to find out what the brothers know before they kill them.  Of course, they could have bugged the Bunker a long time ago (using smaller, better hidden bugs than that Cold War relic monstrosity) so that when the kill order came,  Ketch was ready to go. Just like I don't understand why the Brits are going after random hunters. It would have made more sense to destabilize the hunting community by killing Dean and Sam first. This just gives the brothers time to figure out what's going on and stop the Brits. 

It does feel like the BMoL storyline is going to wrap up this year while the Lucifer/nephilim one will roll over.  Based on how gung ho Dabb was about the Brits' introduction, I wonder if he originally planned for it to go on longer. The whole thing with Mick's death felt like it came out of nowhere. Maybe Dabb was changing course?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

As a viewer, I want to share in the creative journey of a season. I don't want to feel lost and wonder what the heck's going on until the 11th hour when the showrunner yells, "Surprise! See how clever we were! Ha ha, you had no idea what we were doing, didjya?" 

It can be effective if a writer shows consistent brilliance and therefore earns the audience`s trust for something like that. When you can see little hints along the way forming a tapestry but the final picture won`t be revealed until the end. Kudos to any show that can pull this off. That is different, though, then visibly making up stuff as you go along and then throw in some "twist" in the end that is supposed to mirror brilliant storytelling.

Overall, I`d say SPN is predictable. The BMOL are stupid with their horror!Hogwarts  and the sudden quest to kill all American hunters. And the protagonists are stupid to ever have given them the time of day. There is literally nothing they can do in the Finale to make either of those right or work in retrospect. You can`t go back and make the characters less stupid. That damage is done. 

Mary is IMO unsalvageable as a character. No matter what they do with her in the end. The best they can do is give her a little redemption. And Lucifer and the Nephilim is just a giant world of no. 

The best thing to do for this Season would be in the Finale to IMO time travel back and erase it in its entirety. Which is not gonna happen.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ster1 said:

I just read a Tumblr meta laying out how S12 is all about misdirection, withheld info, and subversion.  The author was convinced that the reason it's so difficult to speculate about the finale/there's so little foreshadowing this season compared to others is because we're missing key info. Apparently,  that's going to be revealed in the last few episodes, making this season brilliant in retrospect. 

I made a post way upthread a while back wherein I was wondering if this was building towards some kind of SHERLOCK (bbc show) type GOTCHA reveal, which will explain it all away and IMO it works for Sherlock because the audience knows he's working the case from the jump, and is just waiting on his "How dun it". 

IMO if this is going to be "Sherlock"ian type thing, I needed at least ONE hint that one brother or the other or shit even Mary had been working some angle, to make it satisfying viewing. I don't see any clues that any of them have been working an angle at all. It's my wishful thinking at this point I think.

[Wayward Son]

It would be interesting if the meta was right! The last time the show took that approach was in season 6! First it seemed like soulless Sam and the Campbells would be the antagonists of the season, then the mother of all before the ultimate reveal that it was actually Castiel and Crowley behind everything! 

Im not saying that'll happen again or anything! Just that's the last time the show did this noir mystery type reveal.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It would be interesting if the meta was right! The last time the show took that approach was in season 6! First it seemed like soulless Sam and the Campbells would be the antagonists of the season, then the mother of all before the ultimate reveal that it was actually Castiel and Crowley behind everything! 

Im not saying that'll happen again or anything! Just that's the last time the show did this noir mystery type reveal.

I thought  the Crowley part was the surprise but I thought it was fairly clear  that Cas was definitely up to something peculiar so to me it was a matter of what he was up to, not that he was up to something at all unlike here where there IMO haven't been any real clues that any of them are up to anything on the DL other than the BMoL.  

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ster1 said:

As a viewer, I want to share in the creative journey of a season. I don't want to feel lost and wonder what the heck's going on until the 11th hour when the showrunner yells, "Surprise! See how clever we were! Ha ha, you had no idea what we were doing, didjya?" That's just a great way to alienate an audience.

I took my response to the "Writers, Directors, and the Powers That Be..." thread.

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought  the Crowley part was the surprise but I thought it was fairly clear  that Cas was definitely up to something peculiar so to me it was a matter of what he was up to, not that he was up to something at all unlike here where there IMO haven't been any real clues that any of them are up to anything on the DL other than the BMoL.  

I wasn't as sure that Castiel was up to something - or at least not something that big - but I did think he was acting oddly, that's for sure. I enjoyed "Mommy Dearest" so much - in addition to the humor - because the reveal was so unexpected, and then with the subsequent episodes, things in retrospect all of a sudden started making sense.

But I do agree that so far, the hints and groundwork for any kind of reveal have not been that well established here - with the exception of maybe Crowley... If Crowley is somehow working against everyone - including Sam and Dean - I think the hints there have been pretty good, and I'd already wondered if Crowley might not be playing a long con with Sam in Dean and that even saving Castiel was part of it.

Edited April 21, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I wasn't as sure that Castiel was up to something - or at least not something that big - but I did think he was acting oddly, that's for sure. I enjoyed "Mommy Dearest" so much - in addition to the humor - because the reveal was so unexpected, and then with the subsequent episodes, things in retrospect all of a sudden started making sense.

I agree with this; I was completely blindsided by the fact that he was working with Crowley. It wasn't until Bobby & Sam showed skepticism at Cas not knowing that Crowley was still alive that I started to look for hints of shadiness since that was a big hint that something more was going on.

[MysteryGuest]

I wonder if there was some sort of hunter list the boys had in the Bunker?  The BMOL photographed everything, and I think that's the sort of stuff they were looking for.  I don't think the bug was meant to pick up hunter's names, I think it was just meant to keep tabs on Sam and Dean.

They wouldn't be suspicious about Mick right away, because they were given a plausible reason for his absence.  But I think they will tire pretty quickly of answering to Ketch.  Hopefully, it will only take the killing of a few hunters for the boys to start adding things up.  Sam was tortured by them so that he would give up names.  They have to make the connection pretty quickly, I hope.  But they won't be able to show their hand, so they'll have to find some way to alert their fellow hunters without letting the BMOL know they're on to them.  Now is when they need to show that the American hunters are far more clever than the BMOL.  They might have all of their fancy gadgets, but they've been shown to be fairly inept at hunting, wth the exception of Ketch.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I wonder if there was some sort of hunter list the boys had in the Bunker?  The BMOL photographed everything, and I think that's the sort of stuff they were looking for.  I don't think the bug was meant to pick up hunter's names, I think it was just meant to keep tabs on Sam and Dean.

They wouldn't be suspicious about Mick right away, because they were given a plausible reason for his absence.  But I think they will tire pretty quickly of answering to Ketch.  Hopefully, it will only take the killing of a few hunters for the boys to start adding things up.  Sam was tortured by them so that he would give up names.  They have to make the connection pretty quickly, I hope.  But they won't be able to show their hand, so they'll have to find some way to alert their fellow hunters without letting the BMOL know they're on to them.  Now is when they need to show that the American hunters are far more clever than the BMOL.  They might have all of their fancy gadgets, but they've been shown to be fairly inept at hunting, wth the exception of Ketch.

 I think whatever they have is on their phones, their laptops and I think Sam uploaded all that stuff into the cloud back in Stuck in the Middle. Hopefully, Sam started working on that as soon as they got back to the Bunker after being saved considering that's why they were torturing him.

What I want to know is where the hell is John's journal?  AFAIK, Mary hasn't given it back to the boys, and I would hope she didn't give it over to the BMoL at any point.  There would be some hunter names in there from way back. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I made a post way upthread a while back wherein I was wondering if this was building towards some kind of SHERLOCK (bbc show) type GOTCHA reveal, which will explain it all away and IMO it works for Sherlock because the audience knows he's working the case from the jump, and is just waiting on his "How dun it". 

IMO if this is going to be "Sherlock"ian type thing, I needed at least ONE hint that one brother or the other or shit even Mary had been working some angle, to make it satisfying viewing. I don't see any clues that any of them have been working an angle at all. It's my wishful thinking at this point I think.

I already loathe this season, but it might just put me off the show altogether if this 'misdirection' thing turns out to be true. Well done, it can be effective and entertaining, but these writers just don't have the talent to pull it off. I submit "Stuck In the Middle (With You)" into evidence. Terrible. They've done it several more times this season to laughable results - the scenes 'revealing' how Crowley snatched Luci from The Magic Egg come to mind. You are correct: there hasn't been any foundation at all for any one of them being 'in' on anything, but dang, the more I think about how many times they've used this kind of thing this season, the more possible this seems. Ugh.

[ILoveReading]

46 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I already loathe this season, but it might just put me off the show altogether if this 'misdirection' thing turns out to be true. Well done, it can be effective and entertaining, but these writers just don't have the talent to pull it off. I submit "Stuck In the Middle (With You)" into evidence. Terrible. They've done it several more times this season to laughable results - the scenes 'revealing' how Crowley snatched Luci from The Magic Egg come to mind. You are correct: there hasn't been any foundation at all for any one of them being 'in' on anything, but dang, the more I think about how many times they've used this kind of thing this season, the more possible this seems. Ugh.

I agree.  I thought maybe they were building something with Dean and that is why he seemed to apathetic and overdosing on valium but according to Dabb, Dean's all in with the Brits. 

The Mary/Dean confrontation rumored for either ep 21 or 22 isn't going to be any more effective for me than it was in The Raid if someone comes along and shames Dean  into apologizing and admitting he was the one at fault for the relationship not working.  Since Jody is in that episode, I'm guessing it will be her.

Any resolution is going to feel forced and pulled out of left field because nothing the Brits are doing makes any kind of logical sense.

If they kill Umbridge and Ketch, are the Brits just going to pack up and go home?  I would think that would make them more determined to kill Dean and Sam.  So there really isn't a way for the Brits to really be wrapped up this season, unless Lucifer is one of the "old men" and they can kill two birds with one stone and then the Nephilim can go to heaven and we never hear the name Lucifer or British Men of Letters again for as long as the show is on the air.

Edited April 22, 2017 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

19 hours ago, ster1 said:

I just read a Tumblr meta laying out how S12 is all about misdirection, withheld info, and subversion.  The author was convinced that the reason it's so difficult to speculate about the finale/there's so little foreshadowing this season compared to others is because we're missing key info. Apparently,  that's going to be revealed in the last few episodes, making this season brilliant in retrospect. 

---

It does feel like the BMoL storyline is going to wrap up this year while the Lucifer/nephilim one will roll over.  Based on how gung ho Dabb was about the Brits' introduction, I wonder if he originally planned for it to go on longer. The whole thing with Mick's death felt like it came out of nowhere. Maybe Dabb was changing course?

I'm of the same opinion that they've been playing the long game all year.  I haven't read this meta you are talking about but I've been planning to write up what I think are the S12 themes and arcs thus far.

I do agree, however, that if it's not something that people are at least getting hints of, then that's a fail.  Dabb may be trying to be "too clever".

As for Mick's death, I think it was almost "paint-by-numbers" predictable.  In fact, I DID predict his death (and not because I think I'm smart but because it followed some fairly well-established patterns).   Specifically:
- Mick became much more interesting in The Raid the moment he admitted the Vamps handed them their asses and he's alive only because Sam and Mary were there.  Mick showed real humility in that finale scene with Sam and that made him different than the rest of the BMoL.
- Mick had a major change of heart in Ladies Drink Free.  He had the unsettling kill of Hannah and then a 'revelation' with the Claire surviving.  At this point he's disobeying his own code. I figured his days were numbered.
- From the promo of Mick having a crisis and pointing a gun at Eileen, Sam and Dean - I figured Mick would be permanently swayed over to TFW and be on outs with BMoL.  Then when the sneak peek came out (can't remember what it was), I knew Mick was toast.  
Pattern 1:  Bad guy turns good guy due to Winchester influence, the now "good guy" takes on his old allies, and then the now "good guy" is killed by old allies.  Provides a somewhat meaningful death and mangst (man angst for the Winchesters) when they find out.
Pattern 2: It's a second "Mick-centric" episode.  We've seen this many times: make the recurring guest story more poignant and kill them.
- Finally when the episode starts off with Hogwarts Hunter games, Mick is toast.  We've now see his primary character motivation (childhood trauma from BMoL) and that his organization kills indiscriminately.   

Mick's death was, IMO, written in stone at the start of the season. He would be the ONE Brit that Sam and Dean 'flipped' and he would get killed for allying with the Americans,

Edited April 22, 2017 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know if there's a twist coming. There could be, but the season has felt very straight-forward to me. I think they'll bring all the threads together in some fashion and I think there will be a lot more revelations--like, what exactly the Devil has been planning and what Cass is planning and probably more on the extremes Mary has went to in her naive attempt to fix the boys' lives--but I don't think it will be a big ole GOTCHA. I think it will just fill in some of the holes here and there.

18 hours ago, ster1 said:

It does feel like the BMoL storyline is going to wrap up this year while the Lucifer/nephilim one will roll over.  Based on how gung ho Dabb was about the Brits' introduction, I wonder if he originally planned for it to go on longer. The whole thing with Mick's death felt like it came out of nowhere. Maybe Dabb was changing course?

See, I feel exactly the opposite. To me, the BMoL storyline all season has felt like set up for more seasons and the Lucifer storyline seems less likely to continue on past the first couple wrap-up episodes of next season.

Personally, I still don't think the Devil baby will amount to anything more than putting the Winchesters and Brits on opposite sides again. I think it'll be like Jessie the Antichrist and be sent off to parts unknown by the end of the season. I still think it would be hilarious if the baby was born powerless, though. 

I figured Mick wasn't long for the show after the werewolf episode since he was starting to come over to the Winchesters way of thinking. Ketch, on the other hand, seems straight up antagonist and I could see him sticking around to antagonize the Winchesters for a while to come. I wouldn't be surprised if Lady Toni survives the season too.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm never very good at predicting what's going to happen, but I know what I would prefer to happen.  I wouldn't mind at all if the BMOL storyline continued into next season.  I really have enjoyed getting to meet more American hunters, and that could absolutely continue into next year, as they take on the BMOL.  It just seems like a fairly big storyline to just resolve in the next few episodes.  This group has been around for hundreds of years, and only a handful of them are actually in the states.  I don't think just sending them back to England really resolves the story in any satisfying way.  

I know that not everyone agrees, but I just find the Lucifer storyline to be boring as hell.  I'm tired of Crowley being shown to be an idiot when it comes to Lucifer.  How many times does he need to be burned before he eliminates his enemy outright?  He had an opportunity to do that, and I really hate that they had him screw it up just for some idiotic power play that he's ultimately going to lose.  Crowley went to great lengths to eliminate Abaddon, I can't really see him doing any less with Lucifer.  I would have been very happy to see Lucifer back in the cage, and Crowley getting some of his evil mojo back.  He is the King of Hell, after all.

Edited April 23, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree.  I thought maybe they were building something with Dean and that is why he seemed to apathetic and overdosing on valium but according to Dabb, Dean's all in with the Brits. 

The Mary/Dean confrontation rumored for either ep 21 or 22 isn't going to be any more effective for me than it was in The Raid if someone comes along and shames Dean  into apologizing and admitting he was the one at fault for the relationship not working.  Since Jody is in that episode, I'm guessing it will be her.

I've seen other showrunners do this - (and it really irks me when they do) but in early interviews they'll say one thing, like 'it sure seems like Dean's all in with the Brits' <--(note, NOT a real quote afaik) but they're only saying that because they don't want to give away the "SURPRISE!" twist at the end.  So, I could see it going either way (Long game or not).  I do want to see Sam and Dean being smart again as far as the Brits are concerned by the end of the season at least - because they are smart fellas.

Since Jodi (Jody? sp?) took Dean's side in the Asa Fox ep, I really don't see her turning around and shaming him for anything regarding Mary.  If anything, I hope she shames Mary some more.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Lady Toni survives the season too.

Oh no, please just NO.  My only wish for (early Supernatural) Christmas this year is that she DIE, DIE, DIE.  ;)

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh no, please just NO.  My only wish for (early Supernatural) Christmas this year is that she DIE, DIE, DIE.  ;)

Well, I didn't say it's what I wanted, just that, storywise, I could see her surviving for a bit longer. I'd rather they not, but I rarely get what I want, so... .

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I've seen other showrunners do this - (and it really irks me when they do) but in early interviews they'll say one thing, like 'it sure seems like Dean's all in with the Brits' <--(note, NOT a real quote afaik) but they're only saying that because they don't want to give away the "SURPRISE!" twist at the end.  So, I could see it going either way (Long game or not).  I do want to see Sam and Dean being smart again as far as the Brits are concerned by the end of the season at least - because they are smart fellas.

Since Jodi (Jody? sp?) took Dean's side in the Asa Fox ep, I really don't see her turning around and shaming him for anything regarding Mary.  If anything, I hope she shames Mary some more.

Oh no, please just NO.  My only wish for (early Supernatural) Christmas this year is that she DIE, DIE, DIE.  ;)

It wasn't an early interview  It was from the spoiler we just got. The spoiler we got from Dabb indicated he's under the belief that Dean is on board.  I find on this show what you see is what you get.  Given Dabb's words, I think what we've seen is Jensen acting against the script. 

I don't see any twist coming regarding the brits, because they're have been zero hint that Sam and Dean are running a long con.  If the next couple of episodes showed the Brits getting false info that would tell me that maybe Sam and Dean found the bug, even if we don't actually see it. 

Same with Dean.  , I don't see any special going on with him.  None of the usual red flags are present.   He's just another name on Ketch's list.  Id like to think that he was on top meant something but again so far nothing indicates that.

Berens is writing the ep with the Dean/Mary confrontation and since he also wrote the one in the raid it wouldn't surprise me if they did have her side with Mary.

Edited April 22, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

The spoiler we got from Dabb indicated he's under the belief that Dean is on board.  I find on this show what you see is what you get.  Given Dabb's words, I think what we've seen is Jensen acting against the script. 

Except Dabb didn't say Dean was on board, he said he went in with his eye wide open. Which to me says that Dean made a conscious decision to work with the Brits and give them a shot while also knowing they weren't all they were cracked up to be. I don't think that means Dean's on board, nor is it what we've seen on screen. It'd have to be Jensen changing the script, not acting against it if that was the case. IMO, Dean has not been on board, but hanging off the side getting ready to jump before the train derails.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except Dabb didn't say Dean was on board, he said he went in with his eye wide open. Which to me says that Dean made a conscious decision to work with the Brits and give them a shot while also knowing they weren't all they were cracked up to be. I don't think that means Dean's on board, nor is it what we've seen on screen. It'd have to be Jensen changing the script, not acting against it if that was the case. IMO, Dean has not been on board, but hanging off the side getting ready to jump before the train derails.

It's hard to say what's going on with Dean since they've dropped his POV.   I don't agree its changing the scripts because the writing for Dean just isn't there.  What is is very limited and very passive.    All we've seen is that Dean doesn't like Ketch but from all indications neither he nor Sam are looking for their own cases anymore and reporting in.   They seem to be following the rules, even if they don't like them. 

After the whole thing with Mick trying to kill Eileen should be a huge red flag that something is very wrong with the whole organization.  But the very next week its just business as usual.  Why aren't they questioning anything?  

Hopefully we'll see something in the next batch of eps but the only spoiler we have is that Mary is the one starting to have doubts.  Not Sam and Dean. 

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It's hard to say what's going on with Dean since they've dropped his POV.   I don't agree its changing the scripts because the writing for Dean just isn't there.  What is is very limited and very passive.    All we've seen is that Dean doesn't like Ketch but from all indications neither he nor Sam are looking for their own cases anymore and reporting in.   They seem to be following the rules, even if they don't like them. 

After the whole thing with Mick trying to kill Eileen should be a huge red flag that something is very wrong with the whole organization.  But the very next week its just business as usual.  Why aren't they questioning anything?  

Hopefully we'll see something in the next batch of eps but the only spoiler we have is that Mary is the one starting to have doubts.  Not Sam and Dean. 

I thought it's been clear both Sam and Dean have been having doubts and questioning things for a while now, but Dean in particular has been voicing his displeasure with working with the Brits almost from the moment they started working with them. The beginning of the werewolf episode had Dean expressly stating if they wanted to give him tips on hunts, that was fine, but he wasn't at all happy with reporting for duty or waiting on them when he did report. If it was just Jensen playing against the script and it was actually written for Dean to be totally on board, then Jensen would've had to change the script. His lines are clearly stating Dean is not on board.

I understand your frustration that they're not noticing the red flags that are clearly there. It's frustrating, to be sure. I just don't think it means the same thing you do. I think it's a product of the show trying to stretch the story out till May sweeps, myself. I'm quite certain it will be clearly shown that Dean isn't really on board, but like I said, hanging at the door. Sam, on the other hand, I think he's on the train, but hasn't taken his seat. Mary, though, she's not only on board, but she's already unpacked her bags in her cabin. Too bad she's gonna get the boot when the conductor comes around and sees her ticket isn't for this train.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought it's been clear both Sam and Dean have been having doubts and questioning things for a while now, but Dean in particular has been voicing his displeasure with working with the Brits almost from the moment they started working with them. The beginning of the werewolf episode had Dean expressly stating if they wanted to give him tips on hunts, that was fine, but he wasn't at all happy with reporting for duty or waiting on them when he did report. If it was just Jensen playing against the script and it was actually written for Dean to be totally on board, then Jensen would've had to change the script. His lines are clearly stating Dean is not on board.

IMO, the last time Dean was clearly NOT on board was prior to him saying that he would go ahead and join with Sam., 

To me if he still just hanging on the side of the train, he would just show up to do the dirty work and not get involved in the bureaucracy of it all, like the check-in calls, the debriefs, and emailing Mick himself as their email account showed. He could just leave all that to Sam if he was mostly not on board still.

He says he doesn't like Ketch but he's still not really doing a thing to try and figure why Ketch is sketch. That's why I think Dean is either valium! Dean or AllAboardtheBMOL!Dean train.  I prefer Valium!Dean in that case because it leaves me hope that something will be his wake up call that he decides "Okay, I've had enough." And does some of his own research which he should have done a long ass time ago.  YMMV

[SueB]

51 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought it's been clear both Sam and Dean have been having doubts and questioning things for a while now, but Dean in particular has been voicing his displeasure with working with the Brits almost from the moment they started working with them. The beginning of the werewolf episode had Dean expressly stating if they wanted to give him tips on hunts, that was fine, but he wasn't at all happy with reporting for duty or waiting on them when he did report. If it was just Jensen playing against the script and it was actually written for Dean to be totally on board, then Jensen would've had to change the script. His lines are clearly stating Dean is not on board.

I understand your frustration that they're not noticing the red flags that are clearly there. It's frustrating, to be sure. I just don't think it means the same thing you do. I think it's a product of the show trying to stretch the story out till May sweeps, myself. I'm quite certain it will be clearly shown that Dean isn't really on board, but like I said, hanging at the door. Sam, on the other hand, I think he's on the train, but hasn't taken his seat. Mary, though, she's not only on board, but she's already unpacked her bags in her cabin. Too bad she's gonna get the boot when the conductor comes around and sees her ticket isn't for this train.

emphasis mine.

Exactly.  Just about every piece of dialog shows they are on their guard. The "eyes open" comment, IMO means caution.  On the spectrum of cooperation/trust versus distance/mistrust, the term "eyes open" skews closer to mistrust than trusting.

At the end of Ladies Drink Free (the first case they openly worked with them) the boys said:

Quote

Sam: Not quite, but we'll give you a second chance.

Dean: Just don't mess it up. There won't be a third.

  Now, at the end of the very next case, Mick stands down when Dean and Sam tell him he can't hurt Eileen.  So, from their perspective, Mick is bending to the boy's morals versus following his ingrained code. And they don't know Mick has gotten killed for it.

They start their 3rd case with just an e-mail from Mick. When it's Ketch on the phone, Dean says "I don't trust that guy." 

I don't see how any of that translates to "on board".  

But what exactly is the "arrangement"? Seems to me, the BMoL give them tips and they report back what happened.  They aren't living at the BMoL and so far all the cases, including those before Sam acknowledged the source, have turned out legit.  In the mean-time, they clock is ticking on the Baby Mama Drama and they need to find Kelly.  So, I could see them focused on that and not looking for random cases. Kelly is at least 6-7 months pregnant by now.  You really don't start showing until 20 weeks for a first baby.  And she's been showing for weeks.  So, with Cas MIA, and having Kelly in the hands of a Prince of Hell, that's their priority for THEIR efforts.  Notice that up until this point they haven't ask the BMoL to take up the Kelly search?

 

Moving on to Mary and the BMoL.  Two tidbits from the notoriously unreliable episode write-ups:
12.20 "Sam (Jared Padalecki) answers Mary’s phone and he and Dean (Jensen Ackles) head out to help Alicia and her twin brother, Max ..."
12.21 "Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are alarmed when they learn hunters are being killed by suspicious “accidents” all over the country. They decide it is best to find Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and make sure she’s safe."
It sure looks like they lose contact with Mary.  Why is she separated from her phone?  And how do they find her?  Seems to me that they will go on full alert regarding the BMoL in 12.21. Likely having learned something in 12.20.  (I worry the twins are going to die).  

So... at the end of the day... the narrative (to me) looks pretty well set up to have some level of closure this year:
- The audience knows the BMoL is bad news, right from 12.1. 
- Sam and Dean have given them a chance after initially staying away because they've demonstrated value in finding cases.  They are still reluctant co-workers, taking tips but not acting cozy with the BMoL.  Mary, OTOH, is acting cozy (to the point of borrowing sugar) with the BMoL. They seemed to have gotten Mick turned around a bit but now he's been recalled home.
- Next up will be them discovering (over the course of one or two episodes) that the BMoL are taking out hunters and that Mary may be at risk.
- They'll find Mary and there will be a "Come to Jesus" with the BMoL/TFW. I suspect Lady McTorture to be an ally in getting rid of Ketch.  
And there's the whole arc, boiled down to the the major story point IMO.  Even if we didn't have the spoilers, showing all the BMoL sketchy moves to the audience tells us that this is not going to end well in terms of partnership.  The spoilers support that.
 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It wasn't an early interview  It was from the spoiler we just got.

mmv, but I still consider that a pretty "early" interview - in that it wasn't directly before the finale.  So, once again, it might be just that he doesn't want to give away the SURPRISE ending ahead of time.  Of course I could be wrong.  I'm just saying that I've seen other showrunners do that even one or two episodes before where their 'statements' were proved false.  It may or may not mean a thing.  

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Exactly.  Just about every piece of dialog shows they are on their guard

Bolding mine

This is the key word.  Sam and Dean can talk about the British men of Letters until their blue in the face.  They can mention how much they hate Ketch and don't trust him, complain about the Brits.  IMO, not of that matters if you don't back up your actions.

Despite their dislike of Ketch, they're still reporting to him.  Despite now knowing about the code, they're still working jobs for them.  They're still accepting jobs from them despite knowing their philosophy that the only good monster is a dead one.  We've seen nothing to indicate they're looking for their own jobs anymore. 

Despite their talk, none of their actions back up their words. 

4 hours ago, SueB said:

They'll find Mary and there will be a "Come to Jesus" with the BMoL/TFW. I suspect Lady McTorture to be an ally in getting rid of Ketch.  

The biggest problem with this story is that with the multiple red flags the boys have ignored the "come to Jesus" should have happened long ago.  Sam and Dean should know that if any other hunter had caught the werewolf case there is a good chance Claire would be dead.  After Mick wanted to kill Eileen it would have been a time to wonder if they should continue to work for them, but nope.  Business as usual. 

When Sam and Dean have their epiphany its going to look like came a day late and a dollar short.  Every other hunter in America figured out these guys were bad news with no more than a cup of coffee.  Sam and Dean, who are supposed to be the premier hunters in America can't figure it out despite multiple clues. 

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

 

Quote

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

The beginning of the werewolf episode had Dean expressly stating if they wanted to give him tips on hunts, that was fine, but he wasn't at all happy with reporting for duty or waiting on them when he did report. If it was just Jensen playing against the script and it was actually written for Dean to be totally on board, then Jensen would've had to change the script. His lines are clearly stating Dean is not on board.

 

This was at the start of the very first case Dean worked for them.  We have heard him express no objections since, other than saying he doesn't like Ketch, but again he's not doing anything about it.  If Dean had said something like, "Screw it.  Ketch can read about it in the paper" That would be something, but again actions  trump words.

So I don't see Jensen changing scripts.  He had very little significant dialogue in  17, and 18 Dean looked like he was mainlining Valium.  But I don't remember him doing anything other than saying I hate Ketch, but doing nothing so suggest he's actually going to stop working for him.   So I think Jensen is trying to put some hesitation into Dean's actions but he can't change dialogue that isn't there. 

It is frustrating but it doesn't change the fact that its making Sam and Dean looks clueless.  I get dragging it out but there are ways to do it without making Sam and Dean look like amateurs.   If its some long con ( and I really don't see it being one), its past time they let the audience in on it.  Its going to look like it was forced in.

But we can agree to disagree as I think im getting to far off topic. 

 

Quote

mmv, but I still consider that a pretty "early" interview - in that it wasn't directly before the finale.

Since the finale is written weeks in advance Dabb would know how its going to turn out.   I'd like to be wrong but I don't see a major twist coming here, with regards to the brits, MMV

Edited April 23, 2017 by ILoveReading

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Since the finale is written weeks in advance Dabb would know how its going to turn out.

But that's exactly my point.  Dabb knows how it's going to turn out. He just doesn't want to give it away to the General Audience.  

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But that's exactly my point.  Dabb knows how it's going to turn out. He just doesn't want to give it away to the General Audience.  

The question was is Dean going to feel vindicated.  Dabb's answer was some but not a lot (parapharasing).  That, IMO, doesn't sound like he's hiding anything, it sounds like a straight forward answer, again MMV

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But that's exactly my point.  Dabb knows how it's going to turn out. He just doesn't want to give it away to the General Audience.  

I don't think anyone is asking for him to give it all away.  But if he's going for a GOTCHA reveal, it's time to start showing at least ONE of his cards.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 But if he's going for a GOTCHA reveal, it's time to start showing at least ONE of his cards.

Oh, I agree.  That's why I said in my original comment that it irks me when other showrunners do this also.  If that's what Dabb is actually doing.  I don't know either way.  

[companionenvy]

I thought that we might have a GOTCHA reveal re: the BMOL prior to the revelation of murder-Hogwarts and the code, but now I think the show is more or less playing it straight with all of the key parties. Cas is still a wildcard, but as he isn't really involved in the BMOL drama, I'm not counting him for the purposes of this discussion.

I think Dabb was being pretty straightforward in his answer as well. As DittyDittyDot said above, the fact that he says Dean went in with his eyes open doesn't mean Dean is happy about the situation, which he clearly isn't. My read on it is that Dean will be vindicated in the sense that he will have been proven right that the BMOL are bad news, but it won't be a major "I told you so" situation since Dean, too, had ultimately agreed to work with them, and it isn't as if Sam was ever arguing that they were the best and most ethical guys ever. So, while Sam was, characteristically, more trusting than Dean, they were close enough to being on the same page that "vindicated" is too strong a word.

Of course, even if there's no long game, that doesn't mean there can't be plenty of surprises ahead. I haven't heard any spoilers that suggest where Mary is likely to be at season's end, for instance - correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know if Samantha Smith is signed on for next year, do we? 

[catrox14]

I still take issue with Dabb using 'eyes open' with Dean. IMO 'eyes open' implies that Dean is aware of ALL potential problems, at least that is how I've always thought of "eyes open", i.e. "I went into this job knowing what the problems will be and I chose to take it on anyway". Dean did not have all the relevant facts, like the BMOL wanting names of other hunters.  

Sam refused to give up any names even after being tortured.  Dean's question to Mary, Mick or Ketch would have been "How can the other hunters matter so much to you that you tortured my brother to get that info? What do you want with them??"

Quote

THE SCENE CONTINUES WITH THE THREE WINCHESTERS STANDING TOGETHER NEAR SAM’S CHAIR AND CASTIEL STANDING NEAR MICK BUT WATCHING HIM.

MICK: What you were told is basically true. We were keen on knowing about the two of you, seeing as you seem to be partially carrying on the Men of Letters' work here now that the American chapter is defunct.

TONI GETS UP OFF THE FLOOR.

DEAN: So you sic your attack dog on us to what, say hi?

MICK: Well, part of our group suspect some kind of malfeasance amongst you American Hunters. No argument – Lady Bevell went too far. I deeply apologize.

SAM SHAKES HIS HEAD INCREDULOUSLY.

SAM: Mm.

MICK: She'll face consequences in London.

DEAN: I'll tell you what, why don't you take a walk, and she can face those consequences right here and now?

MICK SHAKES HIS HEAD.

MICK: She's ours. We'll take care of her. Now, I'm here to extend an olive branch. We want to work with you.

SAM: Let me ask you a question, uh, Mick is it? Why would we believe any of this?

MICK: Lads...if I wasn't sincere, if I meant you harm, there's a dozen ways I could've come in here and taken you all prisoner instead of being unarmed. Not to mention I powered down all the wardings in this shack so your attack dog could come in. I reckon you could finish me off without breaking a sweat. Am I right?

CASTIEL: I don't sweat under any circumstances.

MICK: My number.

MICK HANDS HIS CARD TO CASTIEL.

MICK: Take your time, cool down, and just think it over. And what have you got to lose, except your worst nightmares?

I can't find nor recall any exchange about anything other than passcodes and Benny's name coming up, which leads me to question  why IT SEEMS thus far, that Sam never told Dean that was the purpose of Sam's torture.  What would be gained by Sam not telling Dean that salient point? IMO, NOTHING, As for Mick, he's either a liar here or he doesn't know why Lady POS wanted the names and "passcodes".

That is leaving me with the idea that  Sam purposefully kept it from Dean which, I hope not OR IMO, the other option is that Sam himself has no memory of that part of the torture because part of Lady POS' tactic was the psychosexual mind-rape, which is on a whole other level of fucked up ness.

And that information alone would have stopped Dean (and Sam) from joining.  YMMV

Edited April 23, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I think the BMOL storyline suffers from Merlin-syndrom. The BBC show that is. Both in Season 3 and 4 there was a character the audience could see from the start was bad but the "reveal" was kept for the Season Finale. And we`re only talking 13 episodes here, not 23. It makes the characters look dumb and the audience lose patience with them if the audience has so much more information from the start. The BMOL gave enough hints they were bad news. Still joining with them as the brothers did was dumb. Keep working for them is dumb.

Which might be okay for Mary. They trashed the character so much, it is believable she is that dumb. But not the damn protagonists of the show.

And I don`t think there will be a big "surprise" in the end. Not for the audience. The "surprise" will be for the characters when they find out what everyone in front of the screen already knew. That the BMOL are muhahahaha-evol. What response is that gonna have other than "gee, no shit, idiots". 

[MysteryGuest]

I agree that the BMOL's level of evil is almost cartoonish, which makes it all the more frustrating that Sam and Dean keep missing all of the GIANT signals they've been giving off.  It's a writing fail for me in that there's absolutely no nuance.   From the very beginning with Sam's torture, they knew what the BMOL were after...other hunter's names.  If they were willing to literally torture Sam to get that information, what exactly did they think they were going do with those other hunters?  Invite them to tea?  

I don't think it was necessary to have Sam and Dean actually work with/for them to make the story work.  Mary could still have gone dark side.  She was legitimately and understandably messed up after being brought back, and could have justified their methods in exchange for the end result of ridding the world of monsters.  We'd have had Sam and Dean on the opposite side from Mary, but that might have been interesting.  Instead, they opted to totally dumb down our main characters to get them to fit their storyline.  It's just lazy, bad writing.

[catrox14]

I was  thinking about Kelly and how she's all "I'm gonna have this baby no matter if he made my hand set the Bible on fire!".  I was thinking she probably thinks he's gonna look like President Jeff.  Is it? Or is it going to just look like her and have wings and red eyes? Or what? 

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was  thinking about Kelly and how she's all "I'm gonna have this baby no matter if he made my hand set the Bible on fire!".  I was thinking she probably thinks he's gonna look like President Jeff.  Is it? Or is it going to just look like her and have wings and red eyes? Or what? 

Mark P, hinted someones eyes my glow gold, maybe its the baby's

Edited April 23, 2017 by ILoveReading