Spoilers With Speculation

goldy · February 10, 2017

Pics from episode 1212:

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2017/02/10/supernatural-photos-season-12-episode-12-stuck-in-the-middle-with-you/?slide=6

Wayward Son · February 10, 2017

18 minutes ago, goldy said:

This picture made me laugh! It will probably turn out nothing like this in the actual ep, but I just imagined they were all in the middle of a serious talk. The waitress comes over to give them refills and flirts with Cas. Cas is staring at her awkwardly not knowing how to respond and Mary is giving her the evil eye for interrupting their talk with flirtation haha

Edited February 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

ILoveReading · February 10, 2017

I really hope they aren't going to make the boys work with the BMoLs after they double cross their mom.

MysteryGuest · February 11, 2017

I don't think anything fatal is going to happen to Castiel. They may screw with him a bit and either make him a reaper, or whatever, but I don't see them killing him off. He has much too big a fan base for them to do that at this point. Maybe it just means that they're recognizing that they need to actually do something with his character, so it could be a really good thing. Step away from that ledge, Catrox!

Geordiegirl1967 · February 11, 2017

Synopsis for ep14

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-raid-description-sammy-vampire-slayer/140535/

Quote

SAMMY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER – A chance to take out a nest of vampires backfires when the alpha-vamp shows up and turns the tables on Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and The British Men of Letters, who are doing their best to recruit Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles). Directed by John MacCarthy, the episode was written by Robert Berens. (#1214). Original airdate 3/2/2017.

Is this thread the right place to put this? I think it is new. I hadn't seen it before. Can't say it wows me. Sounds like a throwaway MOTW ep. But you never know.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

enaiowen · February 11, 2017

13 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Are you the enaiowen who used to post on the IMDb Board? If so 'hi'. I remember you as one of the (ever diminishing sadly) group of intelligent sensible posters.

Aww, thanks GG. Yes. Same enaiowen. ☺

Its nice to see you here.

SueB · February 11, 2017

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Synopsis for ep14

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-raid-description-sammy-vampire-slayer/140535/

Is this thread the right place to put this? I think it is new. I hadn't seen it before. Can't say it wows me. Sounds like a throwaway MOTW ep. But you never know.

I so hope that the Alpha Vamp is THE Alpha Vamp, Rick Worthy. I do love him.

mertensia · February 11, 2017

Oh, I hope so too, SueB. I've been waiting for his return. I'd love for him to turn the BMoL.

nightwing877 · February 11, 2017

Mary still working with the BMoL. I wonder how long it will be until Sam and Dean give in and work with them. Hoping this means we see more of Mary, and she doesn't disappear for a few episodes and come back. I know she isn't a regular, but they got to make an effort to develop the relationship the three have more.

Geordiegirl1967 · February 11, 2017

5 hours ago, SueB said:

I so hope that the Alpha Vamp is THE Alpha Vamp, Rick Worthy. I do love him

Me too, but they didn't credit him in the synopsis which made me wonder.

Why are we meant to think Mary is working with BMoL behind D&Ss backs? Do you think it's because she sees them as a chance to get her boys out of hunting i.e. to make it unnecessary? Or are we meant to think she approves of their methods

ILoveReading · February 11, 2017

I want to know why after being double crossed by HMSS, why any of the Winchesters would even give them the time of day. It's just going to make them look dumb, especially since according to this ep it sounds like they're betrayed again.

I wonder where Dean will be. This was the ep that was filming while he was off with the twins.

Demented Daisy · February 11, 2017

Quote

SAMMY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER – A chance to take out a nest of vampires backfires when the alpha-vamp shows up and turns the tables on Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and The British Men of Letters, who are doing their best to recruit Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles).

Hey, @DittyDotDot, you may get to see the vampire ray gun the BMoL were talking about! :-D

Edited February 11, 2017 by Demented Daisy

DittyDotDot · February 11, 2017

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Why are we meant to think Mary is working with BMoL behind D&Ss backs? Do you think it's because she sees them as a chance to get her boys out of hunting i.e. to make it unnecessary? Or are we meant to think she approves of their methods

Because at the end of First Blood she "listened" to the BMoL. It sure felt like she was buying what they were selling and I'm guessing she didn't tell Sam and Dean because this show loves the secrets and lies angst. But, it could be she told them and they told her to be cautious or something? I really don't know.

11 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Hey, @DittyDotDot, you may get to see the vampire ray gun the BMoL were talking about! :-D

Hee!!! A girl can only dream! ;)

Edited February 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

goldy · February 11, 2017

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Why are we meant to think Mary is working with BMoL behind D&Ss backs? Do you think it's because she sees them as a chance to get her boys out of hunting i.e. to make it unnecessary? Or are we meant to think she approves of their methods

When Mick talk to Mary and try to make her join the BMOL he tells her;

"Let me paint you a picture of a world without monsters or demons or any of those little buggers that go bump in the night. Of a world where no one has to die because of the supernatural. Of a new world, a better world".

So. I'm guessing that she wants a better world for her sons, one where they won't have to risk their lives and be hunters anymore.

Aeryn13 · February 11, 2017

Quote

I wonder where Dean will be. This was the ep that was filming while he was off with the twins.

I think he`ll be in it but probably just minimally. Ep 14 is the one they start before Christmas hiatus and finish in the new year and I think he was there for a day or two. I mean the "Sammy the Vampire Slayer" tagline pretty much says it all. Too bad, I like Dean in vampire eps for the most part.

Darkblood8 · February 11, 2017

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Too bad, I like Dean in vampire eps for the most part.

I'm dreading this one. I get that Jensen should have time with his family but I wish they picked a different monster. Vampires have always been Dean's thing and if anyone is a vampire slayer it's him. Plus, I'm calling it now, Sam is going to kill the Alpha (probably with the ray gun). Given Dean's history with him, I hoped he would have gotten the kill. Given Berens is writing this one, I expect Red Meat:2 the reckoning (wasn't a fan of Red Meat).

shang yiet · February 11, 2017

Quote

Sammy the vampire slayer

Is this the annual Samcentric episode I've been waiting for? Hope so. Please let Sam be smart and competent and badass. No more Samsel in distress. I like the Alpha Vamp too.

catrox14 · February 11, 2017

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think he`ll be in it but probably just minimally. Ep 14 is the one they start before Christmas hiatus and finish in the new year and I think he was there for a day or two. I mean the "Sammy the Vampire Slayer" tagline pretty much says it all. Too bad, I like Dean in vampire eps for the most part.

I dunno, sometimes these episode titles don't entirely reflect the episode content. Sam, Interruoted and Regarding Dean were as much about Dean and Sam, respectively as the named character in the title of the episode. So it's possible Sam is lured by the use of the irradiation thing and it has unforeseen consequences.

It is kind of interesting to think about all monsters being killed so easily. Would it upset the balance of the universe? Chuck didn't seem to have a problem with monsters and demons roaming the earth when theoretically he could just kill them all, so why do they still exist? Are they actually some of Chucks failures or Amara's creations?

Aeryn13 · February 11, 2017

Quote

I dunno, sometimes these episode titles don't entirely reflect the episode content.

Oh, it`s not the title. The title of the ep is "The Raid", the "Sammy the vampire slayer" is apparently the tagline the promo department gave it.

Geordiegirl1967 · February 11, 2017

2 hours ago, Darkblood8 said:

Vampires have always been Dean's thing and if anyone is a vampire slayer it's him. Plus, I'm calling it now, Sam is going to kill the Alpha (probably with the ray gun). Given Dean's history with him, I hoped he would have gotten the kill.

Dean has got nearly ALL the major kills in the series; Azazel, Abbadon, Cain, Dick Roman, Zachariah, The Whore of Babylon, Eve, even Hitler!! He was also the one sent to kill God's sister though it turned out not to be necessary. Sam has killed Alastair (albeit under the influence of demon blood) and Lilith (ditto and it turned out to be a bad idea) and put Lucifer in the cage with Dean's help. I can't think of many others, and those that do spring to mind were in the demon blood days of s4 and 5 (eg Samhaim and Famine). I love Dean, so I am not complaining. However in the interests of balance Sam has made very few out-and-out victory kills of serious big bads compared to Dean. So if he gets this one that won't bother me.

Also what is Dean's specific history with Alpha Vamp separate from Sam's?

catrox14 · February 11, 2017

30 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, it`s not the title. The title of the ep is "The Raid", the "Sammy the vampire slayer" is apparently the tagline the promo department gave it.

OHHHH thanks for clearing that up. Well, either way, my point still stands. LOL I hate it when the promo monkeys do that shit.

2Old2BAFangirl · February 11, 2017

Quote

38 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Also what is Dean's specific history with Alpha Vamp separate from Sam's?

I think Dean's separate history with the Alpha Vamp is that Dean was a vampire himself in S6.

If it turns out Sam gets that particular kill this episode, I won't mind. I agree Sam hasn't really gotten many of the "big kills".

catrox14 · February 11, 2017

38 minutes ago, 2Old2BAFangirl said:

I think Dean's separate history with the Alpha Vamp is that Dean was a vampire himself in S6

I agree. Dean could sense where the Alpha Vamp was because of him having been a vampire. Dean was connected to him, literally.

Darkblood8 · February 11, 2017

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Also what is Dean's specific history with Alpha Vamp separate from Sam's?

The Alpha's recruitment drive was the final nail for Lisa and Ben. Also, lying about the alpha was one of the sore spots between Dean, Sam and the Campbell's. Add to that the Alpha being inside Dean's head and that's more than enough for Dean to want to end him.

Vampire's have usually been Dean's thing. He was one, one of his best friends was one and they even called him Buffy in bloodlines. I liked that it kind of gave him a specialty that the others on the show didn't have (kind of like Sam's psychic/soulless specialties). I would have been equally disappointed if they had followed through with giving Sam the mark of Cain.

So yes, I would prefer the monsters to be ghouls or werewolves. However, if the alpha goes down, hopefully it will be by one of the brothers and not the MoL, Mary or whatever character they want to show is just as tough as Sam and Dean (and no ray guns).

ahrtee · February 11, 2017

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Dean has got nearly ALL the major kills in the series; Azazel, Abbadon, Cain, Dick Roman, Zachariah, The Whore of Babylon, Eve, even Hitler!! He was also the one sent to kill God's sister though it turned out not to be necessary. Sam has killed Alastair (albeit under the influence of demon blood) and Lilith (ditto and it turned out to be a bad idea) and put Lucifer in the cage with Dean's help.

Well, to be fair, most of Dean's big kills you mentioned were also done with help or under the influence of something or were Really Bad Ideas (like Sam's demon blood): Abbadon and Cain were from the First Blade/MoC; The Whore of Babylon was Dean deciding to throw his lot in with the angels, and he was just going to be the vessel to deliver the bomb to Amara. He couldn't have killed Azazel without John's help or Dick Roman without Sam (to get the weapon) and Cas to distract Dick, and killing Zachariah and Eve were hail-mary passes, and should have killed him (or burned out his eyes) instead. So probably Hitler is the only kill that was all his (maybe that's why he's so proud of it!) Sam's kills, while bad ideas, were all planned and executed by him with no outside help (except Ruby?)

Having said all that, (not to be taken too seriously, please!) while I wouldn't be surprised to have Sam (or Mary, or the MoL) kill the Alpha Vamp, I'd much rather it be Dean, not because he needs another kill, but because of the connection Dean and the Alpha have (actually, a mutual respect among the loathing.)

Actually--another thought, because of that respect: what if the BMoL are trying to capture/torture the Alpha Vamp and Dean stops them? That would certainly create some interesting possibilities...

MysteryGuest · February 11, 2017

I have no real preference over who kills the Alpha Vamp. What's going to potentially bother me is how they do it. I know we're going to have to see more of them working with the BMOL before they realize just how evil they are, but I really hate the idea of these killing machines they have, and I won't like seeing Sam or Dean use them.

We haven't been given any info on whether Mary is just a one-off this season, or whether she's here to stay, so her being involved with the BMOL is making me nervous. I don't trust them. We may not truly worry about either Sam or Dean being killed, but Mary is an unknown. I'm not sure I want to watch her die, mainly because I don't want to have to watch Sam and Dean lose someone else.

SueB · February 12, 2017

Well, I hope the Alpha Vamp doesn't die.

Geordiegirl1967 · February 12, 2017

6 hours ago, 2Old2BAFangirl said:

Quote

7 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Also what is Dean's specific history with Alpha Vamp separate from Sam's?

I think Dean's separate history with the Alpha Vamp is that Dean was a vampire himself in S6.

I think Dean's 'connection' with the Alpha Vamp is being overstated. Dean was a vampire for a hot minute. And what he heard while in that state was only what all vampires were hearing at that time from the Alpha. Every other interaction with AV I can think of involved Dean and Sam equally. And Sam, with the other Campbells, had been pursuing him and other alphas for a year while Dean was retired. So Sam could also claim a connection.

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, to be fair, most of Dean's big kills you mentioned were also done with help or under the influence of something or were Really Bad Ideas (like Sam's demon blood): Abbadon and Cain were from the First Blade/MoC; The Whore of Babylon was Dean deciding to throw his lot in with the angels, and he was just going to be the vessel to deliver the bomb to Amara. He couldn't have killed Azazel without John's help or Dick Roman without Sam (to get the weapon) and Cas to distract Dick, and killing Zachariah and Eve were hail-mary passes, and should have killed him (or burned out his eyes) instead. So probably Hitler is the only kill that was all his (maybe that's why he's so proud of it!) Sam's kills, while bad ideas, were all planned and executed by him with no outside help (except Ruby?)

I know I mentioned that most of Sam's kills were 'under the influence', and your points are valid in that regard as the same does apply to some of Dean's kills, but that wasn't really my point. I was referring to someone saying they wanted it to be Dean who killed the Alpha Vamp, so my point was about balance. Regardless of motivation, or whether kills were helped by others or by supernatural powers (demon blood/MoC), Dean has made far more of the big bad kills, to the point that it is pretty uneven IMO. To me Dean and Sam are a team, so I give Sam some of the credit for Dick Roman and Dean for Lucifer. But still the final blow has almost always come from Dean. If Sam got a big scalp to add to his, relatively small, collection I would be fine with that.

DittyDotDot · February 12, 2017

I don't care who kills who or what, but I really want to see this vampire ray gun. It's gotta be ridiculous...because the whole notion is ridiculous. ;)

Geordiegirl1967 · February 12, 2017

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't care who kills who or what, but I really want to see this vampire ray gun. It's gotta be ridiculous...because the whole notion is ridiculous. ;)

Has this been a spoiler? I haven't heard anything about it. Is it a BMoL weapon?

catrox14 · February 12, 2017

Mr. Ketch said they irradiate the vampires and it alters their DNA making their own blood deadly to them.

DittyDotDot · February 12, 2017

4 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Has this been a spoiler? I haven't heard anything about it. Is it a BMoL weapon?

Not a spoiler, just a bad joke. Back in LOTUS, the BMoL said they don't decapitate vampires, they irradiate them and make their blood deadly to them. I recently read this review of LOTUS: http://www.tvguide.com/news/supernaturals-mid-season-finale-lotus-recap/ and it got me chuckling quite a bit and thinking about it more.

bearcatfan · February 12, 2017

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Mr. Ketch said they irradiate the vampires and it alters their DNA making their own blood deadly to them.

I wonder if that means that the death is slow. If so, how slow? I can see Sam and Dean having an issue with a more torturous death, especially considering the alpha vamp did help them with that Leviathan problem a few seasons back.

ahrtee · February 12, 2017

2 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I wonder if that means that the death is slow. If so, how slow? I can see Sam and Dean having an issue with a more torturous death, especially considering the alpha vamp did help them with that Leviathan problem a few seasons back.

That's kind of what I was thinking of in my comment above, about Dean not wanting the BMoL to kill the Alpha Vamp. I can see him balking at torture (the way he objected to Grandpa torturing the Alphas he caught); having said that, Dean didn't seem to have a problem using "vamptonite" on the stunt vamps, which also burned them from the inside out. So who knows? I'm pretty sure the writers would block that out of their minds if they wanted to manufacture a reason for a fight, and I could see that being a being a breaking point for the boys to find out how psychopathic Mr. Ketch actually is so they will become enemies.

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

think Dean's 'connection' with the Alpha Vamp is being overstated. Dean was a vampire for a hot minute. And what he heard while in that state was only what all vampires were hearing at that time from the Alpha. Every other interaction with AV I can think of involved Dean and Sam equally. And Sam, with the other Campbells, had been pursuing him and other alphas for a year while Dean was retired. So Sam could also claim a connection.

All valid points; but it's possible that Sam and the Campbells pursuing the Alpha for that year might have made him less kindly inclined towards Sam; whereas he himself acknowledged his connection to Dean: From Family Matters transcript: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=6.07_Family_Matters_(Transcript):

Alpha Vampire: How can I help you?

Dean: We got some questions for you, skippy, since you're going nowhere fast.

[The Alpha Vampire chuckles]

Alpha Vampire: Don't be so sure.

Dean: Yeah? Locked down pretty tight. And with all that dead blood rushing through your veins, not sure you got enough juice to fire up that psychic bat-signal of yours, do you?

Alpha Vampire: True. Not near enough juice for that... Dean.

Dean: I didn't realize we were on a first-name basis.

Alpha Vampire: Of course we are. After all, you were my child... for a time. Dean, tell me... did you enjoy it?

3 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I know I mentioned that most of Sam's kills were 'under the influence', and your points are valid in that regard as the same does apply to some of Dean's kills, but that wasn't really my point. I was referring to someone saying they wanted it to be Dean who killed the Alpha Vamp, so my point was about balance. Regardless of motivation, or whether kills were helped by others or by supernatural powers (demon blood/MoC), Dean has made far more of the big bad kills, to the point that it is pretty uneven IMO. To me Dean and Sam are a team, so I give Sam some of the credit for Dick Roman and Dean for Lucifer. But still the final blow has almost always come from Dean. If Sam got a big scalp to add to his, relatively small, collection I would be fine with that.

I think we've had this discussion in this forum before, and I'm pretty sure Demented Daisy crunched the numbers that showed that they were pretty equal in kills. It's true that Dean has had more of the "big" kills (though IMO always with help) but Sam tends to get more of the smaller but more valuable (from my POV) "Save Dean" kills, often while Dean is cowering in a corner with his hands over his face (one of my pet peeves.)

But I think there's one other point many people don't really take into account: the family motto: "Saving People, Hunting Things." I think Sam has more wins in terms of "saving people," Dean more with "hunting things." They set that up way back in season 1, partly because Sam was supposed to be kind of rusty at hunting, so Dean was the better hunter; but when Sam started feeling the need for redemption, "saving people" became his main cause, and the reason he and Dean butted heads so much.

As the seasons went on, Sam became superhunter and so they were equal in the "hunting things" department, but Sam was still usually the one trying to save vs. kill, just like he tried to save all the civilians from Amara's poison fog. So IMO that's just as valid to the family business as big kills. YMMV.

After all that, I don't really care who kills the Alpha Vamp, though I have a feeling it might be Mary or the BMoL just to avoid the very argument you're making.

rue721 · February 12, 2017

Oh jeez what if Mary becomes a vampire, and then the BMOL kill her?

Darkblood8 · February 12, 2017

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But I think there's one other point many people don't really take into account: the family motto: "Saving People, Hunting Things." I think Sam has more wins in terms of "saving people," Dean more with "hunting things." They set that up way back in season 1, partly because Sam was supposed to be kind of rusty at hunting, so Dean was the better hunter; but when Sam started feeling the need for redemption, "saving people" became his main cause, and the reason he and Dean butted heads so much.

I never really thought about it that way but you are exactly right. It seems like Dean needs the hunt more than Sam. For Sam it's more of a job with the goal being to save as many lives as possible. For Dean it's much more personal. Dean's in it until he dies. Sam is in it until Dean dies.

Back to the Alpha Vamp, I hope he survives too but the synopsis doesn't look good. If the actor was available I think he could be a really great season long big bad. I always wished they had gathered the Alpha, Kali, Doc Benton and some random monsters that got away and formed a supernatural Legion of Doom. But if the Alpha does go, I still hope it's by Dean or Sam.

Demented Daisy · February 12, 2017

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think we've had this discussion in this forum before, and I'm pretty sure Demented Daisy crunched the numbers that showed that they were pretty equal in kills. It's true that Dean has had more of the "big" kills (though IMO always with help) but Sam tends to get more of the smaller but more valuable (from my POV) "Save Dean" kills, often while Dean is cowering in a corner with his hands over his face (one of my pet peeves.)

But I think there's one other point many people don't really take into account: the family motto: "Saving People, Hunting Things." I think Sam has more wins in terms of "saving people," Dean more with "hunting things." They set that up way back in season 1, partly because Sam was supposed to be kind of rusty at hunting, so Dean was the better hunter; but when Sam started feeling the need for redemption, "saving people" became his main cause, and the reason he and Dean butted heads so much.

As the seasons went on, Sam became superhunter and so they were equal in the "hunting things" department, but Sam was still usually the one trying to save vs. kill, just like he tried to save all the civilians from Amara's poison fog. So IMO that's just as valid to the family business as big kills. YMMV.

Here you go. For those unfamiliar with my process, I count the episodes, not the number of people saved/monsters killed. (For example, Sam got the only kill in 42 episodes. "Joint kills" mean that both Sam and Dean killed in the episode.) If you want to see the breakdown of each individual season, start with page 23 of the Bitterness thread.

I've also done the first half of season 12, but I haven't added those numbers to the tallies yet.

On 8/17/2016 at 2:12 PM, Demented Daisy said:

Which brings our new tallies, for all 11 seasons, to:

Sam Plans -- 51
Sam Saves -- 36
Sam Kills -- 42

Dean Plans -- 33
Dean Saves -- 40
Dean Kills -- 58 (plus 4 in Purgatory)

Joint Plans -- 56
Joint Saves -- 64
Joint Kills -- 28

No Plan -- 99
No Save -- 101
No Kill -- 114

Really, to me, things are about even. Sam has the lead in plans, while Dean has a slight lead in saves and a larger lead in kills (again, thank you, Mark of Cain -- take those kills out and Sam and Dean are essentially tied in that category).

Oh, and even more importantly: more often than not, they have a plan, they save people, and they kill the baddie. Though that no kill number is getting awfully close (128 kills vs 114 no kills).

Geordiegirl1967 · February 12, 2017

59 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Here you go. For those unfamiliar with my process, I count the episodes, not the number of people saved/monsters killed. (For example, Sam got the only kill in 42 episodes. "Joint kills" mean that both Sam and Dean killed in the episode.) If you want to see the breakdown of each individual season, start with page 23 of the Bitterness thread.

And this is why I love the Supernatural fandom! It is so great that people take the time to analyse the show in this depth.

Your analysis raises all sorts of interesting questions which I'm sure you've already discussed to death (the price of being a newbie). Though I still think my very specific point, about the balance of 'big bad' kills, stands. Dean is very much in the lead there.

Great analysis. I love me some facts. Thanks.

Demented Daisy · February 12, 2017

http://ew.com/tv/2017/02/10/spoiler-room-flash-once-upon-time-arrow/?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

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Anything on Gavin’s return to Supernatural? —Tim
Gavin’s return will happen very soon, and his arrival will have quite an effect on Rowena. According to Ruth Connell, she had a little bit of trouble rationalizing Rowena’s actions in that hour: “I was like, really? She really just did that?!” I’m not sure what exactly goes down, but Connell did say “it’s to do with Gavin coming back and her having a grandson, so there’s a lot more to be found out about Rowena.”

SueB · February 12, 2017

I'm worried that there's too much redemption for Rowena based on Ruth's comment. Then again, she may look at Gavin as a second chance.

Darkblood8 · February 12, 2017

4 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Oh, and even more importantly: more often than not, they have a plan, they save people, and they kill the baddie. Though that no kill number is getting awfully close (128 kills vs 114 no kills).

Let me second this is a great list. I have my own list of monster kills by character but I never considered plans or saves. I think I prefer Dean getting rid of the monsters because it seems to make him so happy. The Hitler kill carried him all the way to reuniting with his Mom. I don't think Sam gets the satisfaction Dean does. Sam just wants the danger ended up to and including a point everyone can retire. Compare that to Dean who's happy place is purgatory and who's main goal in life is to use a grenade launcher. I think Sam knows that too. If you look back over the seasons, whenever they burn a ghost's bones, it's Dean who usually does the burning. Like I said, I think it is something Dean needs (which is why Cain considered him worthy of bearing the mark).

Which brings me to the Grenade Launcher. So far it has been a really funny running gag but I hope they are planning to pay it off. I thought it was a budget thing but it obviously isn't as Mr. Ketch got to use his. I'll give it until the season finale but not using it this season borders on cruelty.

catrox14 · February 12, 2017

I think Rowena redeemed herself by helping save the universe at the end of s11. It might not have wholly changed her personality and witchiness but I don't know what other redemption she needs. I can see her story coming to an end if and when she has full reconciliation with Crowley.

I think she'll see Crowley is just as shitty of a parent as she was and that night give her some leverage against Crowley since he's lorded her failed parenting over her all along when he is just as bad as her. I can see some comedy out of it when Rowena realizes she s a grand mother as in something like I'm too young to be a grand mother etc. Even though she's 300 years old.

goldy · February 13, 2017

A new promo for 12x12

Geordiegirl1967 · February 13, 2017

Wow! Those folks are MUCH better than the official PR dept at putting together exciting trailers. That looks so intense.

auntvi · February 13, 2017

At first I thought that the bad guy was a vampire, but later Sam & Dean trap him with holy fire, so is he an angel or similar creature? Or someone sent by BMoL?

catrox14 · February 14, 2017

So I started breaking down that video.

Some things I noticed:

There are devils trap bullets that I think Dean is putting in his gun.

Dean is using the magical brass knuckles in a fight with the dude with the beard who has a spear of some kind.

Cas is severely wounded and I wonder if it's from the spear the dude is aiming at Dean?

The painting reminds me of the paintings in the Beautiful Room. The painting here looks like an angel killing another angel. So I think maybe the dude with the beard is a Reaper/Death/Archangel and he wants Cas.

Sam gets his head whacked by someone on the porch.

Here is the you tube version

DittyDotDot · February 14, 2017

So, are we to believe this episode might be a cosmic consequence?

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam gets his head whacked by someone on the porch.

Ah, the old wack Sam on the head trick...how retro! ;)

MysteryGuest · February 14, 2017

They absolutely do a much better job at previews than the CW does. Much more dramatic and interesting. It certainly looks like it will be a good episode.

Geordiegirl1967 · February 14, 2017

Maybe the property the bad guy wants back is Cas? He could be a new Reaper come to collect on Billy's deal. They use a holy oil circle and an angel blade to try to trap / kill him implying they think he is an angel or reaper. And in the other clip we see Cas begging the guys to leave him, again implying he is the target. Interesting.

catrox14 · February 14, 2017

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

They absolutely do a much better job at previews than the CW does. Much more dramatic and interesting. It certainly looks like it will be a good episode.

I'm freaking terrified of this episode. If Dabb and Singer are not being teasing asshats, I think something really bad happens to Cas.

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