Spoilers With Speculation

[Myrelle]

I think that scene is going to be before he gets roofied.

I'm trying REAL hard to not have a bad feeling about this one... :-/

Edited February 1, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

After this sneak peek, I also have a bad feeling about this one.  More mopey Sam, and we;re back to Dean can barely read and Sam needs to correct him. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

After this sneak peek, I also have a bad feeling about this one.  More mopey Sam, and we;re back to Dean can barely read and Sam needs to correct him. 

I refuse to believe that Steve Yockey actually wrote this episode. I don't believe it. LOL 

Taking my reply to bitter spoilers

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I am curious though about Cas' return in this episode. I thought that wasn't supposed to happen until 13.13. Hmmm.

My understanding is this is the episode where Cass and the Devil work together--one might even say the Devil strikes a bargain with Cass--to get free from Asemodeus and then the next episode he's reunited with the boys and they go looking for Lucifer who, I imagine only kept up his end of the bargain as long as he had to.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

After this sneak peek, I also have a bad feeling about this one.  More mopey Sam, and we;re back to Dean can barely read and Sam needs to correct him. 

My take on this is that Dean does this stuff on purpose.  While I'm sure he doesn't speak fluent French, I'm going to assume that he would at least recognize the language.  But I think he mispronounces things to the extreme deliberately, rather than trying to affect a foreign accent.  Sam's obviously not in a good mood, so the humor is lost on him, but Dean seems determined to stay in cheerleader mode.  Obviously, Sam's funk continues.

[ILoveReading]

Based on this the various sneak peeks, this one seems pretty paint by the numbers.  I figure we get the teaser scene, then there is the Sam researches, Dean get beer scene.   Then Dean runs into the witch sisters and gets hexed.  They tell him to bring him the book.  He goes back to the bunker to get it.  Sam tries to stop him, and Dean punches Sam.  He takes the book to go meet the sisters.   Sam follows, pulls the gun.  They fight and the hex bag falls out of his pocket.  Rowena arrives and picks it up, then we get the car scene. 

I think Rowena is behind the whole thing from the start.

Quote

y take on this is that Dean does this stuff on purpose.  While I'm sure he doesn't speak fluent French, I'm going to assume that he would at least recognize the language.  But I think he mispronounces things to the extreme deliberately, rather than trying to affect a foreign accent.  Sam's obviously not in a good mood, so the humor is lost on him, but Dean seems determined to stay in cheerleader mode.  Obviously, Sam's funk continues.

I wish I could buy this explanation, but he happens far to often and they seemed to stop counter balancing it with smart Dean moments.  I really beleive this is how the writers see Dean.   But I feel like I'm getting into bitch vs jerk so I'll just agree to disagree with this.

Edited February 1, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

My understanding is this is the episode where Cass and the Devil work together--one might even say the Devil strikes a bargain with Cass--to get free from Asemodeus and then the next episode he's reunited with the boys and they go looking for Lucifer who, I imagine only kept up his end of the bargain as long as he had to.

13.12 is tonight's episode entitled Various and Sundry Villains. 13.13 is next week titled Devil's Bargain with Daneel, Misha and Mark P.

I don't remember seeing any spoilers that Cas would be in tonight's episode of 13.12 which is my "HMMMM".

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Based on this the various sneak peeks, this one seems pretty paint by the numbers.  I figure we get the teaser scene, then there is the Sam researches, Dean get beer scene.   Then Dean runs into the witch sisters and gets hexed.  They tell him to bring him the book.  He goes back to the bunker to get it.  Sam tries to stop him, and Dean punches Sam.  He takes the book to go meet the sisters.   Sam follows, pulls the gun.  They fight and the hex bag falls out of his pocket.  Rowena arrives and picks it up, then we get the car scene. 

I think Rowena is behind the whole thing from the start.

That's been my assumption all along.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

13.12 is tonight's episode entitled Various and Sundry Villains. 13.13 is next week titled Devil's Bargain with Daneel, Misha and Mark P.

I don't remember seeing any spoilers that Cas would be in tonight's episode of 13.12 which is my "HMMMM".

That's been my assumption all along.

So I think the roofie spell is going to be pretty much gone by the first commerical break and if not then by the back half of the episode.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

13.12 is tonight's episode entitled Various and Sundry Villains. 13.13 is next week titled Devil's Bargain with Daneel, Misha and Mark P.

I don't remember seeing any spoilers that Cas would be in tonight's episode of 13.12 which is my "HMMMM".

I seem to remember one of the episode descriptions released for Various and Sundry Villains was that Cass and Lucifer work together to get free from Asemodeus. I also remember seeing Cass was listed as a "YES" on the spoiler sheet from http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/162826766658/supernatural-season-13-spoiler-sheet at least a month ago. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I seem to remember one of the episode descriptions released for Various and Sundry Villains was that Cass and Lucifer work together to get free from Asemodeus. I also remember seeing Cass was listed as a "YES" on the spoiler sheet from http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/162826766658/supernatural-season-13-spoiler-sheet at least a month ago. 

Oh good. Thanks for sharing that. Obviously, as I stated, I didn't recollect any spoilers on that. The official episode description released by the CW made no mention  of Cas and and Lucifer being in 13.12. So clearly that is new information for me.  Thanks for updating me.

Quote

HE WITCH IS BACK – Dean (Jensen Ackles) falls victim to a couple of witches, sisters Jamie (guest star Jordan Clair Robbins) and Jennie Plum (guest star Elise Gatien), who manage to steal a powerful book of spells from the Winchester brothers. When Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean go after the book, they get help from a powerful and surprising ally when Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell), back from the dead, intervenes to assist them. Amanda Tapping directed the episode written by Steve Yockey (#1312). Original airdate 2/1/2018.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

13.12 is tonight's episode entitled Various and Sundry Villains. 13.13 is next week titled Devil's Bargain with Daneel, Misha and Mark P.

I don't remember seeing any spoilers that Cas would be in tonight's episode of 13.12 which is my "HMMMM".

That's been my assumption all along.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is yet another episode with a blink and you miss it appearance of Castiel i.e. we see him in Asmodeus’ jail for a brief scene maybe two. 

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is yet another episode with a blink and you miss it appearance of Castiel i.e. we see him in Asmodeus’ jail for a brief scene maybe two. 

My theory? Since the next episode description has Cass looking for Lucifer--which indicates Cass is no longer Asemodeus' prisoner--I think Asemodeus is going to try to impersonate Cass and it fail. But, in the meantime, he'll have left his useless minions in charge of Cass and Lucifer and I think they take advantage of his absence to escape. I don't think it will be a big part of the episode, but I think it'll be more than a blink this time...I guess only time will tell.

Edited February 1, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

Brought over from the Various and Sundry Villains thread:

22 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm so worried they are setting Sam up to have let a dangerous Rowena on the world.* And that Dean's going to have to fix that mess despite Sam vowing that he'll take care of it. Because now that Dean has taken over the optimism, I'm worried Sam's not going to have much of a role here at all - since that's usually Sam's role to be the one to have hope that they'll find a way.

Hopefully I'm worrying for nothing, but I guess we'll see.

I think you wouldn't be you if you didn't worry about TPTB setting Sam up! :)  However, in this case, I think you can probably relax.  For one thing, Rowena is (apparently) a fan (and PTB) fave, so I don't think they're going to make her Evil.  (Bad, sure, in an entertaining way--like Crowley--but not capital-E Evil. :) )

To me,  that last scene of Rowena was confusing, to say the least.  Does she now have angel grace?  The white/blue eyes looked more angel-like than demonic (even white-eyed demons) and that definitely looked like grace of some kind.  But she can't be an angel (at least, not if they stick to canon, and especially the part that explained why the angels want Jack:  because only he can make more angels.)  

What occurred to me was her eyes, which IMO looked kind of like Asmodeus's--neither angel or demon but something in between.

So my spec is that Rowena will eventually be the one to kill Asmodeus. 

They've built him up into super villain, and showed he's a match for Lucifer (much less two humans and a minor angel.)  Michael could probably take him, but it seems he's not going to be interested in anyone but his brother--and I get the impression archangels don't consider any demons, no matter how powerful, to be worth any thought.  Sam and Dean have (or *should have*) run out of their "do something stupid in order to get powerful enough to kill the uber-powerful being" cards.   (At least I hope TPTB have retired that trope!)  

So I think it's Rowena's turn, since she's pretty much the only continuing character left  who *hasn't*  gotten a supernatural power boost in order to defeat an "undefeatable" foe.  The spell should have made her more powerful than any angels or demon, if she's now more powerful  than (or at least invulnerable to) Lucifer.  So I'm guessing they'll make it look like she's gone bad, just to worry those fans (hi, there!) who are expecting Sam to be proven wrong for trusting her.  The boys won't know which side she's on (but are expecting her to be evil) until the last minute.  And she'll go up against Asmodeus.  Who wins will depend on what they're planning to do with next season, if there is one.  

As for worrying that Sam won't have any role--well, if he and Dean are reversing optimist/pessimist roles, he should have at least as much importance as Dean has had in the past!

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think you wouldn't be you if you didn't worry about TPTB setting Sam up! :) 

Hee! But to be fair, I'm sometimes right... I called the season 10 catastrophe many episodes before it happened. And Sam's visions actually being Lucifer right off the bat (after the first vision)... The BMoL I didn't have to predict, because they pretty much laid out that the BMoL were bad news from the start, so having Sam buy the "oh, Lady She'sNotGoodEnoughToRememberHerName was just a rogue, we're not like that, really, really*" and join them was just stupid.

* And because I'm sometimes just not right, I'm imagining that "really, really" in a Kinko the Clown voice... and that's an entirely demented, not-politically-correct reference. My youth was corrupted by listening to the Dr. Demento show on Sunday nights. Heh.

29 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

They've built him up into super villain, and showed he's a match for Lucifer (much less two humans and a minor angel.)  Michael could probably take him, but it seems he's not going to be interested in anyone but his brother--and I get the impression archangels don't consider any demons, no matter how powerful, to be worth any thought.  Sam and Dean have (or *should have*) run out of their "do something stupid in order to get powerful enough to kill the uber-powerful being" cards.   (At least I hope TPTB have retired that trope!) 

You and me both!

31 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So I'm guessing they'll make it look like she's gone bad, just to worry those fans (hi, there!) who are expecting Sam to be proven wrong for trusting her.  The boys won't know which side she's on (but are expecting her to be evil) until the last minute.  And she'll go up against Asmodeus.  Who wins will depend on what they're planning to do with next season, if there is one.  

Interesting idea. From what the writing this last episode seemed to be setting up for me, I wouldn't have guessed Rowena vs Asmodeus. I'm kind of expecting Lucifer to be the one to go after Asmodeus, because 1) He doesn't like demons really 2) He holds a grudge like nobody's business 3) He doesn't like people crossing him. I couldn't imagine him wanting to leave Asmodeus to Rowena. I would suspect Rowena - who doesn't like to be made to feel worthless by a man - to want to go after Lucifer herself for doing that to her - twice. I could actually see her trying to team up with Asmodeus to defeat Lucifer and then leaving that burning ship to save herself if - more likely when - that ship starts sinking. I could actually see her being somewhat charmed by Asmodeus' smarmy self... or at least thinking she could charm him. She doesn't exactly have the best taste in men... well Oscar was nice - but she killed him.

But this is just all guessing on my part and most likely wrong.

Heh it might be funny if Rowena's only power that she got from the spell is that she can't be hurt by demons or angels. I say that, because I have a character like that in one of my fanfics. She's otherwise normal and has no special skills or powers except that - and she got that somewhat accidentally from Jesse, the anti-Christ (long story).

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Interesting idea. From what the writing this last episode seemed to be setting up for me, I wouldn't have guessed Rowena vs Asmodeus. I'm kind of expecting Lucifer to be the one to go after Asmodeus, because 1) He doesn't like demons really 2) He holds a grudge like nobody's business 3) He doesn't like people crossing him. I couldn't imagine him wanting to leave Asmodeus to Rowena. I would suspect Rowena - who doesn't like to be made to feel worthless by a man - to want to go after Lucifer herself for doing that to her - twice. I could actually see her trying to team up with Asmodeus to defeat Lucifer and then leaving that burning ship to save herself if - more likely when - that ship starts sinking. I could actually see her being somewhat charmed by Asmodeus' smarmy self... or at least thinking she could charm him. She doesn't exactly have the best taste in men... well Oscar was nice - but she killed him.

Yeah, your thinking makes sense.  In a normal world, I can see Lucifer killing Asmodeus for the reasons you say.  Rowena definitely wants to be the one to kill Lucifer, and it would certainly be satisfying for her fans/to give her a winning arc.)  But if she can kill Lucifer (when even Amara couldn't--or was she just playing with him?) that would make her too powerful to be a continuing character. 

And there's still Michael, who, according to everything we've seen/heard, is laser-focused on Lucifer.  Unless Asmodeus is already out of the way, there will be too many trying to kill Lucifer (and not enough aiming at the Winchesters.)  They need to narrow down the field a little and threaten our heroes more.  

In the Michael-Lucifer-Asmodeus triangle, Asmodeus is the weakest link.  So while Michael and Lucifer are in the middle of a family feud, I can see all kinds of underhanded alliances/betrayals in the background.  Rowena would most likely try to deal with Asmodeus if she finds out she can't kill Lucifer on her own.  Sam and Dean will believe that Rowena has joined forces with Asmodeus and is fighting against them.  But I can see her saving Sam and Dean by killing Asmodeus (a Prince of Hell!) and proving that she's at least as much a frenemy as Crowley (and keeping her in the picture for next year...)  

But yeah, just pure spec at this point, brought on by that glimpse of Rowena's glowing eyes.  

[AwesomO4000]

40 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

  But I can see her saving Sam and Dean by killing Asmodeus (a Prince of Hell!) and proving that she's at least as much a frenemy as Crowley (and keeping her in the picture for next year...)  

Yeah, I think that I could see this scenario as well... Or one where Rowena would need to kill Asmodeus and it just also happened to help or save Sam and Dean too... so she can get "I helped" points.

[Lemuria]

I have to say that I really, really hate what they've done with the witches in this show.  I have no problem with witches (or mages or sorcerers or whatever you want to call them) being at or near the top of the food chain in regard to other supernatural creatures.  On the other hand, I have major problems when you make them more powerful than angels, demons and leviathans.  Those three should be way above a witch's pay grade.  JMO.

[MysteryGuest]

12 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I have to say that I really, really hate what they've done with the witches in this show.  I have no problem with witches (or mages or sorcerers or whatever you want to call them) being at or near the top of the food chain in regard to other supernatural creatures.  On the other hand, I have major problems when you make them more powerful than angels, demons and leviathans.  Those three should be way above a witch's pay grade.  JMO.

Sadly, on this show, the powers of monsters, witches, demons and angels wax and wane, depending on the plot.  I don't think that it's really ever been consistent.  Cas is our shining example.  If they need him to bring someone back from the dead, or teleport from place to place, he's their man.  But in the next episode, seemingly, he'll have no powers at all.  The problem is that they can't have these super beings around all the time, because then there's no point in having Sam and Dean.  But they also can't have just Sam and Dean, because as simple humans, there's no way they'd be able to overcome the various world-ending crises they've encountered...or created.  It's a pickle.  As far as a power hierarchy, that's an interesting question.

On this show, I'd have thought that God would be the most powerful, but he seemed to be easily bested by Amara, so I'm not so sure.  I guess next would be Lucifer (at full power) and Michael.  After that, I'm not at all sure.  The Leviathans seemed indestructible until it was discovered that floor cleaner could do the trick.  That's pretty funny when you think about it.

Edited February 3, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 The Leviathans seemed indestructible

I think in the witch episode with James Marsters and Charisma Carpenter, they also used their witchy powers to basically wipe the Leviathans away. 

The power structure is pretty wonky with witches these days. On Vampire Diaries ultimately witches were the most powerful force because they create all other supernatural creatures through spells and thus could also defeat/de-power/over-power them with other spells. On SPN the top of the food chain seems to be God/Amara. After that the archangels? Then it`s anyone`s guess. 

Cain was able to easily best Cas which I think was due to the Mark of Cain which seemed to carry trace amounts of Amara or be connected to her so that power level makes sense. 

In earlier episodes witches seemed to be humans who made some kinds of pacts with demons, not Crossroad but something else maybe. And while they could be powerful, they were at best middle-of-the-road compared to supernatural heavy-weights. 

No idea where they are going with Rowena with unlimited power. If she is gonna be an easy fix for supernatural problems like Michael? Would seem like a rather uninspired deus ex machina.  

[ILoveReading]

Promo photos for ep 13.

[Pondlass1]

It's all got a bit tangled in terms of particular powers of particular supernatural beings, hasn't it?.  I have a personal and crazy hope for the righteous man Dean to somehow become Michael and be special and extraordinary and mythical himself and defeat Lucifer and put him back in the cage.  I fantasize of a supernatural battle with clashing swords and blades and armour. Both Jensen and Mark P are physical guys, blessed with an abundance of coordination and grace.  It'd be so phenomenal. 

But of course it'll never happen.  However the expressions on Cas' face tell me something's going on there and now we have Rowena with the blue eyes.   Asmodeus has the misfortune to talk/look like the KFC guy so doesn't carry much weight and I don't think he'll figure much in the final battle.

And Jack?  What of Jack?

Anyway they'll all  come together each with their own set of powers before the season's end.  Maybe the writers need a whiteboard so they can keep a list of who can do what.  It should end with a super supernatural battle - spend some of that budget.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Pondlass1

[catrox14]

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/01/supernatural-episode-1313-devils.htm

The one thing that will really irk me is if Sister Jo kills Lucifer.  I mean I HATE Lucifer and I want him dead but if the Horrible Duo give her the kill, I'm gonna be really aggravated. It needs to be Cas, Jack, Dean, Sam, Rowena, or Michael since it wasn't Crowley. 

Quote

lSUPERNATURAL
“Devil’s Bargain” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

DANNEEL ACKLES GUEST STARS – Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Castiel (Misha Collins) search for Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) who, meanwhile, strikes an unlikely deal with a local faith healer named Sister Jo (guest star Danneel Ackles). Asmodeus (guest star Jeffrey Vincent Parise) inches closer to finding Jack (Alexander Calvert). Eduardo Sanchez directed the episode written by Eugenie Ross-Leming & Brad Buckner (#1313). Original airdate 2/8/2018.

[SueB]

I'm 'Team Rowena' for killing Lucifer. I'm going with the "Sister Jo is a fallen angel" theory and that Lucifer tries to take her grace (having failed to get it from Cas, it makes sense he's looking for someone on earth who he can take their grace).  I don't think Sister Jo has the power to kill Lucifer.

[MysteryGuest]

18 hours ago, SueB said:

I'm 'Team Rowena' for killing Lucifer. I'm going with the "Sister Jo is a fallen angel" theory and that Lucifer tries to take her grace (having failed to get it from Cas, it makes sense he's looking for someone on earth who he can take their grace).  I don't think Sister Jo has the power to kill Lucifer.

I agree with you.  I don't think Sister Jo will take out Lucifer.  My guess it will be a combination of Rowena, Jack, Cas and the boys.  Although who am I kidding...Lucifer is never going away!  

I'm really hoping that whatever this power up did to Rowena, it doesn't make her completely evil again.  I enjoy her role as reluctant ally to Sam and Dean.  They have good chemistry together.  They're going to have to bring Michael into the mix fairly soon, if he's supposed to be the ultimate big bad of the season.  At this point, he's had just a couple of scenes, and we've really not seen much of his power.  My personal hope is that when he does come to our world, he disposes of Colonel Sanders as his first kill.  I just don't want that character carrying over to next season.  I'm sure the actor is a perfectly nice man, but he's like nails on a blackboard for me in this role.

There do seem to be an awful lot of major loose threads this season.  I don't really see how Jack can hang around on earth.  He's ultimately going to be too powerful.  I think he'll end up putting Heaven back into some semblance of order.  Mary has surprisingly been a non-entity.  It's almost as if they don't really know what to do with her.  There are just too many characters in play.  Why the felt the need to add to that list by bringing Ketch back makes zero sense to me.  At this point, I can't really see how they wrap this all up neatly by the end of the season, which means we'll get some carryover into next year.  I wish we knew what the end game for the show was.  I wonder if they're waiting to see how the spin off does before making any final decisions about SPN?  So many questions...

Edited February 4, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Wayward Son]

I was just looking at the spoiler sheet and 

Episode 13x15  

Title: A Most Holy Man

Written by: Andrew Dabb & Robert Singer

Director:  Amanda Tapping

Filming Dates: January 15 - January 24 

Airdate: March 8

Castiel?  Probably not

Guest stars:

Other Spoilers/info (newest to oldest):

J2 filmed several scenes on location, one at a coffee/sandwhich shop
Only j2 have been spotted on location and it looks like Misha has been at home, so our odd for him in the episode are low…
Location filming was done at night in the rain.
Orlando convention to occur during filming.
 

With the confirmation that Misha won't be in this episode, or if by some chance he is it won't be enough for an episode intended to be Cas centric IMO it's all but confirmed the title is in relation to Dean. Cas won't be in it so it isn't some sort of reference to him. Although since he's an angel the descriptor 'Holy Man' never fit him anyway. Sam's supernatural role has always been portrayed as unholy if anything - demon blood, vessel of Lucifer. While Dean's the one who has the whole 'righteous man' mythology around him. Although it's not something I particularly want I really wouldn't be surprised if this episode is the beginning of a return to the Michael and righteous man storyline so many Dean centric fans on here want. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

ythology around him. Although it's not something I particularly want I really wouldn't be surprised if this episode is the beginning of a return to the Michael and righteous man storyline so many Dean centric fans on here want. 

IF ONLY. But nope. Not gonna happen. The story line is shifting from Dean/Cas  to Sam/Lucifer. I don't even think we are going to get any real SL of AU Michael.

It could also be Jack centric. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IF ONLY. But nope. Not gonna happen. The story line is shifting from Dean/Cas  to Sam/Lucifer. I don't even think we are going to get any real SL of AU Michael.

What are you referring to when you mention Dean/Cas to Sam/Lucifer? I'm not being snarky, but I haven't seen Dean and Cas' storylines as overly connected this season. So far Cas' storyline has been he's dead, escaping death, brief reunion with the brothers and Jack, getting captured with Lucifer and now escaping from capture. While Dean's storylines have been dealing with the fallout of his losses, the development of his relationship with Jack, the mysterious thing he and Sam need to do that Billie referenced and now work on a way to save mum. I haven't seen much Dean/Cas connection this season in terms of plotlines. So what are you referring to? Again not being snarky or dismissive just seeking to clarify what you mean :) 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

Dean's entire arc in the first 6 episodes of s13 was him grieving Cas and then reuniting with Cas and hunting with him in Tombstone. Sam/Jack is the other part of s13. Now that Sam has had the reveal that he's depressed and that he's been traumatized by seeing Lucifer's true face, I think that signals the shift. That's how I see it. You don't have to agree with me. 

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

With the confirmation that Misha won't be in this episode, or if by some chance he is it won't be enough for an episode intended to be Cas centric IMO it's all but confirmed the title is in relation to Dean. Cas won't be in it so it isn't some sort of reference to him. Although since he's an angel the descriptor 'Holy Man' never fit him anyway. Sam's supernatural role has always been portrayed as unholy if anything - demon blood, vessel of Lucifer. While Dean's the one who has the whole 'righteous man' mythology around him. Although it's not something I particularly want I really wouldn't be surprised if this episode is the beginning of a return to the Michael and righteous man storyline so many Dean centric fans on here want. 

I think it could refer to our universe Michael, too. Or even alt-universe Micheal, if we're seeing how he sees himself or something like that.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Dean's entire arc in the first 6 episodes of s13 was him grieving Cas and then reuniting with Cas and hunting with him in Tombstone. Sam/Jack is the other part of s13. Now that Sam has had the reveal that he's depressed and that he's been traumatized by seeing Lucifer's true face, I think that signals the shift. That's how I see it. You don't have to agree with me. 

Ah thanks for clarifying what you meant :). And now that I understand it I can see where you are coming from. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they shift the Jack stuff to Dean since they've been building it up as Dean is the one whose behaviour he mimicks and the one he seems to want the approval of. They already shifted from Cas as the main pseudo father figure last season to Sam as the main one this season so another shift wouldn't surprise me. Although I do agree with your point that it seems Dean's depression storyline is done in the eyes of the writers and they now feel it is time to begin exploring the impact events have had on Sam instead. 

[MysteryGuest]

They're going to have to introduce Michael in a big way at some point, so this may be the episode where he crosses over?  After this week, we have 10 more episodes to wrap up these story lines.  Dabb himself said that Michael was going to be the big bad, so just how much longer are they going to wait for the showdown?  Unless their ultimate plan is that Michael kills Lucifer as an endgame, I would think he'll be a major factor in the second half of the season.  

Is it 13/16 that's the Scooby Doo episode?  

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it could refer to our universe Michael, too. Or even alt-universe Micheal, if we're seeing how he sees himself or something like that.

Fair point! Personally, as I mentioned when people mentioned the possiblity of the title referring to Cas when it first came out to me the descriptor "A Most Holy Man" better fits a human character since Angels aren't technically men. However, I could definitely see them twisting it to mean that so I wouldn't rule out your spec either :) 

[ILoveReading]

I'm expecting being a demon will disqualify Dean from being the Most Holy Man.

I don't see Dabb giving that kind of importance to Dean.   When Dabb says The Winchesters he usually means just Sam.  (not bitch vs Jerk, just referring to past episodes).  Since I have major s8 vibes, I'm guessing a Trials type story for Sam while Dean worries and fusses.

I predict the Most Holy Man will be Sam.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dabb himself said that Michael was going to be the big bad, so just how much longer are they going to wait for the showdown?  Unless their ultimate plan is that Michael kills Lucifer as an endgame, I would think he'll be a major factor in the second half of the season.  

Dabb says a lot of things that don't pan out. He said the Winchesters would be a war with the BMOL. That turned out to only be Sam.

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm expecting being a demon will disqualify Dean from being the Most Holy Man.

I don't see Dabb giving that kind of importance to Dean.   When Dabb says The Winchesters he usually means just Sam.  (not bitch vs Jerk, just referring to past episodes).  Since I have major s8 vibes, I'm guessing a Trials type story for Sam while Dean worries and fusses.

I predict the Most Holy Man will be Sam.

If we follow your logic then Sam is out too as he has demonic blood coursing through his veins and we were told he was altered at a molecular level when he consumed enough to take out Lilith. Since Alexander doesn’t seem to be in the episode either, ruling out Jack, IMO it’s either Dean or a newly introduced character. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I predict the Most Holy Man will be Sam.

I don't think it will be either Winchester. I think it's going to be Lucifer or Jack. Could be Michael but not attached to Dean. 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think it will be either Winchester. I think it's going to be Lucifer or Jack. Could be Michael but not attached to Dean. 

I’d say they can be ruled out since it seems like Mark P and Alexander aren’t in the episode either. I’d say the best bets are Dean (who I’m going with, Sam (though it really wouldn’t fit him imo), AU Michael in an ironic way or a newly introduced character. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

If we follow your logic then Sam is out too as he has demonic blood coursing through his veins and we were told he was altered at a molecular level when he consumed enough to take out Lilith. Since Alexander doesn’t seem to be in the episode either, ruling out Jack, IMO it’s either Dean or a newly introduced character. 

Sam's been purified about 3 different times.   Plus, the writers do what they want regardless if it makes sense or follows previous canon.  It wouldn't put it past them to say something like only Michael's true vessel can use his spear. 

But it could be Jack.

[MysteryGuest]

Since we know that Danneel has an arc of episodes, maybe it's something to do with her and whatever connection she's going to have with Lucifer.  We still don't know if she's going to be good or evil, so maybe she does something to alter Lucifer?  I have no clue, honestly.  And the title of the episode could mean absolutely nothing, as we've seen before.

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

If we follow your logic then Sam is out too as he has demonic blood coursing through his veins and we were told he was altered at a molecular level when he consumed enough to take out Lilith. Since Alexander doesn’t seem to be in the episode either, ruling out Jack, IMO it’s either Dean or a newly introduced character. 

I think it won't be Dean because the only showrunner that gave Dean a meaningful mytharc was Carver. Kripke/Gamble abandoned the Michael vessel arc. The Lance of Michael was used by Sam to kill Ramiel and then by Crowley to save Castiel. Dean literally picked up the pieces of it and it's never been mentioned since. If the show has Dean repair it in order to kill AU Michael with it, I will eat ALL the hats.  I highly doubt we'll ever see Jensen play Michael. I don't see any signs that Dean will do anything more than support the other storylines. He'll probably kill a few monsters of the week along the way, but I don't see him getting a big kill again this season. I'll be surprised if he does. 

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’d say they can be ruled out since it seems like Mark P and Alexander aren’t in the episode either. I’d say the best bets are Dean (who I’m going with, Sam (though it really wouldn’t fit him imo), AU Michael in an ironic way or a newly introduced character. 

  Just because they haven't been spotted on location doesn't mean they havent been filming in studio.  I just don't think Dabb is interested in giving Dean any kind of mytharc for Dean himself.

[companionenvy]

I'm figuring the title for irony, whoever it applies to. 

Can we please take the "Character X would never get a good storyline because the writers hate him" to Bitch/Jerk (under spoilers bars, if titles count as spoilers) or  bitter spoilers? 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I think it won't be Dean because the only showrunner that gave Dean a meaningful mytharc was Carver. Kripke/Gamble abandoned the Michael vessel arc. The Lance of Michael was used by Sam to kill Ramiel and then by Crowley to save Castiel. Dean literally picked up the pieces of it and it's never been mentioned since. If the show has Dean repair it in order to kill AU Michael with it, I will eat ALL the hats.  I highly doubt we'll ever see Jensen play Michael. I don't see any signs that Dean will do anything more than support the other storylines. He'll probably kill a few monsters of the week along the way, but I don't see him getting a big kill again this season. I'll be surprised if he does. 

Fair enough I can definitely see why you feel the way you do. I still think it won’t be Sam, but I can definitely see your point about why it won’t be Dean. 

 

Id say my likelihood ranking (from most likely to least) is currently 

 

1. Dean 

2. Newly Introduced Character

3. AU Michael (in an ironic sort of way)

4. Sam 

5. Everyone Else (by virtue of Misha, Mark P and Alexander not being in the episode)  

[gonzosgirrl]

Maybe it's Kevin. Or Donatello.

[bozodegama]

Well to be fair, Dean isn’t exactly a most holy man.  He’s a righteous man, but he hates religion.  He believes in free will, not Gods plan.  So i hope it’s not him.  And i Love Dean. 

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe it's Kevin. Or Donatello.

Donatello and Kevin are good options since they are already Prophets.  I wonder if we would get a rogue Chuck appearance.  I personally think it's going to be the ironic usage of "Holy Man".  It might even be just he Villain of the Week is the 'most holy man' who's going around killing people because he believes it's a Holy Mission.  That's what I think is really the most likely.

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

5. Everyone Else (by virtue of Misha, Mark P and Alexander not being in the episode)  

Assuming they are not, in fact, in the episode. They could have been filming in studio and it's being kept quiet.

Misha is spotted at home in Bellingham, WA which is just over the border from Vancouver so to me that doesn't mean much if Misha isn't seen on location.

[bozodegama]

I love Donatello but how can it be him.  Dude has no soul, poor guy.  He needs Mr. Rogers to guide him.  It’s probably a new character who dies.  Just my guess. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

I love Donatello but how can it be him.  Dude has no soul, poor guy.  He needs Mr. Rogers to guide him.  It’s probably a new character who dies.  Just my guess. 

He's still a Prophet of the Lord though. So I'm not sure if a soul matters in this situation. I don't really understand why that would matter TBH.

[SueB]

For Fun:

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

For Fun:

What am I missing here? What are you trying to say?

[SueB]

Pattern mania decoder ring:
- Breaks are the dark green
- colors are for current writers
- mytharc/seasonarc is lt green, MOTW (mostly) lt blue
- spoilers from ibelieveinthelittletreetopper sheet

EP 14, after the break: Only the Best Intentions
- Lots of AU  (Mary, Bobby, Jack, Michael)
- Cas and Jack filming at the 
- Speculation: Jack (bless his heart) is going to pull another "Cas" and do something with the best of intentions to bring back Mary but Michael gets through as well.  I don't know if they know that right away.  And I don't know if Mary actually makes it but she's definitely connected to Bobby and away from Michael (is my guess).
So, I think THIS is the episode Michael comes back. 

EP15, A Most Holy Man
- Written by Dabb & Singer: If this isn't mytharc I'm stunned
- Perhaps Michael is (wrongly) presuming his vessel is "A Most Holy Man" and he burns through a bunch of folks looking for a good "fit"
- Personally I think Dean is the obvious choice BUT the "frequency" of Angel power seems a little different IMO than in AU world.  So... not sure.

EP 16: Scoobynatural
- Just for fun

EP 17: The Thing
- Oh how I hope Ketch's resurrection spell has a bad side effect... and he's turned into a thing.  He's IN this episode.  

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What am I missing here? What are you trying to say?

I'm using past as prologue to figure out which will be mytharc heavy and which are MOTW. As well as guessing at story progression.