Spoilers With Speculation

[Diane]

13 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

14 minutes ago, Diane said:

 

Er.......nope I've got nothing. Anyone any idea what this is quoting from?

Is it Who let the dogs out?

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Diane said:

Is it Who let the dogs out?

It is indeed!

[Pondlass1]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 For instance, hello @Pondlass1, welcome to our nuthouse! ;)

 

Thanks for welcome and tips @DittyDotDot.  I'm a bit of a nut so should fit well. :)

[Pondlass1]

20 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

20 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Hi Pondlass. Remember me? A fellow IMDB refugee...

I asked this question the other day because I have struggled with it as it is so different to IMDB. In short - no you can't reply to a specific post or nest responses. So the way people seem to do it is to quote from the post they are replying to. Your notifications tell you if anyone has quoted you and you can click on the notification and go straight to their post. I am getting the hang of it but its a bug change from what we had got used to. Lots of aspects of the site are loads better though IMO. 

What I think would help would be if people started posts to discuss a particular aspect of an ep or spoiler etc they want to talk about rather than them getting lost in the big general threads on the latest ep or the generic spoiler thread. I asked the mods if it was ok to start new threads and they said it was fine, but it doesn't seem to be the done thing so I have been waiting until I am more familiar with the forum before I try it.

 

Of course I remember you @Geordiegirl1967 :) 

Yes, many aspects of the site are better than imdb (and certainly less raucous) and I certainly don't mean to criticize especially as I'm brand new here.  But - yes - that's my issue....an idea or theme gets lots in the big general discussion.  On the other hand, too many new threads can get annoying too. 

Anyway, so happy to have found a friendly place to discuss my favourite show of all time.  ( I am a Deangirl BTW ) I'm sure I will get used to things quickly.

Fingers crossed for a good episode tonight.

[ILoveReading]

 

Sounds like we're going to get more on Ketch.  I wonder if this might be what episode 17 is about

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Sam has not remotely 'gone dark side'. The worst you can accuse him of so far is that he went to see his mother because she implied she was in danger or there was a major issue.

I didn't ACCUSE Sam of anything. That's why I wrote darkside-ISH.  ISH as in kind of, sort of, maybe just a little.  Neither of us have the answer yet.

IMO one of two things is happening  

Option A:

It's straightforward and well worn territory with a redux of Sam and Ruby vs Dean  but now it's Sam and Mary vs Dean. Or it's Mary is Sam and Sam is Dean and Dean is....I don't know what he'll be doing. It's teasing out:
-- Are Mary and Sam going down another road to destruction paved with good intentions? (DUN DUN DUN!) 

-- Are Sam and Mary being brave and strong to work with the people that harmed Sam for the perceived greater good).

--Will they tell Dean? DUN DUN DUN
--Will Dean join up?  DUN DUN DUN
-- If Dean joins up, does that mean Dean's objections because they tortured Sam, moot?

If it is that straightforward then Mary is the literal worst because she really believes that Sam's torture is irrelevant to the goals and IMO, she is playing it straight, when she said the following when Sam reminded her of what they did to him.

 

Quote

There's no easy way to say it, so I'm just gonna say it. I have sort of... been working with the British Men of Letters.

DEAN: M-- You -- you, uh... you what?

SAM: Ah. Mom... we, um... we have a-a history with them.
MARY: I know, Sam. And it was a hard decision. But they're doing good work.

MARY: Do not give me the face.

DEAN: What face?
Mary: You know the face.
Dean: There's no face.
Mary: That's the face.
Sam:  Mom, we have our own tool kit, and it works just fine. A-and for obvious reasons, like broken ribs and burnt feet... We don't trust the Brits.
DEAN: So where does that leave us?
Read more at: http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=31230

 

Quote

Dean: Wow. Just wow.
Mary:  What the British Men of Letters are doing ...what we're doing, it's a better way.
They [ Sighs ] Look, I'm not blind to who they are or what they've done, but

SAM: When? When? When did you start working with them?
MARY: Since before the lake house.  It wasn't Wally. They brought me that case.

Mary espouses the "I know you were hurt Sam, BUT" The but is the problem.

 

Option B: 

That maybe she made up her mind to take down the MoL from the inside because they harmed Sam and she is in deep cover mode, which means she's a better actor than I would have though (Mary that is not Sam Smith).

If  it does turn out to be the "undercover" op, I won't be surprised if there is a montage that shows Sam and Mary's conversation about getting inside but they have to play it all on the DL and we can't tell Dean because reasons, unless Dean is already in on it which means we're likely going down the  'gotcha' Sherlock/bullet exchange in The Raid kind of storytelling which IMO loses the emotional resonance in favor of the gotchas.

The way it's being played now is that Sam and Mary are choosing to side with the enemy;  that Sam is okay with torture given his "Good" comment re Pierce. I wouldn't be surprised if they take the beat that Dean had about getting relief when he tortured others in Hell after his own 30 years of torture, and apply that to why Sam is okay with Pierce being tortured. That Sam is feeling relief or payback on some level. And Sam does like the vengeance at times..which is IMO darkside-ISH, as in kind of sort of.

If it is a long con scheme then I  would much prefer that we be in on the secret so we can WORRY and ROOT FOR Sam and Mary (and maybe later on Dean)  instead of borderline not trusting them. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying my thoughts

[bearcatfan]

@catrox14, I think there's a third option. Sam is saying yes to keep an eye on things but Mary may not be involved in that.

You know what they say, keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Sam may be deciding that he needs to keep them close because they aren't as great as they think they are and he's legitimately concerned for Mary's safety while working with them. If that's what he's doing, there's no reason to keep it from Dean and Dean may agree with what he's doing. Not because he trusts the BMoL, but because he DOESN'T trust them.

[AwesomO4000]

And I really hope that's it @bearcatfan.

I'm tired of Sam being naively swayed over to the wrong side when his instincts should be better than that by now.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Sounds like we're going to get more on Ketch.  I wonder if this might be what episode 17 is about

Dabb is in love with Mother Mary and the Brits, IMO. My guess is that he's going to want to carry them over into s13 and that means he has to somehow now try to start making them both appear more sympathetic.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[Casseiopeia]

33 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dabb is in love with Mother Mary and the Brits, IMO. My guess is that he's going to want to carry them over into s13 and that means he has to somehow now try to start making them both appear more sympathetic.

I think the ship has sailed on any sympathy for Mary or the Brits.   Seems like that hole is way too deep.   

How is Dean going to feel when he finds out that Mary not only deceived him she stole the Colt (his Colt) and handed it over to the Brits.  He can't be ok with that.   This has to be a pretty big deal.....right?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dabb is in love with Mother Mary and the Brits, IMO. My guess is that he's going to want to carry them over into s13 and that means he has to somehow now try to start making them both appear more sympathetic.

I don`t think he thinks Mary has done anything wrong or that she doesn`t appear sympathetic. That`s why she can stand there gloating while being apologized to and not acknowledging her own wrongdoings or changing her ways or making the slightest attempts to establish a relationships with sons she professes to love and do that working with the BMOL for. Equally Sam Smith made Mary sound very self-righteous in her interviews, with no indication of an attitude adjustment. So Mary will probably continue to breeze on as is. And the writers will wonder and wonder why not everyone worships her.

The BMOL, well, they need some work but again, I`m not sure they`ll get as much as you or I might think. Obviously the "old guys" will turn up sooner and later and probably be bad guys. Ketch is a curious choice to be made sympathetic or put on a redemption path. But lets see. 

The new ep summary tells me a couple things:

a) Dean is at least aware of Sam either joining up with the BMOL or infiltrating them or a mixture of both. It`s not like you can sneak Mick along on a hunt.

b) He agrees to something. Either a ruse. Or to give them a chance (alternatively some rope to hang themselves).

c) He/they might stipulate the "how" of it all, i.e. Mick tagging along on their hunt and not the other way around. Lots better than "dance, monkey, dance" which Mary does for the BMOL. Also, possibly that it is Mick and not Ketch that tags along.

d) The ep will be where it goes pear-shaped already. The summary gives it away with the melodramatic Claire-situation. The BMOL credo would be: kill her dead. The brothers will not be. Hence, I don`t see any true attempts at joining or working together after this ep. Even if they "turn" Mick, they know the BMOL won`t make good partners.

What is debatable still is if the audience is gonne be made to side against the BMOL longterm. Depends on how they portray things with Claire.

I`m tentatively hopeful for the episode, solely because of the writer. I would also prefer if the BMOL conversation would take place in ep 16 but I fear it will be in tonight`s episode. In which case, I fear the utter worst. If it ends like the last episode, yuck.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

@catrox14, I think there's a third option. Sam is saying yes to keep an eye on things but Mary may not be involved in that.

You know what they say, keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Sam may be deciding that he needs to keep them close because they aren't as great as they think they are and he's legitimately concerned for Mary's safety while working with them. If that's what he's doing, there's no reason to keep it from Dean and Dean may agree with what he's doing. Not because he trusts the BMoL, but because he DOESN'T trust them.

 

If it's all being played straight why wouldn't Sam forward Mary's message to Dean then add "Dean, I'm going to meet up with Mom. I think she's in trouble. I want to keep an eye on these asshats.  I'll text with the location as soon as I know where it is".  Or heaven forfend, Sam CALL DEAN to tell him that Mary might be in jeopardy. That shows that Sam is only going because he's worried about Mary and there is literally NO reason to keep it from Dean that he went.

Except to set up that confrontation between Dean and Ketch. And even that confrontation could still have existed even if Sam sent the message to Dean's phone.

It could have been played that Dean turned off his phone cause he was pissed and didn't want to hear from Mary at all.  It could have been that Dean's battery died because he's been so upset he forgot to charge it that morning before he took off to go to a bar. Or he left it in the Impala that is down in the garage so he didn't hear it. Or even that Dean's service borked and he didn't get the message until after Dean went off to hunt with Ketch. There were multiple ways for Dean to have not gotten Sam's message in time yet doesn't make Sam out to look shady if he's going to keep an eye on Mary for Mary's sake and thinks Dean should know.

IMO, Sam has tangentially been curious about the BMOL despite being tortured himself which is why he was going to call Mick for help and Sam does have a curiosity for the darker things IMO. Why have Sam be all shady with Mick "give me time" with Dean.

It's kind of stupid when I think about it for 5 freaking minutes. LOL

[bearcatfan]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If it's all being played straight why wouldn't Sam forward Mary's message to Dean then add "Dean, I'm going to meet up with Mom. I think she's in trouble. I want to keep an eye on these asshats.  I'll text with the location as soon as I know where it is".  Or heaven forfend, Sam CALL DEAN to tell him that Mary might be in jeopardy. That shows that Sam is only going because he's worried about Mary and there is literally NO reason to keep it from Dean that he went.

Sam walked from where he was standing, talking to Dean and his mom and went over to Mick to tell him "I'm in." When was he supposed to text or call Dean? When Sam got her message, Dean had just dismissed Sam's suggestion that they talk to Mary so why would Sam tell Dean that Mary might be in trouble when it appeared that Dean wasn't yet ready to see her? He knew Dean was going out drinking. Despite the fact that the show rarely shows consequences for drinking, it's plausible that Sam didn't know what condition Dean would be in, so why call? We knew that Dean seemed to be fairly sober but Sam didn't know that. I just don't get some big conspiracy on Sam's part because he didn't call Dean. He obviously didn't want to be at the BMoL's headquarters. They offered him a seat and he remained standing. That was a big sign that he wasn't getting comfortable. IMO, the decision to keep tabs came AFTER the raid when it all went sideways. Sam saw first hand how incompetent they were and decided that he needed to keep an eye on them. Especially after Dean stated that he came because his mom was in danger.

[MysteryGuest]

Personally, I think Mary has simply drunk the BMOL Kool-aid.  She thinks they're far superior and believes they can  wipe out all monsters.  Plus they keep telling her what an amazing hunter she is, so maybe she likes the adoration.  I hope that's not the case, but all of this fawning over her hunting skills is getting on my nerves.  I'm really finding her characterization off-putting.  She's just not very likable, and I keep thinking that she should be, based on what we used to know about her.  It's a problem for me.

As for Sam going dark, the jury is still out.  If he truly thinks the BMOL's method of monster killing is the way to go, then it's going to really piss me off, as this is not the Sam we used to know.  If he's running a long game, with  the plan to stop the BMOL, then I'll be happy with the writing twist.  Sadly, based on the writing for this entire season, I don't have much confidence that the long game is the way they're going to go.  I think what we're seeing is what we're going to get.  The only thing left to find out is whether Dean jumps on the bandwagon too.  Sooner or later they have to wake up to the fact that killing absolutely everything is not the right answer.  Based on the preview for the Claire episode, I'm hoping that revelation comes then.  

I'm really getting desperate for some satisfying resolution on one of the storylines.  This season has not played out at all like I thought it would after last year.  And I'm really no longer enjoying any of the storylines at this point.  Mary isn't likable, Lucifer is just a major snoozefest, and the BMOL storyline, at least so far, is ruining one of the best things about this show, and that's the monster hunts.  Dabb needs a good smack upside the head, in my opinion.

24 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Sam walked from where he was standing, talking to Dean and his mom and went over to Mick to tell him "I'm in." When was he supposed to text or call Dean? When Sam got her message, Dean had just dismissed Sam's suggestion that they talk to Mary so why would Sam tell Dean that Mary might be in trouble when it appeared that Dean wasn't yet ready to see her?

Sam knows Dean well enough to know that if he'd texted him saying that Mary was in danger, he'd have come running.  He might be pissed at her, but he'd never let her be hurt.  They didn't do that because they wanted the story to go the way it did, not because they didn't think Dean would care.  

Edited March 9, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

He knew Dean was going out drinking. Despite the fact that the show rarely shows consequences for drinking, it's plausible that Sam didn't know what condition Dean would be in, so why call?

Sort of in the same vein -- after the fight with Mary, Dean (understandably) needed a break. That's why he wanted to go to the bar in the first place (to take a break). So IMO it made sense that Sam wasn't going to bother him pretty much immediately afterward, while Dean was still out taking his breather.

I don't think it was necessarily ~secretive~ or anything. Dean was pissed/upset, and it's plausible IMO that Sam was trying to be considerate by not pushing him.

[Diane]

Producers preview

[Myrelle]

I have to admit to looking forward to Dean and Crowley's interactions in this one, if nothing else, at this point.

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Sam walked from where he was standing, talking to Dean and his mom and went over to Mick to tell him "I'm in." When was he supposed to text or call Dean? When Sam got her message, Dean had just dismissed Sam's suggestion that they talk to Mary so why would Sam tell Dean that Mary might be in trouble when it appeared that Dean wasn't yet ready to see her? He knew Dean was going out drinking. Despite the fact that the show rarely shows consequences for drinking, it's plausible that Sam didn't know what condition Dean would be in, so why call? We knew that Dean seemed to be fairly sober but Sam didn't know that. I just don't get some big conspiracy on Sam's part because he didn't call Dean. He obviously didn't want to be at the BMoL's headquarters. They offered him a seat and he remained standing. That was a big sign that he wasn't getting comfortable. IMO, the decision to keep tabs came AFTER the raid when it all went sideways. Sam saw first hand how incompetent they were and decided that he needed to keep an eye on them. Especially after Dean stated that he came because his mom was in danger.

I was referring to the first message from Mary. The Urgent one. There is no good reason for Sam to have not sent that regardless of how angry he thought Dean might be. This is Mary's safety at stake. Why would he assume THAT NOW after all these years this is the moment that Dean would be too drunk to come running?

Even if Sam wasnt concerned before he got there, why not text Dean once he got there? I mean if he's worried about safety wouldnt he want some back up? Wouldn't he ws gb Dean to know he's descended into the Lions den? Sam doesn't have a clue whether these asshats would turn on him or not. And they are wildly outnumbered.

If Sam really  thinks Dean would not help Mary or would not try to help Mary, then Sam doesn't understand Dean at all. Not like you'd think he would.

But my overall point is that Berens writing made Sam look more shady than necessary to if Sam was going solely out of concern for Mary.

Edited March 9, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Sam really  thinks Dean would not help Mary or would not try to help Mary, then Sam doesn't understand Dean at all. Not like you'd think he would.

I think Sam knows that Dean WOULD want to help Mary, and that's why he didn't want to bug him. Dean needed a breather. He went to go have a drink and get his head together. Maybe Sam wasn't going to stress him and interrupt that break -- for Dean's sake.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think Sam knows that Dean WOULD want to help Mary, and that's why he didn't want to bug him. Dean needed a breather. He went to go have a drink and get his head together. Maybe Sam wasn't going to stress him and interrupt that break -- for Dean's sake.

Yeah,  sorry

I can't  buy that one. Not when it comes to Sam going into the lions den. The is no good reason to keep Dean out of the loop when it's a safety thing. Just none.

What if things went sideways and it turned out to be a kidnapping or something?

Again it comes down to writing. IMO Sam would tell Dean if it was solely about Mary's  safety.

So for me it's a 50/50 chance that Sam might have somewhat been maybe in the back of his mind considering joining before he got there and thats why he didn't tell Dean. Because he knew Dean wouldn't like it. I don't think it was because Sam was being Oh so considerate of Dean. Besides Sam  was pissed at Dean, too, after Dean scolded him about picking a side.

[Diane]

38 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think Sam knows that Dean WOULD want to help Mary, and that's why he didn't want to bug him. Dean needed a breather. He went to go have a drink and get his head together. Maybe Sam wasn't going to stress him and interrupt that break -- for Dean's sake.

This I agree with.

[bearcatfan]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

So for me it's a 50/50 chance that Sam might have somewhat been maybe in the back of his mind considering joining before he got there and thats why he didn't tell Dean. Because he knew Dean wouldn't like it. I don't think it was because Sam was being Oh so considerate of Dean. Besides Sam  was pissed at Dean, too, after Dean scolded him about picking a side.

There's nothing about Sam's body language that suggests that he's even remotely interested prior to his talk with Mick at the end. Mary practically had to beg him to come in. He wouldn't shake Mick's hand at the beginning. He was going to leave before the briefing until Mick mentioned exterminating every vamp. He wouldn't sit for the meeting. None of this suggests that Sam was interested in joining. So, I have 4 things that occurred that supports my contention that Sam isn't acting shady vs your 1 thing of a lack of a phone call to possibly support shadiness. In reality, Sam didn't call Dean because Jensen was home spending time with his twins.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I can't  buy that one. Not when it comes to Sam going into the lions den. The is no good reason to keep Dean out of the loop when it's a safety thing. Just none.

What if things went sideways and it turned out to be a kidnapping or something?

Then Sam would've had to assume that Mary would let him potentially get abducted - which I couldn't see him doing - or assume that Mary wouldn't have been able to figure out the BMoL might do something like that after weeks of her working with them or that she would chance something like that if she did think they were shady. At the time of Sam going in, he was taking Mary on her word that they were legit and doing good work and didn't have much reason to doubt she believed that. Sam hadn't yet seen the incompetency.

I agree with Rue721 that Sam wanting to give Dean a break from Mom drama makes sense. And maybe Sam figured he could take care of it himself. If it had turned out to be an actual emergency that Sam thought he needed back up on, he probably would've called or texted Dean. And it's not like Dean texted Sam that he was going vampire hunting with Ketch nor do I think Dean had to. They are both hunters with enough experience to assess whether or not they think they can handle a situation on their own or not. And I think that's okay.

I also agree with @bearcatfan that nothing Sam did before he answered Mary's text or after he got there looked like potential interest. And to me, his supposed interest in joining still makes no sense based on what we saw in the episode, so I'm still hoping that it's something else - or at the very least this isn't going to be a plot point for long where Sam's judgement is going to be questioned for the rest of the season based on this decision that came flying out of nowhere* anyway.

* And I can't use that expression now without hearing Spike's voice in my head saying to Buffy (at her insistence that he watch over and protect her mom and sister for a while) "Well, now that's a boatload of manly responsibility to come flying out of nowhere." At least the Buffy episode hung a lampshade on the fact that Buffy's conclusion didn't necessarily make much sense.

[Wynne88]

The Please Come, It's Urgent message (or whatever the wording was) was nearly identical in meaning to the one Dean sent Sam, pretending to be Amelia, which sent Sam off on a fool's errand.  Whether that played into it or not, it was the first thing that popped into my mind when he read Mary's message.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, bearcatfan said:

There's nothing about Sam's body language that suggests that he's even remotely interested prior to his talk with Mick at the end. Mary practically had to beg him to come in. He wouldn't shake Mick's hand at the beginning. He was going to leave before the briefing until Mick mentioned exterminating every vamp. He wouldn't sit for the meeting. None of this suggests that Sam was interested in joining. So, I have 4 things that occurred that supports my contention that Sam isn't acting shady vs your 1 thing of a lack of a phone call to possibly support shadiness. In reality, Sam didn't call Dean because Jensen was home spending time with his twins.

Dammit, I need to get my scorecard polished up because I didn't know we were doing it that way! As far as the real world reason for Dean being absent from the episode that doesn't really matter to HOW Dean was utilized in the episode and IMO his absence was minimally felt, unlike the complete mystery of Dean's whereabouts in American Nightmare. 

My opinion on Sam's possible interest in working with the BMOL is not born solely from the events of this episode. I'm thinking back to LOTUS when Sam called Mick on the DL and then hung up. Mick then called Ketch to go help them when the Secret Service guys found them.  Then later in that same episode when he learned about how they can irradiate vamps blood and use it against them Sam was all "Cool".

So IMO Sam wasn't 100% NO WAY, not ever. So IMO, Sam was always kind of curious or he's being written inconsistently.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=12.08_LOTUS_(transcript)

Quote

(In the bunker, Castiel and Dean are in the library. Sam is off to the side, looking nervous as he calls ‘Mick Davies’ on his cell phone.)

MICK (off-screen) Hello. Mick Davies here. Leave a mess—

(Sam hangs up)

Then later on

Quote

ARTHUR So it's all very simple, really.

Mick Davies asked you to join our effort, which we're taking international.

My instructions are to strongly encourage a "yes."

CASTIEL So, what? You've just been following us?

ARTHUR Not at all. We're good dogs. We only come when called.

And he (nodding towards Sam)...called.

DEAN You what?

SAM I-I didn't, uh... I hung up.

ARTHUR Yes, you did, which made Mr. Davies think that you were in trouble, which you were.

So he rings me. Bing, bang, boom. Meet Bob. He's your uncle.

Oh, and, um, you're welcome. Hmm?

DEAN And why should we believe anything that you have to say?

ARTHUR You, Halo.

Do you sense I'm lying?

CASTIEL My name is Castiel.

And...

no.

But the truth can be situational.

ARTHUR Oh.

Oh, I do enjoy an angel.

But I understand your hesitation. You haven't exactly seen us at our best.

Lady Bevell is a bit... excitable.

DEAN She tried to kill us.

ARTHUR Like I said, excitable.

SAM And you're better?

ARTHUR I don't care about you one way or the other.

I'm not an ideologue.

CASTIEL And all you wanna do is help these American Hunters to clear this country of monsters?

ARTHUR We understand things are different here.

We're eager to collaborate.

The British Men of Letters are centuries old, lads. We can offer expertise, weaponry, skills.

SAM Like we saw out on the road?

ARTHUR I'm an artist, Mr. Winchester.

(Arthur hold up his key remote and pops open the trunk of his car)

ARTHUR I paint in many colors.

DEAN Was that a grenade launcher?

ARTHUR Quite.

DEAN Ah.

ARTHUR (leaning into the trunk) Our engineers have spent years blending sorcery and technology.

For instance, we don't always decapitate vampires.

Inefficient, really, especially for large nests.

(Arthur pulls a weapon out of the trunk)

ARTHUR We irradiate them, reorder their DNA. Their own blood becomes lethal to them.

SAM Cool.

(Arthur take an object out of a case in the trunk. It looks like a large golden egg with ancient symbols etched into it)

ARTHUR Hyperbolic Pulse Generator.

Exorcisms are unreliable. This device emits a force which drives the possessing demon from the vessel.

SAM What about a, uh, possessing angel?

ARTHUR And what might you boys be working on?

DEAN Well, you want us to trust you, you're gonna have to trust us first.

ARTHUR And that means?

[MysteryGuest]

In my opinion, Sam didn't call Dean because I don't think he really felt that Mary was actually in any danger.  I think he was pretty skeptical of her "urgent" message, as evidenced by his still semi-pissed tone of voice when asking her "what's so urgent?".  He knew she was just trying to get one of them to talk to her, and since he knew Dean wanted no part of that at the moment, he went by himself.  At that point, Mary wasn't in any danger, so he wasn't wrong in his assumption.  The fact that everything went sideways from there is because the BMOL are apparently ridiculously clueless about safety precautions.  They've been hunting monsters for how long and they've never had to actually watch their backs?  Seems pretty stupid to me.  Or they've gotten so complacent with all of their new-fangled killing machines that they've just gotten cocky, but either way, it's on them.

[bearcatfan]

I knew I wouldn't change your mind @catrox14. My point was that there is nothing in that episode to suggest that Sam  went to Mary and purposely didn't tell Dean because he was thinking about joining. @rue721 and @MysteryGuest have both given valid reasons why he wouldn't have called. There couldn't be a call because then Dean would have spent the remainder of the episode trying to get to the BMoL lair. I really don't think the writers thought anyone would think that Sam was not calling for nefarious reasons. They just knew that they wanted Dean with Ketch so Jensen could film later and therefore, Sam couldn't call Dean in the first 15 minutes of the episode. Then there would be complaints again about Dean disappearing for nearly the entire episode.

No matter what Sam did before, in that episode, he clearly wasn't having any of it until he found out how many vampires had been killed. Then, he was intrigued, but not ready to sign up just yet. If he really went intending to sign up, or was open to it, he would have shook Mick's hand. He wouldn't have said he's leaving. Sam didn't even know that Mary's text was related to the BMoL until she said she wanted to show him what they were doing.

Of course, I know that none of that will sway you.

[goldy]

1216 promo:

 

[SueB]

I agree Claire, the "foreign exchange student" is totally lame. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I agree Claire, the "foreign exchange student" is totally lame. 

I wonder how it is he got into the program in the first place. I mean, he clearly didn't do his homework, so how'd he make the grades? ;)

[bozodegama]

Wait a second, just thought about this.  Joshua stepped aside so as to not get involved in the apocalypse when there was an antichrist and the whore of babylon and he didn't get involved when there was a nephilim in the Metatron season and Metatron acting like God but now we're suppossed to believe that Joshua is going to get involved to get rid of Lucifer's child.  I don't think so.  I think that smooth talking Kelvin guy was taking Cass upstairs to deal with the "Cosmic Consequences" situation.  The Joshua I remember just trimmed the hedges and listened to God (I did like Joshua though.  He did get rid of Zachariah when he was chasing the boys in the penthouse.  Joshua didn't get involved in what was going on downstairs.  Cass is going to be in trouble again, imo and Dean is going to have to save him.   Cass is probably going into Heaven's prison.  Just my guess.  What do you guys think?

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Wait a second, just thought about this.  Joshua stepped aside so as to not get involved in the apocalypse when there was an antichrist and the whore of babylon and he didn't get involved when there was a nephilim in the Metatron season and Metatron acting like God but now we're suppossed to believe that Joshua is going to get involved to get rid of Lucifer's child.  I don't think so.  I think that smooth talking Kelvin guy was taking Cass upstairs to deal with the "Cosmic Consequences" situation.  The Joshua I remember just trimmed the hedges and listened to God (I did like Joshua though.  He did get rid of Zachariah when he was chasing the boys in the penthouse.  Joshua didn't get involved in what was going on downstairs.  Cass is going to be in trouble again, imo and Dean is going to have to save him.   Cass is probably going into Heaven's prison.  Just my guess.  What do you guys think?

I think it's a ruse. But I think this ties to Cas 'powering up' that was mentioned by Dabb.  I could see the Angels guilting him into taking on some dangerous power to defeat Dagon and kill the Nephilim.  They DON'T care about Cas.  They want to use him. 

And the sad bit?  I think Cas knows it's a trick and didn't say anything to Sam and Dean because he figures he deserves this.  He doesn't see (IMO) the Angels EVER forgiving him. But maybe he can work an arrangement to help the planet.  I don't know precisely Cas' angle but I think he seemed 'resigned' when he was talking to Dean. 

[goldy]

Supernatural Spoilers: “Ladies Drink Free”:

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-ladies-drink-free/144621/nggallery/image/sn1216a_0071b/

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, bozodegama said:

Wait a second, just thought about this.  Joshua stepped aside so as to not get involved in the apocalypse when there was an antichrist and the whore of babylon and he didn't get involved when there was a nephilim in the Metatron season and Metatron acting like God but now we're suppossed to believe that Joshua is going to get involved to get rid of Lucifer's child.  I don't think so.  I think that smooth talking Kelvin guy was taking Cass upstairs to deal with the "Cosmic Consequences" situation.  The Joshua I remember just trimmed the hedges and listened to God (I did like Joshua though.  He did get rid of Zachariah when he was chasing the boys in the penthouse.  Joshua didn't get involved in what was going on downstairs.  Cass is going to be in trouble again, imo and Dean is going to have to save him.   Cass is probably going into Heaven's prison.  Just my guess.  What do you guys think?

There a few possibilities.

Maybe Cas knows something is up so he's going in with his own plan. He sure seemed rather different after being healed IMO. I've been thinking maybe he's got some Michael mojo after being stabbed with Michael's sword and then being saved from death by the breaking of it. I dunno.

Maybe he's tired of running and he's decided that he doesn't want to endanger the Winchesters so he'll go back 

Maybe Joshua is going to give him an upgrade to archangel.

Maybe Cas is going to be given a directive to save the spawn so the angels can raise it to be their most powerful angel.

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, goldy said:

Supernatural Spoilers: “Ladies Drink Free”:

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-ladies-drink-free/144621/nggallery/image/sn1216a_0071b/

I'm glad to see Jodi's influence has helped Claire's hair issues, but whose hair is going to give Sam's hair a run for it's money then? Mick's beard might be a contender? ;)

Edited March 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm glad to see Jodi's influence has helped Claire's hair issues,

I thought so too at first, but then noticed this:

One side braid.  Not a fan.

Also:

Are they staying at a nice hotel now?  Does working with the BMoL get them fancier digs on the road?  No more crappy motel rooms?  I'm rather disappointed to think they'd never get to see the Clown Motel. :)

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

One side braid.  Not a fan.

But, I think it an improvement over the rebellious braids thing she had going on back in S10. ;)

Seriously, I don't care about hair, but do find the amount of discussion given to Sam's hair totally amusing. 

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

No more crappy motel rooms?  I'm rather disappointed to think they'd never get to see the Clown Motel. :)

I know, right? I mean, Dean would have some fun with it at least. And there would be the truckers and dogs for Sam to interact with too, not just clowns! ;)

Edited March 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm glad to see Jodi's influence has helped Claire's hair issues, but whose hair is going to give Sam's hair a run for it's money then? Mick's beard might be a contender? ;)

I think Sam's hair looks great this season. Mick doesn't have a beard. It looks like it's spray painted on. I hate his facial hair so much. LOL

[rue721]

I don't mind the sidebraid in theory, but what's with having a ~romantic tendril~ escaping the sidebraid and forming a forelock? Such a weird choice

Is it just me or does the guy who has Claire tied up look A LOT like Mick?

Does the casting director have a type, or are they supposed to be related lol

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Sam's hair does look good this season.  :)  Now I wonder what kind of "fancy shampoo" he uses.  Bet it smells like berries.  hee hee!

Mick's beard is definitely fake.  I'll bet he has a template he holds up to his face every morning for touch ups.

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I mean, Dean would have some fun with it at least. And there would be the truckers and dogs for Sam to interact with too, not just clowns! ;)

Good point about the dogs for Sam!  See?  Something for the both of them!  I might need to lobby the show to make this happen.  ;)

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Mick's beard is definitely fake.  I'll bet he has a template he holds up to his face every morning for touch ups.

I'm not a beard person, but Mick's beard and mannerisms never fails to make me think Huckleberry Hound:

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not a beard person, but Mick's beard and mannerisms never fails to make me think Huckleberry Hound:

That's it!  I knew it reminded me of something, but I couldn't place it.  Thanks Triple D!

[SueB]

Mick's beard flat out bugs me.  His hair is too dark for the scruff-ish look.

[Wayward Son]

I'm in the minority who likes Mick's beard then :D

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Mick's beard flat out bugs me.  His hair is too dark for the scruff-ish look.

I don't know if it's his hair is too dark or if it just doesn't feel like it fits the character? I feel like he should be cleaner shaven or have a more trimmed-professor-y beard. It just feels like the scruffy look is supposed to say he's a rebel, but I don't feel like his character is particularly rebellious...I don't know. 

[catrox14]

I just find it  esthetically displeasing. Either grow it thick or shave it and go with a van Dyke for evol

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm in the minority who likes Mick's beard then :D

You just go straight to the unpopular opinions thread with that one! ;) (j/k!  If you couldn't tell!) 

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I just find it  esthetically displeasing. Either grow it thick or shave it and go with a van Dyke for evol

It's too 'perfect'.  The edges are too neat and clean.  It's weird.  Is any guys' beard growth really that delineated?  

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It's too 'perfect'.  The edges are too neat and clean.  It's weird.  Is any guys' beard growth really that delineated?  

It's sort of reminiscent of the S9 break up beard...maybe Mick's trying to be like Dean? ;)

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's sort of reminiscent of the S9 break up beard...maybe Mick's trying to be like Dean? ;)

how dare you! deans was scruffy, not perfectly manicured. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

Sorry @catrox14, but I remember it being overly-sculpted AND scruffy. That's why it was so funny to me. Dean wore it well and it's not exactly the same. But, I did get a hearty chuckle thinking that maybe Mick has a picture of Dean from that time period taped to his mirror and spends his morning practicing his sales pitch trying to be like Dean... . 

Kinda like how not-so-marvy Marv was trying to be more like Cass with the trench coat in S9. 

Sorry, I'm just twisted that way. ;)