Race And Social Issues: The American Dream

[Meredith Quill]

Discuss Here!

[Trini]

So I think the last broadcast show with this many Asian/Asian-Americans in the regular cast was Outsourced. For shows currently on the air, Hawaii 5-0 has the most Asian-Americans -- but they aren't the leads. For Asian-American lead characters, I think there's only Elementary, Beauty and the Beast, but they are co-leads with a white character, and The Mindy Project.

[blackwing]

The two female leads on "Marvel's Agents of SHIELD" are played by Ming-Na Wen and the half-Asian Chloe Bennett.  Steven Yeun portrays Glenn, one of the more prominent survivors on "The Walking Dead".

 

Kristin Kreuk has never looked part-Asian to me (even less so than Chloe Bennett) but I remember all the complaints that "they made Lana Lang an Asian girl" so I guess there is a sizable part of the population that views her as such.

[paulvdb]

Kristin Kreuk has never looked part-Asian to me (even less so than Chloe Bennett) but I remember all the complaints that "they made Lana Lang an Asian girl" so I guess there is a sizable part of the population that views her as such.

It's actually the reverse for me. I immediately noticed that Kristin Kreuk was part-Asian when I saw the pilot of Smallville, but I always thought Chloe Bennett was white until someone mentioned on TWoP that she is part-Asian.

[PRgal]

I find it interesting that in the US, both South Asians and East Asians are categorized in the same group.  Up here in Canada, "Asian" is often exclusively East, while South Asians are defined as, well, South Asian.  Technically, in our census forms, some ethnic groups are further subcategorized than others.  For example, South Asians seem to be grouped entirely together, while Koreans, Chinese and Japanese are sub-grouped into individual countries of origin/heritage.

 

I wonder if they'll eventually introduce a brand-obsessed, shopaholic cousin...there were plenty of those at my school growing up (I'm a few years older than Eddie - was in 15/16 in 1995).

[photo fox]

On the most recent U.S. census form,  it's broken down as follows (assuming most government forms are similar).  It's odd to me because some of the broken out categories seem super narrow, but "Other Asian" seems really broad:

 

• White
• Black, African Am., or Negro
• American Indian or Alaska Native — Print name of enrolled or principal tribe.
• Asian Indian
• Chinese
• Filipino
• Japanese
• Korean
• Vietnamese
• Native Hawaiian
• Guamanian or Chamorro
• Samoan
• Other Asian — Print race, for example, Hmong, Laotian, Thai, Pakistani, Cambodian, and so on.
• Other Pacific Islander — Print race, for example, Fijian, Tongan, and so on.
• Some other race

 

In my little part of the U.S., I think typically people use "Asian" for everything east of India, "Middle Eastern" for everything west of India, and "Indian" for (obvs) India.  That is, if we don't just say the country of origin.  My friend's husband is from Laos, but he would call himself "Asian", not "Laotian" (but he's actually ethnic Chinese, so maybe that's part of it.)

[PRgal]

For those of you who're Asian with immigrant parents:  Were they really as FOBBY as the Huangs/FOBBier? Based on what I've been reading from some of you guys, my FOB parents really aren't that FOBby at all!  I may have had a somewhat Tigerish grandmother and mom who sent me to Kumon and believed that an old line, girls-only prep school was better than performing arts school for university readiness (not to say that I did NOT like my girls' school experience, despite the very catty classmates (ESPECIALLY from the Hong Kong girls)) but I had a "Canadian" childhood as well.  I went to Brownies (and yes, my mother helped me sell cookies), had a bike, skated, etc... Besides Kumon even through summer, I also went to day camp - enrichment camps (computers, science, journalism, though I had my way a few times and did drama and art) - but still day camp (and one overnight (music) camp in high school after lots and lots of begging.  They DID NOT want me in the wilderness.  Instead, they wanted me to go to sleepaway "camp" at a university where I'd be in a dorm). 

[Auroraborealus]

Yes, my parents were way fobbier than the Huangs. Lol

[PRgal]

Another question:  What's everyone's definition of FOB?  To me, FOB falls into two categories:

 

Trashy FOB:  Bad sense of style (as in they wear cheap and ugly clothing), doesn't speak English (well), really unaware of Canadian/American culture. 

 

Nouveau Riche FOB: I see A LOT more of these around here (I bet Vancouver has more).  I guess you can say that their sense of style is bad as well - all they care about are brand names.  They're the ones with the Louis Vuitton bags, CL shoes, weekly/daily blow outs, etc... for the women (about seven years ago, I was shopping at a higher end department store and a woman loudly proclaimed (in Cantonese) that Tory Burch flats were "not worth the purchase" because the name wasn't "big enough."  Keep in mind that this is Toronto and I wasn't the only person in the store who understood her).  Both men and women seem to have an obsession with Mercedes (or as Cantonese speakers call it, Ben-see) or BMWs (Bo-Mah in Canto) and live in McMansions.  Think Real Housewives of_____ and their spouses!  The younger generation is just as brand obsessed as the boomers and older Xers, but they're more likely to experiment (shop up-and-coming brands, for example).  And more likely to live in condos in the city rather than suburban McMansions. Though some of the older crowd would move into a condo after the kids have left.

Edited February 6, 2015 by PRgal

[idiotwaltz]

For those of you who're Asian with immigrant parents:  Were they really as FOBBY as the Huangs/FOBBier? Based on what I've been reading from some of you guys, my FOB parents really aren't that FOBby at all!  I may have had a somewhat Tigerish grandmother and mom who sent me to Kumon and believed that an old line, girls-only prep school was better than performing arts school for university readiness (not to say that I did NOT like my girls' school experience, despite the very catty classmates (ESPECIALLY from the Hong Kong girls)) but I had a "Canadian" childhood as well.  I went to Brownies (and yes, my mother helped me sell cookies), had a bike, skated, etc... Besides Kumon even through summer, I also went to day camp - enrichment camps (computers, science, journalism, though I had my way a few times and did drama and art) - but still day camp (and one overnight (music) camp in high school after lots and lots of begging.  They DID NOT want me in the wilderness.  Instead, they wanted me to go to sleepaway "camp" at a university where I'd be in a dorm). 

 

This sounds quite similar to my own experience; my parents were not fobby at all, but they were never that interested in fitting into Canadian culture, and so we ended up hanging around other Chinese people throughout the 90s and 2000s in Vancouver. My mom was the tiger mom of tiger moms and once got so angry at me for getting a B that I hid inside the garage and cried. She also invented homework for me to do during the summer - math, English, and Chinese. I took piano lessons (hated them) and math tutoring (hated it) and Chinese school on Saturdays. 

 

I've always found the Canadian immigrant experience to be somewhat different than the American immigrant experience. And there were definitely lots of Nouveau-Riche Fobs in Vancouver in the 90s. Not my parents though; we drove a Volkswagen and they put all the money into private education for me and my brother because they were convinced we wouldn't be ale to learn English properly at the public schools which were filled with Honger children. 

[ridethemaverick]

I wonder if the show will tackle the model minority thing. Probably not, but it would be interesting to see. They kind of flirted with it in the pilot but dropped it very quickly.

[scartact]

I can kind of see the show addressing the model minority myth in future episodes, especially given that Eddie seems to buck against the system his mother sets up for him. I think that's definitely a huge part of the Asian-American experience growing up.

[PRgal]

This sounds quite similar to my own experience; my parents were not fobby at all, but they were never that interested in fitting into Canadian culture, and so we ended up hanging around other Chinese people throughout the 90s and 2000s in Vancouver. My mom was the tiger mom of tiger moms and once got so angry at me for getting a B that I hid inside the garage and cried. She also invented homework for me to do during the summer - math, English, and Chinese. I took piano lessons (hated them) and math tutoring (hated it) and Chinese school on Saturdays. 

 

I've always found the Canadian immigrant experience to be somewhat different than the American immigrant experience. And there were definitely lots of Nouveau-Riche Fobs in Vancouver in the 90s. Not my parents though; we drove a Volkswagen and they put all the money into private education for me and my brother because they were convinced we wouldn't be ale to learn English properly at the public schools which were filled with Honger children. 

 

I thought the (nouveau riche) Honger kids all went to (old line) private schools.  There certainly were many at mine and when I went to university, a (white) girl from Vancouver in one of my classes said that her school had a lot too. 

 

I agree with you that the Canadian experience is (probably) different.  In my experience-  based on friends and acquaintances, anyway - we're A LOT less FOBBY up here so there are fewer clashes between the kids and parentals.

 

ETA: My parents' (non-work) friends were mostly other Hong Kong Canadians, but I had friends from all over (okay, mostly Chinese or Jewish).   Both my parents worked outside of the Chinese community (dad was (and still is) in finance and my mom worked in IT until the early 90s when she decided to stay home).  Again, I'm not sure if this made a difference.  The people I knew whose parents worked (mostly) within the Chinese community (i.e. accountants, dentists, doctors, real estate agents, etc...) had FOBBier parents, but not FOBBY in the sense I read/hear about in the US. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by PRgal

[PRgal]

What's interesting is this:  Eddie wanted to go hip hop, while I wanted to be presented as a debutante (not really sure how I was influenced because debutante balls, save for 18th birthday parties girls of Philippine descent have, are very rare in Toronto, even among "old money" WASPs)!

[ToukieSmith]

No one thinks the name of the show is offensive?  When I first heard the previews of the show, I was taken aback and surprised that there is no outrage.

[quangtran]

There was a bit of drama regarding the name. While in development, ABC originally named the show "Far East Orlando" (likely because someone at the studio knew that the term FOB would be problematic), but Eddie campaigned heavily to have the show named after his memoirs.

Edited February 7, 2015 by quangtran

[arc]

This sounds quite similar to my own experience; my parents were not fobby at all, but they were never that interested in fitting into Canadian culture, and so we ended up hanging around other Chinese people throughout the 90s and 2000s in Vancouver.

I was born and raised to Chinese immigrant parents in Vancouver too!  But I've always said the Chinese-Canadian experience in Vancouver is sooo much different than the typical Chinese-American experience, possibly excluding the most Asian parts of the States. I mean, my cousins in America (medium sized cities, too!) were more like the only Asians in their classes, or one of a few.  I went to an elementary school that was mostly second-generation Chinese-Canadian kids, and then a high school that was majority-minority, with Chinese tied with East Indian as the two largest pluralities of nationalities.

 

So anyways, we might not have had much representation on TV back then, but in my real life I often didn't even feel like I was in the minority.  And then because of that, I don't think we in Vancouver had that same dynamic that Eddie Huang had, where Asian kids either tried to assimilate into mainstream white culture or reject it in favor of assimilating/appropriating black culture instead.

 

There was a bit of drama regarding the name. While in development, ABC originally named the show "Far East Orlando" (likely because someone studio knew thatt he term FOB wopuld be problematic), but Eddie campaigned heavily to have the show named after his memoirs.

I kinda think -- not that I've read the book -- that Eddie intentionally named his memoir that way as a sort of reclaiming-the-term move.  Just from what else I know about Eddie Huang.

[PRgal]

I was born and raised to Chinese immigrant parents in Vancouver too!  But I've always said the Chinese-Canadian experience in Vancouver is sooo much different than the typical Chinese-American experience, possibly excluding the most Asian parts of the States. I mean, my cousins in America (medium sized cities, too!) were more like the only Asians in their classes, or one of a few.  I went to an elementary school that was mostly second-generation Chinese-Canadian kids, and then a high school that was majority-minority, with Chinese tied with East Indian as the two largest pluralities of nationalities.

 

So anyways, we might not have had much representation on TV back then, but in my real life I often didn't even feel like I was in the minority.  And then because of that, I don't think we in Vancouver had that same dynamic that Eddie Huang had, where Asian kids either tried to assimilate into mainstream white culture or reject it in favor of assimilating/appropriating black culture instead.

 

I kinda think -- not that I've read the book -- that Eddie intentionally named his memoir that way as a sort of reclaiming-the-term move.  Just from what else I know about Eddie Huang.

 

People were mostly first gen and immigrant in Toronto and I've never had the experience of being part of a "majority" culture at school.  It doesn't really matter, since since Grade 3 or 4, there have been more than two or three East Asian (mostly Chinese) kids in my class, so I was never the "odd one."  I lived in a fairly Jewish neighbourhood, though.  In Toronto, I've found that a good number of Chinese kids had Jewish BFFs if their closest friends weren't also Chinese.  As for the Canadian Asian experience being "different" - I wonder if people would say the same if they were from a smaller (non-university) town.  Also, maybe being from Hong Kong makes a difference?  I don't know many Korean Canadians well, but are their parents way FOBBier than HK Canadians?  I know that Japanese are generally NOT FOBBY, since most are not even first gen/immigrant gen, but instead, are descendents of people who were placed in internment camps.

 

As for the name of the show - I, too was surprised.  Here in Toronto, a guy wanted to call his restaurant GwaiLo, but at the end, it opened as DaiLo.  I guess GwaiLo is different, since it's a slur towards people of a DIFFERENT race.

[galax-arena]

I wanted to know what others thought of Edgar calling Eddie a "c****." There's been some controversy over that scene, with people wary of the one black kid being the jerk who uses a racial slur. I've seen people calling Fresh Off the Boat racist/anti-black for that line.

 

My take on it is that while I understand people's concerns over the line - especially as anti-black racism isn't exactly new to the Asian-American community, and vice versa - I think it's too soon to tell with this show. Just leaving aside the fact that according to Eddie the incident actually happened, because I don't want to get into the whole memoir/fiction/truthiness debate right now.... I didn't get the impression that the show was putting the focus on the black kid himself, and that the "c****" comment was meant to illustrate how awful black people are. Rather, IMO the point was to show how POC will fight among themselves in an attempt to gain a step on the ladder in the racial hierarchy. It's pretty true to life, and hell, white people know that and will take advantage of it by using us as pawns (e.g. the model minority stereotype) to shut other groups down.

 

If the black kid stays antagonistic and one-dimensional, that'll be one thing, but I get the feeling that he and Eddie will form an odd couple type friendship later on.

Edited February 7, 2015 by galax-arena

[PRgal]

I wanted to know what others thought of Edgar calling Eddie a "c****." There's been some controversy over that scene, with people wary of the one black kid being the jerk who uses a racial slur. I've seen people calling Fresh Off the Boat racist/anti-black for that line.

 

My take on it is that while I understand people's concerns over the line - especially as anti-black racism isn't exactly new to the Asian-American community, and vice versa - I think it's too soon to tell with this show. Just leaving aside the fact that according to Eddie the incident actually happened, because I don't want to get into the whole memoir/fiction/truthiness debate right now.... I didn't get the impression that the show was putting the focus on the black kid himself, and that the "c****" comment was meant to illustrate how awful black people are. Rather, IMO the point was to show how POC will fight among themselves in an attempt to gain a step on the ladder in the racial hierarchy. It's pretty true to life, and hell, white people know that and will take advantage of it by using us as pawns (e.g. the model minority stereotype) to shut other groups down.

 

If the black kid stays antagonistic and one-dimensional, that'll be one thing, but I get the feeling that he and Eddie will form an odd couple type friendship later on.

 

I think I wrote in another thread that the worst comments I've experienced came from black people.  Many often assume that the type of racism that East Asians face is the same as their experiences.  While no one has ever called me "c****," I've had weird comments like "It's good to see people like you here - we need more foreigners/diversity amongst conservatives."  I don't have an accent (while the (black) guy who made the comment did) and I tend not to think about "diversity" all that much.  I'm just...there.  Many also assume that I grew up in a less privileged neighbourhood.  White people tend not to do that - at least not vocally.  If the alarm goes off at a store, I usually turn back to see if anyone wants to check my bag.  Never happens...unless the security guy is black.  Now this is just my personal experience.  I wonder if there's any jealousy here.

 

ETA: I should say that middle class, "liberal" white women (usually "ethnic" - Jewish, Italian, etc...) come next in terms of weird comments.  My first name is westernized and it's my legal name.  They often ask me WHY my legal name is western and why I'm "ignoring" my culture.  WTF??

Edited February 7, 2015 by PRgal

[ridethemaverick]

I think it's more likely that the black security guard is actually doing his job and the white ones are just doing positive stereotyping/model minority nonsense with you. Why would a black man be jealous of an Asian woman?

Edited February 7, 2015 by ridethemaverick

[PRgal]

I think it's more likely that the black security guard is actually doing his job and the white ones are just doing positive stereotyping/model minority nonsense with you. Why would a black man be jealous of an Asian woman?

 

South Asian security guards don't do much either.  Black people jealous of Asians' relative success (stereotypically speaking)?  They tend to be more aggressive, too.  I don't see too many white security guards around here.

 

ETA: I just want to be honest about my experiences.  The comments I made were not meant to sound racist.  Just FYI. 

Edited February 7, 2015 by PRgal

[arc]

Rather, IMO the point was to show how POC will fight among themselves in an attempt to gain a step on the ladder in the racial hierarchy. It's pretty true to life, and hell, white people know that and will take advantage of it by using us as pawns (e.g. the model minority stereotype) to shut other groups down.

That's exactly what it was.  Eddie Huang via THR:

 

Let's understand why that word matters. In real life, a black kid said it to me, and when it happened, I fought the kid. I felt bad because I understood the frustration: "You're black, I'm Chinese and we are in a private Christian school -- we are at the bottom of American's totem pole, and we are left here to fight over the last spot in the microwave."

[pookat]

That's exactly what it was. Eddie Huang via THR:

Thank you for linking that interview. It's been interesting to read all the press around this show and learn more about Eddie himself since I haven't yet read his book.

It's pretty clear that he wants a less sugarcoated, less sitcom-friendly version of the show out there, which I can understand completely. He feels that it is his life being portrayed and wants authenticity.

I wonder though about his expressed desire to cover domestic violence, though, as in the child abuse he suffered at home. He has mentioned in other interviews that he was beaten, CPS was involved and that his parents still don't believe that they abused him. He also seems to respect his parents even in hindsight.

I have to say that as important an issue child abuse is to bring attention to, I'm wary of how a show like this would handle it in a way that wouldn't completely turn me off to either of the parents. It's one thing to see a strict, demanding but ultimately loving mother who fiercely protects her kids and a father who is a gentler character who wants something better for his family.

In real life, people are complex and can be all of the above yet still abuse their children behind closed doors, bit I wouldn't be able to enjoy the show or the parents' characters if I know that either one of them harmed one of their children.

For better or for worse, in order to have people continue to tune into a sitcom, they have to relate to, if not completely like, the characters enough to keep watching. If either parent abused (and I mean more than a spanking, which is what Eddie has alluded to) one of the boys, all I would be able to think from that episode on would be, "That's a child abuser. I can't watch this."

Blackish very deftly handled the spank or not question in what I think was one of their best episodes, but part of what made it resonate was the struggle that Dre and Bow went through in trying to make the best decision. From what I've read of Eddie's experience, that nuance didn't exist, though perhaps his angle would be where do you draw the line between what is culturally acceptable and abuse as defined by the American medical and legal system.

Edited February 8, 2015 by pookat

[HeySandyStrange]

 It's pretty clear that he wants a less sugarcoated, less sitcom-friendly version of the show out there, which I can understand completely. He feels that it is his life being portrayed and wants authenticity.

 

While I can understand Eddie Huang's frustration with how his writing has been toned down for tv, I'm surprised that he seems surprised that it happened. After all, ABC is not know for cutting edge programming. For that you have to go to cable tv, Netflix, or maybe Amazon now. ABC is worried about ratings and appealing to the family friendly crowd.  I would love to see an honest story on tv about child abuse in an otherwise normal family, since you really don't see one that isn't on some crime show. But I highly doubt it will happen, since they didn't even hint at it once so far.

[PRgal]

I wonder though about his expressed desire to cover domestic violence, though, as in the child abuse he suffered at home. He has mentioned in other interviews that he was beaten, CPS was involved and that his parents still don't believe that they abused him. He also seems to respect his parents even in hindsight.

I have to say that as important an issue child abuse is to bring attention to, I'm wary of how a show like this would handle it in a way that wouldn't completely turn me off to either of the parents. It's one thing to see a strict, demanding but ultimately loving mother who fiercely protects her kids and a father who is a gentler character who wants something better for his family.

In real life, people are complex and can be all of the above yet still abuse their children behind closed doors, bit I wouldn't be able to enjoy the show or the parents' characters if I know that either one of them harmed one of their children.

 

 

I'm not surprised about the CPS situation.  I know of a few people who have reported issues to schools when they were younger, but when officials came to the house, the parents denined that there were problems.  A lot of it has to do with Confusianist attitudes - they can't lose face and I also think they want to look like a perfect, middle class family.  Asian parents also often deny that depression is an issue.  To them, depression is a "middle class invention."  The stigma towards mental illness is a lot steeper than in the Anglo communities.

[Trini]

Another question:  What's everyone's definition of FOB?  To me, FOB falls into two categories:

 

 

So, coming at this from a non-Asian perspective: My understanding of "fresh off the boat" simply means a new immigrant (legal or illegal); with a negative connotation. You seem to be applying it Asian immigrants only, but I never thought it applied to only one ethnic group or nationality. In my experience (flavored by the communities I lived in), I've seen it used to describe mostly Hispanic (Cuban/Puerto Rican/other Caribbean) immigrants.

 

And yeah, I was... concerned about using it as the title of the show, however I thought "black-ish" was way more controversial. But I'm black, so....

[PRgal]

So, coming at this from a non-Asian perspective: My understanding of "fresh off the boat" simply means a new immigrant (legal or illegal); with a negative connotation. You seem to be applying it Asian immigrants only, but I never thought it applied to only one ethnic group or nationality. In my experience (flavored by the communities I lived in), I've seen it used to describe mostly Hispanic (Cuban/Puerto Rican/other Caribbean) immigrants.

 

And yeah, I was... concerned about using it as the title of the show, however I thought "black-ish" was way more controversial. But I'm black, so....

 

That's interesting, Trini!  Outside of East and South Asian communities, I think I've only heard FOB used once or twice - by Eastern Europeans.  And it came from people who had a good number of Asian friends.  But yes, FOB means immigrant, or, sometimes, people who "act" immigrant. 

[quangtran]

I wonder though about his expressed desire to cover domestic violence, though, as in the child abuse he suffered at home. He has mentioned in other interviews that he was beaten, CPS was involved and that his parents still don't believe that they abused him. He also seems to respect his parents even in hindsight.

 

I have to say that as important an issue child abuse is to bring attention to, I'm wary of how a show like this would handle it in a way that wouldn't completely turn me off to either of the parents. It's one thing to see a strict, demanding but ultimately loving mother who fiercely protects her kids and a father who is a gentler character who wants something better for his family.

I get Eddie's being disappointed that his show isn't nearly as autobiographical as originally pitched by ABC, but it was kinda naive to expect a rare show like this to potentially paint the whole community in such a way, especially a subject as touchy as child beating. I don't know the exact stats, but Eddie sees it as something that is common in all FOB families (heck, my own Viet dad believed in using curtain rods to discipline his kids). In this day in age, people find that kind of thing indefensible, yet Eddie wrote a salon article titled "In Defense of Chinese Dads". I can completely understand why the network and every writer in the writer's room would instantly quash the idea.

 

In her Ted talk about the dangers of the single story, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie said that stereotypes are dangerous not because they aren't true, but because they don't tell the whole story. What do you do in the case of Fresh Off The Boat, which in this case is literally the single story? People already analyze every incident in this show as a reflection of the broader community. Black viewers are already disappointed that the only overtly racist character was a black kid, and when testing the pilot, the report came back that white people were feeling persecuted. What kind of hell-storm will happen once they introduce child beating into the mix?

Edited February 8, 2015 by quangtran

[Auroraborealus]

I agree that having Walter (the black kid) call Eddie a c**** was less about making black people look bad and more about illustrating how a boy who, up til now, had been the bottom rung of the ladder, in turn heaped the same abuse on a newcomer who he percieved as someone whom he could step on. And it's kind of odd to me anyway, that they portray him as the only black kid in school. Back in the 80s and 90s in Orlando, while I was often the only Asian kid in my class, there were always several black kids and up til about 6th grade I got ching chonged by black and white kids alike. I also made friends with both black and white kids so I never saw either one or the other as more racist than the other.

As far as physical discipline, I think many of us who had FOB parents had the same experience. You just didn't get out of line unless you want to get the shit smacked out of you. And I'm not sure if it the same for Chinese, Japanese or other Asian parents, but my Korean mom had creative ways of putting me in "time out" half squatting against the wall with my arms straight over my head until my legs were trembling from exhaustion and I lost feeling in my arms. This was a common disciplinary method for Koreans and I sure learned not to repeat the actions that got me there. There were many times parents of my American friends would comment on how polite and respectful I was and they never realized it was because respect for adults was beaten into us.

[scartact]

I really hope to see more of the black kid (I'm so confused - what exactly is his name? I've heard both Edgar and Walter thrown into the mix!) in order to explore his and Eddie's dynamic. I think it would help better address any potential readings of anti-black racism that may have been gleaned from the Pilot. It also makes me think about how many noticed and commented on the usage of "c****," but we're also not addressing the other moment where the white kid makes fun of Eddie's lunch as an overtly racist moment. The show definitely builds up a lot of these various micro-agressions though, that's for sure. I'm curious to see if the show addresses anti-black racism within the Asian-American community though, which in my experience it definitely does happen especially with the older generations of an immigrant family.

 

As for physical discipline in Asian homes, I'm trying to consider it from my own experiences as a Filipina-American, and while there were only a handful of times when I was younger that my mom would pinch me or my dad would hit me with plastic hanger, I don't think my experiences growing up was as harsh as other peoples'. Looking back, I think my parents were more willing to allow my sister and I to assimilate and were much more lenient than other peoples' families. It's kind of hard because I'm sure that this was a reality for many other kids of immigrant parents growing up, but I just can't imagine the showrunner wanting to put in any notions of physical child abuse in a show that's more or less the first of its kind (second to Cho's All-American Girl? But I can't speak for what happens within that show, since I've never watched it). It definitely exposes that tension between representation and also understanding that Fresh Off the Boat (the show more specifically, and not Huang's memoir) is the experiences of one story and not necessarily of an entire population of people.

[photo fox]

So, coming at this from a non-Asian perspective: My understanding of "fresh off the boat" simply means a new immigrant (legal or illegal); with a negative connotation.

Honestly, I didn't even realize it had a negative connotation until I started reading about this show. (Granted, our immigrant community here is mainly from Latin America.) I'm pretty sure I've used it to describe my own immigrant ancestors. I'm glad to know so that I don't unintentionally insult anyone!

I agree that having Walter (the black kid) call Eddie a c**** was less about making black people look bad and more about illustrating how a boy who, up til now, had been the bottom rung of the ladder, in turn heaped the same abuse on a newcomer who he percieved as someone whom he could step on.

Yep, pretty typical behavior from a bullying victim. Not especially noble perhaps, but it's an understandable defense mechanism.

It also makes me think about how many noticed and commented on the usage of "c****," but we're also not addressing the other moment where the white kid makes fun of Eddie's lunch as an overtly racist moment.

I think some words just give a visceral reaction when you hear them. Yesterday I had a stranger at the grocery store - unsolicited, I swear! - approach me with a racist joke. Either way, I would have been repulsed, but his use of the n-word left me with a bitter taste that still lingers.

[HeySandyStrange]

I agree that having Walter (the black kid) call Eddie a c**** was less about making black people look bad and more about illustrating how a boy who, up til now, had been the bottom rung of the ladder, in turn heaped the same abuse on a newcomer who he percieved as someone whom he could step on.

 

 

It seemed to me, that on top of Walter being a long suffering victim of bullying, he had other problems as well. As Jessica pointed out, it was weird that he claimed to have a 40 year old friend. Whether his issues are a reflection of the bullying or other aspects of his life would be interesting to see. I would really like to see the dynamic between him and Eddie explored more, I could see them forming a tentative friendship.

 

On the subject of physical discipline, speaking as a 90's kid, I think it is also a reflection on how times have changed. I was roughly the same as the real Eddie Huang, and things were definitely different for 70's,80's, and 90's kids. The types of discipline that was common back then are mostly frowned upon now, if not outright considered abusive. It isn't really racial or cultural either, at least in my experience, because I have heard similar things from people of different backgrounds growing up back then. 

[Raja]

Honestly, I didn't even realize it had a negative connotation until I started reading about this show. (Granted, our immigrant community here is mainly from Latin America.) I'm pretty sure I've used it to describe my own immigrant ancestors. I'm glad to know so that I don't unintentionally insult anyone!

 

I first heard it from Japanese American kids aimed at Korean immigrants coming in and only knew it as a slur to be thrown out. I was shocked when I heard the title of the show just as I was with Good Christian Bitches and The Bitch In Apartment 23

Edited February 8, 2015 by Raja

[PRgal]

I think it would help better address any potential readings of anti-black racism that may have been gleaned from the Pilot. It also makes me think about how many noticed and commented on the usage of "c****," but we're also not addressing the other moment where the white kid makes fun of Eddie's lunch as an overtly racist moment. 

 

 

But the lunch thing is also NOT unique to the child of Asian immigrant experience.  Canadian celebrity chef David Rocco (Italian) has spoken about being embarrassed of his school lunches (rabbit sandwiches) and there's also that scene from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, showing the main character as a child and being uncomfortable about HER Greek lunches. 

[Auroraborealus]

But the lunch thing is also NOT unique to the child of Asian immigrant experience. Canadian celebrity chef David Rocco (Italian) has spoken about being embarrassed of his school lunches (rabbit sandwiches) and there's also that scene from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, showing the main character as a child and being uncomfortable about HER Greek lunches.

The lunch thing is definitely not isolated to Asian kids. The thing is, back then, especially in suburban areas with little ethnic presence, people just didn't have any exposure to authentic "foreign" food. You probably had Olive Garden, Taco Bell and a couple of Americanized Chinese restaurants. Everything else was weird and gross. Nowadays, ethnic food is much more accepted and even considered rather hip. Where I live now, in the suburbs of Denver, Colorado, there are several Korean restaurants that serve fairly authentic food. Indian food is becoming increasingly popular. There are pho restaurants on every corner. I go to Hmart (a huge Korean grocery store) and there are just as many white people shopping there as Asians. My kids' non asian friends eat sushi. It is a very different time from I grew up.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Auroraborealus

[Rockstar99435]

t also makes me think about how many noticed and commented on the usage of "c****," but we're also not addressing the other moment where the white kid makes fun of Eddie's lunch as an overtly racist moment. The show definitely builds up a lot of these various micro-aggressions though, that's for sure.

 

I thought it was an interesting way to show the difference between overt racism and micro-agressions. I was about 15 in 1995 and while I knew that racial slurs were evil words that you never, ever, no matter what Grandpa says, never use, but I had never heard of micro-aggressions and I'm not sure I would have seen thinking someone's lunch was weird was racist. I probably would have thought saying something was rude, but not necessarily racist. So I thought it was interesting that all of the white kids had no problem with the all the small things they were doing to Eddie but they all stopped and gasped at the racial slur. They knew that was bad.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Rockstar99435

[PRgal]

The lunch thing is definitely not isolated to Asian kids. The thing is, back then, especially in suburban areas with little ethnic presence, people just didn't have any exposure to authentic "foreign" food. You probably had Olive Garden, Taco Bell and a couple of Americanized Chinese restaurants. Everything else was weird and gross. Nowadays, ethnic food is much more accepted and even considered rather hip. Where I live now, in the suburbs of Denver, Colorado, there are several Korean restaurants that serve fairly authentic food. Indian food is becoming increasingly popular. There are pho restaurants on every corner. I go to Hmart (a huge Korean grocery store) and there are just as many white people shopping there as Asians. My kids' non asian friends eat sushi. It is a very different time from I grew up.

 

Around here, fusion/nouveau cuisine is a thing.  Most young, children-of-immigrant chefs are doing that (think people like David Chang, but Canadian).  I guess they think more "traditional" food is...boring.

[Constantinople]

The lunch thing is definitely not isolated to Asian kids. The thing is, back then, especially in suburban areas with little ethnic presence, people just didn't have any exposure to authentic "foreign" food. You probably had Olive Garden, Taco Bell and a couple of Americanized Chinese restaurants.

International House of Pancakes

Hello!

[scartact]

But the lunch thing is also NOT unique to the child of Asian immigrant experience.  Canadian celebrity chef David Rocco (Italian) has spoken about being embarrassed of his school lunches (rabbit sandwiches) and there's also that scene from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, showing the main character as a child and being uncomfortable about HER Greek lunches. 

I think regardless of whether or not it's unique to the Asian immigrant experience, it is still a racist moment. The show brings this in through the lens of a Taiwanese-American family so the reading is on them, but it is true that it happens a lot of different kids who are othered for their identity, and are made to feel like different aspect of themselves (whether it be their food or the way they dress, their appearance, etc) are read as "too foreign" and therefore they are ostracized or these micro-agressions build up to a boiling point.

 

 

I think some words just give a visceral reaction when you hear them. Yesterday I had a stranger at the grocery store - unsolicited, I swear! - approach me with a racist joke. Either way, I would have been repulsed, but his use of the n-word left me with a bitter taste that still lingers.

Oh yeah I definitely agree. There are moments of visceral reaction to overt racism, but then folks forget that micro-aggressions also have a habit of getting under your skin more and really changing the way you feel about yourself and certain aspects of your identity. It's easy to identify when something is definitely problematic, like a racial slur, but it's harder when it comes off as little things, like in the show's specific case of Eddie's food and the smell of his food getting him rejected from the table.

[PRgal]

Question for people here:  Do you think socio-economic class contributes to how FOBBY one is perceived to be?  Or do you think it's more about where your parents/grandparents are from (I'm assuming most of us are no more than second generation)?  Or maybe a bit of both?  My parents, especially my dad, grew up hovering on the poverty line, maybe a bit above, but through education, became very successful.  I grew up in a very safe neighbourhood and was eventually sent to private school.  All of my parents' friends who stayed in Hong Kong were also very successful and their children went to the best schools there (or boarding school in the UK, US or Canada) and a foreign post-secondary education (again, UK, US, Canada).  Those who came here had more of a "standard" Canadian middle class life (mostly public schools in good neighbourhoods, though some, like me, went to "old line" type private schools.   Kids mostly attended Canadian universities (mostly "brand name" schools like Queen's or McGill)), but were still extremely successful.  I can't say that any of my peers "struggled" nor did anyone live in almost squalor conditions in Chinatown.  We were all suburbanites.  I read some Asian Canadian/Asian American lit in school, but could never really identify with the characters.  The whole Chinatown/struggle thing is just not something I really "got" and was completely foreign to me.  However, sometimes, I feel that I'm "expected" to understand.  I guess that's why I feel that I'm more "connected" with Black-ish than this one (I know, it's not fair, since there have only been two episodes). 

[biakbiak]

It seemed to me, that on top of Walter being a long suffering victim of bullying, he had other problems as well

I am not defending the use of the word "c****" but it wasn't just like Walter said it at the first moment he met Eddie, he reluctantly shared his table with him and then as soon as their hip-hop conversation got Eddie a seat at the popular white kids table he left without a word to the one dude who cautiously allowed him to sit with him. It wasn't just that he was on the bottom rung, Eddie bailed on him the first chance he got. It was only later when Eddie tried to make him feel like he wasn't good enough that he used the slur.

[Constantinople]

After Walter called Eddie a c****, Eddie did not respond in kind but hit Walter instead.

 

That may be how it actually happened in real life, but given the almost limitless number of racial slurs with which Eddie could have responded, I can't help but wonder why the character didn't respond with one.  It's not as if Eddie showed any self-restraint after Walter's remark.  Perhaps the writers or the network weren't willing to go there.

[Raja]

After Walter called Eddie a c****, Eddie did not respond in kind but hit Walter instead.

 

That may be how it actually happened in real life, but given the almost limitless number of racial slurs with which Eddie could have responded, I can't help but wonder why the character didn't respond with one.  It's not as if Eddie showed any self-restraint after Walter's remark.  Perhaps the writers or the network weren't willing to go there.

Its a long time since All In The Family and being Black is different from just being a minority in America

[arc]

Eddie did respond verbally too, just offscreen. Remember, the principal said Eddie had employed a bunch of profanities he couldn't even repeat.

[ToukieSmith]

South Asian security guards don't do much either.  Black people jealous of Asians' relative success (stereotypically speaking)?  They tend to be more aggressive, too.  I don't see too many white security guards around here.

 

ETA: I just want to be honest about my experiences.  The comments I made were not meant to sound racist.  Just FYI. 

 

Just because someone works as a security guard does not mean they aren't successful.

 

It is a security guard's job to check bags when the alarm goes off to ensure theft has not occurred and that customers are not inconvenienced by having to make a return trip to get a security tag removed.  Maybe the black security guards check bags because its their job to do so.

 

 

There was a bit of drama regarding the name. While in development, ABC originally named the show "Far East Orlando" (likely because someone at the studio knew that the term FOB would be problematic), but Eddie campaigned heavily to have the show named after his memoirs.

 

I am shocked that the community was not concerned by it.  I like the show, but I am uncomfortable with the name.

Edited February 9, 2015 by ToukieSmith

[Camera One]

Question for people here:  Do you think socio-economic class contributes to how FOBBY one is perceived to be?  Or do you think it's more about where your parents/grandparents are from (I'm assuming most of us are no more than second generation)?  

 

I don't think socio-economic class contributes too much to it.  I remember feeling like I was really different in school when I immigrated mainly because of the clothes that my parents chose.  It wasn't that they couldn't afford more modern clothes, but they just had a different perception of what was the norm.

 

 

 

I am shocked that the community was not concerned by it.  I like the show, but I am uncomfortable with the name.

 

The name "Fresh Off the Boat" gave me the wrong impression, since it usually refers to people who couldn't speak English and just arrived in North America.  On this show, the kids can speak the language just fine.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Raja]

When I was growing up the Japanese Americans who called the Korean new comers FOB were of the same social class living among mostly 90% Black people and I don't remember any language deficiencies or heavy accents. It was just two historically enemy ethnic groups going after each.

[Camera One]

Interesting... I guess the term was used differently in different places.   So where did the Korean newcomers come from if they already spoke English well?

Edited February 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Raja]

Maybe the time period too. They came from Korea and Korea town was expanding. Most were like the kids in this show. Their parents may have had limited language skills and ran mom and pop liquor stores before being burned out in the Rodney King riots.