Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[YaddaYadda]

35 minutes ago, Curio said:

Yeah, but at least they admitted they were terrible sword fighters to begin with. I'm talking about people like Emma and Regina who think they're skilled enough to just randomly pick up a sword and last several minutes against people who've been trained for years.

Emma is going to get stabbed for her troubles and Regina disarmed and knocked on her ass. 

If the show allowed for the characters to have a break, then they could have had a scene or two of Emma training with Hook or her father. She did pretty well with the cutlass in 4x22 and she's not back to the two handed sword. 

[maryle]

We already know that episode 3 is about Cinderella and Snow. So, I think it is really hard to know the overall arc of the season at this stade except the vague Untold story.

I first thought the EQ will be the overall one but she is already so in the open that I am not sure it can last 23 without becoming to repetive. I guess it can be a serie of little arc of 3-4 episode that could contain some answer about Lily,... et stuff like that.

But, I curious about Emma's own arc on a season who could very well be the last.  I wish someone asked about that at Comic con. Is Emma's( their own Leia ) closure is important to the writers ? 

[Curio]

4 hours ago, Selina K said:

With the episode title for ep. 3 released, and it sounds like it will be Cinderella's, it seems they are really taking a step back to the more individual, stand alone structure of season 1. I'm not sure if this is really what people mean when they talk about a return to Season 1.

This is spot on. I'm not a fan of procedural storytelling, so if anything, that's the one compliment I can give to the later seasons of OUAT. I really enjoy watching a serialized story take place, but the problem is they don't know how to pace things properly. I don't think going back to a case-by-case structure (Episode 1=Hyde, Episode 2=The Count of Monte Cristo, Episode 3=Cinderella, Episode 4=Aladdin, Episode 5=Captain Nemo, Episode 6=Winnie the Pooh, etc.) is the answer. If we do that, then it's just a bunch of light and unexplored stories one after another, with no room to really dig deep into characterization, and I doubt the main cast is going to benefit from it any more than when they'd get shoved aside for Frozen or the Queens of Darkness. This show already has so many characters, it really didn't need to add a group of new ones into the mix to complicate things.

[KingOfHearts]

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This show already has so many characters, it really didn't need to add a group of new ones into the mix to complicate things.

I don't mind a few guest stars. (Such as a villain, and maybe a guest protagonist or two.) But I don't want so many that it takes over the entire show, like in S4. We're going into S6, which means we're getting closer to the show's ending. I would rather squeeze as much out of the mains as possible than waste more time on characters we've aren't going to see for very long. Let's see a CS proposal, or Henry maturing, or Snowing reconnecting with Emma. I want more of a bookend for the series.

 

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I don't think going back to a case-by-case structure ... is the answer.

I don't think so either. The ship has sailed on that one, imo. I would like a grander saga to bring the characters to much bigger developments. If we're going back to S1, let's return to that cinematic epic that was running in the background. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

I don't think going back to a case-by-case structure (Episode 1=Hyde, Episode 2=The Count of Monte Cristo, Episode 3=Cinderella, Episode 4=Aladdin, Episode 5=Captain Nemo, Episode 6=Winnie the Pooh, etc.) is the answer. If we do that, then it's just a bunch of light and unexplored stories one after another, with no room to really dig deep into characterization, and I doubt the main cast is going to benefit from it any more than when they'd get shoved aside for Frozen or the Queens of Darkness.

I don't know that the hints we've had about centric episodes necessarily means episodic storytelling. They've been doing that all along while stringing along an overarching plot -- we've always had the X character ep, the Y character ep, the guest star ep, etc. In fact, we can generally tell which episode of an arc will belong to which character because they're consistent about it. Really, this show does it the worst of both worlds. They pretend to be telling a serialized story, but then nothing much happens until the end, so each episode is just a one-off story with a bit of stuff thrown in to make it fit the storyline. I can't imagine that changing too much.

On another note, was there any word about them taking the Lady Washington out to sea? It seems like a waste to get the real ship, only to shoot at the docks, where they could have used the barge.

[Curio]

There's a new video of Snowing fighting The Count of Monte Cristo, and David asks why he's attacking them, and The Count responds, "Because she has my heart." So now the question is: did Evil-Regina take it from Regina's vault, or did she just steal it from the source himself? And of course no one will get angry at Regina for any of this, even though part of her personality is forcing this guy to try and kill them.

[KingOfHearts]

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And of course no one will get angry at Regina for any of this, even though part of her personality is forcing this guy to try and kill them.

The Evil Queen needs the Count of Monte Cristo to fight her battles? These are sad times indeed.

[YaddaYadda]

Yeah, did that just happen or did he live without his heart in another land for more than 28 years.

From the filming spoilers for 6x01, Regina and Snow are outside the vault, so it's possible the heart was stolen right out of there. 

[Shanna Marie]

And we thought we were joking when we speculated that although the Count of Monte Cristo has a story that parallel's Hook's, he'd have a backstory with either Rumple or Regina. So we'll probably get flashbacks of when Regina took his heart.

[mjgchick]

Why are the sheriffs not forcing her to give these people their hearts back? They are so far up her butt that they forgot this psycho still have them.

[Mitch]

It doesnt make sense at all (the Heart Vault) not only that they arent returned but how the hell does she have them in the first place and how did they survive 28 years in the Land Without Magic???(the biggest plot hole is S1 I felt was the Graham heart thing...) Shouldn't they have just returned to their owner? But then, they have to explain how Regina kept Daniel's corpse from rotting 28 years in a world without magic.

[Curio]

What if all the people from the Land of Untold Stories are the people whose hearts are in Regina's vault? That thing seems like it could potentially fit hundreds.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm sort of following what's going on with the panel and I really don't know how I feel about Lana implying that Regina was the EQ's conscience. There seems to be a complete separation of the two and it's like the EQ is Regina's own Dark One now or some variation of that.

[legaleagle53]

The good news is that Aladdin IS coming to Season 6.  The bad news is that we have a different Jafar coming with him:  http://tvline.com/2016/07/23/once-upon-a-time-season-6-aladdin-jafar-cast-oden-fehr/

[Curio]

What's the point of splitting Regina in two if she's basically going to remain the same and keep her sass? And they described the Evil Queen as being more dangerous now because she doesn't have a conscience. But doesn't it take a person with no conscience to kill an innocent groom on his wedding day, burn multiple villages, and kill scores of people without blinking an eye?

The panel was rather lackluster this year.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Curio

[RadioGirl27]

10 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

The good news is that Aladdin IS coming to Season 6.  The bad news is that we have a different Jafar coming with him:  http://tvline.com/2016/07/23/once-upon-a-time-season-6-aladdin-jafar-cast-oden-fehr/

Ouch, I love Naveen Andrews. But at least  Oded Fehr is incredibly hot.

9 minutes ago, Curio said:

The panel was rather lackluster this year.

Yeah, but at least the wedding talk can die now. 

And I'm really NOT looking forward to the new look at Hook's past. The last two flashbacks were terrible and full of retcons. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[Rumsy4]

8 minutes ago, Curio said:

What's the point of splitting Regina in two if she's basically going to remain the same and keep her sass? And they described the Evil Queen as being more dangerous now because she doesn't have a conscience. But doesn't it take a person with no conscience to kill an innocent groom on his wedding day, burn multiple villages, and kill scores of people without blinking an eye?

I'm so relieved Regina gets to keep her sass. NOT. I bet conscienceless EQ has less of a death count than original Regina. I mean, she could never come close to the multiple village slaughters. From beginning to end, this storyline seems to have no logic or sense. 

10 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

The good news is that Aladdin IS coming to Season 6.  The bad news is that we have a different Jafar coming with him:  http://tvline.com/2016/07/23/once-upon-a-time-season-6-aladdin-jafar-cast-oden-fehr/

I am disappointed Naveen Andrews is not available. OTOH, Oded Fehr!! 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Rumsy4

[sharky]

12 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

The good news is that Aladdin IS coming to Season 6.  The bad news is that we have a different Jafar coming with him:  http://tvline.com/2016/07/23/once-upon-a-time-season-6-aladdin-jafar-cast-oden-fehr/

Sounds like they had to recast because Naveen is filming something else, and I don't have too much of an issue with it. Oded Fehr had a recurring role on Covert Affairs and was totally awesome. I'm not worried. They couldn't bring Naveen back, but they brought in someone who will be more than able to handle the role.

Of course, this does bring up the complaint we always have which is that there are way too many characters being brought into this show. We have untold stories, Jekyll and Hyde and now Aladdin? And Count of Monte Cristo and some steampunk zepplin and some other stuff? Dudes, just chill with the extra characters! I thought this was supposed to have more of a season 1 feel.

Edited July 23, 2016 by sharky

[Camera One]

I gave in to the Darkness and watched the sneak peek with Aladdin and Jafar.  I was suprised it already came up on Youtube.

It was filmed quite well and the new Jafar is menacing, but I'm sick and tired of the "heroes" giving up and asking the villain to just kill them.  As usual, the villain kills redshirts, and we're supposed to not care about those innocents.  It looks like the "Savior" nonsense is going to continue.  Everything was very typical, though... the chase sequence with someone on a horse, Jafar vaguely referring to "what you did to me" (to Aladdin), "Just kill me", and all the angst that supposedly comes with being a Savior. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Camera One

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

I gave in to the Darkness and watched the sneak peek with Aladdin and Jafar.  I was suprised it already came up on Youtube.

It was filmed quite well and the new Jafar is menacing, but I'm sick and tired of the "heroes" giving up and asking the villain to just kill them.  As usual, the villain kills redshirts, and we're supposed to not care about those innocents.  It looks like the "Savior" nonsense is going to continue.  Everything was very typical, though... the chase sequence with someone on a horse, Jafar vaguely referring to "what you did to me" (to Aladdin). 

Which makes me wonder if maybe we aren't at least going to get some reference to the events of OUATiW to fill in the gaps concerning Will and Anastasia.  I mean, between the Return of Jafar (sorry) and Cinderella, it's an elephant in the room that logically can't be ignored, right?

Oh, wait.  This is Adam and Eddie we're talking about.  They've never even met logic.

[Curio]

17 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I am disappointed Naveen Andrews is not available. OTOH, Oded Fehr!! 

I'm totally okay with the switch. (I might have had a crush on his character from The Mummy back in the day.) I'll just head canon that he used a glamour spell throughout OUAT in Wonderland to keep a low profile. If Zelena could do it for an entire arc, why not Jafar?

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It was filmed quite well

They totally blew their entire CGI budget on that one chase scene. It looked shockingly decent.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Surprise!! "The Savior" of episode 1 is a new character we are introducing only for this season! You suckers thought Emma was the only savior (other than when Regina sometimes is), didn't you? Hah! Fooled you! -- Adam and Eddy, probably.

OTOH, at least they seem to be relating Aladdin to Emma's role as the savior. And he does the same hand gesture that JMo was caught doing in some of the filming spoilers.

And is Aladdin white?

I've had a huge crush on Oded Fehr since The Mummy. And I quite liked him in that short clip. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

I really disliked that Sneak Peek. Jafar and Aladdin are just gender-bent Regina and Snow. Then, of course, we've got to hammer in how endless the job of being Savior is. It's amazing how much this show can retread in only 3 minutes. I'm hoping there's continuity with OUATIW, but I'm not completely certain it will be. 

I'm unimpressed. It feels very irrelevant.

[Camera One]

I'll give them this.  They can still fire up the imagination despite replaying practically the same plot points in different settings and different costumes.  They might as well have had Dark Swan crawling on the floor looking pathetic, maybe Snow after she killed Cora could have been crying in the corner too, throw in Merlin looking helpless and Hercules refusing to be a hero.  

I'm curious where this falls in the timeline with regards to Jafar.  Is this post-Genie bottle, then?  Was his past with Aladdin recent, or would it fall somewhere within the Jafar flashbacks from the "Wonderland" show?  

I loved Naveen Andrews on "Lost", but I never liked his Jafar in "Wonderland".  This guy is much more similar to the cartoon, though without the wit or the deliciousness.  I just hate seeing innocents dying, as per usual.  I am adverse to cast changes, even though they could easily explain it on this show.  So even though I think I might prefer this actor, it's still a little jarring.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Camera One

[Writing Wrongs]

23 minutes ago, Curio said:

What's the point of splitting Regina in two if she's basically going to remain the same and keep her sass? And they described the Evil Queen as being more dangerous now because she doesn't have a conscience. But doesn't it take a person with no conscience to kill an innocent groom on his wedding day, burn multiple villages, and kill scores of people without blinking an eye?

So they are trying to do an "Angel without his soul" thing?

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Surprise!! "The Savior" of episode 1 is a new character we are introducing only for this season! You suckers thought Emma was the only savior (other than when Regina sometimes is), didn't you? Hah! Fooled you! Adam and Eddy, probably.

Emma was born the Savior, and I'm assuming that it's much of the same with Aladdin.

I liked that Jafar said that people take and take and take from the Savior until there's nothing left to give. This is exactly what people have been doing to Emma since she showed up in SB. They've sucked her dry. 

And she's likely already having those tremors in her hands like Aladdin was because we see her kind of freaked out and looking down at her hand. 

So Aladdin, orphan, grew up in the streets is a Savior. Emma, orphan, might as well have grown up in the streets is also a Savior.

And yay for finding out more about Hook's past. Although if it's more like 5x11, no thanks!

Edited July 23, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

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I liked that Jafar said that people take and take and take from the Savior until there's nothing left to give. This is exactly what people have been doing to Emma since she showed up in SB. They've sucked her dry. 

He's right about that. I'm curious to know if there will be "Savior bonding" between Aladdin and Emma. I hope it's coincidence they both have that title and it isn't some ancient magical lineage thing.

6A has to fit in the Evil Queen, Jekyll/Hyde, The Land of Untold Stories, and Aladdin. Sigh. Small town stories my butt.

Edited July 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

We've already done "The Savior's job is never done" before though.  And it still makes no sense why Emma is still a "Savior" in the general sense.  I am looking forward to some Emma/Aladdin bonding time, which could be similar to the Emma/Elsa stuff, which was good.

I'm guessing Aladdin is going to be the one who got all those people trapped in the Land of Untold Stories.  Bad boy...

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I'm guessing Aladdin is going to be the one who got all those people trapped in the Land of Untold Stories.  Bad boy...

Were they all trapped? I thought they were refugees there by choice.

Edited July 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That's true... though now that we see the presumable opening scene of 6A, I can see the bigger mythology of Aladdin and Jafar playing into why the Land of Untold Stories is there.  

6A has to fit in the Evil Queen, Jekyll/Hyde, The Land of Untold Stories, and Aladdin. Sigh. Small town stories my butt.

Don't forget Morpheus for Rumple's sideplot with The Box.

[RadioGirl27]

So I guess Emma's arc is going to be suffering and more suffering, with some more suffering in the middle finishing with a bit more suffering.

[Camera One]

Yes.  Suffering = WALLS.  Shaky hands are probably contagious so she'll need to push Hook and her parents and Henry away.

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

And he does the same hand gesture that JMo was caught doing in some of the filming spoilers.

I was waiting for some white magic to shoot out of his hands. But does that mean Aladdin has magic? It's kind of weird thinking of him as someone magical. Do all Saviors get white magic, or can they be non-magical? I'd imagine they'd have to have some magic to keep up with all the magical villains.

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm curious where this falls in the timeline with regards to Jafar. Is this post-Genie bottle, then? Was his past with Aladdin recent, or would it fall somewhere within the Jafar flashbacks from the "Wonderland" show? 

It would be kind of interesting if this isn't actually the real Naveen Andrews Jafar, but an impersonator. Jafar was a powerful magician in the spinoff series, so maybe this new guy heard the news that Jafar was stuck inside a genie bottle, saw the power vacuum, and decided to take over as a new Jafar because the other one can't do anything about it. Then they don't have to deal with the pesky continuity issues of the Wonderland show. (They clearly don't care much about that timeline considering what they did with Will's character.)

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

He's right about that. I'm curious to know if there will be "Savior bonding" between Aladdin and Emma. I hope it's coincidence they both have that title and it isn't some ancient magical lineage thing.

I could definitely see them going with a Savior lineage thing. But I'm surprisingly okay with that, because at least we can put to rest the whole "OMG Regina is going to be the new savior!" talk. Let's have Emma keep one thing to herself, writers. 

[Rumsy4]

This season definitely seems more and more like S4 redux. Ugh.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Don't forget Morpheus for Rumple's sideplot with The Box.

The mains are now just plot devices used to usher in guest characters. The show isn't about them - it's about the shiny thing dangling in front of A&E's faces. The Land of Untold Stories sounds like a ploy to cram as many franchises in as possible before time runs out.

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Yes.  Suffering = WALLS.  Shaky hands are probably contagious so she'll need to push Hook and her parents and Henry away.

Emma's one characteristic is "WALLS" after all.  You could describe each character with one word at this point because they're so two-dimensionally written. 

Quote

Then they don't have to deal with the pesky continuity issues of the Wonderland show. (They clearly don't care much about that timeline considering what they did with Will's character.)

When Jafar was talking in the Sneak Peek, I kept attempting to piece together the continuity with Wonderland. I just could not.

Edited July 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

I'm actually really excited about the potential they're setting up with this Aladdin/Jafar plot. If this means Emma gets some real focus and they world-build her job as the Savior, then bring it on. I'll need something to distract me from the monotonous Evil Queen stuff.

[YaddaYadda]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

6A has to fit in the Evil Queen, Jekyll/Hyde, The Land of Untold Stories, and Aladdin. Sigh. Small town stories my butt.

There is no 6A though.

I was just thinking about this because the cast is bloated as fuck, but there are no 6A or 6B. It's just one whole season, so they can actually afford to do this. all I hope is that they do it well.

[Camera One]

Until you guys mentioned Aladdin's hands were shaking, I actually thought he was turning into Wolverine.

You know, they should just release a scene every 2 days and stretch the season out over 365 days.  I mean, one scene can generate 2 days of jokes at least.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

There is no 6A though.

I was just thinking about this because the cast is bloated as fuck, but there are no 6A or 6B. It's just one whole season, so they can actually afford to do this. all I hope is that they do it well.

I honestly don't believe they're going to be gradual about this over 22 episodes. A&E are going to get right into everything ASAP. I think there will be some sort of splitting point mid-season, even if its not a hiatus. Something climactic has to happen in order to keep interest. From what we've seen so far, they're playing all the cards early.

Quote

You know, they should just release a scene every 2 days and stretch the season out over 365 days.  I mean, one scene can generate 2 days of jokes at least.

This show works better as standalone scenes anyway, imo. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I'm disappointed that it's not Sinbad and Scheherazade, but I liked the sneak peek. The acting was good. Maybe they'll manage to turn lemons into lemonade like Elliot Knight and Caroline Ford did.

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

You know, they should just release a scene every 2 days and stretch the season out over 365 days.  I mean, one scene can generate 2 days of jokes at least.

I'll be honest. I came here today mainly for the joy of making fun of the panel with you guys. The Aladdin sneak peek was definitely more promising than the S6 teaser trailer, which was just a regurgitation of much EQ nonsense. I can sort of disinterestedly see the Aladdin/Jafar plot to be interesting. But I've been burned so many times by unresolved plots and A&E's failure to make logical connections between charatcers and storylines, and this panel has done nothing to convince me otherwise. 

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

When Jafar was talking in the Sneak Peek, I kept attempting to piece together the continuity with Wonderland. I just could not.

You mean during his endless monologue?

 

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

I'm disappointed that it's not Sinbad and Scheherazade, but I liked the sneak peek. The acting was good. Maybe they'll manage to turn lemons into lemonade like Elliot Knight and Caroline Ford did.

Oh no, so Sinbad and Scheherzade did turn out to be actually Aladdin and Jasmine?  I was really hoping to see Sinbad and especially Scheherzade as well, considering Aladdin was in Arabian Nights, and we are talking about "stories", plus we have the useless Author.

Yes, the guy who played Merlin was amazing.  I forget that the writing actually sucked.

[CCTC]

I did not see Wonderland (although I did like the actor on Lost), so I don't have an attachment to the other version of Jafar, but I thought Oded seemed pretty kick ass.  He had a true menacing presence.

I  do think they are throwing too much into the mix, and a lot of the show's early potential is gone for good, but at this point I think I am going to just sit back and enjoy the ride and not look for anything more than pure popcorn entertainment and not anticipate anything too deep or complex relationship-wise etc..  

[sharky]

You know, with all this stuff in one day with the Evil Queen and Cruella and Aladdin, I wonder how much of a role Aladdin will even have. Let's remember that last year at Comic Con, they debuted Merida and we all know how that turned out. I wonder if the Aladdin thing will just be a D plot. In one sense, they are once again squandering a beloved character. But in another sense, something has to give. It just has to.

Quote

I  do think they are throwing too much into the mix, and a lot of the show's early potential is gone for good, but at this point I think I am going to just sit back and enjoy the ride and not look for anything more than pure popcorn entertainment and not anticipate anything too deep or complex relationship-wise etc.. 

Yep. I'm here for Captain Swan and Captain Charming and Snowing. The rest is just the rest.

Edited July 23, 2016 by sharky

[Camera One]

I think the sprawling scene looking like an opening sequence suggests that Aladdin/Jafar/Jasmine will be the overarching mythology for at least the first third of Season 6.  They need something bigger to tie the history of the Land of Untold Stories together and I don't see Hyde and the Count of Monte Carlo fulfilling that role.  So to me, the Aladdin/Jafar/Jasmine looks like this season's version of Arthur/Merlin/Guinevere rather than Merida.  Of course, we all know how that fizzled out, but I think it will have some prominence in the first third.  That scene alone teased a backstory and mythology relating to The Savior, whereas Merida's first appearance was mostly just whether Dark Emma will kill her or not.  

Maybe the winter finale will be Jafar Arrives in Storybrooke.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Camera One

[Spartan Girl]

As cool as Jafar looked, I'm sticking to my resolve to cut this show. After what they've done to Brave, Robin Hood, Beauty and the Beast, and Camelot, I have no desire to see them butcher my favorite Disney movie of all time...

And if I'm right in thinking the angst in the preview implies something awful happened to Jasmine....no. Just no. Al/Jas was my OTP when I was a kid. Plus, I went through it with King Fergus, I'm not going through it again. 

[maryle]

I am just happy to see Emma, Hook,  Charming not been too sidelining. I do not  trust A and E but it is good to have new about other thing the EQ. Honestly, it they just recycle the same story over and over with different guest and a little bit différent angle.

I heard they gave Robin' fans hope that suprised me if truth.

[Rosiejuliemom]

I'm here for all the Oded Fehr this show wants to throw at me. He could do nothing but give endless retreads of Henry's fountain speech and I'd still be happy to have him on my screen. I've had a thing for him since The Mummy.

Other than that, I really hope this season isn't as stuffed as it looks to be right now. The ADD-style storytelling is really starting to become unwatchable.

[Serena]

A&E taking back that hope for Robin fans real quick:

Quote

UPDATE: After the panel, the OUAT bosses clarified what they meant about Robin Hood. “The question was whether or not his spirit has moved on or is his soul truly obliterated,” Kitsis told EW. “What I was saying on the panel, perhaps not clearly enough, was that I choose to believe that Hades was lying and that Robin Hood’s soul had moved on being such a good person.” Added Horowitz: “The characters should and hopefully will question what Hades says and whether that’s true. That doesn’t mean we’re bringing Robin back. He died.”

You'd think someone who's a writer would learn how to use words...

[Camera One]

Kitsis told EW. “What I was saying on the panel, perhaps not clearly enough

Ha, yeah... "perhaps".