Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[HoodlumSheep]

^ for the same reason Zelena didn't let it slip that she was Marian in disguise; because Zelena is an oscar-worthy actress. Didn't you see her amazing performance as Marian Hood in 4a? Her acting was so good, it was almost like she was really Marian...

Belle with Pistachio? Hades? Zelena and Hades? Telephone booths? Shady blue fairies? Looks like I missed some interesting stuff while on vacation.

Edited January 7, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[kili]

I watched a lot of Cinemasins over the break. One of my favourite things is the "What??!?!??" he gives when something so ridiculous happens, it is just beyond words.

 

Belle arriving in the Underworld with Baby Zelena

 

"What???!??!?" Ding!

 

If they wanted Belle and Pistachio in the Underworld, why didn't they bring them along in the finale? Whatever madness ex machina BS they have to pull out of their butts to get her in the Underworld at this point is just going to leave me hitting my head on the desk. I'm sorry, but this just reeks of a retcon half-way through the season. They originally had the idea to leave her in SB, but they got a Great Idea that they just couldn't resist and now traveling to the Underworld is as easy as taking the bus.

 

Man, Nimue is even stupider than Rumple. She waited 500 years to cross back when she just needed some simple to do Magic  to achieve it! So easy, even a baby can do it. Look, it's right here in this book!

 

Neal didn't need to die to save his dad, he just needed to learn how to read.

 

And now Zelena and Hades are friends? I guess they got chummy while she was green vapour? Or did she have this planned along? She just knew her sister would end up in the Underworld looking for her BFF's boyfriend? Sure why not? It's a Great Idea. Rube Goldberg for the win.

[KingOfHearts]

And now Zelena and Hades are friends?

There goes Zarthur. *sniff*

Edited January 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

I wonder if Zelena promised Hades her first-born child as part of a contract at some point. Like Cinderella did Rumple. Maybe it had something to do with her coming back to life after Rumple killed her. Maybe the pendant only made it possible, but Hades came to collect because she was supposed to be dead. But she made a deal or something to stay alive. Now he wants to collect Lil Pistachio -- or he says he'll let Lil Pistachio go if she agrees to be Persephelena and stay in the UW with him.

[YaddaYadda]

The way he's holding her hand sort of looks affectionate. I wouldn't even be shocked if they had a thing, if he isn't in love with her, or something. The connection a&E mentioned that Hades has is clearly Zelena. 

 

Maybe he's Pistachio's real father, and she and mommy, and daddy will live happily ever after in Underbrooke.

 

About that paper he's holding, it's green inside. Does that have to do with CGI, or is it something to do with Zelena since green is her color and all. Or a list of everyone in the Underworld. Time is clearly moving there, maybe it was frozen until Emma arrived, and now people are moving on.

 

Maybe Zelena tells him to keep the Nevengers in exchange for her and her kid leaving. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[kili]

Maybe Zelena tells him to keep the Nevengers in exchange for her and her kid leaving.

 

I have to admire Zelena. She's always good at making allies on the fly. Arthur and her were rock solid. Neverengers and Arthur? He duped them like it was his job. 

 

I can see Zelena in the Underworld making an ally of Hades within the first ten seconds. If Hades is the dad of Pistachio though, I'm barfing. You'd think Zelena would have mentioned that during the custody dispute.  Off course, you'd think she wouldn't have managed to tamp down her craziness for 2 months while pretending to be Marianne when she's never been able to last more than a half hour before, but that's Zelena. She's whatever you need her to be to fix the Regina plot issues.

[Serena]

I can ship it. Zelena ending up with an actual god while Regina is stuck with Robin? Would give me endless lols.

[Rumsy4]

There is no way Hades is Pistachio's father. Even if he were, the Nevengers would still want to keep the baby from him, no matter what Zelena wants. I do like the idea that Zelena made a deal with Hades to give her what she wants in exchange for the Baby P. That would be enough justification for any of the "heroes" to off her.

[kili]

There is no way Hades is Pistachio's father.

 

I said the same thing about Zarian. I posted about how illogical it would be given how Marian acted and how her own husband/friends didn't notice anything was hinky. The entire bit with the marshmallow monster where she faces death rather than break her cover?

 

I was wrong.

 

Magic!

 

I do like the idea that Zelena made a deal with Hades to give her what she wants in exchange for the Baby P.

 

I don't think Zelena would trade the baby for anything. She's been pretty focused on keeping Pistachio and sees the baby as her happy ending (and she hasn't experienced all-night crying sessions and explosive diapers yet, so there is nothing to mar her pretty dream of perfection).

 

That would be enough justification for any of the "heroes" to off her.

 

Regina has sent the moral event horizon so high that Zelena would probably have to eat the baby to justify the "heroes" offing her.

[Souris]

I don't think Zelena would trade the baby for anything. She's been pretty focused on keeping Pistachio and sees the baby as her happy ending (and she hasn't experienced all-night crying sessions and explosive diapers yet, so there is nothing to mar her pretty dream of perfection).

 

That's why I think it was a "first born" deal before she was actually pregnant, when Pistachio was just a nebulous concept instead of an actual baby.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Souris

[YaddaYadda]

That's why I think it was a "first born" deal before she was actually pregnant, when Pistachio was just a nebulous concept instead of an actual baby.

 

 

Why would Zelena follow Belle to the Underworld knowing that the baby will be brought back as soon as this mission to bring Hook back is over? I guess Hades is likely very aware of who everyone is, and might zero in on the baby, and maybe I'm reading too much in that BTS, but there seems to be something genuine between them.

 

Zelena wouldn't know what happy looks like if it punched her in the face because she's so focused on Regina.

 

I wonder how Dorothy will figure in this since she's not a one off in this arc. I'm thinking the reason Dorothy is even here is because she's supposed to kill Zelena. And what has Zelena done to her other than sending her home to Kansas? I don't think she tried to harm her, has she? I really don't remember much from 3B other than the finale.

Edited January 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

What if the people of Underworld are not dead, just rematerialized in another place like Zelena was after she was "killed"? That goes back to my theory that Hades is preventing people from going into the afterlife. He's intercepting their souls once they leave their bodies.

Edited January 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

And what has Zelena done to her other than sending her home to Kansas?

 

Zelena also gave her a very nice pair of shoes.

 

Although, technically, Dorothy might not know that. The last she saw of Zelena, Zelena was threatening her and she killed Zelena with water. Then, Glinda takes her to see the wizard (which makes no sense for two reasons. 1, they walk. Isn't Glinda a powerful witch? And 2. Glinda claimed Zelena had vanquished the great evil of Oz meaning the Wizard and that is why she is the new Sister of the Compass. Why would Glinda take Dorothy to see the greatest evil in Oz's history. Honestly, what is her deal?). The wizard gives her the shoes and she goes home. The wizard then transforms into Zelena and she starts causing trouble.

 

Zelena actually pretty accurately realizes the problem here is Glinda, not Dorothy and does not actually harm Dorothy.

 

So, why Dorothy suddenly wants to kill Zelena should have to be explained to us, but probably will not.

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe Zelena goes on a murdering spree in Oz. 

 

Also, I remembered none of the stuff described above. I remembered Dorothy throwing the water at Zelena, and Zelena melting, afterwards it's a massive blank, so thanks for filling the pot holes in my brain.

[Jul 68]

One portal for you! And for you! A portal for everyone and every occasion!

David: Are they...

Rumple: What the hell? Can EVERYONE open a portal now!

[KingOfHearts]

 

2. Glinda claimed Zelena had vanquished the great evil of Oz meaning the Wizard and that is why she is the new Sister of the Compass. Why would Glinda take Dorothy to see the greatest evil in Oz's history. Honestly, what is her deal?

The greatest evil was Zelena, not the Wizard. When Dorothy "melts" Zelena, Glinda says the prophecy had come to past.

 

 

So, why Dorothy suddenly wants to kill Zelena should have to be explained to us, but probably will not.

If Dorothy still has the shoes, did she ever return to Oz? Did the curse prevent her from doing so? Maybe she ran Zelena out after Curse 1 was broken, so Zelena went to the Enchanted Forest. Dorothy could be protecting Oz currently.

Edited January 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

In a way I think it's a good thing Zelena and Belle are in the UW too. That means it won't be a standalone episode just to fill us in on what's happening in real Storybrooke. 

 

Bets on when Belle finds out Rumple's the DO again? 

 

ETA: I had been expecting the Camelot arc would be wrapped up in the Storybrooke-catchup episode, and maybe it will. I'm assuming they're just going to use the footage they shot for the mid-season finale. I don't think they will be shooting any new footage for 5B. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

In a way I think it's a good thing Zelena and Belle are in the UW too. That means it won't be a standalone episode just to fill us in on what's happening in real Storybrooke.

To me they should have gone in the first place. That could create good tension since there's all that angst back home. Zelena could meet Cora and the blackmail plot wouldn't go on the backburner so fast. The Underworld just seems like the perfect place to deal with those issues in.

[KAOS Agent]

 

About that paper he's holding, it's green inside. Does that have to do with CGI, or is it something to do with Zelena since green is her color and all. Or a list of everyone in the Underworld.

 

That paper and the margins around the green block look about the size of one of the pages from the storybook. It's possible that they'll CGI in a graphic from the book. Maybe Henry has taken up "writing" again. I think there was some spoiler or other about Henry's being the author coming into play again, which is stupid because then why not just rewrite Hook's death or whatever, but it's this show, so nothing would surprise me at this point.

[InsertWordHere]

What if Hades is Zelena's father, Jonathan? The Greek gods (well, mostly Zeus) were always pretending to be other people and impregnating mortal women and Zelena went on to do the same thing. If she was a demi-god, imagine how much she'd taunt Regina about it and it would explain how she was conjuring tornadoes at birth. Don't know why he'd pretend to be a gardener pretending to be a prince though. Okay, nevermind, I'd rather Zelena be his Persephone.

 

What if the people of Underworld are not dead, just rematerialized in another place like Zelena was after she was "killed"? That goes back to my theory that Hades is preventing people from going into the afterlife. He's intercepting their souls once they leave their bodies.

It's like a video game respawn point. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

What if Hades is Zelena's father, Jonathan? The Greek gods (well, mostly Zeus) were always pretending to be other people and impregnating mortal women and Zelena went on to do the same thing.

What does a god need with a spaceship?

 

I mean, if it were Hades, why would he demand jewels from Cora?

[YaddaYadda]

That paper and the margins around the green block look about the size of one of the pages from the storybook. It's possible that they'll CGI in a graphic from the book. Maybe Henry has taken up "writing" again. I think there was some spoiler or other about Henry's being the author coming into play again, which is stupid because then why not just rewrite Hook's death or whatever, but it's this show, so nothing would surprise me at this point.

 

He broke the pen though. Right in 5x01, Hook went to Henry and asked him to fix it by re-writing what had happened, and he told him he broke the pen, then said his mom would want him to be good, which whatever...

 

And even the whole let's rewrite Hook's death, when the Apprentice told Henry they couldn't bring back Neal because he had died in their reality which is what happened to Hook at the end of the day, it would be all kinds of iffy if they did it that way. And we know everything is all kinds of iffy on this show anyway.

 

Unless Merlin gave Henry a brand new pen, I don't know how he will be recording his stories.

[Shanna Marie]

You know, all those pictures of Hades and other people in the Underworld show them wearing coats. Does that mean it's officially a cold day in hell?

 

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

[KingOfHearts]

 

Hell has frozen over...

Elsa has arrived.

[Souris]

OK, did we not already HAVE a Gaston? Who was that guy that Rumple turned into a rose & snipped off his legs? I can't remember if they actually called him Gaston or we just took him as Gaston because of his role.

[mjgchick]

Yeah I thought we had Gaston already.

 

I hope he's a huge dick so i can laugh.

[legaleagle53]

Yeah I thought we had Gaston already.

 

I hope he's a huge dick so i can laugh.

 

We did.  His arc is taking us back to Belle's life before she ever met Rumple (which, of course, would be before Rumple turned him into a rose).

[KingOfHearts]

I actually wish Belle could leave Rumple for Gaston. The Gaston we saw in the flashbacks didn't remind me of the movie version at all, except that he was handsome and brave. The Sheriff of Nottingham fills the jerk role just fine. I think it would be a good twist if he was a legitimately good guy that Belle originally rejected but then later reconciled with. Which means it's not going to happen... gotta please those Rumpbelle shippers.

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder if Gaston isn't also dead, and Belle doesn't bump into him in the UW, and that's what prompts the whole pre-Rumple flashbacks.

 

I'm shocked there might be an actual Belle flashback that has to do with her, and not the princess of the day.

[mjgchick]

I'd love it that Gaston is a good guy. Hey this is the same show that gave us asshole Peter Pan and Arthur and a Captain Hook willing to be a better person.

 

Maybe we can get a Gaston who was nice but Belle found him boring because she secretly likes douchebags.

[Rumsy4]

Is Dead!Gaston going to tell Belle that she chopped of his legs? ;-)

[HoodlumSheep]

I am also sad that they are replacing old gaston. Old gaston wasn't a villain, and I'm sure A&E will destroy his character and turn him into a horrible person more like the movie version.

Heck, old gaston was brave enough to show up at Rumple's doorstep and try to free Belle from him. Even if he looked scared out of his wits, that still took guts.

Can we had him to the 2.0 list, or are recasts and naming poor children after dead people (in icky, twisted ways) mutually exclusive?

[kili]

I know it is probably just because of availability issues, but I find it interesting that the men that Belle interacted with in the past are all slowly being replaced by new people.

 

We first met Robin Hood in a Rumbelle-centric "Lacey". He plays an obstacle to the Rumbelle relationship as Rumple and Belle have very different views on how he should be treated, Belle helps him escape and to punish her, Rumple plants her in the ground so she can watch him kill Robin (but then she convinces him to relent).  When he next appears, he is played by a new actor and has a totally different personality.

 

We first meet Gaston in a Rumbelle-centric: "Skin Deep". He is an obstacle to the relationship because he is Belle's fiancé and he comes to the castle to try to save her. Rumple kills him by transforming him into a rose and watching with glee as the unknowing Belle snips off his legs (which would ultimately kill him). He has now been recast and may have a different personality.

 

In both cases, the men were obstacles and Rumple planned to have Belle participate in their demise.

 

Wouldn't it be cool if they work that it into the Storyline? That Rumple did something to obliterate both those men who were once obstacles and replace them with new, less-noble versions of themselves?  [Twilight Zone Music]

[YaddaYadda]

Whether they make Gaston into a complete douche, or not, is he going to be a bigger douche than the Dark One? I love Rumple, and all, but Rumple is the biggest douchenozzle ever. The list of transgressions is a long one, and even longer where Belle is concerned.

 

You know, for me, it's going to come down to the actor, and how he performs. I used to love Robin Hood, but the treatment of the character, and the strength of the actor sort of leave me very meh on him. He can stand in the background, and not say anything. I love Arthur, and no amount of pen poisoning has changed that because the actor was really good at making his character less douchy than the writing made him. Or watching the actress who portrayed Nimue sell the hell out of her character's motivation, where I perfectly understood why she did what she did, and I know it's morally wrong, but I really wanted that character to be redeemed badly.

 

It's like when I watch Rumple, and I'm seething, but Robert Carlyle is so great, and then he does the whole "look at my eyes fill with tears", and I'm like you rat bastard! I felt genuinely bad for Rumple when Belle dumped him, and when he told her to leave town. And I wanted to kick his ass 5 minutes later because he's Rumple, and Robert Carlyle can sell the hell out of him when he has something juicy to work with.

 

Gaston can be the biggest jerk to ever walk the fictional planet. If they have a capable actor, then that might make him a lot more interesting.

 

Gaston was turned into a rose, which probably means he died. I find it interesting that Belle might be around him while she's playing mom to someone else's baby. If they're writing Emilie's pregnancy in, that might be the episode they introduce it.

Edited January 8, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

 

Wouldn't it be cool if they work that it into the Storyline? That Rumple did something to obliterate both those men who were once obstacles and replace them with new, less-noble versions of themselves?  [Twilight Zone Music]

They did explain the recasting for Robin by saying he was using the six-leaf-clover glamour spell. Besides him and now Gaston, has there ever been a recasting on the show? Besides differently aged character appearances and Jennifer Koenig as the Queen of Hearts stand-in, of course.

 

 

Gaston was turned into a rose, which probably means he died. I find it interesting that Belle might be around him while she's playing mom to someone else's baby. If they're writing Emilie's pregnancy in, that might be the episode they introduce it.

I can see it now - Belle had a love child with Gaston, so they had to get married. But then Moe erased her memory so he could do shady things, so she thought it was an arranged marriage. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

 

I used to love Robin Hood, but the treatment of the character, and the strength of the actor sort of leave me very meh on him. He can stand in the background, and not say anything.

I can't even fault Sean on the flop that is Robin Hood when they give him nothing to do. Arthur, Nimue, Elsa, Ingrid all had better writing than him and he's a regular. The Neal character on the other hand...

 

If they give Gaston a lot more writing than Robin Hood I'm just going to shake my head. Robin Hood wont be tainted because of this badly CGI'd series.

[formerlyfreedom]

 

I was going to put this is in the media thread, but I think the casting news of Hook's dad is a spoiler. Yes?

No. Casting news is news, not spoilers. Spoilers are actual things that happen in upcoming episodes that get out through a variety of means. Speculation is "What if..." stuff.

 

A reminder - casting news is not a spoiler.

[Camera One]

I wouldn't want to ruin the surprise for someone who might light up to see Gaston without prior notice.   It's a simple way to make others happy with very little effort.

 

There wasn't enough going on in 5B, so that's great they're bringing on yet another character.  If Belle were going to the Underworld, I might understand it, but how is it going to relate to the present-day?  Are they going to have Belle accidentally reverse the spell and the Rose turns into Gaston again? Adam said Belle was going to be in the 5B premiere, so are they going to have a concurrent storyline in Storybrooke, just for Belle?  Who's left to interact with her?  

Edited January 9, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Camera One, I don't know how much you wanna be spoiled, so stop reading after this line...

 

Belle looks to be in the UW with Pistachio. And Zelena also looks to be there, and interacting with Hades. So both have made it to the coolest place on earth.

[Camera One]

Thanks, Yadda, I appreciate the heads-up.  I averted my eyes and will head out of this "realm", LOL.

[KingOfHearts]

Unlike Warrior!Dorothy, Hercules or Megara, Gaston makes sense to me in the Underworld because we're supposed to be exploring the characters' pasts. He's not an new character, either. I'm happy to see Gaston, Milah, Cora, Pan, Cruella, etc. and I don't think they add unnecessary fluff. At least they're relevant to the subject matter. I mean, it's not like they're telling Camelot then shoehorning in Merida from Brave.

 

 

Adam said Belle was going to be in the 5B premiere, so are they going to have a concurrent storyline in Storybrooke, just for Belle?  Who's left to interact with her?

Replying in Morality.

Edited January 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[formerlyfreedom]

This IS the Spoiler topic - so if you're in here, you can expect to be spoiled!

 

Also, the casting news policy is longstanding, and in many forums on the site. Not saying don't talk about it, just saying, it's NOT a spoiler. It can be discussed in the Speculation topic as well.

 

 

 

[Hookian]

That awkward moment when I'm rooting for Gaston over Rumple. Hell I will root for anybody over him because he treats Belle like crap.

[Rosiejuliemom]

Why would Zelena follow Belle to the Underworld knowing that the baby will be brought back as soon as this mission to bring Hook back is over? I guess Hades is likely very aware of who everyone is, and might zero in on the baby, and maybe I'm reading too much in that BTS, but there seems to be something genuine between them.

I wonder how Dorothy will figure in this since she's not a one off in this arc. I'm thinking the reason Dorothy is even here is because she's supposed to kill Zelena. And what has Zelena done to her other than sending her home to Kansas? I don't think she tried to harm her, has she? I really don't remember much from 3B other than the finale.

 

Given this show's track record, I'm betting Dorothy has been on a single-minded quest for revenge ever since Zelena killed her goldfish by overfeeding it.  Dorothy truly loved Blinky and she will have her revenge!

 

That awkward moment when I'm rooting for Gaston over Rumple. Hell I will root for anybody over him because he treats Belle like crap.

 

I dunno, Gaston would have to be pretty amazing to top my current ship of Belle/Bottle of NoDoz.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Rosiejuliemom

[Free]

Unlike Warrior!Dorothy, Hercules or Megara, Gaston makes sense to me in the Underworld because we're supposed to be exploring the characters' pasts. He's not an new character, either. I'm happy to see Gaston, Milah, Cora, Pan, Cruella, etc. and I don't think they add unnecessary fluff. At least they're relevant to the subject matter. I mean, it's not like they're telling Camelot then shoehorning in Merida from Brave.

 

Replying in Morality.

I think my main problem with the influx of characters/cameos in this arc is that the writers have already struggled with juggling several new characters around like in 5a and there seems to be even more this time around based on casting.

[KingOfHearts]

I think my main problem with the influx of characters/cameos in this arc is that the writers have already struggled with juggling several new characters around like in 5a and there seems to be even more this time around based on casting.

Oh definitely. TS, TW. Other shows like Lost can handle a large ensemble of characters, both recurring and guest. But this is the same show that brought you 4B, where characters that are supposed to be important only get spotlight for an episode or two. After that, they're dropped like a hot potato. I fully expect the same thing to happen here.

With Gaston and Milah coming back, I'm really starting to speculate Rumple's demise. How can they bring him back to Storybrooke all-powerful? Emma wouldn't live up to her blackmail for very long, especially since her family presumably knows about it. If Rumple dies, Belle could get an HEA with Gaston if he's still alive.

Edited January 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe it's because Hercules is on right now as background noise, and I've never watched the movie, but it got me wondering about the whole Zelena/Hades connection.

What if Zelena sold her soul to him for whatever? Maybe she wanted more powers, or an exit out of Oz (although there seems to be a permanent portal between Oz and the EF) I know they're bringing in Hercules, and Megara, but my understanding is that they're only in one episode, so I'm guessing they're the first ones to be able to leave the Underworld.

And then there's the whole part (I've only read the wikipedia entry on this, so forgive me if I got this wrong) about Hades wanting to take over Olympus, and him wanting to release the Titans, and he can only do that if Hercules doesn't interfere.

It got me thinking about the clock tower, and how it seems that time is moving in the Underworld, and whatever plans Hades had, there's now a Savior in town, and she's probably going to interfere with those, which would make Emma Hercules in this story, and Hook her Megara, except that he didn't sell his soul.

If time is frozen in the UW, maybe he's the one who did it, and he clearly has bigger plans if he's not letting people move on to wherever they need to move on to. Milah and Liam alone have been in stuck there for a couple of centuries. I imagine there are people who have been there a lot longer.

[mjgchick]

Dorothy looks like Katniss Everdeen.

Also did any see Christie Laing retweet the script for 512?

[oliverwendell]

I can't help it, I'm already shipping Zelena and Dorothy. If you listen to A&E about wanting to treat LGBT relationships exactly like hetero ones, theirs is the perfect setup: Two adversaries! Both hot! One of them is super sassy! The other one probably is, too! They fight fight fight fight and sparks fly! Against their will, they fall for each other! It's Buffy and Angel! Buffy and Spike! Emma and Hook! Plus the added bonus of completely f*cking with literary canon and making Dorothy fall in love with the Wicked Witch of the West! How could A&E possibly resist?

 

It's not like they couldn't have two queer relationships on the show. And this one would be even better than Mulan Rouge because Zelena is much closer to being a core character, especially when you consider her relationships to and conflicts with the other core characters, than either Mulan and Ruby.

 

 

Also did any see Christie Laing retweet the script for 512?

 

No, do tell!

Edited January 10, 2016 by oliverwendell

[PixiePaws1]

hmmmm..ep title The Jones Brothers.....2 or 3 brothers?

does that mean we have Liam senior for more than one ep? :o)))