Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[PaperScissors]

I have to confess, I'm not terribly excited about 4b so far. Three villains who all need their sob stories told? Although I'm thrilled that apparently Hook willl have a link to one of the new villains (*fingers crossed it's Ursula*), much of the rest of the spoilers don't fill me with joy. We're going to find out that Snow and Charming might be villains? (Remind me to hide the stemware before that episode). August is coming back for multiple episodes? (*Blech - I like Eion but detested August). Lily will make a mysterious reappearance? (Just when I've almost succeeded in wiping most of 4x05 from my memory). No spoilers for Emma's story other than the Captain Swan tidbits (which I'm excited about), and the promise that Emma's going to be helping Regina find the book author? Sigh.  I'm looking forward to seeing Ariel again, and the Captain Swan developments, and I'd love to see more Snowing although I'm pretty nervous about that to be honest with the spoilers we're getting but other than that.... 

 

Although, to my surprise, I'm actually looking forward to seeing more Belle, based entirely on how kick-ass she was in that final scene with Rumple at the town line. Who would have thought?

[shipperx]

Poseidon is Ursula's father

They're doing mythology! And at least they aren't retconning Ursula being a goddess. So 414 is Maleficient/EQ flashbacks, 415 is Poseidon and Ursula... I'm so glad 4B is gonna be focused on our main characters!

Isn't Ariel Poseidon's daughter? Wouldn't that make Ursula and Ariel sisters

Eta: Oops. Triton then. Been ages since I saw the little mermaid.

Edited December 22, 2014 by shipperx

[PaperScissors]

I think Ariel was Triton's daughter...

[pezgirl7]

New article - Colin O'Donoghue still hasn't shot with Dalmatians in Season 4

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/once_upon_a_time_colin_odonoghue_interview_hook_dalmatians_season_4-2014-12
 

"You definitely see in the second half of the season where Hook is integrating a little bit more into Storybooke life," he says. "It's been difficult because every interaction he's had with people has been helping save the world somehow. We see where he kind of begins to make connections with other people."

 
Finally! I was just complaining in the Hook thread about his lack of connections with other people in town. I'm guessing Belle is one of the people he starts to connect with.

 

Wasn't this the article that was promising to say which Queen of Darkness Hook had a backstory with? They don't mention that at all, just that Colin hasn't really had a chance to film with any of them yet.

Edited December 22, 2014 by pezgirl7

[KingOfHearts]

 

Finally! I was just complaining in the Hook thread about his lack of connections with other people in town. I'm guessing Belle is one of the people he starts to connect with.

 

Really hoping its Belle. That would be oh so awkward yet oh so satisfying. It's just a relationship you really wouldn't suspect and would fit right into Once. They could even address Milah, perhaps? I don't think Belle knows the details.

[retrograde]

Wasn't this the article that was promising to say which Queen of Darkness Hook had a backstory with? They don't mention that at all, just that Colin hasn't really had a chance to film with any of them yet.

Well they said "Hook also has a past with the Queens of Darkness: Well, at least one of them. More on that coming Monday (Dec. 22), so stay tuned." so they didn't technically promise to reveal it, but I can see why people would have assumed that.

 

Belle seems the most logical person for Hook to be-friend just because the non-main characters on this show are only used for exposition now. Could be Will, though, I guess. I would probably rather see that than Belle. Given he kind of has to be nice to the Charmings now, Hook needs a new reluctant ally to trade spiky barbs with, and I really don't think Belle is up to the task.

[Curio]

Finally! I was just complaining in the Hook thread about his lack of connections with other people in town. I'm guessing Belle is one of the people he starts to connect with.

 

Really hoping its Belle. That would be oh so awkward yet oh so satisfying.

 

Yeah, I'd totally love an awkward friendship between Hook and Belle. Now that the 4A finale has made me interested in her character for the first time in years, I'd like to see her have some meaningful interactions with people that doesn't just include her running into a scene and gasping, "I found the answer to your problem in a book!"

 

I'm also hoping Hook befriends Will. Will was way underutilized in 4A, and I'm still waiting for the writers to make the connection between Will missing his heart and Hook missing his. Maybe they can have some pints together and they can complain about how it felt being heartless. 

[The Cake is a Pie]

Belle and Will would make sense for Hook to interact with. He has a lot to apologize for with Belle (and thank, for saving his life, again), and they could bond in a "hey, Rumpelstiltskin totally ruined both our lives!" kind of way. I would like Belle to finally find out the whole truth about Milah and for her to actually believe it this time.

 

Will and Hook I can see grabbing a drink together.

"'ey, sorry I ruined your date, mate!"

"Aye, sorry I ruined your face, mate!"

Cheers!

 

The three of them can form a non-American accent club.

Edited December 22, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie

[Shanna Marie]

A quasi-friendship between Belle and Hook seems pretty organic, since people who've been screwed over by the same person may take solace in each other, and since Hook has known Rumple a long time and knew his first wife, Belle could get all kinds of "so, I'm not crazy for what I did, right?" validation from Hook. I just hope idiot Henry doesn't give her any flak for exiling Rumple with that stupid "but he's family!" belief of his.

 

Some plot-type stuff would have to happen first before I could buy any kind of interaction between Will and Hook. Right now, their orbits barely intersect. There's not much to work with there.

 

This may tie into the more Hook backstory that was teased/requested by Colin, but I've been surprised that Snow and David haven't tried to learn more about him. David's given him the "what are your intentions" speech, but as parents of the woman he's dating, they haven't done the, "so, tell us about your family, what job did you do before you were a pirate, where did you go to school" kind of thing. I would rather they dug a little deeper into the relationship between David and Hook and did something with Hook and Belle before they tried to add on much more from a lot of other people.

[Curio]

This may tie into the more Hook backstory that was teased/requested by Colin, but I've been surprised that Snow and David haven't tried to learn more about him. David's given him the "what are your intentions" speech, but as parents of the woman he's dating, they haven't done the, "so, tell us about your family, what job did you do before you were a pirate, where did you go to school" kind of thing. I would rather they dug a little deeper into the relationship between David and Hook and did something with Hook and Belle before they tried to add on much more from a lot of other people.

 

I'm always going to root for more David/Hook interaction, but I'm also hoping for some good interaction between Hook and Snow. When's the last time those two even had a conversation together that lasted longer than 30 seconds? Never? Have they ever even been in a scene alone just the two of them?

 

And here's an easy way to get David and Snow to learn more about Hook's past: just invite the dude over for dinner. Emma still lives with her parents (stupid "budget" pushing her apartment off to Season 5), so it wouldn't be too farfetched to believe Hook would start coming over for family dinners with Emma, David, and Snow. And then once Emma eventually leaves the room to use the bathroom or take care of the baby, Hook, Snow, and David would be left to awkwardly carry on conversation without the person who's the glue in that group. Not that the writers would ever let the characters have a domestic scene like that though when there's so much to learn about the new villains' backstories, whatever it is that makes Snow and David evil, and the 456,367th flashback to the Evil Queen vs. the Charmings in the Enchanted Forest.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm always going to root for more David/Hook interaction, but I'm also hoping for some good interaction between Hook and Snow. When's the last time those two even had a conversation together that lasted longer than 30 seconds? Never? Have they ever even been in a scene alone just the two of them?

I don't know, Snow has always seemed apathetic towards Hook. She doesn't seem to care a whole lot about who he is, except that he's dating her daughter. She hasn't bothered to make an effort with him at all, so I doubt she'd do so in the near future.

[The Cake is a Pie]

 

This may tie into the more Hook backstory that was teased/requested by Colin, but I've been surprised that Snow and David haven't tried to learn more about him. David's given him the "what are your intentions" speech, but as parents of the woman he's dating, they haven't done the, "so, tell us about your family, what job did you do before you were a pirate, where did you go to school" kind of thing.

 

I so want to see a scene like this, even if it were a 5 second throwaway. Like, Hook comes by to pick Emma up to go somewhere are she's not quite ready so he gets left alone with the parents. He doesn't even need to answer, just have Charming sitting there, glaring, while Snow peppers him with questions before Emma comes back out and they leave. A reverse of the end of the first date when they were waiting for Emma to come home.

 

A family dinner would be awesome as well, but since the writers have made it clear that they don't think we're interested in something boring like that, I doubt we could get one. Unless it were a dinner in a cave while they were hiding from dragon Maleficent or giant squid Ursula or something.

[Shanna Marie]

The parental grilling doesn't have to be a domestic scene. Hook could be stuck with either parent on some mission, like having to go together to find something, or doing a stakeout or staying in place to spring a trap, and that's when the parent might say, "This gives us a chance to get to know each other better!" And then Hook gets that "kill me now" look in his eyes.

 

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'd love to see more interaction between Snow and Hook. His tactics as a land pirate were pretty similar to her bandit tactics, so they'd make an interesting team. As they're putting together an ambush to waylay Cruella's car, she could chirp, "Isn't this fun? Now we can chat! So, tell me about your family."

 

Although there was a suggestion of more Hook backstory, the fact that Colin was saying he'd like to see more of Hook as a younger man suggests that any backstory we're seeing early in the next arc won't be either Pirate Killian or Lt. Jones. So whatever his link to whichever Queen of Darkness, it seems to have been more recent.

[Guest]

I have to confess, I'm not terribly excited about 4b so far.

 

 

The only thing that gives me a little bit of hope is that there is nothing I'm looking forward to so far.  I was incredibly optimistic about 3B and it wasn't that great.  I was incredibly leery of Frozen and that worked out well.  So at best they continue to surprise me and at worst my expectations are lowered and I can enjoy the handful of good scenes (there always are some of them) and snark on the rest.

Edited December 22, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[legaleagle53]

This may tie into the more Hook backstory that was teased/requested by Colin, but I've been surprised that Snow and David haven't tried to learn more about him. David's given him the "what are your intentions" speech, but as parents of the woman he's dating, they haven't done the, "so, tell us about your family, what job did you do before you were a pirate, where did you go to school" kind of thing. I would rather they dug a little deeper into the relationship between David and Hook and did something with Hook and Belle before they tried to add on much more from a lot of other people.

 

Then again, Emma's 32, not 16.  Would she even want them to do that kind of probing on her behalf?

[Shanna Marie]

Would she even want them to do that kind of probing on her behalf?

Of course not. But she also didn't want them waiting up for her after their first date, and that didn't stop them. They didn't get to play parents when she was dating at 16 (if they had, Henry probably wouldn't exist), so they're going into full-on parenting mode now, for better or worse. Heck, I'm in my 40s, and if I brought a guy home now, my parents might not obviously grill him, but he would get asked questions about his family, where he went to school, where he works, where he goes to church, what he's doing with his life, etc. They'd be even more likely to do that if he seemed somewhat shady, as they'd be digging for what I see in him that might not be obvious on the surface. They know nothing about Hook other than that he was a pirate, he has a gripe with Rumple (do Snow and David even know why, or was that explained offscreen?), and that he seems to be willing to do just about anything for Emma. You'd think they'd be more curious about what makes him tick.

 

So maybe whatever connection he has with whichever Queen of Darkness will bring up something that will stir up questions.

[KAOS Agent]

I generally find their attempts to play the overprotective parent roles as stupid and annoying. David telling Hook he'd never get Emma because he'd see to that rubbed me really wrong. Emma's an adult who makes her own decisions and her own way and I'm never happy with her parents inserting themselves into her love life. They don't have a typical relationship and Emma is often trying to make them happy, so expressing disapproval about Hook puts stress on Emma that shouldn't exist. Also, Snow seemed to think Emma should get back with Neal, so her judgement is questionable. Now if David or Snow started asking questions about Hook due to a genuine interest in getting to know him rather than in some sort of attempt to assess his worthiness for Emma, that's a different story.

 

I'm glad to hear that Hook is maybe associating with others outside of the usual monster of the month story arc. Maybe he'll get an actual job too. Or is that too much to ask? 

[Curio]

I'm glad to hear that Hook is maybe associating with others outside of the usual monster of the month story arc. Maybe he'll get an actual job too. Or is that too much to ask?

 

I'm sure we'll get the same "Emma's apartment" excuse about why Hook doesn't have a job in Season 6 because they "couldn't afford" the set that's required. Even though they have access to a marina 24/7...

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Since we've had David's "overprotective dad speech" mode three times now (Neverland, ice wall, before the 1st date) and already played the Snowing-treating-their-30-year-old-daughter-like-she's-16 regarding dating in 404, I would hope any backstory/boyfriend questioning of Hook would arise out of their observations after Emma's date--"she seems happy" and "maybe he has changed". The jumping off point is right.there for them to want to find out more about the guy who makes their daughter--who lets face it isn't exactly Miss Rainbows and Sunshine--happy. But knowing how this show hates to use the golden opportunities they've written for themselves, we will probably be treated to yet another overprotective parental hijinks storyline or more likely all will be revealed when it ties into whichever of the three EVILs Hook has a history with and we will bang our heads against the wall at another wasted Charming family dynamic opportunity that gets squandered.

[retrograde]

Aurora's dad cast http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/22/once-upon-time-sebastian-roche-aurora/?hootPostID=c4482e8368c2bef66ad7c52f1ad36a93 Has "complicated" relationship with Maleficent.

[Curio]

I'm sensing we're going to get something very similar to the Angelina Jolie Maleficent plot here...

[Rumsy4]

I'm sensing we're going to get something very similar to the Angelina Jolie Maleficent plot here...

OMG!! I agree. That plays into A&E's vision that it's always the so called good guys who create the villains. At least we should be thankful it's nobody related to the Charmings. But of course, that means they screwed over Cruella.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Aurora's dad cast http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/22/once-upon-time-sebastian-roche-aurora/?hootPostID=c4482e8368c2bef66ad7c52f1ad36a93 Has "complicated" relationship with Maleficent.

I fucking love him!

 

I'm really glad to hear that Hook will be forming some connections in SB.  I wanna say it's about time, but given that something like a few days (weeks?) actually passed since everyone has been pulled back in town...

[Shanna Marie]

Now if David or Snow started asking questions about Hook due to a genuine interest in getting to know him rather than in some sort of attempt to assess his worthiness for Emma, that's a different story.

Taking this to the Relationships thread, since we're straying beyond spoilers to wishing/analyzing.

[retrograde]

I'm sensing we're going to get something very similar to the Angelina Jolie Maleficent plot here...

Is that film worth watching pre-4B? Or should I just read the Wikipedia summary? I usually catch up on kids films on flights, but I'm not sure I'll fly anywhere in the next few months.

[HeimrArnadalr]

Aurora's dad cast http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/22/once-upon-time-sebastian-roche-aurora/?hootPostID=c4482e8368c2bef66ad7c52f1ad36a93 Has "complicated" relationship with Maleficent.

So if this guy has been cast as King Stefan then does that mean that Once's Aurora is not the daughter of the Aurora and Phillip from the animated movie? 

[Dianthus]

I'm cautiously optimistic about Hook making friends in SB. What worries me is that he'll get sucked into all the Let's enable Regina nonsense. One thing I like most about him is that his eyes are (usually) clear. Plus, he's hit Reggie with some truth before, when they were allies. Hell, I could've shipped them then, it would've been fun watching them both stumble along the road to redemption, but I'm glad he ended up with Emma instead.

Echoing previous posts, he's a former villain who seems headed for a happy ending, and he didn't try to bully anyone into handing it over.

[Camera One]

I just read this article about Snow and Charming:

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/once_upon_a_time_snow_white_prince_charming_villains_not_heroes_eddie_kitsis_adam_horowitz-2014-12

 

"Is [being a hero or villain] based on a title or is it based on our actions? We are going to see in the second half villains doing surprising things and heroes doing surprising things," Kitsis says.

 

....But surprisingly it will be none of these gray characters who will have the most trouble when it comes to choosing sides.

 

"I think it will be Snow White and Prince Charming," Kitsis admits.

Say what? If there are any two people that exemplify the title of hero it is clearly the Charmings. Regina has a book of quips on how sick their eternal belief in hope and goodness makes her. Surely Snow (Ginnifer Goodwin) and Charming (Josh Dallas) couldn't be tempted by Rumple and his new partners in crime ... right?

"As far as you've seen!" Kitsis answers. "I don't think you've seen all of their flashbacks."

The aforementioned flashbacks will take audiences back to Season 1 in a time before the curse, both in Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest. Kitsis and Horowitz have revealed that Snow White and Charming have a secret past with Maleficent (Kristin Bauer van Straten), Ursula (Merrin Dungey) and Cruella de Vil (Victoria Smurfit). They think this new trio are the necessary characters to bring some of the Charmings' dark secrets to light.

 

Ugh... moral relativism and ret-conning coming right up!  I already hated how the more flashbacks we got, the more often they had Charming or Snow running to Rumple (eg. having Charming go to Rumple in the episode about the fake Excalibur).  

Edited December 23, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

It is very stupid. Nobody gave Snowing the "title" of heroes. Their actions did. The book didn't even exist in the EF to call anyone anything, so it makes even less sense.

[YaddaYadda]

Not just that, right?  I mean why did David and Snow become heroes in the first place?

 

Because they were fighting King George and the Evil Queen who so happened to be villains.

[YaddaYadda]

I think at this point that is all I can be at any of the spoilers, clues, and hints. It is something they have needed to do on the show, but please don't let him become a Regina apologist too.

 

I'm not sure he will, but the writers have built something nice for Hook that he and Regina might actually be able to have a conversation about what being a villain is like they did back in S2 and the start of S3.  

 

And I take it Maleficent is going to have an extensive backstory given that they cast Aurora's father.  We know Aurora is coming back and was filming before the break.  Did they finish 414?  

 

Again, the second half seems like it will be very, very packed.

[PaperScissors]

Again, the second half seems like it will be very, very packed.

 

I tend to agree. Which is why I'm not so sure about all these comments from A&E about how 4b will focus on the "core characters" more - when will they have time? We have three villains who need at least one backstory each, plus Ariel's back, AND Aurora's family is here too.... plus we have a confirmed Robin Hood backstory too from what I recall.

 

We have a flashback on Snowing's "evil past" (eyeroll) confirmed, something on Hook's backstory (yay) and promises of more Will Scarlett (yay - I really like him). Then we also (I think) have some A&E comments about flashbacks to cursed Storybrooke (which I'm guessing would be a Regina centric, or one of the new villains because otherwise it would be rather boring watching Snow give the bluebird lesson again, or watch Charming lie in a coma). So that's eight. Out of a ten story arc. Throw in August, and what I'm guessing is the inevitiable Rumple flashback, and that's all the flashbacks for 4b, done and dusted. I'm guessing perhaps the "evil Snowing" and Hook stories could be combined with the villains' backstories, but if that's the case it'll become less about the "core characters" and more about the shiny new "Queens of Darkness," so I'm not sure about this promised "focus" on the main characters...

 

So I agree, it's a lot to cram in.

Edited December 23, 2014 by PaperScissors

[BoPeeps]

Too much damned character chaos. Too damned frenetic. Looks like there won't be focus for more than one script page for any of the characters and any of their story lines.

Disappointing but not surprising.

ONCE is becoming fodder for ADHD extremists.

Just freaking breathe for an episode or two, please.

The spoilers so far bode of a team of writers served round table snacks laced with Speed in the writers' room.

[Curio]

Is that film worth watching pre-4B? Or should I just read the Wikipedia summary? I usually catch up on kids films on flights, but I'm not sure I'll fly anywhere in the next few months.

 

Meh, you can probably just Wikipedia it or look at some gifs on Tumblr to get the general idea. It's not a bad movie per se, but definitely not worth sitting through if 4B ends up not being anything like it.

 

Just freaking breathe for an episode or two, please.

The spoilers so far bode of a team of writers served round table snacks laced with Speed in the writers' room.

And when they do breathe, we get scenes like Emma and Regina "bonding" in the forest while fighting off a random CGI Viking that did nothing to advance the plot or Snow and Regina strolling down the street talking about crypt sex. Why can't we have nice things?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Is that film worth watching pre-4B? Or should I just read the Wikipedia summary? I usually catch up on kids films on flights, but I'm not sure I'll fly anywhere in the next few months.

I'm with Curio on this one. Movie is passable, but I doubt it'll have any relevance to 4B. Once tends to gravitate toward the most classical representations, like the original Disney Sleeping Beauty movie.

 

 

Just freaking breathe for an episode or two, please.

 

This show does have slow moments, but they're often fruitless and not worth slowing down for, again like what Curio said. The Snow mayor plot really did nothing for the story at all, and a lot of Neverland was wasted on love triangles and Rumple daddy issues. (Oh my gosh! Another Lost parallel.) I'm guessing they're packing 4B to the brim in order to keep viewers interested, since Frozen is so hard to top.

Edited December 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Bluerang1]

I disagree, I enjoyed the movie so think you should watch it. I'm disappointed but not surprised that Stefan will likely be a villain, I wonder how they'll differentiate this storyline from the movie's though. 

[Rumsy4]

I think Maleficent was a good movie (DVD rental material), but I don't think it needs to be seen before 4B.

[retrograde]

I'll watch it if it's okay, regardless. Given the lack of anything to watch on TV for the next few weeks, my standards are not high right now.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm thinking that one of the stories will be continued into S5. I mean they're opening a whole can of worms with Ursula and her fatherwho isn't just some king but a freakin' God. I wonder if that's not the story they'll be using as a springboard for the next season. No? Anyone?

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm thinking that one of the stories will be continued into S5. I mean they're opening a whole can of worms with Ursula and her fatherwho isn't just some king but a freakin' God. I wonder if that's not the story they'll be using as a springboard for the next season. No? Anyone?

I kinda doubt they'll be delving too much into Poseidon. They'll want to wrap an arc around something more iconic in the Western world. I'm hoping S5 has some sort of mega reset involving the actual plot, like Lost did in its later seasons. (Season 4/5)

Edited December 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

Ask Ausiello:

 

Question: I know it’s early yet, but any Once Upon a Time scoop to get us through this hiatus? —Jenny
Ausiello: As Season 4 unfolds starting March 1, new flashbacks will highlight the Charmings, Ursula’s origin story, more of Captain Hook’s past and the tale of how Regina first met Maleficent.

 

--

Nothing really new. I'm sure Hook's past will only be about whichever villain he's linked to, rather than actually him.

[YaddaYadda]

Nothing really new. I'm sure Hook's past will only be about whichever villain he's linked to, rather than actually him.

 

Of course it will be.  Just like Snowing's flashbacks are to advance whomever's backstory.  I'm guessing whatever Colin was talking about wanting to see for Hook is exactly what we will be seeing on screen.

[maryle]

I really want to stay positive for 4B but  it is harder and harder.

The biggest criticism was too much character which can only give superficial story for each sl.

We have already have more new characters than with Frozen  for4b. And most sl still on going.

The fate story (search for writers) just scares me. Really fate against free will!

 

The only thing that keeps my interest up, except Cruella , is Hook's backstory! So hey!

I just hope they do not ruin it, and if they talk openly about now I'm guessing it will be in the first 6 episodes we know Ursula centric is 5.

[Souris]

FWIW, Colin is following Kristen Bauer and Victoria Smurfit on Twitter, but not Merrin Dungey. So that implies to me Hook has filmed with Maleficent and Cruella, but not Ursula. ::rattles a table, since it's not quite flip-worthy until it's confirmed::

 

Or that's just a big assumption.

[retrograde]

Either way, I don't think they've started filming 4.15 yet.

[YaddaYadda]

So have they cast the recurring king yet?  Is it one of Ernie Hudson and Sebastian Roche or are we talking about someone entirely different?

[Souris]

That is interesting, but there have been pics of him with Merrin Dungey on set. I think they were looking at pics on Colin's phone. They were Storybrooke settings though and not EF settings. 

 

Oh, that's right! Totally forgot.

[KingOfHearts]

 

So have they cast the recurring king yet?  Is it one of Ernie Hudson and Sebastian Roche or are we talking about someone entirely different?

If they're going to play Poseidon like Triton, then maybe he's trying to protect his throne from his own daughter? That wouldn't be terribly strange.

[retrograde]

4.15 is called "Poor Unfortunate Soul" http://www.spoilertv.com/2014/12/once-upon-time-episode-415-title.html?m=1

[RadioGirl27]

A Christmas present from Adam: episode 15 title: "Poor Unfortunate Soul". I think it's from The Little Mermaid.