Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[YaddaYadda]

Emma harrassing Regina about being the savior in that sneak peak means that Regina will be the savior.

 

I'm actually going to argue against this.

 

Regina seems to be going to Emma for assistance and Emma slams the door in her face which fine by me. She doesn't owe anyone anything and the last time she felt she had to do something, she became the Dark One.

 

That said, I don't Regina is going to be the "Savior" as much as it will be a concerted effort to get rid of the banshee/fury or whatever evil is showing up. I'm assuming they hitched a ride from Camelot too.

 

They filmed a scene in the woods where Regina, Leroy, Snow, David and Arthur are all holding hands, so I'm guessing that's how they manage to get rid of the threat.

 

So Emma doing stuff on her own because that's what they expect her to do because of that title vs everyone trying to help Regina defeat the thing...

[Writing Wrongs]

It sounded to me like Emma's demeanor changed a lot when she was talking to Henry and then later when Regina showed up, so if she's faking, it's harder for her to fake with Henry because she doesn't want to hurt him, even for his own good, and so she just had to make it clear that it's not his fault, when I'm not sure a real, full-on Dark One would be that bothered.

 

Even Dark One Rumple at his worst still loved and protected Bae.

[Rumsy4]

They filmed a scene in the woods where Regina, Leroy, Snow, David and Arthur are all holding hands, so I'm guessing that's how they manage to get rid of the threat.

 

So Emma doing stuff on her own because that's what they expect her to do because of that title vs everyone trying to help Regina defeat the thing...

 

It's blatantly obvious when you compare it to the scene where Emma takes on the Darkness. Hook tried to talk Emma out of it, and even Regina was blabbing about finding another way (how?). However, Snow and Charming seemed resigned and were standing well back. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[kili]

. I figure with the past season's patterns Hook's going to be kidnapped or something - at least tied up. :)

 

I call Chekov's dwarf...he's going to be turned to stone and become a wall hanging in Emma's house.

 

Of course, I've been predicting that he's going to end up being frozen in carbonite every season, so I've kind of blunted my own triumph if I'm correct. A stopped watch is right two times a day.

[HoodlumSheep]

There's that random sleeping curse needle that Zelena still needs to use on someone...lol.

[formerlyfreedom]

Posts discussing last night episode do not belong in here, and will be moved. Please discuss SPOILERS ONLY and Spoiler influenced speculation.

[Serena]

Where *are* the press release and stills? We used to get them Monday. Is the Once PR team still on vacation like they've been all summer?

[mjgchick]

They are trying to find ways to troll us all.

[sharky]

Maybe they're stringing it out since we got the episode two preview on Monday. Or they are taking a break after all the hard work they put into that preview poster.

[Serena]

They are trying to find ways to troll us all.

I bet when they come out, they're all Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

I bet when they come out, they're all Regina.

 

The episode looks to be Regina centric, so probably.

 

Makes me a bit more intrigued about the episode title.  So is Emma's turn to the dark everyone's "price" to pay since almost everyone sees her as the Savior?

[mjgchick]

I know people think they turned Emma dark to make her be as bad as the other villains but I'm wondering if this storyline is more about how the others take her for granted especially her parents.

[Free]

So is Emma's turn to the dark everyone's "price" to pay since almost everyone sees her as the Savior?

 

Possibly, so they could do yet another missing time/amnesia plot.

 

I really think it's to do a role reversal, having Emma be evil by being the DO while Regina takes on the role of the Savior for this arc.  The premiere and the sneak peek seems to allude to that, unless there's a plot twist somewhere.

[YaddaYadda]

I really think it's to do a role reversal, having Emma be evil by being the DO while Regina takes on the role of the Savior for this arc.  The premiere and the sneak peek seems to allude to that, unless there's a plot twist somewhere.

 

I know this seems to be the general consensus, but I just don't see it. In fact, I think Regina will flat on her face trying to be what Emma is. From the way Emma is "yelling" at Regina in the after episode sneak peek, I'm thinking that Regina already tried to fill those shoes in Camelot and failed at it.

[Free]

I know this seems to be the general consensus, but I just don't see it. In fact, I think Regina will flat on her face trying to be what Emma is. From the way Emma is "yelling" at Regina in the after episode sneak peek, I'm thinking that Regina already tried to fill those shoes in Camelot and failed at it.

 

It's the way things seem to be heading so far with giving her the dagger, to the sneak peek blatantly talking about how there's not a Savior anymore to Regina.

 

I do think she'll keep failing until the end of the arc though, but that's par for the course for these arcs.

[Rumsy4]

I know this seems to be the general consensus, but I just don't see it. In fact, I think Regina will flat on her face trying to be what Emma is. From the way Emma is "yelling" at Regina in the after episode sneak peek, I'm thinking that Regina already tried to fill those shoes in Camelot and failed at it.

 

I agree that Regina probably failed in Camelot, but A&E love Regina too much to let her fail in the end. Regina gets the flashy finale moments in most arcs since Season 3. Emma outright stating that Regina is going to fail is like tempting fate. I can see Regina taking the savior mantle in this arc (for the third time if we count 3B and 4B). 

[scenicbyway]

We know that Regina fails at something in Camelot, I'm wondering if it was killing Emma.  Obviously, Regina had the dagger and six weeks later, Emma has it again.  I think Regina couldn't actually go through with taking out Emma (probably because of Henry).  How could she face Henry ever again if she killed Emma even if she'd asked her too?

[YaddaYadda]

This is the whole thing that bothers me so much with the whole "destroy me".

 

Is Regina going to command Emma to commit suicide? Because apparently stabbing yourself with the dagger is the only thing that kills the Dark One or whatever we got in 3x11, which I don't really get anyway.

 

Are they searching ways to destroy the Dark One at the same time they're researching ways to get it out of Emma? 

 

Also, am I the only one who doesn't think they used a portal to get back to Camelot? All of Camelot and its inhabitants seem to have been pulled along with them. 

 

And if Regina remembers walking into Camelot, then how come the dwarfs attack Arthur and the knights? Shouldn't it be like "oh yeah, I remember you, even if I don't remember everything."

 

They met Arthur, they should at least know who he is.

[Serena]

We know that Regina fails at something in Camelot, I'm wondering if it was killing Emma.  Obviously, Regina had the dagger and six weeks later, Emma has it again.  I think Regina couldn't actually go through with taking out Emma (probably because of Henry).  How could she face Henry ever again if she killed Emma even if she'd asked her too?

But why would Emma need to be taken out so soon? We see her wearing her "Light Swan" dress as late as 507.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Also, am I the only one who doesn't think they used a portal to get back to Camelot? All of Camelot and its inhabitants seem to have been pulled along with them.

When they come back, there's a flicker of glowing gold light. So somehow they were teleported there. It'll be interesting to see if the Camelot folks lost their memories as well.

[scenicbyway]

But why would Emma need to be taken out so soon? We see her wearing her "Light Swan" dress as late as 507.

Because she's threatening to pull Excalibur, that Merlin warned her as a 6 year old not to do?  I'm guessing that's unleashed whatever Dark Emma said was headed their way.  The others probably know of the prophecy by the time Emma goes full dark and so it's up to Regina to "stop" her but she can't because Henry asks her not to, or some such nonsense.

[Serena]

The final scene made me think Dark Swan took them back to Storybrooke. Like, this was all her plan (clearly the memory loss seems to be). But there must be a reason why? As far as we know, her goals are to chill while everyone runs around trying to Savior, and "punish" everyone except Henry (and, possibly, Hook?). She couldn't have done that in Camelot?

 

I go back to "Arthur is shady". Bringing Arthur to Camelot and erasing his memories of the last 6 weeks (and with them, maybe the way to reunite Excalibur and the dagger? There MUST be some "when the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky" sort of ritual involved) she's setting back his plans. But then, why not just kill him? Unless she, as the owner of the dagger and Arthur, as the owner of Excalibur, are someone connected.

 

Because she's threatening to pull Excalibur, that Merlin warned her as a 6 year old not to do?  I'm guessing that's unleashed whatever Dark Emma said was headed their way.  The others probably know of the prophecy by the time Emma goes full dark and so it's up to Regina to "stop" her but she can't because Henry asks her not to, or some such nonsense.

Isn't Excalibur already pulled? Or did Arthur put it back?

Edited September 29, 2015 by Serena

[Rumsy4]

Would Emma be angry that Regina failed to kill her though? Anyway, Regina killing Emma would just make her the Dark One. So it seems like a terrible idea in any case. 

 

 

This is the whole thing that bothers me so much with the whole "destroy me".

 

Agree. It is a strange choice of words to use. Emma could have just asked Regina to prevent her from doing something terrible. 

 

Also, am I the only one who doesn't think they used a portal to get back to Camelot? All of Camelot and its inhabitants seem to have been pulled along with them.

 

I take it you mean Storybrooke? Weren't there bts shots of Regina, Emma, and Henry with some cauldron for episode 8 (I think)? Maybe Emma cast a Curse to transport them all to Storybrooke. Dark Emma could have designed something similar to the Dark Curse, but not needing a sacrifice.

[Serena]

Back in Storybrooke, Hook deploys a tried-and-true technique in hopes of bringing Emma back to the light

What is it??? Yoga??? Smoochies?? RUM?!? I NEED TO KNOW.

[YaddaYadda]

I go back to "Arthur is shady". Bringing Arthur to Camelot and erasing his memories of the last 6 weeks (and with them, maybe the way to reunite Excalibur and the dagger? There MUST be some "when the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky" sort of ritual involved) she's setting back his plans. But then, why not just kill him? Unless she, as the owner of the dagger and Arthur, as the owner of Excalibur, are someone connected.

 

 

But the sword is his. I know they're prophecies and prophecies can be wrong, but at the start of the show, when Kay is butthurt, he basically lays the prophecy in front of us, telling he won't accept his as his king just because a prophecy by an old wizard says so.

 

I don't know, I thought Merlin's scenes with little Emma was warning her to not taken on the darkness.

 

ETA - I guess we will find out soon enough if Excalibur is with Arthur in Storybrooke since he wears it in Camelot.

 

There was a BTS sometime last week with Jen in her Dark Swan clothes holding Excalibur.

Edited September 29, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[kili]

We know that Regina fails at something in Camelot, I'm wondering if it was killing Emma.  Obviously, Regina had the dagger and six weeks later, Emma has it again.  I think Regina couldn't actually go through with taking out Emma (probably because of Henry).

 

I think Regina does try to stab Emma with the dagger, but the dagger does not work because of the unusal way that Emma became the Dark One. Perhaps Regina stabs Emma and that's how Emma gets the dagger. I can see a scene where she slowly pulls it out and then snarks all over Regina (maybe we'll get another "Oops!" line in the Enchanted Forest. That's still my favourite bit from Zelena). Then, the Neverengers run for it, back to Storybrooke and Emma tags along (or comes up with a new way to cross realms, because why not? Apparently, it is the easiest thing to do ever).

 

Regina has to fail in Camelot because Regina failing  is always the mid-season event (her use of magic leads to a dreamshade fight, her high-noon moment with Zelena does not go well, she can't fix Mariane, she is forced to kidnap Pinochio). Regina's victories aren't nearly as sweet if she doesn't have to struggle to get there. A&E can't make it too easy or it lessens her triumph.

[YaddaYadda]

502 Press Release

 

Back in Storybrooke, Hook deploys a tried-and-true technique in hopes of bringing Emma back to the light

 

lol...another failed TLK for Captain Swan next episode?

[Serena]

I think Regina does try to stab Emma with the dagger, but the dagger does not work because of the unusal way that Emma became the Dark One. Perhaps Regina stabs Emma and that's how Emma gets the dagger. I can see a scene where she slowly pulls it out and then snarks all over Regina (maybe we'll get another "Oops!" line in the Enchanted Forest. That's still my favourite bit from Zelena). Then, the Neverengers run for it, back to Storybrooke and Emma tags along (or comes up with a new way to cross realms, because why not? Apparently, it is the easiest thing to do ever).

I think this is very likely, and I could even see Snowing going along for this (not Hook though, not for a million years, so don't even try it, writers) and that's what what makes Emma succumb to the darkness... but not in 502. This is definitely an event for 509 and 510.

[Rumsy4]

What is it??? Yoga??? Smoochies?? RUM?!? I NEED TO KNOW.

 

lol...another failed TLK for Captain Swan next episode?

 

I was going for the good old Silent Treatment, but a failed TLK does make sense. Sigh... On the other hand (or hook), if they have a second failed TLK for CS, maybe there will finally be payoff by the end of this arc? (I know I know)

Edited September 29, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

So why didn't he try that right after they landed in Camelot?

[YaddaYadda]

So why didn't he try that right after they landed in Camelot?

 

Because they were in Camelot, they were going to find Merlin and everything was going to be fixed since the Apprentice totally hyped up his boss?

 

Now they're back in Storybrooke, he has no idea what happened the last 6 weeks and she's gone over the edge. He's probably desperate. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Maybe Regina and Belle haven't clued him in on TLK being able to break the Dark One curse?

I also think it'll be another failed TLK attempt. If that's so, then a&E are probably aiming to make the CS TLK actually work on the third try (3rd time's the charm after all--still waiting for for that 3rd "As you wish" too).

So we're getting a Charming/Robin Hood team up. It'll be good to have RH interact with a non-Regina person for a change.

Edited September 29, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[sharky]

So can we talk dagger rules? Can you force a dark one to kill themselves? Like, if Regina has the dagger, can she tell Emma to jump off a bridge or something? Because that would help explain how Regina could kill her without becoming the next Dark One.

 

And there was something odd about the premiere. At the end, Regina tried to control Emma with the dagger and instinctively reached for it. Does that mean Regina somehow remembered that she had it with her? That could be interesting going forward if she's trying to control Emma with the dagger, which is why Emma thinks Regina failed her because she still became dark.

 

And this: "while the heroes discover that some unexpected baggage has followed them home from Camelot" I'm pretty positive the unexpected baggage is King Arthur and the others from Camelot.

Edited September 29, 2015 by sharky

[Lieutenant]

I'm trying to think of other "tried-and-true" methods of bringing someone back into the light besides a TLK.  All I'm coming up with is Charming jumping in the way of Snow's arrow to stop her from killing Regina.  Maybe Hook does something like that with the current monster of the week in the Storybrooke timeline?  Huh.  I'm stumped.  But another failed TLK would be so terribly sad.  And it does beg the question, as King of Hearts mentioned, why not just do it in Camelot then, when it appears both were more than willing and of sound mind?

[RadioGirl27]

lol...another failed TLK for Captain Swan next episode?

 

I was going for the good old Silent Treatment, but a failed TLK does make sense. Sigh... On the other hand (or hook), if they have a second failed TLK for CS, maybe there will finally be payoff by the end of this arc? (I know I know)

Yeah, another failed TLK is the first thing that has came to my mind after reading this. And I think it would explain some of the things that A&E have said, like that weird answer about the "whys" of the relationship. Poor Hook :-(

[mjgchick]

And they said they are going to drag the Captain Swan coupling all of 5A so I'm assuming TLK works some where down the line. This is going to suck for poor Killy... My body is ready for it.

[YaddaYadda]

Or maybe it's something he did in Camelot and he is just following his instincts? I mean he has no clue what happened in Camelot, so maybe he replicates something that worked over there ergo "tried-and-true"?

[ABitOFluff]

Or maybe it's something he did in Camelot and he is just following his instincts? I mean he has no clue what happened in Camelot, so maybe he replicates something that worked over there ergo "tried-and-true"?

Right, and if you define "tried-and-true" as something that worked, that doesn't really include a TLK on the Dark One.

 

Rum always seems to work though.

 

On a serious note, Hook always seems to be able to break through Emma's walls when he reminds her of her family's love.

Edited September 29, 2015 by ABitOFluff

[LizaD]

Emma took the dagger back, or was given it, in Camelot when she's still prancing around in her white dress. She had it in those filming pictures with Merlin. So there's a stretch of time between when she gets the dagger and turning dark.

 

 

I don't know, I thought Merlin's scenes with little Emma was warning her to not taken on the darkness.

 

I thought that at first too, but A&E said we'll find out what the warning means in the first 7 episodes with Merlin's origin story and how Emma connects to it no? If it was answered in the premiere it shouldn't have come up in the after premiere q&a.

[YaddaYadda]

If it was answered in the premiere it shouldn't have come up in the after premiere q&a.

 

But it wasn't answered since we're still wondering what it meant. 

[LizaD]

Right I'm saying if all the warning meant was not to become the DO and take on the dagger, A&E would've just said it was answered in the premiere with the reveal that dagger=tip of Excalibur. But they made it sound as if Merlin's warning would come into play later on, that was separate from the 4B finale event. There's no reason to be mysterious about if or explain further if the warning already played out.

“He warned Emma not to pull the sword, we saw Arthur pull the sword, and we realized that the Dark One dagger and Excalibur were meant to be whole, so we’re going to explain to you why that is, why Merlin is where Merlin is,” Kitsis says. “Merlin is going to get an origin story that is going to explain his whole thing, and the Emma of it is going to come in, so that arc will be explained and that warning will be explained right in the first seven episodes.”

To me that quote makes zero sense if the warning meant that Emma shouldn't have taken on the darkness.

[Mari]

If the warning wasn't meant to be taken at face value--don't take the sword out of the rock, Tiny, Tiny Emma--then what's the point of giving it to her?  That just makes Merlin look even extra stupid or evil, because someone that little isn't possibly going to be able to figure out that "don't take the sword out of the rock"  actually means "Don't wave the dagger around while you're in the same room with the rest of Excaliber, after Arthur took it out of the stone and set it down on that marble table."

[Scovies]

Since everyone seems to be thinking there'll be a failed TLK on Emma, what do we know about this show and how TLKs work? The reasons they can fail are:

 

1. Amnesia (not applicable here, since it's only 6 weeks and not a lifetime of memories that are missing)

2. The Dark One choosing to pull back and retain his/her powers (a la Rumple in "Skin Deep")

3. Emma and Hook are not True Loves (on this show? Yeah, right.)

4. Emma doesn't have her heart.

 

Options 2 and 4 seem most intriguing. I can also see Hook asking Henry to try it on Emma, because he already "failed" at a TLK in New York (does Hook even realize that TLKs don't work if someone doesn't have their memories?).

 

Edited to add:

 

5. Emma is faking being the Dark One, and thus there is no curse to actually break.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Scovies

[kili]

4. Emma doesn't have her heart.

You do not need a heart to have a TLK. Regina TLKed Henry when she had no heart in 3B

 

2. The Dark One choosing to pull back and retain his/her powers (a la Rumple in "Skin Deep")

Technically, the kiss was working and it proved that they were true loves. Rumple just stopped kissing before the kiss finished its work.

 

I suspect that A&E want to keep the "are they or aren't they TL" arrow in their quiver and make it a big moment (with Rumbelle, they could not turn Rumple good at that point (it was in the past), but they wanted to confirm that they were True Love). So, I can't see them having a CS  TLK that starts working, but does not finish.

 

What I can see them doing is ret-conning that a TLK can/cannot cure a Dark One curse which would only add another campaign to the shipping wars and should CS ever TLK, the shipping wars will declare that TLK a ret-con.

 

If Hook does try a TLK, I hope it is stopped long before the lip-lock stage or things are going to get ugly. Of course, A&E likes ugly ("Look! Everybody is talking about the show"), so they will probably have a failed TLK with all the fixings and CS fans can look forward to another lecture on rape culture.

[Mari]

You do not need a heart to have a TLK. Regina TLKed Henry when she had no heart in 3B

 

Technically, the kiss was working and it proved that they were true loves. Rumple just stopped kissing before the kiss finished its work.

 

I suspect that A&E want to keep the "are they or aren't they TL" arrow in their quiver and make it a big moment (with Rumbelle, they could not turn Rumple good at that point (it was in the past), but they wanted to confirm that they were True Love). So, I can't see them having a CS  TLK that starts working, but does not finish.

 

What I can see them doing is ret-conning that a TLK can/cannot cure a Dark One curse which would only add another campaign to the shipping wars and should CS ever TLK, the shipping wars will declare that TLK a ret-con.

Um . . .

Regina feels deeply, with her soul, not with her heart, like everyone else.  We learned this during season 3, I believe.

 

As for a failed TLK, there's another difference.

 

Belle and Rumple fell in love when he was the Dark One.  Belle fell in love, not with Rumple the man, but Rumple the Dark One.  Plus, it wasn't regular Rumple that fell in love with Belle, but Dark One Rumple.

 

Hook and Emma fell in love when Emma was simply Emma.  Since the Dark One takes over so very much of your personality, it is possible they can use that as an out.

 

(And you're right.  This is probably going to end up in some pretty ugly shipping war.)

[mjgchick]

But Jennifer said she still loves Hook even if she's the dark one. In the words of Oprah Winfrey: "So what Is the truth?"

[Shanna Marie]

Emma may resist the TLK because of the worry that if she's freed from the Dark One, all that would happen is releasing the Darkness, and they're back to where they started. She won't let go of it until she knows there's a way to destroy it once it's out of her. So Hook may go in for a kiss, hoping that will cure her, but right now, she doesn't want the cure unless it can be destroyed for good. Since she took it on in a different way than Rumple did, they have some room for handwaving to say it wouldn't have worked that way for Rumple. Or there's the possibility that Rumple saved Belle by not letting the TLK finish because it would have released the Darkness, and she'd have been the next target. So what may happen is that Hook attempts a TLK, it starts to work, and she stops it because she wants to be sure they're destroying the Darkness, not just releasing it.

[PixiePaws1]

There is photo of Emma in her Grey cloak and dress on the Spoilers site. ..sorry I am unable to link. She is lying on her back in very low light and looks either paralyzed, dead (as she could be on this show) or incapacitated. Her eyes look open.....knocked over by something? ?

Edited September 30, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[Rumsy4]

 

Emma may resist the TLK because of the worry that if she's freed from the Dark One, all that would happen is releasing the Darkness, and they're back to where they started.

 

With the way Dark!Emma is trying to seduce her pirate in the spoiler pictures, I doubt she is afraid of a kiss breaking the Dark Curse. Besides, I don't think Emma wants to be freed from the Dark Curse at this point. She gave in to the Darkness at some point in Camelot, and seems to be relishing in her power.

[Shanna Marie]

With the way Dark!Emma is trying to seduce her pirate in the spoiler pictures, I doubt she is afraid of a kiss breaking the Dark Curse. Besides, I don't think Emma wants to be freed from the Dark Curse at this point. She gave in to the Darkness at some point in Camelot, and seems to be relishing in her power.

I was thinking more about the spoiler mention of Hook trying something "tried and true." That sounded like it referred to Camelot, and at that time, she may have resisted because she wanted to destroy the Darkness, not risk releasing it. But six-weeks-later Dark!Emma might not be too worried because if she doesn't want the curse to break, she can kiss him all she wants without it doing anything, and if she's really that dark, it might not even be True Love on her part anymore. She may hold him in some kind of contempt or have a grudge or be like Rumple and love power more.