Aaron Hotchner: High and Tight

[Droogie]

Fan of Shemar.  Passive-aggressive social media posts, not so much.  The wording here is suspect, IMHO, and I'm not convinced this isn't a reference to "Kickgate."  I know what the article says, but the post itself is hinky.  Especially perplexing is that it's now deleted.  And if Shemar went there, I'm very disappointed in him.

Just my two cents.

:::adjusts tinfoil hat:::

Edited August 13, 2016 by Droogie

[normasm]

Methinks Shemar had better pipe down. He might be a contender for a new/old job.

[zannej]

Maybe Shemar intended for it to be about the lawsuit but when people thought it was about TG he took it down? I don't know what he's thinking so I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt.

I was reading elsewhere that apparently TG's mother has been ill (not sure if it is true). That can add to his stress if it's true.

[normasm]

Could be that Shemar was talking about the lawsuit, like you say. And, yes, i have heard that TG's mother is quite ill.

[MMC]

1 hour ago, zannej said:

From everything I've read, TG is a very warm and sweet person most of the time but that if he gets his buttons pushed he can lose his temper-- but a lot of people are like that. I think everyone loses their temper sometimes. He's only human.

While I don't like the victim blaming and death threats toward Virgil, I don't think that he is entirely blameless. I do think he provoked TG, but maybe didn't expect him to make the mistake of getting physical. I also think that the whole thing got blown up out of proportion. On one hand, I can understand his anger at being kicked, on the other, I think his behavior on Twitter after-the-fact was opprobrious. If it were a domestic situation and not a workplace situation, I wouldn't care if he gloated.

It really is a sad situation. I hope that TG can go home, rest, spend some time with the kids, and then move on with his life and find someplace to work where he can be happy.

CBS/ABC cannot in all seriousness allow Virgil Williams to remain with the show not with the attitude of the fandom towards him. Which he himself is largely to blame for due to his attitude on twitter. So they either need to ship him off to that spin off or elsewhere.

[JMO]

5 hours ago, normasm said:

Oh, gosh that makes me sad.

Actually, it seems like TG's son is one of the few people who has his head on straight in this whole thing.  Good for you, James Parker Gibson!

[normasm]

Yes, I agree, JMO, but it still makes me sad. Not just for the kids, but for TG feeling their support. It means they aren't children anymore, and they know a bit about the crap of the adult world. James does seem very mature.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, MMC said:

CBS/ABC cannot in all seriousness allow Virgil Williams to remain with the show not with the attitude of the fandom towards him. Which he himself is largely to blame for due to his attitude on twitter. So they either need to ship him off to that spin off or elsewhere.

The thing is, if ABC/CBS were going to do that, I think it would have been announced with Gibson's exit. So it seems CBS/ABC are willing to keep Williams on staff. Since both entities likely are aware of both men and their issues, I guess they figure Williams is worth keeping on, for whatever reason.

[Willowy]

Virgil is staying. The 'fandom' doesn't have that much power, MMC. They can't dictate who stays and who goes from the show. And by the way, I find myself more and more siding with Virgil who is legally in the right here. And I'm in the 'fandom', and have been for many years. People blindly sucking up to and excusing Gibson? I really don't know what to say to them.

[KFC]

2 hours ago, Franky said:

Virgil is staying. The 'fandom' doesn't have that much power, MMC. They can't dictate who stays and who goes from the show. And by the way, I find myself more and more siding with Virgil who is legally in the right here. And I'm in the 'fandom', and have been for many years. People blindly sucking up to and excusing Gibson? I really don't know what to say to them.

Some people will overlook a lot, including the obvious, apparently, in defense of their favored ones. Even violent outbursts in the workplace.

Thank god "the fandom" doesn't dictate behind-the-scenes personnel decisions.

[alexvillage]

Quote

From everything I've read, TG is a very warm and sweet person most of the time

From actual TV people who know one another and the dynamics (in semi-private conversations):

TG is known for being dismissive of his co-workers [in context, other actors] too

[Vicky8675309]

Shemar sounds more like he is talking about TG rather than the law suit situation (especially the part about humble people)

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/thomas-gibson-shemar-moore-video-919381

Edited August 14, 2016 by Vicky8675309

[smoker]

I want to apologize for the rambling. This is just my opinion and I hope nobody takes offence.

I just let it out because this is so depressing... preseason is becoming a summer soap. One would think they know what a media liaison is, and I get they are happy or indifferent but they could have kept it to themselves. All of them.

I don't know if Charlie Sheen hit someone or not, maybe he didn't on set, but he has been accused of abusing women several times.

Kelsey Grammer behavior was horrible, he doesn't have any contact with his coworkers and they worked together 11 seasons and everybody was as discreet as possible. He even was accused of rape for God's sake!

Don't forget  Isaiah Washington behavior towards TR Knight.  And Patrick Dempsey and Isaiah Washington argument was legendary, it was said there was a fistfight, but they finished the season.

I don't condone violence. I don't.

I don't know what happened there, we only know whatever they want us to know. Period. That's why I think if TG felt threatened I think a suspension was enough punishment because intention matters, maybe more than 2 episodes, but being suspended was enough in my book. Moreover, I don't know in the United States, but here  martial artists are considered as armed people when they are in a fight by law.

However, I think the 2010 incident deserved a dissmisal because he attacked someone without any doubt, someone who had to swallow his pride to keep his job and that's unfair. So they let that attack slide 5 years ago while they point fingers on their high horses now.

Sorry, but I think there are other questions involved here, money, politics, his behavior of course, but not only that. So please, CBS/ABC, stop wagging the dog. You could fire him. It was legal and you did it. Ok, but don't try to fool us with "doing the right thing".

Edited August 14, 2016 by smoker

[Droogie]

I agree with you to a large degree, Smoker.  I wonder about the shoving incident on 2010 though -- ostensibly Gibson was angry bc he had just done a dangerous stunt without clear parameters.  I'm not a person who would shove anyone, but I can see adrenaline being a factor, and then add in one, possibly two, alpha male personalities.  As with this recent incident, why weren't the police called?  "Assault" is a serious accusation.  Call the police.  I'm not negating the seriousness of one person putting his hands on another.  But if it's serious enough that you seek to strip a person of his livelihood and utterly besmirch his character, I'd think it would have warranted a criminal charge.  Just my humble opinion.

***I'm not excusing violence.  This is a disclaimer I feel like I've had to add to every post I've made the past couple of days.***

I'm angry about the Variety article.  I see it as rubbing salt in a wound.  Kicking a man when he is down.  Is that necessary?  He was fired, largely without preamble.  It's done.  Do they think that article is going to turn long-term fans against him?  Unlikely.  Some will stop watching, some will not.  Diehard fans are for the most part mad.  We have been robbed of a logical end for a beloved character.  It's Gibson's fault, ultimately.  That doesn't make it any more palatable.  That doesn't mean that I don't personally think it should've been dealt with differently.

Is Thomas a scapegoat of sorts?  Very possibly.  Are others culpable?  Very, very possibly.  It sucks all around.

Finally, Thomas Gibson has been a regular on our small screens since the 90s.  Not one time until 2010 was there ever any word about bad behavior on his part.  Incidentally, that marks the time his personal life began to unravel.  He had three small children and was traveling halfway across the country every weekend to try to maintain his family.  His marriage imploded and he acted out in public and humiliating ways.  Now we hear that he has an elderly mother in poor health.  Clearly he is being pulled in multiple directions.  I am starting to believe he may be suffering from depression.  Depression in men often manifests as anger and a lack of control.  I think it could be a factor in his recent behavior.  I hope he uses his time off to rest and reflect.  And I don't think public browbeating is in the least bit necessary.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Droogie

[JMO]

15 minutes ago, Droogie said:

I agree with you to a large degree, Smoker.  I wonder about the shoving incident on 2010 though -- ostensibly Gibson was angry bc he had just done a dangerous stunt without clear parameters.  I'm not a person who would shove anyone, but I can see adrenaline being a factor, and then add in one, possibly two, alpha male personalities.  As with this recent incident, why weren't the police called?  "Assault" is a serious accusation.  Call the police.  I'm not negating the seriousness of one person putting his hands on another.  But if it's serious enough that you seek to strip a person of his livelihood and utterly besmirch his character, I'd think it would have warranted a criminal charge.  Just my humble opinion.

***I'm not excusing violence.  This is a disclaimer I feel like I've had to add to every post I've made the past couple of days.***

I'm angry about the Variety article.  I see it as rubbing salt in a wound.  Kicking a man when he is down.  Is that necessary?  He was fired, largely without preamble.  It's done.  Do they think that article is going to turn long-term fans against him?  Unlikely.  Some will stop watching, some will not.  Diehard fans are for the most part mad.  We have been robbed of a logical end for a beloved character.  It's Gibson's fault, ultimately.  That doesn't make it any more palatable.  That doesn't mean that I don't personally think it should've been dealt with differently.

Is Thomas a scapegoat of sorts?  Very possibly.  Are others culpable?  Very, very possibly.  It sucks all around.

Finally, Thomas Gibson has been a regular on our small screens since the 90s.  Not one time until 2010 was there ever any word about bad behavior on his part.  Incidentally, that marks the time his personal life began to unravel.  He had three small children and was traveling halfway across the country every weekend to try to maintain his family.  His marriage imploded and he acted out in public and humiliating ways.  Now we hear that he has an elderly mother in poor health.  Clearly he is being pulled in multiple directions.  I am starting to believe he may be suffering from depression.  Depression in men often manifests as anger and a lack of control.  I think it could be a factor in his recent behavior.  I hope he uses his time off to rest and reflect.  And I don't think public browbeating is in the least bit necessary.

I tried to like this multiple times, Droogie, but it wouldn't let me.  TG's behavior does have all the hallmarks of depression, including the misuse of alcohol.  I hope he at least gets evaluated for it.  It would be a shame, although not at all unusual, if it had gone six years untreated.  HR departments tend to reflexively refer to 'Anger Management' classes, just as child welfare refers to 'Parenting classes'.  The literature says that neither have ever been shown to work.  But treatment for depression?  Miraculous.

Edited August 14, 2016 by JMO

[KFC]

Variety reporting on a lead actor being fired from a show following an act of violence and outbursts is called doing their job, not rubbing salt in the wound.

The network, studio and creative executives will all bend over backward to appease the actors. *Very* rarely will a lead actor actually face repercussions for his or her actions, unless it's either a long history of abuses (someone pointed out Charlie Sheen upthread) or a breach so serious that it cannot be swept under the rug.

The fact that TG was fired for this makes it obvious he's been a huge problem behind the scenes, but I guess some fans would rather believe he's the victim of some conspiracy-theory scapegoating.

The lengths that people are willing to rationalize what would otherwise be deemed inexcusable in any other context or industry is pretty staggering. 

Edited August 14, 2016 by KFC

[amensisterfriend]

Quote

I think kicking someone and resorting to physical violence on multiple occasions is way more childish than passive-aggressive, vaguely worded Instagram posts.

Quote

The fact that TG was fired for this is makes it obvious he's been a huge problem behind the scenes, but I guess some fans would rather believe he's the victim of some conspiracy-theory scapegoating.

The lengths that people are willing to rationalize what would otherwise be deemed inexcusable in any other context or industry is pretty staggering.

 

 

 

Agreed. I get wanting to believe the actors we love watching and who play characters we adore are likable and admirable in real life, but I personally can't begin to defend TG here. And this isn't the first incident we know of where TG's judgment and self-control has been seriously called into question. I can only imagine that, as with nearly all workplaces, there's a lot we DON'T know about how he conducts himself. 

As much as I once enjoyed Hotch, I'll also venture the unpopular opinion that he's been kind of a joyless zombie since around the middle of S5 for me. What I used to see as a 'still waters run deep' thing became just a really dull, flat character. There's a whole lot wrong with the show, but I don't think losing TG/Hotch will necessarily make it any worse for me. Obviously all just my opinion! 

Edited August 14, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[thewhiteowl]

Temper, temper. There is a handy "ignore" feature. Use it if you need to. Everyone is welcome to post civilly. 

Be civil or be gone. 

[JMO]

1 hour ago, KFC said:

Variety reporting on a lead actor being fired from a show following an act of violence and outbursts is called doing their job, not rubbing salt in the wound.

The network, studio and creative executives will all bend over backward to appease the actors. *Very* rarely will a lead actor actually face repercussions for his or her actions, unless it's either a long history of abuses (someone pointed out Charlie Sheen upthread) or a breach so serious that it cannot be swept under the rug.

The fact that TG was fired for this makes it obvious he's been a huge problem behind the scenes, but I guess some fans would rather believe he's the victim of some conspiracy-theory scapegoating.

The lengths that people are willing to rationalize what would otherwise be deemed inexcusable in any other context or industry is pretty staggering. 

In my 'industry', which is medicine, we don't deal in black and white.  We deal in 'why' and 'how', and conduct ourselves accordingly.  We analyze, and treat, and do our best to understand.  We look at dynamics, and 'cause-and-effect', and know the complexities of how things work, both within, and among, humans.  We see behaviors as symptoms, and not causes for blame.

Edited August 15, 2016 by JMO

[Willowy]

I'm not angry at Variety, or Deadline, or even TMZ. They're doing their jobs and reporting what's going on. Should they somehow not do that? I don't think so. And as an aside - I would bet good money that Thomas IS in therapy, and has been for years.

The tendency to excuse his bad behavior because people love the character he plays is amazing to me. People are willing to handwave legalities, and call out others reporting on it simply because they love Hotch. Thomas isn't Hotch.

As far as blame goes, JMO, he did it. He did the thing. That means he gets blamed. For doing it. 

Sorry, it's been three days and I'm exhausted. The fact remains - HE DID IT. And he did other things, too. He doesn't now get to be all indignant because people are calling him on it. And he doesn't get one shred of sympathy from me, no matter how much of a twit Virgil can be.

[thewhiteowl]

I feel sure in assuming that TG felt provoked and that a kick didn't fall from a clear blue sky. However, feeling provoked doesn't excuse his own lack of self control. He had choices he took the physical one and has paid. He isn't handing out excuses. I'm sure he knows he can't because there isn't one.  Others can excuse him as is their prerogative. He isn't asking for sympathy or excuses. I like that. 

[secnarf]

TG doesn't really need to offer excuses or defend himself. Look at all of the people doing that for him - including a not-inconsequential segment of fans.

[WendyCR72]

30 minutes ago, thewhiteowl said:

I feel sure in assuming that TG felt provoked and that a kick didn't fall from a clear blue sky. However, feeling provoked doesn't excuse his own lack of self control. He had choices he took the physical one and has paid. He isn't handing out excuses. I'm sure he knows he can't because there isn't one.  Others can excuse him as is their prerogative. He isn't asking for sympathy or excuses. I like that. 

Perfectly stated.

[JMO]

7 minutes ago, Franky said:

 

As far as blame goes, JMO, he did it. He did the thing. That means he gets blamed. For doing it. 

 

 I'm sure that, for a lot of people, it seems that simple.  He's to blame, get rid of him, problem solved, offender dispensed with, situation resolved.  

For a clinician, bad behavior is symptomatic of a deeper problem.  It's still bad behavior, and it still has consequences.  But it always stems from something, an event, or a trait, or even an illness, and dealing with it requires thought, and compassion, and treatment.  Find the root cause and treat that problem, maybe even resolve it, and you save both the individual and the situation.  I get that there's less emotional satisfaction up front with that approach, but it's most definitely worth the lifelong payoff in the end.

[FormerMod-a1]

This is a workplace though, not a clinic or hospital or therapist's office.  You don't keep your other employees in harm's way while you analyze and understand.  

[BookWoman56]

2 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

As much as I once enjoyed Hotch, I'll also venture the unpopular opinion that he's been kind of a joyless zombie since around the middle of S5 for me. What I used to see as a 'still waters run deep' thing became just a really dull, flat character. There's a whole lot wrong with the show, but I don't think losing TG/Hotch will necessarily make it any worse for me. Obviously all just my opinion! 

Agreed. I was never a fan of Hotch, but at least in the first few seasons there was some character development and a real person there. The last couple of seasons, the scripts have reduced his role to almost nothing. I've remarked before that you could replace TG with one of those Disney animatronics, programmed to say, "Wheels up in 30," and not lost anything in terms of story for most episodes. I can understand the frustration, the stress of family problems, etc., but he crossed a line that cost him his job. I do like that he hasn't tried to excuse his behavior, just basically made positive statements about the show and its people. From my perspective, the worst downside to his action is that it pretty much removes any hope that the show will fire Virgil for being such a horrible writer.

Presumably TG will be spending more time here in San Antonio now. I doubt that I will ever encounter him in a public setting, but if I do, I will have to resist the impulse to ask him exactly WTH was going on behind the scenes on the CM set.

[WendyCR72]

5 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

This is a workplace though, not a clinic or hospital or therapist's office.  You don't keep your other employees in harm's way while you analyze and understand.  

Agreed. This being an ensemble show - ostensibly - means other people, actors and crew alike, should not have to endure such a hostile work environment.  The medical environment is a different animal. And with Gibson having had anger management, I'd think that constitutes trying to "understand" his triggers.

Obviously, it was inadequate. But his coworkers shouldn't have to hope that understanding comes at the expense of others when he becomes angry. Gibson isn't 10. He's 54 years old. More than enough time to know what behavior is acceptable in a workplace environment and what is not, IMO.

[Willowy]

14 minutes ago, JMO said:

 I'm sure that, for a lot of people, it seems that simple.  He's to blame, get rid of him, problem solved, offender dispensed with, situation resolved.  

For a clinician, bad behavior is symptomatic of a deeper problem.  It's still bad behavior, and it still has consequences.  But it always stems from something, an event, or a trait, or even an illness, and dealing with it requires thought, and compassion, and treatment.  Find the root cause and treat that problem, maybe even resolve it, and you save both the individual and the situation.  I get that there's less emotional satisfaction up front with that approach, but it's most definitely worth the lifelong payoff in the end.

Okay, but that's not the job of his producers to do that for him. They aren't medical professionals and this show is not a hospital. They contracted this man to do a specific job, and he went outside the parameters of acceptable workplace behavior. Broke the law. Hurt someone. If he needs help, he gets it on his own time, whatever problem he's having doesn't give him license to be dangerous to his co-workers on set.

[JMO]

Quote

This is a workplace though, not a clinic or hospital or therapist's office.  You don't keep your other employees in harm's way while you analyze and understand.  

Agreed.  The appropriate thing to do is to remove, and analyze, and treat.  Hospitals and clinics are also workplaces.  We try to practice what we preach.

Quote

Gibson isn't 10. He's 54 years old. More than enough time to know what behavior is acceptable in a workplace environment and what is not,

Illness doesn't respect age, unfortunately.

Quote

Okay, but that's not the job of his producers to do that for him. They aren't medical professionals and this show is not a hospital. They contracted this man to do a specific job, and he went outside the parameters of acceptable workplace behavior. Broke the law. Hurt someone. If he needs help, he gets it on his own time, whatever problem he's having doesn't give him license to be dangerous to his co-workers on set.

Yes, that's how it's playing out.  I'm simply attempting to explain why some of us see this very differently.  Life would be a lot simpler if there was only 'right or wrong' or 'good or bad', but that's not the way life is.  

[autumnmountains]

20 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

This is a workplace though, not a clinic or hospital or therapist's office.  You don't keep your other employees in harm's way while you analyze and understand.  

 

12 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Agreed. This being an ensemble show - ostensibly - means other people, actors and crew alike, should not have to endure such a hostile work environment.  The medical environment is a different animal. And with Gibson having had anger management, I'd think that constitutes trying to "understand" his triggers.

Obviously, it was inadequate. But his coworkers shouldn't have to hope that understanding comes at the expense of others when he becomes angry. Gibson isn't 10. He's 54 years old. More than enough time to know what behavior is acceptable in a workplace environment and what is not, IMO.

Both very true. I know of one situation at my job several years ago (and I'm not going to get into all of it, not the time nor the place) they kept an employee who had threatened someone with a box cutter knife. Over 20 people, including me saw it but they did nothing to that person, she eventually just moved to another state. During that time, we were scared she would try  again and be successful, but as I said, she was allowed to stay.

 

Do I feel sad for Thomas, yes, I do,  but, for me, in the end of the day, he made his bed and has to lay in it. Even if someone taunts you verbally, etc, you don't get to strike out at them. Just my two cents :)

[Willowy]

What is it that you see differently? Thomas did a bad thing. Fired. Now everyone has to clean up his mess. Hopefully he'll go off and get help.

The reasons behind it don't matter to the situation at hand. He's not going to get rehired because he was 'stressed out' or any clinical diagnosis. He's not going to suddenly become a hero because someone finds out he needs help with his alcohol addiction. I'm at a loss what the variables are here. It's pretty cut/dried. 

[Enigma X]

Since I have been liking some posts here when I really only agree with half of what has been stated, I want to clarify that I am a Hotch and Gibson fan but by no means am I fan of his behavior. Yes, I do believe that something else may be going on with him, and in the future, I hope to see him on my screen and hear he is well mentally. Still, unless defending yourself or a loved one from violence, I personally do not agree with hitting/kicking or any violent behavior. I don't necessarily think that this incident makes him a bad human being though.

[JMO]

17 minutes ago, Franky said:

What is it that you see differently? Thomas did a bad thing. Fired. Now everyone has to clean up his mess. Hopefully he'll go off and get help.

The reasons behind it don't matter to the situation at hand. He's not going to get rehired because he was 'stressed out' or any clinical diagnosis. He's not going to suddenly become a hero because someone finds out he needs help with his alcohol addiction. I'm at a loss what the variables are here. It's pretty cut/dried. 

Maybe I'm just not articulate enough, or maybe we really do live in different worlds, because there is no 'cut and dried' in mine.  There have been many times I've wished it to be so, many times I've wished I could simply dispense 'justice' and not see the pain and turmoil behind the bad behavior.   Because, once I see that pain and turmoil, I can't condemn the person--only the behavior.  

You seem to have the impression that I am arguing for Thomas to be reinstated.  As per all of my previous posts over the past few days, I am not.  I understand that he had to be dismissed.  What I don't understand is the portrayal of him as anything other than a troubled individual.  

The reasons always matter.  How else can we ever work to make anything better?

[WendyCR72]

If Gibson had an illness that affected him alone, that's one thing. Like, God forbid, cancer or some physical malady. That's unfortunate but would not involve those he works with.

It's quite another if an illness can potentially cause harm to other people in his midst. Are they just supposed to suck it up and walk on eggshells to please Gibson 100% of the time? I don't think that's fair or realistic.

Coworkers will disagree. It's simple fact. And that should not come with the risk of being physically attacked because of that difference of opinion. So, even if I were to buy illness, in this case, since it appears Gibson cannot control his rage issues/outbursts, he doesn't belong on set right now. And this comes with the caveat that even if the coworker is trash talking, it is never acceptable to attack with violence. Walk away. Go to the network and report them. But physical violence isn't, IMO, acceptable to have to live with whenever Gibson gets angry.

Which is seemingly how CBS/ABC see this, too.

[Mysteyman]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

This is a workplace though, not a clinic or hospital or therapist's office.  You don't keep your other employees in harm's way while you analyze and understand.  

Perfectly said.

[autumnmountains]

16 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

If Gibson had an illness that affected him alone, that's one thing. Like, God forbid, cancer or some physical malady. That's unfortunate but would not involve those he works with.

It's quite another if an illness can potentially cause harm to other people in his midst. Are they just supposed to suck it up and walk on eggshells to please Gibson 100% of the time? I don't think that's fair or realistic.

Coworkers will disagree. It's simple fact. And that should not come with the risk of being physically attacked because of that difference of opinion. So, even if I were to buy illness, in this case, since it appears Gibson cannot control his rage issues/outbursts, he doesn't belong on set right now. And this comes with the caveat that even if the coworker is trash talking, it is never acceptable to attack with violence. Walk away. Go to the network and report them. But physical violence isn't, IMO, acceptable to have to live with whenever Gibson gets angry.

Which is seemingly how CBS/ABC see this, too.

Agree with so much. 

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, JMO said:

 I'm sure that, for a lot of people, it seems that simple.  He's to blame, get rid of him, problem solved, offender dispensed with, situation resolved.  

For a clinician, bad behavior is symptomatic of a deeper problem.  It's still bad behavior, and it still has consequences.  But it always stems from something, an event, or a trait, or even an illness, and dealing with it requires thought, and compassion, and treatment.  Find the root cause and treat that problem, maybe even resolve it, and you save both the individual and the situation.  I get that there's less emotional satisfaction up front with that approach, but it's most definitely worth the lifelong payoff in the end.

I agree with much of what you have said, JMO, especially this.

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

This is a workplace though, not a clinic or hospital or therapist's office.  You don't keep your other employees in harm's way while you analyze and understand.  

Nobody is saying that - at least, not within the context of this conversation. It seems - here, at least - the general consensus is that he should have been fired or at least suspended for longer than 2 weeks. JMO certainly wasn't arguing that he shouldn't be fired. As JMO said, bad behaviour has consequences regardless of the cause, but understanding the cause is important to actually fix the problem and prevent it from causing more problems in the future.

And as someone who works in a hospital, including time on a couple different psychiatric units, I would like to add my voice to those pointing out that hospitals are workplaces. Prisons are workplaces. The set of a TV show is a workplace. All deserve the same protection.

49 minutes ago, Franky said:

What is it that you see differently? Thomas did a bad thing. Fired. Now everyone has to clean up his mess. Hopefully he'll go off and get help.

The reasons behind it don't matter to the situation at hand. He's not going to get rehired because he was 'stressed out' or any clinical diagnosis. He's not going to suddenly become a hero because someone finds out he needs help with his alcohol addiction. I'm at a loss what the variables are here. It's pretty cut/dried. 

I think - and I am only speaking for myself here - what I see differently is that this action did not happen in isolation. Life is rarely as simple as X happens therefore Y. The variables have been pointed out in many many other posts. Unless you witnessed the event and all preceding events, there are going to be variables because not all of the details are (or will ever be) public and hearsay should be taken with a grain of salt.

There is a reason courts take into account mitigating and aggravating factors when sentencing a person for their crimes. The crime demands a certain punishment, but there are other factors at play, and to look at the act in isolation is to risk completely misunderstanding the situation and applying a sentence that is either too harsh or too lenient.

Also, it is really sad that the second part of your post is probably true. It would not be the case if TG was not in such a public profession. Having said that, other "difficult" actors still manage to find work, but it certainly will impact his career in a negative way.

[FormerMod-a1]

Where's the same compassion and consideration for the other guy, the producer? Rather than saying he was to blame as the provoker, why not the same sympathies? 

[Mysteyman]

Well he has my sympathies.

but if Gibson pursues legal action, that writer will be made to look like Attilla The Hun.

[ForeverAlone]

And if there are any skeletons in Thomas's closet, any depositions will also bring them to light. Both sides stand to lose much, so if legal action is pursued, I bet this will be settled out of court. 

[Danielg342]

28 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

Where's the same compassion and consideration for the other guy, the producer? Rather than saying he was to blame as the provoker, why not the same sympathies? 

I agree. I think the easy reason is that Hotch is a well-liked character and Virgil Williams has garnered vitriol for incidents on Twitter towards fans of the show as well as questions over his ability as a writer. I know on my end I don't particularly think Williams is all that great as a writer, but I'm not going to use that to get out my pitchfork and find reasons to blame him for somehow getting Thomas Gibson fired.

For me, if there was anything really all that bad about Williams in the studio or on set, we would have heard about it, and not just from "sources close to Gibson". I think the fact that CBS chose to do nothing to Williams while escalating Gibson's suspension into an outright termination says volumes. Usually studios do their utmost to protect their show's most valuable star, but that didn't happen here.

I do feel bad for Williams. I'm sure during the incident Gibson not so casually reminded him of his reputation and may even told Williams he's not so high up the totem pole. Probably Williams worried that the studio wouldn't believe him and they'd take Gibson's side. Williams probably also figured he'd hear it from the fans about "being the guy that fired Gibson". So it must have taken some courage to go up there and report the show's most famous actor, and I bet he was relieved to know the studio took his side. I'm sure now there's part of him that wishes this whole thing would just "blow over" because I can't think he'd be too happy there's a petition out there to get him fired, and Gibson's lawsuit probably adds to his stress.

I know we as fans like to go on about actors and directors, but I'm not sure how many people truly do appreciate the writers- after all, it's their choices and their dialogue that the actors and directors bring to life, and yet we as fans largely think of the writers as disposable. I'm sure Williams thinks this every day. I know I don't think too highly of Williams' abilities as a writer, but I also know I can't compare his Twitter actions and his writing to what Gibson did to him, and I can't help but think this frustrates him.

Perhaps Williams doesn't have the writing talents to stay at CM. That's not an unfair opinion. However, baying for his blood after Gibson was turfed just doesn't feel right, especially considering his writing talents have nothing to do with what Gibson did.

[orza]

Williams could still press criminal charges, which Gibson would likely plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid a trial. That would impact a civil suit. I imagine if Gibson decides to sue that is what Williams will do,

[Mysteyman]

I am wondering if  Shemar will  be asked to come back to take over the team.

CBS might want to handle this in house instead of hiring a new actor.

[SSAHotchner]

59 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

Where's the same compassion and consideration for the other guy, the producer? Rather than saying he was to blame as the provoker, why not the same sympathies? 

I don't have compassion for the writer/producer because he was the instigator of the altercation, we have not heard that he has any injuries, and he has conducted himself in a childish, still taunting way. If he felt threatened at work, why would he goad Thomas to begin with? Also constantly putting it out there and acting out his martial arts skills seems like pretty aggressive behavior on his part to me. His posts on social media have been gloating and self-serving. No indication that he suffered at all or that he was afraid to come to work. Prior to this incident he has engaged in arguments on social media sites whenever a poster makes a comment that is at all critical of an episode he has written. Rather than learning from these viewers as to whether what he wrote was plausible, made sense, fit with the character as he/she had been established, he'd just snark at them and then block them. So, no, not a lot of sympathy for Virgil. He hasn't lost his job. However, there's a good chance that this whole scenario will bring the show to a close this season and then many others will be out of work as well. For my money, I don't see Virgil getting picked up by another shows since his writing is mediocre to poor and his temperament isn't the greatest to work with. 

[WendyCR72]

11 minutes ago, SSAHotchner said:

I don't have compassion for the writer/producer because he was the instigator of the altercation

Unless you were there, you have absolutely no way of knowing that.

[Mysteyman]

 The ironic things is, if Gibson was more like   Hotch this never would have happened.

[zannej]

I imagine the fact that TG hasn't come forward with details and his side of the story is probably due to legal issues and it's possible that the semi-silence is part of an agreement to avoid having criminal charges pressed for assault and battery. Virgil or one of the witnesses could have called the cops, but it sounds like he just went to his agent and then to CBS about it. Now, this could be either because he could have gotten in trouble too OR because he was not intending to get TG fired, but wanted CBS to make it clear that kicking someone over a disagreement was not acceptable behavior.

It seems things escalated afterward and we will probably never know what happened because with a pending lawsuit, I'm pretty sure everyone involved has to keep quiet.

I know some people are angry. I'm just disappointed.

If TG is acting out due to depression, I hope he gets help.

Was it someone here who posted a Tweet from a friend of Paget's that said something about "maybe the writer looked like a football"? I can't remember...

[smoker]

I know TG is an actor, a real human being and Hotchner is just a character on a tv show. 

Just because I think things should have been managed differently (on both sides) doesn't mean I can't see the difference between fiction and reality.

We'll see if those "capable" writers can say the same soon enough.

Edited August 15, 2016 by smoker

[FormerMod-a1]

7 hours ago, SSAHotchner said:

If he felt threatened at work, why would he goad Thomas to begin with? Also constantly putting it out there and acting out his martial arts skills seems like pretty aggressive behavior on his part to me. His posts on social media have been gloating and self-serving.

But maybe there's an underlying reason for all that.  Why not speculate about his home life, and his personal issues, and his demons that made him a "goader", "gloating" or "self-serving"?  That's what I was getting at.  If the person that got physical deserves all that analysis and compassion, surely the victim does too.

[normasm]

9 hours ago, JMO said:

Maybe I'm just not articulate enough, or maybe we really do live in different worlds, because there is no 'cut and dried' in mine.  There have been many times I've wished it to be so, many times I've wished I could simply dispense 'justice' and not see the pain and turmoil behind the bad behavior.   Because, once I see that pain and turmoil, I can't condemn the person--only the behavior.  

You seem to have the impression that I am arguing for Thomas to be reinstated.  As per all of my previous posts over the past few days, I am not.  I understand that he had to be dismissed.  What I don't understand is the portrayal of him as anything other than a troubled individual.  

The reasons always matter.  How else can we ever work to make anything better?

Very well said, JMO. But I'm afraid those who still want their "cut" to be "dry" will not be able to comprehend.