Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I agree; why is she out there? Iris can box, fight, and handle a firearm. What can Caitlin do without her KF powers in the field? Doesn't that just make her a liability? No wonder Caitlin wants KF back; she knows that's her ace for getting out into the field.

Makes no sense at all. She never used to go out into the field, so why start now? It would make much more sense for Iris to go out there than Caitlin. 

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Makes no sense at all. She never used to go out into the field, so why start now? It would make much more sense for Iris to go out there than Caitlin. 

You know a certain fandom will find a way to praise Caitlin and justify her going out into the field when she can provide no help whatsoever without KF's powers; these are the same who slam Iris for being a leader in STAR Labs when Iris isn't a scientist. Such hypocrisy!

[Trini]

On 5/4/2018 at 5:32 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I was mostly going by Mystery Girls words. She said she was meeting people for the first time and it was obvious who they were. IF she's meeting Caitlin for the first time, Caitlin either dies or leaves the team. Mystery Girl looks like an adult from her time. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Caitlin leaves the team (again).

I just don't have any speculations or expectations for Caitlin's arc. They've been so very inconsistent about her and Killer Frost, at this point I'm like, 'whatever'.

[Trini]

Nothing in the marketing for 4.21 makes me want to watch. I think I'll be reading reactions before I watch.

[ursula]

Prayer circle that they make Caitlin the season 5 Big Bad and get rid of her character for good. 

[Kate45]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Nothing in the marketing for 4.21 makes me want to watch. I think I'll be reading reactions before I watch.

The extended promo is out and it looks like Barry is trying to train Cisco and Caitlin to be on Flash Time with him ?. Such a stupid plot. Both of them have been in Flash Time before and they didn't last long. It would make more sense for Barry to bring Iris in with him. But, I'm sure they are pandering to the OTF crowd. It looks like an awful episode, and it was written by Kristin Kim and Sam Chalsen. It's a pass for me at this point.  

[ruby24]

So....I had assumed that if we ever did get a Barry/Iris sex scene or post-sex scene it would be for the purpose of setting up an Iris pregnancy in the season finale, because it would make sense to show at least SOME scene of implied intimacy between these two before announcing she's pregnant, and they barely ever show them at home anymore.

We didn't get that, but since they did go to the trouble of adding a less than 30-second scene showing them in bed together with Barry shirtless at the end of this one (two scenes of Barry shirtless, funnily enough), I half wonder if this was it. The "implied intimacy" needed to throw in there before an Iris pregnancy reveal. 

[Trini]

 

I think the little device Iris is holding is one of Cisco's interdimensional breach gadgets. So I guess that Barry wants to send Iris (and maybe Joe and Cecile?) to another earth just in case they can't stop DeVoe?

[Trini]

EW Spoiler Room:

Quote

Now that the team realizes Marlize is DeVoe’s kryptonite, in many ways, Iris will put it upon herself to track her down, hoping to possibly sway Marlize to their side. Suffice it to say, Barry will be apprehensive about this turn of events. “When Iris wants to find Marlize and send citizens after Marlize, that seems sketchy to Barry,” Grant Gustin says. “Now it feels like we’re having people do our job for us a little bit. But Barry, as he tends to do with Iris, eventually comes around and sees it from her point of view, that Marlize is probably the only good thing left about DeVoe, and maybe that would benefit us, and we’ll be able to use that to get through to him.”

 

I wonder if this is for the next episode, or the finale? This isn't a bad development, but it's coming so late in the season.

[Trini]

Not new information, but a confirmation from Candice that 'Mystery Girl' is part of Season 5:

[Trini]

Finale trailer:

 

Poor Cecile. Just let her have a peaceful offscreen delivery; she doesn't deserve to be involved in all this Thinker mess.

[Maverick]

I knew Cecile would be this season's duex ex machina. 

[Quark]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

 

 

Poor Cecile. Just let her have a peaceful offscreen delivery; she doesn't deserve to be involved in all this Thinker mess.

I love Cecile, she has been my favourite thing about this relatively poor season. I really hope she isn't about to die in the finale.

[Trini]

Season finale photos are out:

Cecile better NOT give birth in STAR Labs!

 

[Trini]

Apparently the producer preview for the finale leaked:

[Trini]

EW Spoiler Room:

Quote

As I previously revealed, there will be two cliffhangers at the end of the season, one of which Grant Gustin calls “one of the most exciting” the show has ever done, while the other is “one of the most dark and confusing.” Gustin clarifies, “When I say confusing, it’s more like, in Flash world you just desperately want to know, ‘What does this mean?’ The first one gets you really excited about what’s to come, then the second one probably is going to make your stomach hurt, and want the next season immediately.”

http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/17/spoiler-room-arrow-blacklist-once-upon-a-time/

[Trini]

Aw, I hope the season's end is more happy than sad, because they need to do a happy finale cliffhanger at least once!

[BeautifulFlower]

On 5/16/2018 at 5:11 PM, Trini said:

Season finale photos are out:

Cecile better NOT give birth in STAR Labs!

 

Oh you know she will. Everything has to happen in Star Labs. We're no longer allowed to see Central City anymore. None of the characters (well Barry, Iris, and Joe) are allowed to have lives outside of the place anymore. I'm sorry but Cisco, Harry, and Caitlin were characters designed specifically for Star Labs only. I don't think they were made to have anything outside of it.

[adora721]

26 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Oh you know she will. Everything has to happen in Star Labs.

 

26 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Cecile better NOT give birth in STAR Labs!

Not only will Cecile give birth in the lab,  Caitlin will deliver the baby, and they will name her Frosty or Caity or FrostyCait or Sphygmomanometer  or Large Hadron Collider West!

[BaggythePanther]

On 5/16/2018 at 5:11 PM, Trini said:

Season finale photos are out:

Cecile better NOT give birth in STAR Labs!

 

Why does Barry even bother with a cowl at this point?

[Hook75]

Is Harry going to get  DeVoe's brain at the end of this?

Or is Barry going to not remember anything?

[Trini]

I figure they'll SOMEHOW find a way to reverse the Enlightenment process, so Harry's brain will be saved that way. And DeVoe will have to die, but I think there's a chance that they can save Ralph's body/mind.

[Trini]

Season 5 teases from this Helbing interview:

Quote

Will we get a definitive answer on Mystery Girl’s identity in the finale?
Yeah, it’s funny that you bring that up. Yeah, you definitely get the question answered as to who she is, and there’s actually an extra little bonus where something happens where you’ll realize exactly how she’ll play a part in the future.

...

Will you dropping any hints as to who the villain is going to be next season?
It depends on how the cut turns out, but yeah. We filmed something that will be up next season, and most people that are familiar with comics will probably be able to deduce who the big bad is for next season. I’m not sure my mother will know, but if it ends up in the cut — depending on how much time we have. There are two cliffhangers: There’s the explanation of who mystery girl is and how she’ll play into next season, then there’s also a potential tee-up for who the villain is.

...

[referring to their 'big bad' villains:]... Any time you can humanize your villain, it makes it land a lot more, so it’s not so much about the powers and what a metahuman has — if they’re speedsters or not, or if they’re just this amazing computer mind that the Thinker has — but I think it’s more about telling a human story that’s gonna land with the audience. So that is certainly something that we’ve taken into account for the next season, and we are going to probably be more in that lane.

[ruby24]

I think he's right about focusing on the human part of a villain- having it be just a guy in a mask for so long was a mistake in seasons two and three. Neil Sandilands was much better in his human form (the body-hopping was what didn't work with him, imo- it was probably an idea they thought was cool in concept, not so much in execution).

I'm glad he sees that part of it, but how about they also experiment on having more than one villain? How about three different villains in a season? Or two mini-villains that end up leading into the bigger one?

I just think sustaining one Big Bad every single year leads to the same exact formula of the team trying and failing to stop him over and over again, until they have to win in the season finale, because...it's the finale.

They can mix up the villain thing in different ways though, if they tried. They could do a mostly episodic season until a two part finale. They could do successive villains in a series of mini-arcs, like I mentioned before. They could have the villain be on the show for the audience and the main characters are totally unaware of him until WAY later in the season- I say that because them knowing who they're fighting, or even knowing they're fighting someone leads to very monotonous exposition in every single episode that's always the same thing ("We have to stop so-and-so"). 

They do NOT have to follow the same exact formula every year.

Edited May 21, 2018 by ruby24

[Trini]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

They can mix up the villain thing in different ways though, if they tried. ...

I was thinking they could intro the main villain in the first part of the season (before winter break), have a mini-arc with another villain for those middle-of-season episodes that tend to drag/wander, then come back to the main villain for the last 8 or so episodes.

---

Coming back to this for a minute:

On 5/16/2018 at 10:04 PM, Trini said:

Apparently the producer preview for the finale leaked:

 

I just hate that they're introducing this new way to fight DeVoe in the finale itself. That's just poor planning. In any case, why does Barry have to go into DeVoe's mind? (Yeah, I know he's the hero.) But I would think that Marlize would be the better person to go since she knows DeVoe the best.

I am looking forward to the finale, and I am curious about how they resolve some things, but the lead-up in this back half has really drained the excitement for the conclusion of the Thinker/Enlightenment arc.

[ruby24]

5 minutes ago, Trini said:

I was thinking they could intro the main villain in the first part of the season (before winter break), have a mini-arc with another villain for those middle-of-season episodes that tend to drag/wander, then come back to the main villain for the last 8 or so episodes.

---

Sure! ANYTHING. 

They could vary it up every season. They've done the exact same thing four seasons in a row, how about trying one where there's three separate villain arcs, another one that's mostly adventure of the week, with a two or three parter to close the season out, and one where it's henchmen who are working for some ultimate bigger villain that doesn't get revealed until later? That could take you all the way through season 7.

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

Sure! ANYTHING. 

They could vary it up every season. They've done the exact same thing four seasons in a row, how about trying one where there's three separate villain arcs, another one that's mostly adventure of the week, with a two or three parter to close the season out, and one where it's henchmen who are working for some ultimate bigger villain that doesn't get revealed until later? That could take you all the way through season 7.

They actually did switch it up in season 3 with Alchemy and Savitar. They just didn't utilize Alchemy as well as they should have for them to be separate villains.

But, I completely agree that a change needs to come into play in season 5. 

[Maverick]

I am so hoping Mystery Girl is someone, anyone other than Barry and Iris' daughter if only because the writers think they are being so clever yet it's painfully obvious who she is. But last year I was hoping Savitar would be someone, anyone other than Barry and I think I'm in for a similar disappointment this year  

[BeautifulFlower]

25 minutes ago, Maverick said:

I am so hoping Mystery Girl is someone, anyone other than Barry and Iris' daughter if only because the writers think they are being so clever yet it's painfully obvious who she is. But last year I was hoping Savitar would be someone, anyone other than Barry and I think I'm in for a similar disappointment this year  

You're going to be disappointed then. Back in November for the crossover, they already said in an interview that Mystery Girl is someone connected to Barry and Iris.

[Trini]

Another quote from Helbing about Mystery Girl:

Quote

"Just as it seems like there aren't any more mysteries or problems to solve for Team Flash, they get this unexpected answer," Helbing says of the Mystery Girl's big reveal. "It leads into a bigger question of what's going to happen in Season 5 with Barry and Iris and the rest of the team."

He specifically mentions Barry and Iris...

Also from Candice:

Quote

Why do you feel viewers have become obsessed with the identity of the Mystery Girl?

Well, there hasn’t been a lot of her and there hasn’t been a lot of story there. I think people are curious and interested and they know we wouldn’t continue to put someone on the show for no reason. People are naturally very curious to what her role is and how it will play out.

It developed over time, but we knew early on who her character would be and how it would eventually unfold this season. I’m still curious to how it’s going to look for next season. There should be some really great stuff for Iris to play with, and for Barry as well.

...

The next logical step for Iris could involve a baby. How would you feel going down that path? What would that add to the Iris/Barry dynamic?

I don’t know. I don’t know if we will see Iris pregnant for a very long time. But, that doesn’t mean we won’t potentially see children of Barry and Iris.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Maverick said:

I am so hoping Mystery Girl is someone, anyone other than Barry and Iris' daughter if only because the writers think they are being so clever yet it's painfully obvious who she is. But last year I was hoping Savitar would be someone, anyone other than Barry and I think I'm in for a similar disappointment this year  

There's a slim chance that she's Barry & Iris' granddaughter; but I think their daughter is the best bet.

[Whodunnit]

Wasn't Thomas/Tommy the name of Caitlin's dead brother?

ETA: apparently Charlie was her brother's name. Perhaps Thomas was her father?

Edited May 23, 2018 by Whodunnit

[ruby24]

So how do they handle the time jump next season, considering that cliffhanger? Every season has to have one. In Season 2 they resolved the cliffhanger through flashbacks but still jumped forward, in Season 3 Barry spent months in Flashpoint but when he got back months had passed apparently (this one was the shakiest), and then this season of course he spent six months in the Speed Force.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

So how do they handle the time jump next season, considering that cliffhanger? Every season has to have one. In Season 2 they resolved the cliffhanger through flashbacks but still jumped forward, in Season 3 Barry spent months in Flashpoint but when he got back months had passed apparently (this one was the shakiest), and then this season of course he spent six months in the Speed Force.

I wish they would show what happens during the "hiatus", but it's probably going to end up like all the others. We don't know what type of problem it is that they need to solve for Nora, but it's going to look dumb if they're all stalled for 5+ months.

[Maverick]

 Seriously?  The Council of Wells again?   That shit was too over the top for Legends.  OK, well after the Legends finale that might not be true but the Council still sucked ass.  They're just a little Maybe they'll do it like that wonky transition between season 1 and season 2 of Legends.  "Hey, remember that Mystery Girl that showed up and said she was our daughter....and then she just vanished!"

[Trini]

EW Spoiler Room:

Quote

Please tell me you have more scoop on how Barry and Iris are going to react to their daughter showing up on The Flash! — Gina

It’s certainly going to take a while for the pair to really reconcile what their daughter showing up means, particularly for Barry, who knows the consequences of time travel. “If you can imagine having one of your children showing up who’s already an adult, who’s around the same age as you, it’s gonna be a little weird for them,” EP Todd Helbing says. “But there’s this huge emotional component of this finale — Iris makes a comment about how they’re next to have a kid, and then their kid shows up a little sooner than I think either of them were expecting and under quite a bit different circumstances. So it’s going to take a while for them both to get used to her being around. And then on top of it, there’s the complications of all the consequences that are going to come from her going back 30 years.”

[Trini]

Season 5 spoiler roundup from the various Helbing interviews; I tried to put things together by category/character:

Season 5 villain:

Quote

It depends on how the cut turns out, but yeah. We filmed something that will be up next season, and most people that are familiar with comics will probably be able to deduce who the big bad is for next season. I’m not sure my mother will know, but if it ends up in the cut — depending on how much time we have. There are two cliffhangers: There’s the explanation of who mystery girl is and how she’ll play into next season, then there’s also a potential tee-up for who the villain is.

Quote

You said there would be a hint at the new villain for season 5 in the finale.

What happens more often than not is, we shoot a lot of stuff in the finale that gets cut. So for time we had to cut it. It was gonna be the tag at the end of the episode. But we’ll get it out; the public will see it before the season starts. Maybe we’ll release it online or at Comic-Con. But yeah, it just it came down to a time thing.

Quote

... Any time you can humanize your villain, it makes it land a lot more, so it’s not so much about the powers and what a metahuman has — if they’re speedsters or not, or if they’re just this amazing computer mind that the Thinker has — but I think it’s more about telling a human story that’s gonna land with the audience. So that is certainly something that we’ve taken into account for the next season, and we are going to probably be more in that lane.

Quote

"It's just part and parcel for this world but it is nice to have a villain that we can change up what Barry's obstacle and the team's obstacles are and how to take somebody down so The Thinker, DeVoe, [was] a lot of fun and we certain see the benefits of doing that, having a meta that isn't a speedster and the new ways that we can pose challenges for those guys is fun so I think for next season, it's certainly not going to be a speedster."

Quote

... To me, what's the most interesting about villains are not the meta human qualities but the human qualities, so I think we did pretty good with DeVoe and Marlize, and I think we can do that again with our new villain for next season.

Quote

I think we certainly needed to take a break from Speedsters. I really like the more human qualities of villains than the meta-human qualities, so for next season, we're going to follow that trend.

Nora Allen:

Quote

Hat's off to Jessica [Parker Kennedy], because when we sat down with her, it was like, 'Look, are you open to basically coming for five scenes in a year, then coming back next season?' It's a big ask for an actor and she's so amazing and cool and great to work with and she was totally down with it.

Quote

... Yeah, you definitely get the question answered as to who she is, and there’s actually an extra little bonus where something happens where you’ll realize exactly how she’ll play a part in the future.

Quote

Next season we'll sort of explain the times — why she chose those times to come back to visit — and then ultimately what the mistake is. I'm sure, as you can imagine, meeting your daughter who's essentially the same age as you would have some emotional reactions. With Barry and Iris, as you saw in the finale, Iris made that comment, "We're next," and Barry seemed a little apprehensive about jumping into having children so early. Then, less than a minute later, he meets his future daughter, so yeah, it's a little shocking to them. Just as Barry's learned all the lessons that he learned from time travel and the consequences of it, it's going to be interesting for him to be on the other side of it when he learns about what Nora's done and what problems are coming because of it.

Quote

... And pretty quick into the season, you're going to learn exactly what time period she's from and what her dynamic is with her parents.

Quote

Well, I mean, a lot of it is obviously all about next season. Barry certainly learned his lesson about time travel and the effects that it can have. She comes back for a specific reason, not only to see her parents and meet everybody on the team, which you saw all throughout the season — there’s four specific times that she came back, and you’re gonna learn about why she chose those four times and how they’re gonna play into not only the mistake that she made, but the consequences for somebody like her, a speedster traveling from the future to the past, and what that means for Barry and the team.

Quote

Yeah, she comes from 30 years in the future, so 30 years from now, a lot has happened. She’s privy to information that nobody else is, so her experience in the future is certainly different than where everybody is now. A lot of next season too, you’re gonna see this relationship between Barry and Iris and Nora, so we just wanted to give the audience a little glimmer into what her reaction is to everybody. If you go back and watch all of the ways that she interacted with everybody, you can get a nice little sense of what her relationship is with everybody in the future.

West/Allen family:

Quote

... These guys are jumping into parenthood as adults with an adult. So they missed a lot of the bonding and sleepless nights and just getting to know your child as a baby — they missed all that stuff. They jumped right to meeting somebody as an adult, so for us, it was how do we play these first introductions in a new way? So it's been a lot of fun.

Quote

I think we're going to play with a lot of the real emotions when you have a child and how that changes your relationship, when you're parents. ... There will be parent Barry and parent Iris and then Barry and Iris. Also, the different philosophies of being a parent. When you're on the same page and when you're not on the same page and when you figure out that you need to be on the same page to be effective. It's going to be compounded, this issue, because they're now parents to an adult. So they didn't get that learning curve that most parents get.

Quote

It's funny because Joe has raised two kids, and then he was the father of Wally when he discovered he had a son. He keeps becoming a parent in new ways. Some of his experiences with Wally, meeting Wally as an adult and how you can step into that role, is certainly going to influence Barry and Iris, but Joe's going to be dealing with his own version of it at the same time. They're going to be on two literally different timelines. I think we'll get a lot of the Joe-Barry, Joe-Iris, "Joe Dad Speeches" as we call them.

Quote

A lot of next season is going to be exploring this question of, what is it like to meet your daughter at basically the same age you are?

Caitlin:

Quote

It completely changes her thinking about her powers and obviously where they came from. It's the main mystery for her next season, and it's going to lead her down a path that she certainly did not expect to walk down.

Quote

... And then with Caitlin, she had one understanding of where her powers came, and you’ve met her mother in the past seasons, you got a little glimpse of her father. But there’s gonna be a new dynamic with Caitlin and her family in season 5.

Ralph:

Quote

... We love Hartley, and we love Ralph, and there's a tremendous amount of Ralph Dibney stories that we haven't tapped into from the comics yet that we certainly want to do, so it's going to be great to have him around... He's grown a lot this season, and I think there's some more growth to happen with him.

Quote

So it was always the plan to kill him and then bring him back to join the team at the end, and then to be part of the next season.

*Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhh*

Wells 6.0:

Quote

I don’t want to tell you yet who he is, but when I was up there in Vancouver shooting for the finale, I talked to Tom for quite a bit about it. We landed on a pretty fun and interesting new Wells to join the team.

*Uuuuuuuuuggggggggghhhhhhhhh*

General info:

Quote

So, in Season 4, towards the second half of the season, we wanted to redefine where everybody is in this universe, as far as the team and what their roles are. I think next season, we want to do the same thing, even a little bit more so because the cast is expanding a little bit. We're sort of forced to but it helps us story-wise with splitting them off into pairs or pairings. We're going to get Iris out in the field again investigating and writing more. And Ralph, we explored a little bit of his detective side but not really, so next season we're going to dive into that a little bit more. Cisco is going to have a story. It's going to help us, hopefully, and not hurt us.

Quote

One of the themes for next season is family. When you’re dealing with a show that jumps around, obviously with Barry, Nora, and Iris, it’s gonna be family, with Joe and Cecile and the new baby, there’s family, and then Ralph is part of this new family. ...

 

I don't like how he didn't have details about what Cisco will be up to. I hated how his powers got sidelined, his arc with Cynthia got reduced, and how he ended up mainly propping Harry's story this past season.

Ralph adds nothing that the team doesn't already have, I don't get why they feel the need to keep him around; especially since they usually have to literally disable everyone else so he can be useful. STAR Labs is crowded as it is, and I assume his mentorship arc with Barry is over, so now what??

However I'm glad they will put some focus back on the West/Allen family - the heart of the show.

[Trini]

Also, take some of this with a grain of salt, because Helbing already lied in a previous interview about Ralph's story being over.

[ruby24]

I think they will introduce Sue as a romantic subplot for Ralph. I don't mind as much about him sticking around, because now that his sacrifice story is over, they won't repeat the same "becoming a hero" episode with him over and over and over again, and have everything focused on him. That was my biggest problem with it. I know that won't happen now. 

[Airraz0r]

On 5/22/2018 at 9:22 PM, Whodunnit said:

Wasn't Thomas/Tommy the name of Caitlin's dead brother?

ETA: apparently Charlie was her brother's name. Perhaps Thomas was her father?

Charlie was brother to Caitlin's earth-2 doppelganger

[Airraz0r]

On 5/8/2018 at 7:02 PM, Trini said:

I just don't have any speculations or expectations for Caitlin's arc. They've been so very inconsistent about her and Killer Frost, at this point I'm like, 'whatever'.

That's because the writers & showrunners retconned her (in particular) & other characters so much to accomodate Iris.

[SevenStars]

27 minutes ago, Airraz0r said:

That's because the writers & showrunners retconned her (in particular) & other characters so much to accomodate Iris.

To accommodate Iris how ?

[Kate45]

7 hours ago, Airraz0r said:

That's because the writers & showrunners retconned her (in particular) & other characters so much to accomodate Iris.

This assertion made me laugh. Every character has been retconned to accommodate Iris? Ok, lol. That makes zero sense, and it literally cannot be supported by any aspect of the way the show is written. 

It's quite the opposite. In fact, Iris lost her career for a large part of this season just to prop up and accommodate this team. 

It seems to me that several characters have lost their moral compass just to accommodate Caitlin. I'll never forget when Iris claimed that Savitar was manipulating Killer Frost to get her to work with him. When did that happen?  It didn't. KF just wanted to work with him. She literally got nothing out of it. Iris had to bend over backward to support her storyline. Even though KF has never shown any remorse for her role in trying to kill Iris and for actually killing HR.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 5/25/2018 at 1:38 PM, Airraz0r said:

That's because the writers & showrunners retconned her (in particular) & other characters so much to accomodate Iris.

You must have Iris confused with Ralph. He's the one who has sidelined literally everybody this season.

How did the writers rebooting the Killer Frost story accommodated Iris? Accommodate means to help someone. I don't see how Caitlin's story helped Iris. If anything, the constant rebooting of Caitlin's story, has shown how Caitlin needs to be written off. The writers have no idea of what to do with her. She was introduced as the team doctor and she will always be that. Having powers will not change that. If she gets Killer Frost back, she will still be team doctor, spouting out any science mumbo jumbo for plot, and get knocked out in battle. Nothing will change. It's time for her to go. Also, the reboot has shown Caitlin's true colors.

I get not liking Iris, but I don't understand things like this. If you don't like how something was done on the show, why place all the blame on Iris?

I've seen so many comments like this.

[BeautifulFlower]

17 hours ago, Kate45 said:

This assertion made me laugh. Every character has been retconned to accommodate Iris? Ok, lol. That makes zero sense, and it literally cannot be supported by any aspect of the way the show is written. 

It's quite the opposite. In fact, Iris lost her career for a large part of this season just to prop up and accommodate this team. 

It seems to me that several characters have lost their moral compass just to accommodate Caitlin. I'll never forget when Iris claimed that Savitar was manipulating Killer Frost to get her to work with him. When did that happen?  It didn't. KF just wanted to work with him. She literally got nothing out of it. Iris had to bend over backward to support her storyline. Even though KF has never shown any remorse for her role in trying to kill Iris and for actually killing HR.

Ugh, I hated that. Especially with the way the writers had Iris act towards Marlize.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

The writers have no idea of what to do with her.

This is my biggest takeaway with Caitlin since about season 2.  Their big ideas for Caitlin has been 1) to make her Doctor of Everything 2) shuffle her into a chemistry-less romance with the new guy of the season (I was rather surprised they didn't go there this season with Ralph) 3) deploy her Killer frost persona in the most baffling, contradictory, least logical way possible 4) make her selfish and betray the team.

I agree they did retcon her, but that has nothing to do with Iris. To imply that her KF abilities are not a because of the particle accelerator is an yet another iteration of they have no idea what they are doing when writing her KF persona.  KF was potentially a great plot element to propel Caitlin forward in her role and they've completely botched it.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

This is my biggest takeaway with Caitlin since about season 2.  Their big ideas for Caitlin has been 1) to make her Doctor of Everything 2) shuffle her into a chemistry-less romance with the new guy of the season (I was rather surprised they didn't go there this season with Ralph) 3) deploy her Killer frost persona in the most baffling, contradictory, least logical way possible 4) make her selfish and betray the team.

 

Season 1: Team Doctor, grieving Ronnie, found Ronnie, Married Ronnie and Ronnie died.

Season 2: Team Doctor, dates Zoom, creates a drug for Zoom, discover Zoom's true identity, gets kidnapped by Zoom and gets PTSD by Zoom

Season 3: Team doctor, discovers powers, dates Julian, goes full on KF, sides with Savitar,tries to murder her friends,leaves the team

Season 4: Comes back to team, Team Doctor, revealed to have work with Amunet, loses KF, discovers KF is still apart of her, acts selfish to try to get her back, discovers KF is from her childhood, goes through another KF retcon

In S1-2, her story was literally tied to a man. It sort of changed in S3, but the whole KF thing was messy. Instead of having her go evil on her own, they made her powers make her evil. She got free pass to try to murder her friends. In season 4, literally nothing happened for majority of it until the end.

Now that think about it, does any of Caitlin's story ever add anything to the main plot?

[adora721]

On 5/25/2018 at 11:38 AM, Airraz0r said:

That's because the writers & showrunners retconned her (in particular) & other characters so much to accomodate Iris.

There are a group of people who latched on to the idea that Caitlin was Barry's confidante, pep-talk giver, and budding love interest in season 1. So, when Iris became privy to Barry's secret and Barry confided in Iris, got pep-talks from Iris, and showed romantic interest in Iris, this group believed that Iris "took Caitlin's place."  I guess now they call it a retcon.

Of course, had these same people actually paid attention to season 1 and not blocked out Iris and Barry's interactions and dialogue, they would have seen that:

1. Barry was confiding in Iris for years before meeting Caitlin (or anyone else in STAR Labs).
2. Had always been in love with Iris.
3. Was constantly being given supportive talks by Iris.

In fact, so many of the SB vids I've seen use season 1 images and scenes for a lot of their content. These people are stuck in season 1 and won't let it go, even though season 1 had Caitlin be the one who saw the Iris West-Allen byline on the future newspaper, so Caitlin herself knew Iris was literally Barry's future.

I'm really eager to hear the OP explain how Caitlin and others were "retconned" to "accommodate Iris".

[Trini]

19 hours ago, DearEvette said:

This is my biggest takeaway with Caitlin since about season 2.  Their big ideas for Caitlin has been 1) to make her Doctor of Everything 2) shuffle her into a chemistry-less romance with the new guy of the season (I was rather surprised they didn't go there this season with Ralph) 3) deploy her Killer frost persona in the most baffling, contradictory, least logical way possible 4) make her selfish and betray the team.

I agree they did retcon her, but that has nothing to do with Iris. To imply that her KF abilities are not a because of the particle accelerator is an yet another iteration of they have no idea what they are doing when writing her KF persona.  KF was potentially a great plot element to propel Caitlin forward in her role and they've completely botched it.

Responding in the Caitlin thread.

[Trini]

To me, it sounds like they will try and make next season's villain sympathetic, and maybe there'll be more backstory. I'm really curious about the scene that was cut from the finale - the one that was going to tease the next villian - they way Grant described it, I thought it might be something/someone that connects to one of the main characters.