Morality in Storybrooke / Social Issues: Threads Combined!

[InsertWordHere]

So we've now seen every main character's heart (Henry's is not pictured). I think they're pretty accurate, except for Snow's stupid spot, which can kind of be explained away by the eggnapping, I guess. Robin's is not dark, despite the show sometimes trying to compare his past thievery to other dark actions. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[KingOfHearts]

12 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

So we've now seen every main character's heart (Henry's is not pictured). I think they're pretty accurate, except for Snow's stupid spot, which can kind of be explained away by the eggnapping, I guess. Robin's is not dark, despite the show sometimes trying to compare his past thievery to other dark actions. 

The eggnapping black spot explanation makes 2B look even worse. Snow was stressing out about doing something dark and tainting her soul, but it turns out that wasn't the first time. In fact, stealing Maleficent's baby was much worse than killing Cora in self-defense. So why does one act make her want to promise to be better, but the other makes her want to die?

Edited May 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[tri4335]

Because one affected Regina and the other did not!

[legaleagle53]

On 5/4/2016 at 10:04 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Plot twist: Eva is Cora's long-lost sister she met as a child before Eva's evil mother erased their memories. Snow and Regina are cousins. Regina married her own uncle. Henry's mother is also his great aunt and great-step-grandmother.

I'm surprised the writers skipped the opportunity to make the gene pool even smaller than the puddle it already is.

They might as well rip off Shakespeare (let's face it, your proposed plot twist sounds like the plot of a newly discovered "lost" play of his), since they've bastardized even Greek mythology now.  Maybe we'll get Hamlet, MacBeth, King Lear, or Romeo and Juliet for 6B.

Edited May 7, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Mari]

I'm not sure where to put this rant, so it's going here, because it sort of vaguely fits here.

I've seen the occasional comment about Emma feeling guilty and being blamed because Robin died because she and the others went to save Hook.  And, well, it's TS, TW, so quite possibly. 

But, that's not what happened.

A whole lot of things combined that lead to Robin's death, but Emma was only peripherally involved.

• The flashbacks proved that Hades was already aware of Zelena, and thought she could restart his heart.  Obsession commenced. He wanted out of the Underworld, and liked Zelena.
• The present proved he was already aware of Storybrooke, and interested in it.  He thought that was what Zelena wanted.  Therefore, if he's getting out of the Underworld, that's a worthy place to go.
• The present proved that popping back and forth were not, actually, that hard.  (See Red.)  So, all he had to do was get Zelena there--which he could have eventually manipulated or dealed with someone to accomplish.
• Yes, Regina was down there to help Emma, and while she was there helping Emma, she encouraged Zelena to start a relationship with Hades, which lead to his heart restarting.  However, since Regina is not tied to a dagger allowing Emma to make choices for her, Regina made that "Go to Hades!" recommendation on her own. 
• Zelena chose to start a relationship with Hades.  Yes, Regina encouraged her, and yes, helping Emma was the reason Regina and Zelena were in the same place to give/receive bad advice, but all that did was speed things up.  Zelena would've just needed a little more time if Regina hadn't been there;  the flashback and how quickly she fell again were pretty much proof that Zelena wanted to believe him.
• Robin was--because of Zelena's choices--the father of Pistachio.  Hades was aware of that.

Therefore, Emma's not responsible, even remotely, for Robin, Regina, Zelena, and Pistachio being on Hades radar.  He knew about them.  He had plans for at least 2--possibly 3--of them. 

• Regina and Robin went after Pistachio on their own.
• Without a plan.
• Without backup.

Again--their choices.  Not Emma's.  I don't understand the logic that says, "Hook was traded with Robin."  Um . . . No.  Not in the same hemisphere as what happened.  Emma being in the same realm and/or city as people making choices does not make her responsible for the choices they made while there!

 

One of the things I hate the most about the writing on this show, is that the actual people responsible are almost never held accountable, and the story is so often framed to make the "heroes" at fault.

[TheGreenKnight]

I don't think Emma is directly responsible, but she is tangentially responsible because she tried to change fate and bring back the dead. Regina seemed to encourage Zelena's romance with Hades because if that could possibly turn Hades "good," that would be easier than trying to fight him (since at that point they didn't even believe they could fight him). Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if Regina or Emma unfairly blame Emma for what went down just because emotions are irrational.

[InsertWordHere]

6 minutes ago, Mari said:

Emma being in the same realm and/or city as people making choices does not make her responsible for the choices they made while there!

Great post! And Regina would have died if Hook hadn't gotten those pages to Emma, who in turn got them to Zelena in the nick of time. So really Hook and Arthur saved Regina from the Underworld while Emma and Zelena saved her in Storybrooke. If not for the disastrous consequence of Robin's death, this actually sounds like a great story about people working together despite their differences. 

[Mari]

Except the changing fate thing had nothing to do with Robin dying.  

 

And, if anyone changed Robin's fate, and changing fate is what leads to death, then Robin was already dead when they didn't let him die in Camelot or in Storybrooke when the Fury was after him.

 

Again, if Emma being somewhere is what (tangentially or otherwise) leads to peoples' deaths or ends, she is also responsible for Gaston, Milah, Graham, Neal, Cora, Pan, Tamara, Greg . . .

 

I expect Emma to be blamed and/or guilty for Hook being alive and Robin being dead.  However, that is the twisted morality that I am ranting about.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Mari
I felt like it.

[TheGreenKnight]

I guess it comes down to whether you think Hades would've got out of the Underworld without Emma and co. going down there. I doubt he would have without some way to bring Zelena to him. He had to use Gold to do that.

[InsertWordHere]

2 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

He had to use Gold to do that.

And Gold could only enter the Underworld because Neal had brought him back to life. Doesn't make it Neal's fault that Robin died, either.

[Mari]

6 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I guess it comes down to whether you think Hades would've got out of the Underworld without Emma and co. going down there. I doubt he would have without some way to bring Zelena to him. He had to use Gold to do that.

No, it doesn't, really.

 

Hades was already able to sort of leave the Underworld.  He did it when he met Zelena in the flashback.  To leave permanently, all he needed was for her to kiss him, and that would've worked without them going (see the flashback.)

 

Waiting for the portal was about tricking Zelena, not ability.  Rumple was convenient and gave Hades pleasure, but was unnecessary.

[TheGreenKnight]

Emma is the one that blackmailed Gold into taking her to the Underworld, not Neal.

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I guess it comes down to whether you think Hades would've got out of the Underworld without Emma and co. going down there. I doubt he would have without some way to bring Zelena to him. He had to use Gold to do that.

That was my whole problem with the Zelena thing. He made Underbrooke for Zelena, but Zelena was never going to go to the Underworld unless she died, and we know he couldn't take anyone to the UW if they were alive. So his plans still stood anyway because we saw in 5x18 that a dead person can bottle a TLK or a kiss or whatever, so a dead person can TLK someone.

Hades was going to come out of the Underworld regardless, it just took him less time to do it because Zelena arrived there a lot sooner because of the portal.

[Curio]

What was stopping Hades from visiting Rumple in Storybrooke, the same way he visited Liam, and offering him a deal to destroy the baby contract? In return, Gold would use his blood to open a portal to The Underworld and shove Zelena down under.

[profdanglais]

I do think Emma bears some responsibility for the Marian situation. Not that she could have had any way of knowing that Regina would suffer, but she shouldn't have brought Marian back, or even let her out of the cell. Hook warned her half a dozen times about altering timelines, and she didn't listen. So the fallout from that wilfulness is at least partly her fault. But the situation with Robin's death is entirely different. Emma didn't force anyone to come to the Underworld with her, it was entirely their choice to do so. She has no control over Hades' actions and didn't make Regina and Robin's decision to go to confront Hades in the mayor's office. She didn't make Robin jump in front of the crystal. She didn't make Zeus send Hook back to her. It's understandable that a grieving person would feel some resentment that her boyfriend is dead dead dead while someone else's gets brought back to life, but that doesn't make any of this Emma's fault. 

[Rumsy4]

37 minutes ago, Mari said:

One of the things I hate the most about the writing on this show, is that the actual people responsible are almost never held accountable, and the story is so often framed to make the "heroes" at fault.

That's all it boils down to really. The writers are interested in creating conflict, and they lack the creativity to do it in new ways. So, they recycle the same old boring plot points.

24 minutes ago, Mari said:

And, if anyone changed Robin's fate, and changing fate is what leads to death, then Robin was already dead when they didn't let him die in Camelot or in Storybrooke when the Fury was after him.

Exactly. I still don't see how Snow et al holding hands with Regina paid the price for Robin's soul. Plus the whole author nonsense was becasue Regina wanted to force someone to write her a Happy Ending. 

9 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Emma is the one that blackmailed Gold into taking her to the Underworld, not Neal.

And she only did it because he was responsible for the whole mess. He came back to Storybrooke when his heart was almost black as coal, and released the Darkness into Storybrooke. Emma chose to take on the Darkness to save everyone including Regina. Hook died in the process, and Emma had to kill him herself. And after everything, Gold rendered Emma's and Hook's sacrifices meaningless by taking back the Darkness into himself. Basically, he used Emma and Hook as a receptacle for his Darkness until his heart was cleaned and ready to take it back. So, there is plenty of blame to go around. 

[InsertWordHere]

Perhaps Hades was planning on having Nimue take Zelena to the Underworld but Nimue made a deal with her instead. Do we know for sure that Hades wasn't in on Nimue's plan to trade the living souls for the Dark Ones? 

[Mathius]

Quote

I do think Emma bears some responsibility for the Marian situation. Not that she could have had any way of knowing that Regina would suffer, but she shouldn't have brought Marian back, or even let her out of the cell. Hook warned her half a dozen times about altering timelines, and she didn't listen.

See, here's the thing: Emma did NOT alter the timeline.  The entire reason she knocked Marian out and brought her back with them was to avoid altering the timeline.  Nothing was changed in the past by what Emma did.  The future was changed, but the future is always changing, and let's be honest: Zelena was alive so she would have found some other way to get back even if she hadn't killed and replaced Marian.

[profdanglais]

But Emma set all that in motion by springing Marian from jail in the first place. Once she'd done that, she really had no choice but to take her along to the future. The past may not have changed, but bringing someone who's supposed to have been dead thirty years into the future is going to affect stuff. Emma should have left Marian where she was. That doesn't mean she's to blame for Zelena's actions or Regina's reaction, or any of those things, but after everything she and Hook went through to fix the things they altered, did she really think there wouldn't be any consequences to messing about with people in the past?

[Scovies]

14 minutes ago, profdanglais said:

But Emma set all that in motion by springing Marian from jail in the first place. Once she'd done that, she really had no choice but to take her along to the future. The past may not have changed, but bringing someone who's supposed to have been dead thirty years into the future is going to affect stuff. Emma should have left Marian where she was. That doesn't mean she's to blame for Zelena's actions or Regina's reaction, or any of those things, but after everything she and Hook went through to fix the things they altered, did she really think there wouldn't be any consequences to messing about with people in the past?

The "consequences" involved saving someone's life while at the same time not altering the past timeline. I mean, her options at that point were 1) not rescue Marian in the first place and allow her to be executed, 2) rescue Marian from the cell but leave her in the past where she could potentially screw everything up, or 3) bringing her to the future. Option 1 is utterly heartless. Option 2 would be incredibly stupid. Option 3 really was the best course of action.

You can go even further back, because if Regina had listened to Tink the first time (after Tink went way out on a limb to help her) and introduced herself to Robin, she could have met her True Love before Robin/Marian ever happened and not gone all Evil Queen on everyone. We can play this game until the end of time.

My only hope is that if Regina does blame Emma, Emma is allowed to verbally defend herself. I'm sick of the writers letting her be Regina's punching bag.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Scovies

[YaddaYadda]

If Emma hadn't rescued Marian, Robin would have flipped out a portrait of his wife that he carries around, and shown it to her, and she would have been like, oh, I know her, she was in the cell next to me in the past, and was executed by Regina after I escaped.

OQ blow up over it.

Maybe that would have been better than what we got in season 4.

[profdanglais]

Heartless, schmartless. Marian was already dead. You can't get sentimental about historic dead people, there are way too many of them. Emma's actions may have been compassionate but they were also shortsighted. All Hook's arguments about how Marian could affect things apply equally to the present/future as to the past. Let's imagine that she wasn't Marian or Zelena at all, but just some random woman who goes to the future and meets a man she would never have met otherwise and they have a child who becomes a worse Dark One than Rumple. Or she rides a horse into one of the dwarves, just in the future. She's still somewhere she wasn't meant to be, so everything she does when she's supposed to be dead has consequences that shouldn't have occurred. Emma should have learned her lesson about messing with that stuff after her experiences with her parents, but she didn't and TBH as much as I like Emma I've always found that exasperating. 

[Rumsy4]

No one can predict all the consequences of their actions. That's like saying better to do nothing becasue you may set off a chain of events in the future if a 100 other things line up. This whole show has been about having hope and faith in love, and when Emma finally does something out of hope, she gets blasted for it. At least as the Dark One, she went against Hook's express wishes to save him, This time, she tried to do it the right way. As for Marian, would it have been better for Robin to be with the woman who had killed his wife in the original timeline? Who knows... 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Mabinogia]

48 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's like saying better to do nothing becasue you may set off a chain of events in the future if a 100 other things line up.

When travelling back in time doing nothing is exactly what you should be for exactly that reason. Saving Marion could have had far worse results than they did. And really, all it got Marion was a little more time, being murdered by the sister of her original murderer and getting her heart broken knowing her husband moved on.

The thing is, you don't know what you are going to change. Regina might have been so pissed at losing Marion that she went and killed someone else in her place. Is Emma going to go back and save that person too? You have to draw a line.  Emma has undeaded two people now, Marion and Hook and both times lead to a lot of pain for a lot of people. She should feel guilt. That is different than saying she is to blame for all that happened, she's not. She may have been the catalyst but she isn't to blame, but she should feel guilty for thinking of herself. Her actions caused a lot of people a lot of pain. At least with Hook she actually changed something. Marion ended up dead quickly anyway.

A good example of doing screw with the past: If Robin and Regina hooked up back when Tink suggested it could have stopped Regina from her bitter vengeance which would mean no dark curse which would mean no sending Emma away, which would mean she doesn't meet Neal doesn't get knocked up and Henry is not born. That is why Regina said, back when Pan had them tied to that tree, that she didn't regret what she did. If she hadn't enacted the curse Henry wouldn't exist and she can't imagine a world without Henry, no matter what the cost. Quite like Emma couldn't imagine a world without her boyfriend so she brought him back, no matter what the cost. She's just lucky the writers haven't stumbled upon the general concept of "a life for a life". I wish they had because it is a fascinating thing to explore. Would she still save Hook if she knew it would mean some random person would die in his place? That's when you get moral dilemma. If she knew someone else would end up in Marion's cell if she saved her, would she then have left Marion behind?

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Emma has undeaded two people now, Marion and Hook and both times lead to a lot of pain for a lot of people. She should feel guilt. That is different than saying she is to blame for all that happened, she's not. She may have been the catalyst but she isn't to blame, but she should feel guilty for thinking of herself. Her actions caused a lot of people a lot of pain.

Kind of like how Regina casting the Dark Curse caused a lot of people a lot of pain?

I don't know if it's the writers' intention or not, but I think it's fascinating that Emma's actions and Regina's actions tend to always be opposites. Regina created a Dark Curse with the intention to cause people pain, and in doing so she made Emma's life miserable, but karma hit back and now Regina has lost her soulmate forever. Meanwhile, Emma helped save Marian and Hook with no intention of causing people pain, and in doing so she made Regina's life miserable, but karma hit back and now Emma has her True Love back in her life. For every life Emma saves, she somehow makes Regina's life miserable, and I think that's ultimately Regina's own karma coming back to haunt her because of all the lives she's killed. Emma just happens to be the main vessel in which the universe/karma is striking back at Regina. I guess that's what you get when you plot to kill Emma as a baby, only for that baby to grow into an adult and make your life a living hell.

[Rumsy4]

40 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

She should feel guilt. That is different than saying she is to blame for all that happened, she's not. She may have been the catalyst but she isn't to blame, but she should feel guilty for thinking of herself.

I don't get why someone should feel guilt if they are not to blame. Emma did feel bad about the pain she caused Regina by bringing Marian back. She took responsibility for what she did, and spent the whole season wallowing in guilt over it, and got on Operation Stupid so bring Regina's HE back. That's more than Regina has ever done for Snow or anyone else she's intentionally hurt. That's why I really liked the fact that Regina willingly came on the SaveHook mission with Emma, and even when Emma asked her to go leave she did not. She is a big person and is responsible for her actions. Why should Emma feel guilty for thinking of herself when she didn't force Regina to come along? Besides, Hook is a person in his own right, who was wronged by Rumple. Emma was thinking of the question of justice for Hook when she decided to get him back. 

Quote

She's just lucky the writers haven't stumbled upon the general concept of "a life for a life".

She was ready to split her heart with Hook to get by the life-for-a-life rule, which was pretty much laid out as a rule in the Show in order to bring someone back from the dead. That's why Neal died. Emma's parents got past the rule by sharing their heart. Regina was ready to trade her life for Robin's in 5.02. But holding hands with friends apparently paid the price for Robin's Soul. So, Emma hasn't done anything unique in trying to save a significant someone from death.

The one person responsible for Robin's death is Hades. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

On the saving Marian dilemma, had Emma not brought "Marian" back with her, Zelena would have taken over a different body still stuck in the past and completely fucked up everything. In reality, Emma saving Marian from the cell not only stopped Regina from murdering Robin's wife (definitely a good thing for Regina), but she also kept the timeline intact by removing Zelena from the past so she couldn't change things - like Emma not being the Saviour and not getting sent off in the tree such that Henry wouldn't have been born (also a positive for Regina). 

[profdanglais]

Oh, I'm not saying that Emma is responsible for causing Regina pain. Regina is the only one who can control her reactions to things and also it was her fault Marian was in the cell to begin with. I'm saying, as Mabigonia did above, that it's a bad idea to mess with the past. It's one thing to make a decision in the present that has unintended consequences. We all do that, and we can't feel guilty about every bad thing that happens because we made a decision for ourselves that appeared harmless at the time. However, Emma knew from experience the effects that even a small change to the past could make, and she interfered anyway. It was a kind, generous impulse but it was also foolish. It's possible for things to be both good and bad. I personally feel that she should have been more pragmatic and less compassionate, but others clearly disagree :). 

[Mabinogia]

I think it is natural to feel guilty about something you did that ended up causing someone else pain, even if that wasn't your intention. I would feel guilty if someone came on a road trip with me and ended up getting killed. I wouldn't think I was guilty of killing them, but I'd feel partially responsible because they wouldn't have been there if not for me. I don't mean she should thrown herself in a fire to atone, she has nothing to atone for. That is different than guilt. Guilt is a natural, non-sociopatic reaction to seeing other people hurt because of something you did. Like it or not, Emma did some fucking stupid shit that caused a lot of people to do fucking stupid shit on her behalf and got a lot of people hurt/killed/thrown into obvilion river. That in no way makes her bad but she's not perfect, thank god.

What is Emma's biggest strength, her drive to help others, is also her biggest weakness. She is lucky because she's the heroine so she will always end up triumphing. In real life she'd probably have gotten herself killed by now. lol I like Emma, but part of what I like about her is that she makes some terrible, terrible choices and that she feels bad when those choices go wrong. It makes her human for me.

[Mathius]

I agree that leaving Marian to die would have been pragmatic and Emma probably would have done so if seeing her get dragged off to her imprisonment was all that happened.  But Emma shared a cell across from her, they talked for a while and Emma connected with her on a basic human level.  She wasn't just a dead historical figure to her now, she was a living, breathing human being, and the natural response for her is to want to save her when she has the chance to.  I cannot fault her for that, since I would have made the exact same choice.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Mathius

[Mabinogia]

I don't fault her for it. But it was a stupid, short sited thing to do. I would have done the same thing, but then, I'm a lot like Emma in that I am lead by my heart frequently and jump into things without really thinking them through. I think that's why I like that part of her. Because I see it in myself.  That's what makes it, for me, so interesting.  She saved a life, but she altered history. History corrected itself by having Marion die soon anyway, but it could have been much, much worse.  Changing the course of history when you don't even know who it is your saving, is a very, very dangerous game.

[Scovies]

34 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I don't fault her for it. But it was a stupid, short sited thing to do. I would have done the same thing, but then, I'm a lot like Emma in that I am lead by my heart frequently and jump into things without really thinking them through. I think that's why I like that part of her. Because I see it in myself.  That's what makes it, for me, so interesting.  She saved a life, but she altered history. History corrected itself by having Marion die soon anyway, but it could have been much, much worse.  Changing the course of history when you don't even know who it is your saving, is a very, very dangerous game.

She didn't alter history by bringing Marian back, though. She preserved history but changed the present.

And I'm absolutely with you on the "I'd have done the same thing" bandwagon. It was the moral thing to do; she had the chance to save a life and she did. If she hadn't, she wouldn't be the same Emma that I know and love.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Scovies

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

She didn't alter history by bringing Marian back, though. She preserved history but changed the present.

She could have though, knowing what she knew. (From the butterfly effect.) I know it's unpopular opinion, but I really don't think saving Marian was the smartest thing.

Quote

Changing the course of history when you don't even know who it is your saving, is a very, very dangerous game.

This. I believe Emma's heart was in the right place. I really do. But the fact Marian was scheduled to be executed doesn't make the timeline unchangeable. Changing history is changing history, no matter how small.

Edited May 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

2 hours ago, Mathius said:

But Emma shared a cell across from her, they talked for a while and Emma connected with her on a basic human level. She wasn't just a dead historical figure to her now, she was a living, breathing human being, and the natural response for her is to want to save her when she has the chance to.

Don't forget Marian was on Team Snow. What was Emma supposed to say? "Wow, thanks for standing up to The Evil Queen by not telling her the location of my mother! You risked your safety just to ensure my mom could survive, which also means you saved my life indirectly. But I'm ditching you here in this cell because it's the pragmatic thing to do and I have a timeline to protect. So...I'm just going to go ahead and escape right in front of you once I'm done twisting these tumblers in this lock and have a nice execution!"

[Scovies]

52 minutes ago, Curio said:

Don't forget Marian was on Team Snow. What was Emma supposed to say? "Wow, thanks for standing up to The Evil Queen by not telling her the location of my mother! You risked your safety just to ensure my mom could survive, which also means you saved my life indirectly. But I'm ditching you here in this cell because it's the pragmatic thing to do and I have a timeline to protect. So...I'm just going to go ahead and escape right in front of you once I'm done twisting these tumblers in this lock and have a nice execution!"

Yeah, that's my big thing there. Emma had a living, breathing woman right in front of her who was unjustly imprisoned and scheduled for execution. If she hadn't tried to save her she wouldn't be the Emma that I love so much. And I think a large chunk of people would have made the same decision because it's the right one. If the counter-argument is, "Emma interrupted Regina's relationship with Robin because she saved Robin's wife, whom Regina executed," I have no sympathy. None. She righted one of Regina's past evils and I'm still pissed that Regina got to rake Emma over the coals for it.

[profdanglais]

What if Regina had decided in the night to spare Marian, then came to her cell the next morning to find her gone, and in her rage killed 100 people? Is saving Marian still the right thing to do? Is the life of one person in front of you more valuable than 100 strangers, merely because it's in front of you? These are considerations that don't need to be made when you make decisions in the present, because the future is yet undetermined. But when interacting in the past, things are different. Marian had already died, and things had happened as a result of that. Emma had no way of knowing what consequences saving her would have. If she decides to save her anyway, that's fine (and I agree, totally in character for Emma) but then she bears responsibility for what happens as a result. 

I'm flashing my nerd credentials here, but you know the Original Series Star Trek? There is one episode where Kirk and Spock go back in time to the 1930s, Kirk meets a woman, because of course, but this woman is a social crusader. Kirk falls in love with her, but Spock discovers that she's set to die in an accident in the next few days, and that her death is necessary because if she lives her social crusading will result in the Nazis winning WWII.  Kirk has to stand by as the woman he loves dies, when he could easily save her. Normally, saving her would have been the right thing to do, even if Kirk's feelings hadn't been involved, but because it was time travel, bigger issues were at stake. Kirk was able to recognise that she had to die so that more people could live. Yes, it would have seemed terribly callous to run off and leave Marian in that cell, but when you've travelled to the past there's always a chance that callousness to one person will save the lives of 100. Remove the time travel from the equation and of course Emma should save Marian and anyone else she can. But in that particular case it was not the right decision and I don't think we can say with certainty that it would be "the right thing to do."

Fortunately, most of us don't do enough going back in time to have to face this dilemma ourselves :)

[daxx]

^^^ city on the edge of forever.  Harlan Ellison writer. My favorite episode. Sigh...

[OnceUponAJen]

I remember that Trek episode too! It's been a while. It is similar to a prime directive situation.

I see your point, but Emma as savior I don't think could help herself. I would have done the same if it were in my power, although I don't think I'll ever have to worry about time traveling to the past. Of course now that I've said that, it will probably happen. :)  if faced with the same dilemma, I don't think I could leave someone helpless there and live with myself afterwards.

Edited May 10, 2016 by OnceUponAJen

[kili]

Quote

What if Regina had decided in the night to spare Marian, then came to her cell the next morning to find her gone, and in her rage killed 100 people? Is saving Marian still the right thing to do? Is the life of one person in front of you more valuable than 100 strangers, merely because it's in front of you?

What if Regina had decided in the night to still kill Marian, came down to kill her, found her missing, got so angry she issued a power pulse and the dungeon collapsed on her head  killer her while saving the lives of 1 million people?  There are a gazillion possibilities.

Hook and Emma didn't want to disrupt the past because it made their future less likely to have occurred. It could be worse, it could be better. They had no clue. They just didn't want it to change. Changing it meant Henry may not exist. And unstable time loop which just makes people's heads hurt.

Let's be honest here...the chances of Regina changing her mind about killing Marian were approaching zero. Regina killed a guy for having the audacity to get married on Daniel's death day. She killed a jester for trying to cheer her up. She killed people just because. No way is that woman going to suddenly take pity on somebody who is keeping her from killing her nemesis.

The only slight chance Marian had to survive was because Regina was happy that she got to kill Snow. Since Snow did not die (or appear to have been executed) in the initial timeline, Emma springing Marian from the prison and bringing her to the future probably did more to preserve the timeline. If Regina had let Marian go in the already altered timeline, she would have further altered it.

[Mari]

Since two-way time travel is still only theoretical, we have to go with scientific theories and fiction.  There's also fiction that treats time as pretty resilient.  That, yes, big changes might cause a ripple or two--interfering with a destined couple and stopping them from meeting--but, that overall, time tends to repair itself with minimal disruption.  Since the show goes with pixie dust soul mates, prophecies, etc, time is apparently fairly tamper resistant.    In a world where only big changes matter, as long as the person who was supposed to die disappears, and no longer is there to be a disruption, the timeline would most likely grow into the shape it was going to before.  After all, look how much of Snow and David's relationship stayed basically the same, after the big event was sort of fixed.

And, really, the moral issue is that the show used it to frame the murderer as the victim, again.

Which is really horrifying.  Someone stopping you from killing the wife of a guy you've dated a couple of times does not make you a victim--but that's what we were supposed to think.  

Edited May 11, 2016 by Mari
Random capital letters should not appear in the middle of sentences.

[KingOfHearts]

The writers love to say, "There is no black and white". So what do they do? They split Regina into Black and White. Good going, writers.

Edited May 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

Consistently on this show, rape-y situations are thrown under the rug. Everyone forgot about Regina defiling Graham. Robin died and Zelena took the baby. Guinevere's sanded-ness was left up in the air with no real conclusion. There seems to be an ongoing pattern here. If the writers don't want to touch it because it's family hour, then maybe they shouldn't have introduced those situations in the first place

Edited May 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Consistently on this show, rape-y situations are thrown under the rug. Everyone forgot about Regina defiling Graham. Robin died and Zelena took the baby. Guinevere's sanded-ness was left up in the air with no real conclusion. There seems to be an ongoing pattern here. If the writers don't want to touch it because it's family hour, then maybe they shouldn't have introduced those situations in the first place

This yes. Especially the last part. They didn't have to introduce any of it.

[Camera One]

Remember we were thinking about what walking into the Light actually meant?  Especially when it came to someone as despicable as Cora?  Was it just dealing with her "unfinished business"?  Or was it actually redemption?

Quote

Kitsis: So if we saw someone who is as awful as Cora can redeem herself and move on

So apparently, Cora "redeemed herself".  Simply by apologizing to her two daughters.  What about the entire freak'in village she killed?  The murder of Snow's mother?  She has shown zero remorse for any of that, but she redeemed herself?  I can't even...

Edited July 27, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

So apparently, Cora "redeemed herself".  Simply by apologizing to her two daughters.  What about the entire freak'in village she killed?  The murder of Snow's mother?  She has shown zero remorse for any of that, but she redeemed herself?  I can't even...

#ItHappenedOffscreen

Edited July 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

So apparently, Cora "redeemed herself".  Simply by apologizing to her two daughters.  What about the entire freak'in village she killed?  The murder of Snow's mother?  She has shown zero remorse for any of that, but she redeemed herself?  I can't even...

And Robin got his soul obliterated. He just stopped existing altogether. The River of Souls feels like a much better fate. I also don't care for what a&E said about Hades and how he's a liar who lies.

Edited July 27, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I also don't care for what a&E said about Hades and how he's a liar who lies.

Makes about as much sense as:

A&E: "Hades always lies!"
Hades: "This is a lie."
 

[Mari]

53 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Me too. They finally learn of a way to get rid of the Dark One forever.  But everyone is 'oh no you can't murder Zelena'. Really? Not one wonders if maybe its worth it to get rid of the Dark One forever? They don't even want to discuss it? Wonder what life would be like without the Dark One? 

This is one of those things that should have caused more conflict than it did.

Personally, I see sacrificing Zelena as a wrong thing.  However, there is an argument to be made for that Star Trek quote about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the one.

In a show with more emotional realism, there would have been at least a reasonable token argument about whether or not it was the right thing for the community at large--if the evil of killing Zelena in cold blood outweighed what would be accomplished by her death.  

Maybe reasonably Hook being on that side, although he'd probably see it as dark gray enough he wouldn't want Emma to do it.  I can easily see Regina coming to the conclusion that killing Zelena would be the right thing to do, as well as at least one of the dwarves.  (LeRoy, perhaps?  Or is that just me?)

 

(Although, I must point out that they had a period of time without the Dark One.  All Neal had to do was not kill himself to bring Rumple back.)

[KingOfHearts]

Emma drugged Zelena, forcibly separated a mother from her baby, didn't consult anyone, and tied her up in a basement. The rationalization wasn't "needs of the many", but rather that killing her would be the least inconvenient for everyone. It was just handled so underhandedly. If it was about executing a dangerous villain (two birds, one stone), why the heck are people like Regina allowed to roam free? Yeah, I don't really think killing Zelena in that manner was the right thing to do. If someone absolutely needed to die, either someone needed to sacrifice themselves or a criminal needed to be executed with due process.

At the very least, Emma should have talked with her family, Regina, and Robin first. 

Edited July 31, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I suppose most people feel Regina should have been executed, so in that same vein, Emma's plan to kill Zelena wasn't that far off from the same medieval justice.  

In this warped world of morality where Regina is allowed to roam free, Emma WAS reprimanded for her plan to kill Zelena and the message was that it was wrong.  

But I can see Emma's reasoning, since there was a bigger "needs of the many" at play, as Nimue and Co. had dastardly plans if the Dark One had lived on (either in Hook or Emma).  I can see why Emma fell upon Zelena, as her actions led to Merlin's death and she helped to have Arthur potentially execute several innocent people, and that's not even taking into account that she murdered Marian in cold blood (and a Munchkin and an Emerald City Guard, though these two were unknown).  

Now I suppose "the universe" rewarded the heroes for not killing Zelena, because she played a role in enabling them to escape the Underworld.  Just like if they had let Regina die at the end of the Season 2 finale, they might never have rescued Henry from Neverland.  

Speaking of morality, I would also have been okay with the "heroes", if they had just dumped the dying Rumple off on the other side of the town line at the end of Season 4, and the Dark blob could just disappear into the ether in the World Without Magic.  

The more "grey" the show tries to be, the more I want to pick up a pitchfork, draw a line in the sand and join the black-and-white peasant army because I am just so sick of these villains ruining everyone's lives.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Camera One