The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, RadioGirl27 said:

And then delete everything. He is just pathetic. 

Everything "Once" related from yesterday was deleted.  It never happened, folks.  We fell into a rabbit hole and went into an AU.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Souris]

36 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Everything "Once" related from yesterday was deleted.  It never happened, folks.  We fell into a rabbit hole and went into an AU.

Does this mean we can kill people and suffer no repercussions, and then bring back alt-people to our reality?

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Everything "Once" related from yesterday was deleted.  It never happened, folks.  We fell into a rabbit hole and went into an AU.

Oh my gosh! We all drank memory tea!

[InsertWordHere]

On 6/12/2017 at 3:59 AM, KAOS Agent said:

On a separate topic, I saw someone asked Colin a question about how he gets embarrassed discussing kissing scenes with fans and it led to him talking about how the writers describe each Captain Swan kiss as "epic" and how he and Jen have difficulty making every damn kiss "epic". It's that kind of thing that makes these writers look foolish. Not every kiss is epic. Not every kiss should be.

I wish CS had like ten fewer kisses and just one more domestic scene. 

[Kktjones]

7 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I wish CS had like ten fewer kisses and just one more domestic scene. 

I would trade all their kisses this season (okay, maybe not the pancakes scene, but all the other ones) for one really meaty conversation. I think the writers really failed them in Season 6, relying on their past connection, but not further developing their relationship. A&E scripts especially were all about the hugs & kisses, the reunions, the "epic" moments. I think given the huge milestones they were hitting in S6 they should have kissed less and talked more. I wanted to see them work through Hook's self-loathing and Emma's fear of dying. I would have also loved to hear them articulate what they love about each other. We've heard Hook call Emma amazing and encourage her, but what does she love and admire about him? Even their wedding vows weren't about what they loved about the other person, but more about how the other person helped them change. I think I've mentioned before that they went the entire season without exchanging "I love yous" (the shell phone doesn't count b/c Hook couldn't hear Emma). In a season where they moved in together, were separated  by realms numerous times, had two proposals and a wedding, that's kind of mind blowing. Anyway, this is my really long way of saying - I agree. Less kisses, more substance :). 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Kktjones

[daxx]

Adam gets lots of positive reinforcement on twitter for kisses, I truly think he loves the twitter feedback so much he writes to it. The conversations don't get the mass oohs and aahs.

[Kktjones]

3 hours ago, daxx said:

I truly think he loves the twitter feedback so much he writes to it

I think this is definitely part of it. He also loves getting credit for writing relationships between strong female characters, which is why most of the scripts he and Eddy write seem to focus on the Emma/Regina relationship to the exclusion all others. However, I also think they are clueless about how important conversations are in giving storylines closure. One great example is 4x11 when Emma shoves Hook's heart back in and then promptly ditches him to do shots with Regina. Here is A&E's response post-ep:

TVLINE | Some thought the Emma/Hook reunion felt a bit rushed, especially for someone carrying such a fear about losing the men she loves. Was that a time issue? That you had other story masters to serve?
KITSIS | [With what we thought was an obvious element of sarcasm, but we will denote it anyway] We would have loved to do 40 minutes of them kissing, but we had a lot to get in.
HOROWITZ | We felt like it was a sweet moment between the two of them, her returning his heart and then the kiss. Could there have been a lot more? Yeah. But there’s still plenty of episodes left in the season.
KITSIS | We thought the kiss and the way she put his heart back said [a lot]…. But the truth is they’re a couple that is continuing, so we’d rather watch them grow together and see what happens.

They didn't even address the question. It was obvious to everyone that they should have talked about the fact Emma was scared of losing another man she loves, but A&E made it all about kissing. Clearly they think an epic kiss takes the place of meaningful conversation. No, we didn't want 40 minutes of kissing, we wanted 1 minute of talking...

[Shanna Marie]

3 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

It was obvious to everyone that they should have talked about the fact Emma was scared of losing another man she loves, but A&E made it all about kissing. Clearly they think an epic kiss takes the place of meaningful conversation.

I've said it before, but they write relationships the way a six-year-old plays with Barbies, and the only way they know how to depict romance is to smush Barbie and Ken's faces together and make kissy sounds. That's also all they ever did for Regina and Robin.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

They didn't even address the question. It was obvious to everyone that they should have talked about the fact Emma was scared of losing another man she loves, but A&E made it all about kissing. Clearly they think an epic kiss takes the place of meaningful conversation. No, we didn't want 40 minutes of kissing, we wanted 1 minute of talking...

That episode was just badly written overall. Too much was being accomplished in a span of 42 minutes. You had to send the Frozen folks home, stop Rumple from killing Hook, break Rumpbelle up, send Robin/Zarian/Roland over the town line, introduce the Queens of Darkness in a series of flashbacks, give Elsa and Anna an epilogue scene, and show the flashforward of Rumple in New York. There was zero time for Emma and Hook in there. Either they should have shipped Frozen off an episode earlier, or just not revealed the QoD at all except for Ursula at the end.

It just occurred to me. Was the finale really all that different from the montage in 4x12? Wasn't everyone happily just going about their daily lives then too? 

Edited June 14, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

There was zero time for Emma and Hook in there.

There was.  If Emma hadn't run off to be with Regina, she could have spent that time with Hook instead.

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, Kktjones said:

HOROWITZ | We felt like it was a sweet moment between the two of them, her returning his heart and then the kiss. Could there have been a lot more? Yeah. But there’s still plenty of episodes left in the season.

In the Season 6 finale, certain character combos had no more episodes left, ever, and they still got shafted, so...

[KingOfHearts]

40 minutes ago, Camera One said:

In the Season 6 finale, certain character combos had no more episodes left, ever, and they still got shafted, so...

It's a good thing Captain Swan had so much focus in 4B!

[Camera One]

Sorry, this show is not just traditional romance.  It's innovative and treasures friendships and families.  4B gave us both of those, telling the tender tale of Emma and Lily (the epitome of friendship) and how a mother who was discriminated against due to her species was separated from her beloved daughter for 28 years (the epitome of family).  It also highlights the people in society who are ignored, giving them a voice.  An example would be Isaac, of course.  

Edited June 15, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Was the finale really all that different from the montage in 4x12? Wasn't everyone happily just going about their daily lives then too? 

The only differences between the finale and the 4x12 montage were that David was farming and Hook was co-sheriffing (or the deputy) in the finale.

But, really, those were also the only differences between season one during the curse and the finale, other than Zelena's presence and the babies. Everyone else is doing exactly what they were doing during the curse and more or less reacting to Regina the same way, but with less fear. We went through six seasons that involved breaking a civilization-altering curse, not to mention numerous deaths and other curses, and yet we're still more or less right where we started.

[Camera One]

In the original Curse, Regina actually already gave Snow White the happy ending she had ALWAYS wanted.  That stepmom always puts everyone first.

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

In the original Curse, Regina actually already gave Snow White the happy ending she had ALWAYS wanted.  That stepmom always puts everyone first.

The worst curse, the curse to end all curses, made Snow White... a schoolteacher in modern day America.

[jhlipton]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The worst curse, the curse to end all curses, made Snow White... a schoolteacher in modern day America.

To be fair, it also gave her an unrequited love for David.  The professions that everyone got under the "curse" weren't too bad (and were a step up in some cases).  Only a few thought anything at all was wrong. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

To be fair, it also gave her an unrequited love for David. 

But is it really that bad if she's completely unaware of it? 

Quote

The professions that everyone got under the "curse" weren't too bad (and were a step up in some cases). 

Very people died, no one got sick, they could only get hurt by Regina's hand, and they didn't age. The Dark Curse is overrated.

Edited June 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Now we know The Dark Curse was ultimately from a desperate mother who created it to save her son by mixing some fairy spells together.  No wonder it was so tame.  But oh so feared in the land.  Now when did the "kill the one you love to cast it" requirement get into the recipe?

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

That episode was just badly written overall. Too much was being accomplished in a span of 42 minutes. You had to send the Frozen folks home, stop Rumple from killing Hook, break Rumpbelle up, send Robin/Zarian/Roland over the town line, introduce the Queens of Darkness in a series of flashbacks, give Elsa and Anna an epilogue scene, and show the flashforward of Rumple in New York. There was zero time for Emma and Hook in there. Either they should have shipped Frozen off an episode earlier, or just not revealed the QoD at all except for Ursula at the end.

It just occurred to me. Was the finale really all that different from the montage in 4x12? Wasn't everyone happily just going about their daily lives then too? 

They really should have waited to the next episode to show Rumple in New York and introduce the QoD then too. They easily could have ended the episode with Frozen crowd going home, Emma and Hook putting his heart back and staying together, and with Rumple kicked out. We didn't need to see what happened to him then. They could have had people wondering through the winter break what was going to happen to Rumple now that he was kicked out. I know they'd never consider dropping it but they didn't need Emma running off to have drinks with Regina. That could have waited to for the next episode too. They could have started the next episode showing time had pass with a depressed Regina and Emma going to Regina's house to check on her since she hadn't left her house too much since Robin left. That would make more sense then Emma shoving Hook's heart back in and racing off for drinks with Regina.

[Camera One]

I forgot for a bit they were called the Queens of Darkness.  More like Queens of Pathetic Losers.  

[KingOfHearts]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

Now when did the "kill the one you love to cast it" requirement get into the recipe?

When Rumple was out of basil.

[jhlipton]

19 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

But is it really that bad if she's completely unaware of it?

True; she only become aware of her love for David as the curse started to weaken.

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

When Rumple was out of basil.

He put basil in the ratatouille????

[Souris]

Bobby had some things to say about the writing on Once at a con today. He ain't wrong. I love that he just gives no fucks.

[andromeda331]

17 hours ago, Souris said:

Bobby had some things to say about the writing on Once at a con today. He ain't wrong. I love that he just gives no fucks.

I like what he said and agree with him.  

[superloislane]

Adam Horowitz just deactivated his account on Twitter! I think he's done this before and was back quickly enough so I assume he'll be back. I'm guessing it was the extreme negative reaction to him and everything about season 7 which made him leave so he figured he'd give it a rest for a bit.

[Camera One]

Yesterday, he was "warning" everyone to subscribe to him on Instagram.  Maybe he wants to make sure that happens.  On Instagram, it's not as easy to spread negative replies since fewer people would read them buried beneath so many other comments.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Camera One

[Souris]

Adam should have deactivated his Twitter a long time ago -- or learned to use it for marketing and not engage in kerfuffles with fans -- but he's just doing it now because he's a coward and doesn't want to face the S7 backlash.

But he'll probably be back. He's done this before.

[Camera One]

He's active on Instagram today.  

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Souris said:

Adam should have deactivated his Twitter a long time ago -- or learned to use it for marketing and not engage in kerfuffles with fans -- but he's just doing it now because he's a coward and doesn't want to face the S7 backlash.

But he'll probably be back. He's done this before.

This exactly. Somehow I doubt he'll last long on Instagram. He thrives on twitter drama.

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, Katherine said:

It's refreshing to hear an honest critique from someone involved in the show. Maybe Adam and Eddy are nice guys, but both seem too proud (or arrogant) to ever admit that they messed up a storyline. Whenever fans criticize them, I get the impression that A & E just dismiss them as crazy shippers who don't understand good writing. And their own belief in the genius of their writing is constantly reinforced by the actors praising them as master storytellers. I love that they're at least getting criticism from someone whom they likely highly respect.

Maybe it isn't the most professional for Robert to complain about his bosses publicly (although I guess this wasn't really intended to be public), but at the same time, the criticism is completely justified. It must be so frustrating for the actors to see the drop in quality of writing over the years. I'm surprised that Eddy was so insistent on Golden Queen that he was willing to upset Robert--in what world was it worth it? That's one storyline where no matter how hard I squint, I cannot see one iota of appeal. I really have no idea what the writers were thinking there.

I actually do think there's a difference between Adam and Eddy. Both come across as a bit arrogant, but I've always gotten the impression that Adam is the more passive one, and that he's also the one more afraid of upsetting fans. Eddy, on the other hand, I think is a little more arrogant, a little more condescending, and a little more insistent that his way is the best way. Maybe I'm completely off base, but I've had this impression for years, so Bobbie saying that it was Eddy he fought with really doesn't surprise me.

Replying to this from the Media Thread.

I too am surprised they pushed through Golden Queen, especially since it did absolutely nothing for the development of Gold, nor Regina/The Evil Queen.  It's not like it caused high drama for Rumbelle since Belle didn't even seem to care.  Regina was completely detached from the relationship, since like with everything else, they kept treating The Evil Queen like she was a separate person.  It did nothing to develop The Evil Queen's character since we already knew she was sleazy.  And it certainly did nothing for Gold's character except make him seem even more callous and even less deserving of Belle's forgiveness.  I mean, the Writers insist this show is "character driven" but this plotline clearly points to the opposite.

[TheGreenKnight]

I wonder if Golden Queen was--like everything else wrong with S6 (Zelena disappearing, Emma and CS taking a backseat, Rumpel eating the show, etc.)--a test run for the reboot to see if maybe they could make a romance out of Regina and Rumpel since Belle was soon to follow Robin out the door and CS would be broken up.

[KAOS Agent]

I think they had no idea where to go with the show in S6, but think that they are just so awesome that they ignore the legitimate criticism from media, fans and actors alike and go with their super cool "wouldn't it be great if" ideas even though they destroy huge swathes of the mythology of the show. We talk about how often they dismiss fan anger about things and clearly aren't even on the same page about why a character reacts in a certain way when responding to the criticism (the varying responses and complete confusion of the writers to the fans' criticism of Wish Realm Emma is a great example of this), but it's now confirmed that they ignore the actors and their concerns about crappy storylines as well. Robert was spot on in his criticism of the whole show and it's refreshing to know that it's not just the fans who understand the dreck we've been watching for the last several seasons. 

No one liked Golden Queen. It was pointless, unfunny and twisted what had previously been portrayed as a more platonic mentor type relationship into a creepy sexual one. I'd love to hear Eddy's actual justification for the storyline in general. If Robert was fighting against it (and rightfully so), why was Eddy so strongly in favor of it? What did they think it added to the story? I'd actually ask this of most of their recent storylines. Writers who want to improve their storytelling should ask this question of every plot they create.

Hook kills David's father ---> What does this mean long term? Nothing? Okay, then why does this even exist? Can we make it have some long term meaning?

Golden Queen is a thing ---> What does this do for the characters on the show? Nothing? Okay, then what is its purpose?

The Land of Untold Stories people are in Storybrooke ---> What does this mean for our main characters? Little to nothing? How can we make them relevant?

Answer these questions and fix your stories. Close off the dropped storylines, create consequences, make the actions relevant. It's not that hard. If you can't make the plot relevant, then don't go there. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Souris]

Unsurprisingly, Adam has reactivated his Twitter account already.

[daxx]

I think he's addicted.

[Souris]

1 hour ago, daxx said:

I think he's addicted.

I really think he is.

[Camera One]

News Bulletin.  Adam just got 345 Likes and 32 Retweets for posting a spool of red thread.  No wonder he keeps coming back.

Now we can go deep and speculate if Adam is referring to the Ancient Chinese myth of the Red String of Fate, in which " the gods tie an invisible red cord around the ankles of those that are destined to meet one another in a certain situation or help each other in a certain way."

Edited June 22, 2017 by Camera One

[sharky]

Holy crap, @Camera One That was a lot of philosophical crap to handle this early in the morning and it's 10am where I am. 

[KingOfHearts]

Nah, it's probably just a reference to Belle's stupid "Follow the strand" dream. Now that's a philosophical masterpiece right there. Move over, Socrates.

Edited June 22, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[orza]

The first thing that comes to mind with red thread is Ariadne. Maybe they are stuck in a labyrinth of sorts and the epic quest is to find a way out. Or Ariadne is Lucy's mother with Henry in the heroic Theseus role.

[tennisgurl]

Adam probably just saw a spool of thread sitting on his dresser as soon as he woke up this morning, and decided to tweet about it.

[Souris]

Emilie also had some criticisms of the writing in her M&G at the Paris con.

Excerpts:

She also said to us that Adam and Eddy had rush the introduction of her pregnancy on the show, that she gave them the time and that she was eagerly waiting to read how they were going to make . But day after day, script after script still nothing and in the end she was very disappointed with it, when she announced her pregnancy to Rumple she was six or seven months pregnant. She was sad not to be able to play with her pregnancy, with the feelings of a real pregnant woman rather than a fake belly.

She didn’t like the fozen/camelot arc at all, it was very boring for her , we all agreed on that . She also said that she didn’t understand why they kept adding other characters to the story rather than focus on the current characters (I was like ?).

She said that six years on the show was enough for her, she wants to stay in Los Angeles with Eric and Vera. These six years in Vancouver was not practical for her, to stay for a few scenes that she had

[jhlipton]

On 6/22/2017 at 5:49 PM, Souris said:

Emilie also had some criticisms of the writing in her M&G at the Paris con.

Good for her!

[Camera One]

At least this is funny...

ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ‏ @teamorrilla  Jun 24

What made you come back? I'm pretty curious

Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA  Jun 24

I said it was temporary

ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ‏ @teamorrilla  Jun 25

I just asked what made you come back, I know it was temporary

Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA

Replying to @teamorrilla

nothing made me come back. It was my choice!

[Shanna Marie]

46 minutes ago, Camera One said:

At least this is funny...

But did he mean it to be funny?

[Camera One]

No, I don't think he did.  He's so defensive it's weird.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina: "Don't tell me what I can or can't do!"

[KingOfHearts]

There's a distinct difference between a gray character and a character that flip flops. A gray character will make independent choices. If they have a moral code, they will abide by it because they believe in it, not because it's simply what everyone else goes by. They don't assign themselves exclusively to a "team". To put it in simplest terms, they don't take satisfaction in either being the hero or the villain. They don't label themselves. Because of this, they are fully capable of making both questionable and admirable choices. Whatever they choose is dependent on their character journey and wherever they are in that moment. Hook and Zelena fit into this category, and that is why they're two of my favorites.

Now, a character that flip flops are both black and white, but at different times. They are not in the middle, but rather they possess a strict dichotomy within the narrative. They may have layers of gray on a basic level, but the author does not frame it that way. There are also characters that are on one side of good or evil the majority of the time. A good character will commit a minor "crime", or a bad character will do something close to human decency, and it's portrayed as them shifting to the complete opposite end of the spectrum for a moment. Snow or Emma can "murder" in self-defense then face corruption of the heart immediately. Regina can take Roland out for ice cream and win the Motherly Figure of the Year award. The writers try so hard to desperately convince us someone has switched to full evil or full good in the blink of an eye. They lobotomize all the surrounding characters to squeeze in their vision. It's almost as if the writers use the characters' mouths as a means to validate themselves. Characters like Regina would be a lot more tolerable and more gray if the other characters were allowed to use their brains.

Yet, at the same time, the concept of "gray characters" only exists in a world that has a strong sense of good and evil. If this show was more realistic, all the characters would be fallible humans capable of all sorts of things, given the proper motivation. They wouldn't act on the account of "inner darkness" or "heroism", but their hearts.

Edited July 5, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Quote

vfernandoperez26‏ @fernandoemmanup  2h2 hours ago
 What happen with ruby?

Adam Horowitz‏
@AdamHorowitzLA
Replying to @fernandoemmanup
Meghan has been unavailable to return.  We had hoped to have her back last season.  And season before.  Maybe down the line!

I have a feeling that A&E love it when actors are unavailable.

Then, someone asked for writing advice for Act 2 of a screenplay and Adam said:

Quote

Act 2s are tough!  Always try to use my protagonist as the guide post -- what does she/he want?  Stay true to the character...

Thanks for the best joke I heard all day.  

Edited July 5, 2017 by Camera One

[RedKeep]

Guess Sean Maguire has no intention to come back again if his response to the third question in this interview is anything to go by - although it's probably worth keeping in mind that it's likely a translation from English to French and back into English. But he's been fairly open in his criticism of the writing for Robin Hood so it doesn't sound too far off from what he's talked about before. And Kitsis/Horowitz being utterly disprespectful in how they speak/think of their audience while pretending RH wasn't brought back because of the backlash caused by their idiotic soul-destroyed-by-magic-mcguffin1001 writing sounds pretty spot on too. Eddy in particular seems like the type of guy who'd hate to see his actors being able to relate to fans like that since he's so dismissive of his audience in interviews all the time.