The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Kktjones]

11 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Honestly, I used to hope that I would get to see my favorite characters and genres pop in this show, but now? I dread seeing them dragged through the mud. 

I totally agree with everything you said above, but this stood out to me especially. I've started to feel the same way about flashbacks/back stories for my favorite characters. I used to get excited when I heard it was an Emma or Hook centric episode, but now I cringe. With Emma it's all about how someone terrible screwed her over in the past (usually someone from the EF). With Hook, it's all about upping the ante on his evil deeds so we can see how far he's come in the present. And for poor Charming it's usually a random person teaching him about having courage. At least his flashbacks don't assassinate his character completely, but they do make him look pretty lame. 

Is it too much to hope that Hook's past with Captain Nemo isn't that he did something awful to him, but maybe that they were friends/colleagues/fellow Captains with a healthy respect for each other? And how about a flashback of Emma that shows how she survived after getting out of prison and put her life back together. I'm not holding my breath, but really hoping the writers can do something even a little bit different this season...

[andromeda331]

52 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

 I'm not holding my breath, but really hoping the writers can do something even a little bit different this season...

I really don't have this hope anymore. I had hope and optimism in the early seasons. Before season five began I had that exact feeling. I wasn't holding my breathe but I was hoping they would do something with Dark Swan. This season, there's really none. Because there's four seasons in a row filled with mess ups, plots that went no where, arcs that built to nothing, repeating of stories, and characters who are never allowed to grow, change, react or really do anything.   Sure, they say this season is going to be different but we've already got a ton of the same and A&E have build up to nothing before just last season Camelot and Merida its hard to believe its going to build to anything this time. the Land of Untold Stories, who knows who's going to show up, yeah, we had that also in the Underworld and we didn't get that either.  Another village destroyed? Who cares no one on the show does. Another person screwed by Regina? We've seen that happen a million times the show doesn't care about Regina's body count. Emma's going to die? That means nothing really, Hook died and we saw the Underworld, and it really isn't a big deal anymore and its rarely for good.  None of this matters. We know Emma and her parents' aren't going to get great family moments, neither will Hook and Emma, we know no one is going to call Regina on her stuff and we'll be continually told how she's a hero and suffering. And we know its only a matter of time before Belle goes back to Rumple, who will continue to be evil when ever he feels like it. It should be exciting guessing who's the next character to be revealed from Land of Untold Stories, but not when there's been so many characters were nothing like the fairytale or literature character.  They might as well just been someone else named Rapunzel or Edmond. Even if they give us a new character to invest in, what's the point? Except for Arthur, none of the Camelot characters mattered to the story or completed, they never even found out they were sand. Aurora and Philip become monkeys? Who cares people were still blowing up monkeys after learning that fact and after the story ended we only saw Aurora once. Ruby? Who cares she disappeared for a couple seasons, only to come back and randomly get parried with Dorothy before disappearing again. One dwarf is still a tree. No one seems to remember that Hook was dead a couple days ago.  What's there to be excited about? New plots that aren't going anywhere, repeats of plots we've had a million times and characters doing the same thing, saying the same thing? Gee, that sounds like fun.

[profdanglais]

All this business with the untold stories and using classic literary characters in a slightly unexpected way (or trying to, in the case of TW), I just keep thinking of how much better that has been done by Jasper Fforde. If you enjoy the idea of putting a twist on characters from classic books, read the Thursday Next series, starting with The Eyre Affair. Similar idea, faaar better execution. 

[sharky]

I'm really starting to wonder if this untold stories nonsense is just to use characters they've wanted to use, buy now that they are running out of steam, are just giving them one offs and moving on.

And yes, there have already been so many interesting and exciting stories that have been tossed in to the trash before they were finished. In a sense, this whole damn show is filled with untold stories.

I was recently listening to an interviee Colin did a few years ago where he's explaining the show -- essentially a fairy tales with a twist show created by two of the writers of Lost. It sounds like a winning show to me and one that I would love to watch! Twisted fairy tales! Lost writers! Sign me up!

Concept is awesome. Pedigree is awesome. Show is sucking. At some point, Lost realized that flashbacks were tired so they did flash forwards and flash sideways. Imagine a season where we compare Emma's struggles as the Savior juxtaposed with her struggles with being a queen. Or see Mayor Regina with Queen Regina.

I think it was here that someone said that Damon Lindelof was an unofficial advisor that first season and I can believe it. Everything has been downhill from there. I mean, holy crap. Two writers from Lost and Jane Espenson and this is the best you can come up with? Then how was the first season so great? Oh yea, you had someone helping you. I really hope that as Channing Dungey settles into her role as head of programming, that she takes more control over this show.

[Camera One]

Quote

 

Two writers from Lost and Jane Espenson and this is the best you can come up with?

They need some new blood since it's like they're all clones from The Temple of Regina by this point, where they chant daily about the trials of Regina and how she is the most tragic character in all human fiction, and where they mesmerize themselves by watching the repetitive wheels of plot spin over and over again in neverending cycles of Rumbelle breakups and makeups.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Camera One

[sharky]

The problem is that attitude comes from the top. It's like A&E are these nerds who finally get to sit at the cool kids table and they have no ideahow to act. The should've been replaced a few seasons ago. Now it's too late and we all will just have to push through.

[YaddaYadda]

The thing is, I think 6x03 is going to prove that, they don't need a bunch of new characters like the count or Captain Nemo to make it work. In 6x03, they're just going back to Cinderella. For me, that's awesome because within the show, aside from what they did with her in season 1, we don't know anything about her. Her step family just helps the story along.

There's Aurora. They brought Aurora and Philip in, but they never told their story. They turned them into monkeys, then they weren't. She had a son, and is trying to adapt to the the lay of the land without the curse download.

What about Blackbeard. He and Hook hate each other. They are rivals. Hook took the JR back and then traded it in for a magic bean to find Emma. Blackbeard told Hook that rumors were, he had gone soft over woman. If Blackbeard shows up in SB and sees this version of Hook, what is he going to think? Does Hook go all pirate in present time SB to show BB that he hasn't gone soft? Blackbeard went to the Land of Untold Stories recently because he heard Hook was there, and ended up in Storybrooke instead.

Maybe the fucking Black Fairy retired in the Land of Untold Stories and finally shows up in town and decides to fuck shit up because she hates the Blue Fairy so damn much. She finds her wand, decides to team up with Rumple because she hates Blue so damn much for what she did to her. They have a common enemy they wanna destroy.

This show is rich with characters already. 

[Camera One]

I definitely agree the show has a wealth of supporting characters that could be explored further, and I would love to see those scenarios play out.  But I don't think the Writers were inherently interested in those characters, or else we would have seen more of their story before now.  They used Cinderella as a throwaway in Season 1 and never even showed the iconic stepmother except in the spinoff.  They brought back Maleficent but didn't even bother to explore Aurora or her mother's backstory.  Blue, Granny, Grumpy et al are all around town but only get a few lines here or there.  When Red or Mulan come back, they get one and dones.  They have zero interest in any of them.  

On quite a few shows I've watched, by the fourth season, they actually branch out and explore the supporting characters more deeply, but this show prefers to parachute in new characters constantly.  The only explanation I can think of is, they just didn't care of those beyond a single episode (whereas Cora for example apparently has endless possibilities and get to come back again and again).  

I suspect the only reason why Archie returned is to back up their claim that S6 is back to the S1 roots.  

[Mathius]

14 hours ago, sharky said:

Then how was the first season so great? Oh yea, you had someone helping you. 

They also had much more time to plan stuff from that season out...a couple of years, in fact.  

After that, the "A" arcs of the following seasons have been more structured since they had more time to plan them out in the break between seasons, while the "B" arcs are more of a mess since they only had the basic concept for them in mind and not anything else.  But even if the structure of the "A" arcs was solid, the actual content of the writing in them has gotten weaker and weaker.  And even if Season 6 in it's entirety is well-structured (which I doubt), it can't make up for the writing content hitting a new low.  Camelot was wasted, the Underworld was wasted, and now all sorts of classic literature is most likely going to waste, leaving us with just a core cast of characters the writers refuse to evolve and have going in circles.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Mathius

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

I definitely agree the show has a wealth of supporting characters that could be explored further, and I would love to see those scenarios play out.  But I don't think the Writers were inherently interested in those characters, or else we would have seen more of their story before now.  They used Cinderella as a throwaway in Season 1 and never even showed the iconic stepmother except in the spinoff.  They brought back Maleficent but didn't even bother to explore Aurora or her mother's backstory.  Blue, Granny, Grumpy et al are all around town but only get a few lines here or there.  When Red or Mulan come back, they get one and dones.  They have zero interest in any of them.  

On quite a few shows I've watched, by the fourth season, they actually branch out and explore the supporting characters more deeply, but this show prefers to parachute in new characters constantly.  The only explanation I can think of is, they just didn't care of those beyond a single episode (whereas Cora for example apparently has endless possibilities and get to come back again and again).  

I suspect the only reason why Archie returned is to back up their claim that S6 is back to the S1 roots.  

This yes! They never branch out or use the stuff they already have. We could have learned more about Cinderella like how is she related to King George since Rumple asked him about the fairy godmother. Blue has said and done a few shading things, why? Is she good? Is she evil? Can they at least update us on what happen to Nova and Abigail. Even a throw away that Abigail's ruling her kingdom married to Frederick? They don't even have to bring them back. Just a line about what happened to them.

 And Maleficent! Maleficent was the biggest waste! Even in the show everyone had a reason to be scared of her because she had a reason to be furious with most of the main characters. Regina captured her and forced her remain in her dragon form for 28 years,  Emma tried to kill her (although it was to get the potion), Charming attacked her (Rumple forced him to hid the potion in her), Rumple used her to hide a potion, Hook, that's before getting to her putting Aurora under a sleeping curse, and turning Philip into an animal, Aurora mentioned she attacked her mother. Maleficent could have and should have been a really big bad. Instead they wasted all of her potential on the stupid eggnapping and wanting to find her daughter.

[andromeda331]

Cinderella's an interesting example in her episode she gets told by Rumple and later Emma that if she doesn't like her life, to change it. So you'd think that was kind of the theme of the show. To learn not to use magic to solve the problems. Cinderella used made her deal and of course it came with a big price. Later when their talking about tricking Rumple Cinderella wonders if they should really use magic and if that's what causing their problems. Snow takes the potion to forget about Charming and it changes her. So the theme of the show used to be magic might not be that cool or people should try to solve their problems themselves. Snow didn't have magic but faced evil stepmother with magic, and of course Regina and Henry's scene when she tries to keep him with magic the same way her mom did to her. For Rumple magic was his crutch. Him becoming the dark one caused his son to be afraid of him and he lost Bae over it. Again it looks like magic is the problem or isn't suppose to be the solution. People who used it never really became happy and instead it helped ruin their lives.   Of course now they changed all of that. Magic is cool and awesome.  I know A&E thinks its so cool and that's people watch the show.

While the magic is cool, that's not what drew me into the show. Watching Emma and Snow forming friendship and fighting and defeating Regina. Emma helping Cinderella and Hansel and Gretel, or Abigail/Kathryn decided to leave Charming. Even watching Regina in season two realizing she was treating Henry the same way her mother treated her and didn't want to do that. Deciding she wanted to be better for her son and trying to do that by trying to quit magic.  Rumple accepting Belle leaving and giving her the library. Wondering what Belle was going to do now that she was finally free for the first time in 28 years.  Rumple finding his son.  I wanted to see what happened after Rumple found his son, Belle being free and dating Rumple, how Snow and Emma's friendship  would change now they knew they were mother and daughter, and adding Charming into the mix.  And the rest of the town now that they remembered who they were what that meant for Regina while she was trying to be better for her son as well as the fall out from 28 years living and doing things they had no control over.  

[Camera One]

Season 1 was sort of misleading since they gave the impression that the show would be like character dramas set in small towns such as "Everwood" or "Gilmore Girls", except with Fairytale characters/mythology.  But really, the community would never be explored, nor the everyday citizens, nor the running of the town.  In the Enchanted Forest, they made it seem like the show would be like epic fantasy series with worldbuilding and clashing kingdoms and rulers.  But really, the intrigue with ruling/succession/alliances would never be explored, nor the nature/origin of different magic forces (eg. Fairies).  Overall, they made it seem like the show would be full of hope with an optimistic world where good can win and justice will prevail.  But really, good people get punished and good deeds backfire, and villains get the sympathy as heroes get shamed, while innocent redshirts keep getting killed off and are treated as insignificant.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

On 10/5/2016 at 5:17 PM, tennisgurl said:

What just kills me about this show, is that is just as so much potential, and, I know I harp about this constantly, but we have endless possible stories and genres and legends and mythologies and books and movies and ALL OF FICTION EVER basically, and they just do...nothing.

That's my big frustration, that not only do they have all these stories to play with and do nothing with them, but they themselves created all these interesting situations and juxtapositions, and they only skim the surface of their own creation. They talk about exploring the gray areas and not being as black-and-white as the fairy tales, but then they make Regina even more evil than Snow White's Evil Queen (who was never shown trying to kill anyone other than Snow) and Snow even more unbelievably good than her movie counterpart (who never became friends with her evil stepmother). They talk about moving from the fairy tale world to our world, where maybe the rules are different and it's a place where villains might be able to get happy endings, but then they keep harping on the same "villains don't get happy endings" trope. They talk about magic always coming with a price, except there's zero price for magic unless you're hiring Rumple to do it for you. Otherwise, anyone with magic powers can do anything at any time unless there's some counterspell or anti-magic object. There's no cost whatsover to using magic. They don't use up their power, they don't get tired, they don't have to eat chocolate immediately. The result is that their cool and daring reinterpretation of fairy tales ends up being more boring than the old tales.

They put the characters through all kinds of hell, experiences that should change them, but they're even less affected than the Westworld "host" robots. Just looking at Hook's death and rebirth alone -- we never had any real emotional impact of his death, just the montage-like scene at his death and later Emma's tearful scene at his grave. It was like the characters had read ahead in the script and knew he was coming back, so they weren't going to get too worked up about it. Henry had already lost his birth father, and then he lost the guy he was shopping for houses with, and we never saw a moment's reaction from him. He wanted to go to the Underworld because he's the Author and he wanted to be a hero, not because he didn't want to lose another Dad figure. Then Hook miraculously comes back to life after they'd given up entirely on saving him and believed him to be dead for good, and the only reaction is David's hug and Regina's "what's he doing here?" If these people don't react to someone whose funeral they must have attended walking into the local diner, then they really are robots. I lost a friend earlier this year, and I still have a mental image of him in the places I expect to see him, then have a pang of disappointment when he's not there. If he were suddenly there? I'd totally freak out. Belle didn't even comment on the fact that he was alive again when she saw him for the first time. If someone died traumatically (multiple times) and came back to life, I'd be worried about his mental and emotional state. Meanwhile, most of the main characters got definitive proof of an afterlife and what sends someone to a good or bad place and what leaves them in a kind of limbo. Wouldn't that change your outlook on life? If you knew that unfinished business would send you to the limbo, wouldn't you live your life to avoid unfinished business? This one plot element alone should have been enough to sustain character drama for an entire season, but if you missed last season and just tuned in, you wouldn't even know that Hook had died or that anyone had gone to the Underworld. How can you write something that major and have absolutely no effect on any character?

And that's not even getting into the barely touched-upon and dropped story lines, like all the Sleeping Beauty gang (how did they save Philip from the Wraith? Apparently it doesn't matter), Will, Pinocchio/August, Robin Hood-in-Name-Only who never got to do any Robin Hood-y things, etc. In the stuff they've already established, they could run for years without bringing in any new characters if they only just dealt with what they already have.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't understand why A&E did not tease Emma and Killian moving in together. They really harped on the anticlimactic ILY, but they didn't share that CS would be going into any new territory. It was very disappointing. It's a pleasant surprise that they are, in fact, taking another step, but do the writers just not think of it as very important? Was that not worth getting shippers excited about? (Yet "ILU without a crisis" was?)

Reminds me of when Emma's house sort of appeared. When the writers were asked before about Emma getting her own place, they would make excuses about budget, etc. But then in 5A it happened and it wasn't anything major to them.

Edited October 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Amerilla]

53 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't understand why A&E did not tease Emma and Killian moving in together. They really harped on the anticlimactic ILY, but they didn't share that CS would be going into any new territory. It was very disappointing. It's a pleasant surprise that they are, in fact, taking another step, but do the writers just not think of it as very important? Was that not worth getting shippers excited about? (Yet "ILU without a crisis" was?)

 

Probably because it has more to do with lining up the plot - give Emma a taste of an ideal future and then threaten to take it away through terminal Savior-itis - then it does with the relationship itself. When that storyline resolves, presumably CS, like every other couple on the show, will rarely be shown in home base again. (Plus, they probably don't see the ILU as anticlimactic.)

Same with Belle: they've spent more time on where she's living in the past two episodes than they did in the previous four seasons. (Even though we know Gold has a very nice house from S1-2, what little "home life" moments we've seen since early S2 have almost invariably been at the shop.) But it has nothing to do with the characters. The evolving plot requires Belle to somewhat isolated, and since they can't do that at the shop, the JR is next somewhat-relevant option.  

[Rumsy4]

Well--the actual moving will happen on Sweeps Week or something. Maybe they'll promote it then. lol

[RadioGirl27]

Almost everything that has happened in the three first episodes of the season has been damage control, and that includes Emma and Hook living together. I'm pretty sure the original idea was to drag the next step in the relationship as long as possible, and the blacklash after the luckluster finale and the lack of payoff for CS made them change the plan. And the same happens with the Savior mythology or Aladdin. Both things are last minute additions. The finale was a terrible mistake on their part, and the fact that no one gave interviews after it proves that someone (A&E? Someone from ABC? Dungey herself?) realized it pretty quickly. A&E miscalculated the interest that the audience had in the EQ and the Land of Untold Stories, that was terribly underdeveloped in the finale. Maybe, if they had spent all the finale in the Land of Untold Stories, showing the characters that were trapped there, instead of all the stupid "Henry wants to destroy magic/SQ road trip part 2/Regina takes once more the easy way out", the audience would have been more interested. 

[KAOS Agent]

I'm still laughing at how they thought hyping Regina and Zelena living together was a good thing. That whole idea amounted to exactly one scene. Why would you even mention this as a storyline in promo for S6? Talk about Zelena being torn between the Evil Queen and Regina. Talk about Zelena's confusion that Regina would remove the thing that connected them because if it's a horrible thing, what does that make Zelena? These writers have little understanding of PR in general, but the idea that one quick plot point in the premiere is something to choose to highlight for the new season just shows how ridiculous it is to even bother to listen to what they have to say.

[Rumsy4]

That was a very odd thing to promote, definitely. It's not like it was something that was talked of in S5 either. 

[Camera One]

From Jane Espenson's twitter:

SciFi4Me Genre News ‏@SciFi4Me   Oct 9
Does every new character have to have a past with the main characters? Can't someone meet them for the first time? #OUAT #OnceUponATime

Jane EspensonVerified account  ‏@JaneEspenson
@SciFi4Me That does happen sometimes, but we find it makes the flashbacks less personal if the characters you love aren't in them.

[Kktjones]

Here's a novel idea - no flashbacks! Why can't we just meet a character in the present, help them in the present and have their story end in the present. I'm sure the writers could find a way to tie the story to one of our characters in a fancy parallel or anti-parallel (in the present). At some point, they need to change up a format that is rapidly growing old.

[KingOfHearts]

The Nimue flashbacks functioned well without the main characters, but Bleeding Through failed spectacularly. It's not a manner of whether the main characters are present or not. The characters just have to be entertaining on their own. (See: Frozen.)

[Camera One]

Despite the declining quality of this show, this week's episode is one reason why I wouldn't mind if the show continued indefinitely.  I actually found the flashbacks with Cinderella and Lady Tremaine more entertaining than any of the present-day stuff or any of the regular main characters.  One way of watching the show is solely as a platform for seeing some well-known stories play out.  I'm sure if we wait until Season 10, they'd be bound to return to the story of Aurora Sr. and what happened between her and Maleficent, if only for a single episode.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I was watching this comedy show about a character whose only purpose is to chew scenery and be obnoxious to an extreme. When played against a straight man, it's funny. But almost every single supporting character praises their idiocy and they never have consequences for their arrogant mistakes. In fact, the characters "learn a lesson" at the end of every episode for coming within a ten-mile radius of daring to question them. This character verbally abuses every person they meet. The moral of the story is to be yourself, even if you're a self-absorbed brat who doesn't let anyone else be themselves. It's grating.

To me, it relates to Once. (Especially with Regina.) Scenery chewing divas are fine in small doses. But if you don't have anything more neutral to play it against, it's exhausting. The other show has one side character that is supposed to be the "straight man", but they are usually portrayed as the bad guy who doesn't let anyone have any fun. In S1 of Once, Emma balanced out Regina (and the rest of the craziness) very well. She had a strong realistic presence. Later she had to lose these qualities to fit in (real life is boring to A&E) and kiss up to Regina. I would find Regina so much more entertaining if someone could fight back with their own snark. But she gets to do whatever she wants, and that's draining.

The Evil Queen, OTOH, is fun to watch because no one is taking her crap. She is treated like the bitch she is.

Edited October 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

25 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

In S1 of Once, Emma balanced out Regina (and the rest of the craziness) very well. She had a strong realistic presence. Later she had to lose these qualities to fit in (real life is boring to A&E) and kiss up to Regina.

Yeah, I was just thinking about the differences between the way season one was written and the show now, and that realism has a lot to do with it. Season one was very cleverly structured, with us getting to really get to know the cursed versions of the fairy tale characters before we learned more about the fairy tale versions. In the first few episodes, the flashback characters were a little closer to the way we know or imagine them from the stories, without much nuance. Meanwhile, the present-day cursed versions were very real and relatable. We may not necessarily identify with the too-perky princess Snow White, but we can relate to the lonely Mary Margaret, getting through her days, with a job she loves but reporting to someone who mistreats her (I'm sure Regina wasn't technically her boss, but Regina as mayor tended to micromanage, so she probably dictated the school along with the town). It also made for a nice metaphor, with the idea that our lives may be ordinary, but maybe there's a hero hidden within us. By the time they started twisting and elaborating upon the familiar tales in the flashbacks, we were relating to the characters. They were real people, not just icons or fairy tale people. That had been one of my fears when I first learned about this series, that we'd get cardboard icons rather than characters, and it was a pleasant surprise that they were handling these icons as though they were real people. They were allowed to be angry, scared, upset. They reacted to things the way we might.

Now they've lost all that. The characters are puppets used to carry out the plot, and who cares whether the thing they're doing is something any real person would do or something that character would do if they have to do it for the plot to work. It's not even just about them all kissing Regina's ass when any normal person would barely tolerate her after what she did to them, even if she did stop tormenting them. They don't react to anything like any normal person would. The tight timeline that has us barely covering four months in two and a half years means that these people have all gone through an incredible amount of trauma in a very short time, and that's not acknowledged. They aren't allowed to act like they've been through much of anything. Yeah, Emma's finally in therapy, but it's about the one thing that really isn't a therapist issue, her potentially prophetic vision, and not about stuff like having a fake set of memories of a life she didn't live, having grown up feeling abandoned, her sort-of reconciliation with her son's father and his subsequent death, having parents who are the same age she is and a younger brother who's younger than her son, watching the man she loves die over and over again and having to kill him, the emotional whiplash of leaving the man she loves behind in the Underworld and having to accept his death, only to have him come back to life.

They've gone from "these aren't just stories, they're real people" to being less realistic and fleshed out than the Disney cartoon versions of the fairy tales.

[Mitch]

I think a very big mistake that they made was to give Emma magic. She should be the normal person in a land full of these people, she should be a fill in for the audience reacting to things as we might.  They could have simply said that she was immune to magic, just like Hyde is...so that would tie the hands of Regina, Rumple and the rest of the villains who would have to use their brains to try to beat her.

I also think that the first season really said magic was bad..there was price to pay and it bit you in the ass over the long term (this would be a good reason for the lack of Blue's interventions in fighting villains...she knows that even white magic can backfire if not used judiciously.)  But now its all like "Magic is great.." and easy...(no one is ever spent after teleporting etc.) and even Henry as the author has a bit of it.  But then, magic in our world, even Storybrooke should be screwy and not work right..for everyone.

[KingOfHearts]

Unless the magic system is well thoughtout (like Harry Potter or something), it shouldn't be the main focus. If Once's magic system had a complex structure with lots of worldbuilding, I wouldn't mind it taking center stage. But there's random ambiguities like whether it's considered bad or not. Plus, the writers break their own rules all the time. On Lost, there was "magic" but it was called the forces of the island or something. The Island was written as its own character. I think magic on Once should have been written similarly, but if it were, it would go OOC all the time.

Edited October 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, Emma's finally in therapy, but it's about the one thing that really isn't a therapist issue, her potentially prophetic vision, and not about stuff like having a fake set of memories of a life she didn't live, having grown up feeling abandoned, her sort-of reconciliation with her son's father and his subsequent death, having parents who are the same age she is and a younger brother who's younger than her son, watching the man she loves die over and over again and having to kill him, the emotional whiplash of leaving the man she loves behind in the Underworld and having to accept his death, only to have him come back to life.

I think you've pinpointed why the therapy sessions have fallen flat for me so far.  It's so plot-oriented, about that vision of her death, which is hard to relate to.  Even Archie's 1 minute scene with Snow to "let it go" in 4A had more of an impression for me, since it was about Snow trying to juggle the baby, and being mayor, and being a hero, and the underlying fear of losing a moment with the baby since she lost so much time with Emma... it was only three lines, but it actually felt more profound and real.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Only A&E can take something as character-driven as therapy sessions and make it plot-oriented.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Mitch said:

I also think that the first season really said magic was bad..there was price to pay and it bit you in the ass over the long term (this would be a good reason for the lack of Blue's interventions in fighting villains...she knows that even white magic can backfire if not used judiciously.)  But now its all like "Magic is great.." and easy...(no one is ever spent after teleporting etc.) and even Henry as the author has a bit of it.

This show came up in a recent convention panel on writing magical systems as an example of what not to do. They talk a lot about how magic always comes with a price, and yet everyone's doing jazz hands and shooting magic all over the place with no price whatsoever. There's no danger of running out of energy. They don't get tired. They don't give up anything. They don't have to use a wand that's specially tuned to them. They don't have to know the right spell to do a particular thing. There's no dangerous effect of using magic. Nothing seems to backfire unless there's a plot reason. There's no social stigma. There's no governing magical body that provides rules about how and when magic can and should be used. That all makes Blue's reluctance to act look shadier than I think they intend. There's no reason for her not to use magic left and right like everyone else unless fairy powers work differently. And since they can do anything with no cost, there's no reason not to do it. Zelena's right -- if you can just teleport, why take a car? But then why did Zelena, who talked about just poofing things, have a bunch of cardboard boxes when she moved instead of just poofing her stuff into Regina's house in the room she was going to take over? If you're going to have magic without limits, then that should really change everything about how those people function, and that's then going to create a big divide between the magical people and the nonmagical people. Given that in season two they still hadn't really seen Emma's powers, so most of the magic users the people in Storybrooke had known were evil, and they'd just been under threat from Cora, you'd think Tamara and Greg might have had a bunch of recruits to their cause. For the ordinary people, magic has done them a lot more harm than good.

[Camera One]

I don't know if the Writers are emotionally tone-deaf or whatever, but they're not good at writing compassion and kindness in terms of the "heroes".  Cinderella saw the Fairy Godmother being murdered, and she's completely unaffected, completely happy, and jokes that Rumple was her Fairy Godfather?  Really?   This is like when the heroes couldn't care less that they were shooting at the Flying Monkeys, aka their Former Friends.  Or when they have Snow talking about starting a school and wanting to live a normal life, the day after her beloved handmaiden Charlotte was found dead.  It's confirmation that this is basically "Once Upon The Villains".

Meanwhile The Evil Queen is a huge threat, yet everyone is walking around as if they are completely safe,  just like they were in the Underworld where Hades could hear and see everything, except when he can't.  

Edited October 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

In 1x04, I freaking loved it when Cinderella was in shock and said, "You killed my Fairy Godmother!" It was just so sudden and introduced Rumple so... him. But in 6x03, it was like, "Who cares about him? I got a poofy dress and mouse chauffeur!" 

[Olivia Y]

I get the feeling that when they're setting up these storylines they don't actually know how they'll turn out or what the 'twist' is supposed to be. They just want some sort of suspense to keep the viewers watching, and then have to scramble for something when it comes time for the reveal.

Thing is, it's been like that since the start of the show. I think the creators had a premise that was interesting (fairy tale characters in the real world) but didn't think through the reasoning behind it or why they were there.

In the very first episode, Snow says (about Regina) "she poisoned an apple because she thought I was prettier than her" which was lifted from the original fairy tale. Then that was completely retconned and all the stuff about Daniel and Cora was written. It's like they only realised after the pilot that they wanted Regina to have some sort of 'reason' behind her grudge against snow beyond being pretty, which just convinces me they hadn't thought out any of the backstories/motivations of the characters prior to pitching the show.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Olivia Y

[Camera One]

Sadly, that is very true.  While I understand that there are always changes between the pilot and the actual show, you'd think the *real* why the Evil Queen hated Snow White, which is pivotal, would have been sketched out.  Even if not, surely there could have been a way to work in that misunderstanding about beauty into the backstory somehow.  

Edited October 16, 2016 by Camera One

[RedKeep]

That Snow line from the Pilot was always odd, considering the writers later claimed "The Stable Boy" was originally meant to be the second episode (which I find *somewhat* believeable, keeping in mind they did drop the first Daniel-backstory hint in 2.02), but they decided to take a gamble and push it back. But then I guess... maybe there's a weird way of acknowledging that the show could have gotten cancelled before they got to the second half of a full-season order in that and then they at least could have claimed there was never supposed to be more to that Snow/Regina feud than the bit they lifted from the original fairytale? If I were them, I would still have addressed Snow's reasons for making that claim about Regina's motivation later on, but well... Horowitz and Kitsis were never all that great at remembering/addressing stuff that happened more than a handful of episodes ago.

Edited October 17, 2016 by RedKeep

[Free]

Quote

I get the feeling that when they're setting up these storylines they don't actually know how they'll turn out or what the 'twist' is supposed to be. They just want some sort of suspense to keep the viewers watching, and then have to scramble for something when it comes time for the reveal.

Agreed, it's why the show is a mess, even the reveals are fairly predictable.

[Shanna Marie]

Basically, this is a plot-driven show written by people who are really bad at plotting. It's also a show full of interesting characters written by people who think character moments are boring. And I guess they are, if you write the same character moments over and over again instead of really delving into the characters and their situations. It is kind of boring to have the "I'm not crazy about Hook" conversation with David, the "I'm done with you, Rumple, this time for sure," conversation with Belle, or the "I trust you" conversation between Regina and Emma for the dozenth time. These seem to be the only character moments they bother writing.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 10/5/2016 at 8:20 PM, andromeda331 said:

 Except for Arthur, none of the Camelot characters mattered to the story or completed, they never even found out they were sand.

Um, if you mean they were made of sand, they weren't. Just the castle building

 

On 10/15/2016 at 11:30 AM, KingOfHearts said:

I was watching this comedy show about a character whose only purpose is to chew scenery and be obnoxious to an extreme. When played against a straight man, it's funny. But almost every single supporting character praises their idiocy and they never have consequences for their arrogant mistakes. In fact, the characters "learn a lesson" at the end of every episode for coming within a ten-mile radius of daring to question them. This character verbally abuses every person they meet. The moral of the story is to be yourself, even if you're a self-absorbed brat who doesn't let anyone else be themselves. It's grating.

What was the show?

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

What was the show?

I'm embarrassed to say I even watched it... Haters Back Off.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Um, if you mean they were made of sand, they weren't. Just the castle building

 

What was the show?

Arthur used that sand of Avalon or what ever that was called on Guenivere and then on Camelot. We never saw Guenivere learn she was sand or anyone from Camelot learn what happened.

[InsertWordHere]

So do we think the writers decided to kill Hyde off when they were writing episode 4 (and probably read the speculation that it was Jekyll who would turn out to be the villain) and then went back and did the reshoots of episode 1 to show him getting captured? Did they really reshoot a bunch of scenes just so they could put him in a cell until it was time for his centric? I suppose it's slightly better than wandering around town biding his time until the midseason finale like every other villain. 

[Camera One]

The Evil Queen was the bigger villain, so maybe Hyde was always meant to be a means to an end... to show Regina that she might need to die to defeat The Evil Queen.  They wrote him in jail because "wouldn't it be cool if Regina brought him lasagna?"  

[Rumsy4]

I would think they decided to kill off Hyde before the season started. I still think the episode 1 reshoots were so that Hyde could play the (re-)exposition fairy. I feel like Hyde would've been captured by the end of the first episode anyway--they just changed which scene it did. 

[sharky]

Yea, killing a character off isn't something they do on a whim. That was something they would've worked out when they put the whole season together back in May. That being said, I think something changed from the S5 finale to putting season 6 together, namely that Channing Dungey took over at ABC. I wonder if the network -- and the Disney owners -- decided to put a bit of pressure on A&E. I wouldn't be surprised if they told them they needed to add more Disney properties -- hence, Aladdin coming in after they kill off Jekyll/Hyde after only four episodes. It's seriously just a rehash of the Greg/Tamara situation. It was a bad idea that served no purpose and they were axed in the season premiere.

Of course, this does then make me wonder how much control Disney and ABC are exerting on the show now. I wouldn't necessarily be against them having a heavier hand if they control A&E properly. The last time this show seemed put together properly was the Frozen arc so it may not be a bad idea to have some outside influence.

[Camera One]

Jekyll/Hyde was always going to die, though.  It was only a matter of when.  It's four episodes in, and around the time when they switch gears a little, so while there may have been a change in plans, I also could have seen the possibility that they were bored of the shiny new Hyde toy and was ready to let him go.  Remember when they got bored of the Guinevere toy by this point in 5A and the Hook-in-captivity plot in 5B.  

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, sharky said:

It was a bad idea that served no purpose and they were axed in the season premiere.

It clearly wasn't axed because it was a bad idea, but likely because the executives wanted more widely-known characters involved. No surprise they just had Cinderella (when a new adaptation of Cinderella was popular) and Aladdin (one of Disney's most well-known films) heavily featured in the first 4 episodes. Or maybe it's because Dungey just has bad ideas? Maybe since she forced them to change the A and B format, instead we'll get stupid mini-arcs of 4 episodes all season.

[KAOS Agent]

Isn't that what they said we'd get? Mini arcs? I assume the Aladdin stuff will run through the mid-season break and then a new problem will arise.  I don't think the execs forced them out of the A/B format, they just said that they weren't going to do the long break in the middle for any of their shows anymore and maybe the Once writers decided that shorter arcs would work better with the new scheduling. It is possible that internal focus groups showed that Jekyll & Hyde didn't test well and that a big Disney property like Aladdin would be a bigger draw which is why everything was suddenly all about Aladdin in the promos even though he showed up for about a minute in the premiere and we haven't seen him since. 

[Camera One]

If the Writers think the retread Evil Queen stuff is going to last all season, they're even more delusional than previously thought.  

Their writing style is always to create brand new distractions, as one can see by the majority of the plots we have 4 episodes into Season 6.  Emma has the newly made-up crap about her dying prematurely.  David has the brand new made-up retcon about his father.  Snow has the brand new filler with her sudden love of teaching.  Emma, David and Snow don't get to revisit any emotional issues they faced last season.  The only characters actually "working on" old issues (surprisingly) are Rumbelle and of course, Regina, still chipping away at her Darkness, one doppleganger at a time.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

22 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Arthur used that sand of Avalon or what ever that was called on Guenivere and then on Camelot. We never saw Guenivere learn she was sand or anyone from Camelot learn what happened.

She wasn't sand. She was a real person under the influence of sand.

It would have be nice to see her in her right mind after Arthur's death, which we can only presume broke the spell. I really object to their not giving proper closure to that storyline.

[Camera One]

This tweet was actually a reply to another tweet about whether male vs female writers affect the writing on a different show, but it was still amusing.

-------

Jane Espenson  @JaneEspenson

@LUCIFERwriters Agreed. On most shows, stories devised by whole staff. Even if odd writer bias crept in, showrunner rewrite would level it.

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What about entire writer-room bias and showrunner bias, LOL.