The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[ChelseaNH]

we were getting to know him through contemporary Abbie

 

One of the most memorable and talked-about scenes from season 1 was Ichabod's conversation with Yolanda, when Abbie wasn't even present.  While the interactions between Ichabod and Abbie are the best part of the show, Ichabod is also interesting on his own merits, just as Abbie is interesting even when she's not with Ichabod.

[HalcyonDays]

The URL is actually

 

Full address-

http://www.scifinow.co.uk/interviews/sleepy-hollow-season-2-will-be-crazy-and-very-different
Still didn't print out the whole address but that should take you there
Still isn't working-go upthread to phoenics' last post-that one takes you there

 

The website is actually scifinow.co.uk, not scifi.co.uk. I fixed your weblink for you in your original post, DJG1122.

 

I'll throw it in here too. Article link ---> HERE

[CinnamonCW]

The 11/25 EW article with Goffman is here. It's...infuriating.

Oh that one. I misread the original post; I thought it had said an interview with Kurtzman, not Goffman.

Thanks!

[millerlite]

I get the impression that Goffman and Team feel like they are correcting the "mistake" that was made in Seaon 1 with all that "diversity" jazz...

 

There's a perfectly great white actress and protagonist that should be the front and center character ... so why is the black actress/character the one getting all the focus, again?

 

For people like Goffman, there is very little value to "diversity." So everything that I personally loved about Season 1, -- [ Abby, Abby & Jenny, Jenny, Irving, and most of all, the friendship and mutual respect between Abby and Ichcabob ] -- were reduced or put in the sideline.

 

I hope all this talk about a new direction from FOX means that Goffman and his Team are gone for good.

Edited January 24, 2015 by millerlite

[fantique]

I just don't understand what has happened to this show. I keep reading all these excuses by the idiots in charge and it makes no sense. I clearly remember one of the idiots saying they had a seven year plan for the witnesses and every single media event was all about the chemistry of Tom and Nicole. Did they just hand everything over to a new group of people?

It seems like these new writers or show runner have never watched the damn show. They don't even know who the lead characters are! That one fool was whining on twitter and asking for someone to give him a timeline so he could keep shit straight. Dude that's your fucking job! You only had 13 episodes the first season. Did you not get the DVD? Stop bitching that it's so hard to write an apocalypse (Buffy had like 7 or 8) or it's too many episodes (you ain't writing The Wire, you loser). Excuses, excuses even on Amercian history. Pick up a damn book or use google, you moron.

At this point I don't care enough to check but has anyone looked at the credits and noticed a huge shift where everyone involved is new? It can't be the same writers and directors from say the first half of season putting season two together can it? Didn't anyone notice this is not the same show? Did anyone notice the lead actress is no longer a young, feisty cop with a heart of gold but some reject from a bad romance novel? You would think someone from costumes and makeup would speak up and say didn't she used to be short, cute and uh darker complected?

I only started watching because in the original promos Tom Mison was hot. I'm shallow and he is really attractive. I stayed because I fell in love with Abby. Even my Mom, who hates anything remotely sci-fi watched the pilot for Tom, said who was that girl? She is so good, I love her. Guess what? My mom, sister and son all stopped watching. I can't believe I'm gonna say but even poor Tom Mison has lost the hot factor. That's just criminal.

 

 

But the entire concept of the show was something new and it worked! And they didn't keep it. They twisted what worked into something horrible. Just look at Headless. That was the coolest villian to come along in forever and they turned him into a love sick wimp with a goddamn head! Seriously? Who could be so stupid? I want names. I want to bitch slap some sense into somebody. Have they moved to Atlanta? That's a day trip for me. Let me smack the stupid out of some people.

Your rage... Beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOVIN' IT. That's all... Back to lurkdom.

 

                                                                                    

                                                                            (any Skip Beat fans out there? No? *Teary pout*)

Edited January 24, 2015 by fantique

[catrox14]

I really shouldn't have read Goffman's interview. I mean, is he serious? He tells us to just trust them like we did in s1. But what he fails to understand is that they have thrown away everything we LIKED about s1 and he threw away trust by fucking up so badly this season.

He's on a mission. He doesn't give a shit about last season and what we enjoyed overall. He's a dipshit.

[jhlipton]

I miss Season 1 Jenny and kinda resent Season 2 Jenny

 

As a white male, I miss Season 1 Jenny too.  Yes, she could cut your b@lls off, but only if you deserved it.

 

 "The Sleepy Hollow you loved is BACK!"

 

"The Sleepy Hollow you loved is BLACK!"

[phoenics]

As a white male, I miss Season 1 Jenny too.  Yes, she could cut your b@lls off, but only if you deserved it.

LMBO! But she was still vulnerable when the situation called for it - her relationship with her sister is/was awesome... I'm afraid she too could be the one killed off... that would just ... suck.

 

"The Sleepy Hollow you loved is BLACK!"

HA! Good one!!

There was an EW article back from October of 2014 that was wondering "What's wrong with Sleepy Hollow?" because of the ratings slump - it was after Deliverance. I was struck by some of the comments complaining about the diversity of the show - complaining that it felt like "someone was trying to make a diversity conference" and ugly comments like that. I realized that, as a black person, I'd been conditioned to accept tv programming with a cast that largely ignored the presence of people like me, even if that wasn't necessarily my reality (I mean, depending on the situation, I could be surrounded by a group of diverse people). And at the same time, I realized that *some* people had been conditioned the same way - and they (based on that thread) honestly believed that was how it should be.

I keep thinking the SH show runners and producers believed the way they did and tried to "fix" that part of the show. Usually when folks start saying stuff like "color blind casting" it's an attempt to convince people that they looked for the best talent who just "happened" to not be PoC. Usually though, it means they don't really consider PoC actors and actually are specific in casting what they want. Most of the time the casting call slyly "leaves out" PoC as options. Even if they don't put it in the casting call - the casting director "knows" the deal. PoC actors talk/complain about this practice all the time. Coupled with the way the PoC vanished from the "A" storyline (even Abbie, if you want to be honest), I think we can mark paid on that.

It just upsets me that those racist people basically were coddled to and were the ones the show runner/et al cared about pleasing... to the detriment of the show. It just means that Nicole/Abbie and the other Characters of Color do NOT have advocates in the room. Because if they had, the show would have at least found a way NOT to marginalize them and then NOT presented them in stereotypical tropes.

I think that's the part that is bothering me the most - these writers don't seem to even understand that they've written Abbie as a "token" character and she has been stuck in "tropes" this season. She hasn't driven any of the stories at all - that's been Katrina to be honest - not even Crane really drove story this season - except to react to Katrina. All of the forward (or not forward) movement came from Katrina's arc - that really led nowhere except the destruction of the whole reason I thought Sleepy Hollow was Sleepy Hollow. Both Abbie and Crane have done nothing much more this season than react to the MoTW. Everything else not MoTW has been Katrina-driven. And Abbie has been reduced to a prop for all of that... Crane too in a sense - but Abbie has definitely gotten the short shrift in all of this.

It's things like that that make me realize the writers just don't have any PoC advocates or advisors in the writing room. Or even just a NB/Abbie advocate. Any one of them could have echoed what the critics and fans have been saying... and warning them that this wasn't going to go down well.

I remain astonished at the hubris of this writing team. If their "Katrina centralization" had worked, they would probably have just killed Abbie off - or at least shoved her even further into the background and lifted Katrina up as lead.

I still believe Pittura Informante was to be Katrina's unofficial "leading lady debut". BARF.

Edited January 24, 2015 by phoenics

[marceline]

 

It just upsets me that those racist people basically were coddled to and were the ones the show runner/et al cared about pleasing... to the detriment of the show.

You touch on something that is at the heart of a conflict for me. As much as I wish they could fix the show, the truth is they'll never get my trust back. I'll never be the superfan I was in S1. (When I think of how excited people were to see the cast at NYCC, it seems like another life.)

I love the cast and want to see them keep working but part of me wants this show to die just to provide an crystal clear example to executives at Fox and other networks. I want to be able to point to the Sleepy Hollow Debacle and say to these people "That's what happens to shows that cater to old-fashioned, out of date ideas." I want this to be something that years later people can say "Remember what happened to Sleepy Hollow?" 

Edited January 25, 2015 by marceline

[DJG1122]

I think that's the part that is bothering me the most - these writers don't seem to even understand that they've written Abbie as a "token" character and she has been stuck in "tropes" this season. She hasn't driven any of the stories at all - that's been Katrina to be honest - not even Crane really drove story this season - except to react to Katrina. All of the forward (or not forward) movement came from Katrina's arc - that really led nowhere except the destruction of the whole reason I thought Sleepy Hollow was Sleepy Hollow...

I still believe Pittura Informante was to be Katrina's unofficial "leading lady debut". BARF.

I'm thinking they knew exactly what they were doing sidelining Abbie and completely diminishing Frank & Jenny to showcase Katrina. She has driven the entire season so far. Moloch & The Apocalypse Fiends (sounds like a heavy-metal band )had to go because Katrina wasn't a Witness and they couldn't justify her involvement in decisions and co-lead status.

I agree with phoenics that Pittura Informante was to be Katrina's "debut". It was just a little too pat to be anything else.

I have this mental image of Dana Waldon (sp?) talking to Mark Goffman..."You had this critically acclaimed show with a totally fun wacky premise and insane chemistry between your out-of-time white man/contemporary black woman and you thought changing the show to no chemistry between your out-of-time white man/his out-of time white (not very good actress) wife and sidelining your contemporary black woman was a GOOD IDEA? Are you NUTS?"

[may flowers]

This from the EW article:

 

She’s an incredibly strong character, and she has, I think, a very storied history, being both a powerful witch and a spy. We have a great episode coming up in which we learn about her history with the Salem witch trials. Not that she was involved, but her lineage was. That’ll bring her into a whole new light.

 

In November, long after outraged fans made their views known, Goffman is still selling Katrina to us. She, not Abby, is an incredibly strong character (sidenote - how does he define "strong character" because it's not my definition of one.) She, not Abby, has a storied history. She, not Abby, has a great episode coming up (which we have yet to see and which I must make sure to miss.) She, not Abby, is being brought into a whole new light. And he said all this while he claims to have been working on the season finale, which is supposed to be Abby-centric.

 

I think Goffman is incapable of focusing on Abby for any extended period of time. And, I think that means that the SH I fell in love with is gone, because, for me, it's all about Abby and Ichabod and their mission as Witnesses. Their chemistry is palpable, but for me a fun, secondary aspect. 

 

Goffman has made Katrina's opinions and choices all that counts. The character has driven a wedge between the Witnesses. Katrina is always right, and when the Witnesses don't do as she says, she goes ahead and does it anyway, screwing up not just a timeline but also an established storyline. It puts Ichabod in the middle, where he doesn't do well. He is clearly incapable of standing up to his wife, so he takes her side, demeaning his partnership with Abby. And given Goffman's own words, it seems like Katrina is all that matters to him, not Abby.

 

This article convinced me. I'm out until and unless I read here that it's safe to come back.

[DeLurker]

It just means that Nicole/Abbie and the other Characters of Color do NOT have advocates in the room.

It truly boggles the mind that Nicole/Abbie would NEED an advocate in the writers room. Abbie is a great character in a compelling situation with a setup for a great backstory. Nicole had proven herself to be up to the challenge. The writers should have been overflowing with Abbie stories.

Same is true for Jenny and Frank.

But Tom/Ich needed/needs an advocate too. He's been demoted to Doc or Spock to Katrina's Capt. Kirk*. His purpose this season has been to move her forward, in the process making Ich increasingly dimmer. Tom has missed capitalizing on his curmudgeonly charm and sharing screen time with actors who generate almost tangible chemistry with him.

 

ETA:  *Capt. Kirk is probably the photo-negative of Katrina now that I think of it.  Kirk over emoted. So a Star Trek parallel is not good, but I can't think of what would be.

Edited January 24, 2015 by DeLurker

[savinggrace]

This from the EW article:

 

She’s an incredibly strong character, and she has, I think, a very storied history, being both a powerful witch and a spy. We have a great episode coming up in which we learn about her history with the Salem witch trials. Not that she was involved, but her lineage was. That’ll bring her into a whole new light.

 

 

 

It sounds like deja vu. Didn't he say before the 2nd Season they we would be seeing Katrina in a new light and we would "understand" her better? This whole season has been about rehabilitating Katrina.  How much more of Katrina's history is needed? Why is it relevant? Why do we need to see her in a new light or understand her? She's the wife of the leading male of a crime solving duo. What buddy cop show delves that deeply into the spouse of either of the leads?

Edited January 24, 2015 by savinggrace

[kieyra]

It sounds like deja vu. Didn't he say before the 2nd Season they we would be seeing Katrina in a new light and we would "understand" her better? This whole season has been about rehabilitating Katrina.  How much more of Katrina's history is needed? Why is it relevant? Why do we need to see her in a new light or understand her? She's the wife of the leading male of a crime solving duo. What buddy cop show delves that deeply into the spouse of either of the leads?

 

Yep. I was never really a SH superfan, just enjoyed the lead chemistry, and way back in the beginning I remember being disappointed with the presence of the undead wife, and then the no-longer-dead wife, and impatient with any storylines regarding her. It wasn't because I suspected any behind-the-scenes shenanigans, racism/favoritism etc, I just knew that from a storytelling angle it made no goddamned sense. It wasn't necessary for the setup and was just a pointless distraction.

[DearEvette]

hu·bris
ˈ(h)yo͞obrəs/
noun: hubris

    excessive pride or self-confidence.
    synonyms: arrogance, conceit, haughtiness, hauteur, pride, self-importance, egotism, pomposity, superciliousness, superiority;

 

What I am mainly getting  from all of this is that Goffman is a very bad showrunner with a writing room that feels like it is filled with just out of writing school amateurs  and who because of all of the critical and fan-love from S1 they developed a sense of Hubris that they could do what they wanted in S2 an everyone would be on board with it no matter what. 

 

Even worse, when confronted with criticism & declining ratings, rather than reacting to it like professionals they should be they reacted to it with all the arrogance that Hubris gives them.  Goffman's response was to continue  to hard-sell his vision of Katrina, convinced that as long as he talked about her enough & showcased her enough, we'd all be converted  (even against growing evidence that nobody cared about his vision or his boy boner with the character).  The writers' response was to lash out, showing how immature they really are.

 

I don't get the sense that there was some agenda to quietly rid the show of the black actors or really even to reduce Nicole's role.  But I do get the sense that Goffman came in with an agenda for S2 and was writing for it rather than for their story.  And in his arrogance he lost sight of the story, the characters, the actors and the audience.

 

In Greek tragedy, the character Icarus whose own Hubris made him challenge the gods, got his wings nipped and he crashed and burned back to earth.  We can only hope this is what happens to Goffmann.

[DJG1122]

hu·bris

ˈ(h)yo͞obrəs/

noun: hubris

    excessive pride or self-confidence.

    synonyms: arrogance, conceit, haughtiness, hauteur, pride, self-importance, egotism, pomposity, superciliousness, superiority;

 

What I am mainly getting  from all of this is that Goffman is a very bad showrunner with a writing room that feels like it is filled with just out of writing school amateurs  and who because of all of the critical and fan-love from S1 they developed a sense of Hubris that they could do what they wanted in S2 an everyone would be on board with it no matter what. 

 

Even worse, when confronted with criticism & declining ratings, rather than reacting to it like professionals they should be they reacted to it with all the arrogance that Hubris gives them.  Goffman's response was to continue  to hard-sell his vision of Katrina, convinced that as long as he talked about her enough & showcased her enough, we'd all be converted  (even against growing evidence that nobody cared about his vision or his boy boner with the character).  The writers' response was to lash out, showing how immature they really are.

 

I don't get the sense that there was some agenda to quietly rid the show of the black actors or really even to reduce Nicole's role.  But I do get the sense that Goffman came in with an agenda for S2 and was writing for it rather than for their story.  And in his arrogance he lost sight of the story, the characters, the actors and the audience.

 

In Greek tragedy, the character Icarus whose own Hubris made him challenge the gods, got his wings nipped and he crashed and burned back to earth.  We can only hope this is what happens to Goffmann.

Changing the 2 Witnesses to the 3 Musketeers.

Edited January 24, 2015 by DJG1122

[pcta]

Changing the 2 Witnesses to the 3 Musketeers.

Changing the 2 Witnesses to the 3 Mousketeers. Fixed that for you.

[DeLurker]

Changing the 2 Witnesses to the 3 Mousketeers. Fixed that for you.

As dismal as discussing SH is this season, I love that you guys can still make me laugh at the madness/badness/sadness of it all!

ETA: verging on 2 Witlesses if the story continues on its current path.

Edited January 24, 2015 by DeLurker

[catrox14]

I just can't believe this show that I adored to a silly amount is being dismantled over one crappy character. I just do not understand how they can be so incredibly blind to what we all generally liked about the show.  Sigh.  It really is disheartening.

Edited January 24, 2015 by catrox14

[ChelseaNH]

What buddy cop show delves that deeply into the spouse of either of the leads?

 

She's been a series regular for the whole run of the show.  It's not weird to spend time developing a regular character.  The weird part was how other regular characters had no screen time.

[phoenics]

I'm thinking they knew exactly what they were doing sidelining Abbie and completely diminishing Frank & Jenny to showcase Katrina. She has driven the entire season so far. Moloch & The Apocalypse Fiends (sounds like a heavy-metal band )had to go because Katrina wasn't a Witness and they couldn't justify her involvement in decisions and co-lead status.

You know what? You're exactly right - I think that's EXACTLY right. When abaiers complained that it was hard to write a historical apocalypse show - he really meant that it's hard to write an Apocalypse show around Two Witnesses as main characters with Katrina as the REAL main character.

And - he's right! It IS hard to do that - which is why they should have stuck with NOT trying to make Katrina a main "central" character. She has NEVER fit into this show... and forcing her to fit just made them morph the show into something unrecognizable.

I hate them.

I agree with phoenics that Pittura Informante was to be Katrina's "debut". It was just a little too pat to be anything else.

I have this mental image of Dana Waldon (sp?) talking to Mark Goffman..."You had this critically acclaimed show with a totally fun wacky premise and insane chemistry between your out-of-time white man/contemporary black woman and you thought changing the show to no chemistry between your out-of-time white man/his out-of time white (not very good actress) wife and sidelining your contemporary black woman was a GOOD IDEA? Are you NUTS?"

I'm not even sure Fox really truly gets it - Katrina will likely outlive this season and all others... Goffman will make her evil before he even thinks about killing Katrina - I'm sure he will never do it. The only hope we have is Fox stepping in and forcing his hand... And even if he did kill off Katrina, he'd just create a "tough as nails FBI agent who is Katrina's doppelgänger" to come in and mess up our show.

[phoenics]

It sounds like deja vu. Didn't he say before the 2nd Season they we would be seeing Katrina in a new light and we would "understand" her better? This whole season has been about rehabilitating Katrina.  How much more of Katrina's history is needed? Why is it relevant? Why do we need to see her in a new light or understand her? She's the wife of the leading male of a crime solving duo. What buddy cop show delves that deeply into the spouse of either of the leads?

The reality is no buddy cop shows disrupt the chemistry of their two leads. They don't spend time developing the wife of the male lead - in fact, in most buddy cop shows, there is no wife. And if there is stuff, it's offscreen.

Katrina may be a central character in The Sleepy Hollow Tale - but she is not - nor should she ever be - a central character in Sleepy Hollow the tv show. To make her one, the writers have completely twisted the show into something unrecognizable.

The writers should have stuck to their original premise to kill Katrina off in the pilot. So let's look at these issues: 1) the marginalization/erasure of the PoC characters, 2) the sidelining of Abbie and the lifting up of Katrina into the "lead" role and 3) the "tropifying" of the PoC characters into nothing more than props...

When you add that to the fact that there was apparently some kind of "hesitation" with NB (at least from her - and apparently none of the cast/showrunners thought to reassure her) about her popularity early on... something becomes crystal clear.

I think this proves that Katrina was NOT killed off in the pilot as originally planned because of racism (whether conscious or unconscious). The show runner wanted to pull off a bait and switch. Bait us with Abbie and diversity and the awesome show that came with it and then switch Abbie out for Katrina and "hope that the awesome show remains".

The ONLY thing that has stopped Goffman (now) is that it didn't work. And it will never work - because Katrina simply doesn't FIT in Sleepy Hollow. She never did. The creators of this show were RIGHT to write her in the pilot as being DEAD. Because after she did the thing to put Ichabod to sleep, her role was DONE. She never should have existed beyond being a ghost at that point - never - ever to be corporeal and eventually to move on to the other side permanently if she was to be seen at all past the pilot.

Goffman's attempts to make Katrina relevant and "central" led to:

1. Crane looking like a fool all the time and being generally an ass

2. Abraham replacing Headless for all intents and purposes

3. Henry being the Crane son

4. War being a whiny petulant child with daddy/mommy issues

5. Our villains being defanged completely

6. The Apocalypse aspects of the show dropped

7. The Witness bond being disrupted and diminished

8. Constant CFD

9. 1.3 rating

10. Abbie being sidelined

11. Henry and Abraham getting a LOT more screen time

12. Jenny and Irving shoved into the background to accommodate the increased screen time of Henry and Abraham, who got the extra screen time to increase Katrina's screen time... although Hawley took up some too.

Die Katrina. Die.

Edited January 24, 2015 by phoenics

[Indi]

When you add that to the fact that there was apparently some kind of "hesitation" with NB (at least from her - and apparently none of the cast/showrunners thought to reassure her) about her popularity early on... something becomes crystal clear.

 

Reassure her? I'm pretty sure it was them, the showrunners, who demeaned her and told her Tom Mison was the real star, that the show worked thanks to him, not her, and that she shouldn't expect a full room. Who else eroded her role during the catastrophic season? Who wanted to make "Mama", the only Abbie centric episode they planned for her this season, a B plot? Who else could tell her she wasn't enough? Not the network, the fans or friends.

 

They never expected this fallout. In their hubris, they thought we'd just accept the replacement, they had planned for Nicole.They expected us to fall in love with Katrina, just by showing more face time and insisting she's the be all end all of everything that matters in the show. They placed all their bets on a corset and an ugly red wig. Had it worked, Nicole would have been without a job after the season finale and they would have had the audience they were always aiming for.

[DeLurker]

I still believe Pittura Informante was to be Katrina's unofficial "leading lady debut".

Which would be cemented by Ep 2.15 Spell Caster.

Think the show's name will be changed to Everyone Loves Katrina before the S2 finale?

[phoenics]

I completely agree.

And to think - this wouldn't be the first time this happened to a black actress on a show. I'm worried for Candice Patton on The Flash - there is already enough mess going on there - I really hope those show runners are smarter than SH's.

A curse on racism and all its houses.

[evilmindatwork]

The reality is no buddy cop shows disrupt the chemistry of their two leads. They don't spend time developing the wife of the male lead - in fact, in most buddy cop shows, there is no wife. And if there is stuff, it's offscreen.

Katrina may be a central character in The Sleepy Hollow Tale - but she is not - nor should she ever be - a central character in Sleepy Hollow the tv show. To make her one, the writers have completely twisted the show into something unrecognizable.

 

 

The Sleepy Hollow writers could probably take lessons from the writers of a much less critically acclaimed show, Grimm. 

 

The Grimm writers seem to tweak the show ever so slightly, here and there, whenever they figure out things are not working. They don't let the fans dictate their creative choices but seem to respond subtly to popular fan opinion. Also, while Nick remains the lead on Grimm, the show does a good job of allowing each character to have certain show case episodes.  As a result, each character feels whole and fleshed out on the show without losing focus on who the actual leads are. 

Edited January 25, 2015 by evilmindatwork

[phoenics]

The Sleepy Hollow writers could probably take lessons from the writers of a much less critically acclaimed show, Grimm. 

 

The Grimm writers seem to tweak the show ever so slightly here and there whenever they figure out things are not working. They don't let the fans dictate their creative choices but seem to respond subtly to fan opinion. Also, while Nick remains the lead on Grimm, the show does a pretty good job of allowing each character to have certain show case episodes. As a result, each character feels whole and fleshed out on the show without losing focus on who the actual leads are.

I agree. Grimm even had a problematic character and it responded to fan criticism pretty quickly and worked really hard to make the character less annoying. And it has way more characters than SH, but somehow manages not to sideline any of them for long periods of time.

I just watched the latest episode on my DVR (I had a few to catch up on) and it was really, really good.

To think that used to be SH (although I did love Grimm first)... and now Grimm has been picked up for syndication on TNT (I think)... it's going to air on Wednesdays...

SH really screwed the pooch.

[blixie]

The other thing that bothers me about trying to bring Katrina in (whilst simultaeously arguing Abbie is always in their "thoughts") is that the show received a lot of X Files comparisons in terms of Ichabbie's chemistry as investigators and more, and I distinctly remember one of the main guys (Olin, Wiseman, Orci, Kurtzman) saying they conceived this as a two hander! That they very much were going for a Mulder-Scully vibe, and also wanted to evoke Twin Peaks, in the sense of turning Sleepy Hollow into a place that is weird and full of weirdos. I remember being confused by that part though because, I kept waiting for the reveal of witches good/evil including playing up whether Irvin was in a coven, and if that coven was really on team witness or against it. But the second Henry the Sin Eater showed up that all seemed to fade in to the back ground. 

 

Anyway the idea that they wanted it to be about just the two witness' really supports the idea they wanted to supplant Abbie for Katrina, and wanted to turn this into a supernatural Hart to Hart. 

 

At this point I'm like BURN IT DOWN. 

[RiddleyWalker]

 That they very much were going for a Mulder-Scully vibe, and also wanted to evoke Twin Peaks, in the sense of turning Sleepy Hollow into a place that is weird and full of weirdos. I remember being confused by that part though because, I kept waiting for the reveal of witches good/evil including playing up whether Irvin was in a coven, and if that coven was really on team witness or against it. But the second Henry the Sin Eater showed up that all seemed to fade in to the back ground. 

 

Had to respond to this as the Kurtzman interview mentioning how much Twin Peaks influenced the vision for the show influenced me to the point where I've actually watched Twin Peaks for the first time.  :)   (The Psych episode, "Dual Spires" also influenced me--but that's another story…) 

 

In any event, other than the sign for Sleepy Hollow (population 144, 000, which is a Book of Revelation reference) and the relatively limited geographic scope of the show, I don't see a lot of similarities. Compared to Sleepy Hollow, I feel like I know much more about the population of TPs. The cast is much larger in TPs with multiple plot-lines in a very soap opera-ish fashion-- though it really worked in S1 of TPs. The David Lynch "weirdness" seems to take a deft hand as far as writing and directing to pull off, so the second season of TPs suffered as directors trying to follow that vision overplayed it. I'm disappointed that SH hasn't focused at all on the town of Sleepy Hollow or at least its "weirdos" other than as briefly appearing characters.

 

I would love to see Ichabod's "friends" such as Caroline,  and the recently deceased Hollister, stick around for a bit and learn about their weird quirks and family secrets. I know this goes against the idea of focusing on Ichabod and Abbie, but as B-plots, this might be a way to flesh-out Sleepy Hollow as a weird (and hopefully intriguing) town that our heroes are working in.

Edited January 25, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[phoenics]

I think that if they incorporate more people and have them connected to both Abbie and Ichy without taking away from Ichabbie, then that's cool. That's what should happen.

As it is now, whenever Ichy shows up with a friend on this show, it's like watching the guy in the red shirt go down to the surface of the planet in Star Trek.

[Sasha]

I never thought the writers would bring Katrina out of purgatory. I stupidly thought this was a clever way to keep Crane and Abby out of any romantic nonsense. I love them as best friends with this great cop buddy vibe. No romance. How refreshing to have partners who are male/female, black/white, modern/vintage. An unlikely duo and from the first episode you saw the connection.

I never picked up any romantic vibes and I was so relieved this wasn't going to turn into a will they or won't they 7 year tease. How could it? These very clever writers had a great solution in the ghostly and rarely seen wife off in purgatory. Every now and again she can send a cryptic message to move the plot along. But her real purpose was to keep the witnesses bond tight without any sexual overtones.

After a couple of episodes it was so obvious there was zero chemistry between Crane and Katrina. She is so bad. The acting plus the hair and makeup. She sucks so hard. There's a reason for that, right? She can't be a romantic foil when there is zero chemistry between her and Crane. She must have but a spell on him. I just know she will be the big bad by the season finale. The shadiness and bad acting are really a clever trick! I figured out the plot twist. These writers can't fool me. Ha ha boy was I wrong!

[savinggrace]

It's weird I've managed to go my whole TV viewing life without being faced with the crises of one of my favorite shows facing premature cancellation. Now it's happened twice in less than a year with Twisted and now Sleepy Hollow. In both cases a new showrunner came in and decided to fix something that wasn't broken which basically amounted to demoting the POC in the cast. It's disturbing to me that a hit show that has POC leads is viewed as something that needs to be "fixed". Usually --or at least when there's a competent showrunner -- they double down on whatever is making the show work. In the case of Twisted and SH they did the opposite.

 

That the execs at Fox wan to wait to announce a renewal signals to me that they are probably looking to see if the ratings rebound. A steady small increase could signal a good prospect of renewal but if the show continues to drop to series lows I don't see how they can justify renewal especially now that filiming has to be relocated from NC to Atlanta.  It will be another great concept squandered by an inept showrunner.

 

The real story on SH will happen after it's cancelled. I look forward some day to hearing what Nicole Beharie thought as she read through the season 2 scripts and saw that another female character's story arc had taken precedence and that she was demoted. Surely we'll hear from Orlando Jones. I'd also like to hear from some of the writers at the table. someone probably saw the disaster coming, tried to warn against it but likely got voted down. I'd love to hear from that writer.

[DJG1122]

No. They don't expect to see a rebound at this point. They know the deal. They know the disgust felt by the audience. They know the reasons. They know the successes of "Empire" and "Gotham" and the subtle or not-so-subtle implications. They're hiring/firing/talking to people at this point (have been for awhile). Figuring out profit, logistics, etc..I don't mean to sound as if I know what their (FOX's) specifics are, but, I've been in film/tv for decades- pre/prod/post- I know the drill. I've seen how it works over and over again. Sometimes you're blind-sided by the abruptness of your dismissal, but, usually, you know what's coming. Usually, you don't want to announce a change in the top people (EPs/Showrunners/Writers/Directors) at this point. It's better to wait until the season's ended. Renewal could be announced earlier, though.

Thank you. I'm going with this and believing SH will be fixed.

[methodwriter85]

Twisted feels a little different though- Jo was always clearly the character we were supposed to root for and care about, while Katrina was basically the exposition fairy in season 1.

[Limelight]

No. They don't expect to see a rebound at this point. They know the deal. They know the disgust felt by the audience. They know the reasons. They know the successes of "Empire" and "Gotham" and the subtle or not-so-subtle implications. They're hiring/firing/talking to people at this point (have been for awhile). Figuring out profit, logistics, etc..I don't mean to sound as if I know what their (FOX's) specifics are, but, I've been in film/tv for decades- pre/prod/post- I know the drill. I've seen how it works over and over again. Sometimes you're blind-sided by the abruptness of your dismissal, but, usually, you know what's coming. Usually, you don't want to announce a change in the top people (EPs/Showrunners/Writers/Directors) at this point. It's better to wait until the season's ended. Renewal could be announced earlier, though.

Would it be a good thing to start the show in January? Have a longer hiatus? I think it could help cleanse the palette of fans who had to taste the awfulness of this season. It might allow more time to come up with good stories, take the show back to 13 episodes and maybe give a chance for people who left to come back and watch, almost like its a new show since its been off the air for six months. If they change show runners, will they need a lot more time to regroup than just the summer hiatus?

Edited January 25, 2015 by Limelight

[savinggrace]

Twisted feels a little different though- Jo was always clearly the character we were supposed to root for and care about, while Katrina was basically the exposition fairy in season 1.

 

The trajectory of Sleepy Hollow and Twisted are similar in how popular POC characters were marginalized for no apparent reason. I never felt like I was supposed to root for Jo on Twisted. I actually thought Danny played by Indian actor Avan Jogia was supposed to be the focus. Indeed the original title of twisted was "Socio" which described his character. I would say Twisted was much worse and more obvious in its marginalization of the Black female character, Lacey. While Abbie's story on SH has been placed on the back-burner, she is at least getting face time. Poor Lacey's family and friends were removed from the Twisted, the leading male's interest was switched from her to Jo, and her screentime drastically diminished. I mean the episode where Lacey and Danny's sex tape got leaked and Lacey's biggest concern was #PoorJo. I just couldn't....

[blixie]

 

Would it be a good thing to start the show in January? Have a longer hiatus?

I don't think so I think when your show is tied to a story that is universally identified with Fall/Halloween you kind of need to keep hitting that window of time for optimal marketing/viewers. I do hope they cut back the episodes, and I think it's a mistake to reject the cable model out of hand, cause I do think the overall quality of cable shows is superior to network, but that's less about episode counts and more about a strong auteristic vision BTS, though those things are tied together. 

 

There aren't a lot of showrunners/producers in network tv, who only have one project they are focused on, The Kings at The Good Wife are one of the few and what do you know that show is pretty consistently excellent over it's whole run.

Edited January 25, 2015 by blixie

[millerlite]

 

The Kings at The Good Wife are one of the few and what do you know that show is pretty consistently excellent over it's whole run.

 

Oh ... Good God, no !!! Not The Kings. I watch that show despite how casually racist it is ... There's a certain white liberal casual racism to how race is dealt with on that show, that is just cringeworthy.

Edited January 25, 2015 by millerlite

[MissAlmond]

I trust the word of LinaLamont in knowing how show business works.  After all, she once told the head of Monumental Pictures that she could sue.  LOL

Edited January 25, 2015 by MissAlmond

[jhlipton]

We have a great episode coming up in which we learn about her history with the Salem witch trials. Not that she was involved, but her lineage was. 

 

So even in this show meant to high-light the StruggleWitch, she's got no actual investment!  How stupid are these guys?

 

WRT racism, Goffmsnn seems the pattern of Republicans who say or do something to support structural racism, then when the out-and-out racists cheer and everyone else goes "WTF"?, make some half-hearted attempt to back off, but make sure their core constituency remains happy. 

[Sparger Springs]

Well I've read everyone else's opinion. So here is mine for what its worth, I don't blame Katia Winter for the decline in the show. She is an actress that wanted a job and got it.  She isn't the best actress in the world and the story they have written for her wasn't well thought out. They made her basically useless and she is the star they have hitched their wagon to. Headless should have stayed headless. Every agent in the apocalypse shouldn't be former acquaintances and relatives of the Cranes. Headless should have been a demon from hell and War shouldn't be a 235 year old man whining about his parents. I still haven't' figured out why this old man is angry at his parent who basically died before he was even born. 

 

I told people Abby would be sidelined and Katrina would be made the star of the show on the old TWOP boards. I was hoping I would be wrong. I think the people in charge just can't imagine a black leading lady, even after their own show proved them wrong.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Sparger Springs

[LeeLeePanda]

I'm almost afraid to post in this thread, because I'm one of the few people who doesn't hate watch/want the head of Mark Groffman. If there was a thread about how to fix Sleepy Hollow I'd post there. One of the reasons I fell in love with Sleepy Hollow was because of Abbie. As a black woman, I found it to be refreshing to see an African American character who was smart, competent, and entertaining at the same time. The addition of Jenny and Irving made this show a rarity: 3 black leads, but not a "black" show. I agree that all three characters have been sidelined this season.

I think tv executives don't understand or appreciate the power of black viewers. One of the reasons Scandal is ABC's highest rated shows is that black viewers will support good shows with POC leads. Not only that, but the fact that Shonda and the TPTB encouraged their viewers to live tweet the show, which can be almost more entertaining to follow than watching Scandal. Black Twitter is a force to be reckoned with. How to Get Away With Murder is another example of that formula working.

I'm hoping the success of those shows, and their new hit Empire will make TPTB force the Sleepy Hollow producers to think of their POC viewers, and how we affect the future of the show. #sleepyholla is what I follow on Twitter for live tweeting, and the viewers are hilarious and on point. Bring the focus back to Abbie, Crane, Irving, and Jenny. I actually don't mind Hawley in small doses. Heck, I'd be ok with Katrina in even smaller doses. I feel like these are the first steps that need to be taken to fix the show for the rest of the season, and next season if they are renewed.

Edited January 26, 2015 by LeeLeePanda

[jhlipton]

I'm one of the few people who doesn't hate watch/want the head of Mark Groffman.

One of the reasons I fell in love with Sleepy Hollow was because of Abbie. As a black woman, I found it to be refreshing to see an African American character who was smart, competent, and entertaining at the same time. The addition of Jenny and Irving made this show a rarity: 3 black leads, but not a "black" show. I agree that all three characters have been sidelined this season.

It's pretty apparent that the "sidelining" was done by Goffman. So why wouldn't you be angry at the man that wrecked a great show?

[LeeLeePanda]

It's pretty apparent that the "sidelining" was done by Goffman. So why wouldn't you be angry at the man that wrecked a great show?

I honestly don't know much about him or what he's done beyond what's posted here and on other sites. He's a tv producer in Hollywood. He's making his money. He doesn't care about what you think, and doesn't have to. If he gets fired from this show he'll probably find another and laugh his way to the bank. That's the way things go. I'm still being entertained by the show despite all of its faults. If I wasn't I'd drop it like a hot potato and not look back. I've done it before, and I don't feel bad. I don't owe him anything, so why get upset over something I personally can't control?

I know a lot of you don't feel that way, and I respect that. You have every right to your feelings about him. I think the show can be fixed, and maybe firing Groffman will be the first step. Or maybe someone will come in who will be even worse. That's just how Hollywood works,

[phoenics]

Well I've read everyone else's opinion. So here is mine for what its worth, I don't blame Katia Winter for the decline in the show. She is an actress that wanted a job and got it.  She isn't the best actress in the world and the story they have written for her wasn't well thought out. They made her basically useless and she is the star they have hitched their wagon to. Headless should have stayed headless. Every agent in the apocalypse shouldn't be former acquaintances and relatives of the Cranes. Headless should have been a demon from hell and War shouldn't be a 235 year old man whining about his parents. I still haven't' figured out why this old man is angry at his parent who basically died before he was even born.

The only problem with this is that it isn't entirely true. Katia Winter did not audition for the part of the Katrina we are seeing right now and not even the part of the Katrina we saw past the pilot in S1. Because Katrina was supposed to be killed off in the pilot. Dead. Gone.

That's why she never chemistry tested with Tom Mison or anyone else in the cast. She wasn't supposed to be around.

Katia Winter knew that she wasn't long term on the show when she was cast. She was cast for a short term role that didn't require the prerequisites for hiring, like chemistry testing with her character's husband's portrayer, or chemistry testing with ANYONE.

And I think it's beyond wrong that she achieved this role without chemistry testing with the rest of the cast. The rest of the cast had to EARN their roles on the show (they chem tested and had to pass to be offered roles) and apparently FIGHT for every scrap of story they got (Jenny/LG, Irving/OJ). And even though Tom Mison had to chemistry test with Abbie/NB to get his part - NB still had to "earn" her role. She still chem tested. Yet their roles have been diminished and minimized or messed up (see Tom Mison's Ichabod) to prop up Katia Winter, who somehow got her small part elevated to a HUGE part without earning it an any way, shape or form.

That's not really all on her - she saw and opportunity and took it - but I side eye her just like a side eye a guy who becomes "friends" with a girl as a consolation prize only to act all entitled and angry if/when she doesn't want to be "more than friends". Dude - you didn't audition for "more than friends" you tried to slip in unnoticed as the "friend" while you schemed and connived to get in her panties.

KW is exactly the same.

I'm almost afraid to post in this thread, because I'm one of the few people who doesn't hate watch/want the head of Mark Groffman. If there was a thread about how to fix Sleepy Hollow I'd post there. One of the reasons I fell in love with Sleepy Hollow was because of Abbie. As a black woman, I found it to be refreshing to see an African American character who was smart, competent, and entertaining at the same time. The addition of Jenny and Irving made this show a rarity: 3 black leads, but not a "black" show. I agree that all three characters have been sidelined this season.

I think tv executives don't understand or appreciate the power of black viewers. One of the reasons Scandal is ABC's highest rated shows is that black viewers will support good shows with POC leads. Not only that, but the fact that Shonda and the TPTB encouraged their viewers to live tweet the show, which can be almost more entertaining to follow than watching Scandal. Black Twitter is a force to be reckoned with. How to Get Away With Murder is another example of that formula working.

I'm hoping the success of those shows, and their new hit Empire will make TPTB force the Sleepy Hollow producers to think of their POC viewers, and how we affect the future of the show. #sleepyholla is what I follow on Twitter for live tweeting, and the viewers are hilarious and on point. Bring the focus back to Abbie, Crane, Irving, and Jenny. I actually don't mind Hawley in small doses. Heck, I'd be ok with Katrina in even smaller doses. I feel like these are the first steps that need to be taken to fix the show for the rest of the season, and next season if they are renewed.

Don't know why you were afraid to post this here - I agreed with everything except the little part about Katrina, lol, but that's okay!

[marceline]

I don't blame Katia. IMO, she's a bad actress but hardly the only one on TV right now.

 

I do blame Goffman but not so much for being racist (because I don't whether or not he is) but for not wanting to write the show he was hired to write. One of my repeated complaints about the crash is that this is a sci-fi/fantasy show written by people who don't like or respect the genre. What made this show groundbreaking - besides the diversity - was the way it embraced and mixed history and mythology and religion into this completely beautiful, original batshit craziness. The headless horseman with a machine gun? Ben Franklinstein's monster? Freemasons, Hessians, Jenny as Indiana Jones for Corbin to get artifacts, etc... That's what Sleepy Hollow was about. You could tell that a LOT of energy and thought went into world-building for the first season and Goffman decided in season 2 that he simply couldn't be bothered with it even though that kind of detail is what draws people in.

 

This season you could feel the laziness. It was replaced by a rote, paint-by-numbers approach. Every show was just "blah, blah...mention a historic figure...blah blah get magic gadget from Hawley (notice how Hawley became keeper of the artifacts instead of Jenny)...blah blah...mix in a little talk of magic in order to prop Katrina...blather rinse repeat." The diversity issues with S2 are a direct result of the show being written by someone lacking the kind of imagination that made SH a breakout hit. Goffman can't imagine a world where Abbie or Jenny or Irving would be considered more important than Katrina or Hawley and that's the show he wrote.

Edited January 26, 2015 by marceline

[DeLurker]

S2 has been like going to a highly acclaimed restaurant with a great kitchen, ordering the Chef's Special and being served gruel.

[cassandle]

Gruel with long strands of synthetic red hair in it :)

[Blackhoney]

Oh my gawd, now that's funny.

[phoenics]

Gruel with long strands of synthetic red hair in it :)

Aaargh, blegh.