The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[savinggrace]

I've just started DVRing this season and right off the bat it seems they have doubled down on everything people complained about the last season. Diversity? Forget it. The cast went from majority minority to now majority White. Katrina got in the way of Ichabbie? Let's get rid of her and bring in TWO new love interests --Betsy and Zoe. They basically replaced one Black guy for another with Irving being ousted for Lance Grosse's character. They also swapped out one White guy for another and downgraded Hawley with a less attractive, boring Joe Corbin who brings absolutely nothing new to the table. At least Hawley brought comic relief and was a great foil to Crane I'm still not sure why Joe is needed other than as a romantic partner for Jenny who I never felt was needed on the show (see my thoughts in the unpopular opinions thread).

[Miss Dee]

*shrugs* You are entitled to your opinion. It's not what I'm seeing, however.

[jhlipton]

I think you may be forgetting how side-lined Jenny and Frank were in Season 2.  So they've actually brought back 2 minority characters while adding two very minor white characters (and a Hispanic in a medium-sized role).  

I count that as -1 white (Katrina); +2 blacks (Lance and Jenny), +1/2 whites (Busty and Zzzzzzzzoe) and +1 Hispanic.  As far as main characters, they've gone from 2 whites and a black add-o to a black Witness, a white Witness (equal partners) with a black "Scooby" and a white "Scooby".

[kimberella]

They also swapped out one White guy for another and downgraded Hawley with a less attractive, boring Joe Corbin who brings absolutely nothing new to the table. At least Hawley brought comic relief and was a great foil to Crane I'm still not sure why Joe is needed other than as a romantic partner for Jenny who I never felt was needed on the show (see my thoughts in the unpopular opinions thread).

On the contrary, he was needed to be a romantic partner for Jenny, as you yourself mentioned, because Jenny is the de facto Abbie replacement, when it comes to be given the complete character treatment, as you cleverly remarked in the unpopular opinions thread:

 

because the writers did not view Nicole Beharie as a sexually viable lead.

Abbie's sexuality can only be references to the past, that don't even need their own flashbacks, like Crane's romances, because how dare we hope them to be treated equally?

 

It's not that she's asexual. I'm sure they (Goffman, CC...) prided themselves on the fact, that we couldn't call them out on this, because they made sure to give her "A Past". Except that they were completely wrong, as I'm sure they soon realized. In the end, the on screen treatment is the only thing that matters and what is happening on screen is that Abbie is given the working mule without a love life treatment.

 

Another more disturbing idea, that has been proposed (assuming Ichabbie is endgame), is that, besides being a dependable friend and partner, Abbie needs to be sexually pure on screen, to be thought worthy of the White Male Lead. The only man we'll ever see her be sexual with is Crane. Of course, that idea was completely repugnant to me, but I can see why these people, who think that giving her the working mule treatment is okay, could find the merit in this if they are ever forced to write Ichabbie.

 

But back to Joe, his inclusion this season as romantic partner to Jenny was also necessary to dodge any criticism about racism in the writing room. They are pro interracial pairings, you guys! Pity that none of that involves their black lead. Oop!

[savinggrace]

Abbie's sexuality can only be references to the past, that don't even need their own flashbacks, like Crane's romances, because how dare we hope them to be treated equally?

It's not that she's asexual. I'm sure they (Goffman, CC...) prided themselves on the fact, that we couldn't call them out on this, because they made sure to give her "A Past". Except that they were completely wrong, as I'm sure they soon realized. In the end, the on screen treatment is the only thing that matters and what is happening on screen is that Abbie is given the working mule without a love life treatment.

.

I agee. Abbie's relationships and past life experiences are all tell and no show while every phase of Crane's love life is painstakingly chronicled in a flashback, You can tell when the writers have an affinity for a character because they can't go into enough detail about that character. Every aspect of Crane's past is worthy of a casting call and recreation on screen meanwhile we have to be contented with a few sentences descibing Abbie's past relationships. Apparently female character development on SH requires a writer to find you "hot" -- Jenny and Katrina got entire romantic subplots because some writer took a liking to the actual actresses.

Watching the episodes back to back has highlighted how repetitive the show is. Every mystery is solved when Abbie has a thought which triggers a memory in Crane which leads him to run to a book and find the answer they need. The show is re-treading ground. Didn't we have a villain last year who unleashed a new monster every week? Didn't we have a murmuring witch?

I have never seen a more underserved and overshadowed lead character on television than Abbie. They couldn't let Abbie be the resident badass female. They had to bring in badass Jenny, then failed "badass" Katrina. Now we've got badass Betsey Ross and badass Sophie. Is Zoe going to turn out to be badass too?

Edited December 15, 2015 by savinggrace

[Julia]

Apparently female character development on SH requires a writer to find you "hot" -- Jenny and Katrina got entire romantic subplots because some writer took a liking to the actual actresses.

I would substitute screen time for character development. The only thing we learned about Jenny or Katrina (or Betsy) is that men want to have sex with them, which doesn't say too much about their inner lives.

[HalcyonDays]

I would substitute screen time for character development. The only thing we learned about Jenny or Katrina (or Betsy) is that men want to have sex with them, which doesn't say too much about their inner lives.

 

Yup. And not only that - Jenny got "romantic" with Hawley (whilst wearing a black leather mini - so 1980's) because Metzner was crushing on LG. Creepy as hell knowing this fact while watching the scene. Substance over sex any day (well, most days).

[Free]

Watching the episodes back to back has highlighted how repetitive the show is. Every mystery is solved when Abbie has a thought which triggers a memory in Crane which leads him to run to a book and find the answer they need. The show is re-treading ground. Didn't we have a villain last year who unleashed a new monster every week? Didn't we have a murmuring witch?

 

It's what happens when you take away the urgency and tension from S1 in S2 and then trying to start from scratch again in S3 becoming more proceduralized than before.

[Yolapukka]

 

Watching the episodes back to back has highlighted how repetitive the show is. Every mystery is solved when Abbie has a thought which triggers a memory in Crane which leads him to run to a book and find the answer they need. The show is re-treading ground. Didn't we have a villain last year who unleashed a new monster every week? Didn't we have a murmuring witch?Watching the episodes back to back has highlighted how repetitive the show is. Every mystery is solved when Abbie has a thought which triggers a memory in Crane which leads him to run to a book and find the answer they need. The show is re-treading ground. Didn't we have a villain last year who unleashed a new monster every week? Didn't we have a murmuring witch?

 

 

It's what happens when you take away the urgency and tension from S1 in S2 and then trying to start from scratch again in S3 becoming more proceduralized than before.

 

 

Yeah, I definitely found the structure of the show to be formulaic this season and I didn't like that. It also really showed that they were trying to do a reset and it was not smooth, especially in the initial episodes. They need more crazy, unexpected moments on this show and you don't get that when you tie yourself to the highly visible set formula savinggrace outlined. They also need more inherent humour as written, instead of relying on Tom's wacky faces and Nicole's dismayed eye-rolls to provide lighter moments. One change that was an improvement on Goffman's reductive style was they packed a lot more plot into every episode, though it was a mixed blessing because some moments lacked time to breathe while things were rushing towards the next plot point. I think the show improved by leaps and bounds when they finally dropped the MOW as the central emphasis to focus on the seasonal arc as they closed in on the mid-season finale. I found those episodes hugely satisfying. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by yuggapukka

[Timetoread]

I hate what is about to happen but I am going to come to the defense of the writers.  Narratively I agree with how Abbie is portrayed on this show and I am fine with the fixes that they have offered.  Abbie doesn't have to compete with any of the females on this show, she is awesome enough to carry it as is.  And even though Ichabod and Abbie are equal leads and equal witnesses, the show is not necessarily from equal points of view.  From the very first episode this has been Ichabod's story, from his perspective.  We get snippets of Abbie's life insofar as it informs about the choices she makes and her emotional wellbeing (or lack thereof) and how it ties in to their roles as witnesses.  But really this story is told through the eyes of Ichabod Crane.  And what we see of Abbie is reflective of how Ichabod sees her.  When the story began, she was his everything.  His every action and scene involved her - because he was so out of place and disoriented and she righted him.  Then his wife became available (and this is where the writers lost their way), but a very convincing line of thought would be that to an extent Abbie was sidelined because his wife must take priority.  Had it been written well, this would have been the first half of S2 with the last half illustrating that Ichabod's relationship with Katrina in current times is not the same as he remembered and waxed eloquently about to Yolanda.  He had changed and he had a close relationship with another woman (albeit platonic) that was as important as his own marriage.  Added to that, if written well, Katrina, in reality had NEVER been the woman he thought she was.  She was a witch who used dark arts to do dark things and ended up in purgatory with a demon.  This would lead to her elimination and his "Sophie's Choice".  Alas S2 sucked but we're kind of still in the same place good writing would have put us at.  Leading to...

 

In this season Abbie BEING sexual onscreen is not shown, but we understand from what is shown, again, that Abbie as a sexual woman is both attractive and unforgettable.  Those men always want her back.  We see her sexuality as Crane sees it - sees HER.  Since her "moving on" included involvement with another man, I don't have a problem with him getting a girlfriend.  But the Ichababbie endgame is certainly set up by what has been shown thus far.  I just rewatched the Jack the Ripper episode and took note of the fact that when Crane is down, or unconcious, or sick or needy at all, he calls out to Abbie.  Even in his sleep he is speaking of her.  Very romantic.  As Tom Mison said in an interview, "He's completely in love with her." It will just be a bit of time for him to realize it and for her to accept and reciprocate.

[cynic]

I disagree with your premise that Sleepy Hollow was Crane's story from the beginning. I believe that that the show was more focused on Abbie from the start and not just in her in relation to Crane either. She was a strong character in her own right with a point of view, emotional beats, and arc. We saw her lose her mentor, become a believer, give up her career aspirations, and accept the mantle as witness. We saw her come to terms with her past and regrets, start to make amends with her sister, and begin to open up herself more emotionally and even spiritually. Abbie had way more development in the first half of the season than Crane and her life was given great importance to the plot. Not that Crane wasn't important, but he was the fish out of water and the show lived in Abbie's world, she grounded the show.

It was only after the midway point that Crane took center stage and the flashbacks were given more time/importance and characters from the past started popping up in our time to surround him. That's when we started losing touch with the rest of the police department, the town, and the present in general. And that's when the show stopped working as well for me. I didn't start watching Sleepy Hollow for the historical stuff. I started watching it to see partners fighting the supernatural with the twist that one partner was a historical fish out of water. But then they started to pour that water all over everything and Abbie got drowned in the process.

[Timetoread]

I disagree with your premise that Sleepy Hollow was Crane's story from the beginning. I believe that that the show was more focused on Abbie from the start and not just in her in relation to Crane either. She was a strong character in her own right with a point of view, emotional beats, and arc. We saw her lose her mentor, become a believer, give up her career aspirations, and accept the mantle as witness. We saw her come to terms with her past and regrets, start to make amends with her sister, and begin to open up herself more emotionally and even spiritually. Abbie had way more development in the first half of the season than Crane and her life was given great importance to the plot. Not that Crane wasn't important, but he was the fish out of water and the show lived in Abbie's world, she grounded the show.

It was only after the midway point that Crane took center stage and the flashbacks were given more time/importance and characters from the past started popping up in our time to surround him. That's when we started losing touch with the rest of the police department, the town, and the present in general. And that's when the show stopped working as well for me. I didn't start watching Sleepy Hollow for the historical stuff. I started watching it to see partners fighting the supernatural with the twist that one partner was a historical fish out of water. But then they started to pour that water all over everything and Abbie got drowned in the process.

 

You misunderstood me.  Not Crane's story, as in only about Crane with everybody else in a supporting role, or him being the only important character.  I mean Crane's story as in told narratively through his eyes.  Kind of like Walking Dead - though an ensemble cast - is Rick's story, it began when he woke up, not when the trouble started and it unfolds in his footsteps.  While we may view whole episodes of other characters, we are always, narratively, where Rick is.  This story is ABOUT the witnesses - who they are individually, who they are as a team and their evolution as they head toward their destiny.  But it is, IMO, as experienced by Crane.  We come to know Abbie as he does.  In my romantic opinion (IMRO), it is also about how this man crossed centuries to end up with this very special woman with whom he will, literally, walk into hell. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Timetoread

[Carrie Ann]

I perceive the show as a true two-lead series, but if I see it through anyone's eyes, it's Abbie's. I don't think the show intends Abbie to only be seen through the lens of Crane's perceptions of her, because I don't believe they see Crane as the POV character. I think they both are. But it's interesting that you perceive the opposite!

[Timetoread]

I perceive the show as a true two-lead series, but if I see it through anyone's eyes, it's Abbie's. I don't think the show intends Abbie to only be seen through the lens of Crane's perceptions of her, because I don't believe they see Crane as the POV character. I think they both are. But it's interesting that you perceive the opposite!

 

I"m not pro one over the other per se (nor am I so married to the idea that I will fight to the death over it), I just always saw it as mostly through Ichie, partly TBH because of the way Abbie's story unfolds for us - like his growing discovery of her.  It is not necessarily giving him an edge or a status, it's just how I view it creatively.  Abbie is currently one of my favorite characters on tv, it wasn't intended as a slight against her.

[Carrie Ann]

Okay, gotcha, this part of your initial comment seemed more like a declarative statement than an opinion/interpretation:

From the very first episode this has been Ichabod's story, from his perspective.  We get snippets of Abbie's life insofar as it informs about the choices she makes and her emotional wellbeing (or lack thereof) and how it ties in to their roles as witnesses.  But really this story is told through the eyes of Ichabod Crane.  And what we see of Abbie is reflective of how Ichabod sees her.

My point was just that I just disagree with this, especially insofar as the writers' intent, because I believe they see this as a two-lead show, with two POV characters. But I do think that viewers may see one or the other character as more of their lens to the show. I lean slightly toward Abbie.

 

So if people have complaints about the series w/r/t unequal treatment of Abbie's personal, interior life versus Ichabod's, I would disagree that the show is set up that way, and therefore those discrepancies are to be expected. I think there was an unfortunate shift in focus, especially in S2, that left Abbie out of the picture, and many people are probably still sensitive to any perceived inequities for that reason (among all the social, historical reasons to be sensitive to a black woman getting short shrift in favor of white costars). But I appreciate what you're saying, because I totally understand that Crane feels more like the POV character to many people.

[Free]

 

My point was just that I just disagree with this, especially insofar as the writers' intent, because I believe they see this as a two-lead show, with two POV characters. But I do think that viewers may see one or the other character as more of their lens to the show. I lean slightly toward Abbie.

 

IA, it's a 2 lead show.  Part of the appeal of S1 was their balanced partnership and once they tipped the scales on the Crane family/LI drama, it went messy very fast.

[phoenics]

I believe it's a 2 lead show and I think the way to think of it is that we are seeing Sleepy Hollow and everything happening in it THROUGH Abbie's eyes and that includes Ichabod.

 

Abbie represents the audience.  We see Ichabod through her.

[allyw]

I always thought that Abbie was the pov character which is why the first half of season one worked better than the latter half and season two.

BTW when is the show coming back?

[HalcyonDays]

BTW when is the show coming back?

 

Friday, February 5th, 2016. Timeslot is 8:00 pm now.

[Enero]

Friday, February 5th, 2016. Timeslot is 8:00 pm now.

Thanks! I thought it would be airing at 9:00pm. That's interesting. It won't be competing with Grimm which is probably a good thing.

[Amtosbm]

I loved the show in the first season so much for both leads but especially Abbie. I am not a WOC but she was exactly the type of female protagonist that I enjoy watching; smart, witty, tough yet empathatic. I was drawn in to the whole story. It didn't hurt that the two leads had such wonderful chemistry. Enter season two and I saw it all fall apart. It became the Crane family show and I could give two shits about Katrina or her son. I gave up about the time the demon baby was conceived and Abbie was shown as a third wheel in my opinion. I have all the season three episodes on my computer but can't motivate myself to watch them.  I hate it because I loved this show so much the first season.  Will watching episode one be enough to draw me back in?  Is there enough Abbie and Jenny to make it worth the effort?  I love Crane but I won't watch the show for him alone - I want the sisters as well. I continue to hope the show will be renewed yet I can't seem to watch it.

[Fable]

Whether it is worth the watch, I guess is subjective, but I'm enjoying it.  The first episode of the season, I thought, was a bit boring, but things got progressively better and, yes, plenty of the Mills sisters.  

[jhlipton]

Is there enough Abbie and Jenny to make it worth the effort?  

 

I don't recall how much Jenny is in the first episode, but Abbie is back to ""lead" status and Jenny is back to "main co-star" -- she's in as many scenes as in the first season, if not more.

[netlyon2]

Jenny is definitely a big presence in "I, Witness" (Season 3 Episode 1) and has multiple scenes with both Abbie and Ichabod.  I agree with jhlipton that she is equally as prominent (if not even more prominent) this season in comparison to Season 1.

[Commando Cody]

Considering that we here on this board are kind of small portion of fans, I like to go to the SH Facebook page to see how the total fans are feeling. Generally, if the "this show can do no wrong" fans are unhappy, then things are really pretty bad.

 

Except for the very rare keep Betsey/dump Betsey post, they barely even mention her one way or another. Since they seem to be at a they can take or leave her stage, I'm pretty sure they're going to keep her. There is plenty of Pandora love though. I like the idea of Betsey crumbling into dust as soon and she gets out of the catacombs though.

 

I'm looking at this like there is too much season 2 and the writers didn't learn from the Katrina fiasco. I think their may be some old writers consensus that says it's bad to put the main characters together until the end. Somehow putting the love interests together too soon can ruin the show. My own opinion is that they took it too far with Castle. I didn't find it necessary to keep breaking up Casket, but they are still doing it. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Commando Cody

[phoenics]

I still think Nikki Reed will re-emerge in her own time. She can't go back to Ichabod and Abbie's time. Only reason Ichabod is there is because of the spells and magic the Mason priest and whats her name did.

But I could totally be wrong and you could be right. It's not like this show hasn't been stupid like that before.

[Miss Dee]

I still think Nikki Reed will re-emerge in her own time. She can't go back to Ichabod and Abbie's time. Only reason Ichabod is there is because of the spells and magic the Mason priest and whats her name did.

But I could totally be wrong and you could be right. It's not like this show hasn't been stupid like that before.

Showrunner Clifton Campbell addresses this in his recent Q&A at TV Insider. The link is on the spoiler page. But if anyone just wants to know about this in particular....

...he says there that once in the catacombs, people return to the time from whence they came. Suggesting if Betsy left she'd go back to 1776; Ichabod and Abbie would go back to 2016.

[Frozendiva]

The show derailed with the Katrina fiasco.  The character was a minor plot point and should not have been resurrected. She belonged in the 18th century. The Jeremy story was all kinds of 'no'. John Noble is a good actor, but I liked the whole Headless Horseman far better.  Both Katrina and Jeremy and that tie to Ichabod's past did not work and didn't compel people to tune in.  Betsy Ross seems to be another attempt at a Katrina, but she also doesn't work and doesn't add much to the show's fabric. Maybe she needs to spend more time sewing a better story. The show paid a lot of respect to its forbears - like the X Files - in season one and was a great joy and great fun to watch. Two charming, and interesting leads and a great high concept. A man out of time, a modern woman, a mythology of witnesses to history. Cool.

 

It's also a limited series (limited episodes), with little room for a course correction/story changes until nearer to the end of season. The show runs on borrowed time with no guarantee of renewal, and is not a 'hit'. It's also moved to Friday nights and ratings aren't as good that evening as many shows are timeshifted/DVRed. Many folks don't even watch TV anymore and stream the show from a service or the network's website. Granted, Fox does not have many 'hits' and the show is one of the more expensive ones to produce (unlike some reality/competition type show). So, Sleepy Hollow may get lucky and live to see another season - depending what pilot season has to offer. Don't know if Fox is willing to invest in many new shows right now. I don't know if there is some master plan for the show or if the creators/writers get a good idea and roll with it per season. It's just seemed disjointed and in trying to please everyone, it really isn't pleasing anyone. The audience gets the vote with the remote.

[jhlipton]

I thought Noble as the Sin Eater was good, and even his turn to evil was decent.  But as soon as the made him Crane's son...  Yuck.

[Indi]

There has been so much wrong this season! Since day one Campbell has competed head to head with Goffman for worst thing to ever happen to this show. How could he not? He basically rehashed Goffman's choices, just to prove he could do them better, so basically everything was a 2.0. The thing is, he was doing better. Slightly, so very slightly. Because, let's face it, removing Katrina made everything better, but the basic problems remained and some of them even got worse. One mediocre showrunner replaced a different mediocre one.

 

Until Campbell killed Abbie, after she fulfilled her role of propelling the "better" Witness forward. Yes, let's make Abbie a Magical Negro again and kill her off and if that's not enough, let's kick her in the ovaries and clearly state that women's bodies are interchangeable. I mean, if Nicole's exit wasn't enough to set me free from this show (thank you, Nicole!), how could there be any reason for me to watch a season 4 after that fuckery?

 

In the end, it turned out Campbell is worse than Goffman, because he not only did the whole 2.0 stuff, but he went out of his way to destroy the premise of the show, mess with the timeline and do a hundred retcons, that made no sense. At least, Goffman gave us a decent season finale.

 

There was so much wrong with the S3 finale, wrong and unnecessary, because here is the thing, Abbie's death wasn't the only option. In fact, it was the worst option. Nicole wants out? Fine, write her out. Put Abbie in a different dimension. Send her to the future. Let Ichy continue his journey on his own, but with a clear goal to get her back. If the show is renewed, we see only one Witness doing his thing, get Nicole back for the series finale and reward both the fans and Ichy with an epic reunion. But they are so stupid, so limited, so lacking in the talent department, that death by diminishment of the female lead was their choice.

 

Abbie's death opens another can of worms, because, how on earth can this Witness essence transfer be an option, when the pilot made it clear the individual, the person, THE FREAKING HUMAN, was important. It was that integrated thing, Person As Witness, not Witness In a Person, that made saving Ichy at all costs absolutely necessary. If Abbie's life is expendable, because her essence or soul will go on living in another human, why didn't the same happen to Ichy?

 

Stupid show!

 

[AD55]

Abbie's death opens another can of worms, because, how on earth can this Witness essence transfer be an option, when the pilot made it clear the individual, the person, THE FREAKING HUMAN, was important. It was that integrated thing, Person As Witness, not Witness In a Person, that made saving Ichy at all costs absolutely necessary. If Abbie's life is expendable, because her essence or soul will go on living in another human, why didn't the same happen to Ichy?

 

Stupid show!

 

This. I think of Crane's speech to THO where he talks about what it means to be human. The people he named weren't/aren't interchangeable. Their essence isn't transferable. I have a wretched memory, but my recollection/assumption is that the witnesses had both been on a journey toward one another over the centuries, which wouldn't have been necessary if Crane's essence could have been popped into another body.

 

Why am I looking for consistency in this show? The writers just compose random crap and then forget about it by the next episode.

[Free]

One mediocre showrunner replaced a different mediocre one.

 

This, the problem was never rectified, they just swapped out one for another.

[Sparkling Beth]

In my opinion, where Sleepy Hollow went wrong can be summed up thusly:

 

The writers perceive it as the story of Ichabod Crane and the people who populate his world.  The viewers perceived it as the story of Ichabod Crane and Abbie Mills and the people who populate their world.

 

One could argue that since it is the writers' creation, their perception is the correct one.  But I would argue that there are more of us than there are of them and our vision should have prevailed, especially given the fact that without viewers, the show cannot continue.

[Morrigan2575]

In my opinion, where Sleepy Hollow went wrong can be summed up thusly:

The writers perceive it as the story of Ichabod Crane and the people who populate his world. The viewers perceived it as the story of Ichabod Crane and Abbie Mills and the people who populate their world.

Spot on

[cynic]

In my opinion, where Sleepy Hollow went wrong can be summed up thusly:

 

The writers perceive it as the story of Ichabod Crane and the people who populate his world.  The viewers perceived it as the story of Ichabod Crane and Abbie Mills and the people who populate their world.

 

One could argue that since it is the writers' creation, their perception is the correct one.  But I would argue that there are more of us than there are of them and our vision should have prevailed, especially given the fact that without viewers, the show cannot continue.

 

I would argue that the original creators envisioned the show the way we view it. The pilot and first half of season one clearly showed Abbie as just as important as Crane. It was when the creators relinquished control to the business as usual Hollywood showrunners that it changed. The show never recovered. 

[jhlipton]

Stupid show!

 

 

I have not often agreed with you, but now I see that you were right.  I am so mad!!! (Not about agreeing with you -- I have no problem with that -- but about this once-brilliant show.)

[catrox14]

You know.  I'm even more annoyed with Abbie's exit.

 

I suspected back when they did the crossover this was setting up something else down the road so to me they knew at the crossover she wanted out. T

 

hey did not have to rewrite the Two Witnesses lore to move SH into a procedural. They just needed to have Abbie and Ichabod say 'I love you to each other ONE FUCKING TIME' Abbie dies. Ichabod can't take being in SH without her so he accepts a job at the Jeffersonian and works with the Bones team and then they can have their boring ass procedural instead of the fun romp we had in s1. 

[catrox14]

 

This. I think of Crane's speech to THO where he talks about what it means to be human. The people he named weren't/aren't interchangeable. Their essence isn't transferable. I have a wretched memory, but my recollection/assumption is that the witnesses had both been on a journey toward one another over the centuries, which wouldn't have been necessary if Crane's essence could have been popped into another body.

 

The entire PREMISE of Sleepy Hollow with Abbie and Ichabod is built from their relationship as the Two Witnesses.  They were only two people who can stop the Apocalypse.  There was no ambiguity.  They weren't Two of Ten. They were THE Two Witnesses. There was no "one guides the other" or one is meant for greater things but the other is not. They had to do it together. They had to be partners.

 

I'm trying to think of any show that completely retcon'd the premise of it's own show just to kill off a character.

 

I thought Dexter being a lumberjack was bad, but this ...might be worse.  

[arjumand]

The entire PREMISE of Sleepy Hollow with Abbie and Ichabod is built from their relationship as the Two Witnesses.  They were only two people who can stop the Apocalypse.  There was no ambiguity.  They weren't Two of Ten. They were THE Two Witnesses. There was no "one guides the other" or one is meant for greater things but the other is not. They had to do it together. They had to be partners.

 

I'm trying to think of any show that completely retcon'd the premise of it's own show just to kill off a character.

 

I thought Dexter being a lumberjack was bad, but this ...might be worse.  

 

This. So very much.

 

I remember, long ago, when I used to be into the X-Files, and I think Krycek made the comment, "These people - they're making it up as they go along." And we in the X-Files fandom used to joke that the comment was incredibly meta, and referred to Chris Carter and Co.

 

Imagine my horror when, years later, Sleepy Hollow gets the same comment - I read it on Io9, and I'm not sure when (but I'm pretty sure it was in the first season, when we'd met Katrina the Enormously Cleavaged Quaker, but still had no idea of the way she'd end up eating the show), but there was a clear BTS indication that they really had no idea in what direction to go.

 

And this makes me sad. And angry. And I really want to reach through my screen and bitchslap the next person who goes "But she waaaanted to leave!" I love reading the posts on "Ask a manager", which are all about employment problems, etc. One of the things I learned about was the term "constructive dismissal", which is when an employee resigns after the employer has created a hostile work environment, making it impossible to continue. Ring any bells?

 

The thing which makes me angriest is making NB complicit in this whole "Abbie was only ever the Magical Negro, guys. Maybe her soul can go into another one" business, which she has to be, if she ever wants to work in this town again, amirite.

[Sparkling Beth]

You know.  I'm even more annoyed with Abbie's exit.

 

I suspected back when they did the crossover this was setting up something else down the road so to me they knew at the crossover she wanted out. T

 

hey did not have to rewrite the Two Witnesses lore to move SH into a procedural. They just needed to have Abbie and Ichabod say 'I love you to each other ONE FUCKING TIME' Abbie dies. Ichabod can't take being in SH without her so he accepts a job at the Jeffersonian and works with the Bones team and then they can have their boring ass procedural instead of the fun romp we had in s1. 

I actually had the Crane-goes-to-Bones thought too.  I know it's basically a stupid idea, but I'm going to miss Crane (and Mison's handsome face) if SH gets cancelled or continues but is unwatchable for me because of the way this season ended.  If I were in charge and decided to put Crane in the Bones world, I'd almost completely ignore his origins and treat him like a regular character, except for just a hint now and then that there is something decidedly different about Mr. Ichabod Crane.

[netlyon2]

They did not have to rewrite the Two Witnesses lore to move SH into a procedural. They just needed to have Abbie and Ichabod say 'I love you to each other ONE FUCKING TIME' Abbie dies. Ichabod can't take being in SH without her so he accepts a job at the Jeffersonian and works with the Bones team and then they can have their boring ass procedural instead of the fun romp we had in s1. 

I'm growing convinced that this finale was very strategically crafted to maximize Crane's potential manpain (yep, we're back to that term) while portraying Abbie as an ice-queen and avoiding a clear and unequivocal declaration of Crane's feelings.

• Multiple characters tell Crane that he loves Abbie.  While he doesn't deny these claims, he also doesn't confirm them or make an actual declaration to Abbie, even in their last moments together.
• Meanwhile, they not only avoid having Abbie respond to--or even acknowledge--Ichabod's unspoken declarations of love, they double-down on the Danabbie by having her list Reynolds when she is talking to Corbin about how she's ready to move on because she's had closure on the important things.

 

Why do this?  Well, now if there's a Season 4, they have a whole storyline already set up about how Ichabod will try to find the new Second Witness and this time, he'll make his feelings known.  However, they don't have to deal with any awkward memories of an actual declaration or consummation with Abbie. 

 

Tl;dr:  just another way to minimize Abbie, her status as the core of the show, and her importance to Ichabod.

 

And this makes me sad. And angry. And I really want to reach through my screen and bitchslap the next person who goes "But she waaaanted to leave!" I love reading the posts on "Ask a manager", which are all about employment problems, etc. One of the things I learned about was the term "constructive dismissal", which is when an employee resigns after the employer has created a hostile work environment, making it impossible to continue. Ring any bells?

 

The thing which makes me angriest is making NB complicit in this whole "Abbie was only ever the Magical Negro, guys. Maybe her soul can go into another one" business, which she has to be, if she ever wants to work in this town again, amirite.

Thank you!  Maybe it's because I've seen this done to a coworker ("You can either accept this completely trumped-up and unwarranted notice of concern in your file or turn in your resignation."), but that was my immediate thought.  It's also like a relationship where one person doesn't want to be the one to officially end things, so they either passively refuse to treat their partner well or they actively drive their partner away.

 

My next thought was that we all know how Nicole was treated last season and that this season still had some lingering issues (starting with SBR).  My third thought was that they said Orlando was willing to leave as well.  O.o

 

Unfortunately, I think we'll also see that this will unleash a world of hate from Tom Mison fans, who will rail against NB if the show isn't renewed or if ratings plummet next season.  They'll blame her rather than the showrunners, which I think we've already seen start to happen.

[Dizzychickstar]

Yep. As though her decision to leave meant the finale had to be written this way. In all worlds, in all iterations of potential finales, I'd be devestated by Abbie's death. But there is a way to kill off a character(if you must) that makes it satisfying and sensical for the viewer. This ending for Abbie doesn't do that, at least not for me. The options for closing this season and setting up for a potential s4 while respecting Abbie's character are limitless. Limitless. And this is what they come up with...

[Three]

The options for closing this season and setting up for a potential s4 while respecting Abbie's character are limitless. Limitless. And this is what they come up with...

 

I wish I could thumbs up this more than once. The suggestion of a Bones/procedural/Crane mashup is doing my head in. Run Mison run. Go back and do some theater in London and some quality drama/comedy on the BBC. Have a happy, creative life. It's not worth the money.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Three

[Julia]

You know, if they handed the whole thing over to the creative staff of, say, iZombie I would watch the hell out of that.

[cynic]

I don't know about that. iZombie hasn't had the best track record handling black females.

.....

Thank you!  Maybe it's because I've seen this done to a coworker ("You can either accept this completely trumped-up and unwarranted notice of concern in your file or turn in your resignation."), but that was my immediate thought.  It's also like a relationship where one person doesn't want to be the one to officially end things, so they either passively refuse to treat their partner well or they actively drive their partner away.

 

My next thought was that we all know how Nicole was treated last season and that this season still had some lingering issues (starting with SBR).  My third thought was that they said Orlando was willing to leave as well.  O.o

 

Unfortunately, I think we'll also see that this will unleash a world of hate from Tom Mison fans, who will rail against NB if the show isn't renewed or if ratings plummet next season.  They'll blame her rather than the showrunners, which I think we've already seen start to happen.

Yeah, plenty of people will latch on to "well, she wanted to leave" to excuse the show's decisions and terrible writing without taking into consideration WHY she would have wanted to leave and despite not even knowing if that is true or just Hollywood spin. Some will even try to blame Nicole and start rumors about her behavior to justify the writers or in some kinda misguided attempt to support Tom. They might even start talking about Nicole's fans like they weren't good enough fans or were watching it wrong. It's not farfetched. The show's always had its apologists.

[Julia]

I don't know about that. iZombie hasn't had the best track record handling black females.

Oh dear. You're absolutely right. I was thinking Ravi and Clive, but I forgot about BLM lady. Never mind.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Julia

[LeeLeePanda]

One of the weirdest things about all of this is finding out that I know people who have either worked with Nicole Beharie or worked on the Sleepy Hollow set. Most of them have great things to say about her. Some of my friends were supposed to go visit the set this fall. I'll have to dig around and see if anyone has some dirt on what went down.

I just did the Project Fox survey. I wish Howlers existed in real life, because they just got the written version of one.

Edited April 9, 2016 by LeeLeePanda

[HalcyonDays]

One of the weirdest things about all of this is finding out that I know people who have either worked with Nicole Beharie or worked on the Sleepy Hollow set. Most of them have great things to say about her. Some of my friends were supposed to go visit the set this fall. I'll have to dig around and see if anyone has some dirt on what went down.

 

And make sure you post it here ASAP. Right now, it's all spin. But like with Orlando, we'll start finding out the real truth in a few months - I hope.

[Three]

Sorry. Needed to get this out. It really is doing my head in.

 

WRITERS: Writing for witnesses is haard. I can’t keep all the story straight.

TPTB: And apocalypses are expensive. And costumes. Also Georgia.

WRITERS: Stupid viewers. What do they know?

TPTB: It’s all got a bit out of hand and uncomfortable. I’m not sure why. Just- something’s not right.
Let’s get back to basics. What have we got? A guy. Fish out of water… he’s good looking, but not in a modern way. A hot Brit.

WRITERS: Chicks love hot Brits. 

TPTB: With great manners. Like, what was that show? Forever. He’ll be really smart – and a gentleman. Get rid of most of the monsters, we’ll take him to DC.

WRITERS: It will be crazy! All the stuff he doesn’t know about. Elections, traffic, parties with hot chicks. Science.

TPTB: And we’ll give him a sidekick, but-  No. Too risky. We’ll give him a male sidekick. Maybe we can get in Hodges from Bones. We do need a woman. Jenny can pop in and out. But let’s make a female detective as well. You know the type. There, Now we’ve got lots of women.

WRITERS: Look. Let’s be really different. Let’s make her really hot, but she doesn’t know it. Like she’s all business. But she’s a goddess. But like it’s platonic.  They solve crimes together each week.

TPTB: And they won’t love each other, because he’s in pain. But there will be something. But let’s streamline our casting a bit. Someone who- Again, I can’t put my finger on it.

WRITER: I think I’ve got you. And, yes, PAIN. Because he lost someone he loved but it’ll just be there. And all these women will keep throwing themselves at him. But he’s in pain.

TPTB: Yeah, but he can sleep with them! He’s not a monk. But he can’t commit. But he’s got great manners so they don’t mind.

WRITERS: This is BRILLIANT.

[MizArk]

Three, you just won the internets for me today. I am so positive that is exactly what was said -- are you sure you weren't there?

 

Really kinda wishing I hadn't started watching Lucifer this season on Fox and absolutely fallen in love with it. God only knows (pun intended) what they'll do to it in season 2.