S01.E16: Heart of Darkness

[Zuleikha]

This episode was so good! I feel like I've been on a roller coaster since What Happened to Frederick. It's all been "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" quality (okay, maybe not "Dreamy" but I enjoyed it as a sweet bit of froth) and it is SO hard not to just binge watch to the end.

 

No one tell me for real but maybe please subtly hint that Kathryn isn't really dead. Regina had Graham's heart with Graham alive. It's possible that Kathryn's just captured, right?

 

I can't believe David would think even for a second that Mary Margaret might have killed Kathryn in such a brutal fashion. First, Mary Margaret is the least likely person to snap in a murderous way like that and second, she didn't even have a motive. She was the one who dumped David, and on top of that, she knew Kathryn and David were broken up! David also doesn't have a good eye for detail or he may have questioned why his woods memory had Mary Margaret with much longer hair and a Renaissance Faire type of outfit. At least I liked Charming better.

 

I may finally have to give up being Team Regina now that the fairy tale elements are feeling more real than the Stars Hollows-esque elements, but the show keeps giving me hope for eventual Regina redemption with their "evil isn't born but made" throwaway lines (because it it can be made, it can be unmade). Maybe Emma will break the curse by leading Regina to a moment of self-sacrifice for Henry in which she breaks the curse for him. Maybe? It could happen. After all, if Ben Linus can be considered redeemed, surely Regina can get redemption, too! 

Edited November 6, 2014 by Zuleikha

[regularlyleaded]

No one tell me for real but maybe please subtly hint that Kathryn isn't really dead.

Okay, how's this: She's Schrödinger's cat; she is both dead and alive at the same time. If you don't look she'll continue to stay alive.... and dead. ;)

 

ETA: Also, kudos to your self-control. At this point in S1, had the show been available back in the day for Netflix binge watching I would've totally indulged and watched them all in one go.

Edited November 6, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Camera One]

it is SO hard not to just binge watch to the end.

 

I noticed this too when marathoning Season 1 with a friend.  Each episode seems to lead directly to the next one, since so little time passes between many of them... it was so easy to continue directly to the next one!  

Edited November 6, 2014 by Camera One

[legaleagle53]

No one tell me for real but maybe please subtly hint that Kathryn isn't really dead. Regina had Graham's heart with Graham alive. It's possible that Kathryn's just captured, right?

  

OK.  ;-)

[KAOS Agent]

I'm almost certain something really tragic happened to Kathryn.

 

I would have loved this episode so much more if we'd gotten more of Dark Snow White. I loved her in the iconic dress trying to kill the bluebird and making Happy cry. Her little shrug of indifference was so much fun. If they wanted to do a flashback episode that was just Snow White acting all dark and making fun of perky, annoyingly optimistic people like she usually is, I'd take it.

[Zuleikha]

Also, kudos to your self-control.

 

 

I have a small child, so unfortunately limited time for binge watching. 

 

I would have loved this episode so much more if we'd gotten more of Dark Snow White.

 

Yeah, I thought Ginnifer Goodwin did a great job with those scenes. She kept them funny but with just the right underlying note of this-is-a-tragic-thing-that's-happened-to-Snow. My husband and I were debating whether it was a good thing that Charming stopped her, but if killing Regina with the arrow really would have made her as evil as Regina, I think it was for the best. Evil Queen Snow may even be more terrifying than Regina!

[KingOfHearts]

The scene with Memoryless!Snow singing to the birds is one of my favorite scenes in the show. 

Snow being "dark" if she kills Regina is morally wonky. The show was effectively saying she'd become as bad as Regina if she killed her. But the funny thing is Snow acts more human when she's supposedly devoid of the love in her heart. She should be pissed at Regina for stealing her throne, terrorizing her people, and repeatedly attempting to murder her over something stupid. Is that really wrong? It also comes across as Snow can't function as a decent human being without memories of her man. Without Charming, she's a narcissistic bitch? As romantic as it was for Charming to take the arrow for her, the flashbacks sure foreshadow the Church of A&E.

I actually really like the interactions between Charming and Rumple. Rumple pretending to be pissed that Charming left King George and hurt Snow is some of his classic manipulation. He executes plenty of plays in this episode for his grand scheme, which is fun to rewatch. "It's quite drafty in here" is a funny line when it has Carlyle's delivery.

Spoiler

Thankfully, things finally start to heat up again in the next episode. This is the last of the "mid-season slog" episodes.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The scene with Memoryless!Snow singing to the birds is one of my favorite scenes in the show. 

Snow being "dark" if she kills Regina is morally wonky. The show was effectively saying she'd become as bad as Regina if she killed her. But the funny thing is Snow acts more human when she's supposedly devoid of the love in her heart. She should be pissed at Regina for stealing her throne, terrorizing her people, and repeatedly attempting to murder her over something stupid. Is that really wrong? It also comes across as Snow can't function as a decent human being without memories of her man. Without Charming, she's a narcissistic bitch? As romantic as it was for Charming to take the arrow for her, the flashbacks sure foreshadow the Church of A&E.

I actually really like the interactions between Charming and Rumple. Rumple pretending to be pissed that Charming left King George and hurt Snow is some of his classic manipulation. He executes plenty of plays in this episode for his grand scheme, which is fun to rewatch. "It's quite drafty in here" is a funny line when it has Carlyle's delivery.

  Hide contents

Thankfully, things finally start to heat up again in the next episode. This is the last of the "mid-season slog" episodes.

She really was. It was so nice to see Snow angry. She should be angry. For everything that Regina did to her and put her through. And at this point she still doesn't know why Regina did all this to her. I cheered when she said she was going to go kill the Queen. It was really awesome to think she really was. I love Rumple's reaction to Snow telling him what she wanted to do. It makes no sense for his plan to have Regina cast the curse. But it was fun. For a second it really seemed like two people really wanted the Evil Queen dead. Which is a normal reaction. Then pretending to be concerned about Snow when Charming came. I love the scene with Charming jumping in front of the arrow even though it makes no sense. Killing the person who murdered your father, stole your throne, terrorized your people and tried to murder you repeatedly does not make you evil. It stinks that it only happened because she drank a potion. Why couldn't she feel those things? That would be normal.  Plus it would be kind of fun to have Snow at least trying to be proactive by trying to kill the Queen. I like the hair part at the end that Rumple put into a potion jar and it looking like DNA.  

I loved the scene in the beginning with the happy music and Snow behaving like Snow White and then trying to kill the bird. It was so funny. So was the intervention. I wish they had done more stuff like this. It was fun and interesting. 

[companionenvy]

Agreed. Depending on your morality, there may be a case to be made that killing Regina is still the wrong thing to do (though I disagree), but it is a perspective that needs to be taken seriously and not demonized, or delegitimized as the result of a memory-warping curse. We don't have the full picture of what Regina's been up to as queen at this point, but Snow knows by now that this woman engineered her father's death, usurped her throne, and is trying to kill her. Wanting to kill Regina first is a totally understandable reaction, not a sign that Snow is dangerously off the rails.

I also really hate the plot with Regina framing Mary Margaret, which is simply unpleasant and frustrating without any redeeming features. I think cursed SB scenes work best when the tension operates on a somewhat more realistic level. Ashley being pressured to give up her baby, Nicholas and Ava fearing separation in foster care, David being trapped in a marriage to someone he doesn't love, and, of course, Emma trying to reconnect with her biological son despite opposition from his chilly adoptive mom are all within the realm of real world problems and emotional dynamics, even if some of the details are exaggerated by the unusual circumstances. Like, yes the fact that Rumple sets a fire to set up Emma as a hero isn't exactly normal SOP, but the basic premise -- the newcomer running for office against the mayor's hand-picked candidate, and deciding whether she's going to play dirty politics or not -- still holds up, even without Emma or anyone else actually knowing who Regina and Rumple really are and why they're doing what they're doing. 

But framing a totally innocent woman for murder is so extreme and -- for someone who doesn't know about the real backstory -- so inexplicable that it jars with the usual tone of the present day scenes and just comes off as emotional torture. There's no way that Mary Margaret or David or even Emma can really respond adequately to what is going on, because they are so out of their element - from their perspective, they've basically been launched into a Kafkaesque horrorscape. And there are shows in which that might work, but I don't think Once is one of them. 

[Shanna Marie]

I almost couldn't get through this one. I had to do some Internet surfing while I was watching so I wouldn't throw things at the screen. I have this weird hot button from frame-up stories and institutional injustice, so any kind of frame-up involving someone with the government gets really uncomfortable for me (I have no idea why -- it's not like it's anything that's ever happened to me, but I've had issues with this kind of story since I was a kid). It's so hard to watch Mary Margaret be falsely accused when Regina holds all the cards and Emma doesn't even realize what game she's playing because she's trying to function like all this is normal.

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But framing a totally innocent woman for murder is so extreme and -- for someone who doesn't know about the real backstory -- so inexplicable that it jars with the usual tone of the present day scenes and just comes off as emotional torture. There's no way that Mary Margaret or David or even Emma can really respond adequately to what is going on, because they are so out of their element - from their perspective, they've basically been launched into a Kafkaesque horrorscape.

That's a lot of what I struggle with in watching it, that it's sheer horror, and they have no idea why this is going on since they have no memories of the feud with Regina. I do have to wonder how David got the false memories of the conversations with Kathryn and Mary Margaret when magic isn't functional. The original cursed identity could have been built into the curse, but how did this stuff come about? It's even harder for me to watch this now because ...

Spoiler

We know that there are never any consequences to Regina for all this. She pins the crime on Sidney, and he's the one who gets locked up. She doesn't pay for it at all, and Snow doesn't seem to hold it against her. She framed Snow for murder and tried to arrange the murder of a totally innocent woman just so she could frame Snow for the crime of killing her, and it's never brought up and no one seems to care.

I do kind of like the backstory part just because cursed Snow is so entertaining. Oddly, she actually comes across as more "normal" since she's reacting the way most people would.

23 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Snow being "dark" if she kills Regina is morally wonky. The show was effectively saying she'd become as bad as Regina if she killed her.

It's what I think of as Return of the Jedi morality -- if Luke kills the Emperor in order to save himself, his sister, his friends, and the galaxy, it will forever send him to the dark side. But when Darth Vader kills the Emperor in anger to save his son, it redeems him. Killing Regina could be considered self defense. Murdering the king is a capital crime, so killing her could be considered justice. And then there's her impact on the kingdom. It's ridiculous that killing Regina would somehow forever send Snow to the Dark Side or that it requires a memory warping curse to make her angry about what Regina has done to her.

Still, the intervention is fun, and I enjoy Snow getting to be a badass and Charming being all heroic.

I continue to have questions about the Black Knights. The one Snow attacked seems to be fully siding with Regina against Snow, but was capable of betraying Regina, which suggests that he's not just with her because she has his heart (you'd think the ones who had their hearts ripped out would be forced to die rather than betray her). He recognized Snow, probably from the posters, but didn't seem to know her, and she didn't know him. So where is Regina getting her recruits? From other kingdoms? Were there that many people in their kingdom who hated Snow and her father enough to go to work for Regina and side with her?

[daxx]

As had been said the wonky morality makes this harder to rewatch. But I do love the scene where Charming jumps in front of the arrow and Snow says “no ones been willing to die for me”. Also enjoy the scene with Emma and Henry and the skeleton keys at the loft.

It is a tough position David is in when he gets the flashback to the scene in the woods where Snow was trying to kill Regina. You really can’t blame him for doubting in this particular situation. Having actual memories makes it different then when she supported David.

Spoiler

Once again the knife hidden in the loft is a stretch, how would she know anyone would even look there? 

Who’s heart was it anyway? And how did Regina get a real heart, a non glowy one I mean.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, daxx said:

Also enjoy the scene with Emma and Henry and the skeleton keys at the loft.

I'm honestly surprised Emma didn't question the skeleton keys more. She knew Regina had them in her office. What were they? Where did they come from? If they didn't open random doors throughout town, what did they open? 

[andromeda331]

31 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm honestly surprised Emma didn't question the skeleton keys more. She knew Regina had them in her office. What were they? Where did they come from? If they didn't open random doors throughout town, what did they open? 

Me too. Again it would be nice if Emma was noting all these weird things she keeps coming across. She could add the keys to her list of things she's investigating. What happened to Graham, where Kathryn came from, where Kathryn is now. Its insane to think someone like Emma would look at all those keys and not do anything about them. Not wonder why Regina has them and what they go too. It makes no sense.   

[profdanglais]

5 hours ago, daxx said:

You really can’t blame him for doubting in this particular situation

Oh, I can blame him. Didn't it occur to him that "Mary Margaret" from his "memories" had long hair and was dressed oddly? The fact that he's been having blackouts and trouble with his memories should mean that he questions the memories when they don't jive with his experiences, not the other way around. He believed the weird, dodgy memory completely and dismissed what he knew about Mary Margaret, whom he is supposed to love. David is a dick, and I think again in this episode the show makes a point of that, and of how different Charming is under the curse. 

[KingOfHearts]

5 hours ago, profdanglais said:

Oh, I can blame him. Didn't it occur to him that "Mary Margaret" from his "memories" had long hair and was dressed oddly? The fact that he's been having blackouts and trouble with his memories should mean that he questions the memories when they don't jive with his experiences, not the other way around. He believed the weird, dodgy memory completely and dismissed what he knew about Mary Margaret, whom he is supposed to love. David is a dick, and I think again in this episode the show makes a point of that, and of how different Charming is under the curse. 

It honestly sounds like David was being wishy-washy and needed an excuse to go one way or the other. He used Mary Margaret as a scapegoat.

[daxx]

Oh he was obviously being wishy washy, but considering his curse persona and the weird memories I can see why he’d be torn about MM’s innocence.

[Shanna Marie]

17 hours ago, daxx said:

It is a tough position David is in when he gets the flashback to the scene in the woods where Snow was trying to kill Regina.

Oh, duh, that's what was happening rather than Regina feeding him fake memories of conversations he had in Storybrooke, and ditto with what he heard that was a conversation with Abigail, not Kathryn. I said I wasn't paying attention, but boy, I can't believe that went right over my head. Still, you'd think he'd have had some pretty shocking visuals to go with hearing those voices, with "Kathryn" and "Mary Margaret" dressed entirely differently and with totally different hair. Or did he only get the soundtrack from the memories and not the visuals?

[CCTC]

15 hours ago, profdanglais said:

David is a dick, and I think again in this episode the show makes a point of that, and of how different Charming is under the curse. 

David Nolan pretty much

Spoiler

disappeared after the curse was broken and David pretty much became Prince David Charming -- whereas for some reason Snow White became more like Mary Margret.  David pretty much reverted to his EF persona and Snow -- not so much.

[tennisgurl]

I love pissed off Snow, she kind of rocks. Being a jerk to the dwarfs isnt cool, but I cant blame her for wanting to kill Regina. Like, you can make the case that her killing Regina for revenge (for killing her father, usurping her throne, trying to murder her, terrorizing her people, etc.) is morally wrong, but acting like striking against her is just the Worst Idea Ever is just so weird. Even beyond killing her, does no one want to talk about getting rid of this horrible murderous dictator? No one talked about that until Snow decided to find her man? 

Anyway, I do like the EF flashbacks this episode. The intervention with Jiminy and the dwarfs was fun, as was Snow and the bird, Snow being a badass, Charming being a classic hero type, Red and Charming friendship, and Red using her wolf powers to fight off the goons. 

The Storeybrooke stuff is just depressing though. Regina is full tilt smug at this point, and her going on about how Snow/MM is so evil and guilty is just freaking rich. And of course Regina makes people leave their busy lives to stand around bowing to her whole she soaks up their fear, feeding her bloated ego. 

Spoiler

What makes this all worse is when we know why Regina hates Snow so much and thinks she is just so evil, and is going on about how now SHE knows what its like to be betrayed or to lose someone, when the reason behind this is so STUPID. Its such a lame reason to have this massive vendetta, that i would almost think that it was only later that they figured out the reason she hates Snow, except its only, like, two episodes from now when we get the backstory! 

[Rumsy4]

On 7/22/2018 at 6:13 PM, Shanna Marie said:

 and ditto with what he heard that was a conversation with Abigail, not Kathryn.

Oh, wow. I didn't get this part until now. heh. If David didn't really make that phone call, how did Regina manipulate the phone records? Was it just some good old editing?

This is only the third time Snow and David met, and they had a TLK.

Spoiler

I guess falling in True Love after a bicycle ride and a walk in the woods is not too much of a stretch, after all. But none of the couples who had a True Love's Kiss in this Show have been as utterly convincing as Snowing. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

If David didn't really make that phone call, how did Regina manipulate the phone records? Was it just some good old editing?

Considering that Regina was printing them out on her office printer, I suspect there was some editing. She might have got the real records, since they did seem to reflect reality, for the most part, but there was probably some typing or pasting to create the fake phone call. If Emma had gone straight to the phone company with a warrant, she might have received something different (or might not, since Regina was pulling the strings, but at least Emma wouldn't have looked so dumb).

And you've got to wonder what the point of faking the records to make David look bad was

Spoiler

Considering that Regina's real plan was to frame Mary Margaret.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

And you've got to wonder what the point of faking the records to make David look bad was

  Hide contents

Considering that Regina's real plan was to frame Mary Margaret.

Spoiler

Good point. Looks like it was just there for the audience twist. The bad writing patterns were established in Season 1.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 7/22/2018 at 5:40 AM, profdanglais said:

Oh, I can blame him. Didn't it occur to him that "Mary Margaret" from his "memories" had long hair and was dressed oddly? The fact that he's been having blackouts and trouble with his memories should mean that he questions the memories when they don't jive with his experiences, not the other way around. He believed the weird, dodgy memory completely and dismissed what he knew about Mary Margaret, whom he is supposed to love. David is a dick, and I think again in this episode the show makes a point of that, and of how different Charming is under the curse. 

Have just started watching this over the past few days, and reading along to some of the reactions, and this is as far as I've gotten so far. 

It may be a minor quibble, but I have to say that I can actually understand those differences in hair/dress, etc,  not really registering with him when the memory is in that sort of flashback mode. Even just watching this show in normal time, I find that I often have to pay extra close attention at the beginning of a scene because my mind tends to filter out anything peripheral to the actual features of any given character to the point that I don't automatically figure out which world we are in just based on dress and hair. I need a bit of extra context. I mean, that's just me, but there's no reason that another character in the storyline might not have a similar characteristic and only recognize the person without necessarily registering styles...

My fetish for features is especially focused on teeth, which I sometimes find the best way of figuring out who someone is if I can't quite recognize them otherwise. I always find it kind of distracting, for example, when watching scenes with Rumplestiltskin back in the fairytale realm, because it's so obvious that he is wearing fake teeth in the front, since every time you can get a glimpse back to his premolars, they are quite white. Except for that one gold tooth he has a bit back on the bottom left, which may or may not be genuine. I can see them adding that detail in for Mr Gold even if the actor did not have it.

Anyway....enough of me geeking out...I'm looking forward to following the rest of the show here.

[Shanna Marie]

On 6/9/2020 at 7:46 PM, Jynnan tonnix said:

It may be a minor quibble, but I have to say that I can actually understand those differences in hair/dress, etc,  not really registering with him when the memory is in that sort of flashback mode.

Yeah, I can get him being confused. I generally don't remember specifics about clothes or hair in my memory mental images, unless there was something really striking about it at the time that gave the clothes particular meaning. Like, I might remember what someone else was wearing at a special occasion. I think my memories aren't so much visual as they are about my feelings and experiences. I remember what I thought about the person and how I felt, not really what they looked like, unless I had feelings about how they looked. TV memories aren't at all accurate to the way real memories work. We see an objective scene as viewers, but that's not what you really see in your head when you remember. For one thing, TV flashbacks are almost never in first-person perspective. We see the scene with the person remembering as a character, from outside their body. That's not how they'd remember that, watching themselves do something.

On 6/9/2020 at 7:46 PM, Jynnan tonnix said:

Anyway....enough of me geeking out...I'm looking forward to following the rest of the show here.

Hi! Welcome! Please do join in the conversation. It's fun revisiting the older episodes.