The Relationships of Sleepy Hollow: "I'm Not A Stranger to Complications"

[Limelight]

When Sheriff Reyes took over for Capt. Irving, they mentioned that she knew Abbie's mother. Was it as friends? arresting officer? I thought something would come of that, like she knew about the whole Moloch and Headless stuff through Abbie's mom and would help or be a support system for Abbie and Jenny. Was it ever mentioned that Sheriff Reyes knew about the supernatural stuff or talked about it with Abbie?

So much of this season has been a blur to me since I haven't been paying too much attention but I usually try to focus on the Mills family stuff and I can't remember if Abbie and Reyes had any conversation about her mother.

[Enero]

When Sheriff Reyes took over for Capt. Irving, they mentioned that she knew Abbie's mother. Was it as friends? arresting officer? I thought something would come of that, like she knew about the whole Moloch and Headless stuff through Abbie's mom and would help or be a support system for Abbie and Jenny. Was it ever mentioned that Sheriff Reyes knew about the supernatural stuff or talked about it with Abbie?

So much of this season has been a blur to me since I haven't been paying too much attention but I usually try to focus on the Mills family stuff and I can't remember if Abbie and Reyes had any conversation about her mother.

They never did anything significant with this. The only thing we learned was that she testified against Abbie and Jenny's mom in court which caused them to be removed from the home and the mom to be put in a mental institution.

I'm really disappointed with how the show has handled Abbie's relationship with Frank. He took one for the team, by confessing to killing the two possessed cops and was placed in a mental institution where Abbie said was the perfect place for him to be because he'd be easily accessible. Well her and Crane tried to see him one time, found out Henry had blocked direct contact with him, then we never saw her try again until she needed his help on the case.

When he escaped the mental hospital it was the same thing. She gave him a ride, but again had no use for him until they needed to take down the Horseman of War. She mourned his "death" but when he came back she shunned him like he was the walking plague. I understand her need to be cautious considering all the betrayals she (and Crane) had experienced from those who they thought were on their side. However, I didn't understand her not giving him a second look, until she again needed something, after questioning him about his ressurrection. Frank has asked for her help numerous times throughout the season and she ignored him. Again, I understand her need to be cautious, but Frank did a lot to help her (and Crane) in the past and deserved loyalty from her on some level. I'm not saying she should've had blind faith in the fact that he wasn't evil, but she should've at least been trying to help him get his soul back from Moloch/Henry while he was in the mental institution and when he returned from the dead tried to help him figure out why he was back. The latter could've been two-fold not only could she have been trying to help Frank, but also help herself by finding out if Moloch/Henry's agenda still including him.

Though a lot of the above can be attributed to horrible writing, I do think there is some consistency here with Abbie's character. This situation is reminding me of Abbie abandoning Jenny when they were kids and not backing up her story (understandably) about Moloch.

However, I thought Abbie and Frank's relationship was stronger than this. I'm very disappointed to see that it isn't.

[DJG1122]

They never did anything significant with this. The only thing we learned was that she testified against Abbie and Jenny's mom in court which caused them to be removed from the home and the mom to be put in a mental institution.

I'm really disappointed with how the show has handled Abbie's relationship with Frank. He took one for the team, by confessing to killing the two possessed cops and was placed in a mental institution where Abbie said was the perfect place for him to be because he'd be easily accessible. Well her and Crane tried to see him one time, found out Henry had blocked direct contact with him, then we never saw her try again until she needed his help on the case.

When he escaped the mental hospital it was the same thing. She gave him a ride, but again had no use for him until they needed to take down the Horseman of War. She mourned his "death" but when he came back she shunned him like he was the walking plague. I understand her need to be cautious considering all the betrayals she (and Crane) had experienced from those who they thought were on their side. However, I didn't understand her not giving him a second look, until she again needed something, after questioning him about his ressurrection. Frank has asked for her help numerous times throughout the season and she ignored him. Again, I understand her need to be cautious, but Frank did a lot to help her (and Crane) in the past and deserved loyalty from her on some level. I'm not saying she should've had blind faith in the fact that he wasn't evil, but she should've at least been trying to help him get his soul back from Moloch/Henry while he was in the mental institution and when he returned from the dead tried to help him figure out why he was back. The latter could've been two-fold not only could she have been trying to help Frank, but also help herself by finding out if Moloch/Henry's agenda still including him.

Though a lot of the above can be attributed to horrible writing, I do think there is some consistency here with Abbie's character. This situation is reminding me of Abbie abandoning Jenny when they were kids and not backing up her story (understandably) about Moloch.

However, I thought Abbie and Frank's relationship was stronger than this. I'm very disappointed to see that it isn't.

More focus on Abbie's relationship with Frank would have taken screen time away from Katrina.

[Marie F.]

I hate the way they've handled the relationship between Abbie and Frank, too.  I also don't like the way they've handled the one between Crane and Frank because I feel like they mean just as much to each other as Abbie and Frank do--or at least, they should.  I mean, Irving was Abbie's boss after Corbin died, but Irving hired Crane as a consultant so he was also Crane's boss and friend.  They've both known him for the same amount of time, but I think the show has kind of designated Irving as one of Abbie's friends and not necessarily Crane's, which I don't get.

 

I hate how we waited episode after episode for them to visit Frank in the hospital and it didn't happen until they needed something from him--that doesn't ring true to either character to me.  And I hate how Abbie was seemingly more affected by Frank's death in that one scene.  I would have appreciated a Jenny reaction to Frank's death, too, and maybe a mention of her having visited him in the mental hospital because I don't think she would have just left him there without visiting either.  It's all just a mess.

[phoenics]

Yeah - all of that was collateral damage in the show's attempt to make Katrina a central character at the expense of the other important relationships.

It's a real shame.

[spaceghostess]

Brooklyn 99 is so well written that most of its viewers have faith that the Jake and Amy ship will be done right. Buffy had 2 "ship fulfillments" -- whether either or both caused serious issues is up for debate. Castle and Beckett seems to have mostly gotten over the ship issues.  I think it can be done; it's just a bit harder than most writers want to work.

 

 

Ben and Leslie Knope, Peter and Olivia on Fringe were both good IMO.

(Brought this over from the Media thread . . .)

 

Thanks jhlipton and catrox14--these examples give me hope. I think what makes me most fearful of properly shipping Ichabbie is that the current crop of writers haven't proven that they'd have any facility for (not to mention commitment to) writing this relationship properly. Abbie and Ichabod had the most amazing lightning-in-a-bottle chemistry in Season 1 and Goffman and crew nearly put it out by peeing on it in Season 2. Even if Katrina had been far better developed (and acted), the"relationship" with Ichabod they tried to shove down our throats was horribly written. Their dialogue was stilted and stiff, funny when it wasn't meant to be and turgid the rest of the time. I mean, that's what they gave us when they were trying really hard. Kinda scary, and I'd hate to see them mess up Ichabbie with ham-fisted crap even actors as wonderful as NB and TM would struggle with. *If* they go there, they need to do it as a slow, slow burn that doesn't really catch fire until the final season. That requires a deft, light touch which takes the "friendship" chemistry gradually, playfully, (and never at the expense of characterization) over the line into something more.

Edited February 27, 2015 by spaceghostess

[spaceghostess]

Forgot to add that my beloved Nine-Nine had BETTER do Jake/Amy right (if they go there). They haven't set a foot wrong so far, so they've earned my faith. Pay attention to how this works, SH writers. Trust. It's a thing.

[Yolapukka]

Tying Henry and Katrina to Ichabod ruined the potential of both their characters and damaged Ichabod's severely. It hobbled them as standalone characters and made the actions of all three less important than the dreary drama of their emotional lives, kind of a fatal flaw in a fun show that was about adventure. The word that was often flung at it was Soapy and it was, not merely because it was relationship drama, but also because it was based on a load of soap opera tropes most of them based on instant relationships; everyone should be related to a core character, the return of the long-lost spouse, the heretofore unknown adult child who wanted to destroy his parent(s) for their absence, the virtuous parent determined save a corrupt child from themselves, while they (and the audience by extension) hand-wave the costs to others.

 

Henry was an interesting and unsettling character, making him Ichabod's son was reductive and stripped away what was intriguing and replaced it with a load of childish whining. As well, it gave the writers a lazy shortcut to stay Ichabod's hand when in conflict with Henry. He would have been a much better character if he had been evil for it's own sake, because he wanted power, because he despised  his fellow man, because corruption was something he did well, not because he had abandonment issues. Fuck Henry and his bathetic issues, he was a toxic, spiteful, murderous villain. 

 

Katrina barely worked as the exposition fairy, but at least there was a point to her presence as such. Making her also be Ichabod's wife was an... ummm..... interesting choice. Well actually it was not at all interesting, at least not to me. I still don't know why that was necessary, even if it was done in the context that she was intended to have a short run on the show. Once they decided she was a keeper (why?!) it limited what they could do with her. If they were so damn determined to bring her into the future they should have brought her in as Katrina Van Tassel, at most his fiance (preferably not), rather than his wife.  Katrina would have had to earn her way in, rather than relying on an instant relationship to make her important. She could have had an interesting story of her own as she made her own way in the modern world, discovered the benefits of female independence and earned a spot in the Scooby gang rather than being defined in terms of her effect on a man, especially when her effect was invariably disruptive. It would have allowed them flexibility once it was obvious she and her relationship with the lead male were not catching on with many fans. I could not stand her ludicrous relationship with her evil, elderly son. As bad as each was separately, Henry and Katrina compounded each other in awfulness in combination. The worst things about Henry and Katrina were each other.

[Watermelon]

I could have seen them getting Katrina the wife out of Purgatory, Katrina realizing( or always knowing) that she didn't LURRRRVE Ichabod and now that they were together it wasn't anything like they remembered. They could have had their issues about Jeremy. They could have argued about his being rescue worthy. Ichabod should NEVER have agreed with her about that. Once Heremy killed Moloch Katrina could have used this as the "told you so" moment and THEN become obsessed with finding her son, thus hastening her descent into darkness and her arguing with Ichabod. Then everyone wins. 

[HalcyonDays]

I still think the best scenario was this, and was set up in season 1:

 

Ichabod is destined to be a Witness.

Washington and others know of this plan

Katrina's Coven knows this

Ichabod must be set on his path

Katrina does what she can to push, direct, inch Ichabod towards his path in life

The best way to do it - is to be as close as possible to this person.

How to be as close as possible - make them fall in love with you, worship you, listen to your every word.

Marry them, to keep that close contact and control.

 

All they had to do was have Katrina cast a love spell on Crane, to ensure that he stayed with her, so she could keep tabs on him, direct him to where his true path would be. It would give more weight to her shadiness, and also explain Ichabod's idiocy and character change in season 2. So simple, yet so squandered.

[kieyra]

Moved my shippy ramblings from media thread:

 

I was a reluctant hate-shipper of Logan and Veronica on VM. That sucked. Didn't want them together. But they did have such dysfunctional chemistry.

Different with Ichabbie. (And as a fanfic writer: I could make this work. I don't doubt hundreds of stories have already.) I do have that reluctance to ship them, because they make the most watchable buddy cop team ever. I just wish they didn't have such smoking hot chemistry.

 

For the record: I didn't hate Katrina due to Ichabbie shipping. I hated her fake red hair and the way she broke the entire story and every character. With the calmness of a little perspective, they might have managed some kind of love triangle, for funsies. Just not with undead StruggleWitch wife and senior citizen baby son in the mix. A possible side-piece for Abbie would have played the triangle role much better, especially if Crane became protective of her honor.

 

EDIT: Haha, I totally wrote the above last night after a sleeping pill kicked it (I have to fly this morning and I can never sleep the night before). Don't internet drunk, kids! (Although I still might write that fic.)

[jhlipton]

I think what makes me most fearful of properly shipping Ichabbie is that the current crop of writers haven't proven that they'd have any facility for (not to mention commitment to) writing this relationship properly.

The current crop of writers (who I am convinced did not write Tempus Fugits) don't have the facility to write any half-decent story, much less relationships.  Fox needs to clean house and bring in writers from Teen Wolf, Defiance and similar shows.

[DearEvette]

Abbie/Ichabod ramblings:

 

My feeling is that regardless if you are a shipper or not, trying to introduce a third party as a romantic partner for either one of them is going to be difficult.  One of the many reasons that Katrina didn't work is because they tried too hard to make her a romantic wedge between Ichabod and Abbie and didn't try at all to make her a real character with fleshed out motivations.   So my fear is if they do introduce another romance, the agenda will be for the same reason, to simply put the kibosh on Ichabbie shipping.  This is not a good reason to introduce a romance for one of them.  It rings false.  As has been demonstrated the show is at it's best when they are working together and making soulful speeches about their bond.  A third party unless introduced carefully would always be received with skepticism and inevitably be perceived as an interloper.

 

 

I still think the best scenario was this, and was set up in season 1:

 

Ichabod is destined to be a Witness.

Washington and others know of this plan

Katrina's Coven knows this

Ichabod must be set on his path

Katrina does what she can to push, direct, inch Ichabod towards his path in life

The best way to do it - is to be as close as possible to this person.

How to be as close as possible - make them fall in love with you, worship you, listen to your every word.

Marry them, to keep that close contact and control.

 

All they had to do was have Katrina cast a love spell on Crane, to ensure that he stayed with her, so she could keep tabs on him, direct him to where his true path would be. It would give more weight to her shadiness, and also explain Ichabod's idiocy and character change in season 2. So simple, yet so squandered.

 

Yup.  Not only that but it would also explain the ease with which she ditched Ichabod in favor of Jeremy.  I know mother-love is strong, but come on!.  She kicked Ichabod to the curb in no-seconds flat.  At least if she was never in love with him and he was part of her mission it would explain how remorseless she became in killing him. 

[Crackedmuse]

My feeling is that regardless if you are a shipper or not, trying to introduce a third party as a romantic partner for either one of them is going to be difficult.

Extremely.  Ichabod and Abbie already share the qualities they would be looking for in a romantic partner - plus a thousand more they could never hope to get from anyone else.  Most married people don't have what they have.  Even setting aside the Witness bond and mission, you still have two people who have spent 99% of their time together since Ichabod came out of the ground, and literally the only thing they don't do is have sex.

 

They are compatible on pretty much every level. They enjoy working together, playing together, and learning from each other.  They share interests in literature, movies, etc. - even law enforcement - and philosophizing about life and the meaning of life.  They trust each other, believe in each other, and never censor themselves because the relationship is non-judgmental.  They accept each other exactly as they are.   They don't try to change each other and instinctively seek to help, encourage, and make each other happy.  They will do anything, try anything, if they think it makes the other one smile.

 

When they knock heads, it's not accusatory, belittling, or manipulative. Even when something is initially withheld, like the map or Orion's sigil, when asked they tell the truth. Any "acting out" comes from passion and sincerity, and they always try to understand and empathize when disagreements occur.  And even if they never agree, it doesn't lessen the other person's value or worth.  They get each other's sarcasm, sense of humor, take delight in the trivial and frivolous, and express joy as freely as sorrow - all unfiltered.

 

Ichabod is too impulsive and emotional, but Abbie is too wary and guarded. It's what makes them such a great match because they each bring exactly what the other one needs.  Even with all the time spent together, they still miss each other when apart.  

 

I think next season there will definitely be love interests for both.  But these will be little flirty things to bring out their territorial sides. ("What are your intentions toward Lt. Mills?" - "Schezwan chicken, your favorite)  Beyond that, there's really no point.  The only thing a love interest brings is being able to show an onscreen kiss - just one that's not between the leads!

[topanga]

I still think the best scenario was this, and was set up in season 1:

 

Ichabod is destined to be a Witness.

Washington and others know of this plan

Katrina's Coven knows this

Ichabod must be set on his path

Katrina does what she can to push, direct, inch Ichabod towards his path in life

The best way to do it - is to be as close as possible to this person.

How to be as close as possible - make them fall in love with you, worship you, listen to your every word.

Marry them, to keep that close contact and control.

 

All they had to do was have Katrina cast a love spell on Crane, to ensure that he stayed with her, so she could keep tabs on him, direct him to where his true path would be. It would give more weight to her shadiness, and also explain Ichabod's idiocy and character change in season 2. So simple, yet so squandered.

 

This would have made Season 2 so interesting. Katrina would have been shady and intriguing for the entire season, not just the last 2 episodes. HalcyonDays, you are a rock star. (Meaning, you rock--I'm not calling you a crackhead).

 

 

When they knock heads, it's not accusatory, belittling, or manipulative. Even when something is initially withheld, like the map or Orion's sigil, when asked they tell the truth. Any "acting out" comes from passion and sincerity, and they always try to understand and empathize when disagreements occur.  And even if they never agree, it doesn't lessen the other person's value or worth.  They get each other's sarcasm, sense of humor, take delight in the trivial and frivolous, and express joy as freely as sorrow - all unfiltered.

I mostly agree with your assessment, Crackedmuse. But what frustrated me this season is that Abbie was almost always the person doing the understanding, empathizing, respecting Ichabod's value, and telling the truth. On too many occasions, Ichabod would ignore Abbie's opinion and expertise in favor of Katrina's emotional desires. Even when he knew Abbie was right. And in my opinion, he didn't always try to understand Abbie or empathize with Abbie. Yes, Abbie withheld having Orion's sigil. But I viewed that as her feeling the need to have something powerful that was completely separate from Ichabod, and maybe that was because she and Ichabod weren't always on the same page.

 

I still value their relationship and would watch an entire episode of them grocery shopping or house hunting.   small voice  *and I still ship them.*

[Indi]

Ichy's love life has been explored to death and back to very detrimental results, so I hope he gives it a rest for a season at least, while Abbie gets her own romantic interest or interests. Her character needs to be explored outside of his influence. The writers needs to stop being stingy, when it comes to Abbie and give her a life: hobbies, friends, love life... Just like they've done with him. They just need not to overwhelm the rest of the show with Abbie drama, like they've done with Ichabod. Hers doesn't need to be the epic love to end all epic loves. Instead, I want something human for her: sexual attraction, emotional connection and maybe an uncomplicated break up.

 

They need to untie her from Ichabod's side, otherwise they'll keep giving all the emotional development to him. I don't believe for a second that the EPs will ever make Ichabbie happen. They are too invested in it to not ever happen and I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is for the status quo to continue, but I'm afraid that's exactly, what will happen. They'll bring all the possible love interests for him, while she remains the closed-off Witness with her eyes on the mission and her heart supporting Ichy's manpain. If they do this, it would be catastrophic for Abbie as a character, because she needs to be as much of a lead as Ichy,  all of her layers need to be exposed and her world needs to be a little bigger. I'm not saying they should sideline and exclude Ichy, like they've been doing with Abbie to tell us about Ichy's love and life, but a few cute scenes with friends, a neighbor, anything to tell me she's not depressingly isolated in her own town in her own time.

 

I think a love interest is an important part of that exploration and that's the only reason I want it to exist. I don't need him to be tied to the plot. In fact, that would be preferable seeing how Crane's family drama weighed down the show. I don't need him to last beyond this season either. I want it to be sexy, cute and lighthearted. It definitely cannot be Crane, there is too much against this pairing for it to work or make sense:

 

1. They are not attracted to each other. Abbie considers him her friend and that's it. As for Ichy, he's not into her. She's not his type. His type are the Katrina's of this world, empty husks, where he can project his fantasies and put on pedestals. Abbie has too much personality to project anything on her. She's too real. He can't be romantic and wax poetic about her and that's where he lives and what he loves.

 

2. I'm not sure he won't blame her (as well as himself) for Katrina's death. He's just that type of guy. I hope S3 doesn't have any residual drama about Katrina, but let's face it, this show loves its Ichy outbursts, so I wouldn't be surprised if he cried "Katrina, my love, what have we done to you!" every episode till the series finale.

 

3. I'm still too grossed out by his behavior this season. The only time he sided with Abbie was when Katrina was about to kill them both and even then Katrina's death was completely unintended. The rest of the season was a complete mockery of their bond and all the pretty speeches he liked to make. If there was a chance to be an asshole to Abbie, this ungrateful moocher was the first one to volunteer. Would I want a spineless unreliable man like this for Abbie? No.

 

4. Everything I've seen about Ichy's love life has failed spectacularly and, in my opinion, it wasn't just Katia's fault. I'm not convinced Tom Mison has sexy chemistry in close proximity. Even if they fixed the character and made him somewhat more likable, I'm not sure I'd be willing to risk everything for an Ichabbie romance, that could also fall flat.

[jhlipton]

They trust each other, believe in each other,

Here I side with Indi -- Abbie may trust Ichy but she really shouldn't -- at least not the CFD Ichy. CFD Ichy put CFD before all -- at least until the finale. Whether we'll get early Ichy or manpain Ichy (a carry-over from CFD) remains to be seen. Goffman would give us manpain Ichy, so how he behaves in the early eps will be significant.

[HalcyonDays]

Here I side with Indi -- Abbie may trust Ichy but she really shouldn't -- at least not the CFD Ichy. CFD Ichy put CFD before all -- at least until the finale. Whether we'll get early Ichy or manpain Ichy (a carry-over from CFD) remains to be seen. Goffman would give us manpain Ichy, so how he behaves in the early eps will be significant.

 

Well, lets hope that Goffman isn't around to focus season 3 on "Waaaaa Katrina's dead." Hell, even Mison is like "Nope, not interested." So maybe in season 3, Mison can be a little more "forceful" and "opinionated",  which apparently he can be - in a good way - and get the new showrunner to not really focus on it. I've heard great ideas of having a time jump, of which he would grieve and get over it - off screen. Seeing as how 18th century Crane relatively accepted that the "seeds were there" for Katrina, they can continue with that thought and have him move on.

 

If Katia Winter can has multiple meetings with Goffman and co and influence the direction of her character, then Mison better well be able to do this too. For his sanity, my sanity and all of our sanity.

[jhlipton]

For his sanity, my sanity and all of our sanity.

 

Of our sanity, for our sanity and by our sanity!

[Crackedmuse]

 

I mostly agree with your assessment, Crackedmuse. But what frustrated me this season is that Abbie was almost always the person doing the understanding, empathizing, respecting Ichabod's value, and telling the truth. On too many occasions, Ichabod would ignore Abbie's opinion and expertise in favor of Katrina's emotional desires. Even when he knew Abbie was right. And in my opinion, he didn't always try to understand Abbie or empathize with Abbie.

 

I understand your viewpoint, but I see that as more of a surface reaction to Ichabod considering and/or in agreement with Katrina's opinions, as not translating to him ignoring or being dismissive of Abbie's. I do not recall Ichabod discounting or even minimizing Abbie's opinion in any way.  He disagreed with her that lethal action needed to be taken immediately because he was feeling the pressure of the physical and psychological connections with his wife and child.  He had hope another way could be found and tried to balance that hope with duty.  He did not diminish Abbie's arguments or ever told her she was wrong - about anything.  As you say, he agreed she was right.  It was their job to stop the Horsemen.  But Ichabod is a human being, and a man out of time, for whom Katrina, Henry, and Abraham represented a life he led 250 years ago which he was still emotionally tied to.  He wanted to try to reach Henry in whatever way he could, so if they had to kill him, Ichabod could feel in his heart there truly was no other choice.

 

I never saw Ichabod excusing anyone's actions or trying to make them appear irrelevant or inconsequential.  He was well aware of the threat and cost because he was right beside Abbie dealing with all of it - along with the guilt that so much of the damage was a direct result of Henry's hatred for him.  He did not abandon Abbie or forsake his duty, or in any way imply he did not believe everything she said was true.  He never left her side unless she specifically asked him to, and fought just as hard battling whatever evils they faced.  Abbie kept saying Henry must die, but until they found the sword they had no way to kill him.  So even if they were in complete agreement, it's debatable what, if any, effect it would have had on how events played out because they had no way to stop him.

 

Yes, Crane voted with Katrina about approaching Henry for a cure to get rid of baby Moloch because he believed that was the only option they had to try to save her.  Abbie felt it was a waste of time, but she had no other options either.  And when Katrina volunteered to die, Abbie vetoed it.  Disagreement is not being dismissive.  Abbie and Ichabod were both acting on conviction of belief.  He was not taking a stand against Abbie or being cavalier about her opinion.  He simply believed confronting Henry might make a difference - and they had nothing else to try.  It was a last ditch effort, because without it Katrina would surely die.  Had Ichabod never gone to Henry it wouldn't have changed anything because they were still in the same place when he returned.

 

Ichabod and Abbie are individuals.  They will have their own thoughts, motivations, frustrations, and beliefs.  They will disagree on what poses the greatest threat and methods to disable that threat.  But human weakness is not lack of commitment or dereliction of duty. Every situation will bring pressures and conflicts that may put the Witnesses at odds.  S2 put the clamps on Crane, but S3 may swing the pendulum Abbie's way.  They were at odds but stood together in every way that mattered.  Whatever Abbie faced, Crane faced.  He did not shy away from danger or hesitate to put himself in harm's way. Joe Corbin almost ate him alive.  Crane questioned if trying to save him was worth it.  Even though Joe was a victim, lots of people still died at his hands.  Of course I am not equivocating Joe's deeds with Henry's - not in the slightest.  But even if Joe had chosen evil, I believe Crane would have supported whatever Abbie wanted to do - no matter his feelings - because he knew what Joe meant to her and would never diminish that even if he felt she was wrong.  But life is lived in the moment - not the abstract - and all you can do is the best you can in the moment.

 

They have both acknowledged the strain these events placed on their bond and are actively working to communicate their needs better and strengthen the partnership as they go along.  But things will never be 50/50 and conflicts will arise.  They've got years of trials and tribulations ahead, and as Crane stated, nobody told them what form(s) it would take.  Nothing is certain or predictable. This time next year Jenny might be rampaging the Hollow slaying people left and right. All Ichabbie can do is have faith in their bond and go forward with the best of intentions.  And that is what I feel they have always done - even when in conflict.

 

I think the show actually did a bit of a disservice by having everyone connected with Abbie be a victim of evil, and everyone connected with Crane making a deliberate choice.  It never forced her into having anything on the line in the same way.  It looked like they were about to go there with Frank, but Frank said outright he couldn't help himself, so the dynamics of victim vs. choice are unequal. Hopefully there will be more of a balance in the future.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Crackedmuse

[HalcyonDays]

HalcyonDays, you are a rock star. (Meaning, you rock--I'm not calling you a crackhead).

 

Aww...thanks, topanga! You too are absolutely awesome!

 

Of our sanity, for our sanity and by our sanity!

 

Here here. Though this stupid show it doing it's utmost to drive me up the bloody wall.

[Morrigan2575]

Going way back here...back towards the end of S1 I remember there was a dust up on TWOP over "the map". I personally viewed Ichabod recreating the map to Purgatory as a betrayal of his relationship with Abbie. I know he claimed he'd never use it without her agreement but, I didn't believe it and nothing in S2 makes me think I was wrong.

I think S2 really broke the Ichabbie relationship/partnership (I don't view them romantically) for me. I gave up after Deliverance (only watched Mama Mills episode) but, what I saw really made me dislike Ichabod and the way he treated Abbie both as a friend and partner.

There's a part of me that just wants to pretend S2 and "the map" didn't happen and start S3 fresh. There's also another part of me that wants Abbie/Jenny to team up and leave Ichabod in the dog house while the Mills Sisters continue to pawn all.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Dejana]

I think a love interest is an important part of that exploration and that's the only reason I want it to exist. I don't need him to be tied to the plot. In fact, that would be preferable seeing how Crane's family drama weighed down the show. I don't need him to last beyond this season either. I want it to be sexy, cute and lighthearted. It definitely cannot be Crane, there is too much against this pairing for it to work or make sense:

 

1. They are not attracted to each other. Abbie considers him her friend and that's it. As for Ichy, he's not into her. She's not his type. His type are the Katrina's of this world, empty husks, where he can project his fantasies and put on pedestals. Abbie has too much personality to project anything on her. She's too real. He can't be romantic and wax poetic about her and that's where he lives and what he loves.

 

Ichabod has considered himself married for both seasons of SH so far; he doesn't seem the type to have a wandering eye. I think he took a second look at the web chat woman in S1, but that seemed more out of shock than genuine interest. Even the re-enactor, who was a similar physical type to Katrina, seemed deferential to him and could appreciate his love of all things Revolutionary War (even if she wasn't a fellow person "out of time"), didn't seem to spark his interest that way. Now that Katrina is dead, I think Ichabod's reserve will drop when it comes to appreciating other women.

 

4. Everything I've seen about Ichy's love life has failed spectacularly and, in my opinion, it wasn't just Katia's fault. I'm not convinced Tom Mison has sexy chemistry in close proximity. Even if they fixed the character and made him somewhat more likable, I'm not sure I'd be willing to risk everything for an Ichabbie romance, that could also fall flat.

 

SH's big Katrina push has reminded me of Megan's rise to prominence on Mad Men. Auditioned for a "bit part" that became greatly expanded, headwriter gushed about the character and actress was a "muse" of sorts. Yet Jon Hamm (Golden Globe winner, multi-Emmy nominee) seemed to have almost anti-chemistry with her. Luckily, there were four seasons of the show in the tank before she came along (and other TV/film work) to recognize that Jon Hamm was perfectly capable of selling a romance with a co-star, just not the one he was stuck with, unfortunately. I would say Hamm tried a bit harder than Mison did with Winter, but after a certain point, the well is empty.  I haven't seen Mison in many things, but I think the chemistry he has with Nicole Beharie is exactly the type that would a romantic comedy director would be thrilled to have between their two co-stars. I have to agree with the opinion that all that's missing between Ichabbie to make them a couple is that they don't already kiss/sleep together.

 

But really, the passcode to Abbie's phone is Ichabod's birthday? How intimate.

 

Whether Ichabbie happens or not, I want to see and hear Ichabod's opinions on modern dating conventions ("third dates", grooming, sexting).

Edited March 3, 2015 by Dejana

[jhlipton]

I do not recall Ichabod discounting or even minimizing Abbie's opinion in any way.

There was one time that they held a "vote" and Abbie, as a Witness, had a vote equal to Katrina's (who was nothing but a hindernce). Ichabod agreed with this "vote" which, yeah, thoroughly discounted Abbie's opinion.  That wasn't the only time, but it was one of the most flagrant.  And that stupid wretched map also discounted Abbie's opinion.  She said get rid of it, and as far as she knew he did.  Then Indi's Ichabod went and redrew it.

 

Can we have two Ichi's?  The one who was ruined by Katrina's Vortex of Stupidity (aka Indi's Ichy) and the "Good Ichy" -- we need a catchy name for this Ichy -- that we saw in the early episodes and in the finale.

[Indi]

Ichabod has considered himself married for both seasons of SH so far; he doesn't seem the type to have a wandering eye. I think he took a second look at the web chat woman in S1, but that seemed more out of shock than genuine interest. Even the re-enactor, who was a similar physical type to Katrina, seemed deferential to him and could appreciate his love of all things Revolutionary War (even if she wasn't a fellow person "out of time"), didn't seem to spark his interest that way. Now that Katrina is dead, I think Ichabod's reserve will drop when it comes to appreciating other women.

 

Physical attraction happens, whether people are married (and faithful) or not. He and Katrina are the primary examples of wandering eyes in the show, since they betrayed an engagement and a friendship, to be together. How weird would it be if Ichy was attracted to Abbie all of a sudden? Where would that come from? He's treated her like crap for the most part these two past seasons and barely looked at her like the beautiful woman she is. If he had been attracted to her, but suppressed those feelings, it would have been a different matter, but nothing like that came up on screen.

[Sparkling Beth]

Wow, Indi, you must have been watching a different show than I was. 

Edited March 3, 2015 by Sparkling Beth

[DeLurker]

But isn't that what they did with Crane and Katrina, in spite of their blatant anti-chemistry, romantic or otherwise? Clearly the show has never cared about chemistry or the lack of it. There are tons of people who think Abbie and Crane have sexual chemistry. Personally, I don't think it matters anymore. It's more simple than that. It just doesn't make logical sense to turn them into a romantic pairing, considering the way he has treated her throughout the series. The writers have bent Abbie's character over backwards to accommodate Crane's many betrayals, general ineffectualness and general shittiness, instead of repairing his character. Hooking them up would be gross, she shouldn't be treated like a doormat. Chemistry be damned.

From S3 Ep 1, Witness...I think the anti-chemistry between Crane and Katrina was the result of Tom Mison's deliberate acting choice and Katia Winter's limited acting ability.  I strongly suspect, based on nothing, that the guy who could come across as engaging and charming while marveling at a stapler or a bath scrunchie puff could easily generate some heat with a beautiful woman - because KW was attractive.  I imagine it was abundantly clear on set that Crane was a stand in for Goffman's KW hard on ("Ick" when he had to play that role), that TM and NB saw this lightning-in-a-bottle show going massively off the cliff and resented it greatly.

 

From the pictures and interviews I have seen of TM and NB, those two are ridiculously attractive people (independent of each other) and combined they have a good rapport and energy.  Those could easily translate to chemistry - of any kind - in the show. 

 

Campbell is at a disadvantage because he is literally trying to move forward from Goffman's toxic Season of the Witch.   Trying to distant the story and characters from that ooze is going to be messy and they inevitably can't just ignore everything and pretend it never happened (although I would totally go along with that).

 

I'm willing to give it some time for them to clean up and more latitude than normal to straighten out things with Abbie and Ich.

[phoenics]

Look, I get how everyone is sick of knowing that almost every single show out there pairs up its male and female lead eventually. But do you know why you see that? Because almost every single female lead out there is white.

Go research it for yourself: think of all the biggest offenders out there that make you roll your eyes about Yet Another Show going down this road. What percentage of them have a white female lead? Then go crunch the numbers for white male leads and women of colour leads - how many of those go on to be an epic romance? That's not made by Sondra Rhimes, I mean?

Then go read up on feminism and intersectionality. I'll go ahead and spoil it for you: The boring trope of pairing the leads is almost always exclusive to white, hetero, cis-gendered people only. People who don't belong to that group don't get to see their representatives being the love of someone's life, and the percentage for that is lowest when the female lead is a black woman.

So I get it; I really do. If you are watching a show with a white man and woman, protest as loud as you can about putting the leads together if you want! It'd be a gutsy show who cast two attractive white and hetero people of the opposite sex and never caved into the pressure to put them together. (And then go watch the original CSI: Gil Grissom and Catherine Willows will warm the cockles of your heart.)

But on a show like this? Look, it's cool to say you don't see the chemistry, or that you hate Ichabod and just want to see him die, or that you ship Abbie with a different character. It's cool to have a specific reason why these two characters, in particular, do not work together romantically. But if your reason is just that you don't want the show to put the leads together on Yet Another Show, please realize you are not breaking the mold in saying that; you are not fighting stereotypes; you are not proposing anything new. You are arguing in favor of a very old and hoary TV trope: that a white man and a black woman should never get together romantically. If you crunched the numbers as I suggested above, you'll realize just how unusual that storyline actually is on television. Arguing in favor of a no-romo relationship is not going against the status quo; it's arguing for the status quo, and one based in racial prejudice in that.

I for one am all for Sleepy Hollow breaking new ground. I didn't see anything wrong with the chemistry in this episode. In fact, if Abbie had been a white character I would have definitely deduced, from the looks and the hugs and the general turn of events, that this was starting down the romance path.

*bows down, tosses roses, cries tears of relief and joy that someone gets it*

Intersectionality is a real thing and I hope EVERYONE who cries the "Yet Another Show" "keep them platonic for once" chant does the math you suggest and then, politely, picks another show (with two white leads) to push the "keep them platonic" narrative. Stop doing that with THIS show (and every other show with a black female lead and white male lead).

Edited October 5, 2015 by phoenics

[fantique]

Look, I get how everyone is sick of knowing that almost every single show out there pairs up its male and female lead eventually. But do you know why you see that? Because almost every single female lead out there is white.

Go research it for yourself: think of all the biggest offenders out there that make you roll your eyes about Yet Another Show going down this road. What percentage of them have a white female lead? Then go crunch the numbers for white male leads and women of colour leads - how many of those go on to be an epic romance? That's not made by Sondra Rhimes, I mean?

Then go read up on feminism and intersectionality. I'll go ahead and spoil it for you: The boring trope of pairing the leads is almost always exclusive to white, hetero, cis-gendered people only. People who don't belong to that group don't get to see their representatives being the love of someone's life, and the percentage for that is lowest when the female lead is a black woman.

So I get it; I really do. If you are watching a show with a white man and woman, protest as loud as you can about putting the leads together if you want! It'd be a gutsy show who cast two attractive white and hetero people of the opposite sex and never caved into the pressure to put them together. (And then go watch the original CSI: Gil Grissom and Catherine Willows will warm the cockles of your heart.)

But on a show like this? Look, it's cool to say you don't see the chemistry, or that you hate Ichabod and just want to see him die, or that you ship Abbie with a different character. It's cool to have a specific reason why these two characters, in particular, do not work together romantically. But if your reason is just that you don't want the show to put the leads together on Yet Another Show, please realize you are not breaking the mold in saying that; you are not fighting stereotypes; you are not proposing anything new. You are arguing in favor of a very old and hoary TV trope: that a white man and a black woman should never get together romantically. If you crunched the numbers as I suggested above, you'll realize just how unusual that storyline actually is on television. Arguing in favor of a no-romo relationship is not going against the status quo; it's arguing for the status quo, and one based in racial prejudice in that.

I for one am all for Sleepy Hollow breaking new ground. I didn't see anything wrong with the chemistry in this episode. In fact, if Abbie had been a white character I would have definitely deduced, from the looks and the hugs and the general turn of events, that this was starting down the romance path.

I don't know if you noticed but, and ladies(?) correct me if I'm wrong here, but I feel like Enero, Kimberella and I don't give two shits about the "I want them to stay friends" crap. We're saying we don't even get why they're friends. We certainly hope she has more self esteem and self respect than to get together with Crane as he is now. If he changes in the future, and I would need it to be longer than a season to be sure, and mans up? OK, but as of right now, I would be insulted on her behalf if they made the attempt to convince me she is in love with him. Considers him part of her gang/family. Sure. Affection for giving her answers when her father figure died and being in the thick of it with her when the crazy started? Definitely. But wanting a more intimate connection when what they have now is taxing enough? I would then have to redefine the parameters of Abbie's character, and that's the last thing I want to do.

 

As for breaking the mould or whatever, I don't care about that either, and that's just me. My agenda, as always, is to be entertained. I will not be having fun watching Abbie becoming even more of an enabler to Ichabod. She already held her tongue because she felt like at least  he would stay as a witness and not cause a separation since they need to be together for the mission. It would break my heart to see Abbie holding even further back to not endanger their relationship should it get to a deeper level of entanglement. There is a possibility that him being in love with her would cause him to be less of an a-hole (ETA: I am aware I am exaggerating but I have feeeeligs...sorry) but I am not willing to chance that at the moment.

 

ETA2: If I wanted to watch a black woman be in a relationship with a white man that is insulting to her as she continues indulging the whims of a man child with self absorption levels so high that he has the gravitational pull of a black hole, I would watch the garbage that is Scandal, thank you very much. Yes, I a aware I am exaggerating, Ichabod is nowhere near as terrible as Fitz, but honestly, I am kind of counting down the airtime minutes until his American Citizenship thing takes precedence over his witness duties. Because his devotion to the mission is borne out of restlessness over not belonging. I am expecting speeches about what it would mean for him to be a real person with rights and feeling like a valued member of society. I just hope he has those speeches with his attorney or whatever as opposed to with Abbie while explaining why he is not putting 150% in the mission when she is juggling the FBI and Pandora. Upside though, he will be able to be less dependent on her and that could also potentially mean less ranty scenes where I am begging Abbie tell him to STFU. At least with an immigration attorney, I can see what the appeal is.

 

Great assessment. But once again it's all about Crane, his pain, his needs and his desires which Abbie always has to come around to. At this point their 'friendship' is very one sided and is most beneficial to Crane not Abbie.

I agree. I've always been somewhat on the fence about a Crane/Abbie pairing, but right now I have no desire to see this. Now if Crane is shown to have less arrogance and more humility and to care less about HIS angst and place in the world and more about Abbie's thoughts and feelings, then maybe but right now no. Abbie has already given too much to this relationship, and not just emotionally, look at all the money I'm sure she's shelled out to keep up not only him but his trifling wife without getting anything in return, to get caught up in the black hole that would be a romance with Crane.

If she must have love, which she totally deserves, let it be with some other guy who is actually worthy of her.

Yeah, it's getting painful (ad irritating) to watch and it makes me dismiss Ichabod as a result. Which sucks.

Edited October 5, 2015 by fantique

[kimberella]

From S3 Ep 1, Witness...I think the anti-chemistry between Crane and Katrina was the result of Tom Mison's deliberate acting choice and Katia Winter's limited acting ability.

My opinion of Tom Mison is not as high as yours, I'm afraid. I don't think it was a deliberate acting choice. He didn't become a stand-in for Goffman until later in S1 and yet his lack of chemistry with Winter was present from the start. His job was to sell Crane's big love for Katrina, but all he managed was to stare blankly at Winter with open mouth like an idiot, mirroring her. Some actors act up. He acts down. He tends to crumble in scenes with less talented actors.

But perhaps there's some truth to the idea that he has trouble doing romantic scenes. He's alright, when he has to hug Nicole and sell friendship, but I shudder to think what he'd turn into if he ever had to kiss her. I have never bothered watching his other work, but other people have and many comments after that awful kiss between him and Reed went along the lines that he is just not good at that kind of thing.

Campbell is at a disadvantage because he is literally trying to move forward from Goffman's toxic Season of the Witch.   Trying to distant the story and characters from that ooze is going to be messy and they inevitably can't just ignore everything and pretend it never happened (although I would totally go along with that).

 

I'm willing to give it some time for them to clean up and more latitude than normal to straighten out things with Abbie and Ich.

This is a clean slate for Campbell, according to him, so I doubt he'll do an effort to fix Crane's past actions and make a friendship or romance with Abbie believable or desirable. As it is now, I shudder to think Campbell could make Ichabbie happen. It would be so wrong! Just because the writers keep giving him a pass and putting him on a pedestal, even through Abbie (trampling all over her character, I must say), it doesn't mean it's not an abusive relationship.

[Miss Dee]

Hi phoenics - thanks for the kudos.

Fantique, as I stated earlier I think it's cool if someone doesn't want Ichabod *in particular* and Abbie *in particular* to get romantic or even be friends for whatever character-based reason they choose. I don't see anything wrong with that (even though I would probably disagree). Just so you are aware that I wasn't arguing with anyone who has specific problems with that relationship with my earlier post. It's all good.

To clarify more generally: I'm talking about the attitude of "Nothing to do with them; I'm just sick of show runners sticking the leads in a romance." Well, sure; nobody's arguing that this isn't a tired trope, *as it applies to two white leads*. It's about getting people to be aware that changing the race of one of those leads, (especially the female lead, especially if she's black) significantly alters the odds that you actually would see that relationship become romantic, and therefore arguing in favor of it doing so is not actually arguing for the status quo; it's arguing against it.

As phoenics said, pull for no-romo relationships all you want with two white leads. But please be cognizant that pulling for it with a white man/woman of colour is not the same thing, if your goal is to see something different on television.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Miss Dee

[phoenics]

I just think the Reed kiss was supposed to be awkward with no chemistry at all - that's the point.

But with Nicole - sorry - he really does have chemistry with her. He's so not my type, but with Beharie, he comes across with a much better RLF. The scene where he saw her in the detention center? That look? Sorry - that was chemistry and if he wasn't putting on a Romantic Lead Face, then color me blue, because that's what I saw.

I think that Mison was fine with Winter - it was Winter who couldn't muster anything - and they had anti-chemistry. But he has chemistry with Jenny and Abbie, and even that Caroline lady - so I'm not gonna throw him in the "useless actor" pile. He's fine, imo. Winter was the issue - she was so concerned with looking breathy, etc that she just couldn't be. When she was evil, she got so much better at emoting (or her expressionless face worked better then).

I think issues around Ichabod not being good enough for Abbie are probably valid - but I don't think Cliffy sees it that way - so we likely won't be getting resolution on that. And honestly it would be awkward and weird to dredge it up at this point. The only way to address it would be to have Ichabod do something AGAIN that requires him to be called out - so he can apologize.

[Moonsky]

I don't know if you noticed but, and ladies(?) correct me if I'm wrong here, but I feel like Enero, Kimberella and I don't give two shits about the "I want them to stay friends" crap. We're saying we don't even get why they're friends. We certainly hope she has more self esteem and self respect than to get together with Crane as he is now. If he changes in the future, and I would need it to be longer than a season to be sure, and mans up? OK, but as of right now, I would be insulted on her behalf if they made the attempt to convince me she is in love with him. Considers him part of her gang/family. Sure. Affection for giving her answers when her father figure died and being in the thick of it with her when the crazy started? Definitely. But wanting a more intimate connection when what they have now is taxing enough? I would then have to redefine the parameters of Abbie's character, and that's the last thing I want to do.

 

I think Ichabbie have chemistry but for a romantic relationship between them to be good, the writing leading up to it needs to make sense for both characters (& especially from Abbie’s point of view). Right now their platonic relationship is imbalanced so it would be even more so if they were in a romantic relationship without good writing to show the audience why the romance works for both of them.

 

To try & translate Ichabbie’s current dynamic into an example of a current day real life imbalanced romantic relationship (especially without growth on Ichabod’s part) would be something along the following: Take a modern day college educated woman who has a great 9 to 5 job that pays her $50K a year & owns her own home. She’s also never been married or had any kids but decides to get into a romantic relationship with a man whose life is totally opposite from hers. He doesn’t have a job or feel the need to look for work. He’s also not in school full or part time so he can’t use that as an excuse for not working. He lives in her home rent free & she gives him pocket money since he has no income. He depends on her for food, clothing, uses her car for transportation, plays video games all day, etc. He also has an ex-girlfriend that he doesn't get along with but they share a child together. He doesn't spend much time with the child or provide child support since he has no income.

 

In many cases when a woman who has her life together is involved with a man who doesn’t have his life in order, her close family & friends will ask her why is she even in a relationship with him because she could do so much better. When it comes to SH, Abbie has essentially been Ichabod’s caretaker for two seasons. He’s depended on her for food, clothing, shelter, & transportation. She taught him how to adapt to his new surroundings in modern day SH & also helped to take care of his wife. She’s also bailed him out of jail twice so far. While doing all of this for him, she’s also experienced on more than a few occasions him putting his family before his witness duties (even when his family was actively working against their mission) despite telling Abbie on more than a few occasions that their bond as witnesses came before everyone else. Now at this point I could see why he might be interested in being in a romantic relationship with her because he’s basically gotten everything he needed out of their partnership so far without it even being romantic yet. Logically speaking though (& without the writers making Abbie look pathetic to justify it), I can’t see why she would entertain the thought of being in a romantic relationship with Ichabod at this point without him seriously getting his life together first.

[frenchtoast]

Just bringing this over to this topic after moving some posts here. Please be careful and try to avoid lecturing and instructing posters on how to watch and comment and whether they should 'ship a couple or not. Some posts have been doing that and it's becoming an issue.

[fantique]

I think issues around Ichabod not being good enough for Abbie are probably valid - but I don't think Cliffy sees it that way - so we likely won't be getting resolution on that. And honestly it would be awkward and weird to dredge it up at this point. The only way to address it would be to have Ichabod do something AGAIN that requires him to be called out - so he can apologize.

Yeah... which is why some of us have a huge problem with the pairing because it can only an important (and unfortunately most likely negative) impact on both their characterisation. And let's be honest here, he is 95% sure to do something again that requires him to be called out. Now whether he apologises is another matter entirely.

I guess with what you're saying and DearEvette's post which I respond to below, I see little reason to root for them as friends now if they don't solve this problem soon or as a couple if it happens because either the writers will be honest and portray the problems with their relationship (of either nature ) or they would say that all is good while showing how shitty it is and then I would stop watching the show. I would just be bummed out after sticking it out, that's all.

Also about not getting a resolution, are you saying that they will go full romance anyway or that they will just keep the status quo and avoid bringing up how he is kind of a shitty friend right now?

 

On some level I think this re-intro kinda had to address Crane's state of mind. If you look at it objectively he is in a really fucked up situation.  He is here 230 years in the future and while he had the whole being  a Witness and stopping the Apocalypse thing as an anchor before, with it all seemingly gone (and having killed his wife) I can see why he feels a bit lost.  What is he supposed to do with no demons? His coming forward from his own time has to have meaning.  If you think about it, his rants about modern times is another way of him coping with his changed circumstances, but it is amusing so we don't think about it in the same way we'd think about him panicking or questioning or maybe even having moments of doubt.

 

1) And I do agree that the balance of the relationship is lopsided, but I think part of that is also necessary. He needs Abbie more than she needs him.  So I think he does take more than he gives. But I do think Crane gives Abbie something that is hard to define that makes him valuable to her. 

 

2) Or maybe she needs him cuz he's hard to kill , let's face it, men in Abbie's orbit seem do to die at least once or twice...Corbin, Irving, Andy, Luke(?) ... LOL

 

WRT his dire circumstances, if he actually had settings other than excitable puppy ofrgrouchy old man then I would feel something. The Yolanda speech before it is played for laughs was moving, there are times when I feel sorry for him and feel the show doesn't add the gravity necessary to his displacement. But if Ichabod himself most of the time doesn't seem that bummed out about being in the present except for when he's making excuses for his behaviour, then I can't take his "distress" seriously. It's a writing based character problem but it has been constant for too long to not just be who the character is now. And this première didn't seem to see that as a problem so I don't see how they will fix it. Also, here's a way to have him express his loss and not unload on Abbie while making her feel shitty to call him out on his shit; how about talking about it with Jenny? They are establishing their misfits status and showcasing their friendship already so why not? Simple, easy talk between two people who have gotten used to feeling abnormal and dealing with it by seeking adventure. Character moment, more Jenny time and no emotional manipulation of Abbie. And he apologises to Abbie, without excuses, while at the bar. Just thought of it. How hard is that? All I had to think about was how could Ichabod express his unease without burdening Abbie at the same time? Who else could he talk to? Jenny.

 

1) This is a very dubious argument to make. How is that not a reflection of his character (which is what prevents me from investing in their relationship) though? There are more than one way to react to such a set up and how one reacts is indicative of who they are as a person. He needs more so he takes more? OK... Some people that are even just a little bit more considerate would, oh I don't know, work harder to feel like they earn the more they need? Be conscious of the burden they are and try to be as helpful as possible? Not just say "I know I am a burden" while they know their situation means that the other person can't really go "yeah, you need to go". That's too easy. That's like passively aggressively cleaning the kitchen so badly that your roommate says "you know what? Let me just clean it."

Also, while it is hard to define, please at least give me a something, past his arriving in Sleepy Hollow as the events got kickstarted, that bring something to Abbie's life. What has he made her realise about herself, what has he done that made her stronger? Happier? More confident? I'll take anything. Because actually when I think of the little development Abbie has had, it all mostly links to Jenny and her family. Not that she has helped his development either but at least she is his moral/emotional support.

I am lost as to how "it has to be unbalanced and unfair" is an argument for a relationship (platonic or romantic) that is not an bad one. Unless you're ok with the potential relationship being an unhealthy one and think it's a good story to explore (which has its merit if they come out the other side of the conglict). In which case, then I concede. Otherwise...I just don't know where to go from there?

 

2) So...default friendship? OK? As long as it's written that way, you know, because it's comfort and not real, I guess...? I think I would have a hard time rooting for such a team though.

I want to specify that they should totally be a team because they have no choice, but I want the writing to reflect that. If Ichabod is taking his toll on Abbie, show it. Not necessarily on a monetary level because money is never a real thing on these shows any way, but show her wanting to have some off time without him. By herself, with Jenny or whatever. Just don't act like he is doing her some favour by his presence or bringing anything, other than what he has no choice but do as a witness, to the table.

 

 

I think Ichabbie have chemistry but for a romantic relationship between them to be good, the writing leading up to it needs to make sense for both characters (& especially from Abbie’s point of view). Right now their platonic relationship is imbalanced so it would be even more so if they were in a romantic relationship without good writing to show the audience why the romance works for both of them.

 

To try & translate Ichabbie’s current dynamic into an example of a current day real life imbalanced romantic relationship (especially without growth on Ichabod’s part) would be something along the following: Take a modern day college educated woman who has a great 9 to 5 job that pays her $50K a year & owns her own home. She’s also never been married or had any kids but decides to get into a romantic relationship with a man whose life is totally opposite from hers. He doesn’t have a job or feel the need to look for work. He’s also not in school full or part time so he can’t use that as an excuse for not working. He lives in her home rent free & she gives him pocket money since he has no income. He depends on her for food, clothing, uses her car for transportation, plays video games all day, etc. He also has an ex-girlfriend that he doesn't get along with but they share a child together. He doesn't spend much time with the child or provide child support since he has no income.

 

In many cases when a woman who has her life together is involved with a man who doesn’t have his life in order, her close family & friends will ask her why is she even in a relationship with him because she could do so much better. When it comes to SH, Abbie has essentially been Ichabod’s caretaker for two seasons. He’s depended on her for food, clothing, shelter, & transportation. She taught him how to adapt to his new surroundings in modern day SH & also helped to take care of his wife. She’s also bailed him out of jail twice so far. While doing all of this for him, she’s also experienced on more than a few occasions him putting his family before his witness duties (even when his family was actively working against their mission) despite telling Abbie on more than a few occasions that their bond as witnesses came before everyone else. Now at this point I could see why he might be interested in being in a romantic relationship with her because he’s basically gotten everything he needed out of their partnership so far without it even being romantic yet. Logically speaking though (& without the writers making Abbie look pathetic to justify it), I can’t see why she would entertain the thought of being in a romantic relationship with Ichabod at this point without him seriously getting his life together first.

 

The analogy is a little hard because the apocalypse is a difficult equivalent and he is not unemployed by choice but yeah, this is pretty much my mental block here. I just need the writers to fix it somehow because even their friendship is becoming tenuous to me. It's hard to imagine that someone, who used to have options and possibilities and independence, like Abbie does not feel so restricted in her life now that she has to do everything with Crane in mind on top of them being Witnesses.The sad part is she is so duty bound that I feel like even if she got tired, she would't feel free to just express it, as she would want to keep team from imploding. It was easier with the CFD because it was clear that they were detracting from the mission but this would be more of a personal thing and that is a harder obstacle because last time was "it's not you it's them" but now it is him... I hope they figure it out though. I want to be enjoying the ride along with this team, I really freaking do. I am crossing my fingers, that's for sure.

[Indi]

But with Nicole - sorry - he really does have chemistry with her. He's so not my type, but with Beharie, he comes across with a much better RLF. The scene where he saw her in the detention center? That look? Sorry - that was chemistry and if he wasn't putting on a Romantic Lead Face, then color me blue, because that's what I saw.

 

I saw no romantic face. In fact, I thought he looked positively annoyed, although I don't know why? Maybe because he was forced to call her and see her again, when he didn't intend to?. I think it's very telling, how he didn't apologize at all and that his speech basically was about how he loved not being in contact with her at all. I was shocked at his rudeness.

 

What was his plan, once he got back to Sleepy Hollow with the tablets? Go behind Abbie's back and maybe convince Jenny she is the true witness? Work alone? God, he's stupid!

 

I think issues around Ichabod not being good enough for Abbie are probably valid - but I don't think Cliffy sees it that way - so we likely won't be getting resolution on that. And honestly it would be awkward and weird to dredge it up at this point. The only way to address it would be to have Ichabod do something AGAIN that requires him to be called out - so he can apologize.

 

It's not that he's not good enough for Abbie. That implies there is good in him, when he keeps proving he's just an awful human. He could never do her any good. He's an emotional leech, who uses and discards her at his leisure without any regard for her whatsoever. Whoever called him a psycho or something like that in another thread was right on the money. No wonder he and Katrina were true soulmates, they have the same personality.

[phoenics]

I saw no romantic face. In fact, I thought he looked positively annoyed,

Yeah - not what I saw at all. And the sweeping and swelling music that accompanied his face during that time certainly didn't point to annoyed. I saw his features soften and his gaze linger.

It was Abbie who looked annoyed when she snort-laughed at him, lol.

Is it possible that your dislike of Ichabod is coloring your view of that scene? I honestly don't understand how you arrived at "annoyed".

although I don't know why? Maybe because he was forced to call her and see her again, when he didn't intend to?

Dismissing the "annoyed" look that you see and I don't, I think it's as another poster postulated. What I saw actually was that he looked very glad to see her and showed RLF. Then when Abbie scoffed/snorted he looked ashamed - as though he'd let her down and he knew it. That look actually punched me in the chest a bit - Mison was so adept at expressing it. It was subtle, but there. He looked like a puppy with it's tail tucked between its legs.

1) He knew he screwed up. He left with hardly a word and when he does call, he's in a detention center?

So yeah - he definitely looked ashamed. Still not getting the "annoyed" look you saw. At all.

. I think it's very telling, how he didn't apologize at all and that his speech basically was about how he loved not being in contact with her at all. I was shocked at his rudeness.

He didn't use the words, "I'm sorry", but he did say that his actions were "Very Regrettable". I think that was his apology - in his Colonial speak. Perhaps it wasn't enough for you - that's fair - but I do think that was the intention of what he said and I do believe he looked, sounded and seemed contrite in that moment with Abbie. Especially after she came at him for not even calling her the moment he got there.

I also think that his purpose in going off and doing everything he did was to have a purpose. Meaning I don't think he felt worthy to be around Abbie if he didn't have a real "Witness" purpose. And he felt he didn't belong where she was anymore and the witness bond tying them together was gone. For him, being just her "friend" wasn't enough - he wanted to be connected even more to her as a witness. And based on their conversation in the pub at the end of the episode, he wanted to be closer to her as family. Abbie sensed that - which is why she reassured him that he belonged there with her and Jenny in the end. That he didn't need a "purpose" to be important to her.

What was his plan, once he got back to Sleepy Hollow with the tablets? Go behind Abbie's back and maybe convince Jenny she is the true witness? Work alone? God, he's stupid!

I think his plan was to go to Abbie herself with the tablets - but he got stopped at the border.

 

It's not that he's not good enough for Abbie. That implies there is good in him, when he keeps proving he's just an awful human. He could never do her any good. He's an emotional leech, who uses and discards her at his leisure without any regard for her whatsoever. Whoever called him a psycho or something like that in another thread was right on the money. No wonder he and Katrina were true soulmates, they have the same personality.

I don't agree, obviously. I did dislike how Ichabod was whenever Katrina was around. He did some detestable things to Abbie in Katrina's name - the map, the vote, etc.., but I don't believe that he's a psycho or an awful human. I do think he is flawed - he's arrogant and in S2, all we got was the arrogance without the genuine kindness that he also has. I'd also love to see him be a bit more self-less as well.

My hope is that in S3 we get more of the stuff we loved about him in S1 (the first half).

[Moonsky]

The analogy is a little hard because the apocalypse is a difficult equivalent and he is not unemployed by choice but yeah, this is pretty much my mental block here. I just need the writers to fix it somehow because even their friendship is becoming tenuous to me. It's hard to imagine that someone, who used to have options and possibilities and independence, like Abbie does not feel so restricted in her life now that she has to do everything with Crane in mind on top of them being Witnesses.The sad part is she is so duty bound that I feel like even if she got tired, she would't feel free to just express it, as she would want to keep team from imploding. It was easier with the CFD because it was clear that they were detracting from the mission but this would be more of a personal thing and that is a harder obstacle because last time was "it's not you it's them" but now it is him... I hope they figure it out though. I want to be enjoying the ride along with this team, I really freaking do. I am crossing my fingers, that's for sure.

 

Yeah unfortunately there is no way to do a direct analogy with a real life romantic relationship since time travelers & modern people relationships don’t exist. I was basically trying to show an example of a real life imbalanced romantic dynamic & what it might look like if the writers create a romantic relationship for Ichabbie without showing how it benefits them both. However that doesn’t mean people won’t romantically ship them regardless of the storyline the writers come up with because a good storyline & good characterization has never been a requirement that everyone needs to ship a couple. 

 

The writers room has always had a tendency to excuse Ichabod’s actions by having Abbie not really express her disappointment in him verbally or by her making excuses for him even when there was no need to let him off the hook easily, so unless the writers decide to deviate from the status quo more this season, any potential romantic relationship between them will most likely continue along the dynamic they currently have between them. Like I could seriously see this show doing a flashforward fifty years into the future, Ichabod doing something terrible that involves Abbie, & the writers being stuck on coming up with a valid excuse to let him off the hook, so they bring out the trusty excuse of him still being a man out of time who lost his family & friends & is still adjusting to his new surroundings as a way to excuse his actions & having Abbie cosign it.

 

I think Abbie’s storyline has looked draining at times because since the show started, she’s had a real job, witness responsibilities, & has been taking care of other people’s needs before her own. She’s also never really been giving adequate time to deal with & get over her losses like Ichabod has been afforded. Even though Ichabod had his own issues to deal with, besides his witness duties, he hasn’t had to shoulder as many other responsibilities as Abbie. Add to the fact that the writers found the time to give a man out of time a personal life outside of his scenes with Abbie but rarely showed her doing anything fun in the town she grew up in & even when she was shown to have a personal life he wasn’t far behind, it just made it even more clear that their individual storylines should be more balanced even though they need to be in scenes together.  Hopefully in season 3 Abbie will be given some of the benefits of a full storyline which include having a professional & personal life.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Moonsky

[CalamityBoPeep]

 

The writers room has always had a tendency to excuse Ichabod’s actions by having Abbie not really express her disappointment in him verbally or by her making excuses for him even when there was no need to let him off the hook easily, so unless the writers decide to deviate from the status quo more this season, any potential romantic relationship between them will most likely continue along the dynamic they currently have between them.

 

 

I agree with you that the show has been particularly shallow in giving Abby any kind of life whatsoever outside her witnessing duties, and I'd be thrilled to see them correct that.  I also very much want Ichabod to find a purpose for himself, maybe teaching at a community college or something.  Until he finds a purpose and feels useful in the world, he's always going to feel like an unworthy partner.

 

But I don't think it's necessary for Abby to always call him out verbally when he messes up.  For me, (and I'm very aware mileages may vary here), but when there is that kind of instant chemistry, and intense bond, sometimes you just actually don't need to say anything to get the point across.  She says so much with her looks, with her two or three word responses, with her general vibe.  And I see him respond to those mostly non-verbal cues, reading her pretty accurately.  

 

I don't need him to grovel.  I need him to notice when he's stepping in it with her, and self-correct, which he has done in the past, and did in the first episode of this season (iow, if we put the clusterfuck of the CFD behind us).  I accept that his colonial-speak is not him excusing himself.  His words were formal, and his tone clearly held genuine regret.  I don't need her to lecture.  I just need her to be free to react as she's feeling. That's one thing that has been consistent across all the episodes we've had so far.  Abby is never not reacting to what's going on around her.  Nicole Beharie always does an amazing job letting us know exactly what Abby's feeling and thinking when she's not speaking.  And Tom Mison does a great job reading those reactions and responding to them.

 

I like watching them, with the sound off... just watching the two of them, and reading their faces, sometimes.  It's pretty interesting.

 

I think Nicole's portrayal of Abby is very close to the way Nicole, herself, reacts in situations.  She seems to be the kind of person who will watch, wait, and examine what's going on in her own head, before giving voice to it.  And when she does speak it, she's brief and to the point.  I so admire a person like that, and a character like that is delightful to watch.  I never multi-task when dealing with a character like that, because multi-tasking means missing so, so much.  (Brings to mind another amazing actor who says so much with looks... Kyle Chandler!  "Damn, Julie." was the extent of one of his awesome lines, but man, did he get a lot across with those two words.)

 

Anyway... as I said... mileages certainly will vary.

Edited October 6, 2015 by CalamityBoPeep

[Indi]

Yeah - not what I saw at all. And the sweeping and swelling music that accompanied his face during that time certainly didn't point to annoyed. I saw his features soften and his gaze linger.

It was Abbie who looked annoyed when she snort-laughed at him, lol.

 

Both looked annoyed, in my opinion, with or without manipulative music. Abbie just happened to have good reason to look annoyed.

 

Is it possible that your dislike of Ichabod is coloring your view of that scene? I honestly don't understand how you arrived at "annoyed".

It's very possible, but that's what I saw. It's also possible that finding him ugly as sin prevents me from seeing him through rosy glasses. I do think he changed his expression later on to ingratiate himself with her though.

 

He didn't use the words, "I'm sorry", but he did say that his actions were "Very Regrettable". I think that was his apology - in his Colonial speak. Perhaps it wasn't enough for you - that's fair - but I do think that was the intention of what he said and I do believe he looked, sounded and seemed contrite in that moment with Abbie. Especially after she came at him for not even calling her the moment he got there.

 

He said he acquired a habit of ignoring her, which means he was perfectly comfortable doing so. He then said it was regrettable in the most impersonal way, which makes it a non-apology. I mean, if he can do harm directly, he can also apologize and make amends directly, but he never does, which means he is fine with being an asshole to her.

 

I also think that his purpose in going off and doing everything he did was to have a purpose. Meaning I don't think he felt worthy to be around Abbie if he didn't have a real "Witness" purpose. And he felt he didn't belong where she was anymore and the witness bond tying them together was gone. For him, being just her "friend" wasn't enough - he wanted to be connected even more to her as a witness. And based on their conversation in the pub at the end of the episode, he wanted to be closer to her as family. Abbie sensed that - which is why she reassured him that he belonged there with her and Jenny in the end. That he didn't need a "purpose" to be important to her.

 

Nothing about this makes any sense to me. Assuming I could call their a relationship a friendship (LOL, no), how is their Witness bond stronger, when he proved he didn't give a shit about that either? He had one priority only, Katrina. In fact, she might still be his priority if that necklace or Sexy!Smart!Betsy's not so subtle references to Katrina as his lady love are any indication.

 

It all comes around to the same old story. Ichabod just needs to look sad to be given everything. He never does anything, he never makes an effort to earn Abbie's trust or a place in that family. After all this time, it's Abbie, who relents, who gives him the umpteenth pass, who comforts him and who coddles his every whim. He whines, while she works hard to keep that relationship going. That's incredibly unhealthy for Abbie. She deserves so much better.

 

I think his plan was to go to Abbie herself with the tablets - but he got stopped at the border.

 

Why didn't he call her first, to tell her he was coming back? Did he just intend to impose his presence on her again?

 

I don't agree, obviously. I did dislike how Ichabod was whenever Katrina was around. He did some detestable things to Abbie in Katrina's name - the map, the vote, etc.., but I don't believe that he's a psycho or an awful human. I do think he is flawed - he's arrogant and in S2, all we got was the arrogance without the genuine kindness that he also has. I'd also love to see him be a bit more self-less as well.

Ah, the Katrina excuse! I wonder why Katrina was never given a pass or wasn't defended with the Ichy excuse for being just as terrible. Let's see how it works... She was fundamentally good and fought for the cause as hard as she could, but her infinite love for her husband and her son compelled her to take some questionable actions, for which she was eventually punished (unlike Ichy for anything ever). The greater good was always on her mind, but her husband gave her the cold shoulder for too long, so she finally snapped, when her son offered her his love. Impressive. She comes off better than Ichabod! Maybe they killed off the wrong Crane.

[CalamityBoPeep]

 

It's very possible, but that's what I saw. It's also possible that finding him ugly as sin prevents me from seeing him through rosy glasses. I do think he changed his expression later on to ingratiate himself with her though.

 

 

He said he acquired a habit of ignoring her, which means he was perfectly comfortable doing so. He then said it was regrettable in the most impersonal way, which makes it a non-apology. I mean, if he can do harm directly, he can also apologize and make amends directly, but he never does, which means he is fine with being an asshole to her.

 

To be fair, it doesn't seem like anyone here is seeing him through rosy glasses.  I think it's more that there are differing opinions on interpretations of what he's doing and how he's reacting.  For instance... where you saw an impersonal expression of regret, I saw an introvert looking inward, to understand his own motivations, before acknowledging his own deep regret for what he did.  He said "Initially it was that I required solitude... then it became a habit.  A deeply regrettable one."  As an introvert, that spoke to me.  I understand the need for solitude, and given the characterization of Abby and her careful nature, it seems that she would too.  Sometimes, unfortunately, it becomes really hard to break the silence when it's gone on for a while, and when there truly are things that one regrets about one's actions.  It gets tougher and tougher to show up.  I don't fault him for that, really, since I understand how the need for solitude to think could easily become a distance he was afraid to bridge.  Especially since he isn't at all sure what he brings to the table in the relationship, now that the witnessing duties have apparently ended.  From his perspective, Abby's moved on with her life, made a new place for herself, has the career she's always wanted... what does she need him for?

 

Where you're seeing arrogance, I'm seeing insecurity... not pleading for anyone to feel sorry for him, just trying to understand his motivation as well as hers.  It doesn't mean I'm cutting him more slack than her. When she kept the Orion secret from him, I saw the the same introspection coming from her, and the same reluctance to impose her presence on him, by asking for a bond that she feared might be broken.  That tends to be the way a less than totally confident introvert will think... that they are an imposition when they sense that the other person is fine without them.  That doesn't mean it's a good interpretation to take about oneself.  Just that it's understandable.

 

I don't think we're ever going to see a complete going-off-mission from Abby, or her letting Ichabod down.  When she got the tiniest bit secretive with him over the Orion fellow, people were peeved that she might need to apologize for that.  It's simpler, for the show, for the writers, to have Ichabod be the more flawed character in the partnership.  It's easier for the writers to stick with Abby forgiving Ichabod, than it would be for them to have to have Ichabod forgive Abby, when that scenario is just a minefield waiting to go off, as it did when the Orion incident happened.  At that point, there was a lot of defending Abby's behavior on the grounds that Ichabod had done so much that was crap in the partnership, that he deserved to have her go her own way.  Which may be fair, but is also not a pattern I'd enjoy watching play out repeatedly.  For me, keeping a constant scale of who is in the right and who is in the wrong would be a very unfun way to watch the show, and I'd quit.

 

My preference in all of this would be for neither to need to forgive the other.  I'd prefer to keep them on the same team, and not have outside influences draw them apart.  I want them to continue understanding the motivations and the insecurities of each other.  I've seen a lot worse behavior on other shows (cough *OUAT* cough) that needed true redemption rather than a propping up and handwaving of horrific behavior.  So a character simply being a flawed human being is pretty much ok with me.  (Which is not to say Season 2 CFD was ok with me.  It was not.  I'm mostly pretending that Goffman's hardon for SWMNBN never existed.)  I view the Ichabod character mostly through the lens of how he was in the first season, in which he was an interesting and somewhat flawed, man out of time, trying to find his way and deal with circumstances that were bound to throw him for a major internal loop.  I view Abby as a Capricorn, have from the beginning.  Generally steady, level-headed, practical, and always able to get the job done, whether her insides are a quivering mass of fear or not.  Her path is more sure, because she knows her purpose and has goals.  Ichabod is still flailing around for his.

Edited October 6, 2015 by CalamityBoPeep

[phoenics]

Indi - Given how Ichabod called Abbie to get him from that place - I still don't understand how you got that he was annoyed?

 

It's very possible, but that's what I saw. It's also possible that finding him ugly as sin prevents me from seeing him through rosy glasses.

LMAO! Oh I laughed a good 10 minutes at your "ugly as sin" comment. I don't find him that ugly, but I can see that you are very passionate about him being that ugly (to you)! LOL! Well played, Indi, lol. Well played. 

 

He said he acquired a habit of ignoring her, which means he was perfectly comfortable doing so. He then said it was regrettable in the most impersonal way, which makes it a non-apology. I mean, if he can do harm directly, he can also apologize and make amends directly, but he never does, which means he is fine with being an asshole to her.

I guess I took it more as he'd gotten into the habit of not contacting her - which isn't the same as ignoring her. That would mean that she'd reached out and he ignored her. I am not sure we can take that from what aired?

 

Nothing about this makes any sense to me. Assuming I could call their a relationship a friendship (LOL, no), how is their Witness bond stronger, when he proved he didn't give a shit about that either? He had one priority only, Katrina. In fact, she might still be his priority if that necklace or Sexy!Smart!Betsy's not so subtle references to Katrina as his lady love are any indication.

Meh - I don't see SBR as being his lady love - I think SBR's comments about Ichabod doing something impulsive for a woman are actually referring to Abbie. I'm prepared to be wrong, but I really don't think it's about Betsy at all. I don't think she'll be on the show past this season, if she even makes it through the whole season.

 

It all comes around to the same old story. Ichabod just needs to look sad to be given everything. He never does anything, he never makes an effort to earn Abbie's trust or a place in that family. After all this time, it's Abbie, who relents, who gives him the umpteenth pass, who comforts him and who coddles his every whim. He whines, while she works hard to keep that relationship going. That's incredibly unhealthy for Abbie. She deserves so much better.

I do agree that this show has a terrible habit of sweeping Ichabod's ugly under the carpet and forgiving him through Abbie just not making a big deal out of it. But I am trying to be fair and to let the new show runner give it a try. I did believe that Ichabod was contrite about disappearing like that. And I really do understand it. Having suffered some personal trauma, I've disappeared like that into my grief and my friends have had to come drag me back out into the light. Ichabod was out of touch and then it just got easier to stay that way because in order to come back, he'd have to get over all the guilt of just up and leaving and all of that. It's hard. Sure, it was a stupid, jerky thing to do, but I get it. He loved Katrina. I may hate that, but it's true, lol. But he clearly loved Abbie too - he saved HER and stabbed his wife to save Abbie. I can't just ignore that.

I would love it if the show delved into that at all - even having Ichabod speak to how when the chips were down, he chose Abbie over his wife - and what does that mean? That just... feels shippy to me.

 

Why didn't he call her first, to tell her he was coming back? Did he just intend to impose his presence on her again?

Dunno. My guess is that he wanted to come back with a purpose to prove they needed to be "together" as witnesses.

 

Ah, the Katrina excuse! I wonder why Katrina was never given a pass or wasn't defended with the Ichy excuse for being just as terrible. Let's see how it works... She was fundamentally good and fought for the cause as hard as she could, but her infinite love for her husband and her son compelled her to take some questionable actions, for which she was eventually punished (unlike Ichy for anything ever). The greater good was always on her mind, but her husband gave her the cold shoulder for too long, so she finally snapped, when her son offered her his love. Impressive. She comes off better than Ichabod! Maybe they killed off the wrong Crane.

I'm not really interested in bashing Katrina - but the issues with the character were beyond what you mentioned. I think most fans were pretty vocal in wanting BETTER for the character - for her to have real agency, etc.. and most of us fought for better storylines for her, not worse.

And actually - we spend more time being mad at Ichabod for how he acts than we do Katrina. Katrina was just a failure of a character - I'm not sure the comparison is a valid one. It's like you're comparing apples to oranges. I think everyone knows the problems with Katrina were the writing and the actress. And honestly, the fact that she was even in the show - she should have been killed off in the pilot as originally planned. Ichabod though is another story. No one is just forgiving him cold turkey and forgetting. I'm certainly not. I'm just cutting my losses and letting the new show runner prove that he's better than what we had before.

I think a lot of what we saw in I, Witness was the new show runner trying to write a "nuPilot" where Ichabod had to woo Abbie back to his side as a witness... and unfortunately the "dip" that Ichabod did made that a harder road for him.

I also agree with CalamityBoPeep - I guess I don't want to do the tit for tat with Ichabod anymore... or Abbie. I think if the show just acknowledges his flaws instead of whitewashing them we'd all be better off. But I don't really want to feel like the show is forcing me to compare because I'm so mad at Ichabod. I just want more of early S1 Ichabod back... without the whiplash we got from him in late S1 and S2.

Edited October 6, 2015 by phoenics

[HalcyonDays]

As an introvert, that spoke to me.  I understand the need for solitude, and given the characterization of Abby and her careful nature, it seems that she would too.

 

I totally get this (am also an introvert), but I'll take it one step more. I think Crane was experiencing a mild/modern depression. As someone whose gone through this too, that's what I think. I mean, this guy has been through a lot. In a span of a year+, he lost his home, family, friends lifestyle, "job", position of authority, ability to be independent and secure. Then he ends up somewhere that's unrecognizable to him, the people act weird, the speech is weird, etc. He's got no power, no control and suddenly his job is to go around not killing things to create the nation of America, but killing things that are directly targeting you and destroy the world.

 

On top of that, everything he did know as truth was outright lies, starting from the wife to everyone. He can't even trust what he knew as fact, what he knew as truth in his life. Now after so many lies and deceit, his own son and wife try to kill the only stabilizing force of truth and purpose he's known. The person he feels an upmost bond with, trusts implicitly was almost killed by his own family. The loss of hope of regaining part of his old life, plus the almost loss of the only person he feels a strong bond, coupled with the insanity of fast-forwarding through 200+ years ahead in the future would break anyone.

 

Anybody. The fact that Crane hasn't cracked (too much) is pretty impressive. He's "acting out", feeling shame for certain decisions, upset by Abbie almost being killed, is hobbled by regret and also fear and what his life is supposed to be. He's literally lost and trying to cope as well as he can.

 

That's how I see him. A lesser person would have cracked. I'm not saying he hasn't been a jerk at times, but everyone has. When we're tired, irritable, sad, depression, etc some of us withdraw into a safe coccoon, some of us lash out, but it's never purposely. It's frustration and desperation and feeling lost and alone. Crane has done all of this. It's all he has, otherwise he may as well check himself back into Tarrytown, because this man is due for a breakdown very soon.

 

As for him and Ichabbie. I ship this and I ship hard and what I see is a pair of people who bring out the best in each other. They really do. From Abbie's being emotionally closed off and throwing herself into work, from Crane being stiff upper lip and so reserved and had no trustworthy people in his life, they are good for each other. It'll take time for those "walls" on either side to come down and for them to realize it, but it will happen. But during the journey, they will help the other person discover things about themselves that will help each of them grow and become better people. Then (hopefully) realize that they really do belong together.

[phoenics]

^^^^^^^YES!!!!!! YES! YES!!! YES!!!!

I want to say more, but this kinda said it all.

What I liked about what happened with Ichabod last season at the end was that in order to preserve his future and Abbie's, he had to destroy his past (that was trying to kill them all). That's - rough. And yet he still did it. He made a choice and he has to live with it.

One of the things I loved about Ichabod is how you can see him trying so hard to adjust. I understood last season why he was such a jerk - because he was desperate to get back SOMETHING of what he'd lost. And Katrina/Jeremy were what he could grab onto. I also thought it was a terrible plot line because he was so awful to Abbie and I hated who he became in his quest to have all (he became overly self-involved and really unkind at times to Abbie and her feelings). My main issue with Katrina was that she simply shouldn't have existed at all on this show past the pilot and so every attempt by the writers to shoehorn her in destroyed characters left and right.

But now I want to just put ALL of that behind me and enjoy the show. And I have been enjoying it. Now that it doesn't feel like the writers are slapping me in the face or trying to put me and my Ichabbie shipping down and force Ichatrina on me like medicine (with a condescending "this is what's good for you"), NOW I can just sit and enjoy.

I can enjoy Abbie actually looking like a lead in her own show, right along with Ichabod.

And they are gonna be LIVING TOGETHER!!! Hahahahahahahahahhaha!!

*runs off screaming into the night*

[jhlipton]

*bows down, tosses roses, cries tears of relief and joy that someone gets it*

Intersectionality is a real thing and I hope EVERYONE who cries the "Yet Another Show" "keep them platonic for once" chant does the math you suggest and then, politely, picks another show (with two white leads) to push the "keep them platonic" narrative. Stop doing that with THIS show (and every other show with a black female lead and white male lead).

If (please, PLEASE, PLEASE) Minority Report lasts, I hope they don't hook up Vega and Dash.  Vega and her boss, OK; Vega and Arthur could be fun.  But not Vega  and Dash.

[Moonsky]

I agree with you that the show has been particularly shallow in giving Abby any kind of life whatsoever outside her witnessing duties, and I'd be thrilled to see them correct that.  I also very much want Ichabod to find a purpose for himself, maybe teaching at a community college or something.  Until he finds a purpose and feels useful in the world, he's always going to feel like an unworthy partner.

 

But I don't think it's necessary for Abby to always call him out verbally when he messes up.  For me, (and I'm very aware mileages may vary here), but when there is that kind of instant chemistry, and intense bond, sometimes you just actually don't need to say anything to get the point across.  She says so much with her looks, with her two or three word responses, with her general vibe.  And I see him respond to those mostly non-verbal cues, reading her pretty accurately.  

 

I don't need him to grovel.  I need him to notice when he's stepping in it with her, and self-correct, which he has done in the past, and did in the first episode of this season (iow, if we put the clusterfuck of the CFD behind us).  I accept that his colonial-speak is not him excusing himself.  His words were formal, and his tone clearly held genuine regret.  I don't need her to lecture.  I just need her to be free to react as she's feeling. That's one thing that has been consistent across all the episodes we've had so far.  Abby is never not reacting to what's going on around her.  Nicole Beharie always does an amazing job letting us know exactly what Abby's feeling and thinking when she's not speaking.  And Tom Mison does a great job reading those reactions and responding to them.

 

I like watching them, with the sound off... just watching the two of them, and reading their faces, sometimes.  It's pretty interesting.

 

I think Nicole's portrayal of Abby is very close to the way Nicole, herself, reacts in situations.  She seems to be the kind of person who will watch, wait, and examine what's going on in her own head, before giving voice to it.  And when she does speak it, she's brief and to the point.  I so admire a person like that, and a character like that is delightful to watch.  I never multi-task when dealing with a character like that, because multi-tasking means missing so, so much.  (Brings to mind another amazing actor who says so much with looks... Kyle Chandler!  "Damn, Julie." was the extent of one of his awesome lines, but man, did he get a lot across with those two words.)

 

Anyway... as I said... mileages certainly will vary.

 

Yes mileage will vary depending on how a person actually views the Ichabbie relationship. If a person doesn’t see that many issues with it, they might be more likely to excuse things that another person who has serious issues with it wouldn’t begin to let go. There were scenes during the first two seasons where Ichabod directed his anger towards Abbie regarding his new life, being kept in the dark by people back in his time, his marriage problems, problems with Henry, & his inability to fit into the modern world. He sometimes expressed this anger by either being extremely snarky with Abbie, snippy towards her, by raising his voice at her, or by throwing tantrums. Some people didn’t really take much offense to these incidents since they could empathize with his circumstances and/or because Abbie excused his behavior. Other people that did take offense to his behavior weren’t able to easily give him the benefit of the doubt even when taking into account his circumstances and/or because Abbie gave him passes.  To them he came off like a straight up asshole because instead of confronting the people who were the source of his issues or dealing with things in his past that Abbie had nothing to do with, he decided to take out his anger on the one person who had actually been kind, understanding, & truthful with him since he showed up in present day SH.

 

The issues that some people had with the way Ichabod was written when it came to dealing with Katrinas’s lies, deceptions & betrayals because they felt it made him look foolish, pathetic, weak, etc. are somewhat similar to the issues that other people have with the way Abbie is written when it comes to dealing with Ichabod’s betrayals & the way they believe he takes advantage of their partnership because they feel it makes her look foolish, pathetic, weak, etc.  Hell the writers even had her say in season 2 after being released from purgatory that Ichabod (not Jenny) was her weakness (& it was up to the audience to determine what she meant by that) & he replied to what Abbie had to say by asking her if she thought Katrina was his weakness.  So basically for some people Katrina is to Ichabod what Ichabod is to Abbie when they take into account the negative aspects of both relationships. Even though some people will be able to move on from the past issues they had with how the old showrunner wrote Ichabbie & will now allow the new showrunner to prove himself, others aren’t going to forget about the negative baggage they feel this relationship has acquired since season 1 just because there is a new showrunner. 

 

Nicole is good at nonverbal communication when it comes to expressing Abbie’s emotions even when the dialogue isn’t there but some viewers require more dialogue than others do to also express what a character is feeling. If a viewer is actually interested in having dialogue that expresses what they want to know then facial expressions aren’t going to be enough to satisfy them especially when many people will see the same facial expressions from an actor/actress & read different things into it. There are people that see some of Abbie’s facial expressions towards Ichabod & have already deduced that she’s in love with him or at the very least already has some romantic feelings for him while other people don’t read those facial expressions the same way & see no romantic undertones to them at all. Abbie shouldn’t feel the need to lecture Ichabod whenever he screws up or takes advantage of their friendship which he has done in the past.  Since he’s an adult & fancies himself a man of honor who is loyal to people (despite some betrayals that he’s already committed on others), I’d much rather he realize on his own that he shouldn’t be taking advantage of their relationship in the first place & if he does screw up, he checks himself first once he realizes what he’s done so that she doesn’t have to do it for him. Also when Ichabod does apologize for doing something wrong, he should actually mean it (since the writers haven’t allowed Abbie to hold him accountable for many of his negative actions towards her) because if he doesn’t learn from the things he’s done wrong or truly means it when he apologizes, then it’s just like a child who gets in trouble, apologizes to his parent to escape punishment but then later repeats similar bad behavior because he was never held accountable for that negative behavior the first time around or knows that his parent will never really hold him accountable no matter how many times he screws up.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Moonsky

[fantique]

CalamityBoPeep,

I agree with you (I mean the first post about not having Abbie call him out). Which is why I need the writers to recalibrate Crane. Because the problem with being so deliberate and reserved like Abbie is, and I certainly am like that as well, is that people take the silence for assent or at least lack of disapproval. For Ichabod to realise he's stepping in it, he has to be less focused on himself all the time. Abbie is extremely expressive when she feels strongly about things, so to not adjust his actions when it is clear how bothered/upset she is means he is either oblivious or he is in denial. 

As for him...self correcting if you will, I am sorry but at this point, his words mean very little to me. In fact the more he went on about their bond last season, the more worried I was about how he would fuck up within an episode or two of the declaration. I don't even know how they would go about showing me he is trying as opposed to just telling me. I guess stuff you do when you see that your friend is overwhelmed and that they might need help but won't ask for it? I really don't know but words are not enough at this point, that's for sure. Abbie might not even need help but at least he would be showing that he is trying to help as opposed to assuming all is well.

 

PS: just read other comments and Crane is not an introvert. Not even a little bit. and no, I don't subscribe to the "introverts are shy mice that are loners" since I am one. I am just lucky my lack of filter really makes it hard to not just blurt shit out and make my feelings known. I think the only characteristic that remains true regardless of personality traits I have observed  in introverts vs extroverts is what allows them to "psychologically/emotionally" recharge. All introverts I have known are people who need to recharge their batteries in peace and quiet. Being around people for too long periods of times exhausts us. And all extroverts I have known get super depressed if they are away from people for some time and gain new energy from being around people. Obviously this should all be looked at along a spectrum but that is the dividing line that seems the most accurate. 

 

This what the website for the MBTI (personality test, my profile was the Scientist which surprised absolutely no one lol) describes for both types.

 

 

 

Extraversion (E)
I like getting my energy from active involvement in events and having a lot of different activities. I'm excited when I'm around people and I like to energize other people. I like moving into action and making things happen. I generally feel at home in the world. I often understand a problem better when I can talk out loud about it and hear what others have to say.

The following statements generally apply to me:
I am seen as "outgoing" or as a "people person."
I feel comfortable in groups and like working in them.
I have a wide range of friends and know lots of people.
I sometimes jump too quickly into an activity and don't allow enough time to think it over.
Before I start a project, I sometimes forget to stop and get clear on what I want to do and why.

 

Introversion (I)
I like getting my energy from dealing with the ideas, pictures, memories, and reactions that are inside my head, in my inner world. I often prefer doing things alone or with one or two people I feel comfortable with. I take time to reflect so that I have a clear idea of what I'll be doing when I decide to act. Ideas are almost solid things for me. Sometimes I like the idea of something better than the real thing.

The following statements generally apply to me:
I am seen as "reflective" or "reserved."
I feel comfortable being alone and like things I can do on my own.
I prefer to know just a few people well.
I sometimes spend too much time reflecting and don't move into action quickly enough.
I sometimes forget to check with the outside world to see if my ideas really fit the experience.

This kind of fits both of them to a T for their respective profiles. Wow.

Edited October 6, 2015 by fantique

[phoenics]

If (please, PLEASE, PLEASE) Minority Report lasts, I hope they don't hook up Vega and Dash.  Vega and her boss, OK; Vega and Arthur could be fun.  But not Vega  and Dash.

Is Arthur the bad twin? I liked him with Vega. That's probably bad - but they were kinda hot.

Jury's still out on Dash. I think he's cute in an adorkable way - not sure yet about him and Vega. But I do love how they are clearly playing up Vega as a hot woman who is also a kick@ss cop. Sleepy Hollow I hope has gotten the memo about Abbie on that front now.

[kimberella]

Whoever called him a psycho or something like that in another thread was right on the money.

Narcissistic psychopath.

 

Yep, I see a lot of what's happening in the writing room reflected here. It's not surprising, because the show DOES insist every second on air, that Ichabod and his feelings are the priority, so it doesn't matter what he does or if he's causing others pain. His supposed depression calls for Abbie's feelings to be sidelined and for her to spring into action and make sure he is okay, like he always does with her. Oh wait, he never does!

 

I've even read some comments calling Abbie a bitch for not relenting fast enough. Not here, thankfully, but this kind of mindset is not surprising to me, because the writers are feeding it with gusto.

 

I am over the justifications for Crane. Honestly, I don't care that he left, a trip she probably paid, but it peeves me that he disregarded Abbie once again, when it was convenient for him. He, who insisted way too often about their bond, must have known how it must have hurt her to see someone, she considered a friend, dismiss her very existence like she was nothing. He didn't care once and forgot about her, but then he found his purpose and once again it included that pesky Abbie. Good thing he never has to worry, because, as always, she doesn't matter and accommodating him always comes first.

 

I don't want to be completely dismissive of Crane, but, seriously, I have to be practical here. So let's say poor Crane feels his Manpain deep in his soul, to the extent it must absolutely overshadow everyone else's feelings and it justifies: backstabbing Abbie repeatedly, the dismissal of every concern of hers, neglecting his job as Witness, so that he can be with his wife (but not doing anything to mend that relationship), actively hinder the fight against the apocalypse, let Abbie take care of him emotionally and financially. Wait a minute, something is not quite working here.

 

Even accepting the writers' view that Abbie is nothing but a work horse, whose only purpose is to serve Crane's character, I need to assume she is liked at least a little bit (for my sanity) and no one would like to see her in an abusive relationship, so why would anyone wish a man like him for her, a man, who gleefully invalidated Abbie's vote, after hearing from her the struggles black people had to go through, to get that right for themselves? There is pure malice in this and this is just one example.

 

Poor Crane feels displaced, like he doesn't belong and that's understandable (to a point)... but it's not Abbie's fault! Why does she have to do all the work there? He has done nothing to help in this situation. He's just gone with the flow, enjoying or disliking all the new stuff thrown at him, but he never actively worked hard to adapt. She has been paying his bills. supporting him with her money and her soul, but he never showed any gratitude, willingness to help or reciprocity. She had to juggle two jobs and take care of him and his wife and not once occurred to him to help her with this lot. There are quite a few jobs he could have given a try, a part time job at Starbucks or whatever, but no, that was beneath him. Whining about Katrina was a much worthier pastime, while he let a black woman work hard to keep them all. No wonder those slave-owning founding fathers were his heroes!

 

These aren't the actions of a man, who thinks himself unworthy of Abbie, like some are suggesting as an excuse for his lack of communication. These are the actions of a man, who thinks she is beneath him and his dismissal of Abbie during his walkabout makes more sense in this context.

 

She is not even his type! He has certainly never showed any attraction to her. Those things cannot be summoned at will, just because his One True Love is dead and he needs a warm body to replace her. I just find the idea of Abbie as poor replacement seriously abhorrent.

[Julia]

Leaving aside the horrible execution, a lot of what people are saying about Ichabod rings true to me about what had to be done to his character to fit him into the Katrina storyline they just had to have.

 

My reason for watching this show, again, was that this woman who makes a pretty neat metaphor for the America of the future (she's a WOC, she's a professional woman, she has a whole bunch of bad stuff in her past but she doesn't have the luxury of being neurotic about it (that would be Henry, another terrific metaphor), she keeps her own counsel, she prioritizes her career and her ability to support herself over her personal life although she does have one) and a man of the past (who was well-meaning for his day, but from a situation in life where he was trained not to see the inequities of his society, and so a pretty neat metaphor for progressive America) were dropped into a situation where they had to face a common enemy.

 

And Abbie was pretty consistent about ignoring his bitchiness while calling him hard on the stuff he said that was seriously wrong. Abbie reminds me of a lot of women I know, and I like those women, and I don't often see them on television. I felt the same way about Carter on POI.

 

Season 2 was horrible for a lot of reasons, but the one that drove me off was that Katrina represented the past Ichabod was moving past, and the showrunners were determined to push him back there. So, no? Not what I signed on for. But since we've established that Katrina was manipulating Ichabod on behalf of Moloch, and he did kill her in the end, I'm gonna say that he knows at this point that he behaved very badly. I'm even willing to handwave that he went away all that time because he was ashamed of it.

 

I want the show I was watching in Season 1. My head canon may not have even been the show they were making, but I really enjoyed it.