Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

Hecate7 · June 26, 2016

34 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

In Westeros weddings, the groom gives the bride his cloak and drapes it over her. In the books, Sandor has given Sansa his cloak twice: once when she needed something to cover herself after being stripped on Joffrey's orders, and the second time when he left it behind after Blackwater. At Blackwater, Sandor rips the kingsguard cloak off and leaves it behind for Sansa, who huddles under it. Sansa also keeps the cloak but can't explain why she does so. Book Sandor has symbolically married Sansa not once but twice. Sansa attaches some significance to the Blackwater incident, since she keeps the cloak but can't give a reason for doing so. Furthermore, by the time AFFC rolls around, the Blackwater incident has morphed into this romanticized version in her memory:

She also substitutes Sandor for Tyrion (her husband) when dreaming of her wedding night, shortly after she mistook Lothor for the Hound when he was rescuing her from Marillion:

When Myranda asks her if she knows what goes on in "the marriage bed," she thinks of "Tyrion, and the Hound and how he'd kissed her," again linking Sandor with Tyrion (her husband).

I don't know if it's leading anywhere, but to me at least it's difficult to dispute that there is a ton of SanSan subtext in the books. If we're talking endgame partners for Sansa, Sandor is the most likely and perhaps the only possible candidate.

As for the names being similar, I don't attach any particular significance to that, but Tyrion remembers Tysha telling him that their names go well together.

Ah. Until I read that he'd given her a cloak, I thought that was all sexual fantasies. But magic counts for a lot in this story, and the marriage cloak is magical. It also sort of explains why Sansa almost couldn't kneel to accept Tyrion's cloak. You win. Seriously--it's foreshadowed and is definitely there. I just missed it because I don't like it, but as we know, not liking something doesn't make it not part of the story.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Hecate7

nksarmi · June 26, 2016

Well the one thing I would say is that IF Sansa and Sandor are meant to be endgame - Martin did not let D&D in on that from the start because I have to say that I think Chris is right and they would have cast someone younger if that was the case. I mean the actor is older than the one who plays his older brother, the Mountain right? If they knew he would someday be paired with the VERY young Sansa, don't you think they would have gone for someone else? And don't get me wrong - I love the actor who plays Sandor. But I don't see any romance there on the show.

Of course, I've fully come to accept that the show might not be a very good clue for the books. So anything could happen in the books, but I would be very surprised if it happen on the show.

Eyes High · June 26, 2016

43 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Well the one thing I would say is that IF Sansa and Sandor are meant to be endgame - Martin did not let D&D in on that from the start because I have to say that I think Chris is right and they would have cast someone younger if that was the case. I mean the actor is older than the one who plays his older brother, the Mountain right? If they knew he would someday be paired with the VERY young Sansa, don't you think they would have gone for someone else? And don't get me wrong - I love the actor who plays Sandor. But I don't see any romance there on the show.

My impression is that D&D didn't know anything about the ending beyond the endgame ruler(s) for the first three seasons, as they didn't receive the endgame information dump until the spring of 2013. I'm pretty sure back in 2009 or 2010 or whenever they were casting the Hound, they didn't have any idea whom Sansa's endgame partner (if anyone) was going to be, unless of course Sansa is one of the endgame rulers (which I doubt for a number of reasons). As a result, I don't think anything about possible endgame SanSan can be read into that casting decision.

Advance35 · June 26, 2016

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Well the one thing I would say is that IF Sansa and Sandor are meant to be endgame - Martin did not let D&D in on that from the start because I have to say that I think Chris is right and they would have cast someone younger if that was the case. I mean the actor is older than the one who plays his older brother, the Mountain right? If they knew he would someday be paired with the VERY young Sansa, don't you think they would have gone for someone else? And don't get me wrong - I love the actor who plays Sandor. But I don't see any romance there on the show.

I don't think they are. I just don't buy it. I've been wrong about some things in the past but for some reason I honestly can't see it. Even if Sansa were to figure out that Sandor Clegane is her "true love" I just don't see them ending up together. Not GRRM's style at all. IF Sansa lives through everything and ends up with anyone, I think it will be someone who is a political advantage.

If she isn't going to make it, I hope she's around until the last season/book at least. She's the only interesting Stark.

Chris24601 · June 26, 2016

8 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Personally, I see Sansa's two most likely matches at the end of the series being Jon or Tyrion.

What's interesting about those two prospects in particular is that GRRM's original pitch involved a love triangle between Jon, Tyrion and an older Arya with the revelation of Jon's parentage being what resolved it.

A bunch of things have changed from that first pitch; for just two examples, Sansa did not marry Joffrey (who was originally the legitimate son of King Robert) and have his child nor did Cat survive the Red Wedding and flee North of the Wall with Arya. So it would not surprise me if, at some point in the development, Martin switched which of the Stark girls was involved in the triangle, particularly since in the books, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is still considered valid which hinders plans to marry her off to Harry the Heir (and would similarly be an obstacle for Jon/Sansa).

Such a switch is certainly just as likely as the speculation that Martin kept Jon/Arya but dropped the love triangle with Tyrion entirely (both are changes from the original outline so claiming one option has more weight than the other is flawed logic).

As for the Hound... the books also include a bit about a faceless giant (i.e. Mountainstien) and the Hound swirling about her, but the show has basically ignored any connection between Sansa and the Hound (while continuing to reinforce his connection to Arya even in this season) even after they learned of Sansa's actual endgame. Instead they moved Sansa up into Jon's orbit where she's been ever since (indeed, Jon and Sansa have shared scenes in every episode they've appeared in since their reunion in episode four) and are likely putting Arya back into the same general location the Hound was last seen (i.e. the Riverlands, possibly heading north). The only relationship this season's setup has favored is Jon/Sansa. Heck, Sandor/Arya is more likely based off the show's setup.

I think one of the reasons for that is because D&D were told who was going to end as the King/Queen in the end from the start of the series. I believe that Sansa is going to be Jon's queen and, if I'm right, then D&D would have known that SanSan was never going to amount to anything and so felt free to cast accordingly (ending up with someone easily old enough to be Sansa's father).

My hunch is that Sandor's actual role in the books will be to die protecting Sansa from the Mountain... probably killing his brother (likely by burning him and overcoming his fear of fire when it truly counts) and then dying in Sansa's arms after his heroic sacrifice. However, given the much greater focus on Arya and the Hound on the show, I would not be surprised if the show changed this to Sandor dying to defend Arya instead since he was never going to be Sansa's endgame anyway.

RedheadZombie · June 26, 2016

I re-watched the war council meeting in Battle of the Bastards, and I'm just not seeing Sansa in the way so many are. I'm specifically talking about the belief that Sansa didn't have the courage to speak up at the meeting, yet challenged Jon's strategy in private. There were also complaints that she critiqued his plans yet didn't present any strategy of her own. So basically, Sansa is called stealth, or stupid, or she's trying to undermine Jon, or she's too cold, or she's too full of her self, etc.

i saw Sansa remaining quiet while Davos and Tormund were present. She still doesn't know these two men very well, and she holds her opinion before them. I think there were several reasons. First, they are older men, and experienced men of war. Neither solicited her opinion. But there's also the fact that no matter how she's changed, she is still that proper lady, and she knows she could undermine Jon in front of his men if she challenged his authority. We saw this happen with Robb and Cat, and Robb paid the consequences. Sansa also knows that Jon was just murdered by his own men, which again adds to the desire to back him up publically.

What Sansa may not quite realize, is Tormund comes from people who respect women as warriors, and Davos is used to a red headed woman having a say in his war meetings.

I also don't think she was cold or contrary about Rickon's fate. It was after she saw Ramsay, saw his glee, and saw Shaggy Dog's head, that she realized Ramsay would never let him live. And while she couldn't strategize like a soldier, I think she fully understood that, and was simply telling Jon he was making a mistake in under estimating Ramsay. And she was right.

I think that raising her voice and being honest and forceful with Jon was a sign of that growing sibling bond. She felt comfortable enough to be blunt, and confident he would try to understand and not be alienated. And while she again pointed out that Jon's a bastard, she added that she was just a girl, and less than Rickon as well.

There's also a small moment when Sansa says she had told him to wait until a larger force, and Jon counters, when will that be? Sansa looks away and is flustered, and looks like she wants to tell Jon about LF so badly. So while her keeping the secret was a plot contrivance to give us a last minute rescue, I like that Sophie acted it as Sansa being torn and unsure.

And as to the speculation regarding how cold and dark Sansa is since she watched Ramsay's attack and smiled as she walked away, I remember that this was Sansa's first victory after everything that's happened to her. It's the first justice she's been given. With Ramsay's death she knows the monster can never hurt her or one of her loved ones again. But his death is also wrapped up in regaining her home, and reclaiming the life she had before all this hell happened. And while Rickon is dead, he's at peace and will be laid to rest where he belongs in their crypt. For the first time in years, she's surrounded by people she can trust, she's back in her home, and her life is moving in a positive direction. I think I would be smiling, too.

And as a comparison, Missandei had not problem watching Grey Worm slit the masters' throats. Tyrion was turned away to avoid watching, but she deliberately observed their deaths, and sashayed right by their corpses without a care. That doesn't mean she's cold or dark, it's a reflection of her experiences. As was Sansa's reaction.

RedheadZombie · June 26, 2016

I'm having a hard time quoting but I have a couple of thoughts about up thread posts.

When Sansa smiles after Robyn promises to throw all of her enemies through the moon door after they marry. First, I think it was partly - what a sweet yet creepy boy you are. He was acting like a little boy with a crush, and the smile was a little indulgent. It also seemed like Sansa was almost thinking cynically - you make these plans as if you actually believe you will grow up and rule your home and be happy. I thought the same, but now I know better. I think she knew there was no way she and Robyn would ever marry, therefore he would never need to kill her enemies.

As to Sansa as Elizaberh of York - For me the comparison would be more apt if Sansa were to stay married to Tyrion. The marriage would be merging two rival families, and their children would be a literal uniting. Jon himself is already two rival families merged, as well as a literal unification of those enemies.

Also - Upthread it was mentioned that Sansa couldn't really have children with Tyrion to continue the Stark line because they would be Lannisters. But this would be true of any man who father's Sansa's children. Joffrey seemed to consider himself Lannister as well as Baratheon. Cersei and Cat maintained their father's houses. And who's to say that Tyrion isnt willing to disavow his Lannister heritage at this point, and allow his children to be raised as Starks. Maybe Jon marries Dany or becomes her hand, leaving Sansa and her husband to rule Winterfell. I like this option so much more than incest with Jon, or marriage to the Hound.

Eyes High · June 26, 2016

7 hours ago, Advance35 said:

IF Sansa lives through everything and ends up with anyone, I think it will be someone who is a political advantage.

I disagree. Book Sansa has no interest in political marriages, and she is disenchanted with the idea of anyone marrying her for political reasons. At the end of AFFC, she thinks she doesn't want to marry again "now, and perhaps not ever." If she appears to play along with the Harry scheme, it's because she knows that she can't remarry as long as Tyrion is alive.

7 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

What's interesting about those two prospects in particular is that GRRM's original pitch involved a love triangle between Jon, Tyrion and an older Arya with the revelation of Jon's parentage being what resolved it. (...)

As for the Hound... the books also include a bit about a faceless giant (i.e. Mountainstien) and the Hound swirling about her, but the show has basically ignored any connection between Sansa and the Hound

The Outline Jon/Arya/Tyrion = ASOIAF Jon/Sansa/Tyrion argument would be more compelling if Sansa didn't exist as of the outline and Outline Arya had been split into two ASOIAF characters, but we know that she did. It would also be more compelling if it was Jon and Sansa in ASOIAF who had a very close relationship, but of course they have no virtually relationship in ASOIAF, as opposed to Jon and Arya who maintain an extremely close relationship in ASOIAF and are--indisputably, I think--each others' most important person.

The other thing about romance in ASOIAF is that when GRRM wants to pile on the subtext, he's not subtle about it. Jaime/Brienne is about as subtle as a brick to the head. SanSan is also completely unsubtle; the books are packed with SanSan subtext. When he wants to lay on the romance, GRRM's not shy or coy about it in the slightest. If Jon and Sansa have had no relationship in ASOIAF, I very much doubt it's because they're going to be the endgame romance. Trying to come up with ships for Sansa like Jon/Sansa while completely discounting SanSan seems to me the equivalent of searching for food by looking for crumbs underneath a heavily laden buffet table.

Finally, the show did try to do something with SanSan in Season 2, although they made a botch of it (that 2x03 scene, the 2x09 "you won't hurt me" scene, etc.). If you compare it with Jaime/Brienne, the show "basically ignored any connection" between Jaime and Brienne during their separation, other than Jaime staring dreamily at Tarth, and Brienne barely mentioned Jaime at all when they were apart. Once Jaime and Brienne were reunited, however, they had a very romantic scene full of shippy subtext, where both cast and crew confirmed the romance. I would expect something similar to happen with SanSan, and now that it seems likely that the BWB are headed north with Sandor in tow, I would expect that their romantic, shippy scene will be forthcoming as well.

4 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

As to Sansa as Elizaberh of York - For me the comparison would be more apt if Sansa were to stay married to Tyrion. The marriage would be merging two rival families, and their children would be a literal uniting. Jon himself is already two rival families merged, as well as a literal unification of those enemies.

I think it's a mistake to think that if the identities of Henry VII/Elizabeth of York in ASOIAF are cracked then the endgame will become clear. GRRM has always been very clear that although he was inspired by the WOTR, he's playing fast and loose with the history. Furthermore, the WOTR was resolved by a battle between the two sides, whereas in ASOIAF both sides will be facing an enormous existential battle with the WW that will likely claim most of the remaining potential claimants of the Iron Throne, so the WOTR can't really tell us anything about who's going to be left standing at the end of the ASOIAF zombie apocalypse. Lastly, just because there's an an endgame king and queen--assuming there is that pair--that doesn't mean that they're Henry VII/Elizabeth of York analogues.

While Henry VII married Elizabeth of York to solidify his claim, the marriage also unified the formerly warring houses, being the Lancasters (Lannisters) and the Yorks (Starks). The Targs aren't really at war with the Starks, at least not yet, and Jon probably wouldn't see himself needing to reconcile the Starks with the Targs via marriage, since he's a Stark himself. The Lannisters and the Starks, however, are still very much in conflict. Tyrion and Sansa's marriage didn't do much to reconcile the Lannisters and the Starks during the war--far from it, actually--but maybe when circumstances change, their union could be the one to bridge the gap between the formerly divided houses. (Assuming Sansa lives that long and ends up with someone other than Sandor, neither of which seems likely to me for the reasons I've stated.)

As for Henry VII, if it is someone, I'm not so sure it's supposed to be Jon. Dany works much better as a Henry VII figure: spent years in exile, gathered a ragtag band of foreign forces, won by conquering, linked with dragon symbolism, touted as a figure of prophecy, etc. etc. Jon could very well be her Elizabeth of York: someone with a claim to the throne (via R+L=J) she marries to solidify her own claim. Also, for what it's worth, I learned recently that Edward IV's nickname for Henry VII was "the imp."

Advance35 · June 26, 2016

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I disagree. Book Sansa has no interest in political marriages, and she is disenchanted with the idea of anyone marrying her for political reasons. At the end of AFFC, she thinks she doesn't want to marry again "now, and perhaps not ever." If she appears to play along with the Harry scheme, it's because she knows that she can't remarry as long as Tyrion is alive.

Again, I don't think Sansa WANTS to marry for politics but I think she will in the end. I think Sansa will be putting her "wants" aside for a variety of reasons. It's also why I don't think she will marry for love. Maybe she is in love with Sandor (I honestly don't see it but I'll hand wave) I don't think they are going to end up together, if she makes it and he doesn't, I'll expect Sansa is more concerned with helping to put things back together again. In the show, Sansa is still very aware of the former esteem held by House Stark and seems very interested in getting that back. All of the Starks seem to have gained skills in their trial by fire and I would say Sansa's is, coming to recognize and understand political currents, I hardly think that she's going to be sent to the backwoods local of a one clique hamlet where Sandor chops wood and she bakes meat pies.

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I re-watched the war council meeting in Battle of the Bastards, and I'm just not seeing Sansa in the way so many are. I'm specifically talking about the belief that Sansa didn't have the courage to speak up at the meeting, yet challenged Jon's strategy in private. There were also complaints that she critiqued his plans yet didn't present any strategy of her own. So basically, Sansa is called stealth, or stupid, or she's trying to undermine Jon, or she's too cold, or she's too full of her self, etc.

The girl is a lightening rod. I think she is the Stark that's jumpstarted the most conversation short of Robb and the Red Wedding. Hands down has to be the most controversial character in ASOIAF. Nobody is more discussed, more speculated on and to be honest more shipped. Which surprised the hell out of me. Jon, Tyrion, Sandor, Oberyn (??!!!), Miscellaneous Tyrells, Jaimie (??!!!). It was actually a discussion in my Media Studies class. I guess that makes a good character, when so many people have such strong feelings about her.

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A bunch of things have changed from that first pitch; for just two examples, Sansa did not marry Joffrey (who was originally the legitimate son of King Robert) and have his child nor did Cat survive the Red Wedding and flee North of the Wall with Arya. So it would not surprise me if, at some point in the development, Martin switched which of the Stark girls was involved in the triangle, particularly since in the books, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is still considered valid which hinders plans to marry her off to Harry the Heir (and would similarly be an obstacle for Jon/Sansa).

That surprised the hell out of me. That Cat was supposed to survive the Red Wedding. I'm still middle of the road in terms of Sansa's endgame but I did find it interesting that her character was catapulted up North so fast. Plus, before they really threw themselves into the Battle for Winterfell, I really appreciated Jon/Sansa on a level of pure character interaction. Him laughing at the fact that Sansa can barely keep Ale down and how he looked like he was trying to comprehend astrophysics theories when Sansa asked him if he liked her dress. lol. Other than Sansa, I've never found Stark characters to be interesting and I certainly, never expected them to be interesting together.

Funzlerks · June 26, 2016

What would attract Sansa to The Hound? She likes to talk and make fantastically embroidered clothing for herself and her family. Sandor likes to kill people with axes and scowl while not talking. And she would be marrying him to the detriment of her family's future. I feel Sandor served his purpose, which was to teach her that knights weren't what she thought they were.

I think Sansa didn't speak in the meeting because she was a little unsure of herself and worried she was out of her depth speaking about battles. She said as much. But she also was being very respectful to Jon. She disagreed with him and worried his plans weren't good enough and she spoke to him in private so as to look more of a team in public. I wonder, though, about all the behind the scenes focus on not trusting Jon. I feel like she trusts him more than she trusts anyone else. She just doesn't think he's perfect and have magical abilities to protect her no matter what the outside world throws at her.

I just saw The Man from U.N.C.L.E. and

Spoiler

The main characters kill a Ramsay-esque torturer by strapping him to his torture chair. It is played for laughs and the characters were a little upset that he wasn't tortured more before dying. Made me think of Sansa and how Ramsay deserved worse than what he got.

Eyes High · June 26, 2016

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Again, I don't think Sansa WANTS to marry for politics but I think she will in the end. I think Sansa will be putting her "wants" aside for a variety of reasons. It's also why I don't think she will marry for love.

I disagree. Sansa's arc seems to be moving Sansa from a situation of having no control over her life--including no control over whom she married--to being able to call the shots. If Book Sansa, who hates political marriages and hates the idea of being married for reasons other than love, has to marry someone she doesn't want to marry, even if she's not forced the way she was forced to marry Tyrion and it's more of a Cat marrying Ned situation, that would represent a step backwards for her. It doesn't mean that Sansa's choices won't blow up in her face, or that her choices might result in her own death--and indeed in grand Stark/Tully tradition the few times Sansa has truly called the shots in her own life she has more often than not made terrible choices--but they will be her choices made to further her own agenda, and these choices would include her choice of husband. It makes little sense to posit that when given a choice, Sansa, who doesn't want to be married for political reasons and who hates the idea that no one will marry her for love, would choose a political marriage. She's sampled the "delights" of a loveless marriage where she was married only for her claim and, not surprisingly, has found them wanting. I'm also guessing she's mindful of not wanting to wind up like Cersei, who blithely bitched about Robert to her and who told her that she wouldn't love Joffrey but that she would love his children.

Some have argued that Sansa would use her ability to choose her own husband to make a political match in order to benefit her family or to serve her own political ambitions, but Sansa doesn't have any political ambitions at present in the books and, when given a choice, Sansa's never been one for sacrificing what she wants for others' benefit when her romantic desires are involved. Book Sansa seems to me incapable of sacrificing her own wishes for the sake of the family or for personal ambition when given a choice; Margaery Tyrell she ain't.

I'm guessing TV Sansa, who unlike Book Sansa did choose to make a political marriage after Tyrion and had it blow up it her face in the most traumatic and painful fashion imaginable, and who has even more trust issues than Book Sansa, will be even less inclined than Book Sansa to marry for any reason other than love. Nor will she be inclined to enter into a legal relationship that would automatically give her husband the right to rape her whenever he felt like it, unless she absolutely trusted the man in question not to abuse that power. The only guys I think TV Sansa would ever feel comfortable endowing with that power over her, at least at present, would be Sandor (since she told him "You won't hurt me" and seemed to believe it) and Tyrion (who once had that power over her and didn't abuse it). TV Sansa doesn't trust Jon, even though I think she truly wants to, and probably never will.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Eyes High

Advance35 · June 26, 2016

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I disagree. Sansa's arc seems to be moving Sansa from a situation of having no control over her life--including no control over whom she married--to being able to call the shots. If Book Sansa, who hates political marriages and hates the idea of being married for reasons other than love, has to marry someone she doesn't want to marry, even if she's not forced the way she was forced to marry Tyrion and it's more of a Cat marrying Ned situation, that would represent a step backwards for her.

That is definitely a world away from how I see things. Sansa evolving to the point where she can see advantage beyond "romance" and "love" and still see the value and potential for genuine appreciation for potential advantages is something I would mark as strong character progression. Sansa being able to overcome sentiment is something she's still trying to learn in the books. The Nobles in this story have all been tremendously self-centered and selfish, I think Sansa may end up being one of the characters to realize that nobody can have it all. She hates the idea of marrying for reasons other than love but Sansa's still on her journey and I highly doubt the outlook she has on life at this point will be the same when we come to the end of this story.

As long as Sansa chooses her next husband (if there is one) she will have grown TREMENDOUSLY in my view. That she doesn't choose him based on "physical attraction" or any other superficial factors will be a sign of growth in itself. I feel like Sansa not making use of her knowledge of political currents and backroom dealings among the nobility would be like Bran mastering his mystical whatever but then retiring to Wintertown to be a Bar Keep. Or Dany making it to Westeros, subduing the Others and political opposition but deciding she doesn't want to rule but she'd rather be Kings Landing's premier seamstress, with a popular shop on "Pisswater Bend". It would just be so random.

Sansa's in obscurity now, if she survives two more books to remain in obscurity or RETURN to obscurity, that's what I would see as two steps forward and then 5 steps back. But I can tell we view the character herself very differently so there is no agreeing here. I would say the books will tell the tale but......... The show it is.

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What would attract Sansa to The Hound? She likes to talk and make fantastically embroidered clothing for herself and her family. Sandor likes to kill people with axes and scowl while not talking. And she would be marrying him to the detriment of her family's future. I feel Sandor served his purpose, which was to teach her that knights weren't what she thought they were.

Agreed. That kind of lack of commonality would be acceptable, probably to Sansa herself, if he came with some kind of advantage or if there was a reason. He doesn't and there isn't. I think he may end up saving her if she ever finds herself within proximity of Cersei and the Mountain but other than that, I can't see his narrative value moving forward.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Advance35

Maximum Taco · June 26, 2016

On 6/25/2016 at 1:05 AM, Eyes High said:

Lady took food from Sansa in a manner "as delicate as a queen." Lady's dead, and so I imagine is Sansa's chance for queenship of anything, be it the North or the Iron Throne. GRRM has also said that Sansa bears some responsibility for Ned's death. She won't end up as queen of Westeros when her pursuit of queenship in AGOT was partly responsible for Ned's demise. Likewise, she won't end up as queen in the North when her actions led to Ned's death. GRRM has also suggested that not only that Sansa is responsible for Lady's death but also that Lady's death means that Sansa is no longer a Stark. It seems extremely unlikely that Sansa will end up as queen in the North when the very symbol of her Stark identity, the thing that marks her as part of the ruling family of the North, her direwolf, is dead, and even dead as a result of her own actions.

I also viewed Lady's death as the death of Sansa's "Northern self." At the beginning she's already the least Northern of her siblings, she prefers the Faith of the Seven over the Old Gods, she likes dancing and singing and needlepoint, very Southern activities, she loves stories about knights, who are much more scarce in the North, and even her wolf, as opposed to being wild and free, is more like a dog, polite and well behaved and easily trained, and then dies on their way to King's Landing, bringing her fully into Southron intrigue. Of course based on the outline, we know that Sansa was intended to choose the South over the North and Joff over the Starks, so this kind of symbolism makes a lot of sense if she were to follow that path.

In the actual story, I don't think it means she's lost her Starkness forever, because from that point on she takes a severe turn towards more Northern sensibilities. She stops going to the sept and starts going to the godswood, she loses her love of singing (with a large assist from Marillion), and she becomes jaded and disillusioned with the prospect of knighthood and chivalry.

By the time we see her in ASOS/AFFC she holds no ambition but returning home to her roots. She begins, at least subconsciously, to emulate Jon, the most Northern of her siblings. "Alayne Stone is 14 like Jon, is bastard-brave like Jon, has no time for silly dancing like Jon."

I mean she builds a tiny Winterfell and defends it against it's attacker. If anything she's becoming more Stark-ish as things go on. To me this story feels like Sansa finding her way home.

Avaleigh · June 26, 2016

10 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I re-watched the war council meeting in Battle of the Bastards, and I'm just not seeing Sansa in the way so many are. I'm specifically talking about the belief that Sansa didn't have the courage to speak up at the meeting, yet challenged Jon's strategy in private. There were also complaints that she critiqued his plans yet didn't present any strategy of her own. So basically, Sansa is called stealth, or stupid, or she's trying to undermine Jon, or she's too cold, or she's too full of her self, etc.

i saw Sansa remaining quiet while Davos and Tormund were present. She still doesn't know these two men very well, and she holds her opinion before them. I think there were several reasons. First, they are older men, and experienced men of war. Neither solicited her opinion. But there's also the fact that no matter how she's changed, she is still that proper lady, and she knows she could undermine Jon in front of his men if she challenged his authority. We saw this happen with Robb and Cat, and Robb paid the consequences. Sansa also knows that Jon was just murdered by his own men, which again adds to the desire to back him up publically.

What Sansa may not quite realize, is Tormund comes from people who respect women as warriors, and Davos is used to a red headed woman having a say in his war meetings.

I also don't think she was cold or contrary about Rickon's fate. It was after she saw Ramsay, saw his glee, and saw Shaggy Dog's head, that she realized Ramsay would never let him live. And while she couldn't strategize like a soldier, I think she fully understood that, and was simply telling Jon he was making a mistake in under estimating Ramsay. And she was right.

I think that raising her voice and being honest and forceful with Jon was a sign of that growing sibling bond. She felt comfortable enough to be blunt, and confident he would try to understand and not be alienated. And while she again pointed out that Jon's a bastard, she added that she was just a girl, and less than Rickon as well.

There's also a small moment when Sansa says she had told him to wait until a larger force, and Jon counters, when will that be? Sansa looks away and is flustered, and looks like she wants to tell Jon about LF so badly. So while her keeping the secret was a plot contrivance to give us a last minute rescue, I like that Sophie acted it as Sansa being torn and unsure.

And as to the speculation regarding how cold and dark Sansa is since she watched Ramsay's attack and smiled as she walked away, I remember that this was Sansa's first victory after everything that's happened to her. It's the first justice she's been given. With Ramsay's death she knows the monster can never hurt her or one of her loved ones again. But his death is also wrapped up in regaining her home, and reclaiming the life she had before all this hell happened. And while Rickon is dead, he's at peace and will be laid to rest where he belongs in their crypt. For the first time in years, she's surrounded by people she can trust, she's back in her home, and her life is moving in a positive direction. I think I would be smiling, too.

And as a comparison, Missandei had not problem watching Grey Worm slit the masters' throats. Tyrion was turned away to avoid watching, but she deliberately observed their deaths, and sashayed right by their corpses without a care. That doesn't mean she's cold or dark, it's a reflection of her experiences. As was Sansa's reaction.

I don't have any problems with the dark smile. It was an awesome moment that I felt was earned and deserved. I cheered and watched it again.

I have been a constant defender of Sansa in all of the books and on seasons 1-5. When people were blaming her for her rape and for supposedly being "too dumb to live" I saw red and defended her.

This is the first season where Sansa flat out got under my skin with her attitude.

My issues with Sansa this season are to do with her treatment of Jon, her attitude during the recruitment of northern troops, and her attitude towards Davos regarding the recruitment of the troops.

I can understand why Sansa would remain silent until she and Jon were alone. That's a fair point. What I didn't like was how she acted upset with Jon for not asking for her insight as though he hasn't been treating her as an equal member of their alliance or has been behaving as though he doesn't value her opinion. We've seen him listening to Sansa along with everyone else back during that first group discussion at Castle Black. If someone had just come in and watched the scene of Sansa getting upset with Jon for not asking for her insight, they'd think that Jon was treating her as some dumb girl who doesn't have anything to offer and that hasn't been the case at all. Not only that but Jon apologizes and immediately wants to hear what she has to say, and she's still behaving as though she's upset with him.

The reason she annoyed me in her changed attitude with regard to rescuing Rickon is that she isn't acknowledging her changed attitude. She swayed Jon into fighting when he was reluctant and feeling burnt out on fighting in general. She tells him that they have to fight to rescue their brother. Fair enough that her mind changed after seeing Ramsay again and getting a glimpse of Shaggydog's head. She doesn't present it that way though. She's acting like this is an example of Jon not knowing Ramsay and doesn't acknowledge that she was the one who made Jon think that there was a chance in getting Rickon back and that they needed to at least try to fight for him. She was willing to fight for Rickon and Winterfell on her own if necessary. Instead of saying something like, "At first I thought we might have had a chance at saving Rickon, but seeing Ramsay again has reminded me what kind of person he is. I was wrong to think that he'd ever let Rickon live, I just didn't want to believe it. I was stupid to hope that we could save him.'

Sansa makes it seem like Jon has his head in the clouds for thinking that they might be able to still save Rickon and uses this as proof about how he doesn't know Ramsay. She doesn't acknowledge that she never once mentioned something that she would have known all along: that Ramsay is the type of person who would never let Rickon live.

I haven't had any issues with any of the times Sansa has mentioned Jon's bastard status. I understand why she has each time and think that Jon gets it too. This isn't one of my problems with her.

Sansa insists that they don't have enough men, has a possible solution, but doesn't feel that Jon has earned her trust or loyalty in spite of the fact that he's shown that he's willing to die for her if necessary. I just can't help but see that as being extremely disloyal. Jon is willing to give everything to help save Sansa but she does things to indicate that she isn't willing to do the same. Not only that but she gives Jon shit for not being capable of protecting her or himself. If ever there was a wrong time to say something like that to the one family member she has left who is willing to fight for her and die if necessary.

Sansa could have shared her fears and doubts that the Vale soldiers wouldn't come through, but I feel she owed it to Jon to be straightforward with him. Imagine if Jon had excluded Sansa from the war council sessions? I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't have liked that at all.

I completely agree with your thoughts on Sansa's dark smile.

Sansa's comment about Davos having success in swaying a ten year old just made me want to throw a pie in her face. Like she seriously doesn't remember how she utterly failed in dealing with that same ten year old?

I also notice that people constantly mock and crap on Dany everytime she goes on about how she's going to take back what belongs to her because she's a special Targaryen. Sansa's argument is that she's a special Stark and northern people should automatically be loyal to her because of her name. She gives no other reasons for why the northern characters should want to support House Stark and how it's genuinely in their interest to do so. She claims to understand the north and northerners but doesn't understand multiple northern characters and families. The Glover and Mormont scenes are proof of that. Instead of reminding this guy that it's a two way street and that the Starks have been loyal to the Glovers for however many centuries or thousands of years she tells him that he's sworn to her house and that's that. No acknowledgement that the Glovers feel they have legitimate grievances and feel they've suffered for being loyal to the Starks. No apologies, no acknowledgment that she understands why he's upset. I think that book!Sansa is very good at understanding people and feeling sympathy for them and I don't see as much of this in show Sansa.

Sansa's attitude towards the northerners and her supposed understanding of them wouldn't annoy me as much if she weren't also making it seem like Davos is some dumb foreigner who just doesn't get it how superior most northern men are.

Davos seems to have a better grasp of the issue with the Karstarks than Sansa did. Sansa's opinion on the Karstarks was entirely steeped in prejudice (northern men are supposedly "more loyal" than other men even though there is no evidence of this) and an acceptance of the idea that the Stark name is ultimately the only thing that matters. Davos on the other hand at least attemtped to see where the Karstarks might be coming from emotionally. (Sidenote: I think everyone from House Karstark save Alys sucks. Rickard Karstark was an asshole on the show and in the books and I have no sympathy for him.) Where I take issue with Sansa is her refusal to look at any of the mistakes that her family has made so that she can learn from them. She doesn't think about bad choices that Robb and her parents made. I think it's obvious that in her mind the Starks are 100% innocent victims who have never done a thing wrong and I just don't agree.

Chris24601 · June 26, 2016

41 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

If anything she's becoming more Stark-ish as things go on. To me this story feels like Sansa finding her way home.

Agreed... and one of the biggest cases for her survival and remaining at Winterfell is precisely because the narrative of the one least appreciative of their home (she started out dreaming of going to become the lady of some southern castle and never seeing the North again) becoming the one most appreciative of it in the end is both a timeless classical arc and because the nature of a circular narrative always brings us back to the start of the story (Winterfell in this case).

The biggest problem with SanSan as an ending is that it basically strips away so much of Sansa's growth. The storybooks she started out believing in were all about ladies marrying for love and everything all working out. Heck, that same naive belief is probably what led Lyanna to run off with Rhaegar and resulted in most of her family getting killed.

Sansa knows better now. Her throwing away her family and home to run off with some guy for 'true love' is something 11-year old Sansa at the start of her story would do... not the practical young woman she's grown into.

Eyes High · June 26, 2016

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

In the actual story, I don't think it means she's lost her Starkness forever, because from that point on she takes a severe turn towards more Northern sensibilities. She stops going to the sept and starts going to the godswood, she loses her love of singing (with a large assist from Marillion), and she becomes jaded and disillusioned with the prospect of knighthood and chivalry.

Just because Sansa thinks more fondly of her Northern roots doesn't mean she can get back to them. That was the real poignancy of the snow castle scene to me: Sansa only appreciates her home when she has lost it (you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone, etc. etc.). Lady's death is irreversible, and so, too, is the loss of her Starkness, or at least that's where GRRM seems to be going with this. Many ASOIAF characters pine after things or people that are permanently lost to them. Jaime deeply mourns his sword hand, but that doesn't mean it's going to grow back. Sansa's connection to her Starkness has been brutally amputated in similar fashion, and as sad as she may be about losing the North--and for all the talk about how Sansa is hewing closer to her northern roots and disdaining the south, she didn't seem all that sad about the southern domestic paradise at Highgarden she envisioned in ASOS when a match with Willas was proposed--that doesn't mean she can get it back. If my interpretation is correct--and GRRM's comments appear to suggest that it is--Sansa's home in the North is lost to her as much as Lady. That doesn't mean she won't stay at Winterfell for a time in the books, but it will never be and can never be hers again. As I said upthread, according to the books and to GRRM Sansa became an UnStark the moment she lost Lady, and all the snow castles in the world won't change that.

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I don't have any problems with the dark smile. It was an awesome moment that I felt was earned and deserved. I cheered and watched it again.

I think part of the problem is that Sansa smiling at her enemy's gruesome death seems at odds with a popular perception in certain quarters of the fandom of Book Sansa as this font of endless, superhuman compassion and kindness, which is not who Book Sansa is at all. She is not and never has been a saintly angel of empathy, gentleness and mercy. Book Sansa has her moments, certainly, as she has shown kindness to the Hound and Lancel, but she can be nasty, vengeful and vindictive as well. She's the same person who wishes she and Petyr could crush the Lords Declarant "like ants," who hopes Joffrey will trip and die at the PW, who after hearing Harrenhal is cursed suggests it should be given to Walder Frey, and who secretly wishes she could slap Sweetrobin when he's being a brat. Book Sansa's last words to Arya in AGOT are that Arya should marry Hodor since he's stupid and hairy and ugly like Arya, which happens after Arya tries to comfort Sansa. Sansa's moments of kindness don't count all that much anyway as proof of her superior moral character, since in ASOIAF even noted assholes like Tyrion, Theon, Sandor and Jaime have moments of kindness. She's not an angel but a regular human, and humans tend to enjoy it when people who've caused them a lot of terrible suffering get a taste of their own medicine. Makes sense.

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The biggest problem with SanSan as an ending is that it basically strips away so much of Sansa's growth.

AGOT Sansa started out obsessed with becoming queen and with superficial appearances, being mindful of social distinctions (thus her carefully referring to Jon as "half-brother," which as we learn Jon did not at all appreciate). AGOT Sansa shudders at the sort of people Arya hangs out with, since Arya pals around with all manner of people with no mind to class distinctions. AGOT Sansa also ignores Joffrey's obvious character defects because he fits her image of what she should want (handsome prince, etc. etc.) and provides the path to queenship. If in the end she freely chooses Sandor, who lacks Joffrey's looks and status, for love, even though he's a scarred nobody who can bring her no advantages, and decides to turn her back on status and superficial appearances in favour of real love, that would represent Sansa coming full circle and would represent the culmination of her growth as a character. Moreover, it would represent the fulfilment of AGOT Robert's "prophecy" for Sansa ("get her a dog, she'll be happier for it") as well as AFFC Jaime's "prophecy" for her ("if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark, etc. etc."). Sansa loses her "wolf," aka her Stark identity, but gets a "dog" (Sandor) and is ultimately happier for it.

It also seems that Sansa masquerading for a prolonged period of time as a bastard could be acclimatizing her to getting by without the benefit of her trueborn, highborn status. I think in the original five year jump plan Sansa was going to be a bastard in the Vale for five years. Living for that amount of time as a bastard might be a warmup for when she chucks it all and runs off with Sandor.

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Sansa knows better now. Her throwing away her family and home to run off with some guy for 'true love' is something 11-year old Sansa at the start of her story would do... not the practical young woman she's grown into.

Sansa's storyline, I think, is about her going from having no control over her life to having control over her life and getting what she wants. There is a lot of subtext in the books to indicate that she wants Sandor. She even thinks that Lothor, who is linked in her mind to the Hound (ever since Lothor saved her from Marillion), a lowborn man, would be a good match for a bastard like Mya Stone, and speculates about Lothor's interest in Mya. Myranda asks her about sex, and she thinks of how the Hound kissed her. She might already be thinking, albeit on a subconscious level, about the Hound's suitability as a romantic partner. He's already the hero of her romanticized memory of Blackwater who "took a song and a kiss and left her with nothing but a bloody cloak."

Edited June 26, 2016 by Eyes High

Maximum Taco · June 26, 2016

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Just because Sansa thinks more fondly of her Northern roots doesn't mean she can get back to them. That was the real poignancy of the snow castle scene to me: Sansa only appreciates her home when she has lost it (you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone, etc. etc.). Lady's death is irreversible, and so, too, is the loss of her Starkness, or at least that's where GRRM seems to be going with this. Many ASOIAF characters pine after things or people that are permanently lost to them. Jaime deeply mourns his sword hand, but that doesn't mean it's going to grow back. Sansa's connection to her Starkness has been brutally amputated in similar fashion, and as sad as she may be about losing the North--and for all the talk about how Sansa is hewing closer to her northern roots and disdaining the south, she didn't seem all that sad about the southern domestic paradise at Highgarden she envisioned in ASOS when a match with Willas was proposed--that doesn't mean she can get it back. If my interpretation is correct--and GRRM's comments appear to suggest that it is--Sansa's home in the North is lost to her as much as Lady. That doesn't mean she won't stay at Winterfell for a time in the books, but it will never be and can never be hers again. As I said upthread, according to the books and to GRRM Sansa became an UnStark the moment she lost Lady, and all the snow castles in the world won't change that.

You can argue right back, that just because you lose something once doesn't mean you can never get it back. I suppose we'll see, but nothing GRRM has said makes me believe that Sansa's Starkness is lost to her forever. The way he's written the story, and the path the show is taking leads me to believe that this is about Sansa finding her way home, and about her trying to get back what she lost.

Will she be successful? I don't know, but I haven't seen anything to make me believe that it's impossible.

RedheadZombie · June 26, 2016

Sansa and the Hound is very Beauty and the Beast, except this one isn't turning into a handsome prince. As a primary show watcher, I'm not really seeing it, although I loved that he rescued her twice. He rescued Arya as well. Maybe he'll end up at Winterfell as a devoted protector to the sisters. I just don't see him farting, belching, fuck this, cunt that, and lord of Winterfell.

I agree that Sansa is a lightning rod. and it seems that her worse offenses posted here are for offending Jon or Davos, or used to defend Dany. Since I love all four characters, I feel I can't take one side over another. I think both Jon and Sansa are right in their own way. I think it's fair that Sansa wouldn't trust Stannis's number one, he's a stranger. I didn't like him as much when he started his whole "Stannis Baratheon, the one true King" spiel. Sansa didn't see his devotion to Shireen. Maybe she absorbed some of Brienne's reactions, and Brienne wasn't enamored by Davos or Tormund. And on that thought, wasn't Sansa more vocal in that first meeting? Perhaps Brienne's presence lends her confidence.

I can defend all four, as well as Arya. They've each survived in their own way. I don't think Arya would have survived Sansa's path, and I'm pretty sure Sansa wouldn't have survived Arya's experiences. It's also hard for me to understand all the attacks directed at any of the Starks when there are so many full on villains.

It's possible the show ends without telling us Sansa's future husband. I'm sure Martin wants to reveal some of this on his own time.

Avaleigh · June 26, 2016

27 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Sansa and the Hound is very Beauty and the Beast, except this one isn't turning into a handsome prince. As a primary show watcher, I'm not really seeing it, although I loved that he rescued her twice. He rescued Arya as well. Maybe he'll end up at Winterfell as a devoted protector to the sisters. I just don't see him farting, belching, fuck this, cunt that, and lord of Winterfell.

I agree that Sansa is a lightning rod. and it seems that her worse offenses posted here are for offending Jon or Davos, or used to defend Dany. Since I love all four characters, I feel I can't take one side over another. I think both Jon and Sansa are right in their own way. I think it's fair that Sansa wouldn't trust Stannis's number one, he's a stranger. I didn't like him as much when he started his whole "Stannis Baratheon, the one true King" spiel. Sansa didn't see his devotion to Shireen. Maybe she absorbed some of Brienne's reactions, and Brienne wasn't enamored by Davos or Tormund. And on that thought, wasn't Sansa more vocal in that first meeting? Perhaps Brienne's presence lends her confidence.

I can defend all four, as well as Arya. They've each survived in their own way. I don't think Arya would have survived Sansa's path, and I'm pretty sure Sansa wouldn't have survived Arya's experiences. It's also hard for me to understand all the attacks directed at any of the Starks when there are so many full on villains.

It's possible the show ends without telling us Sansa's future husband. I'm sure Martin wants to reveal some of this on his own time.

I can understand why people see Beauty and the Beast parallels with Sandor and Sansa but I don't think it means that they're ever going to have a romantic relationship. I agree too that if SanSan was the end game that they would have cast a different actor. I think the Hound might save Sansa's life again but that's as far as it will go.

Just to clarify, I like all four mentioned characters too.

With Davos, it isn't about Sansa not trusting him. That's perfectly understandable and reasonable and I agree that it's likely that Brienne's attitude has rubbed off on her. The issue of Sansa's attitude with Davos is the way she treats him like he's an incompetent who isn't bringing anything valuable to their side. She isn't respectful at all of the fact that here's another guy who is willing to put his life on the line to help her achieve her goal of taking back her family home. When she's able to dismiss the way Davos is able to succeed with Lyanna Mormont, considering the fact that she herself just failed in persuading Lyanna, it makes her seem arrogant, foolish, and ungrateful to boot. When Davos explains why the Karstarks have issues with the Starks, Sansa's reaction is imply to the room that Davos basically doesn't know what he's talking about because he isn't a northerner. (Imagine if Davos had said to Sansa, 'How well do you understand military tactics, my Lady?' Wouldn't she have been a little irritated even if it's true? Sansa's comment was both unnecessary and obviously inaccurate.) Sansa that thinks she knows better even though Davos gives logical reasons for why the Karstarks are currently more inclined to support the Boltons over the Starks.

That's what I find to be irritating. I'm not expecting her to trust Davos, I just don't understand her criticism and overall lack of respect and gratitude when it comes to one of the main guys who is trying to help her. She can be suspicious and not trust him without giving off all of the extra attitude and snottiness.

With Jon, it isn't about Sansa "offending" him for me. It's about her not being as loyal to him as he is to her on top of telling him that he's incapable of protecting himself or her on the eve of the battle for their lives. She makes it seem like Jon doesn't value her opinion even though we've seen the very opposite. It's a lack of loyalty that I see on Sansa's part and it's extra annoying when she goes on about how loyal northerners are. (It's funny too that they end up getting their asses saved by a bunch of loyal southron characters. I sincerely hope that Sansa changes her opinion on northerners being more superior in terms of loyalty because that's a bunch of bullshit from what we've seen on the show (and the books). There are loyal and disloyal men all over the place and the North isn't any different in this regard.)

Also, I wasn't trying to defend Dany. I was comparing the reactions to the two characters because it speaks to something bigger in the fandom, mainly that it's okay for the Starks to be super special but isn't okay for the Targaryens. It's okay for Sansa to take great pride in her name and blood and use that as justification for why she should have a particular castle and kingdom but when Dany does it, it seems to irritate and even enrage a big chunk of the fandom.

The reactions to dragons and direwolves are similar. People love the direwolves and their connections to the Starks. People are fine with the idea of wargs and greenseers needing the blood of the First Men but mention that the situation is probably similar with Valyrians and dragons, and suddenly the blood ties aren't okay even when we have a character like Marwyn talking about how the Valyrians were only into magic that involved fire and/or blood.

I think Sansa and Dany are both understandable in terms of why they want to fight to take back what's theirs by the laws of their world. I don't think that one character is better than the other on that score.

RedheadZombie · June 26, 2016

I agree about Sansa and Dany. Maybe there's a small difference in that Sansa actually grew up in her home, whereas Dany never lived in KL. Also, the Starks lost Winterfell through other's betrayal, while the Targaryens lost KL through their own insanity and destruction.

But I've always understood TV Dany. And I've always understood her quest. Sure there's some arrogance there, and maybe some entitlement, but the same is true of any monarch.

Advance35 · June 27, 2016

Ok that was some episode. I always breathe a sigh of relief when Sansa makes it through a Season Finale.

She had wonderful scenes this episode with two of her best characters, Jon and Littlefinger.

I liked that Jon didn't blast Sansa when she admitted she was wrong to keep the knowledge of the Vale Troops from him. I think Jon knows what she's going through in that he clearly recognizes that she's damaged. And he didn't just ASSUME Sansa would trust him at this point, he just asked her. ST and Kit have DISTURBING chemistry in that it's REALLY inappropriate.

LF professing his love for Sansa surprised me. I guess as much as Littlefinger can love. But power isn't what Sansa is after. I'm not sure she knows what she wants at this point. I got the impression she's really finally taking the time to mourn everything that's happened over the past few years. She looked heartbroken when she was sitting in the Godswood. She and LF also have wonderful chemistry but I can say that about just about everyone she's interacted with. Jon, Tyrion, Ramsay, LF. I don't think LF is anywhere NEAR done with Sansa yet but I am glad that Jon knows that LF is not an ally or a friend. He knew LF gave Sansa to Ramsay but he has to much influence in the Vale and over Lord Robyn for them to kill him or dismiss him. Sansa looked VERY worried when she and LF made eye contact during the scene when Jon is made King in the North.

So Sansa has LF to worry about and it will be interesting to see who gets Cersei's attention. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes or Sansa. I'm excited and fearful for Sansa's future.

Eyes High · June 27, 2016

58 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

ST and Kit have DISTURBING chemistry in that it's REALLY inappropriate.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, Jon and Sansa will almost certainly be at odds next season, as this video hints pretty baldly.

SeanC · June 27, 2016

30 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Well, if it makes you feel any better, Jon and Sansa will almost certainly be at odds next season, as this video hints pretty baldly.

Scenes of intense personal struggle just highlight inappropriate chemistry for many people, heh.

They're pretty obviously setting up Baelish's last play, so to speak, which will be trying to pit Sansa and Jon against each other. Given that it wouldn't be much of a drama otherwise, probably he'll have some initial success, before his luck runs out.

Though one of the weird things about this tension is that the writers/actors evidently view this as resulting, aside from Baelish's manipulations, in good part from Jon's inability to manage his relationship with her. In the Inside the Episode, one of the producers (I confess I can never keep straight which is which) repeats that Sansa had a problem with being ignored in the 609 strategizing scene where nobody asked her opinion, so it seems like they consider that a legitimate gripe. But...we saw a previous strategizing scene in 605 where Sansa had no problem speaking up and people listened fine (even though the advice she had was wrong). I don't think the dynamic the writers evidently feel they're putting onscreen is quite coming across here.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SeanC

Eyes High · June 27, 2016

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Scenes of intense personal struggle just highlight inappropriate chemistry for many people, heh.

They're pretty obviously setting up Baelish's last play, so to speaker, which will be trying to pit Sansa and Jon against each other. Given that it wouldn't be much of a drama otherwise, probably he'll have some initial success, before his luck runs out.

Though one of the weird things about this tension is that the writers/actors evidently view this as resulting, aside from Baelish's manipulations, in good part from Jon's inability to manage his relationship with her. In the Inside the Episode, one of the producers (I confess I can never keep straight which is which) repeats that Sansa had a problem with being ignored in the 609 strategizing scene where nobody asked her opinion, so it seems like they consider that a legitimate gripe. But...we saw a previous strategizing scene in 605 where Sansa had no problem speaking up and people listened fine (even though the advice she had was wrong). I don't think the dynamic the writers evidently feel they're putting onscreen is quite coming across here.

It seemed telling that Sansa's rejection of Baelish came before the KITN scene and not after. It seems that this conflict is playing out like things did earlier in the season: Sansa tells LF to get bent, doubt is planted in her mind about Jon, and she comes crawling back, giving LF his in.

I agree that what appears to be Jon and Sansa's coming rift will be caused as much by Jon's failure to understand his sister's emotional state as by Littlefinger's manipulations. Jon doesn't seem to know what Sansa needs, despite it being pretty simple (to feel valued, respected, and appreciated). I don't recall Jon being this emotionally obtuse in earlier seasons, so it seems to be a plot contrivance to drum up conflict between them.

Oscirus · June 27, 2016

I think Sansa's suffering from lack of validation. She's feeling unappreciated and I doubt she'll get the validation she seeks in Winterfell. Where she goes from here will be anybody's guess.

arjumand · June 27, 2016

12 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I think Sansa's suffering from lack of validation. She's feeling unappreciated and I doubt she'll get the validation she seeks in Winterfell. Where she goes from here will be anybody's guess.

I didn't get that at all from the first viewing of the episode, and what with BTS comments from the actors etc, I thought I'd watched it wrong.

So I went to the scene again, and no, I got it right first time. Sansa is smiling a small smile all the way through the King in the North scene, and at no point does she suggest by her body language that she thinks it's hers by right. The only time she stops smiling is when she catches LFs eye and sees that he isn't pleased. That look on her face - that's worry, not resentment. Because LF has just showed his hand with her, big time. He told her about his future plans, and told her what he thought would happen. And he was wrong.

Also, I'm supposed to believe the actors and the showrunners, the ones who spent a whole year trying to convince everyone of the deadness of Jon Snow? I don't think so. We're being told about the coming Jon/Sansa conflict because they believe that there has to be conflict everywhere! to get audiences back.

Sansa wanted her home back - she got it. She wanted Ramsey dead - she got that too. The only thing she's worried about now is LF and his machinations - I don't think the Night King is really real to her right now, no matter what Jon told her. Once she finds out how LF's plots managed to destroy her family, it'll be his turn to face Stark justice. And there'll be no riding south for him.

Eyes High · June 27, 2016

41 minutes ago, arjumand said:

So I went to the scene again, and no, I got it right first time. Sansa is smiling a small smile all the way through the King in the North scene, and at no point does she suggest by her body language that she thinks it's hers by right. The only time she stops smiling is when she catches LFs eye and sees that he isn't pleased.

I rewatched the scene, too, and this is what I saw:

1. Lyanna Mormont stands up to speak and chides the Northern lords for refusing to answer the call: Sansa smiles.

2. Lyanna Mormont starts in on "We know no king": Sansa sort of looks down with a wry, "I fucking knew it"-type expression and stops smiling.

3. Manderly pledges his support to Jon Snow and praises Jon Snow for "avenging the Red Wedding": Sansa is not smiling and looks upset.

4. Glover pledges his support to Jon Snow: Sansa is not smiling.

5. The KITN shouts start up: Sansa is not smiling.

6. Jon looks to Sansa for reassurance: Sansa offers him a small smile.

7. The KITN shouts continue: Sansa continues to smile, but to me it's a glassy smile that, as GRRM would put it, doesn't reach her eyes.

8. Sansa looks over at Littlefinger's "Told you so" expression: Sansa drops the smile and looks upset.

My perception was that Sansa was happy to hear Lyanna praising the Starks until it became clear that she was going to be passed over in favour of Jon, and that her little smile was only to reassure Jon, as she didn't smile until Jon looked at her to see whether she would agree to being passed over. She did not look happy, and she looked caught out when LF was looking at her.

Hana Chan · June 27, 2016

I didn't see anything in Sansa's demeanor that hinted that she felt slighted or overlooked. If anything, she seemed completely supportive of Jon not only being named Lord of Winterfell (with her statement that he's a Stark to her despite his illegitimacy) but being declared as King by the Northern Lords. And towards the end, Jon looked to her for assurance and she smiled at him. That doesn't imply to me that she was upset that she wasn't proclaimed Queen.

And that frown when she looked at Littlefinger struck me as being more concerned about the trouble that she knows he can bring (because she'd know that he cannot be trusted under any circumstances) than having any feelings of being passed over in favor of Jon. If anything, she'd gone out of her way to place Jon in a position where he'd be accepted as Lord Stark, including making him a cloak that looked like the one that Ned used to wear.

Umbelina · June 28, 2016

The truth is, they've written and the actress has played Sansa in a way that anything could now be true. Each of her scenes can be intelligently interpreted to mean vastly different things. I think it was deliberate. I hope the "surprise," which is what I suspect all of this will lead to, is worth the annoyance.

Lady S. · June 28, 2016

If Sansa wanted to be QitN or even ruling Lady of Winterfell, she did a shitty job of claiming her rights. All she had to do was say the word when Jon offered his support and he would have declared her the head of House Stark before anyone could think to throw another KitN party. That wasn't Jon failing to take her feelings into account, it was him taking her at her word and not assuming everything she said had the opposite meaning. The alternative to Sansa genuinely supporting Jon would not be cunning ambition, it would mean Sansa is an idiot who expects Jon to be a mind reader.

Hana Chan · June 28, 2016

I think that Sansa all but elected Jon to be KITN herself. The instant that Littlefinger brought up the idea of her becoming Lady Winterfell, she knew that her claiming the title would fit neatly into his plans. Because the Northern Lords wouldn't support Sansa in the same way that they supported Jon (as a war leader in a time of war) and she would have been forced to accept Littlefinger's aid (as well as his marriage proposal). But letting Jon take the titles, she gets protected from Littlefinger. As KITN, Jon would get final say over any marriage for Sansa and there is no way that he would force her into something that she didn't want. She engineered a shield against Littlefinger.

Others had pointed out that this seems to be Ned and Catlin all over again. Littlefinger resented Ned and the Starks for keeping Catlin from him, and thus worked to engineer Ned's downfall. Now it's Jon and Sansa. The only difference is that Sansa knows exactly what she's dealing with here - a man who might claim to want her but still gave her to a brutal rapist for his own ends. She's not going to make the mistake of seeing Littlefinger as the harmless childhood friend the way that Catlin did.

Oscirus · June 28, 2016

Quote

Also, I'm supposed to believe the actors and the showrunners, the ones who spent a whole year trying to convince everyone of the deadness of Jon Snow? I don't think so. We're being told about the coming Jon/Sansa conflict because they believe that there has to be conflict everywhere! to get audiences back.

Big difference between the writers trying to maintain kayfabe to keep up the illusion that Jon's actually dead and them making up plot lines. It wouldn't be the first scene that was interpreted in a way in which it wasn't meant to be interpreted.

I think that this season has been about building up the tension between Sansa and Jon. There's been a repeated theme of true born vs bastard and though Sansa may not want to admit it out loud, I do think that she feels that she's entitled to Winterfell.

I could feel the tension once Jon got all the credit for that win and her last minute maneuver wasn't even recognized by anybody but Jon. I can see her becoming susceptible to LF next year especially if he keeps feeding to her the fact that Jon is getting everything that she should be entitled to. LF has now twice given her unsolicited advice on Jon and both time she at least appeared to have listened to him.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Oscirus

Advance35 · June 28, 2016

I think it's definitely going to be interesting. The only thing that gives me hope in regards to Sansa is that she definitely doesn't trust Littlefinger and neither does Jon. There is still the sense of danger because far savvier players then Jon and Sansa have gotten mixed up with Littlefinger and lost terribly because of it (Hello House Lannister and House Tyrell, how's every little thing).

The Cast Sansa is likely to interact with next season is Jon, Littlefinger, Brienne and Podrick. Though the show has built relations between Sansa and two of Dany's entourage, Tyrion and Theon. I have to agree with whomever posted that Sansa is the Little Black Dress of Westeros in that she can basically fit in anywhere and you never know what's next for her.

We've seen that Sansa has it in her to be ruthless (ask the remains of Ramsay Bolton) and we've seen that she has it in her to be crafty (her deception of the Lords of The Vale in Season 4). But I don't think she has it in her to TRULY move against Jon. I could see her trying to swindle him out of something or trying to manipulate him. But I can't see her attempting a coup.

So many thoughts on how this could all go. And we can't forget Cersei's unfinished business with her.

Eyes High · June 28, 2016

Littlefinger has managed to screw over other characters--some of whom are much smarter and savvier than Sansa and Jon--who did not trust him as far as they could throw him but still naively thought they could handle him. Tyrion has always known Littlefinger was bad news, but Littlefinger still managed to ruin his life and nearly get him killed at least twice (three times if you think he's responsible for the attempt on Tyrion's life at Blackwater, which he might have been in the books at least, even if the show blames Joffrey). Judging from her lukewarm reaction to Littlefinger's unveiling of his scheme and his leaning in for a kiss--"It's a pretty picture" and a gentle hand on the chest stopping him--and the fact that she appears to be listening to Littlefinger's warnings about Jon posing a threat to her and usurping her rightful place, Sansa still hasn't learned her lesson.

I had to laugh at her "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger." Girl, what does that make you?

Hana Chan · June 28, 2016

The fact that Littlefinger can have any influence at all over Sansa after he all but giftwrapped her and sent her off to Ramsey Bolton to be raped and brutalized, to me, shows that Sansa is still prone to being influenced by others. I think it's very debatable over whether or not Sansa feels that the titles given to Jon should be hers by right of bloodline (I don't think she really does), but the fact that Littlefinger has any sway over her at all after what he'd put her through just tells me that she's not as politically astute as she's being given credit for.

arjumand · June 28, 2016

23 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

The fact that Littlefinger can have any influence at all over Sansa after he all but giftwrapped her and sent her off to Ramsey Bolton to be raped and brutalized, to me, shows that Sansa is still prone to being influenced by others. I think it's very debatable over whether or not Sansa feels that the titles given to Jon should be hers by right of bloodline (I don't think she really does), but the fact that Littlefinger has any sway over her at all after what he'd put her through just tells me that she's not as politically astute as she's being given credit for.

That's why I'm hoping he won't have any influence over her next season - that she'll just pretend to listen so that he'll keep trusting her. It's not really a question of being politically astute, in my opinion - this isn't something she has to plan out like a chess game. It just requires a memory of a direct succession of events, one after the other: she trusts Petyr, and the next thing she knows, she's being bent over a bed while her brutalized eunuch foster-brother watches.

Even if she believes that Petyr didn't know how bad Ramsey was (and I can hardly believe it myself, even though the showrunners said it), that's even worse: he didn't care enough about her safety to investigate the guy who was going to have complete power over her. Petyr treated her like one of his whores, and I think that was one of the reasons part of Jeyne Poole's story was given to Sansa instead.

Talking to Baelish at Molestown, it seemed like Sansa realised this. Talking to Jon at Winterfell, it was made very clear that Sansa realised this, and that she was talking partly about herself when she said "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger." In fact, in the scene in the godswood she calls herself a "stupid girl".

So, in my opinion, going back on that and trusting Littlefinger again would be counterproductive as regards character development.

Hana Chan · June 28, 2016

When a house's symbol is a flayed man, I can't buy that Littlefinger wouldn't know how bad Ramsey Bolton would be to Sansa. It's not like this family had a reputation for being charitable and kind to widows and orphans.

I don't think Sansa is foolish enough to believe Littlefinger any further than she could throw him, which is why I don't buy the argument that she should be Lady of Winterfell (or QITN) just because Littlefinger planted the idea in her head. And I think that her support for Jon holding those titles are sincere if only for the reason that now as the titular head of her household, Jon will get final approval over any marriage proposals for Sansa. All she has to say to Jon is that she doesn't want to marry someone and that's it. And Jon has the power to enforce that protection.

She's playing a game here, but I don't see it being against Jon.

Umbelina · June 28, 2016

It depends on Littlefingers real role in things though, since none of that Bolton crap happened in the books, and indeed, Littlefinger protected her, keeping her in perhaps the safest possible place, and in disguise to protect her from Cersei. Then again, how much do the showrunners really know about what happens between Sansa and Littlefinger later in the books?

His character is the most different and the most ruined from the books, even worse than Jamie's. So, since they are insisting Littlefinger did not know (oh please!) Sansa has reason to believe that (since he never actually did it) and could conceivably still be involved with him. Sansa may be his weak spot, but really, it's mostly because of her resemblance to his real initial motivation, her mom. She certainly can't outwit him, but the show may try to push that idea.

Sansa's a mess, the total little black dress of the story, so at this point, absolutely anything may happen with her. Each person that watches her scenes since she parted with Theon sees something different, and the showrunners CERTAINLY see it differently than what they showed us on screen, so???

Funzlerks · June 28, 2016

Who has Littlefinger screwed over that's smarter than Sansa and Jon? I feel like other characters' so called smarts are vastly overstated so people can feel like the Starks are dumb. Sansa and Jon are sitting relatively well vis a vis any other Lords Paramount. Maybe Ellaria is doing better, but no one could call her smart. Olenna throws one liners but hitched her ride to whatever man would make Margery queen a long time ago. not exactly a deep game there. Tyrion couldn't see what was in front of his face in Westeros, basically was kidnapped to get to Danerys, then messed it up there. Not the smartest guy and maybe more blind to threats than most. Smart characters like Blackfish and Ned and others often get screwed because people will do awful things when faced with crazy people like the Lannisters.

Chris24601 · June 28, 2016

Yeah, for a woman raised in the culture of Westeros, Sansa has to know that supporting Jon is her surest ticket to survival. I think a lot of viewers are taking a much too modernist approach to what a woman raised in the culture would expect. Dany and Cersei are the abberations. The usual result of a woman seeking direct power is what happened to Yara when Euron showed up.

The Lady of Thorns knows how to play the game as a lady... rule through your husband and children. Margaery learned that lesson too and only dropped the facade when it was truly life or death.

As others pointed out, as sister of the King, Sansa is effectively Jon's ward, which means she can't do anything unless the king allows it. But at the same time, even as king, Jon still feels that Winterfell is as much Sansa's as his (if not more so) and so would defer to her judgement and desires.

In a way that's even greater protection than a father could provide, since a father would feel he knows what is best for his daughter and might agree to a union against her wishes for the greater good while Jon, as her bastard brother, feels no such superiority or right to make those decisions for Sansa.

As for Cersei, I'm not too worried for Sansa for the simple reason the North is beyond her reach. Winter has come and unless something magical happens to end it early it will be years in the best of circumstances before any force from the south could make it past the Neck (Dany's dragons are literally the only force that could make it up there to change the balance of power).

That's years for the North to prepare itself and years for Dorne, the Tyrell's and Dany to change the equation in the south and, most importantly, years for everyone to get used to the idea that the North is a sovereign state which just wants to be left alone.

The North is already a de facto sovereign state. By the time armies can actually march north again in numbers leveler heads in the south might find more advantage in trade agreements than military conquests in the North.

Heck, if Dany takes the south, but Jon gets revealed as Rhaegar's trueborn son, Jon could probably leverage it to let the North go its own way in exchange for abdicating his claim to the Iron Throne (then marry Sansa to make his claim to the North as secure as possible).

In other words, other than Littlefinger schemes and ice zombies Sansa's in just about the safest place she could possibly be (other than chillin' on a tropical island with Jon and the Free Folk).

Umbelina · June 28, 2016

Ned was far from smart.

Littlefinger has charmed and manipulated just about everyone, and risen remarkably from his very humble, nearly destitute beginnings. He's not the cartoon the show has made him in the books, so for show purposes, just go by the results he's achieved.

Maximum Taco · June 28, 2016

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Littlefinger has managed to screw over other characters--some of whom are much smarter and savvier than Sansa and Jon--who did not trust him as far as they could throw him but still naively thought they could handle him. Tyrion has always known Littlefinger was bad news, but Littlefinger still managed to ruin his life and nearly get him killed at least twice (three times if you think he's responsible for the attempt on Tyrion's life at Blackwater, which he might have been in the books at least, even if the show blames Joffrey). Judging from her lukewarm reaction to Littlefinger's unveiling of his scheme and his leaning in for a kiss--"It's a pretty picture" and a gentle hand on the chest stopping him--and the fact that she appears to be listening to Littlefinger's warnings about Jon posing a threat to her and usurping her rightful place, Sansa still hasn't learned her lesson.

I had to laugh at her "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger." Girl, what does that make you?

I think that was her point. It was a self deprecating warning.

"Only a fool would trust Littlefinger" she leaves unsaid the "a fool like me." This is pretty in tune with Sansa's character, she's usually harder on herself then anyone else when she makes a mistake.

She definitely doesn't trust him now, she may think she can outsmart him, which could be just as dangerous.

51 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It depends on Littlefingers real role in things though, since none of that Bolton crap happened in the books, and indeed, Littlefinger protected her, keeping her in perhaps the safest possible place, and in disguise to protect her from Cersei. Then again, how much do the showrunners really know about what happens between Sansa and Littlefinger later in the books?

His character is the most different and the most ruined from the books, even worse than Jamie's. So, since they are insisting Littlefinger did not know (oh please!) Sansa has reason to believe that (since he never actually did it) and could conceivably still be involved with him. Sansa may be his weak spot, but really, it's mostly because of her resemblance to his real initial motivation, her mom. She certainly can't outwit him, but the show may try to push that idea.

Sansa's a mess, the total little black dress of the story, so at this point, absolutely anything may happen with her. Each person that watches her scenes since she parted with Theon sees something different, and the showrunners CERTAINLY see it differently than what they showed us on screen, so???

She definitely can't outsmart him, that goes against pretty much everything we've learned so far.

The only way for Sansa to win (IMO) is to somehow find a way to pull Cersei's "power is power" gambit on Littlefinger. She could actually turn on him right now, if it wasn't for the fact that he's Lord Protector and Sweetrobin listens to his voice like gospel. If she can win Sweetrobin to her side (via marriage?) then she could easily pull the old "power is power" on him. The only thing is she has to be smart then and kill him.

This would let them mesh the book storylines in a bit too, just write out Harry entirely and replace him with Sweetrobin.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Maximum Taco

Advance35 · June 28, 2016

Quote

So, in my opinion, going back on that and trusting Littlefinger again would be counterproductive as regards character development.

Well trusting is one thing and working with is another. Margaery and Olenna never trusted Lord Baelish and he still led to the fall of House Tyrell. Cersei didn't trust him and neither did Tywin but he managed to help set the dominoes that have left House Lannister in the state it's in. LF and Sansa know a LOT about each other, Bloodshed they've collectively seen/caused and covered up. She may think working WITH him could be to the her/Stark advantage.

He's definitely not done with her though. I think Sansa handled his "proposal" in a surprisingly diplomatic manner, but I don't think LF is going to take rejection from another Tully.

Despite all the potential avenues that could be explored, I'm hoping in the end, she stays true to Jon. He may not be equipped when it comes to Sansa's particular issues but I do think he cares a great deal about her and I think he would defend her with his life if it came to it.

Hana Chan · June 28, 2016

I rewatched the scene at the beginning where Jon and Sansa were talking up on the battlements and Jon mentions that he'd had the Lord's chambers prepared for her. Sansa expressed surprise, and stated outright that Jon should be the one to take those rooms. When Jon responded that he wasn't a Stark, she answered very clearly that he was to her. Jon even tried insisting that Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell and that the victory against the Boltons was due to her actions. They had a nice little mutual admiration society going on there.

The whole interaction tells me very clearly that Jon was not disregarding Sansa, and that Sansa had no issue with Jon being made Lord of Winterfell. Especially with the arrival of the white raven - Winterfell needed a strong warden and as politically capable as she might be in some circumstances, she's just not capable of fulfilling that responsibility. All of Sansa's behavior since she reunited with Jon was treating Jon as her true brother, including apologizing for how she'd treated Jon when they were growing up. I just didn't see anything that hints that Sansa was looking to gain power for herself. She's not the little girl who dreamed about being a queen herself anymore. And when she dismissed Littlefinger's proposal as "a pretty picture", that to me expressed how far she'd come from the girl who ignored all of the red flags with Joffrey because he was a handsome prince and is now seeing things a lot more clearly.

GrailKing · June 28, 2016

On 6/26/2016 at 2:48 PM, Eyes High said:

Just because Sansa thinks more fondly of her Northern roots doesn't mean she can get back to them. That was the real poignancy of the snow castle scene to me: Sansa only appreciates her home when she has lost it (you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone, etc. etc.). Lady's death is irreversible, and so, too, is the loss of her Starkness, or at least that's where GRRM seems to be going with this. Many ASOIAF characters pine after things or people that are permanently lost to them. Jaime deeply mourns his sword hand, but that doesn't mean it's going to grow back. Sansa's connection to her Starkness has been brutally amputated in similar fashion, and as sad as she may be about losing the North--and for all the talk about how Sansa is hewing closer to her northern roots and disdaining the south, she didn't seem all that sad about the southern domestic paradise at Highgarden she envisioned in ASOS when a match with Willas was proposed--that doesn't mean she can get it back. If my interpretation is correct--and GRRM's comments appear to suggest that it is--Sansa's home in the North is lost to her as much as Lady. That doesn't mean she won't stay at Winterfell for a time in the books, but it will never be and can never be hers again. As I said upthread, according to the books and to GRRM Sansa became an UnStark the moment she lost Lady, and all the snow castles in the world won't change that.

<snip>

This is partially correct, Lady's death can't be undone, but as was mentioned in book

when a wolf and owner bond part of each is in the other for life

the loss of Lady isn't the loss of her Starkness, she'll have to work harder to get it back, what is lost is her ties to the world of magic .

No where in book is Sansa totality loosing her Starkness she may have to fight harder for it, but it's there with plenty of clues to us that it is.

As far as Sansa and for that matter Arya and extra surviving males they are by laws more or less heading to other area's to form their own houses , Sansa to either a great house to forge an alliance Arya too, but we don't know how any of this will pan out and males the same; though they may go on their own some other way.

Sansa now isn't Sansa longing for Highgarden, that ship has sailed, it's about home,family and sacrifice; her sacrifice may be she has to stay married to someone she doesn't love to provide the peace and stability the realm needs to rebuild.

My crack pot is she's

Persephone , the Starks forgot something in the pack between the Children and Others; a daughter of a Stark was to be betrothed to the leader. Sansa may have to be that sacrifice bringing the seasons back to normal, either with Winter time while she sits at Winterfell or up North or the warmer months as she sits in Winterfell and winter comes as she heads North.

Oscirus · June 28, 2016

Look at both of Sansa's interactions with Little Finger. In the first, she clearly states she's in control now. She's not that little girl that LF can steal kisses from. Yet, when LF makes that remark at the end, she doesn't keep walking or laugh him off. She stops, and thinks about it for a minute before dismissing it. The seeds planted.

Then at the meeting as the crowd is chanting for Jon to be KITN LF catches her eyes and Sansa once again looks like she's considering what LF told her.

Sansa might be about family, but make no mistake about she's ambitious. She wants to be more then some Northern Lord's wife. She might be willing to bite her tongue for now. But I don't think it will last forever. She'll turn back to LF if it's the only way to get the recognition she craves.

Hana Chan · June 28, 2016

Sansa might have the ambition to be queen, but she doesn't have the capability. It's not about a title and a fancy dress - it's a tremendous responsibility. One that she has never had to shoulder. She has always had others to try to take care of her, but when you're in charge your responsibility is to those you command (and not the other way around). This show has been chock full of awful rulers who saw their titles as a means to serve themselves (Robert, Cerci, Joffrey and even Dany) and very few really good ones (maybe Yara and Khal Drogo in his own way).

Sansa brings absolutely nothing to the table except her bloodline. Being Lady of Winterfell means being the Warder of the North and that is something far outside of her capabilities. She's never commanded men in battle. She's never lead an army or studied military strategy. The one time when she deliberately caused a death by her actions was killing Ramsey and that was personal revenge.

And we need to keep in mind that as of now, the only fighting men at Winterfell are there because of Jon. After the losses suffered under Robb, being invaded by the Iron Born and then lorded over by the Boltons, the Starks have no army of their own anymore. What they have are the thousand or so Wildlings that survived the battle and are there out of loyalty to Jon and the men from the Vale (who are loyal to Littlefinger). Without Jon, she would be left totally defenseless.

And there is no way that the Northern Lords would rally about her simply because she's Ned Stark's trueborn daughter. Not when they're facing the worst kind of war imaginable. For all his mistakes, Jon has the experience of command and has shared the risk on the battlefield alongside his men. He knows the dangers and shares that with his men. For that, he's earned their loyalty. And for the Lords, it makes a lot more sense to follow a trained warrior than a girl who has never stood on a battlefield except as a bystander.

For all that she'd been around royals and nobility, she has a very limited view over what makes a ruler. She's seen Joffrey's selfishness, Cerci's powerlust and Ramsey's cruelty. She's never seen a leader who actually gives a damn about his or her people. Wanting power doesn't necessarily mean that she should be given it.

gbbarb · June 28, 2016

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Littlefinger has managed to screw over other characters--some of whom are much smarter and savvier than Sansa and Jon--who did not trust him as far as they could throw him but still naively thought they could handle him. Tyrion has always known Littlefinger was bad news, but Littlefinger still managed to ruin his life and nearly get him killed at least twice (three times if you think he's responsible for the attempt on Tyrion's life at Blackwater, which he might have been in the books at least, even if the show blames Joffrey). Judging from her lukewarm reaction to Littlefinger's unveiling of his scheme and his leaning in for a kiss--"It's a pretty picture" and a gentle hand on the chest stopping him--and the fact that she appears to be listening to Littlefinger's warnings about Jon posing a threat to her and usurping her rightful place, Sansa still hasn't learned her lesson.

I had to laugh at her "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger." Girl, what does that make you?

I would say only a fool would ignore what LIttlefinger is up to and a wise woman would listen but follow her own counsel. Information is a valuable commodity and she knows it.

Chris24601 · June 28, 2016

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Sansa brings absolutely nothing to the table except her bloodline. Being Lady of Winterfell means being the Warder of the North and that is something far outside of her capabilities.

And in the end that might be all she needs (it worked for Elizabeth of York) because there's also the more traditional role of the Lady of Winterfell; the wife of the Lord of Winterfell and mother to future kings, queens, lords and ladies.

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa now isn't Sansa longing for Highgarden, that ship has sailed, it's about home,family and sacrifice; her sacrifice may be she has to stay married to someone she doesn't love to provide the peace and stability the realm needs to rebuild.

If Jon's parentage comes out, it could cost him some support in the North because the lords pledged themselves on the basis that Jon was Ned's son, not his nephew with a Targaryen father. He might need Sansa's hand in marriage to reassure those lords that his heirs will be Ned's trueborn grandchildren.

It has been pointed out by some that Jon/Sansa feels a bit creepy to them because they were raised together, but that might actually be the sacrifice. Despite them not loving each other in that way, the stability of the North needs both Jon as a strong king now in the face of the White Walkers and the assurance to the North that Jon's children will be Ned's grandchildren (and presuming Bran is impotent due to his injuries Sansa's children would be next in line regardless if Jon were out of the picture).

In the books I always figured Jon/Sansa wouldn't start as any more a tale of romantic love than Ned and Cat did. Instead it would be the least bad of a series of really terrible options and they'd make the best of it and maybe even grow something better out of the foundations of the not-so-romantic affection that is there.

This will translate into something far more overtly romantic on the show because the showrunners want to leave the audience satisfied and two protagonists stuck marrying because they have to for the good of the realm being a satisfying ending would be a hard sell (unless enough time is shown to show that they do end up reasonably happy with it).

There's some definite meta-irony in that to me, since Jon and Sansa started out as probably the two kids who most believed the storybook tales of knights and princesses and the romance of it all. In the novels they precede to be completely disabused of those notions only to end up living through events that will most likely see them immortalized in future stories that change the details to fit the more romantic mold...

The meta-irony is... what is the adaptation of their story on HBO probably going to do? Change the details to make it a more romantic tale because its an easier sell to general audiences. Its almost like the tv-series itself is the story the bards will sing down the line about the actual book characters.

jjjmoss · June 29, 2016

I'm pretty sure that originally people called Queen Sansa the Little Black Dress because no matter who her scene/storyline partner is, she helps elevate them thanks to Sophie Turner's magnetic chemistry: Joffrey, Cersei, Sandor, Shae, Tyrion, Margaery, Ramsay, Theon, Jon, Littlefinger...

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