S04.E22: Lucifer Rising

[DittyDotDot]

As only one seal is left to break, the angels are ready and Dean and Sam are intent on killing Lilith.

 

I think this might be the talkiest finale they've ever done...maybe. I think I could have used a little less talking and more doing or just more shutting the hell up, but whatever. I do give them kudos for managing to pull together four seasons of mythology concerning what Yellow Eyes was up to. And for the most part, I think it works especially since I know they were making it up as they went along. There are some fun, subtle things hidden in the "beautiful room" set and I will never not find it funny when Dean tips over that angel statue. It was also nice to see Ruby get stabbed in the gut--adios Yucky And Totally Obvious Ruby, about time. Otherwise, nothing here I wish to re-watch much either.

[catrox14]

 I hate this  episode because of the boo-hoo princess speech Bobby unleashes on Dean. It pisses me off to this day. It's horrible and awful how often Dean's legitimate emotions are downplayed and outright mocked by the people that supposedly love him.  To my mind, it doesn't matter that Bobby may or may not have known that Sam beat the crap out of Dean. And no, fuck that "Family is supposed to make you miserable" shit.  Shut up Bobby. 

 

 

But I did love everything in the Green Room between Dean and Cas

Edited September 29, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

My frustration from "When the Levee Breaks" - yeah that didn't go away here. More miscommunication and then angel interference which was

never, ever clarified later on either.

How many finales do they expect me to go through where Sam and Dean just miss getting the good result? The first time it was shocking, the second and even third time it was tragic. By now I was more "of friggin' course Castiel zaps Dean just outside the door and he's a moment too late. Why do I watch this show again?"

 

And that pretty much sums up my general feelings on this episode. I think I've pretty much covered my feelings concerning other minutia in other threads - for example, I thought it was in character for Sam to take the Machiavellian path, but thought that Dean should've used his brains more (though that was more in the last episode). I would've liked the Dean/Castiel interactions more if it wasn't mostly to fuel the "missed it by that much" ending. And I understand your anger at Bobby, catrox14, but I felt that Castiel was harming Dean in a way just as much if not more. At least Bobby went along with Dean's plans despite all of his reservations. Castiel openly thwarted Dean's wishes and then later

never took responsibility for it, blaming it all on Sam.

Sure Castiel had an "excuse," but I look at that in the same way as Sam's "excuse" - that is to say: not much of one and

at least Sam admitted that later.

And so for me Castiel's turnaround to help Dean was a little bit of too little, too late.

 

So again, yeah, frustration and I'm not sure that this is what they were going for here.

[Blue Castle]

I hate this episode because of the boo-hoo princess speech Bobby unleashes on Dean. It pisses me off to this day. It's horrible and awful how often Dean's legitimate emotions are downplayed and outright mocked by the people that supposedly love him. To my mind, it doesn't matter that Bobby may or may not have known that Sam beat the crap out of Dean. And no, fuck that "Family is supposed to make you miserable" shit. Shut up Bobby.

I actually love that speech--not for the "boo hoo princess" stuff but for the moment when Bobby says that John Winchester was an idiot and that Dean is a much better man than he ever was. I don't think Dean really hears it but at least someone said it. One of my favorite things about Bobby, actually, is his low opinion on JW's fathering abilities--and of course he doesn't go around criticizing him often (that would be tacky to do around John's sons) but his real opinion about JW comes out occasionally, like in this ep.

[GirlyGeek]

So, this is one of my favorite finales. Not gonna lie. I actually love finales in general. I'm kinda sucker for the epic cliffhangers, lol and this was my first SPN finale watched live, so there's that.

Bobbys speech to Dean did not bother me. Yea, the boo hoo was a little cold, but I agree with him over all. Dean was about to settle into full on wallow mode and give up and Bobby set him straight. Harshly, but the world was about to end. I feel Bobbys frustration here too: Sam's drinking demon blood and being led around by a demon, Deans saying screw him, screw the world, and then signing up for team Angels. Bobbys losing everyone, too.

And I loved that he told Dean that he was a better man than John Winchester ever was. Dean needed to hear it (even if he didn't take it in), and I love Bobby for not being afraid to say that.

The angel green room was fascinating to me and still, on re watch, was awesome. The tricks of light used, the changing pictures, the whole scene was beautiful and then terrifying when it changes. Just brilliant.

Watching Sam take the final steps to his doom was so sad to see. The little final manipulations, the smug smiles we start to get to see from Ruby, all the last pieces falling into place.

Then, seeing Sam start to wonder, start to hesitate, only to be given the ultimate manipulation with the voicemail. Wow, did I almost throw the remote at the TV the first time around. I was shocked and then so pissed, lol. And then, for the boys never to address it onscreen? Ugh!

I wrote fanfic trying to put that one back together in my brain, ha ha.

The scene between Dean and Zachariah, where the colors change and Dean is clued in to what's really going on...? So amazing. Great camera work, great use of color and lighting. When I realized the paintings were changing and the room was changing... Just great

But, the real clincher for me was Dean and Cas. When Dean is trying to rally Cas to wake up and pick the humans side, and then Dean does this little head tilt, bends his head and catches Cas' eyes... Gah. Great job by Jensen and Misha.

Loved Sam's eyes going black, loved that Deans voice got through to him, even if it was just a moment, even if being called a monster and freak pushed him over the edge anyway. Loved that Dean was fighting to get to Sam. And loved that Sam, after realizing just how much he threw away to go after Lilith, held Ruby in place while Dean killed her. The final scene of them grabbing on to each other's shirts was a great ending.

Overall, I like S4. It had its bad times and what the frak moments, but especially in this re watch I had a new appreciation for it.

[catrox14]

 

Winchester was an idiot and that Dean is a much better man than he ever was. I don't think Dean really hears it but at least someone said it. One of my favorite things about Bobby, actually, is his low opinion on JW's fathering abilities--and of course he doesn't go around criticizing him often (that would be tacky to do around John's sons) but his real opinion about JW comes out occasionally, like in this ep.

 

 

I don't really know why Dean would have been expected to hear and absorb the better than your father" part after all the other shit Bobby said.  IF the ultimate point was for Bobby to buck up Dean by saying he was better than his father, why not say that at first. Why not say, Dean, I know you are upset with Sam but don't leave him out there in the wind. Be better than your Dad because you are already better than your father."

 

I mean Dean probably wouldn't have heard that anyway because Dean could never let himself be better than John in his heart and head but it sure would have seemed a lot more likely to land.  I mean Bobby wouldn't need to be treacly about the whole thing but it could have been written in a way that left out the entire "boo hoo princess" crap if the point was to really let Dean believe he was better than John. 

 

It also shows that Bobby is either totally clueless when it comes to Dean or he and no one else cared that Dean only quite recently was nearly beaten to death by his literal torturer from Hell, never mind Dean being in actual Hell, which I can't remember Bobby ever asking about regardless of Dean not wanting to talk about it.   I can't imagine that Bobby doesn't know about all of that. Just thinking that maybe Bobby would have taken that into account before the "boo hoo princess" bullshit. 

 

I never really forgave Bobby for that.

[rue721]

First of all, OF COURSE the entrance to Lucifer's cage is in freaking Maryland. Perfect. Maryland's state motto should be, "unexpectedly important, but not really in a good way." Like, you know where Fredrick Douglass was a slave? Maryland. That's always the kind of revelation that you get about MD. (said w/ love).

 

Second of all, this season, Dean was irritating the shit out of me because he was SO melodramatic. He was so melodramatic that apparently he even infected Bobby, and Bobby became melodramatic, too. Jim Beaver tried to sell it, and props to him because I generally feel like he *does* manage to sell whatever they give Bobby, my complaints about Bobby have really never been based on the performance, but in this instance...Meh.

 

I don't really disagree with anything that Bobby said, because I *did* think that Dean needed to get over himself and stop with the ridiculous ultimatums that weren't ever going to work (which HE. KNEW. He said himself that it was like Sam leaving for Stanford all over again. Yeah, it WAS, because Sam has never responded well to ultimatums. And the ultimatum of "if you leave now, stay gone forever" (don't remember the exact quote, but close enough *shrug*) is just stupid when it's coming from Dean to Sam. Everyone knows that Dean can't really abide by that. BLUFF. OBVIOUS BLUFF). I also agree with Bobby that nobody does their duty or sticks by their family because it makes them *happy.* That's not the point. And Dean obviously knows that, he was so committed to saving Sam before, because he thought it was his *duty* to protect him, that he was willing to suffer eternal torment in order to do that. That's so far beyond not expecting for doing your duty to make you happy that it's not even in the same universe.

 

But I guess that's sort of why, despite not really having any problem with Bobby's sentiments or how the argument resolved, the whole confrontation between Dean and Bobby fell flat for me. I wasn't even pissed at Bobby. My interpretation of him saying "boo hoo" was just him acknowledging that yes, what was going on with Sam was terrible and Dean was going to feel terrible about it (but that Dean still had to get over himself and do what he had to do anyway). But I don't really get why Dean even needed Bobby to drop those supposed "truth bombs" on him, since Dean clearly knows that yelling doesn't get him his way and that he can't just abandon his brother. I mean, how absurd is it that Dean would ostensibly need Bobby to tell him those things? And just in general, I wish they could have had an actual conversation instead of ~*~emoting~*~ at each other. The actors did a good job and all, but the scene itself didn't make sense character-wise imo. But that's kind of how I felt about all of S4. It wasn't *bad* exactly, but it felt like the show was trying to milk every scene and relationship for max soapiness/cheese/"intensity," and the characterization was hurt by it.

 

Meanwhile, Sam was being such an idiot. Murdering a human being is going to save the world? That ridiculous voicemail? How was he believing that monumental bullshit? And the thing of being high on demon blood just doesn't make sense to me because demon blood didn't seem to work like any actual drug that I can think of. I guess it's supposed to be like meth? Not trying to be overly literal, I guess I'm just trying to figure out how culpable Sam really is for all the terrible stuff he did "while high." Ruby said it was all him, and tbh I'm inclined to believe her, but...Idk.

 

Sorry to be so complain-y. It's not that I think this episode is bad, I don't. It's well done in a lot of ways imo. The plot of the episode works really well, the acting is good (per usual), the look of the episode is pretty good (I liked the color scheme), etc etc etc. But it's just not the kind of tone I like, personally. Everything seems so serious and intense and it makes me antsy. Plus, the characterization seemed kind of flat. Well, no accounting for taste! :)

[pixelcat]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think Ruby was working with Zachariah?  Her smug smile after Sam listens to the VM, when she didn't have the the power to change it.  How would she know what was said, unless Zach told her he'd make sure Sam got every last little push he needed.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think Ruby was working with Zachariah?  Her smug smile after Sam listens to the VM, when she didn't have the the power to change it.  How would she know what was said, unless Zach told her he'd make sure Sam got every last little push he needed.

That would have been an amazing twist but no, I don't think they were. I think they were both master manipulators who were able to push Sam and Dean in the directions they wanted that served their own agendas.  I think she was smug because her plan was moving the way she wanted. Not because she knew what Zachariah did.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That would have been an amazing twist but no, I don't think they were. I think they were both master manipulators who were able to push Sam and Dean in the directions they wanted that served their own agendas.  I think she was smug because her plan was moving the way she wanted. Not because she knew what Zachariah did.

She may not have known what Zachariah did - and that would have been an amazing twist - but I can't entirely rule out the other way around (i.e. that Zachariah knew exactly what Ruby was doing) and maybe a tip off. A fanfic in this area would not be unbelievable. I say this because of that deleted scene in one episode this season (I forget which)  where Uriel is saying to Castiel "well at least we can kill the demon bitch" or something to that effect, and Castiel tells him that nope, the higher ups - meaning Zach was involved - said that Ruby was off limits, and that she had a role to play.

[catrox14]

I never saw that deleted scene. Since it's not part of the episode then I can't really factor it into the SL as presented. I'm glad it wasn't included because man that would have given the whole thing away. Although maybe for Sam fans that would have helped folks know she was playing him and he would have been more sympathetic...or more not. I dunno.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Or not.  :)  I always figured Ruby was playing Sam.  I mean, Demon!  Hello!  I didn't like Sam much during that time, not because he was or was not being played, but because he was, IMO, being stupid and allowing himself to be played.  If that makes sense...

If I'd known the angels were complicit, or at least aware of the situation, it would have made no difference as to how I'd perceived Sam's character.  

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm glad it wasn't included because man that would have given the whole thing away.

I'm thinking that that is why it was cut from that earlier episode - I think it was around the time of "It's the Great Pumpkin..." through "I Know What You Did..." - because the writers didn't want to let the role of the angels in this be known that early on.

Although it would have explained why Uriel and Castiel didn't just smite Ruby and be done with it... I mean Cas and Uriel kept complaining to Dean "your brother's on a dangerous path, blah blah so you better stop him before really bad stuff happens" when they could've just gone zap and killed Ruby and all the "bad stuff, dangerous path" thing would've been taken care of so easily. So at least that would've explained why they just sat around whining and threatening and expecting Dean to do everything.

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Or not.  :)  I always figured Ruby was playing Sam.  I mean, Demon!  Hello!  I didn't like Sam much during that time, not because he was or was not being played, but because he was, IMO, being stupid and allowing himself to be played.  If that makes sense...

My one way that I don't feel as bad about this, is that, by this episode especially, we learned that almost everyone was being played... Castiel by Zachariah and Michael and Uriel, Dean by Castiel and Zachariah, Anna by Cas... even Lilith was played in the end by Lucifer, because she seemed truly surprised to find out that she had to die in order for the final seal to be broken. I mean yes, Sam was played by Ruby, but in a way that means he wasn't played for long by the angels. After about "It's the Great Pumpkin..." time, Sam pretty much didn't believe in the angels' plans for Dean or that they had the solution to stopping the seals from breaking - and they didn't. And for me it's kind of a toss up as to who was worse - Ruby or Zachariah.

So yup Sam was played, but he also bore all the brunt of the blame, too whereas others - like Castiel - never really had to answer for their mistakes. Dean, for example, never found out that Castiel let Sam out of the panic room, or to what extent he turned Anna in to be tortured, so even though Castiel entirely got played and played his own role in what happened, Sam got stuck with the "bad choices" and the "betrayal" stigma while Castiel got to skate by on that one.

I was more annoyed by Sam's characterization at this time more for the over the top - and in my opinion unnecessary and contradictory - "Dean is weak" stuff. I would like to have had some of Sam's potential resentment and guilt from that resentment have been explored instead, because Sam did have a legitimate reason to be annoyed with Dean for making the deal in the first place. But sadly the show didn't go there - not even in this episode (or the last one) when it could've been a sore spot for Sam... much more than the somewhat nonsensical, in my opinion, "Dean is weak" thing - which also contradicted Sam's earlier assurances to Dean that no one would've lasted as long as Dean did. This is where season 4 failed some for me. I think they didn't want to really revisit the role Dean's deal might've played though, so instead it was just pretty much ignored (except for angst purposes).

Edited August 11, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

On 8/10/2016 at 2:33 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

She may not have known what Zachariah did - and that would have been an amazing twist - but I can't entirely rule out the other way around (i.e. that Zachariah knew exactly what Ruby was doing) and maybe a tip off. A fanfic in this area would not be unbelievable. I say this because of that deleted scene in one episode this season (I forget which)  where Uriel is saying to Castiel "well at least we can kill the demon bitch" or something to that effect, and Castiel tells him that nope, the higher ups - meaning Zach was involved - said that Ruby was off limits, and that she had a role to play.

Oh, Zachariah and the angels knew what Ruby was up to, it's what they wanted and this way they could sit back and not get their hands dirty.  I don't think Ruby had any idea of what the angels were really about, though. In some ways she was being played just like everyone else. That's why the angels didn't just out and out go after the demons or Lilith. They needed Lilith to live long enough for Sam to kill her in that church and they needed Ruby to make sure Sam go there.

21 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Or not.  :)  I always figured Ruby was playing Sam.  I mean, Demon!  Hello!  I didn't like Sam much during that time, not because he was or was not being played, but because he was, IMO, being stupid and allowing himself to be played.  If that makes sense...

If I'd known the angels were complicit, or at least aware of the situation, it would have made no difference as to how I'd perceived Sam's character.  

Amen to that!!

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, Zachariah and the angels knew what Ruby was up to, it's what they wanted and this way they could sit back and not get their hands dirty.  I don't think Ruby had any idea of what the angels were really about, though. In some ways she was being played just like everyone else. That's why the angels didn't just out and out go after the demons or Lilith. They needed Lilith to live long enough for Sam to kill her in that church and they needed Ruby to make sure Sam go there.

I definitely agree, and you're right that Ruby likely didn't know that she was being given a free pass, because this is what the angels wanted, too. And that Michael was manipulating things the whole time, since way back when... Don't get me started.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Amen to that!!

Aw. Poor Sam. He wasn't the only one being played ; )

Actually pretty much the only one who didn't get played, in my opinion, - at least not yet (his turn comes later) - was Bobby, because he didn't trust anybody. But even Dean's assurance that trusting the angels was better than trusting Ruby? Not so much - since it turns out they wanted the exact same thing and manipulated just as much as Ruby did. They were trying to pit Sam and Dean against each other just as much as Ruby was - maybe even worse - with that whole lie that Dean should stop Sam from using his powers, because that's not what they* wanted at all. They just wanted to throw a monkey wrench into Sam and Dean's relationship, so that Dean would say yes to Michael once Sam got Lucifer raised.

Though Dean does have a bit of an excuse due to hell issues.

And poor Uriel was perhaps one of the most clueless. He didn't even know that he should actually have been supporting Sam rather than trying to kill him. Way not to read your audience and/or know the facts of your position, Uriel. To quote Castiel's cat in a future episode: "dumbass."

* "They" being Michael, Zachariah, and any of the other higher ups who were in the know.

[Hanahope]

So, the whole bit with Cas telling Dean to stop Sam from drinking demon's blood and to stop the seals from breaking was just a ruse to pit the brothers against each other?  wtf?!  I'm curious to see the point of it all, as it, why would the angels (or god or whoever is calling the shots) want Lucifer raised in the first place?  And was Ruby in on it from the beginning, or just once Dean came back from the dead and broke the first seal?  Quite a good long con for Ruby if she was.  I kept hoping Sam would try to prove Dean "wrong" in the altered voicemail, and reject what Ruby wanted.  Sam already knew Lilith was supposed to die before the final seal broke/Lucifer came back, so why was he trying to keep moving things in that direction?  

 So will Sam go through demon blood 'detox' again, or will that plot line be conveniently forgotten?  Guess I'll find out when I start S5.

[Katy M]

33 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

So, the whole bit with Cas telling Dean to stop Sam from drinking demon's blood and to stop the seals from breaking was just a ruse to pit the brothers against each other?  wtf?!  I'm curious to see the point of it all, as it, why would the angels (or god or whoever is calling the shots) want Lucifer raised in the first place?  And was Ruby in on it from the beginning, or just once Dean came back from the dead and broke the first seal?  Quite a good long con for Ruby if she was.  I kept hoping Sam would try to prove Dean "wrong" in the altered voicemail, and reject what Ruby wanted.  Sam already knew Lilith was supposed to die before the final seal broke/Lucifer came back, so why was he trying to keep moving things in that direction?  

 So will Sam go through demon blood 'detox' again, or will that plot line be conveniently forgotten?  Guess I'll find out when I start S5.

I think the only thing I can talk about is Ruby since she's dead and therefore know that I won't accidentally spoil anything further on.  I totally think she was in on it from the beginning of S3 and that's absolutely why I love her so much as a demon.  She was the absolute master of lying and manipulation, only really telling one lie and everything else was the truth so that one lie would so much more easily be believed.  Besides who would have thought that killing Lillith (anyway you did it) would be bad.

[bethy]

One of the things I loved about season 4 Ruby was how manipulative she was and that she'd learned from her earlier mistakes. If I'm remembering correctly, when she was played by KC she mocked both Dean and Sam and kind of ran down what they were trying to do and while Sam flirted with agreeing with her, he never completely bought in. In season 4, though, she played Sam like a drum - he had been grieving the loss of Dean during the summer and was so angry and desperate for revenge, and she told him he was good and noble and self-sacrificing even as she led him down the path to drinking blood. It wasn't until she had him hooked and reeled in that she showed her true self. It was so awesomely demonic. 

[Hanahope]

Gotta feel for the boys.  Can't trust demons, can't trust angels, can't trust anyone (except maybe Bobby, and even then, you never know if its really Bobby or some trickster/demon).  Hell, they shouldn't even let each other out of their sight.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, bethy said:

One of the things I loved about season 4 Ruby was how manipulative she was and that she'd learned from her earlier mistakes. If I'm remembering correctly, when she was played by KC she mocked both Dean and Sam and kind of ran down what they were trying to do and while Sam flirted with agreeing with her, he never completely bought in. In season 4, though, she played Sam like a drum - he had been grieving the loss of Dean during the summer and was so angry and desperate for revenge, and she told him he was good and noble and self-sacrificing even as she led him down the path to drinking blood. It wasn't until she had him hooked and reeled in that she showed her true self. It was so awesomely demonic. 

I always kind of thought that Ruby changed between seasons 3 and 4 on purpose.  I had never thought about learning from mistakes, and I suppose that's possible.  But, I think she knew from the get go that she would never get Dean to trust a demon.  But, if she pushed Sam at that point, Sam would never choose her over Dean.  She knew that Dean was going to die at the end of the year.  So, she waited until after he was gone to be a little more sympathetic with Sam and show a softer side. 

[poppy-]

But, what happened to the girl in the trunk? Did Sam eat her?

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, poppy- said:

But, what happened to the girl in the trunk? Did Sam eat her?

Well...more like he drank her. 

[poppy-]

Oh. Wow. But. He had Ruby wearing an actually dead girl RIGHT THERE.  Maybe she tricked him into thinking she had a role to play in killing Lillith?  Even so, .Ruby could just jump into someone else, right?  Or ........maybe the nurse persona was a trick ? I don't know.   I mean,  in theory, the girl in the trunk would be dead no matter what happened.  But the way he did  it.  Kind of  unforgivable.

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, poppy- said:

Oh. Wow. But. He had Ruby wearing an actually dead girl RIGHT THERE. 

Yes, but Ruby said he needed more than what she could give him to get the job done. That's why they put her in the trunk instead of exorcising the demon and trying to save the host. Pretty grim.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, poppy- said:

Oh. Wow. But. He had Ruby wearing an actually dead girl RIGHT THERE.  Maybe she tricked him into thinking she had a role to play in killing Lillith?  Even so, .Ruby could just jump into someone else, right?  Or ........maybe the nurse persona was a trick ? I don't know.   I mean,  in theory, the girl in the trunk would be dead no matter what happened.  But the way he did  it.  Kind of  unforgivable.

I think both the demon and the host was going to die from the blood drinking.  So, of course, Sam wasn't going to drink Ruby all the way up.  But, yes, I hate that they had him do that.  I think that throughout the entire series that is the one thing that either of them did that was unforgiveable.  And a reminder that if someone is going to refute that with something later in the series to take it to the All Episodes talk so as to not spoil people who have gotten past this point.

[bettername2come]

I really love how Bobby is trying to keep the guys together. He's a good fake daddy. "Are you under the impression that family's supposed to make you feel good? They're supposed to make you miserable! That's why they're family!" Demonic baby chef nurse is so not subtle. "Suite Life of Zack and Cas!" The idea of Dean watching Disney Channel was funny enough when it first aired, but it just gets better with future guest star. Why does Dean think he can call out of an angelic green room without interference? Oh, there's a harp. Angelic green room has a harp. "Cindy McKellan, RN! Come on down!" Nice transition from the demon to the freaked out human. Yes, Sam when you are ready to bleed and drink an innocent woman, you have definitely gone too far! And kick out a taillight, woman! Nice shot with Zechariah in the mirror. "Don't give me that holy crap!" Oh, Dean, protector of humanity, defier of destiny and puncher of angels. Better late than never, Cas. Chuck! "I'll hold them off! I'll hold them all off!"Go, Castiel! Be a badass angelic warrior! Ah, Sam with the black eyes is just chilling. Oh, Lilith. You should've known better than to wear a blonde and a white gown on this show.  Oh, Ruby. How I hate thee. "He's gonna repay you in ways you can't even imagine." Yeahh...sure. That moment of Sam and Dean clutching each other as the light floods the room is still my favorite season ending moment. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by bettername2come

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I really expected to see the angel statue at the convent crying - or blood running out of its eyes.  That would have been creepy.

I don't blame Dean for giving up on Sam.  Sometimes, no matter how much you don't want to, walking away is the best thing for all involved.  But Geez Louise, Dean - Sam going off to Stanford was not the same damn thing as him getting involved with Ruby and drinking demon blood.  Not even close.  

Sam putting the nurse in the trunk was all kinds of disturbing.  But Ruby did have a point (I know - I can't even believe I said that.) there was still a demon possessing her.  He couldn't just let her go.  (Plus, he did save the baby's life by taking her when he did.)  He could have exorcised her, but then they would have had to get another demon, and it would have been the same deal.  And damn, but Ruby was kind of right in the car too (good grief, just take away my keyboard now!) Sam, and Dean, killed enough demons with the knife not worrying one whit about the host.  And now he's getting all squicked out by it?  

I do love that Dean tried to bust through the wall of the angelic green room.  Too bad he didn't have his grenade launcher.  ;)

Oh, Cas was so lying about Dean at peace in paradise with Sam.  

Okay, based on the "I'll make sure he plays it" from Zach, I think he's the one who changed the voicemail.  But Ruby definitely knew.  At least they didn't actually show Sam drinking the nurse.  I think that might have made him absolutely irredeemable.  As it was, I had a hard enough time with his redemption the first time through.

It would have been actually kind of funny if Dean was about to take a bite of pie instead of burger when Cas grabbed him and shoved him against the wall.  

One thing I don't understand about Lilith: she knew she wouldn't survive the apocalypse.  She wanted to make the deal with Sam to call off breaking the seals, so why did she keep going through with it?

I like how Chuck's version of Lucifer Rising erased from his computer when Cas and Dean went off script.  Watching Chuck and Cas together awaiting the 'archangel' (if that's what it was) takes on a different perspective after S11's revelation. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't blame Dean for giving up on Sam.  Sometimes, no matter how much you don't want to, walking away is the best thing for all involved.  But Geez Louise, Dean - Sam going off to Stanford was not the same damn thing as him getting involved with Ruby and drinking demon blood.  Not even close.

It's hard to have Bobby excoriate Dean and call him a whiny brat and cry baby princess if they had just left it at Dean wanting to be away from Sam because Sam tried to strangle him hours before.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

nm.

Edited July 4, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
nope

[RulerofallIsurvey]

ON 7/16/2017 AT 5:14 PM, WAYWARD SON SAID:

Everytime I watch this episode I can never decide if this is some sort of elaborate test or the deal was a genuine "crisis of faith" on Lilith's part. What do you guys think? On the one hand I can understand her not wanting to die, but on the other hand if she was genuine why didn't she just say

  HIDE CONTENTS

"hey, I'm the final seal! Don't kill me if you want Lucifer to come back". But then if she was planning to weasel out of it... how could she have broke the final seal without Sam around to kill her?

 

      As I said above, Lilith knew she wouldn't survive the apocalypse.  She wanted to make a deal with Sam to call off breaking all the seals, so I don't understand why she just didn't stop the seals breaking on her own.  But I don't think she knew her death was the final seal, even if she knew she somehow wouldn't survive.  

[Wayward Son]

Overall, I find this to be a pretty great episode! I LOVE everything between Dean and Castiel in the green room and every time I watch the scene where Cas appears into the room, he and Dean share non verbal communication before banishing Zachariah I cheer! This was officially the moment Cas broke himself away from the corrupt influence of his superiors and I love it! Go Cas. Little rebel Castiel is always my favourite Castiel. I also thought the reveal that killing Lilith was the final seal was a rather clever twist! The attempts to tie in the physic kid storyline by revealing that Lucifer had assigned him to find a 'special kid' was also reasonably well done. Although ((Season 5 spoilers next))

 

Spoiler

in light of the reveal he needed Sam specifically to act as his vessel there are some plot holes. For instance, why was Azazel relatively unphased when Sam had been killed by Jake? I've chosen to adapt the head canon that Lucifer only told Azazel some of the facts. He perhaps gave a list of some names for Azazel to target and left it at that rather than revealing it was only Sam needed and the others were fillers to hide how special Sam was. Although I don't really see the need for fillers since the angels knew the Winchester line was the Michael and Lucifer line, but i disgress.

 

Overall, I just thought it was a great episode with the angels true agenda finally unveiled and the inevitable rise of Lucifer occurring. However, I do have one complaint about the episode! Genevieve's acting during the big reveal scene was absolutely terrible! The "I'm awesome" line actually makes me cringe :s.  

 

In regards to the Bobby line I've the UO that I totally agree with him here. I would have had sympathy for Dean's plight, but then he had to go and reiterate the tired message that Sam's decision to go to Stanford was abandoning his family. I'm sorry, but Dean really needs to grow up! Sam deciding to go to Stanford is not 'abandoning his family' or remotely comparable to his decision to drink blood and work with Ruby. Sam's desire to not live a life of pain and death is not a crime, which he should be continuously belittled for. If Dean had kept his thoughts to the situation on hand I'd have felt sorry for him, but his decision to whine about Stanford yet again just bursts that bubble and inspires a "boo hoo princess" response from me also. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Wayward Son
He worked with Ruby not Lilith LOL

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

In regards to the Bobby line I've the UO that I totally agree with him here. I would have had sympathy for Dean's plight, but then he had to go and reiterate the tired message that Sam's decision to go to Stanford was abandoning his family. I'm sorry, but Dean really needs to grow up! Sam deciding to go to Stanford is not 'abandoning his family' or remotely comparable to his decision to drink blood and work with Lilith. Sam's desire to not live a life of pain and death is not a crime, which he should be continuously belittled for. If Dean had kept his thoughts to the situation on hand I'd have felt sorry for him, but his decision to whine about Stanford yet again just bursts that bubble and inspires a "boo hoo princess" response from me also. 

And that is exactly where this episode goes to shit out of the gate for me. 

There is NO reason for Dean to still bring up Stanford ESPECIALLY when he made peace with it in s2.  Why trot it out now other than to prop up Bobby and Sam IMO in this episode. But it sure speaks volumes to this viewer that somehow Dean nearly being strangled to death is not worth being mentioned again in the narrative. It's ridiculous IMO to just excise that. For the life of me I will never understand it.

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And that is exactly where this episode goes to shit out of the gate for me. 

There is NO reason for Dean to still bring up Stanford ESPECIALLY when he made peace with it in s2.  Why trot it out now other than to prop up Bobby and Sam IMO in this episode. But it sure speaks volumes to this viewer that somehow Dean nearly being strangled to death is not worth being mentioned again in the narrative. It's ridiculous IMO to just excise that. For the life of me I will never understand it.

I'm of the unpopular opinion that I'm not sure that Dean had really made peace with it in season 2, or if he had, he changed his mind about it later on... maybe when Sam changed his mind about hunting and John himself. Because after that, when Sam was fully on board with the John did the best that he could and/or did the right thing thing, Dean was freer to go back to his thinking "our childhood was great. What is Sam talking about" rose-colored glasses thing he liked to fall back on. I thought there was evidence for this back in season 3 with "A Very Supernatural Christmas."

Now I admit, Dean had some doubts regarding their childhood / John later on in season 3 as evidenced by "Dream A Little Dream of Me," but still by the end of the season when his time was up, Dean wasn't envisioning Sam going back to college, he was envisioning Sam going back to hunting and carrying on the family tradition. "Keep fighting... Remember what Dad taught you. Remember what I taught you."

But even not taking any of that into account, I think Dean did have a reason for that to all come back up again, and that was because Dean felt betrayed and abandoned when for Dean, Sam was choosing Ruby over him... so it was like Sam "abandoning" him all over again. So Dean went back to that old hurt and equated Sam leaving to go to college with Sam choosing Ruby now. The same hurt

Spoiler

came up again later in "Dark Side of the Moon."

For me, it's a realistic family dynamic thing. Things can trigger old feelings, and even if you yourself thought you were over it... you know what, now that you think about it, this is the same exact thing he/she did back in <fill in the blank> and here it is all over again (no matter that it isn't really). Even when you know it's not rational, it doesn't matter. Even if your feelings aren't necessarily rational,  you still feel them anyway, and they are real to you. I looked at Dean's outburst of "If you walk out that door..." as a similar frustration to the one John likely felt when he said it. Sam had brought Dean to the breaking point - actually past it - and Sam was well past being gone by that point. But Dean wasn't looking at it as Sam's addiction consuming him. He was looking at it as Sam is just "leaving"  - giving up on Dean (his family) - all over again, because he himself wasn't in any shape to see it rationally.

I personally don't hold it against Dean for making that leap, nor do I think it was out of character. But then again, I like Dean as flawed, and not often - in my opinion - does the show allow Dean to have real flaws,*** so I appreciate it when he has a chink in his psyche that actually remains consistent.

But I understand that miles vary.

As for Sam beating up on Dean not being addressed again, this is not necessarily new for this show. I think the show takes a somewhat blue collar opinion that guys, and especially brothers, do this sort of thing, but when it comes down to it, they are still supposed to stick up for each other. When Dean hit Sam in season 2 for example, the solution wasn't an apology or admitting of wrong-doing, but instead an offer to even things up by hitting back. Sam didn't even seem to be all that hurt or upset by Dean hitting him. So it appeared that the attitude was just that Sam was supposed to just shrug it off because he knew that Dean was upset and not really himself. It also wasn't really addressed when Dean hit Sam earlier in season 4, except that time I think Sam did object a little and asked if Dean wanted to beat on him some more (? I don't rewatch season 4 much, so I'm a little fuzzy on that I'll admit).

Sam's attack on Dean was a case when Sam was not himself - obvious because Sam was drinking demon blood, which, hello, not normal or acceptable - so in my opinion not addressing it again even after Sam was detoxed was the show compartmentalizing addiction Sam vs regular Sam a bit. There was a repeat, for example,

Spoiler

in "Good God, Y'All" where the addiction aspect came back. But it was again not really addressed when Sam was "normal" again.

So for me it was like in season 2 when the show was compartmentalizing upset, grief stricken Dean versus regular Dean - who normally would not hit Sam. I suppose the show could've also had Sam give an offer of reciprocation in this case, except that there was a mutual fight between both of them already in this episode, and I wouldn't really see that as something Sam would do personality-wise.

I'm also of the opinion that if the show really wanted to prop Sam up in this episode, they wouldn't have made him so completely wrong or made him look like an idiot. For me the writing went out of the way doing that more than anything else. Especially since Castiel's actions in the last episode - and even this one - were mostly excused, since he was given a redemption arc with his sacrifice. Yes, there were extenuating circumstances in his case, but still... But I've picked that nit before, and I'm apparently at a table of one there, so...

*** And by real flaws, I mean ones that aren't surface things (like that he's a horndog, or he's a little bossy) or self esteem issues - which to me are sort of like being "too humble." That Dean holds grudges sometimes is one of the few flaws that Dean actually has somewhat consistently and for me, it makes him human.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But I've picked that nit before, and I'm apparently at a table of one there, so...

Scooch on over and make some room... ;)

[Iju]

On 29/09/2014 at 12:05 PM, catrox14 said:

 I hate this  episode because of the boo-hoo princess speech Bobby unleashes on Dean. It pisses me off to this day. It's horrible and awful how often Dean's legitimate emotions are downplayed and outright mocked by the people that supposedly love him.  To my mind, it doesn't matter that Bobby may or may not have known that Sam beat the crap out of Dean. And no, fuck that "Family is supposed to make you miserable" shit.  Shut up Bobby. 

 

 

 

THIS. yet again i am forced into the americanised ideal of family: "Always stick with your family no matter what" lmao excuse me? i'm with dean here. because he's blood he needs to be with sam? now i'm not voting for dean to leave sam but his reasons on the whole family business was right. family IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT. also, dean was holding onto sam for so long and now he has a SPLIT SECOND of letting go and bobby lights into that? and to put the final stab in the gut he attacks his father, his idol, and calls him a horrible word (regardless of it being true or not).

and i don't give a single crap about what anyone in the fanbase says or even the show itself, john loved his sons and he trained them to be the best hunters in the business, all by himself. he trained them to look out for each other not because he needed two mini hunters to survive. why people are so heartless towards john. he was forced into being a hunter and did his best, he was living as a normal person and suddenly in his adult life he has to keep running from state to state with his sons, hunting and protecting his sons. now if he was a born hunter and did this with his sons, then yeah maybe i would understand. but do you really think that if sam and dean had normal lives john would still be a terrible father? everyone is allowed their opinion. the fanbase, bobby. but there's this idea running around that john being a bad father is some sort of fact. bobby was not there when john was holding in azazel and yelling at sam to kill him with the colt. yeah, so cowardly. anyway, enough with that.

i liked cass before, but i love him now. he was so scared to tell dean the truth, he didn't understand why he was risking so much to talk to sam again, but dean finally cracked his head open to the truth and he risked everything and rebelled against the angels, finally. such a big character change for him. there's good angels dean, and he's one of good ones :)

speaking of cass, when he said "Lilith IS the seal!" my family just sat there and soaked in everything from S3 up to now. ruby is the biggest snake of all time. that bitxh LIED HER A** FOR SO MANY EPISODES, HECK SHE JUST LIED LAST EP SAYING SHE WAS LOOKING FOR LILITH!!!! and it makes sense why cass let sam free, it wasn't for any journey to find himself or anything, it was all the angels' ploy. and the separation that kept widening more and more for the brothers, the angels PURPOSEFULLY DID THAT. and they freaking lied to both of their faces or sam needed to stop the demon powers, they KNEW he would keep going because in fact they NEEDED him. so much lies. so much betrayal. so much heartlessness. on the angels and the demons.

PLUS:

the scene when zach was talking to dean about his mission, the lighting paled and heaven wasn't so heavenly anymore. i liked that, i thought it was cool.

when chuck put his hand on cass. SPN has to put comedic moments in there somewhere don't they? ;)

i almost burst into tears when sam heard that twisted call from dean. real sam would know that it was BS but that call was just to twist sam even further. i immediately thought it was zach's doing but my family assumed it was ruby and hey, i'm all for hating ruby. 

the scene when sam is going to let loose on lilith and he hears dean's voice, screaming for him over and over, one last time (P.S., me and my family are screaming for him to listen to him, of course.). (good) sam is still there at this point, he's willing to toss everything away for him, he doesn't even see or hear ruby, just him. jared does tremendous acting during this, sam's expressions of confliction and even hope at the other side of the door. i know in my heart if ruby didn't shut that goddang door dean would have saved him. dangit if that scene doesn't get to me. the slowmo, the snake of a witch ruby trying to get his attention, dean's soft but powerful screams, it's so beautiful. then that lilith has to ruin it all. ugh.

yeah yeah, let's laugh or be angry  (or both) at sam for falling for the tricks. "it was all his choices" yes, but it all started when he was at his weakest and would do anything for some help because dean was gone. and then dean being different when he came out of hell really made sam go to ruby even more. i'm not excusing everything he did i'm just saying, he didn't wake up out of nowhere and want to kill innocent people and drink demon blood. ugh. those WITCHES lilth and ruby. top TV villains for sure. no. VILLAINS.

when sam stood up and grabbed ruby, making sure dean could stab her. YES. finally they are at the same page. it only took so much, but we're here again, at last. one of the best moments of the episode, the SEASON. this bitxh separated them, took so much from them, for so long. nothing i detest more than lying. nothing.

and lastly: how are the boys going to repair theirselves after this? i will have to wait later although i wish i could binge now ;_; ;_;

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, Iju said:

nothing i detest more than lying. nothing.

Me too.

[Iju]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Me too.

hear hear!

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, Iju said:

hear hear!

Ruby pretending to be something she wasn't was the worst. Two-faced bitch.

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ruby pretending to be something she wasn't was the worst. Two-faced bitch.

She's a demon, what do you expect?  It's why she's my favorite demon.  I just feel that  a demon would be more manipulative and sly as opposed to just kicking butt all the time.

[gonzosgirrl]

43 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She's a demon, what do you expect?  It's why she's my favorite demon.  I just feel that  a demon would be more manipulative and sly as opposed to just kicking butt all the time.

Yes, true - it's the sly, manipulative ones that wreak the most havoc. Fortunately they almost always slip up and get exposed in the end. I was glad that it was Dean who got to stab her in the guts.

[Iju]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ruby pretending to be something she wasn't was the worst. Two-faced bitch.

yes. all that lying she did to sam and dean, all those freaking lies about her being "different" and how she remembers her human side, i'm sorry i even gave her my 1% trust.

[DeeDee79]

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 9:51 PM, Katy M said:

It's why she's my favorite demon.  I just feel that  a demon would be more manipulative and sly as opposed to just kicking butt all the time.

This also perfectly describes Crowley, my favorite demon :)

[DeeDee79]

I've been rewatching season 4 trying to get a new appreciation for it since it's my least favorite season.

Spoiler

Knowing what we find out in season 7 about Bobby makes me hate his speech to Dean all over again. "Family is supposed to make you miserable, it's why they're family" For Bobby it meant watching your father beat the crap out of your mother and you on a daily basis, killing said father to escape the abuse and be blamed by your mother for doing so. Considering Bobby's family history his stance that family is supposed to make you miserable is pretty f-ed up and further shows that his speech was crap IMO.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This also perfectly describes Crowley, my favorite demon :)

I liked Crowley up until they started making him so wishy-washy.  So, I guess with the human blood addiction.  That, and Sam only worked with Ruby until he realized she was lying.  It just irked me that they were ALWAYS working with the enemy.  But, what did make Crowley great was that he always knew everything, but kept most of it under his hat until the right time.  I'm feeling old Crowley nostalgic.

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, what did make Crowley great was that he always knew everything, but kept most of it under his hat until the right time. 

So true! He was the perfect frenemy.

[DeeDee79]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:59 PM, DeeDee79 said:

I've been rewatching season 4 trying to get a new appreciation for it since it's my least favorite season.

Quoting myself since I'm attempting to rewatch season 4 in its entirety ( again ) but I almost succeeded this time ( yay me! ) and I have a question that I didn't have before about this episode. Regarding Sam's eyes turning black as he killed Lilith: since his powers originated from blood from the YED wouldn't it have made more sense for his eyes to have turned yellow? I think it would have been more of a shock than the run of the mill black eyes. I also wonder why Meg's eyes weren't yellow since she was Azazel's daughter but that's a discussion for another thread. Anyone else ever have this thought?

[Katy M]

40 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Quoting myself since I'm attempting to rewatch season 4 in its entirety ( again ) but I almost succeeded this time ( yay me! ) and I have a question that I didn't have before about this episode. Regarding Sam's eyes turning black as he killed Lilith: since his powers originated from blood from the YED wouldn't it have made more sense for his eyes to have turned yellow? I think it would have been more of a shock than the run of the mill black eyes. I also wonder why Meg's eyes weren't yellow since she was Azazel's daughter but that's a discussion for another thread. Anyone else ever have this thought?

As for Sam, I think black eyes make sense, because he's just starting to be demonish.  As for Meg, I'm not sure how her being Azazel's daughter even makes sense.  I think this is a case of not knowing what they were doing.  We don't find out until Season 3 that demons are humans turned demon.  So, maybe show didn't know that yet either.  So, if Meg was Azazel's daughter before he died and became a demon, I don't know that she'd have special powers at death. But, on the other hand, that would make her extremely old and therefore one would think more powerful.  It's best not to think too much about it.

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

As for Sam, I think black eyes make sense, because he's just starting to be demonish. 

This is a good point because Sam wasn't full on demon. On the other hand since he was fed Azazel's blood when he was just an infant and he was one of the "chosen" of a prince of hell it would have made more sense ( IMO ) for his eyes to be yellow especially considering his "boy king" status. I know that it's easier not to think too hard about it but it's a bit aggravating when you try to apply logic to canon that jumps all over the place.

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think this is a case of not knowing what they were doing. 

Extreme understatement!

[AwesomO4000]

On 4/12/2018 at 8:59 PM, DeeDee79 said:

I've been rewatching season 4 trying to get a new appreciation for it since it's my least favorite season.

I thought that I was the only one here who didn't really like season 4. It used to be my least favorite season also... until season 8 and 9 came along.

I still have a hard time considering rewatching the season much, though, so I admire your renewed attempt above. I generally just pick out my few favorite episodes from the season and they are almost all standalones.

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Regarding Sam's eyes turning black as he killed Lilith: since his powers originated from blood from the YED wouldn't it have made more sense for his eyes to have turned yellow?

I'm not sure that the writers really considered this at the time, but I could be wrong. I don't think it really makes any sense, though, until we find out in season 12 that there is

Spoiler

a different class of demons - Princes of Hell who were supposedly created by Lucifer to lead the armies of Hell and who had yellow eyes.

I'm guessing that Azazel was also one and that a demon has to be given that transformation / creation / whatever in order to have yellow eyes and that even being the spawn of that kind of demon or being given blood by that kind of demon isn't enough to have that special status and powers. That was my interpretation anyway.

But, in my opinion, that only makes sense in retrospect after season 12.

[gonzosgirrl]

If I'm remembering correctly,  when Dean hallucinated Sam in Yellow Fever his eyes were yellow. I realize that was about Dean's fears, still it would've been a fun bit of continuity if they turned yellow when his powers were peaking. But then (I think) that would've meant some kind of ascension and it would've made even less sense that his powers seemingly burned out after he blew his load, so to speak, killing Lilith.

I never thought Meg and the male demon Dean killed were literally Azazel's biological offspring. More his "children" in the same sense that Sam and Max and Ava etc.,  were his because he made them what they were. I don't mean he necessarily turned them as human babies like he did the psy-kids, but he chose them somehow. Made then his own. I imagine if Dean had stayed in Hell, Alistair would have considered him his son, too.

Edited January 3, 2019 by gonzosgirrl