The Black Hole of Plot Holes

[staveDarsky]

In "Silence in the Library," The Doctor meets River for the first time and ... They already knew David Tennant was leaving at this point, so this seems like a major plot hole to me.

Tennant didn't announce his departure publicly till the end of October 2008. This aired the May before that.

[elle]

Rewatching the Christmas specials reminded me of some questions I have.

 

In "The Doctor, the Widow, and the Wardrobe", in the original airing of that show, was there a mention of the plane's crew after it have safely returned home?  We see the dad's return, but there are at least two other people who should be with him, and one was badly injured.

 

In the "snowman episode", I have always doubted that a woman in Victorian times would willing lead the double life that Clara is pulling off.  There would be so many opportunities for things to go wrong.  I guess it wasn't as fun for the writers to have them meet plainly rather than the 'meet cute' they did write.

[kassygreene]

The Clara in The Snowmen is one of the Impossible Girl splinters, so not a genuine Victorian at all.  And in The Name of the Doctor, she has no memory of the events of Snowmen.  All part of the "how much does Clara remember?" which I don't think Show has addressed (but I'm just watching Death in Heaven, so maybe Show will address).

[Bruinsfan]

I'm not making excuses for the writing on this show, but supposedly: The Weeping Angels are the 'perfect predator'. When their prey is unaware of them they are able to stalk and kill; when their prey notices them, they freeze (like statues) and become difficult to destroy.

I've managed thus far to avoid all but the first minute or so of Matt Smith's run, so I'm only going by the original appearance of the Weeping Angels in "Blink". But my impression from the talk of them being abstract beings from the early days of the universe and of quantum locking was that they were more like a static idea that merely resembles stone statues in their observed form, which couldn't be affected by outside forces. Hence the need to trick them into immobilizing each other rather than using Time Lord technology to destroy them in a direct fashion.

[elle]

The Clara in The Snowmen is one of the Impossible Girl splinters, so not a genuine Victorian at all.  And in The Name of the Doctor, she has no memory of the events of Snowmen.  All part of the "how much does Clara remember?" which I don't think Show has addressed (but I'm just watching Death in Heaven, so maybe Show will address).

Yes, she is one of the splinter Claras, however, as she herself says, she feels she has lived and died many times.  With that in mind, plus the montage of seeing her go from baby to girl to woman in Victorian times and the fact that everyone else around her are of that era and would treat her as a women in that era; my question still stands about her pulling off this double life as a respectable governess and a quasi-respectable/looked down upon barmaid.

 

Sorry that "Death in Heaven" failed to address anything related to pre-twelve Clara.

 

A different plot hole - back to Rose and Donna!  In "Turn Left" we see and hear how Rose is able with the help of Unit to use the TARDIS chronon energy to be able to jump through space, time, and parallel dimensions.  Where did they get the TARDIS they are using?  Ten certainly did not leave it behind in the parallel universe.  I though maybe they picked it up after Ten died, but then how did Rose get there in the first place without the TARDIS powering her leap?

[angora]

I thought the TARDIS was only facilitating the mirror time travel, not Rose's jumps between worlds. She mentions in, I think, Journey's End that she started working on it with parallel Torchwood almost immediately after Bad Wolf Bay. They had no luck until it suddenly started to work around the start of series 4, which indicated that the walls between dimensions were breaking down due to the impending reality bomb.

[elle]

I thought the TARDIS was only facilitating the mirror time travel, not Rose's jumps between worlds. She mentions in, I think, Journey's End that she started working on it with parallel Torchwood almost immediately after Bad Wolf Bay. They had no luck until it suddenly started to work around the start of series 4, which indicated that the walls between dimensions were breaking down due to the impending reality bomb.

Still, where did they get their TARDIS?   I thought there was something about no Doctor or no Time Lords in the parallel world.

[Llywela]

Still, where did they get their TARDIS?   I thought there was something about no Doctor or no Time Lords in the parallel world.

It's a valid question! I believe there is a deleted scene where the Doctor gives Rose and the not!Doctor a piece of his TARDIS, telling them they can grow a TARDIS of their own from it, but that scene never aired, so as far as the televised show is concerned, that exchange never happened.

[Jeezaloo]

I've managed thus far to avoid all but the first minute or so of Matt Smith's run, so I'm only going by the original appearance of the Weeping Angels in "Blink". But my impression from the talk of them being abstract beings from the early days of the universe and of quantum locking was that they were more like a static idea that merely resembles stone statues in their observed form, which couldn't be affected by outside forces. Hence the need to trick them into immobilizing each other rather than using Time Lord technology to destroy them in a direct fashion.

You might be right on that. But the amount of confusing writing about them just warps any understanding of them. What was the deal with videos of them having some sort of power? And what about the Statue of Liberty? If being observed makes you unable to hunt, why become a giant statue in the middle of one of the most traveled waterways? I never understood that.

[angora]

Still, where did they get their TARDIS?   I thought there was something about no Doctor or no Time Lords in the parallel world.

 

 

It's a valid question! I believe there is a deleted scene where the Doctor gives Rose and the not!Doctor a piece of his TARDIS, telling them they can grow a TARDIS of their own from it, but that scene never aired, so as far as the televised show is concerned, that exchange never happened.

Didn't UNIT pick up the TARDIS at HC Clements after the Doctor died defeating the Rachnoss?  I assumed they found it and brought it back to their HQ but didn't know what to do with it/how to create time travel with its help until Rose showed up.  I thought the TARDIS came from our world (or rather, the parallel that split off from it when Donna turned right,) not from Rose's parallel.  She crossed over with her Torchwood's dimension cannon thing, no TARDIS required on her end.

[elle]

This isn't as much as a plot hole question but rather a why would they do that question: "Family of Blood" is up in the Martha season repeats. Why would the Doctor pick pre-WWI England as his choice of place to hide?  Did he even consider what would happen to Martha in that time?  (Did I ask this one already?)

[HauntedBathroom]

Because he's a dick, and no he didn't.

[elle]

I thought he was a David.   (sorry, couldn't resist that one tonight)

 

Otoh, replace "he" with "the writers" and you've got it right.  It just never made sense to me, the man against war willing choosing a time and job where he would be  preparing children for war.  Then, the revenge he takes on the Family is more horrible than just out right defending himself against them by killing them.  I think this was the episode that really turned me against Ten for a while.

 

Off to another Ten episode, but about the other main character in that episode - River.  At the end, when River has been saved into the computer, she is joined by the rest of her crew, including Miss Evangelista.  We saw Miss E. earlier, saved with a transcription error, that was fixed when the system was rebooted.

 

How were Miss E., Dave, the other Dave, and Anita saved by CAL?

 

Also, wasn't there a scene at the very end of the episode of River saying good night Donna's "children" ?

[Llywela]

Also, wasn't there a scene at the very end of the episode of River saying good night Donna's "children" ?

Yes, but they weren't Donna's children, they were the children of the matrix, so to speak - it had been established that all children in that virtual world were the same two children.

 

I wouldn't question it too much. It doesn't make a great deal of sense and I never saw it as a triumphant ending, 'saving' River. I always thought it was a horrible thing to do, trapping someone's consciousness or a facsimile thereof, in a virtual world they know isn't real, instead of letting them go.

[elle]

Yes, but they weren't Donna's children, they were the children of the matrix, so to speak - it had been established that all children in that virtual world were the same two children.

 

 

Thanks for confirming that there was a scene that was once included in the episode.  I knew that the children were not real and I thought it was an odd scene when I first saw it, then I never saw it again!  Editing for commercials, bleh!

 

I wouldn't question it too much. It doesn't make a great deal of sense and I never saw it as a triumphant ending, 'saving' River. I always thought it was a horrible thing to do, trapping someone's consciousness or a facsimile thereof, in a virtual world they know isn't real, instead of letting them go.

Creepy, yes, better there than what could happen...wink, wink, nudge, nudge  (stupid Missy storyline)

 

But that reminds me, if River was just an echo as Eleven says to her, how could Vastra physically link with her?

[Llywela]

But that reminds me, if River was just an echo as Eleven says to her, how could Vastra physically link with her?

She couldn't. Just as River couldn't actually be any kind of 'echo' capable of physically interacting with either Clara or the Doctor, especially not in another time zone halfway across the universe. It was just particularly stupid storytelling that went for emotional heartstrings over actual plausibility without any attempt at rationalising how it could be possible. It couldn't give an explanation because there wasn't one. It happened because the writer wanted it to happen and for no better reason than that. Moffat isn't interested in scientific plausibility or even the pretence of such. His version of Doctor Who isn't even soft science fiction. It's pure fantasy, which doesn't have to provide a reason for anything. Things happen just because.

[Ripley68]

In "The time of the Angels" 11 says the angels are nearly indestructable in frozen form, or something to that effect

[Raingirlkm]

This isn't as much as a plot hole question but rather a why would they do that question: "Family of Blood" is up in the Martha season repeats. Why would the Doctor pick pre-WWI England as his choice of place to hide?  Did he even consider what would happen to Martha in that time?  (Did I ask this one already?)

IIRC the in-episode explanation is that the TARDIS was the one picking the time and place for them to hide.

[Eozostrodon]

Human Nature/Family of Blood is an adaptation of a previous Doctor Who story, and in the original 'Human Nature' the Doctor's companion happened to be white. I guess they didn't want to re-write the episode to set it elsewhere, after casting a non-white actress in the new companion role.

They didn't create Martha as being non-white, it just that the actress they liked best for the role, happened to be non-white.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Eozostrodon

[Ringthane]

I had a thought - why does the Doctor need to find Gallifrey anyway?  Unless I missed something, he just froze it in a pocket universe - it didn't actually move.  So it should be in the same place as always, but the pocket universe is there instead.  If the scheme was to move Gallifrey as well, why didn't the Doctor know where he moved it to?  And wasn't that the whole idea - Gallifrey goes into the pocket universe, and the Daleks then blow each other up because they're still surrounding where Gallifrey used to be?  It just seems like either there's a plot hole somewhere there, or I missed something.  If you see what I mean.

[HauntedBathroom]

The Doctors' attitudes certainly suggest that Gallifrey physically moved when they put it in the pocket universe, hence Capaldi's "D'oh!!" reaction when Missy told him to go looking for Gallifrey in the same coordinates that it used it be.

[Ringthane]

The Doctor's really slipping then, because not only did 8 lose his memory a few times, three of them managed to misplace an entire planet.

 

I just wish Moffat had made it a little clearer.  But then, this is Moffat we're talking about.  Too busy building a shrine to Clara to care about silly trifles like plot and such, 

[wayne67]

I'm still puzzling over how Ten 2 with the mind of the Doctor in a human body functioned when Donna Doctor apparently couldn't survive intact.

 

It's probably best not to think about that as a consolation doctor was weird and The Doctor falling in love with a 20 year old made little sense.

[elle]

I'm still puzzling over how Ten 2 with the mind of the Doctor in a human body functioned when Donna Doctor apparently couldn't survive intact.

 

It's probably best not to think about that as a consolation doctor was weird and The Doctor falling in love with a 20 year old made little sense.

(one I can take a crack at!)

Because Ten.2 was regenerated from Handy, he was mostly Time Lord with a little bit of human thrown in while Donna was fully human when the meta-crisis happened.  She only got the knowledge of a Time Lord, plus a regeneration energy defense mechanism, but not the brain of a Time Lord.

 

The question I have is how Ten.2 will adjust to the very slow human life as well as how long will it take Rose to become un-enamored of a Tardis-less Time Lord.

 

My question of the "Day" is why would the Daleks, who hate EVERYTHING human, see the "need" to create human/dalek puppets as seen in "Asyulm of the Daleks" 

[wayne67]

(one I can take a crack at!)

Because Ten.2 was regenerated from Handy, he was mostly Time Lord with a little bit of human thrown in while Donna was fully human when the meta-crisis happened.  She only got the knowledge of a Time Lord, plus a regeneration energy defense mechanism, but not the brain of a Time Lord.

 

But ten 2 explained that he will age like a human getting old like Rose ... Can you have a brain of a Time lord with a human physiology ?

 

Instead of becoming senile after 13 generations he'll go senile after 3 decades...

 

Also Rose is technically hooking up with a newborn clone... That is all sorts of weird and creepy.

 

The ratio of Time Lord-ness is a hand's worth compared to Donna entire body to add to the human equation. Ten 2 should theoretically have a Time Lord hand

 

I'm more confused as to why the Daleks cared about keeping Adelaide (from Waters of Mars) alive when they were planning on setting off a reality bomb...

 

A lot of these plots make no sense without an awful lot of fan wanking

[elle]

Oh, hand waving all over the place!  It is aggravating my carpal tunnel syndrome....

 

But ten 2 explained that he will age like a human getting old like Rose ... Can you have a brain of a Time lord with a human physiology ?

You are correct, sir!  And as I recall, he said he had all the same memories, but not the same abilities as Ten.  So he probably doesn't have the whole Time Lord seeing through time kind of brain that I thought he might and that is why he can survive and Donna could not.

 

I'm more confused as to why the Daleks cared about keeping Adelaide (from Waters of Mars) alive when they were planning on setting off a reality bomb...

Maybe to make her one of their puppets?

[kassygreene]

She was apparently a fixed point in time, or what happened on Mars was the fixed point and she had to be there.  The Doctor's attempt to unfix the point got re-set anyway, when she got around his attempt to save her life...

[elle]

But 12 is an older, crankier, more emotionally aloof man - he spent 900 years on the planet called Christmas, watching this utopia fall apart because of him, his only constant companion being the senile head of a cyberman called Handles.  For Clara that same time sequence happened in the span of half a day.  11 was far and away the longest regeneration - about 1100 years.

Moving the sound of my strangled scream over here....

 

Eleven should have never been on that planet!  The whatever directorate could have quarentined the planet in the first place and NO ONE would have needed to die.  Okay, yeah, sure, the TARDIS and the Doctor's time stream wind up on Trenzalore eventually but come on writers!  The last place Eleven should go or  should *know* not to go is the one planet where everyone will die because he shows up there.

[HauntedBathroom]

She was apparently a fixed point in time, or what happened on Mars was the fixed point and she had to be there.  The Doctor's attempt to unfix the point got re-set anyway, when she got around his attempt to save her life...

But if the Daleks are destroying the whole of reality, the odds are good they're going to wipe out a load of fixed points anyway. So why should the Daleks care about this one?

[elle]

Rather odd mixture on BBCA of episodes of 11, 12, and then 11 again.  Many, many plot holes generated!

[Llywela]

But if the Daleks are destroying the whole of reality, the odds are good they're going to wipe out a load of fixed points anyway. So why should the Daleks care about this one?

My take on this is that just because the Doctor came up with a hypothesis that seemed logical to him, doesn't necessarily mean it's true. It's just as likely that the Dalek simply couldn't be bothered slaughtering a lone child in an attic when, for e.g., taking out the entire family next door would make a much larger statement, or it had filled its quota and wasn't prepared to give a second of overtime, or something. There are other possible explanations. The Doctor latched onto one that made sense to him, but he wasn't there, he doesn't actually know.

[elle]

Plot holes right?  Right?

 

"The Impossible Astronaut" - Since this is the Doctor's 12th regeneration, it would not have taken anything special to kill him, because he would not regenerate!  We didn't know about the War Doctor yet, but tptb or the in-universe whatever keeps track of regenerations, did know.

 

"The Day of the Moon" - They explained the entire premise of "Listen" in one sentence!

Canton: How long do you think? (referring to how long the Silence creatures have been on Earth)
The Doctor: As long as there's been something in the corner of your eye, or creaking in your house or breathing under your bed or voices through a wall. They've been running your lives for a very long time now, so keep this straight in your head. We are not fighting an alien invasion. We're leading a revolution. And today the battle begins.

 

Do these people not watch their own show?

[HauntedBathroom]

Plot holes right?  Right?

 

"The Impossible Astronaut" - Since this is the Doctor's 12th regeneration, it would not have taken anything special to kill him, because he would not regenerate!  We didn't know about the War Doctor yet, but tptb or the in-universe whatever keeps track of regenerations, did know.

 

But only the people in the TARDIS, or those who met 10.5 in the Dalek control ship know about him, and he sods off to another dimension as soon as the story's over. The Silence don't know he exists.

 

As for tptb, at that point 10.5 hasn't been counted as a full regeneration, he's just a hiccup.

[elle]

But only the people in the TARDIS, or those who met 10.5 in the Dalek control ship know about him, and he sods off to another dimension as soon as the story's over. The Silence don't know he exists.

 

As for tptb, at that point 10.5 hasn't been counted as a full regeneration, he's just a hiccup.

That is some hiccup! ;0)

 

I was referring to John Hurt's doctor aka The War Doctor.  He does count as a full regeneration which is why we had Clara asking the crack in the wall to give the Doctor more life.  You are right about the Silence not knowing about John Hurt, who would count as 9.  At this point I think the writers didn't know about the John Hurt-War Doctor!

 

It occurred to me that The Doctor, though consciously not wanting to remember, would know that he was on his last regeneration.  All water under the bridge....

[HauntedBathroom]

My interpretation is that the Doctor knows the War Doctor counts as a regeneration, but he didn't count 10.5. You could argue that Eleven only realises that he's out of regenerations in Let's Kill Hitler, when the TARDIS tells him he can't regenerate.

[Archery]

This isn't as much as a plot hole question but rather a why would they do that question: "Family of Blood" is up in the Martha season repeats. Why would the Doctor pick pre-WWI England as his choice of place to hide?  Did he even consider what would happen to Martha in that time?  (Did I ask this one already?)

Well, it's not like the TARDIS picked 1950's Mississippi, or 1705 Britain, when Martha would have been a slave.  The TARDIS picked the last peaceful rural point in England's history, where Martha could be a "servant" -- which was necessary to keep her close to John Smith morning, noon, and night for his protection without raising eyebrows.  It was hard work for her, but a fairly simple life, one that she could deal with for a month.  And the casual racism depicted against her wasn't really any different from, say, last week. 

[elle]

Well, it's not like the TARDIS picked 1950's Mississippi, or 1705 Britain, when Martha would have been a slave.  The TARDIS picked the last peaceful rural point in England's history, where Martha could be a "servant" -- which was necessary to keep her close to John Smith morning, noon, and night for his protection without raising eyebrows.  It was hard work for her, but a fairly simple life, one that she could deal with for a month.  And the casual racism depicted against her wasn't really any different from, say, last week. 

I questioned not just that time period for Martha's sake, but also for Ten. (Martha was treated better in Shakespeare's London)  For Ten, the man so against war, he is set down in a role where he is training boys for war.  But, that is where the writers wanted to take the story.  I won't get started on what happened to "the family".

 

If someone could explain the point to "The Time of the Doctor" other than to introduce 12 (and imply Matt Smith being naked), it would be greatly appreciated.  For example, in no particular order, if Trenzalore was such a dangerous tipping point, only guessing that the Time Lords would come back, why wouldn't someone such as the Papal Mainframe or the Shadow Proclamation quarantine the planet to keep everyone away, including the Doctor.

 

And wasn't there a condition on the planet that the GI mentioned where any question asked must be answered?  Then, how did Eleven avoid having to answer "Doctor Who" this time around; last time River answered for him, but this time he just kept a small town named Christmas trapped in a centuries long war.

[April Bloodgate]

Well, it's not like the TARDIS picked 1950's Mississippi, or 1705 Britain, when Martha would have been a slave.  The TARDIS picked the last peaceful rural point in England's history, where Martha could be a "servant" -- which was necessary to keep her close to John Smith morning, noon, and night for his protection without raising eyebrows.  It was hard work for her, but a fairly simple life, one that she could deal with for a month.  And the casual racism depicted against her wasn't really any different from, say, last week. 

Yes, it's not as bad as if she were a slave. But why couldn't they have gone somewhere more contemporary or into the future where she could pretend to be his adopted sister or something and she could still be a doctor, or some other, less demeaning profession?

[elle]

I agree it's a missed opportunity.  900 years in one place would change you and how does the Doctor just go back to traveling through time and space as though nothing has changed?  And why has he developed a psycotic hatred for soldiers?  I would assume its from 900 years of fighting a war but it was never delved into on the show.

(snipping a lot)

Doctor Who End of Days could have provided great storyline material for the Doctor.

Yes, agreed, indeed, dude, word etc....!

 

I've been told that I have an obsessive "need to know", the ?WHY? of things.  "The Time of the Doctor" and basically everything that happened since have left me screaming "WHY" (among other things).  I guess the only answer I'm going to get is because that's the way they/tptb/Moffet wanted it.

 

But it doesn't mean I have to accept it any more than I have to accept JJ Abrams NuStarTrek "Tribble of Youth"!.

Edited September 25, 2015 by elle

[elle]

How did Artie, Clara's charge, find a supposedly classified photo of Clara and the Doctor on a Soviet era submarine at school?  Just googling around or was it an assignment on nuclear subs?

[John Potts]

Llywela the Dalek simply couldn't be bothered slaughtering a lone child in an attic... and wasn't prepared to give a second of overtime

 

 

I just love the image of a dalek going "Geez, why do I have to do all the exterminating around here - I've blown away five hundred humans this week and that lazy Sig Theta hasn't got out of double figures... let him put in the zapping hours for once!"

[snarktini]

And wasn't there a condition on the planet that the GI mentioned where any question asked must be answered?  Then, how did Eleven avoid having to answer "Doctor Who" this time around; last time River answered for him, but this time he just kept a small town named Christmas trapped in a centuries long war.

The condition in Christmas was they couldn't *lie*. But they could withhold. In their first meeting with locals, the guy suggested they stop talking until they got used to it since they were spilling way too much truth.

[angora]

Here's one that bugs me.  If previously-uncounted Doctors meant that Eleven was supposed to be the last regeneration, how did he have regeneration energy to give to River in "The Angels Take Manhattan," fixing her broken wrist?  (Yeah, I know the meta reason - Moffat hadn't decided Eleven was the last one yet - but still.  Inquiring minds want to know.)

[HauntedBathroom]

Because it takes a lot less energy to fix a wrist than to build a whole new body. It was probably just a few weeks worth of energy from him.

Edited May 16, 2016 by HauntedBathroom

[Daisy]

So here is my plot hole. 

Seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4 and the 50th. 

If the entire "omg, yay!!" of the 50th is that the Doctor didn't destroy Gallifrey - only hid it in time. .... then what the bloody hell got time locked?  This war was so dangerous, that not only did Nine (or rather "War Doctor" - whatever, Moffatt), had to blow up his home, and commit two kinds of genocide - he also somehow slapped a timelock on the entire event. (OR the timelock was already ON the war so I'd imagine they couldn't go back and meddle with stuff, they never explained the timelock - just that Dalek Khan went back and turned insane because of it). 

And if Gallifrey is just lost... 

Then what the hell destroyed the Nestine homeworld, and the Gelth homeworld, and the other things mentioned in Seasons 1 and 2 that was flat out impacted by the destruction of the planet. I'm pretty sure the Sontarians said something akin to they were happy when they realised Gallifrey was destroyed, because they didn't allow them to join them in battle.. 

Like. Moffatt. Seriously, man. 
 

[HauntedBathroom]

Those planets were destroyed by the war, not the destruction of Gallifey. Why would that affect planets in whole other galaxies?

[Ripley68]

The Daleks were still destroyed, and it LOOKED like Gallifrey was destroyed, something the Doctor chose not to divulge as false.  My question revolves more around the "can't go back in his own timeline" thing (though I guess the Rose thing made a loophole for that).  the 11th Doctor obviously remembered the events in England with Elizabeth (when the wormhole shows up and he says, "oh, this is where I come in." but he doesn't remember anything else?  Yeah, I know, "The doctor lies." But so much of the Doctor's angst is from the destruction of Gallifrey, why doesn't 9, 10, or 11 remember Gallifrey is actually timelocked?   I usually have no problem with time travel stuff, but that one bugs me.

Another Angels problem from the episodes with River Song and younger Amy.  If Angels are solitary creatures (as 10th Doctor said) because they can't risk being seen, how could there be such a herd of them chasing everyone through the caves of the dead or whatever they were called? Wouldn't the ones in the back be quantum locking the ones in front of them?  Angels become Quantum locked when they are seen....it says nothing about Angels needing to see the thing that is seeing them to become locked.

[Raingirlkm]

2 hours ago, Ripley68 said:

Angels become Quantum locked when they are seen....it says nothing about Angels needing to see the thing that is seeing them to become locked.

Yeah, what always really bugged me about Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone was the Doctor telling Amy to act like she could see them so they would stay locked. If that was the way it worked then why the injunction not to blink?! If it's when you can't see them, even for a moment, that they unlock, then what good would pretending to see them with your eyes closed do?

[azshadowwalker]

The Angels. A great idea the first time. Increasingly nonsensical thereafter. Thanks, Moffatt. 

[Bruinsfan]

Applies to the vast majority of Moffat's ideas, IMHO.